politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Rendering unto Caesar
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The thing is though that those are destinations (Common Market 2 or Norway or Canada) to be decided in the transition period, not matters that can be discussed or negotiated whilst we are still in the EU. At least that is what the EU have been telling us for the last 3 years.HYUFD said:
Common Market 2.0 can still pass without them, they also voted to keep No Deal on the table, the Commons voted to take No Deal off the tablePhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't change what I said at all.HYUFD said:
Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordinglyPhilip_Thompson said:
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.eek said:
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?Philip_Thompson said:
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.kle4 said:
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.eek said:https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1108829531903836161
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
Gove, Leadsom, Hunt, Fox etc wouldn't reportedly.
So they are completely irrelevant to the current question of the Withdrawal Agreement.0 -
Who would have believed, on that sunny day in 2016, that our PM would have to skulk in the foyer while the EU bigwigs considered her plea for an Article 50 extension?Scott_P said:0 -
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.0 -
Tyranny of percentages. Look at it again and tell me the problem with the last sentence.SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
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So how did I vote in the referendum and what do I do for a living. I nswered both those points earlier today so it shouldn’t be difficult to find out why you are wrong in your viewpoint.Gallowgate said:kjohnw said:
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EUeek said:
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.kjohnw said:1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
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A two week extension? Now that's what I call short!0
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Perhaps politicians should lie less often and less blatantlySeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
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Everyone has known that for quite some time. No one else wants the job or they'd have acted by now. I don't think even May wants the job but she won't resign and they so far won't sack her either so she stumbles along blindly doing the best she can, which is not good.nico67 said:If comments from the Chief Whip are true then May surely must go .
Politicians need to stop whining all the time, that's our job. If she won't fall on her sword then it is their job to push her onto it, it isn't a complicated puzzle.0 -
He has basically said what the rest of us were all thinking which is that her comments last night were appalling and there is no way he can be expected to whip the party when she has accused them all of acting against the country.Floater said:
What have I missed?nico67 said:If comments from the Chief Whip are true then May surely must go .
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Unpopular opinion but the real threat of No Deal is the most valuable card May has left in her hand. If she can keep that card until the last minute it’s bound to be in her favour, because there’s no way the Irish will want No Deal, and there’s no way the EU would want Ireland to suffer a No Deal, with all the political and financial turmoil that’ll come with it.
The smart Remainers in parliament, including Bercow, know this. They are desperate to achieve a Revoke and they know the best way to do that is to deprive May of the best card she has.
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OuchRichard_Tyndall said:
He has basically said what the rest of us were all thinking which is that her comments last night were appalling and there is no way he can be expected to whip the party when she has accused them all of acting against the country.Floater said:
What have I missed?nico67 said:If comments from the Chief Whip are true then May surely must go .
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Regardless of the eventual outcome, I think the long term effect of the omnishambles of the last couple of years will be a further corrosion of our trust in the political class - something that began with the expenses scandal (perhaps earlier - Iraq? Back to basics?) but has been building for a long time.kle4 said:
And when that doesn't happen and an election, whenever it happens, returns the same old shower?kyf_100 said:
+1twistedfirestopper3 said:I think the only way this gets sorted is to follow the Ripley Doctrine regarding Westminster.
Once this is all over, a bonfire (metaphorical, of course) of the present lot who have brought us to this crisis needs to happen. Sack the lot of em. Start again.
I think they've handled themselves very poorly, but let's not pretend even for a minute that the same party lines will broadly apply and the same kind of candidates will get appointed. We reward that behaviour.
I certainly won't be voting Conservative next time around, partly due to the sheer idiocy and illiberal nature of the wanking license but mostly due to the utter mishandling of Brexit (to quote, "f**k business" is not what I voted for). But I won't be voting for anyone else either.
I think a lot of people will either become disengaged from the political process and abstain. The others will be swept up by demagogues promising change, as so many have on the continent or across the pond.
Brexit has shown our system isn't fit for purpose. But to your point, to continue to vote for this shower will only encourage them.0 -
I think the Article 50 petition is straight arrows.
But this one was, I believe, not written by a native speaker of English. In particular, Slavic users of our Mother Tongue often omit definite articles.
https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/1788440 -
Thread as they say, which should probably be ended with the standard Dave Allenism, may your God go with you.
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/11088397406509834270 -
Yes. It's the same spirit that would probably see Leave win a second referendum by a country mile.SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
There is something rousing about that spirit, but it's more suitable to stoicism in the face of terror threats, etc, and having it create a crisis to be stoic in is somewhat perverse.
It could make a fine film, but I don't want to live through it.0 -
It's not about provoking us, it's a question of what action can they take which achieves a better aim for them. Does an unconditional extension do that? I'm not sure it does, it feels like their version of can kicking because they know a short one with conditions means we crash out and while they are more prepared for that than we are, they'd rather delay it as long as possible.FF43 said:
The UK has gone completely mad and there is no benefit to them in provoking us. Actually they are being rational.MikeL said:Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?
