politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A Very British Populism
Comments
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56% didn't vote Labour at the 1997 election but you would never have guessed this from the coverage at the time. It was like 60% or 70% had done so, and the remaining voters were dinosaurs.0
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I doubt your enthusiasm would be quite the same were the results of such a PR system to go against your left-Liberal desires.IanB2 said:
Which is why our voting system is pants. Look at the politicians that our antiquated adversarial system throws up, and weep - I'd take products of PR like Scotland's Sturgeon or the EU's Tusk or Barnier in a heartbeat over almost all of the Uk Cabinet. It really is grown ups versus children.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Which they would.0 -
I've done my own image analysis and can confirm the number is actually closer to eight million.YBarddCwsc said:
I don't know how many people were on the march, & I don't think it matters too much provided they were good-natured & friendly.Casino_Royale said:
I would love to see a source for that.MikeSmithson said:
But what a stupid tweet from "The Man in Seat 61" (that OGH has retweeted).
"Image analysis/Met Police now indicating closer to TWO million (have still to fact-check that)."
Actually, why not fact-check first, and then tweet ! Rather than the other way around !
Jeez.0 -
Why ? The losers are routinely ignored under FPTP in elections. Why should one referendum in 4 be different. The referendum was a binary question with a definite result.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybe partially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay?AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive so things would be different now etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.
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Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?0 -
Unless there have been 12 million deaths and desertions, you're still a long way offIanB2 said:
You need to deduct deaths and desertions from your total.AmpfieldAndy said:
5 million who never accepted the referendum result vs 17.4m who actually voted Leave. Democracy is not on your side.IanB2 said:Five million sigs will be achieved shortly
In any event, it is the largest ever Downing Street petition by some margin, and seeing the spinner continually turn round is remarkable.
Now5,000,070
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Has anyone got a graph of signatures versus time?Peter_the_Punter said:
Petition just passed 5 million. Only another 12.4 million and it will prove.....well, not a lot really.Casino_Royale said:
I would love to see a source for that.MikeSmithson said:0 -
That's not how the twatter-verse works...it's twatter first, fact check / reverse ferret later.YBarddCwsc said:
I don't know how many people were on the march, & I don't think it matters too much provided they were good-natured & friendly.Casino_Royale said:
I would love to see a source for that.MikeSmithson said:
But what a stupid tweet from "The Man in Seat 61" (that OGH has retweeted).
"Image analysis/Met Police now indicating closer to TWO million (have still to fact-check that)."
Actually, why not fact-check first, and then tweet ! Rather than the other way around !
Jeez.0 -
It's interesting that your view of when she lost it coincides with the view of the likes of Geoffrey Howe and Chris Patten.Casino_Royale said:
What, like post her election in 1975?justin124 said:
In the context of a Hung Parliament she would have been hopeless - and far too divisive.Casino_Royale said:
Thatcher was superb, and spot on.NickPalmer said:
Yes, a very unpleasant nationalist IMO, but I realise that's not a universal viewMTimT said:
By this definition, Maggie was a nationalist. Her first message to the FCO was "You are there to represent Britain to the world, not the world to Britain."
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On populism, I think in its usual sense it means "Willing to unscrupulously promise popular things that one knows are unlikely to work out". Peron is the archetype, and Chavez was another - full of reasonable intentions (though Chavez was probably more sincere) and some initial success, but ultimately discredited because the policies didn't actually work.
I wish we had her now.
What you forget is that she was a skilled politician. Very skilled.
She only lost it post GE1987.
With her domestic reform agenda and drive to complete the single market, she was arguably the Emmanuel Macron of the 1980s.0 -
Pay for a private prep school. We've already started saving, despite not having any kids yet.Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?0 -
DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref. The Scottish Independence referendum was won by promising increase in devolved powers to win over waivering nationalists and Scotland has had a nationalist government that promotes the view of the opposing side. Eurosceptics never accepted the 1975 result so we are/were not in the Euro, Schengen, the social chapter etc etc. Furthermore, any government is always on the lookout for new votes so it is rare for them to completely ignore those that didn’t vote for them and normally change their policies when they turn out to be an the kind of irredeemable clusterf**k Brexit has.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Brexit is a cluster**** partially because so many people who voted Remain have consistently sought to frustrate the result. Post the referendum, the actions of many Remain supporters have been a poor advert for British democracy and simply emphasise why they lost the referendum.0 -
Someone asked for this yesterday -- https://odileeds.org/projects/petitions/241584Casino_Royale said:
Has anyone got a graph of signatures versus time?Peter_the_Punter said:
Petition just passed 5 million. Only another 12.4 million and it will prove.....well, not a lot really.Casino_Royale said:
I would love to see a source for that.MikeSmithson said:0 -
As I said yesterday the petition and the referendum are two different things. The petition is a request to Parliament to debate something. No one is promising to respect its result.RobD said:
Unless there have been 12 million deaths and desertions, you're still a long way offIanB2 said:
You need to deduct deaths and desertions from your total.AmpfieldAndy said:
5 million who never accepted the referendum result vs 17.4m who actually voted Leave. Democracy is not on your side.IanB2 said:Five million sigs will be achieved shortly
In any event, it is the largest ever Downing Street petition by some margin, and seeing the spinner continually turn round is remarkable.
Now5,000,070
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There's one here - https://a50.mxbi.net/Casino_Royale said:
Has anyone got a graph of signatures versus time?Peter_the_Punter said:
Petition just passed 5 million. Only another 12.4 million and it will prove.....well, not a lot really.Casino_Royale said:
I would love to see a source for that.MikeSmithson said:0 -
Wait until Jezza bans private schools.MaxPB said:
Pay for a private prep school. We've already started saving, despite not having any kids yet.Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
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The key difference being that she succeeded in achieving her reforms; Macron not so much.williamglenn said:
It's interesting that your view of when she lost it coincides with the view of the likes of Geoffrey Howe and Chris Patten.Casino_Royale said:
What, like post her election in 1975?justin124 said:
In the context of a Hung Parliament she would have been hopeless - and far too divisive.Casino_Royale said:
Thatcher was superb, and spot on.NickPalmer said:
Yes, a very unpleasant nationalist IMO, but I realise that's not a universal viewMTimT said:
By this definition, Maggie was a nationalist. Her first message to the FCO was "You are there to represent Britain to the world, not the world to Britain.".
On populism, I think in its usual sense it means "Willing to unscrupulously promise popular things that one knows are unlikely to work out". Peron is the archetype, and Chavez was another - full of reasonable intentions (though Chavez was probably more sincere) and some initial success, but ultimately discredited because the policies didn't actually work.
I wish we had her now.
What you forget is that she was a skilled politician. Very skilled.
She only lost it post GE1987.
With her domestic reform agenda and drive to complete the single market, she was arguably the Emmanuel Macron of the 1980s.0 -
Move to birmingham?Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?0 -
Relax, Casino. In my experience, most kids grow up straight despite the negative influence of adults.Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
Once piece of advice I can give you concerning sex education is that it can play a great part in getting the kids out of the way so that you can have space and time for yourself. Just mention you want to talk to them about the 'facts of life' and they will scarper instantly.0 -
What has Parliament been doing these last few weeks?DougSeal said:
As I said yesterday the petition and the referendum are two different things. The petition is a request to Parliament to debate something. No one is promising to respect its result.RobD said:
Unless there have been 12 million deaths and desertions, you're still a long way offIanB2 said:
You need to deduct deaths and desertions from your total.AmpfieldAndy said:
5 million who never accepted the referendum result vs 17.4m who actually voted Leave. Democracy is not on your side.IanB2 said:Five million sigs will be achieved shortly
In any event, it is the largest ever Downing Street petition by some margin, and seeing the spinner continually turn round is remarkable.
Now5,000,070
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You have the legal right to withdraw them from school and arrange alternative education for them. Perhaps put them through a course of gay conversion therapy just to be on the safe side, if you're concerned they may be turning into woofters.Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?0 -
Private schools are also taking transgender issues more seriouslyMaxPB said:
Pay for a private prep school. We've already started saving, despite not having any kids yet.Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-353623680 -
And you can only vote once in a referendum.DougSeal said:
As I said yesterday the petition and the referendum are two different things. The petition is a request to Parliament to debate something. No one is promising to respect its result.RobD said:
Unless there have been 12 million deaths and desertions, you're still a long way offIanB2 said:
You need to deduct deaths and desertions from your total.AmpfieldAndy said:
5 million who never accepted the referendum result vs 17.4m who actually voted Leave. Democracy is not on your side.IanB2 said:Five million sigs will be achieved shortly
In any event, it is the largest ever Downing Street petition by some margin, and seeing the spinner continually turn round is remarkable.
