politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The indicative votes are the right question at the wrong time
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Jesmond Dene is beautiful. A good resting place.viewcode said:@MaxPB ,
You may be interested in Mark Senior's valediction (right word?) from Mike. It's here:[1] There is also an online obituary but I can't find it...
@Casino_Royale
Plato died at home of natural causes aged 51 on 29th June 2018. Her IRL name was Phillippa She had apparently been unwell for some time, but had refused to see a doctor. @Gadfly had emailed her brother and posted[2] the info on PB on November 14th 2018. I think this was her old blog[4]. @Gadfly also paraphrased a quote from her brother, thus:
...It was such a shock to me to be called by the police. Philippa was enjoying living in her new place having moved 10 months earlier, beautiful setting and safe. She was an extremely private person really but I think could have done whatever she wanted including running the country. She always described herself as a man in a woman's body ready for any challenge and I suspect the high stress of her earlier high octane life took its toll on her health.
It was a privilege to have known her and I suspect given a few breaks she could have been a fantastic leader albeit terrifying to anyone in opposition. Our parents were the same highly intelligent no compromise people so I'm not surprised she had an effect wherever she went.
I'm trying to arrange a scattering of ashes in Jesmond Dene in Newcastle where my parents were scattered I will let you know of the date...
[1] http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/09/25/remembering-mark-senior-poster-on-pb-2004-2017/
[2] http://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/2085562#Comment_2085562
[3] http://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/2085711#Comment_2085711
[4] http://plato-says.blogspot.com/0 -
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In a way that could be a compliment - they’ve realistically shut down a second referendum and any amended deal so it’s down to 3 options.dixiedean said:It is a mark of May and her merry band of Leavers abilities, that even 2 short weeks ago, almost nobody considered Revoke a serious option.
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You could say the same about Richard Nabavi and DavidL among others.MaxPB said:
Because he's got actual talent?Casino_Royale said:On topic, and as usual, exceptionally good analysis and insight from David Herdson.
Why doesn’t No.10 hire him as an advisor?0 -
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we dont see it so much as the law, more guidelinesanother_richard said:
I get the impression inconvenient regulations get ignored in the Irelands.Alanbrooke said:
and after all the heartache of the backstop nobody in NI gives a shitAndyJS said:100,000 in Edinburgh have signed the petition, compared to 188,000 who voted Remain in the referendum.
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=2415840 -
Remainers believe in engagement, in a literal sense; Leavers in disengagement. I accept a small number of Leavers believed in the global Britain Brexit idea (and are looking pretty silly right now, given the way Brexit is inevitably turning out), but 90% is good enough as a generalisation.Alanbrooke said:
or parochial Europeans or street food sellers or brits who dont like toriesFF43 said:
Key point. The demonstrators in London are globalists, unlike Brexiteers and gilets jauneswilliamglenn said:
Rubbish. The gilets jaunes are the French equivalent of a combination of the people who trashed the City in the May Day protests and the BNP.No_Offence_Alan said:The irony is that the behaviour of the People's Vote marchers compared to the gilets jaunes just emphasises the difference between the UK and "Europe".
One of the most tedious aspects of Brexit is looking at a block of voters and saying they all think the same0 -
If you visit someone’s house, would you tell them that their decor was vulgar, their furniture fatigued and their choice in wine basic, even if it was all true?eristdoof said:
I find this extremely offensive as someone who lives in a different country that that in which I was born.Omnium said:I've just come from central London. Quite a lot of foreign accents in the mix of those protesting. I'm not entirely sure I'd be out marching if I lived in another country.
I am allowed to have an opinion and i am allowed to express that opinion.
Nobody is saying foreign nationals shouldn’t have opinions or express them, but it strikes some people as rude.0 -
I informed PB of the news last November when Plato's brother responded to an email I'd sent her.JackW said:May I say the news on the previous thread that Plato had passed away last year was most unexpected. I think we PBers flirt with the idea that we are less mortal that those who are unfortunate not to share our little club.
I tangled with Plato many times and she was a doughty, tireless and forthright proponent for her views and PB is better for such passion and diversity, less we become an echo chamber for the safe, the prevailing and the conventional view.
Similarly I also missed the news of the death of Mark Senior when it was announced on PB. He was the epitome of the dreaded yellow peril and I much enjoyed his own passionate advocacy of his brand of Liberalism. He also advised me several times in relation to Jacobite numismatic history and related sales. My collection thanked Mark regularly.