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I pity the bloke who presents Outside Source on the Beeb news channel. He's been trying to spin out 2 hours of no news by interviewing other journos, and playing with his giant touchscreen.0
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Surely a final destination that the EU agrees with and does object to make the intermediate stages bearable for both the UK and the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
The thing is though that those are destinations (Common Market 2 or Norway or Canada) to be decided in the transition period, not matters that can be discussed or negotiated whilst we are still in the EU. At least that is what the EU have been telling us for the last 3 years.HYUFD said:
Common Market 2.0 can still pass without them, they also voted to keep No Deal on the table, the Commons voted to take No Deal off the tablePhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't change what I said at all.HYUFD said:
Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordinglyPhilip_Thompson said:
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.eek said:
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?Philip_Thompson said:
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.kle4 said:
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.eek said:https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1108829531903836161
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
Gove, Leadsom, Hunt, Fox etc wouldn't reportedly.
So they are completely irrelevant to the current question of the Withdrawal Agreement.0 -
We have had nothing but Project Crap Your Pants for the last month, it's been relentless, there's been farmers crying on TV, Honda closing its factories, nuclear shelters being opened for the masses, you would have expected quite a few Brits to crumble and cower.IanB2 said:
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
And yet, the opposite. Magnificent. It may be stupid and suicidal, but it is also magnificent. We're yearning to jump over the cliff. Fuck it all.0 -
Of course. That's been obvious from the start.Fenster said:Unpopular opinion but the real threat of No Deal is the most valuable card May has left in her hand. If she can keep that card until the last minute it’s bound to be in her favour, because there’s no way the Irish will want No Deal, and there’s no way the EU would want Ireland to suffer a No Deal, with all the political and financial turmoil that’ll come with it.
The smart Remainers in parliament, including Bercow, know this. They are desperate to achieve a Revoke and they know the best way to do that is to deprive May of the best card she has.
If one positive thing has come from this, its that no deal is being taken seriously. Three years too late.0 -
Currently watching Greg Hands MP taking part in a debate on Brexiteers on German TV. Didn’t know he was fluent but he’s very confident. Apparently he’s blaming the EU for Everything which is a pretty tough message for his audience. Still doing much better than May last night...0
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70% of Conservative respondents support No-Deal.SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
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This:SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1108683381599100928
And this:
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/11086836276662927360 -
It's so easy, but I can't do itChris said:
that's in the lap of the godsRichard_Tyndall said:
In case you missed it... we haven't left yet.Chris said:Isn't it great to have taken back control so decisively?
So risky, but I gotta chance it
So funny, there's nothing to laugh about
My money, that's all you wanna talk about
I can see what you want me to be
But I'm no fool
It's in the lap of the gods
Freddie was singing about Brexit?0 -
Anecdotal, I know, but I know several people who voted leave who would not bother to vote in a second referendum because what would be the point. I would not be surprised to see a lot of that, aided by diminishment of enthusiasm from others like myself.OblitusSumMe said:
Yes. It's the same spirit that would probably see Leave win a second referendum by a country mile.SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
There is something rousing about that spirit, but it's more suitable to stoicism in the face of terror threats, etc, and having it create a crisis to be stoic in is somewhat perverse.
It could make a fine film, but I don't want to live through it.0 -
Most people don’t vote for their favourite party, they vote for the party they dislike least. And that makes not voting very difficult for many people.kyf_100 said:
Regardless of the eventual outcome, I think the long term effect of the omnishambles of the last couple of years will be a further corrosion of our trust in the political class - something that began with the expenses scandal (perhaps earlier - Iraq? Back to basics?) but has been building for a long time.kle4 said:
And when that doesn't happen and an election, whenever it happens, returns the same old shower?kyf_100 said:
+1twistedfirestopper3 said:I think the only way this gets sorted is to follow the Ripley Doctrine regarding Westminster.
Once this is all over, a bonfire (metaphorical, of course) of the present lot who have brought us to this crisis needs to happen. Sack the lot of em. Start again.
I think they've handled themselves very poorly, but let's not pretend even for a minute that the same party lines will broadly apply and the same kind of candidates will get appointed. We reward that behaviour.
I certainly won't be voting Conservative next time around, partly due to the sheer idiocy and illiberal nature of the wanking license but mostly due to the utter mishandling of Brexit (to quote, "f**k business" is not what I voted for). But I won't be voting for anyone else either.
I think a lot of people will either become disengaged from the political process and abstain. The others will be swept up by demagogues promising change, as so many have on the continent or across the pond.
Brexit has shown our system isn't fit for purpose. But to your point, to continue to vote for this shower will only encourage them.0 -
I didn't think I'd be going to bed before the 7 PM press conference.