Now5,000,070
0 -
Yep the argument against the referendum could basically invalidate all general elections since 1931...AndyJS said:56% didn't vote Labour at the 1997 election but you would never have guessed this from the coverage at the time. It was like 60% or 70% had done so, and the remaining voters were dinosaurs.
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If that’s your opinion, that’s your opinion but it is not our electoral system and has never been.IanB2 said:
Which is why our voting system is pants. Look at the politicians that our antiquated adversarial system throws up, and weep - I'd take products of PR like Scotland's Sturgeon or the EU's Tusk or Barnier in a heartbeat over almost all of the Uk Cabinet. It really is grown ups versus children.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
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Hmm. Perhaps better to engage specialists. My information is that the private education system has not invariably been immune from the contagion of sexual deviancy.MaxPB said:
Pay for a private prep school. We've already started saving, despite not having any kids yet.Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
Still - you pays your money and you takes your choice.0 -
Yeah, the same people would be standing...AmpfieldAndy said:
If that’s your opinion, that’s your opinion but it is not our electoral system and has never been.IanB2 said:
Which is why our voting system is pants. Look at the politicians that our antiquated adversarial system throws up, and weep - I'd take products of PR like Scotland's Sturgeon or the EU's Tusk or Barnier in a heartbeat over almost all of the Uk Cabinet. It really is grown ups versus children.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
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I have no issues with education on homosexuality.FrancisUrquhart said:
Move to birmingham?Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
But education on gender purely being a social choice I consider madness.0 -
I don't know about that.....TudorRose said:
And you can only vote once in a referendum.DougSeal said:
As I said yesterday the petition and the referendum are two different things. The petition is a request to Parliament to debate something. No one is promising to respect its result.RobD said:
Unless there have been 12 million deaths and desertions, you're still a long way offIanB2 said:
You need to deduct deaths and desertions from your total.AmpfieldAndy said:
5 million who never accepted the referendum result vs 17.4m who actually voted Leave. Democracy is not on your side.IanB2 said:Five million sigs will be achieved shortly
In any event, it is the largest ever Downing Street petition by some margin, and seeing the spinner continually turn round is remarkable.
Now5,000,070
0 -
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Are you suggesting that minorities should just shut up and accept it when they think the (slight) majority is in the wrong? If so you don’t really believe in democracy but a majoritarian tyranny. In a democracy all have not only the right but the duty to speak up for what they think is correct, however unfashionable, and anyone who says otherwise does not believe in democracy.AmpfieldAndy said:DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref. The Scottish Independence referendum was won by promising increase in devolved powers to win over waivering nationalists and Scotland has had a nationalist government that promotes the view of the opposing side. Eurosceptics never accepted the 1975 result so we are/were not in the Euro, Schengen, the social chapter etc etc. Furthermore, any government is always on the lookout for new votes so it is rare for them to completely ignore those that didn’t vote for them and normally change their policies when they turn out to be an the kind of irredeemable clusterf**k Brexit has.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Brexit is a cluster**** partially because so many people who voted Remain have consistently sought to frustrate the result. Post the referendum, the actions of many Remain supporters have been a poor advert for British democracy and simply emphasise why they lost the referendum.
Theresa May is not a remainer. She constantly moaned as Home Secretary about how freedom of movement would not allow her to bring down the immigration figures. She may have supported Remain before the referendum but it was half hearted, low key and tactical support. Like her subsequent promises it meant little.
Brexiteers own this mess. All they have to do is vote for the deal and we will be out. The deal means we will have left the EU. The type of leaving was not on the ballot paper and neither leave campaign suggested we would leave without a deal - indeed the official Vote Leave campaign said quite the opposite.0 -
Prat.Chris said:
You have the legal right to withdraw them from school and arrange alternative education for them. Perhaps put them through a course of gay conversion therapy just to be on the safe side, if you're concerned they may be turning into woofters.Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?0 -
It of course takes 30 seconds to sign that petition - potentially 30 minutes to actually go out and vote depending on how close your polling station is (or to arrange a postal vote).TudorRose said:
And you can only vote once in a referendum.DougSeal said:
As I said yesterday the petition and the referendum are two different things. The petition is a request to Parliament to debate something. No one is promising to respect its result.RobD said:
Unless there have been 12 million deaths and desertions, you're still a long way offIanB2 said:
You need to deduct deaths and desertions from your total.AmpfieldAndy said:
5 million who never accepted the referendum result vs 17.4m who actually voted Leave. Democracy is not on your side.IanB2 said:Five million sigs will be achieved shortly
In any event, it is the largest ever Downing Street petition by some margin, and seeing the spinner continually turn round is remarkable.
Now5,000,070
Perhaps they were just too busy when it mattered! And of course 61 million Brits still haven't found the time to spare 30 seconds to sign the thing!0 -
In fact it was extremely good-natured, friendly, and to my huge relief, safe. My biggest takeaway from it was that the crowd looked and sounded just the type that Mrs May should be looking to for support. I should say it was predominantly white, middle-class and well-educated.YBarddCwsc said:
I don't know how many people were on the march, & I don't think it matters too much provided they were good-natured & friendly.Casino_Royale said:
I would love to see a source for that.MikeSmithson said:
But what a stupid tweet from "The Man in Seat 61" (that OGH has retweeted).
"Image analysis/Met Police now indicating closer to TWO million (have still to fact-check that)."
Actually, why not fact-check first, and then tweet ! Rather than the other way around !
Jeez.
Now why would a Conservative PM not have much in common with them?0 -
Bristol West is basically the University of Bristol. It has behaved in much the same way as Cambridge, swinging to the Lib Dems (the Iraq War) and then swinging Labour (after the Coalition) and then further to Labour (as Corby cannily scooped up all the Remainers).FrancisUrquhart said:
Bristol west these days makes Islington look centrist....probably because most of the inhabitants have relocated from there.
It will be interesting to see what happens to these seats when Corby removes University tuition fees. The income of the Universities will surely go down.
0 -
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Well a good chunk of them keep voting down the WA.DougSeal said:
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Are you suggesting that minorities should just shut up and accept it when they think the (slight) majority is in the wrong? If so you don’t really believe in democracy but a majoritarian tyranny. In a democracy all have not only the right but the duty to speak up for what they think is correct, however unfashionable, and anyone who says otherwise does not believe in democracy.AmpfieldAndy said:DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref. The Scottish Independence referendum was won by promising increase in devolved powers to win over waivering nationalists and Scotland has had a nationalist government that promotes the view of the opposing side. Eurosceptics never accepted the 1975 result so we are/were not in the Euro, Schengen, the social chapter etc etc. Furthermore, any government is always on the lookout for new votes so it is rare for them to completely ignore those that didn’t vote for them and normally change their policies when they turn out to be an the kind of irredeemable clusterf**k Brexit has.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Brexit is a cluster**** partially because so many people who voted Remain have consistently sought to frustrate the result. Post the referendum, the actions of many Remain supporters have been a poor advert for British democracy and simply emphasise why they lost the referendum.
Theresa May is not a remainer. She constantly moaned as Home Secretary about how freedom of movement would not allow her to bring down the immigration figures. She may have supported Remain before the referendum but it was half hearted, low key and tactical support. Like her subsequent promises it meant little.
Brexiteers own this mess. All they have to do is vote for the deal and we will be out. The deal means we will have left the EU. The type of leaving was not on the ballot paper and neither leave campaign suggested we would leave without a deal - indeed the official Vote Leave campaign said quite the opposite. 0 -
Other than the students (most of which are children of upper middle class professionals), it is packed with upper middle class professionals that have relocated out of London.YBarddCwsc said:
Bristol West is basically the University of Bristol. It has behaved in much the same way as Cambridge, swinging to the Lib Dems (the Iraq War) and then swinging Labour (after the Coalition) and then further to Labour (as Corby cannily scooped up all the Remainers).FrancisUrquhart said:
Bristol west these days makes Islington look centrist....probably because most of the inhabitants have relocated from there.
It will be interesting to see what happens to these seats when Corby removes University tuition fees. The income of the Universities will surely go down.