On this the 15th birthday of our revered site it is appropriate to recall the Plato's, Mark Senior's and other celebrated PBers who no longer "Post Comment" with those of us who continue to enjoy Mike Smithson's pleasurable little political foible.
He said... "I'm afraid my sister Philippa died on the 29th of June in her property in Hailsham East Sussex suddenly of natural causes this was a great shock as she was only 51 she had been unwell for a few years but as could be expected of Philippa refused to see a doctor. I would be obliged if you could inform whosoever you think would be interested as I know she lived for the discussion and scrapping on these forums."
He later said... "It was such a shock to me to be called by the police, she was enjoying living in her new place having moved 10 months earlier beautiful setting and safe, she was an extremely private person really but I think could have done whatever she wanted including running the country, she always described herself as a man in a woman's body ready for any challenge and I suspect the high stress of her earlier high octane life took its toll on her health. It was a privilege to have known her and I suspect given a few breaks she could have been a fantastic leader abeit terrifying to anyone in opposition. Our mother and father Jo and Roy were the same highly intelligent no compromise people so I'm not surprised she had an effect wherever she went."0 -
An unfamiliar accent does not equal a foreign national esp. in London.RoyalBlue said:
If you visit someone’s house, would you tell them that their decor was vulgar, their furniture fatigued and their choice in wine basic, even if it was all true?eristdoof said:
I find this extremely offensive as someone who lives in a different country that that in which I was born.Omnium said:I've just come from central London. Quite a lot of foreign accents in the mix of those protesting. I'm not entirely sure I'd be out marching if I lived in another country.
I am allowed to have an opinion and i am allowed to express that opinion.
Nobody is saying foreign nationals shouldn’t have opinions or express them, but it strikes some people as rude.0 -
So more people in Edinburgh have signed the pertition than actually voted Leave? Wow.AndyJS said:100,000 in Edinburgh have signed the petition, compared to 188,000 who voted Remain in the referendum.
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
I wonder if that will cause any reflection in the msp for Edinburgh Central?0 -
Remainers are as divided in their approach to Europe as Leavers are. There is no 90%.FF43 said:
Remainers believe in engagement, in a literal sense; Leavers in disengagement. I accept a small number of Leavers believed in the global Britain Brexit idea (and are looking pretty silly right now, given the way Brexit is inevitably turning out), but 90% is good enough as a generalisation.Alanbrooke said:
or parochial Europeans or street food sellers or brits who dont like toriesFF43 said:
Key point. The demonstrators in London are globalists, unlike Brexiteers and gilets jauneswilliamglenn said:
Rubbish. The gilets jaunes are the French equivalent of a combination of the people who trashed the City in the May Day protests and the BNP.No_Offence_Alan said:The irony is that the behaviour of the People's Vote marchers compared to the gilets jaunes just emphasises the difference between the UK and "Europe".
One of the most tedious aspects of Brexit is looking at a block of voters and saying they all think the same0 -
There are different types of engagement. One can engage with people without supporting political union with them. Most Scottish nationalists, for example, are quite willing to engage with the English, but don't want political union with them.FF43 said:
Remainers believe in engagement, in a literal sense; Leavers in disengagement. I accept a small number of Leavers believed in the global Britain Brexit idea (and are looking pretty silly right now, given the way Brexit is inevitably turning out), but 90% is good enough as a generalisation.Alanbrooke said:
or parochial Europeans or street food sellers or brits who dont like toriesFF43 said:
Key point. The demonstrators in London are globalists, unlike Brexiteers and gilets jauneswilliamglenn said:
Rubbish. The gilets jaunes are the French equivalent of a combination of the people who trashed the City in the May Day protests and the BNP.No_Offence_Alan said:The irony is that the behaviour of the People's Vote marchers compared to the gilets jaunes just emphasises the difference between the UK and "Europe".
One of the most tedious aspects of Brexit is looking at a block of voters and saying they all think the same0 -
Around 1 in 6 voters in Belfast South have signed the petition. In Haringay and Bristol West it is more like 1 in 3.Alanbrooke said:
and after all the heartache of the backstop nobody in NI gives a shitAndyJS said:100,000 in Edinburgh have signed the petition, compared to 188,000 who voted Remain in the referendum.
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
That’s extraordinary.
And it ain’t over yet. It may get to 6 million.0 -
Would work better on a pro-brexit march, though.Scott_P said:0 -
so a bloke who glorifiies extreme violence and shouts nigga all the time is literally your poster boy ?Scott_P said:
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Yep, that’s pretty cool.Scott_P said:0 -
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I guess this is one way to make the march less achingly white and middle-class.Scott_P said:0 -
Doorstep canvassing shows the things that people are interested in are often not what you think they are interested in. On local issues pot holes and dog mess outweigh diversity and public health 1000 to 1.MikeL said:Over the 15 years of PB (and what a great 15 years it's been!) one of the most common mistakes of posters has been to think that everyone else in the public is interested in what they personally are interested in.