Night all.0 -
It hasn't really, YouGov had it Remain 57% Leave with No Deal 43% a few days ago and 46% for No Deal is still under 50% and 6% less than the 52% Leave got in 2016. Leavers are rallying around No Deal rather than May's Deal but a majority are still opposed to it.SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-deal-opinion-poll-theresa-may-a8831241.html0 -
I expect the original conditional one was an attempt to help May give her deal a push. They now see how badly May is handling things, realise her deal is doomed anyway, and probably understand that the EU trying to influence MPs could easily backfire.MikeL said:Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?
Unlike May, they are planning ahead, and trying to avoid having to spend another load of time in summit at the end of next week discussing the whole thing again, after the deal is rejected again. So they are looking for a decision that covers all bases.0 -
Hopefuly, because Honecker had resigned before the 9th of November 1989FF43 said:https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1108830556178079750
And an astute comment that Mrs May reminds of Honecker in the last days of the GDR. In fact there are strong parallels between Brexit and East Germany. A lot of the motivations are the same.0 -
Actually no kjohnw, it was about 300k at 9.30am and has climbed steadily all day. Compare the "no deal" petition for numbers..........kjohnw said:1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
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Apparently it looks like extension to May if deal passes, extension to mid April if it doesn’t, and UK to indicate way forward.
I can take that. Deal must be dead though.0 -
This whole impasse is about politicians covering their backs.kle4 said:
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.Cyclefree said:May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
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I think you have misunderstood the petition systems. Unfortunately (and I mean that genuinely) it does not mean it is automatically debated. It only means it is considered by the Petitions Committee who will recommend whether or not it should be debated.eek said:
Nope we are a Parliamentary democracy. All a petition does is suggest to parliament something that should be debated - which hopefully this will be so it removes one of the 3 options from the table.kjohnw said:
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EUeek said:
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.kjohnw said:1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Then as I stated earlier the final 2 options can be decided upon and the people paid and elected to make decisions will have finally done their job and made a decision.
As an aside this petition still has a ways to go to beat the last one asking for a re-run of the referendum which reached 4.1 million signatures.0 -
So...
According to Katya Adler:
Leaders agreeing to unconditional extension till 12 April unconditionally. If MPs approve the #Brexit deal next week, there’s a short extension till 22 May. If UK wants more time will need to tell EU by 12 April (so as to be able to take part in elex for European Parliament0 -
Don’t let the truth get in the way of his “facts” you will hurt his feelings.topherdawson said:
Actually no kjohnw, it was about 300k at 9.30am and has climbed steadily all day. Compare the "no deal" petition for numbers..........kjohnw said:1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
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Justin Welby is Oxbridge educated and was a senior businessman, Rowan Williams is a top Oxford academic, they have more to contribute than many there and as per the nature of the role and the parishes and congregations they will have served and the Churches' charity work they have had experience of people from all walks of lifeRichard_Tyndall said:
Most of those people are there because of the individual contributions they made to their chosen fields. Bishops are there because of the status of their religion irrespective of their individual qualities.HYUFD said:
There is no reason why religious leaders should not be in the Lords in the same way ex politicians, businessmen, academics, lawyers, scientists, former sportspeople and figures in the arts arePhilip_Thompson said:
Hell no.HYUFD said:
Yes and many of those Bishops contribute more to debates than the party donor hacks who take up too many places nowadays, the same applies to the Rabbis who have had seats there and representatives of other faiths could also have a presencePhilip_Thompson said:
It's so independent it has Bishops in the Lords.Casino_Royale said:
It’s an independent, very English, church, at the centre of parishes and communities up and down the country, and it plays a useful (if somewhat left-leaning) part in our national debate.williamglenn said:
We could turn it into the Church of Windsor.Casino_Royale said:
I think it’s a fairly harmless (but also valuable) part of our cultural and historical tapestry.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope I am with Alastair on this one. If we are to use Brexit as an opportunity for real beneficial change then disestablishment is a very good place to start.Casino_Royale said:
No thanks.AlastairMeeks said:I don't feel we've had enough constitutional tinkering recently. A full separation of the church and the state is overdue. Perhaps something to look at once Brexit is uncontroversial?
I like the established CoE.
And I love giving prayers to its head, HM Queen Elizabeth, at Christmas in Winchester cathedral.
But I wouldn’t expect you to agree. I am a Conservative, after all.
I think that’s, on balance, a positive thing.
If people want to support their medieval superstitions then good luck to them, no reason it should be established though.
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You'd have thought people would have learnt by now the British public don't react well to Project Fear scaremongering.SeanT said:
We have had nothing but Project Crap Your Pants for the last month, it's been relentless, there's been farmers crying on TV, Honda closing its factories, nuclear shelters being opened for the masses, you would have expected quite a few Brits to crumble and cower.IanB2 said:
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
And yet, the opposite. Magnificent. It may be stupid and suicidal, but it is also magnificent. We're yearning to jump over the cliff. Fuck it all.