The Maomentum nutters have already got a great idea to screw more money out of them, charge council tax on student accommodation, paid for by the university....which of course the university won't pass on to students.0 -
Ah, mate. Give it a rest.williamglenn said:
It's interesting that your view of when she lost it coincides with the view of the likes of Geoffrey Howe and Chris Patten.Casino_Royale said:
What, like post her election in 1975?justin124 said:
In the context of a Hung Parliament she would have been hopeless - and far too divisive.Casino_Royale said:
Thatcher was superb, and spot on.NickPalmer said:
Yes, a very unpleasant nationalist IMO, but I realise that's not a universal viewMTimT said:
By this definition, Maggie was a nationalist. Her first message to the FCO was "You are there to represent Britain to the world, not the world to Britain.".
On populism, I think in its usual sense it means "Willing to unscrupulously promise popular things that one knows are unlikely to work out". Peron is the archetype, and Chavez was another - full of reasonable intentions (though Chavez was probably more sincere) and some initial success, but ultimately discredited because the policies didn't actually work.
I wish we had her now.
What you forget is that she was a skilled politician. Very skilled.
She only lost it post GE1987.
With her domestic reform agenda and drive to complete the single market, she was arguably the Emmanuel Macron of the 1980s.
You're like a televangelist for Verhofstadht.0 -
In elections we get to rethink things every five years, *and* there is a mechanism for shortening that time when it becomes apparent to enough MPs that the most recent decision was a clusterfuck. Why should referendums be any different?AmpfieldAndy said:
Why ? The losers are routinely ignored under FPTP in elections. Why should one referendum in 4 be different. The referendum was a binary question with a definite result.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybe partially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay?AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive so things would be different now etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.0 -
Brighton.HYUFD said:
Private schools are also taking transgender issues more seriouslyMaxPB said:
Pay for a private prep school. We've already started saving, despite not having any kids yet.Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-353623680 -
Yes but that wouldn’t matter a jot if the leavers voted for it.RobD said:
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Well a good chunk of them keep voting down the WA.DougSeal said:
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Are you suggesting that minorities should just shut up and accept it when they think the (slight) majority is in the wrong? If so you don’t really believe in democracy but a majoritarian tyranny. In a democracy all have not only the right but the duty to speak up for what they think is correct, however unfashionable, and anyone who says otherwise does not believe in democracy.AmpfieldAndy said:DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref. The Scottish Independence referendum was won by promising increase in devolved powers to win over waivering nationalists and Scotland has had a nationalist government that promotes the view of the opposing side. Eurosceptics never accepted the 1975 result so we are/were not in the Euro, Schengen, the social chapter etc etc. Furthermore, any government is always on the lookout for new votes so it is rare for them to completely ignore those that didn’t vote for them and normally change their policies when they turn out to be an the kind of irredeemable clusterf**k Brexit has.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Brexit is a cluster**** partially because so many people who voted Remain have consistently sought to frustrate the result. Post the referendum, the actions of many Remain supporters have been a poor advert for British democracy and simply emphasise why they lost the referendum.
Theresa May is not a remainer. She constantly moaned as Home Secretary about how freedom of movement would not allow her to bring down the immigration figures. She may have supported Remain before the referendum but it was half hearted, low key and tactical support. Like her subsequent promises it meant little.
Brexiteers own this mess. All they have to do is vote for the deal and we will be out. The deal means we will have left the EU. The type of leaving was not on the ballot paper and neither leave campaign suggested we would leave without a deal - indeed the official Vote Leave campaign said quite the opposite.0 -
Also I was surprised to feel not particularly old. I was expecting to be the old codger in the crowd.Peter_the_Punter said:
In fact it was extremely good-natured, friendly, and to my huge relief, safe. My biggest takeaway from it was that the crowd looked and sounded just the type that Mrs May should be looking to for support. I should say it was predominantly white, middle-class and well-educated.YBarddCwsc said:
I don't know how many people were on the march, & I don't think it matters too much provided they were good-natured & friendly.Casino_Royale said:
I would love to see a source for that.MikeSmithson said:
But what a stupid tweet from "The Man in Seat 61" (that OGH has retweeted).
"Image analysis/Met Police now indicating closer to TWO million (have still to fact-check that)."
Actually, why not fact-check first, and then tweet ! Rather than the other way around !
Jeez.
Now why would a Conservative PM not have much in common with them?0 -
But they all aren't, hence the frustration bit.DougSeal said:
Yes but that wouldn’t matter a jot if the leavers voted for it.RobD said:
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Well a good chunk of them keep voting down the WA.DougSeal said:
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Are you suggesting that minorities should just shut up and accept it when they think the (slight) majority is in the wrong? If so you don’t really believe in democracy but a majoritarian tyranny. In a democracy all have not only the right but the duty to speak up for what they think is correct, however unfashionable, and anyone who says otherwise does not believe in democracy.AmpfieldAndy said:DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref. The Scottish Independence referendum was won by promising increase in devolved powers to win over waivering nationalists and Scotland has had a nationalist government that promotes the view of the opposing side. Eurosceptics never accepted the 1975 result so we are/were not in the Euro, Schengen, the social chapter etc etc. Furthermore, any government is always on the lookout for new votes so it is rare for them to completely ignore those that didn’t vote for them and normally change their policies when they turn out to be an the kind of irredeemable clusterf**k Brexit has.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Brexit is a cluster**** partially because so many people who voted Remain have consistently sought to frustrate the result. Post the referendum, the actions of many Remain supporters have been a poor advert for British democracy and simply emphasise why they lost the referendum.
Theresa May is not a remainer. She constantly moaned as Home Secretary about how freedom of movement would not allow her to bring down the immigration figures. She may have supported Remain before the referendum but it was half hearted, low key and tactical support. Like her subsequent promises it meant little.
Brexiteers own this mess. All they have to do is vote for the deal and we will be out. The deal means we will have left the EU. The type of leaving was not on the ballot paper and neither leave campaign suggested we would leave without a deal - indeed the official Vote Leave campaign said quite the opposite.0 -
I’m not sure gender neutrality and trans issues are all that closely related. Gender neutrality starts with not using terms like ‘fireman’!HYUFD said:
Private schools are also taking transgender issues more seriouslyMaxPB said:
Pay for a private prep school. We've already started saving, despite not having any kids yet.Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-353623680 -
“Brexiteers own this mess”. Why - because a Remain voting PM has personally taken charge of the Brexit negotiations with a civil servant negotiator reporting directly to her or because Remain supporting Tory MPs refused to honour their own election manifesto. Seems like both are giant non sequiturs to me.DougSeal said:
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Are you suggesting that minorities should just shut up and accept it when they think the (slight) majority is in the wrong? If so you don’t really believe in democracy but a majoritarian tyranny. In a democracy all have not only the right but the duty to speak up for what they think is correct, however unfashionable, and anyone who says otherwise does not believe in democracy.AmpfieldAndy said:DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref. The Scottish Independence referendum was won by promising increase in devolved powers to win over waivering nationalists and Scotland has had a nationalist government that promotes the view of the opposing side. Eurosceptics never accepted the 1975 result so we are/were not in the Euro, Schengen, the social chapter etc etc. Furthermore, any government is always on the lookout for new votes so it is rare for them to completely ignore those that didn’t vote for them and normally change their policies when they turn out to be an the kind of irredeemable clusterf**k Brexit has.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Brexit is a cluster**** partially because so many people who voted Remain have consistently sought to frustrate the result. Post the referendum, the actions of many Remain supporters have been a poor advert for British democracy and simply emphasise why they lost the referendum.
Theresa May is not a remainer. She constantly moaned as Home Secretary about how freedom of movement would not allow her to bring down the immigration figures. She may have supported Remain before the referendum but it was half hearted, low key and tactical support. Like her subsequent promises it meant little.
Brexiteers own this mess. All they have to do is vote for the deal and we will be out. The deal means we will have left the EU. The type of leaving was not on the ballot paper and neither leave campaign suggested we would leave without a deal - indeed the official Vote Leave campaign said quite the opposite.0 -
I have only just thought of this so feel free to shoot holes in the idea...DougSeal said:
We have a situation where the members of our sovereign body have been disconnected from the executive and it can’t go on. The Government is supposed to be formed by the individual with the confidence of Parliament. Except now, in both major parties, there is an assumption instead that it will be formed by the person who has the confidence of the membership of their respective parties outside Parliament. Further, because of the FTPA it’s harder for Parliament to remove the Government, and the consequences of it voting down signature legislation are the less. The law of unintended consequences has resulted in direct election of party leaders and the FTPA breaking the constitution. The 2016 referendum itself was Cameron’s effort to bypass his Parliamentary party to get a result from the electorate he wanted instead.kle4 said:
Yes they can, they choose not to. If it is a plan which is about a temporary situation it is easy to explain why members are not involved.Mortimer said:
The growth of calling public figures ‘stupid’ or ‘an idiot’ fails to appreciate that their public pronouncements always have multiple contexts, rather than existing in an intellectual vacuum.kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
Let me give you a little context for comments like this: Tory associations need to have AGMS by the end of March; much recent posturing is inextricably linked to this. MPs can’t stand up and say ‘we won’t give you a vote in this leadership election either’.