We see this with all the detailed arguments re Brexit - at least 90% of people who voted Leave have no interest whatsoever in the detail (except immigration) - they just want to Leave - because they think it's the right thing to do and will make them feel good. Which is why if May's deal (or any deal which the ERG don't like) goes through the Leave voting public will be content.
They'll happily accept a Single Market or Common Market. Why? Well everyone was happy with the Common Market in the 70s and 80s. Even Mrs Thatcher was happy with the Common Market. If it was good enough for Mrs T it will certainly be good enough for 90%+ of Con Leave voters.0 -
I think you mean Belfast South which is liberal university land, belfast west doesnt seem that bothered.Gardenwalker said:
Around 1 in 6 voters in Belfast South have signed the petition. In Haringay and Bristol West it is more like 1 in 3.Alanbrooke said:
and after all the heartache of the backstop nobody in NI gives a shitAndyJS said:100,000 in Edinburgh have signed the petition, compared to 188,000 who voted Remain in the referendum.
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
That’s extraordinary.
And it ain’t over yet. It may get to 6 million.0 -
Are you suggesting that liberal university land is somehow irrelevant?Alanbrooke said:
I think you mean Belfast South which is liberal university land, belfast west doesnt seem that bothered.Gardenwalker said:
Around 1 in 6 voters in Belfast South have signed the petition. In Haringay and Bristol West it is more like 1 in 3.Alanbrooke said:
and after all the heartache of the backstop nobody in NI gives a shitAndyJS said:100,000 in Edinburgh have signed the petition, compared to 188,000 who voted Remain in the referendum.
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
That’s extraordinary.
And it ain’t over yet. It may get to 6 million.0 -
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1109476610896465921?s=21RoyalBlue said:
I guess this is one way to make the march less achingly white and middle-class.Scott_P said:0 -
Which is why I see no sense in saying let's have a GE to determine the way forward on brexit. Even if the main parties have clear and non-overlapping plans for brexit, and even if they put nothing else in their manifestos, people will still vote on magic grandpa vs dementia tax type issues rather than on the eu.notme2 said:
Doorstep canvassing shows the things that people are interested in are often not what you think they are interested in. On local issues pot holes and dog mess outweigh diversity and public health 1000 to 1.MikeL said:Over the 15 years of PB (and what a great 15 years it's been!) one of the most common mistakes of posters has been to think that everyone else in the public is interested in what they personally are interested in.
We see this with all the detailed arguments re Brexit - at least 90% of people who voted Leave have no interest whatsoever in the detail (except immigration) - they just want to Leave - because they think it's the right thing to do and will make them feel good. Which is why if May's deal (or any deal which the ERG don't like) goes through the Leave voting public will be content.
They'll happily accept a Single Market or Common Market. Why? Well everyone was happy with the Common Market in the 70s and 80s. Even Mrs Thatcher was happy with the Common Market. If it was good enough for Mrs T it will certainly be good enough for 90%+ of Con Leave voters.0 -
not at all their entitled to their views but it would be surprising is this wasnt how they were voting.Gallowgate said:
Are you suggesting that liberal university land is somehow irrelevant?Alanbrooke said:
I think you mean Belfast South which is liberal university land, belfast west doesnt seem that bothered.Gardenwalker said:
Around 1 in 6 voters in Belfast South have signed the petition. In Haringay and Bristol West it is more like 1 in 3.Alanbrooke said:
and after all the heartache of the backstop nobody in NI gives a shitAndyJS said:100,000 in Edinburgh have signed the petition, compared to 188,000 who voted Remain in the referendum.
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
That’s extraordinary.
And it ain’t over yet. It may get to 6 million.0 -
Hurrah! Get rid. She's had her go and failed utterly, in the worst example of statecraft in who knows how many decades.Scott_P said:0 -
And how many of those Remainers are willing to engage with 'people like us' but rather less so with 'people like them' ?FF43 said:
Remainers believe in engagement, in a literal sense; Leavers in disengagement. I accept a small number of Leavers believed in the global Britain Brexit idea (and are looking pretty silly right now, given the way Brexit is inevitably turning out), but 90% is good enough as a generalisation.Alanbrooke said:
or parochial Europeans or street food sellers or brits who dont like toriesFF43 said:
Key point. The demonstrators in London are globalists, unlike Brexiteers and gilets jauneswilliamglenn said:
Rubbish. The gilets jaunes are the French equivalent of a combination of the people who trashed the City in the May Day protests and the BNP.No_Offence_Alan said:The irony is that the behaviour of the People's Vote marchers compared to the gilets jaunes just emphasises the difference between the UK and "Europe".