People aren't thick. The more bullshit gets spread, the more unbelievable it becomes, undermining the true worries.
The scare stories have gotten so stupid now. We won't have fresh food, medicine, planes won't fly. The car industry will be wiped out. Not one of those will happen. The more that gets spread, the more it gets sensible people's backs ups and we think "why are you lying to me".
The truth is mundane, no deal will be an inconvenience. There may be problems we haven't foreseen. It could cost some business.0 -
I think it comes to the same thing. I would add that the EU previously liked the cliff edge because it gave them leverage. Now they no longer see if in their interest. No Deal is lose/lose big time. Difference is the EU realises that.kle4 said:
It's not about provoking us, it's a question of what action can they take which achieves a better aim for them. Does an unconditional extension do that? I'm not sure it does, it feels like their version of can kicking because they know a short one with conditions means we crash out and while they are more prepared for that than we are, they'd rather delay it as long as possible.FF43 said:
The UK has gone completely mad and there is no benefit to them in provoking us. Actually they are being rational.MikeL said:Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?
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How the fuck does he know? Is he clairvoyant?FF43 said:
This:SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1108683381599100928
And this:
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/11086836276662927360 -
Pensioners thinking it won't affect them and worrying they will die before Brexit happens.SeanT said:
We have had nothing but Project Crap Your Pants for the last month, it's been relentless, there's been farmers crying on TV, Honda closing its factories, nuclear shelters being opened for the masses, you would have expected quite a few Brits to crumble and cower.IanB2 said:
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
And yet, the opposite. Magnificent. It may be stupid and suicidal, but it is also magnificent. We're yearning to jump over the cliff. Fuck it all.0 -
As Boles has made clear Common Market 2 would be the basis of a new Political Declaration for the future relationship and destination, once the Political Declaration is amended MPs could then also pass the Withdrawal AgreementRichard_Tyndall said:
The thing is though that those are destinations (Common Market 2 or Norway or Canada) to be decided in the transition period, not matters that can be discussed or negotiated whilst we are still in the EU. At least that is what the EU have been telling us for the last 3 years.HYUFD said:
Common Market 2.0 can still pass without them, they also voted to keep No Deal on the table, the Commons voted to take No Deal off the tablePhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't change what I said at all.HYUFD said:
Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordinglyPhilip_Thompson said:
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.eek said:
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?Philip_Thompson said:
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.kle4 said:
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.eek said:https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1108829531903836161
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
Gove, Leadsom, Hunt, Fox etc wouldn't reportedly.
So they are completely irrelevant to the current question of the Withdrawal Agreement.0 -
Interesting , it gives enough time for May to be removed after her deal crashes and burns again .AramintaMoonbeamQC said:So...
According to Katya Adler:
Leaders agreeing to unconditional extension till 12 April unconditionally. If MPs approve the #Brexit deal next week, there’s a short extension till 22 May. If UK wants more time will need to tell EU by 12 April (so as to be able to take part in elex for European Parliament0 -
kle4 said:
He's right parliament should get that chance, but he cannot help himself by saying she is threatening the country with no deal. Parliament put that threat in place and has always had the power to remove it, and no only through voting for the deal.williamglenn said:
This “parliament taking control” shizz ain’t gonna fly in its current form, IMO.
There are two outcomes TM is prepared to deliver - Deal or no Deal, and now. An indicative motion demanding Norway or Ref2 or free unicorns for Edinburgh Zoo is going to have the same effect as the one taking No Deal off the table.
So, if the will of Parliament is to cook up an outcome other than those (either next week or similarly close to the next deadline), it will need to be imposed by asking a grown-up to put the relevant ingredients in the oven. Which probably means a VONC and some coming together about who follows, probably on the universal understanding they’ll only be in the job for six weeks.
And I think that’s quite a big ask - given Corbyn won’t even do tea and biccies with Umunna, and any such solution probably requires front bench buy-in (or at least acquiescence) from both main parties so as not to leave 300 MPs defying the whip.0 -
So we leave with No Deal on 12 April?0
-
It's not happening that way tho, is it? We've now told them we will go to No Deal if we don't get a Deal. We have decided our fate, not them.SouthamObserver said:
If they want to change their minds and be more generous, great, but this is not them handing down a fait accompli.0 -
Your trust in politicians’ ability to shield the British public from a disastrous No Deal is quite something.Philip_Thompson said:
You'd have thought people would have learnt by now the British public don't react well to Project Fear scaremongering.SeanT said:
We have had nothing but Project Crap Your Pants for the last month, it's been relentless, there's been farmers crying on TV, Honda closing its factories, nuclear shelters being opened for the masses, you would have expected quite a few Brits to crumble and cower.IanB2 said:
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
And yet, the opposite. Magnificent. It may be stupid and suicidal, but it is also magnificent. We're yearning to jump over the cliff. Fuck it all.