The immediate practical outcome is that it is hard to see either major parliamentary party seeking to change leaders for fear of what the loons that form the membership of both will come up with.
How about reversing the process for electing a party leader
Any MP (say with a proposer / seconder) can stand
The full list goes to the members who use AV to select 4-5 candidates
Those candidates are winnowed down to 1 chosen by MPs
0 -
Yes, the bar for referring a petition to Parliament is set absurdly low at 10,000. I would suggest it should be a clear majority - say round about 31 million.brendan16 said:
It of course takes 30 seconds to sign that petition - potentially 30 minutes to actually go out and vote depending on how close your polling station is (or to arrange a postal vote).TudorRose said:
And you can only vote once in a referendum.DougSeal said:
As I said yesterday the petition and the referendum are two different things. The petition is a request to Parliament to debate something. No one is promising to respect its result.RobD said:
Unless there have been 12 million deaths and desertions, you're still a long way offIanB2 said:
You need to deduct deaths and desertions from your total.AmpfieldAndy said:
5 million who never accepted the referendum result vs 17.4m who actually voted Leave. Democracy is not on your side.IanB2 said:Five million sigs will be achieved shortly
In any event, it is the largest ever Downing Street petition by some margin, and seeing the spinner continually turn round is remarkable.
Now5,000,070
Perhaps they were just too busy when it mattered! And of course 61 million Brits still haven't found the time to spare 30 seconds to sign the thing!
By the way, I was at the March yesterday and despite talking to a number of people did not detect any interlopers from N.Korea, The Falklands of The Vatican City. I did however identify a Yorkshireman (no doubt sponsored by Vladimir, although he wouldn't admit it.)0 -
I have never understood why students are exempt from paying council tax anyway as a class. Some can be quite wealthy - including fee paying foreign student children of multi millionaires paying full fees.FrancisUrquhart said:
Other than the students (most of which are children of upper middle class professionals), it is packed with upper middle class professionals that have relocated out of London.YBarddCwsc said:
Bristol West is basically the University of Bristol. It has behaved in much the same way as Cambridge, swinging to the Lib Dems (the Iraq War) and then swinging Labour (after the Coalition) and then further to Labour (as Corby cannily scooped up all the Remainers).FrancisUrquhart said:
Bristol west these days makes Islington look centrist....probably because most of the inhabitants have relocated from there.
It will be interesting to see what happens to these seats when Corby removes University tuition fees. The income of the Universities will surely go down.
The Maomentum nutters have already got a great idea to screw more money out of them, charge council tax on student accommodation, paid for by the university....which of course the university won't pass on to students.
Why isn't council tax benefit means tested for students as it is for every other adult over 18? Students use council services too - and an area with lots of students loses revenue as a result. Even the very poorest people below pension age (including in some cases the disabled) now have to pay up to 30% of their council tax in some areas since this benefit was localised in 2013 - but students pay nothing no matter how wealthy they are?
0 -
We've stolen their future.kjh said:
Also I was surprised to feel not particularly old. I was expecting to be the old codger in the crowd.Peter_the_Punter said:
In fact it was extremely good-natured, friendly, and to my huge relief, safe. My biggest takeaway from it was that the crowd looked and sounded just the type that Mrs May should be looking to for support. I should say it was predominantly white, middle-class and well-educated.YBarddCwsc said:
I don't know how many people were on the march, & I don't think it matters too much provided they were good-natured & friendly.Casino_Royale said:
I would love to see a source for that.MikeSmithson said:
But what a stupid tweet from "The Man in Seat 61" (that OGH has retweeted).
"Image analysis/Met Police now indicating closer to TWO million (have still to fact-check that)."
Actually, why not fact-check first, and then tweet ! Rather than the other way around !
Jeez.
Now why would a Conservative PM not have much in common with them?0 -
And yet that same portion of the population have supported the removal of rights in all sorts of areas - guns as you mention, smoking, fox hunting and a whole raft of other minor things which some people feel made their life more enjoyable.DougSeal said:The issue is less populism as majoritarianism. Most liberal democracies have a mechanism whereby it is very difficult to overturn the rights of a minority group. It is conceivable that there might be popular majorities to overturn any aspect of the the US Bill of Rights - but they would find it very hard to do so. My concern in the UK is that there is increasingly an assumption that a bare majority can do anything It wants and damn the consequences. Majoritarianism also has a habit of demonising the minority with less than desirable results.
Most remainers I know are most pissed off about their own loss of FOM - indeed it was very much that argument that the Supreme Court agreed with in Miller. They might never have used it but it was nice to know it was there, like the freedom of the press or that to own a gun for some Americans. Leaving the EU with less loss of the personal rights that came with it would be less objectionable in my view.
Now as it happens, on every one of those things I just mentioned I would, if asked my personal view, be on the side of those who object to them. I would also be on the side of favouring FoM. But we do live in a country whereby the majoritism you talk about is fundamental to our political and legal system. It is just that most of the time you are on the side of those in favour of limiting rights rather than those who are having the rights taken away.0 -
If only - however the draft policy is merely to remove their 'charitable' status and even that will probably be deemed too radical and dropped.GIN1138 said:Wait until Jezza bans private schools.
One messes with the peculiar English predilection for private schools at one's peril.0 -
A lady in her Seventies collapsed yesterday on the march, and a call went across the crowd, so Mrs Foxy and I responded. We checked her out and it she came round quickly. Probably vaso-vagal from overdoing her angina meds. We called over the paramedics to take over. She insisted she wanted to keep marching though! Bulldog spirit indeed.kjh said:
Also I was surprised to feel not particularly old. I was expecting to be the old codger in the crowd.Peter_the_Punter said:
In fact it was extremely good-natured, friendly, and to my huge relief, safe. My biggest takeaway from it was that the crowd looked and sounded just the type that Mrs May should be looking to for support. I should say it was predominantly white, middle-class and well-educated.YBarddCwsc said:
I don't know how many people were on the march, & I don't think it matters too much provided they were good-natured & friendly.Casino_Royale said:
I would love to see a source for that.MikeSmithson said:
But what a stupid tweet from "The Man in Seat 61" (that OGH has retweeted).
"Image analysis/Met Police now indicating closer to TWO million (have still to fact-check that)."
Actually, why not fact-check first, and then tweet ! Rather than the other way around !
Jeez.
Now why would a Conservative PM not have much in common with them?
The only unpleasantness that I saw was a marcher being verbally abused by paserby in the tube station, but the idiot scarpered quickly.0 -
Why won't the University pass the Council Tax on to the students ?FrancisUrquhart said:
Other than the students (most of which are children of upper middle class professionals), it is packed with upper middle class professionals that have relocated out of London.YBarddCwsc said:
Bristol West is basically the University of Bristol. It has behaved in much the same way as Cambridge, swinging to the Lib Dems (the Iraq War) and then swinging Labour (after the Coalition) and then further to Labour (as Corby cannily scooped up all the Remainers).FrancisUrquhart said:
Bristol west these days makes Islington look centrist....probably because most of the inhabitants have relocated from there.
It will be interesting to see what happens to these seats when Corby removes University tuition fees. The income of the Universities will surely go down.
The Maomentum nutters have already got a great idea to screw more money out of them, charge council tax on student accommodation, paid for by the university....which of course the university won't pass on to students.
-----------
I remember OGH posting (when the LibDems were trying to justify the introduction of tuition fees) that the University seats would be grateful as staff, lecturers, etc would see some of the influx of money (if not in wages but in improved working conditions).
It did not quite work out that way.
I think once tuition fees are removed, the Universities will struggle to full replace them. So, I wonder which way these seats will then swing. I suspect then OGH's prediction may come to pass.0 -
Aye, there's the rub.malcolmg said:
Unfortunately it is a million mile from current Conservatism, in fact almost complete opposite.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Exactly my thoughts DavidDavidL said:
It's an interesting viewpoint but what are the alternatives? I certainly would not want the Tory party to follow the path taken by the Republican party in the US. What policies do you want them to propose that they are not?Casino_Royale said:
(snip)Jonathan said:Casino_Royale said:
Perhaps that's what the next generation want, but for me it's very depressing. If all Conservatism means is just good stewardship of the national finances and day-to-day administration and otherwise abrogating any leadership of the national debate (and I admit, to many, that's all they want) then politics no longer holds any real interest for me.