One of the most tedious aspects of Brexit is looking at a block of voters and saying they all think the same0 -
"decades" flatters her.rottenborough said:
Hurrah! Get rid. She's had her go and failed utterly, in the worst example of statecraft in who knows how many decades.Scott_P said:0 -
Most Scottish nationalists support EU membership, and would welcome English membership of the EU. Your point is internally contradictory.Sean_F said:
There are different types of engagement. One can engage with people without supporting political union with them. Most Scottish nationalists, for example, are quite willing to engage with the English, but don't want political union with them.FF43 said:
Remainers believe in engagement, in a literal sense; Leavers in disengagement. I accept a small number of Leavers believed in the global Britain Brexit idea (and are looking pretty silly right now, given the way Brexit is inevitably turning out), but 90% is good enough as a generalisation.Alanbrooke said:
or parochial Europeans or street food sellers or brits who dont like toriesFF43 said:
Key point. The demonstrators in London are globalists, unlike Brexiteers and gilets jauneswilliamglenn said:
Rubbish. The gilets jaunes are the French equivalent of a combination of the people who trashed the City in the May Day protests and the BNP.No_Offence_Alan said:The irony is that the behaviour of the People's Vote marchers compared to the gilets jaunes just emphasises the difference between the UK and "Europe".
One of the most tedious aspects of Brexit is looking at a block of voters and saying they all think the same0 -
I don't understand the point being made there whatever the merits of or significance of either march.Gardenwalker said:
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1109476610896465921?s=21RoyalBlue said:
I guess this is one way to make the march less achingly white and middle-class.Scott_P said:
Also, I've not been following things - is it officially a 'revokeA50' march or a 'people's vote' march?0 -
Not sure how they would have decided on that triumvirate. Who gets to be Lepidus?Scott_P said:
That even now, with a hard deadline to at least try to pass the deal, May won't do it because she knows it will fail, demonstrates pretty well she has no ideas.0 -
The main reasons why people voted Leave as stated by them are: Take control of our own affairs; get the EU out of our lives; control/reduce immigration; save money that goes to Europe. I am not saying those are good or bad arguments, but they are the arguments of people who don't like globalisation. Furthermore if you strip away the arguments to the core fact of Brexit, you end up with . a disconnection. Again that might be a good or a bad thing, but it is what it is.Sean_F said:
There are different types of engagement. One can engage with people without supporting political union with them. Most Scottish nationalists, for example, are quite willing to engage with the English, but don't want political union with them.FF43 said:
Remainers believe in engagement, in a literal sense; Leavers in disengagement. I accept a small number of Leavers believed in the global Britain Brexit idea (and are looking pretty silly right now, given the way Brexit is inevitably turning out), but 90% is good enough as a generalisation.Alanbrooke said:
or parochial Europeans or street food sellers or brits who dont like toriesFF43 said:
Key point. The demonstrators in London are globalists, unlike Brexiteers and gilets jauneswilliamglenn said:
Rubbish. The gilets jaunes are the French equivalent of a combination of the people who trashed the City in the May Day protests and the BNP.No_Offence_Alan said:The irony is that the behaviour of the People's Vote marchers compared to the gilets jaunes just emphasises the difference between the UK and "Europe".
One of the most tedious aspects of Brexit is looking at a block of voters and saying they all think the same0 -
Fuck me. The Good Brie crowd are out in force.Scott_P said:0 -
Isn't that inevitable considering it would be local people talking about local issues ?notme2 said:
Doorstep canvassing shows the things that people are interested in are often not what you think they are interested in. On local issues pot holes and dog mess outweigh diversity and public health 1000 to 1.MikeL said:Over the 15 years of PB (and what a great 15 years it's been!) one of the most common mistakes of posters has been to think that everyone else in the public is interested in what they personally are interested in.
We see this with all the detailed arguments re Brexit - at least 90% of people who voted Leave have no interest whatsoever in the detail (except immigration) - they just want to Leave - because they think it's the right thing to do and will make them feel good. Which is why if May's deal (or any deal which the ERG don't like) goes through the Leave voting public will be content.