People aren't thick. The more bullshit gets spread, the more unbelievable it becomes, undermining the true worries.
The scare stories have gotten so stupid now. We won't have fresh food, medicine, planes won't fly. The car industry will be wiped out. Not one of those will happen. The more that gets spread, the more it gets sensible people's backs ups and we think "why are you lying to me".
The truth is mundane, no deal will be an inconvenience. There may be problems we haven't foreseen. It could cost some business.
0 -
Which part of “suggest it should be debated” did you not quite understand.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think you have misunderstood the petition systems. Unfortunately (and I mean that genuinely) it does not mean it is automatically debated. It only means it is considered by the Petitions Committee who will recommend whether or not it should be debated.eek said:
Nope we are a Parliamentary democracy. All a petition does is suggest to parliament something that should be debated - which hopefully this will be so it removes one of the 3 options from the table.kjohnw said:
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EUeek said:
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.kjohnw said:1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Then as I stated earlier the final 2 options can be decided upon and the people paid and elected to make decisions will have finally done their job and made a decision.
As an aside this petition still has a ways to go to beat the last one asking for a re-run of the referendum which reached 4.1 million signatures.
In this case and just in this case due to the very pressing deadline I regard the petition as a means for the speaker to push something onto the agenda0 -
-
https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1108840552722849793
So after the deal is either defeated or not brought next week, we have two weeks to come up with something.
Going out on a limb and being bold, I'm going to say May goes when her deal fails once more next week (the fundamentals have not changed and people are looking to say no, what with the faux offence being used as an excuse to vote no) as she would at that point lose a vote of no confidence as I expect some Tories would finally man up and vote to bring her down.
Not sure exactly what would happen after that, but I would not be entirely surprised if a GE was triggered and whoever is acting as PM has to ask for an extension on that basis.
Not really a great outcome, extension wise. Parliament has just been given time to extend its period of idiotic squabbling for a few more weeks.0 -
There are literally thousands - probably tens of thousands - of people who are more deserving of a place in a second chamber than Williams or Welby. That is a ridiculous answer.HYUFD said:
Justin Welby is Oxbridge educated and was a senior businessman, Rowan Williams is a top Oxford academic, they have more to contribute than many there and as per the nature of the role and the parishes and congregations they will have served and the Churches' charity work they have had experience of people from all walks of lifeRichard_Tyndall said:
Most of those people are there because of the individual contributions they made to their chosen fields. Bishops are there because of the status of their religion irrespective of their individual qualities.HYUFD said:
There is no reason why religious leaders should not be in the Lords in the same way ex politicians, businessmen, academics, lawyers, scientists, former sportspeople and figures in the arts arePhilip_Thompson said:
Hell no.HYUFD said:
Yes and many of those Bishops contribute more to debates than the party donor hacks who take up too many places nowadays, the same applies to the Rabbis who have had seats there and representatives of other faiths could also have a presencePhilip_Thompson said:
It's so independent it has Bishops in the Lords.Casino_Royale said:
It’s an independent, very English, church, at the centre of parishes and communities up and down the country, and it plays a useful (if somewhat left-leaning) part in our national debate.williamglenn said:
We could turn it into the Church of Windsor.Casino_Royale said:
I think it’s a fairly harmless (but also valuable) part of our cultural and historical tapestry.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope I am with Alastair on this one. If we are to use Brexit as an opportunity for real beneficial change then disestablishment is a very good place to start.Casino_Royale said:
No thanks.AlastairMeeks said:I don't feel we've had enough constitutional tinkering recently. A full separation of the church and the state is overdue. Perhaps something to look at once Brexit is uncontroversial?
I like the established CoE.
And I love giving prayers to its head, HM Queen Elizabeth, at Christmas in Winchester cathedral.
But I wouldn’t expect you to agree. I am a Conservative, after all.
I think that’s, on balance, a positive thing.
If people want to support their medieval superstitions then good luck to them, no reason it should be established though.0 -
I have zero trust in polticians abilities.SouthamObserver said:
Your trust in politicians’ ability to shield the British public from a disastrous No Deal is quite something.Philip_Thompson said:
You'd have thought people would have learnt by now the British public don't react well to Project Fear scaremongering.SeanT said:
We have had nothing but Project Crap Your Pants for the last month, it's been relentless, there's been farmers crying on TV, Honda closing its factories, nuclear shelters being opened for the masses, you would have expected quite a few Brits to crumble and cower.IanB2 said:
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
And yet, the opposite. Magnificent. It may be stupid and suicidal, but it is also magnificent. We're yearning to jump over the cliff. Fuck it all.
People aren't thick. The more bullshit gets spread, the more unbelievable it becomes, undermining the true worries.