I am a Conservative voter (or at least I have been up to now) but I don't want radical attacks on the welfare state, indeed the harshness of the reforms on disability for example offend me as does the incompetence with which UC has been introduced. I certainly don't want the equivalent of US Evangelicals having any say on social policy. I am not up for another wave of privatisations, the recent experience of private sector involvement in the provision of public services has not been a success on any measure. What do I want?
* Sound public finances and reduced government debt (as a share of GDP).
*Efficient and effective public services which are adequately funded to meet the challenges we have given to them.
*The application of our laws to all and for all. Having some of our citizens treated as second class because of "cultural sensitivity" is unacceptable.
*A society that is, so far as possible, left to get on with their own lives without politicians thinking we need new laws on everything all the time.
* A society that is compassionate about those in need.
I accept it is not the most ambitious list. One might say it is almost conservative.0 -
I was being sarcastic...the Moamentumers claim it will be the uni, who have loads of money*, that pays this, but of course we all know they will pass it on to the students.YBarddCwsc said:
Why won't the University pass the Council Tax on to the students ?FrancisUrquhart said:
Other than the students (most of which are children of upper middle class professionals), it is packed with upper middle class professionals that have relocated out of London.YBarddCwsc said:
Bristol West is basically the University of Bristol. It has behaved in much the same way as Cambridge, swinging to the Lib Dems (the Iraq War) and then swinging Labour (after the Coalition) and then further to Labour (as Corby cannily scooped up all the Remainers).FrancisUrquhart said:
Bristol west these days makes Islington look centrist....probably because most of the inhabitants have relocated from there.
It will be interesting to see what happens to these seats when Corby removes University tuition fees. The income of the Universities will surely go down.
The Maomentum nutters have already got a great idea to screw more money out of them, charge council tax on student accommodation, paid for by the university....which of course the university won't pass on to students.
-----------
I remember OGH posting (when the LibDems were trying to justify the introduction of tuition fees) that the University seats would be grateful as staff, lecturers, etc would see some of the influx of money (if not in wages but in improved working conditions).
It did not quite work out that way.
I think once tuition fees are removed, the Universities will struggle to full replace them. So, I wonder which why these seats will then swing. I suspect then OGH's prediction may come to pass.
* and of course there is of course Bristol uni have received large donations from individuals whose family were involved in the slave trade, which I am sure the right-on lot will be more than happy to play up e.g. no more "Colston" Hall.0 -
Peter_the_Punter said:
A catholic friend of mine recalls how was dragged to church by his elder sisters every Sunday afternoon throughout his childhood. He was utterly horrified to discover as an adult that whilst he had been dutifully 'worshipping' his parents were using the time and space provided to engage in 'special cuddles' :-)Casino_Royale said:
Relax, Casino. In my experience, most kids grow up straight despite the negative influence of adults.Charles said:
Fuck me.Casino_Royale said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolFoxy said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
Once piece of advice I can give you concerning sex education is that it can play a great part in getting the kids out of the way so that you can have space and time for yourself. Just mention you want to talk to them about the 'facts of life' and they will scarper instantly.0 -
Calm down, Andy. No one person or group can own a mess like Brexit.AmpfieldAndy said:
“Brexiteers own this mess”. Why - because a Remain voting PM has personally taken charge of the Brexit negotiations with a civil servant negotiator reporting directly to her or because Remain supporting Tory MPs refused to honour their own election manifesto. Seems like both are giant non sequiturs to me.DougSeal said:
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Are you suggesting that minorities should just socracy.AmpfieldAndy said:DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref. The Scottish Independence referendum was won by promising increase in devolved powers to win over waivering nationalists and Scotland has had a nationalist government that promotes the view of the opposing side. Eurosceptics never accepted the 1975 result so we are/were not in the Euro, Schengen, the social chapter etc etc. Furthermore, any government is always on the lookout for new votes so it is rare for them to completely ignore those that didn’t vote for them and normally change their policies when they turn out to be an the kind of irredeemable clusterf**k Brexit has.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Brexit is a cluster**** partially because so many people who voted Remain have consistently sought to frustrate the result. Post the referendum, the actions of many Remain supporters have been a poor advert for British democracy and simply emphasise why they lost the referendum.
Theresa May is not a remainer. She constantly moaned as Home Secretary about how freedom of movement would not allow her to bring down the immigration figures. She may have supported Remain before the referendum but it was half hearted, low key and tactical support. Like her subsequent promises it meant little.
Bredeed the official Vote Leave campaign said quite the opposite.
The general rule of thumb when allocating blame is to start at the top, with those in power, and work your way down to the plebs. So personally I would start with the EU, then the UK Government, and then so on down to the humble voters who sucked up what they were being fed without troubling to acquaint themselves properly with the subject.0 -
May negotiated an exit agreement that would see us leave the EU as required by the referendum result. All the leavers have to do is vote for that WA and we are leaving the EU. Perhaps not on the terms they wanted but the terms were not on the ballot paper. You can’t expect people who don’t want to leave the EU to facilitate it. The pro-life side lost the abortion referendum in Ireland but you can bet they will be as active as they can be in trying to limit abortion in the legislature. The Scot Nats lost the 2014 referendum but they use the legislature to get as much home rule as possible. Remainers appear to be required to just shut up and go away. That’s not democracy.AmpfieldAndy said:
“Brexiteers own this mess”. Why - because a Remain voting PM has personally taken charge of the Brexit negotiations with a civil servant negotiator reporting directly to her or because Remain supporting Tory MPs refused to honour their own election manifesto. Seems like both are giant non sequiturs to me.DougSeal said:
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Are you suggesting that minorities should just shut up and accept it when they think the (slight) majority is in the wrong? If so you don’t really believe in democracy but a majoritarian tyranny. In a democracy all have not only the right but the duty to speak up for what they think is correct, however unfashionable, and anyone who says otherwise does not believe in democracy.AmpfieldAndy said:DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Brexit is a cluster**** partially because so many people who voted Remain have consistently sought to frustrate the result. Post the referendum, the actions of many Remain supporters have been a poor advert for British democracy and simply emphasise why they lost the referendum.
Theresa May is not a remainer. She constantly moaned as Home Secretary about how freedom of movement would not allow her to bring down the immigration figures. She may have supported Remain before the referendum but it was half hearted, low key and tactical support. Like her subsequent promises it meant little.
Brexiteers own this mess. All they have to do is vote for the deal and we will be out. The deal means we will have left the EU. The type of leaving was not on the ballot paper and neither leave campaign suggested we would leave without a deal - indeed the official Vote Leave campaign said quite the opposite.0 -
Because in elections, the results are implemented before any change is considered. Why should referenda be any different.Ishmael_Z said:
In elections we get to rethink things every five years, *and* there is a mechanism for shortening that time when it becomes apparent to enough MPs that the most recent decision was a clusterfuck. Why should referendums be any different?AmpfieldAndy said:
Why ? The losers are routinely ignored under FPTP in elections. Why should one referendum in 4 be different. The referendum was a binary question with a definite result.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybe partially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay?AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive so things would be different now etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.0 -
Any white smoke seen from Chequers yet? 0
-
Gadfly said:
:-) Good for them. Bet that kid grew up straight.Peter_the_Punter said:
A catholic friend of mine recalls how was dragged to church by his elder sisters every Sunday afternoon throughout his childhood. He was utterly horrified to discover as an adult that whilst he had been dutifully 'worshipping' his parents were using the time and space provided to engage in 'special cuddles' :-)Casino_Royale said:
Relax, Casino. In my experience, most kids grow up straight despite the negative influence of adults.Charles said:
Fuck me.Casino_Royale said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolFoxy said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
Once piece of advice I can give you concerning sex education is that it can play a great part in getting the kids out of the way so that you can have space and time for yourself. Just mention you want to talk to them about the 'facts of life' and they will scarper instantly.0 -
The University is also implicated in tobacco money (the HH Wills Physics Laboratory) !FrancisUrquhart said:
I was being sarcastic...the Moamentumers claim it will be the uni, who have loads of money*, that pays this, but of course we all know they will pass it on to the students.