They'll happily accept a Single Market or Common Market. Why? Well everyone was happy with the Common Market in the 70s and 80s. Even Mrs Thatcher was happy with the Common Market. If it was good enough for Mrs T it will certainly be good enough for 90%+ of Con Leave voters.
Complaining about pot holes might get something done whereas complaining about national issues wont.0 -
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When did it become a 'Revoke' march?Gardenwalker said:
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1109476610896465921?s=21RoyalBlue said:
I guess this is one way to make the march less achingly white and middle-class.Scott_P said:0 -
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There's no difference between the two. No one who does not wish to revoke is on the March.kle4 said:
I don't understand the point being made there whatever the merits of or significance of either march.Gardenwalker said:
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1109476610896465921?s=21RoyalBlue said:
I guess this is one way to make the march less achingly white and middle-class.Scott_P said:
Also, I've not been following things - is it officially a 'revokeA50' march or a 'people's vote' march?0 -
It is a people's vote march. The petition, otoh, is for revoke and remain - with no second vote - so I have signed it tactically, because as a matter of fact I think we must have a second vote after revoking.kle4 said:
I don't understand the point being made there whatever the merits of or significant of either march.Gardenwalker said:
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1109476610896465921?s=21RoyalBlue said:
I guess this is one way to make the march less achingly white and middle-class.Scott_P said:
Also, I've not been following things - is it officially a 'revokeA50' march or a 'people's vote' march?0 -
Which is obviously why Corbyn is boycotting it...SandyRentool said:Fuck me. The Good Brie crowd are out in force.
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Mr. Borough, the two best known triumvirates quickly became (effectively) monarchies.0
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Hey, it's more honest - long before I decided to back a second vote they were being needlessly coy about the purpose being explicitly to remain (especially as plenty were being honest, with the reasoning being people had changed their minds, no deal was good enough etc). Once you accept that, it's just a question of whether you think any Brexit is acceptable, and if you do a second vote is still ok even if you want remain, but if you think any Brexit is unacceptable revoke is the only option.SandyRentool said:
When did it become a 'Revoke' march?Gardenwalker said:
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1109476610896465921?s=21RoyalBlue said:
I guess this is one way to make the march less achingly white and middle-class.Scott_P said:0 -
jail CameronScott_P said:
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No problem.Gallowgate said:
Are you suggesting that liberal university land is somehow irrelevant?Alanbrooke said:
I think you mean Belfast South which is liberal university land, belfast west doesnt seem that bothered.Gardenwalker said:
Around 1 in 6 voters in Belfast South have signed the petition. In Haringay and Bristol West it is more like 1 in 3.Alanbrooke said:
and after all the heartache of the backstop nobody in NI gives a shitAndyJS said:100,000 in Edinburgh have signed the petition, compared to 188,000 who voted Remain in the referendum.
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
That’s extraordinary.
And it ain’t over yet. It may get to 6 million.
But the Universities are one of the major beneficiaries of the EU.
I have no problem with people voting from self-interest (many of us do).
What I don’t like is people who benefit enormously from the EU denigrating the views of those who do not.
Perhaps, if the benefits of being in the EU had been shared a little more widely outside of Cambridge, Bristol West, Edinburgh, London and Belfast South, then Remain would not have lost in the first place.0 -
But, most wish to come out of the U.K.williamglenn said:
Most Scottish nationalists support EU membership, and would welcome English membership of the EU. Your point is internally contradictory.Sean_F said:
There are different types of engagement. One can engage with people without supporting political union with them. Most Scottish nationalists, for example, are quite willing to engage with the English, but don't want political union with them.FF43 said:
Remainers believe in engagement, in a literal sense; Leavers in disengagement. I accept a small number of Leavers believed in the global Britain Brexit idea (and are looking pretty silly right now, given the way Brexit is inevitably turning out), but 90% is good enough as a generalisation.Alanbrooke said:
or parochial Europeans or street food sellers or brits who dont like toriesFF43 said:
Key point. The demonstrators in London are globalists, unlike Brexiteers and gilets jauneswilliamglenn said:
Rubbish. The gilets jaunes are the French equivalent of a combination of the people who trashed the City in the May Day protests and the BNP.No_Offence_Alan said:The irony is that the behaviour of the People's Vote marchers compared to the gilets jaunes just emphasises the difference between the UK and "Europe".