The scare stories have gotten so stupid now. We won't have fresh food, medicine, planes won't fly. The car industry will be wiped out. Not one of those will happen. The more that gets spread, the more it gets sensible people's backs ups and we think "why are you lying to me".
The truth is mundane, no deal will be an inconvenience. There may be problems we haven't foreseen. It could cost some business.
I have trust in business and individuals abilities to shield themselves.0 -
Leave with no deal 375,654Sunil_Prasannan said:
Just for old time's sake:kjohnw said:
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EUeek said:
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.kjohnw said:1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
Revoke Article 50 1,753,194
As of right now.0 -
It would not be easy for parliament to take control, but this is not an easy issue.Harris_Tweed said:kle4 said:
He's right parliament should get that chance, but he cannot help himself by saying she is threatening the country with no deal. Parliament put that threat in place and has always had the power to remove it, and no only through voting for the deal.williamglenn said:
This “parliament taking control” shizz ain’t gonna fly in its current form, IMO.
There are two outcomes TM is prepared to deliver - Deal or no Deal, and now. An indicative motion demanding Norway or Ref2 or free unicorns for Edinburgh Zoo is going to have the same effect as the one taking No Deal off the table.
So, if the will of Parliament is to cook up an outcome other than those (either next week or similarly close to the next deadline), it will need to be imposed by asking a grown-up to put the relevant ingredients in the oven. Which probably means a VONC and some coming together about who follows, probably on the universal understanding they’ll only be in the job for six weeks.
And I think that’s quite a big ask - given Corbyn won’t even do tea and biccies with Umunna, and any such solution probably requires front bench buy-in (or at least acquiescence) from both main parties so as not to leave 300 MPs defying the whip.0 -
Except May's idea of working out what to do next will probably be to try MV4 and then insult everyone in Parliament. Possibly simultaneously.Scott_P said:0 -
More than you, obviously.SeanT said:
How the fuck does he know? Is he clairvoyant?FF43 said:
This:SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1108683381599100928
And this:
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1108683627666292736
Actually he does know about trade deals. And everyone else who also knows about trade deals thinks "No Deal" is utterly demented0 -
I'm far from a fan of Boris, but he did have the ability, or good fortune, to appoint a capable person to lead efforts on encouraging cycling in London and then supported that person to get things done. Delegation is a skill that he has over Corbyn and May.IanB2 said:
Despite his better campaigning and (on a good day) presentational skills, Boris shares most of the weaknesses you spelled out for May downthread. Boris too is a one man band, wants to lead without doing the hard work to build alliances or make compromises, hates scrutiny, has no experience of leading a group of strong-minded colleagues - on top of which, unlike May, he has no eye for or interest in detail and makes his judgements largely on the emotional bigger picture.Cyclefree said:
Boris's WA would probably involve a Garden Bridge over the Channel.IanB2 said:
Yet he has boxed himself into ever more extreme positions such that now he is shooting at 'leading' the handful of most extreme nutters.kle4 said:
Not now, but as bad as he is he is also flexible, which we need more of. He's not been flexible on the WA because he is outside and trying to become PM, but he'd twist and turn as much as he had to if he was at the top, god forbid.IanB2 said:
There is no way that Boris would improve things.Philip_Thompson said:
In hindsight even Boris would have been better than May.IanB2 said:
The answer hangs on the replacement. It is Boris keeping her in her job.Philip_Thompson said:Can I ask who here was glad May won the confidence vote last December and if you still are?
Unlike May, Boris wouldn't have dug himself into a bunker ranting and raving that nothing has changed.
And his judgment is appalling. At least we can expect May's deal to be a workable product, even if she is handling the tactics dreadfully. With Boris we'd probably have something unworkable or unaffordable.
Boris's career of lone roles - journalist, mayor - has played to his strengths, but he would be a disaster leading in the current circumstances. Boris's own self image as Churchill re-born has him like Churchill harrumphing around the country trading on charm and character; people forget the lengths those with judgement went to keeping Churchill from meddling in things he didn't understand.0 -
I know you’ve never worked on business projects but it’s remarkable how when things go badly no one was on the project / had responsibility or was sick / on holiday when the decisions were made,SeanT said:
How the fuck does he know? Is he clairvoyant?FF43 said:
This:SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1108683381599100928
And this:
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/11086836276662927360 -
I suspect something along those lines will happen now. The EU have made clear the PD is where movement is possible.HYUFD said:
As Boles has made clear Common Market 2 would be the basis of a new Political Declaration for the future relationship and destination, once the Political Declaration is amended MPs could then also pass the Withdrawal Agreement
Ironically, May's deal will probably end up getting passed in whole ...... but only once she's gone. I suppose that's proof the word 'toxic' really does apply.