* and of course there is of course Bristol uni have received large donations from individuals whose family were involved in the slave trade, which I am sure the right-on lot will be more than happy to play up.0 -
Yet it was the nutters in the ERG that voted down the WA that would see us actually leave the EU.AmpfieldAndy said:
“Brexiteers own this mess”. Why - because a Remain voting PM has personally taken charge of the Brexit negotiations with a civil servant negotiator reporting directly to her or because Remain supporting Tory MPs refused to honour their own election manifesto. Seems like both are giant non sequiturs to me.DougSeal said:
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Are you suggesting that minorities should just shut up and accept it when they think the (slight) majority is in the wrong? If so you don’t really believe in democracy but a majoritarian tyranny. In a democracy all have not only the right but the duty to speak up for what they think is correct, however unfashionable, and anyone who says otherwise does not believe in democracy.AmpfieldAndy said:DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref. The Scottish Independence referendum was won by promising increase in devolved powers to win over waivering nationalists and Scotland has had a nationalist government that promotes the view of the opposing side. Eurosceptics never accepted the 1975 result so we are/were not in the Euro, Schengen, the social chapter etc etc. Furthermore, any government is always on the lookout for new votes so it is rare for them to completely ignore those that didn’t vote for them and normally change their policies when they turn out to be an the kind of irredeemable clusterf**k Brexit has.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Brexit is a cluster**** partially because so many people who voted Remain have consistently sought to frustrate the result. Post the referendum, the actions of many Remain supporters have been a poor advert for British democracy and simply emphasise why they lost the referendum.
Theresa May is not a remainer. She constantly moaned as Home Secretary about how freedom of movement would not allow her to bring down the immigration figures. She may have supported Remain before the referendum but it was half hearted, low key and tactical support. Like her subsequent promises it meant little.
Brexiteers own this mess. All they have to do is vote for the deal and we will be out. The deal means we will have left the EU. The type of leaving was not on the ballot paper and neither leave campaign suggested we would leave without a deal - indeed the official Vote Leave campaign said quite the opposite.0 -
Disgraceful...shut the place down...YBarddCwsc said:
The University is also implicated in tobacco money (the HH Wills Physics Laboratory) !FrancisUrquhart said:
I was being sarcastic...the Moamentumers claim it will be the uni, who have loads of money*, that pays this, but of course we all know they will pass it on to the students.
* and of course there is of course Bristol uni have received large donations from individuals whose family were involved in the slave trade, which I am sure the right-on lot will be more than happy to play up.0 -
And why should anybody use a latin plural when writing in English? Grrr........AmpfieldAndy said:
Because in elections, the results are implemented before any change is considered. Why should referenda be any different.Ishmael_Z said:
In elections we get to rethink things every five years, *and* there is a mechanism for shortening that time when it becomes apparent to enough MPs that the most recent decision was a clusterfuck. Why should referendums be any different?AmpfieldAndy said:
Why ? The losers are routinely ignored under FPTP in elections. Why should one referendum in 4 be different. The referendum was a binary question with a definite result.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybe partially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay?AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive so things would be different now etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.0 -
Good Post.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet that same portion of the population have supported the removal of rights in all sorts of areas - guns as you mention, smoking, fox hunting and a whole raft of other minor things which some people feel made their life more enjoyable.DougSeal said:The issue is less populism as majoritarianism. Most liberal democracies have a mechanism whereby it is very difficult to overturn the rights of a minority group. It is conceivable that there might be popular majorities to overturn any aspect of the the US Bill of Rights - but they would find it very hard to do so. My concern in the UK is that there is increasingly an assumption that a bare majority can do anything It wants and damn the consequences. Majoritarianism also has a habit of demonising the minority with less than desirable results.
Most remainers I know are most pissed off about their own loss of FOM - indeed it was very much that argument that the Supreme Court agreed with in Miller. They might never have used it but it was nice to know it was there, like the freedom of the press or that to own a gun for some Americans. Leaving the EU with less loss of the personal rights that came with it would be less objectionable in my view.
Now as it happens, on every one of those things I just mentioned I would, if asked my personal view, be on the side of those who object to them. I would also be on the side of favouring FoM. But we do live in a country whereby the majoritism you talk about is fundamental to our political and legal system. It is just that most of the time you are on the side of those in favour of limiting rights rather than those who are having the rights taken away.0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
Mr. Gin, I will not be surprised if this coup comes to nothing.
Should've axed May after the election. That may've been a forgivable error, obvious only with hindsight, but the failure to toss the mad captain overboard a few months ago was not.0 -
They don't want to frighten everyone off too early.kinabalu said:
If only - however the draft policy is merely to remove their 'charitable' status and even that will probably be deemed too radical and dropped.GIN1138 said:Wait until Jezza bans private schools.
One messes with the peculiar English predilection for private schools at one's peril.
Banning private schools, house and land confiscations and seizure of all assess over £1m will be "second term" projects... 0 -
Maybe the petition is cutting through:
"Hammond says campaign for second referendum is 'perfectly coherent' and 'deserves to be considered’
'It’s a coherent proposition And it deserves to be considered along with the other proposals'"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-deal-philip-hammond-second-referendum-theresa-may-a8837356.html0 -
Gadfly said:
I think that's what many parents hope for from Sunday school, amongst other things.Peter_the_Punter said:
A catholic friend of mine recalls how was dragged to church by his elder sisters every Sunday afternoon throughout his childhood. He was utterly horrified to discover as an adult that whilst he had been dutifully 'worshipping' his parents were using the time and space provided to engage in 'special cuddles' :-)Casino_Royale said:
Relax, Casino. In my experience, most kids grow up straight despite the negative influence of adults.Charles said:
Fuck me.Casino_Royale said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolFoxy said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
Once piece of advice I can give you concerning sex education is that it can play a great part in getting the kids out of the way so that you can have space and time for yourself. Just mention you want to talk to them about the 'facts of life' and they will scarper instantly.0 -
I'm on record as saying May needs to go the morning after the election!Morris_Dancer said:Good afternoon, everyone.
Mr. Gin, I will not be surprised if this coup comes to nothing.
Should've axed May after the election. That may've been a forgivable error, obvious only with hindsight, but the failure to toss the mad captain overboard a few months ago was not. 0 -
There was a promise to devolve more powers also, but I think Westminster has not delivered these.DougSeal said:
A sort of partial independence WAS the result of the Scottish Independence referendum. It was “the vow” that got No over the line when it looked a bit dicey. I may be wrong but I think that the Scottish Parliament has more devolved powers than any similar assembly in the world.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybepartially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.0 -
Well anything can be "considered" - In fact:AndyJS said:Maybe the petition is cutting through:
"Hammond says campaign for second referendum is 'perfectly coherent' and 'deserves to be considered’
'It’s a coherent proposition And it deserves to be considered along with the other proposals'"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-deal-philip-hammond-second-referendum-theresa-may-a8837356.html
OK considered and not happening!
Next! 0 -
And not implementing the results of the referendum, which both major parties campaigned to implement in the 2017 GE is democracy at work in your opinion is it ?DougSeal said:
May negotiated an exit agreement that would see us leave the EU as required by the referendum result. All the leavers have to do is vote for that WA and we are leaving the EU. Perhaps not on the terms they wanted but the terms were not on the ballot paper. You can’t expect people who don’t want to leave the EU to facilitate it. The pro-life side lost the abortion referendum in Ireland but you can bet they will be as active as they can be in trying to limit abortion in the legislature. The Scot Nats lost the 2014 referendum but they use the legislature to get as much home rule as possible. Remainers appear to be required to just shut up and go away. That’s not democracy.AmpfieldAndy said:
“Brexiteers own this mess”. Why - because a Remain voting PM has personally taken charge of the Brexit negotiations with a civil servant negotiator reporting directly to her or because Remain supporting Tory MPs refused to honour their own election manifesto. Seems like both are giant non sequiturs to me.DougSeal said:
Brexiteers own this mess. All they have to do is vote for the deal and we will be out. The deal means we will have left the EU. The type of leaving was not on the ballot paper and neither leave campaign suggested we would leave without a deal - indeed the official Vote Leave campaign said quite the opposite.AmpfieldAndy said:DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Brexit is a cluster**** partially because so many people who voted Remain have consistently sought to frustrate the result. Post the referendum, the actions of many Remain supporters have been a poor advert for British democracy and simply emphasise why they lost the referendum.0 -
Better than what we have now to be sure. I’d prefer we went back to what we traditionally had, and what they have in the US Congress, that MPs have the sole decision on who they want to have lead them in Parliament. They would then be solely responsible to their constituents as a whole for that choice. I really don’t like the disproportionate influence a small number of politically engaged people have on our politics at the moment.Charles said:
I have only just thought of this so feel free to shoot holes in the idea...DougSeal said:
We have a situation where the members of our sovereign body have been disconnected from the executive and it can’t go on. The Government is supposed to be formed by the individual with the confidence of Parliament. Except now, in both major parties, there is an assumption instead that it will be formed by the person who has the confidence of the membership of their respective parties outside Parliament. Further, because of the FTPA it’s harder for Parliament to remove the Government, and the consequences of it voting down signature legislation are the less. The law of unintended consequences has resulted in direct election of party leaders and the FTPA breaking the constitution. The 2016 referendum itself was Cameron’s effort to bypass his Parliamentary party to get a result from the electorate he wanted instead.kle4 said:
Yes they can, they choose not to. If it is a plan which is about a temporary situation it is easy to explain why members are not involved.Mortimer said:kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
The immediate practical outcome is that it is hard to see either major parliamentary party seeking to change leaders for fear of what the loons that form the membership of both will come up with.