One of the most tedious aspects of Brexit is looking at a block of voters and saying they all think the same0 -
It's a good point to hammer home, but of course just because a democracy can change its mind doesn't mean it has or should do so.Scott_P said:0 -
How about a public inquiry into this:Scott_P said:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf
That government report which said that a certain year long recession would immediately follow a Leave vote.0 -
According the PB (Pissboiler) Tories, the march is simultaneously “achingly” white and middle-class, and full of furriners.0
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Could he not make it back to London by late afternoon?Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/LabourNorthWest/status/1109420675733831680rottenborough said:Apparently he is in Morecombe.
Meeting Hamas the wags are saying, but probably visiting a foodbank.0 -
Like Frankenstein’s Monster, Carlotta has finally turned against her Master. It’s over.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Why does he need to? Labour supporters who are more enthusiastic about a vote or revoking will be there, secure the support of Labour voters who want those things, and he need not be involved.FrancisUrquhart said:
Could he not make it back to London by late afternoon?Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/LabourNorthWest/status/1109420675733831680rottenborough said:Apparently he is in Morecombe.
Meeting Hamas the wags are saying, but probably visiting a foodbank.0 -
I don't understand your point. There are plenty of white, middle-class frogs and huns.Gardenwalker said:According the PB (Pissboiler) Tories, the march is simultaneously “achingly” white and middle-class, and full of furriners.
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However the entryists chapping on their doors would rather talk about Venezuela or Israel-Palestine.another_richard said:
Isn't that inevitable considering it would be local people talking about local issues ?notme2 said:
Doorstep canvassing shows the things that people are interested in are often not what you think they are interested in. On local issues pot holes and dog mess outweigh diversity and public health 1000 to 1.MikeL said:Over the 15 years of PB (and what a great 15 years it's been!) one of the most common mistakes of posters has been to think that everyone else in the public is interested in what they personally are interested in.
We see this with all the detailed arguments re Brexit - at least 90% of people who voted Leave have no interest whatsoever in the detail (except immigration) - they just want to Leave - because they think it's the right thing to do and will make them feel good. Which is why if May's deal (or any deal which the ERG don't like) goes through the Leave voting public will be content.
They'll happily accept a Single Market or Common Market. Why? Well everyone was happy with the Common Market in the 70s and 80s. Even Mrs Thatcher was happy with the Common Market. If it was good enough for Mrs T it will certainly be good enough for 90%+ of Con Leave voters.
Complaining about pot holes might get something done whereas complaining about national issues wont.0 -
you mean furriers surely ?Gardenwalker said:According the PB (Pissboiler) Tories, the march is simultaneously “achingly” white and middle-class, and full of furriners.
for all the poshos0 -
The trains were full...FrancisUrquhart said:Could he not make it back to London by late afternoon?
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And the snarky tweet of the day award goes to... one of its regular winners:
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/11094446741446901770 -
As in Cornwall for example.YBarddCwsc said:
No problem.Gallowgate said:
Are you suggesting that liberal university land is somehow irrelevant?Alanbrooke said:
I think you mean Belfast South which is liberal university land, belfast west doesnt seem that bothered.Gardenwalker said:
Around 1 in 6 voters in Belfast South have signed the petition. In Haringay and Bristol West it is more like 1 in 3.Alanbrooke said:
and after all the heartache of the backstop nobody in NI gives a shitAndyJS said:100,000 in Edinburgh have signed the petition, compared to 188,000 who voted Remain in the referendum.
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
That’s extraordinary.
And it ain’t over yet. It may get to 6 million.
But the Universities are one of the major beneficiaries of the EU.
I have no problem with people voting from self-interest (many of us do).
What I don’t like is people who benefit enormously from the EU denigrating the views of those who do not.
Perhaps, if the benefits of being in the EU had been shared a little more widely outside of Cambridge, Bristol West, Edinburgh, London and Belfast South, then Remain would not have lost in the first place.0 -
Ferkin hell, is that realy Vine?williamglenn said:0 -
To be fair, Sarah Vine *is* subhuman.williamglenn said:0 -
Has anyone ever seen a good Leaver sign? Even the official signs on Farage's little thing look like Tesco value labels. It is weird how in these kind of conflicts one side always produces better artwork. Republican murals usually look much better than Loyalist ones. Weimar art much better than Nazi art. I think I tend to sympathise with the side with the better art but hopefully not for aesthetic reasons.Gardenwalker said:0 -
Surely Jezza could get back, stand on the edge of the crowd, hold a flag and then say he was there but not actually involved.Scott_P said:
The trains were full...FrancisUrquhart said:Could he not make it back to London by late afternoon?