0 -
They are having a probably lavish working dinner while she sits in the foyer unwrapping her sandwich from the tinfoil.Stark_Dawning said:
Who would have believed, on that sunny day in 2016, that our PM would have to skulk in the foyer while the EU bigwigs considered her plea for an Article 50 extension?Scott_P said:0 -
Who gives a tiny thimble of weasel's jizz about fucking petitions. We had a VOTE when 17.4 MILLION people said Leave.Recidivist said:
Leave with no deal 375,654Sunil_Prasannan said:
Just for old time's sake:kjohnw said:
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EUeek said:
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.kjohnw said:1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
Revoke Article 50 1,753,194
As of right now.
There's something faintly tragic about people who get hooked on these petitions, like they mean anything. I've nearly fallen for it, myself.0 -
Oh dear that is very naughty use of numbers to produce your desired result. You cannot compare two different questions (Leave vs Remain)/(Leave vs type of Remain) and say they indicate a direction of travel of opinion. It is rather dishonest.HYUFD said:
It hasn't really, YouGov had it Remain 57% Leave with No Deal 43% a few days ago and 46% for No Deal is still under 50% and 6% less than the 52% Leave got in 2016. Leavers are rallying around No Deal rather than May's Deal but a majority are still opposed to it.SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-deal-opinion-poll-theresa-may-a8831241.html0 -
NEW THReAD0
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Cambridge these days. He's master of Magdalene. He was previously at Oxford, you're right - until he took up his Cambridge job he still owned a house about ten doors down from here.HYUFD said:
Justin Welby is Oxbridge educated and was a senior businessman, Rowan Williams is a top Oxford academicRichard_Tyndall said:
Most of those people are there because of the individual contributions they made to their chosen fields. Bishops are there because of the status of their religion irrespective of their individual qualities.HYUFD said:
There is no reason why religious leaders should not be in the Lords in the same way ex politicians, businessmen, academics, lawyers, scientists, former sportspeople and figures in the arts arePhilip_Thompson said:
Hell no.HYUFD said:
Yes and many of those Bishops contribute more to debates than the party donor hacks who take up too many places nowadays, the same applies to the Rabbis who have had seats there and representatives of other faiths could also have a presencePhilip_Thompson said:
It's so independent it has Bishops in the Lords.Casino_Royale said:
It’s an independent, very English, church, at the centre of parishes and communities up and down the country, and it plays a useful (if somewhat left-leaning) part in our national debate.williamglenn said:
We could turn it into the Church of Windsor.Casino_Royale said:
I think it’s a fairly harmless (but also valuable) part of our cultural and historical tapestry.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope I am with Alastair on this one. If we are to use Brexit as an opportunity for real beneficial change then disestablishment is a very good place to start.Casino_Royale said:
No thanks.AlastairMeeks said:I don't feel we've had enough constitutional tinkering recently. A full separation of the church and the state is overdue. Perhaps something to look at once Brexit is uncontroversial?
I like the established CoE.
And I love giving prayers to its head, HM Queen Elizabeth, at Christmas in Winchester cathedral.
But I wouldn’t expect you to agree. I am a Conservative, after all.
I think that’s, on balance, a positive thing.
If people want to support their medieval superstitions then good luck to them, no reason it should be established though.0 -
NEW THREAD
0 -
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Not sure. She's said she's had enough of the game playing... I think she'll say Parliament has one last chance to vote for her deal or we'll no deal on 29th (as there would be littler material difference between No Dealing on 29th Mar and 11th Apr)Chris said:
But I could be totally wrong. 0 -
The best outcome is that MV3 goes down by more than MV2. Even May won't go for MV4 then.solarflare said:
Except May's idea of working out what to do next will probably be to try MV4 and then insult everyone in Parliament. Possibly simultaneously.Scott_P said:0 -
Am now panic buying Easter Eggs0
-
Well the Brexit elite running the country won't let us have an official vote. They like us know remain would win it easily. So we have to use this kind of thing as a proxy to show that not only is Brexit against the national interest and organised by toddlers with full nappies, but is undemocratic to boot.kjohnw said:
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EUeek said:
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.kjohnw said:1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
If you don't like online polls tell the millionaires' lickspittles that pass for a government to get the pencils and paper out.0 -
But I thought the PD is not effectively legally binding. That is why the ERG/DUP have said they will not accept just a change to the PD as opposed to reopening the WA.HYUFD said:
As Boles has made clear Common Market 2 would be the basis of a new Political Declaration for the future relationship and destination, once the Political Declaration is amended MPs could then also pass the Withdrawal AgreementRichard_Tyndall said:
The thing is though that those are destinations (Common Market 2 or Norway or Canada) to be decided in the transition period, not matters that can be discussed or negotiated whilst we are still in the EU. At least that is what the EU have been telling us for the last 3 years.HYUFD said:
Common Market 2.0 can still pass without them, they also voted to keep No Deal on the table, the Commons voted to take No Deal off the tablePhilip_Thompson said:
Which doesn't change what I said at all.HYUFD said:
Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordinglyPhilip_Thompson said:
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.eek said:
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?Philip_Thompson said:
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.kle4 said:
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.eek said:https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1108829531903836161
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
Gove, Leadsom, Hunt, Fox etc wouldn't reportedly.