How about reversing the process for electing a party leader
Any MP (say with a proposer / seconder) can stand
The full list goes to the members who use AV to select 4-5 candidates
Those candidates are winnowed down to 1 chosen by MPs0 -
Cutting through? Wasn't Hammond always a Remainer, albeit a faithful cabinet member?AndyJS said:Maybe the petition is cutting through:
"Hammond says campaign for second referendum is 'perfectly coherent' and 'deserves to be considered’
'It’s a coherent proposition And it deserves to be considered along with the other proposals'"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-deal-philip-hammond-second-referendum-theresa-may-a8837356.html0 -
A superb day here. Taken the dog for a decent walk on Dartmoor in gorgeous pring sunshine - this time last year we were snowed in.
Do we have a new PM yet?0 -
The petition is for unilateral revocation.AndyJS said:Maybe the petition is cutting through:
"Hammond says campaign for second referendum is 'perfectly coherent' and 'deserves to be considered’
'It’s a coherent proposition And it deserves to be considered along with the other proposals'"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-deal-philip-hammond-second-referendum-theresa-may-a8837356.html0 -
He also has a bit of a history for saying shall we can "disruptive" things when it comes to Brexit.MTimT said:
Cutting through? Wasn't Hammond always a Remainer, albeit a faithful cabinet member?AndyJS said:Maybe the petition is cutting through:
"Hammond says campaign for second referendum is 'perfectly coherent' and 'deserves to be considered’
'It’s a coherent proposition And it deserves to be considered along with the other proposals'"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-deal-philip-hammond-second-referendum-theresa-may-a8837356.html0 -
I take it, then, Peter, that you right childs as the plural, using the English form of plural, rather than the broken plural, children.Peter_the_Punter said:
And why should anybody use a latin plural when writing in English? Grrr........AmpfieldAndy said:
Because in elections, the results are implemented before any change is considered. Why should referenda be any different.Ishmael_Z said:
In elections we get to rethink things every five years, *and* there is a mechanism for shortening that time when it becomes apparent to enough MPs that the most recent decision was a clusterfuck. Why should referendums be any different?AmpfieldAndy said:
Why ? The losers are routinely ignored under FPTP in elections. Why should one referendum in 4 be different. The referendum was a binary question with a definite result.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybe partially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay?AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive so things would be different now etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.0 -
I thought there was a recent scotland act?Foxy said:
There was a promise to devolve more powers also, but I think Westminster has not delivered these.DougSeal said:
A sort of partial independence WAS the result of the Scottish Independence referendum. It was “the vow” that got No over the line when it looked a bit dicey. I may be wrong but I think that the Scottish Parliament has more devolved powers than any similar assembly in the world.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybepartially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.0 -
Mr. Punter, 'referendum' is a bit contentious when it comes to pluralisation.
However, people who say 'stadiums' instead of 'stadia' are plain wrong.
And the fact my spellchecker is underlining the correct plural is yet another sign of the wickedness and depravity of the modern world.0 -
Didn’t see anything about a backstop in the 2017 Tory manifesto myself - just a commitment to leave the CU and SM.MaxPB said:
Yet it was the nutters in the ERG that voted down the WA that would see us actually leave the EU.AmpfieldAndy said:
“Brexiteers own this mess”. Why - because a Remain voting PM has personally taken charge of the Brexit negotiations with a civil servant negotiator reporting directly to her or because Remain supporting Tory MPs refused to honour their own election manifesto. Seems like both are giant non sequiturs to me.DougSeal said:
How have they managed to frustrate the result? Are you suggesting that minorities should just shut up and accept it when they think the (slight) majority is in the wrong? If so you don’t really believe in democracy but a majoritarian tyranny. In a democracy all have not only the right but the duty to speak up for what they think is correct, however unfashionable, and anyone who says otherwise does not believe in democracyAmpfieldAndy said:DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref. The Scottish Independence referendum was won by promising increase in devolved powers to win over waivering nationalists and Scotland has had a nationalist government that promotes the view of the opposing side. Eurosceptics never accepted the 1975 result so we are/were not in the Euro, Schengen, the social chapter etc etc. Furthermore, any government is always on the lookout for new votes so it is rare for them to completely ignore those that didn’t vote for them and normally change their policies when they turn out to be an the kind of irredeemable clusterf**k Brexit has.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Brexit is a cluster**** partially because so many people who voted Remain have consistently sought to frustrate the result. Post the referendum, the actions of many Remain supporters have been a poor advert for British democracy and simply emphasise why they lost the referendum.
Brexiteers own this mess. All they have to do is vote for the deal and we will be out. The deal means we will have left the EU. The type of leaving was not on the ballot paper and neither leave campaign suggested we would leave without a deal - indeed the official Vote Leave campaign said quite the opposite.0 -
I’d assume he is trusted by both May and the Remainers to act as an interlocutor but is loyal enough to May not to cause trouble at the Chequers meeting*Richard_Tyndall said:
Damian Green seems to be out of place in that list. I thought he was a Remain supporter. I would be surprised if he has switched to No Deal.nico67 said:
Embrace no deal ! More delusional nonsense if they think MPs will allow that .williamglenn said:
(* I originally mistyped “chequers meeting” without a space. Autocorrect suggested “Anne, Queen of Great Britain” WTF?!)0 -
It would actually be pretty difficult to levy Council Tax on students, given they disproportionately reside in spaces which are not dwellings.0
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I believe the plan* was to introduce a special levy on the university on a per student basis.TheWhiteRabbit said:It would actually be pretty difficult to levy Council Tax on students, given they disproportionately reside in spaces which are not dwellings.
* by plan, I mean the nutty Maomentum document on how to squeeze loads more local taxation in Bristol, which could have some people paying £10k a year in council tax. It was basically if it moves, tax it, if it doesn't move, tax it, just tax everything, and that will bring in loads more for council spending.
It is all rather academic, as I believe most of the changes the can't be introduced without central government say-so / special local referendum.0 -
Gadfly said:
I went to "Crusaders" equivalent to Sunday School. I think my dad was watching "Star Soccer" with Peter Lorenzo of the SunPeter_the_Punter said:
A catholic friend of mine recalls how was dragged to church by his elder sisters every Sunday afternoon throughout his childhood. He was utterly horrified to discover as an adult that whilst he had been dutifully 'worshipping' his parents were using the time and space provided to engage in 'special cuddles' :-)Casino_Royale said:
Relax, Casino. In my experience, most kids grow up straight despite the negative influence of adults.Charles said:
Fuck me.Casino_Royale said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolFoxy said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
Once piece of advice I can give you concerning sex education is that it can play a great part in getting the kids out of the way so that you can have space and time for yourself. Just mention you want to talk to them about the 'facts of life' and they will scarper instantly.0 -
Or perhaps consider converting to Islam and sending your children to a faith school?Casino_Royale said:
Prat.Chris said:
You have the legal right to withdraw them from school and arrange alternative education for them. Perhaps put them through a course of gay conversion therapy just to be on the safe side, if you're concerned they may be turning into woofters.Casino_Royale said:
Fuck me.Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
How do I avoid this shit for mine?