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How? None of them are committed No Dealers so the ERG will try and get a candidate of their own to the final two and the membership. Plus there is no guarantee whatever they propose will get through Parliament, hence the need for indicative votes of MPsScott_P said:0 -
And a democracy normally implements a decision of a democratic election first. If the people then vote for something else after the first vote has been implemented then it can of course change its mind.kle4 said:
It's a good point to hammer home, but of course just because a democracy can change its mind doesn't mean it has or should do so.Scott_P said:
Keep voting until you deliver the result I want isn't quite the same thing!0 -
classy.rottenborough said:And the snarky tweet of the day award goes to... one of its regular winners:
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/11094446741446901770 -
I'm merely observing that the ERGers want May out for failing to deliver what they themselves have blocked....Gardenwalker said:
Like Frankenstein’s Monster, Carlotta has finally turned against her Master. It’s over.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Well, of course, we keep on getting told things like Blaenau Gwent (one of the most Leave voting constituencies) has benefitted enormously from the EU. And how ungrateful the Valleys folk are, given the lavishment of EU cash on the area.OldKingCole said:
As in Cornwall for example.YBarddCwsc said:
No problem.Gallowgate said:
Are you suggesting that liberal university land is somehow irrelevant?Alanbrooke said:
I think you mean Belfast South which is liberal university land, belfast west doesnt seem that bothered.Gardenwalker said:
Around 1 in 6 voters in Belfast South have signed the petition. In Haringay and Bristol West it is more like 1 in 3.Alanbrooke said:
and after all the heartache of the backstop nobody in NI gives a shitAndyJS said:100,000 in Edinburgh have signed the petition, compared to 188,000 who voted Remain in the referendum.
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
That’s extraordinary.
And it ain’t over yet. It may get to 6 million.
But the Universities are one of the major beneficiaries of the EU.
I have no problem with people voting from self-interest (many of us do).
What I don’t like is people who benefit enormously from the EU denigrating the views of those who do not.
Perhaps, if the benefits of being in the EU had been shared a little more widely outside of Cambridge, Bristol West, Edinburgh, London and Belfast South, then Remain would not have lost in the first place.
Normally, from people who have never visited Ebbw Vale.
I have been to Ebbw Vale recently. All I can say is if tonnes of EU money have been spent on Ebbw Vale, it is genuinely bewildering.
Nothing in Ebbw Vale looks like any money has been spent on it since the Steelworks closed.0 -
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If only it were as east to get the Commons to pick an option by removing alternatives and none of the above!CarlottaVance said:Voodoo Pole Klaxon!
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1109496673645019136
Edit:
Being serious, I don't know Lidington's qualities, Hunt is a slimy non entity, so Gove would be the choice - he's flexible, has more presence than the other two and the very fact of being unpopular with the public may mean others are willing to see him as an interim and work with him.0 -
It will never not be funny (if infuriating). How dare May fail to deliver Brexit/extend Brexit?! If only we could have done something!CarlottaVance said:
I'm merely observing that the ERGers want May out for failing to deliver what they themselves have blocked....Gardenwalker said:
Like Frankenstein’s Monster, Carlotta has finally turned against her Master. It’s over.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Gove.CarlottaVance said:Voodoo Pole Klaxon!
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/11094966736450191360 -
I think she said once that she'd worked for the police, in administration. She also mentioned a connection to Sierra Leone, although I was never quite sure what it was.FrancisUrquhart said:
Plato's descent into the alt-right sewer of consoiracy theories really rather sad. I know that a number of pbers met her in real life a number of years before that and found her a perfectly normal individual.JackW said:May I say the news on the previous thread that Plato had passed away last year was most unexpected. I think we PBers flirt with the idea that we are less mortal that those who are unfortunate not to share our little club.
I tangled with Plato many times and she was a doughty, tireless and forthright proponent for her views and PB is better for such passion and diversity, less we become an echo chamber for the safe, the prevailing and the conventional view.
Similarly I also missed the news of the death of Mark Senior when it was announced on PB. He was the epitome of the dreaded yellow peril and I much enjoyed his own passionate advocacy of his brand of Liberalism. He also advised me several times in relation to Jacobite numismatic history and related sales. My collection thanked Mark regularly.
On this the 15th birthday of our revered site it is appropriate to recall the Plato's, Mark Senior's and other celebrated PBers who no longer "Post Comment" with those of us who continue to enjoy Mike Smithson's pleasurable little political foible.0 -
I agree with Matthew.CarlottaVance said:Voodoo Pole Klaxon!