One way of avoiding the "shit", as you call it.0 -
Best ask the PB Scots about what was promised and delivered. It does illustrate the principle of a large minority getting partial concessions.RobD said:
I thought there was a recent scotland act?Foxy said:
There was a promise to devolve more powers also, but I think Westminster has not delivered these.DougSeal said:
A sort of partial independence WAS the result of the Scottish Independence referendum. It was “the vow” that got No over the line when it looked a bit dicey. I may be wrong but I think that the Scottish Parliament has more devolved powers than any similar assembly in the world.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybepartially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.0 -
NEW THREAD
0 -
Lol! Even as I typed that post I knew you would be onto me like a shot, MD.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Punter, 'referendum' is a bit contentious when it comes to pluralisation.
However, people who say 'stadiums' instead of 'stadia' are plain wrong.
And the fact my spellchecker is underlining the correct plural is yet another sign of the wickedness and depravity of the modern world.
For the avoidance of doubt, may I say it really doesn't bother me very much, but generally I prefer English plurals. I suppose in that sense I'm a traditional Brit, and less of your Johnny Foreigner, in which case do you excuse me for marching yesterday? :-)0 -
Not difficult at all really - you just treat students like anyone else!TheWhiteRabbit said:It would actually be pretty difficult to levy Council Tax on students, given they disproportionately reside in spaces which are not dwellings.
The dwelling is taxed - and the rate payable depends on occupancy. There are plenty of existing rules in place to deal with that for non students e.g. HMOs, bedsits etc. Why should students be treated differently - not working or being unable to work doesn't exempt you from council tax and doesn't give you a 100% discount automatically for anyone else bar prisoners or detained under the mental health act.
Many students live in private rented flats with lockable front doors and their own facilities - this even applies to some 'student' accommodation. Students should be treated just like any other adult over 18 - and means tested accordingly taking into account earnings and savings.
Not all students are poor - and some foreign and UK students are extremely wealthy. And they all use local services in some form.0 -
I don’t believe your premise is true. MPs (with a small number of exceptions) are trying to implement the referendum - the terms of which were to leave the EU. Revoke has no majority in Parliament. The argument is HOW to implement the referendum in terms of a deal, not whether or not to do so. The official Vote Leave campaign was very clear we would not leave without a deal, so to do so would be as big a betrayal as a straight revoke. Neither revoke nor no deal have a majority in Parliament, so the view of the body as a whole is completely consistent with the referendum.AmpfieldAndy said:
And not implementing the results of the referendum, which both major parties campaigned to implement in the 2017 GE is democracy at work in your opinion is it ?DougSeal said:
May negotiated an exit agreement that would see us leave the EU as required by the referendum result. All the leavers have to do is vote for that WA and we are leaving the EU. Perhaps not on the terms they wanted but the terms were not on the ballot paper. You can’t expect people who don’t want to leave the EU to facilitate it. The pro-life side lost the abortion referendum in Ireland but you can bet they will be as active as they can be in trying to limit abortion in the legislature. The Scot Nats lost the 2014 referendum but they use the legislature to get as much home rule as possible. Remainers appear to be required to just shut up and go away. That’s not democracy.AmpfieldAndy said:
“Brexiteers own this mess”. Why - because a Remain voting PM has personally taken charge of the Brexit negotiations with a civil servant negotiator reporting directly to her or because Remain supporting Tory MPs refused to honour their own election manifesto. Seems like both are giant non sequiturs to me.DougSeal said:
Brexiteers own this mess. All they have to do is vote for the deal and we will be out. The deal means we will have left the EU. The type of leaving was not on the ballot paper and neither leave campaign suggested we would leave without a deal - indeed the official Vote Leave campaign said quite the opposite.AmpfieldAndy said:DougSeal said:
Only really true of the AV ref.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
.0 -
Are you normally not fair???Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good point. Lazy use of an expression to be fairReggieCide said:
The use of "to be honest" always puzzles me - aren't you normally honest? Although I'm sure that this doesn't apply to you.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no idea to be honest !!!FrancisUrquhart said:
But will she have the numbers even with them?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I assume to get her deal throughFrancisUrquhart said:
Why is she talking to the nutter wing?williamglenn said:
😝0 -
Westminster has enacted them, just the SNP government does not want to take them up.Foxy said:
There was a promise to devolve more powers also, but I think Westminster has not delivered these.DougSeal said:
A sort of partial independence WAS the result of the Scottish Independence referendum. It was “the vow” that got No over the line when it looked a bit dicey. I may be wrong but I think that the Scottish Parliament has more devolved powers than any similar assembly in the world.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybepartially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14885035.snp-criticised-for-leaving-welfare-powers-with-whitehall/0 -
You're asking me to be logical, Tim? That's a bit much....MTimT said:
I take it, then, Peter, that you right childs as the plural, using the English form of plural, rather than the broken plural, children.Peter_the_Punter said:
And why should anybody use a latin plural when writing in English? Grrr........AmpfieldAndy said:
Because in elections, the results are implemented before any change is considered. Why should referenda be any different.Ishmael_Z said:
In elections we get to rethink things every five years, *and* there is a mechanism for shortening that time when it becomes apparent to enough MPs that the most recent decision was a clusterfuck. Why should referendums be any different?AmpfieldAndy said:
Why ? The losers are routinely ignored under FPTP in elections. Why should one referendum in 4 be different. The referendum was a binary question with a definite result.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybe partially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay?AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive so things would be different now etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.0 -
I think the point you're missing is that if "unilateral revocation" (what other sort is there?) has such strong support, a second referendum is likely to have even stronger support.Casino_Royale said:
The petition is for unilateral revocation.AndyJS said:Maybe the petition is cutting through:
"Hammond says campaign for second referendum is 'perfectly coherent' and 'deserves to be considered’
'It’s a coherent proposition And it deserves to be considered along with the other proposals'"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-deal-philip-hammond-second-referendum-theresa-may-a8837356.html
Sorry, maybe that's a bit of a complicated argument.0 -
If only......MarqueeMark said:A superb day here. Taken the dog for a decent walk on Dartmoor in gorgeous pring sunshine - this time last year we were snowed in.
Do we have a new PM yet?0 -
Perhaps you should have asked before claiming Westminster had failed to deliver?Foxy said:
Best ask the PB Scots about what was promised and delivered. It does illustrate the principle of a large minority getting partial concessions.RobD said:
I thought there was a recent scotland act?Foxy said:
There was a promise to devolve more powers also, but I think Westminster has not delivered these.DougSeal said:
A sort of partial independence WAS the result of the Scottish Independence referendum. It was “the vow” that got No over the line when it looked a bit dicey. I may be wrong but I think that the Scottish Parliament has more devolved powers than any similar assembly in the world.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybepartially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay.AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.0 -
How do you fell about that?Charles said:
My 7 year old is being taught about “gender neutrality” at schoolCasino_Royale said:
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.Foxy said:
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.Casino_Royale said:I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
0 -
A remainer who wouldn't release money for no deal preparations.... what a ..... chumpMTimT said:
Cutting through? Wasn't Hammond always a Remainer, albeit a faithful cabinet member?AndyJS said:Maybe the petition is cutting through:
"Hammond says campaign for second referendum is 'perfectly coherent' and 'deserves to be considered’
'It’s a coherent proposition And it deserves to be considered along with the other proposals'"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-deal-philip-hammond-second-referendum-theresa-may-a8837356.html0 -
You're not selling FPTP very well.AmpfieldAndy said:
Why ? The losers are routinely ignored under FPTP in elections. Why should one referendum in 4 be different. The referendum was a binary question with a definite result.brendan16 said:
Did anyone suggest when Yes lost the Scottish referendum by only 400,000 votes that we could maybe partially let Scotland leave the UK - 45% out perhaps? Maybe 45% of the country could go it alone - say the area to the north of the Tay?AmpfieldAndy said:Every Gov we elect with an overall majority ignores those who voted for other parties. That is fact under FPTP. Why should it be different for a referendum result when the three other referenda - Scottish Independence, AV or continuing with FPTP, staying in the EEC - also ignored those who voted for the alternatives ?
Its surely very unfair the concerns of the 45% were ignored and the entire country was forced to stay? Nearly 70% of those over 70 voted No vs only 38 per cent of 25-29 year olds - how many of the former are still alive so things would be different now etc etc ad nauseum.
Of course the difference was the vote went the 'right' way.
It also seems to result in adversarial short-termism, ignoring of those who didn't vote "the right way" and producing an infantilised political class divorced from the people they govern.
I think you intended to justify adversarial and exclusionist approaches to referendums. You've actually underlined how dysfunctional and unrepresentative is our electoral system.0