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1109496673645019136
https://twitter.com/MatthewHLees/status/11094978481382072350 -
You can spot them though! They have cheesen'biscuits.....rottenborough said:And the snarky tweet of the day award goes to... one of its regular winners:
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/11094446741446901770 -
This is amusing...
@danielJHannan I have held off from criticising the PM until now from a combination of sympathy, loyalty and even (if I'm honest) chivalry. I was wrong. We won't begin to get out of this mess until someone else takes over. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/23/reason-mess-brexit-theresa-may-time-go/
Translation
I have held off from criticising the PM until now because she was doing everything I wanted to deliver Brexit, but now it's all turned to shit I need a scapegoat so people don't start questioning the project rather than the delivery...0 -
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So basically Leo you havent got a plan for avoiding a hard border have you ?
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/governments-plan-for-avoiding-hard-border-in-event-of-nodeal-brexit-very-rough-taoiseach-admits-37943793.html0 -
"And a democracy normally implements a decision of a democratic election first." Can you produce any authority or rationale for that, or are you just saying it? Of course it is boringly true in this country in that 99% of democratic decisions in this country involve appointing people to things, which is easy and unproblematic and practically self-fulfilling. But why do you say it is what a democracy "normally" does in other cases?brendan16 said:
And a democracy normally implements a decision of a democratic election first. If the people then vote for something else after the first vote has been implemented then it can of course change its mind.kle4 said:
It's a good point to hammer home, but of course just because a democracy can change its mind doesn't mean it has or should do so.Scott_P said:
Keep voting until you deliver the result I want isn't quite the same thing!0 -
No idea what that is about, but I have spotted Jemima at the right of the picture with her teddy Arbuthnott.Scott_P said:0 -
I don't think Con can have another leader that's not voted for by the membership.Scott_P said:0 -
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Lidington*CarlottaVance said:Voodoo Pole Klaxon!
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1109496673645019136
*I may have a bet on him...
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but David Cameron called the referendum not MayScott_P said:This is amusing...
@danielJHannan I have held off from criticising the PM until now from a combination of sympathy, loyalty and even (if I'm honest) chivalry. I was wrong. We won't begin to get out of this mess until someone else takes over. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/23/reason-mess-brexit-theresa-may-time-go/
Translation
I have held off from criticising the PM until now because she was doing everything I wanted to deliver Brexit, but now it's all turned to shit I need a scapegoat so people don't start questioning the project rather than the delivery...
and Osborne fucked up the political campaign
letsbe honest and name the guilty parties0 -
French cheese of course which they possibly got on the way back from their skiing holidays where they read Jane Austen novels!CarlottaVance said:
You can spot them though! They have cheesen'biscuits.....rottenborough said:And the snarky tweet of the day award goes to... one of its regular winners:
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1109444674144690177
Is it surprising that barely 2% of voters in Barnsley and Dagenham - who aren't generally part of said demographic - have signed the revoke petition vs barely a tenth of the numbers in Hampstead, Richmond Park and Muswell Hill?!0 -
Lidington it seems, currently on 55% to 31% for Gove and just 14% for HuntCarlottaVance said:Voodoo Pole Klaxon!
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1109496673645019136
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This is caretaker talk, not permanent leader. A leadership election would be held over the summer I imagine.GIN1138 said:
I don't think Con can have another leader that's not voted for by the membership.Scott_P said:
So it probably would be Liddington, if this comes to pass. Gove and Hunt will want to be in the real race.
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He'd not find a seat in the trainFrancisUrquhart said:
Could he not make it back to London by late afternoon?Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/LabourNorthWest/status/1109420675733831680rottenborough said:Apparently he is in Morecombe.
Meeting Hamas the wags are saying, but probably visiting a foodbank.0 -
I was on the previous march where a small band of apparently coked-up middle aged Chelsea fans aggressively berated the crowd from the sidelines. They never looked in any physical danger whatsoever (sadly).williamglenn said:0 -
It would probably be Lidington to agree a BINO Brexit with the EU, then Boris or another Leaver would win the membership to fight a general election on a hard Brexit platformrottenborough said:
This is caretaker talk, not permanent leader. A leadership election would be held over the summer I imagine.GIN1138 said:
I don't think Con can have another leader that's not voted for by the membership.Scott_P said:
So it probably would be Liddington, if this comes to pass. Gove and Hunt will want to be in the real race.0 -
That sort of tweet is just irritating because it shows no such thing. I think enough people have changed their minds and remain would now win, but we never had 17m people march in the streets for Leave but it still won. Really big marches are not irrelevant, but they also don't show what people deliberately pretend they show too.Scott_P said:0