So they are completely irrelevant to the current question of the Withdrawal Agreement.
But hey, I want Norway as the end point so I am not going to complain if that is what it takes to get it through. I just think if that is all they want (a change to the PD to include Norway etc) then that could have been done weeks ago.
0 -
No it is not, religion still plays an important role in the lives of many people in this country and there is a place for religious leaders in an appointed chamber amongst those from many other fieldsRichard_Tyndall said:
There are literally thousands - probably tens of thousands - of people who are more deserving of a place in a second chamber than Williams or Welby. That is a ridiculous answer.HYUFD said:
Justin Welby is Oxbrince of people from all walks of lifeRichard_Tyndall said:
Most of those people are there because of the individual contributions they made to their chosen fields. Bishops are there because of the status of their religion irrespective of their individual qualities.HYUFD said:
There is no reason why religious leaders should not be in the Lords in the same way ex politicians, businessmen, academics, lawyers, scientists, former sportspeople and figures in the arts arePhilip_Thompson said:
Hell no.HYUFD said:
Yes and many of those Bishops contribute more to debates than the party donor hacks who take up too many places nowadays, the same applies to the Rabbis who have had seats there and representatives of other faiths could also have a presencePhilip_Thompson said:
It's so independent it has Bishops in the Lords.Casino_Royale said:
It’s an independent, very English, church, at the centre of parishes and communities up and down the country, and it plays a useful (if somewhat left-leaning) part in our national debate.williamglenn said:
We could turn it into the Church of Windsor.Casino_Royale said:
I think it’s a fairly harmless (but also valuable) part of our cultural and historical tapestry.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope I am with Alastair on this one. If we are to use Brexit as an opportunity for real beneficial change then disestablishment is a very good place to start.Casino_Royale said:
No thanks.AlastairMeeks said:I don't feel we've had enough constitutional tinkering recently. A full separation of the church and the state is overdue. Perhaps something to look at once Brexit is uncontroversial?
I like the established CoE.
And I love giving prayers to its head, HM Queen Elizabeth, at Christmas in Winchester cathedral.
But I wouldn’t expect you to agree. I am a Conservative, after all.
I think that’s, on balance, a positive thing.
If people want to support their medieval superstitions then good luck to them, no reason it should be established though.0 -
Yes the WA could pass ironically once the PD has been converted to BINO. It is more the PD the soft Brexiteers and Remainers have a problem with than the WA, the ERG and the DUP have a problem with the WA and backstop fullstop but it can pass without themAndrew said:
I suspect something along those lines will happen now. The EU have made clear the PD is where movement is possible.HYUFD said:
As Boles has made clear Common Market 2 would be the basis of a new Political Declaration for the future relationship and destination, once the Political Declaration is amended MPs could then also pass the Withdrawal Agreement
Ironically, May's deal will probably end up getting passed in whole ...... but only once she's gone. I suppose that's proof the word 'toxic' really does apply.0 -
Actually, judging by that poll I just put up, I really doubt that Remain would win a 2nd vote "easily". I was beginning to think it myself, but hmm.Recidivist said:
Well the Brexit elite running the country won't let us have an official vote. They like us know remain would win it easily. So we have to use this kind of thing as a proxy to show that not only is Brexit against the national interest and organised by toddlers with full nappies, but is undemocratic to boot.kjohnw said:
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EUeek said:
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.kjohnw said:1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
If you don't like online polls tell the millionaires' lickspittles that pass for a government to get the pencils and paper out.
If we had a revote there would be a very strong possibility the Brits would say Fuck You all over again, and with added vehemence, because they weren't heard the first time.
Also, what would the Remainer campaign say? What would be their slogan?
The Leave campaign would be simple and brutally effective. TELL THEM AGAIN.0 -
You can say the 52% which produced the narrow Leave majority are not all fully behind No Deal and as a result Leave loses its majority with No Deal as YouGov has showed, 43% for No Deal Brexit v Remain is significant but nowhere near the 52% Leave got to beat Remain in the referendumRichard_Tyndall said:
Oh dear that is very naughty use of numbers to produce your desired result. You cannot compare two different questions (Leave vs Remain)/(Leave vs type of Remain) and say they indicate a direction of travel of opinion. It is rather dishonest.HYUFD said:
It hasn't really, YouGov had it Remain 57% Leave with No Deal 43% a few days ago and 46% for No Deal is still under 50% and 6% less than the 52% Leave got in 2016. Leavers are rallying around No Deal rather than May's Deal but a majority are still opposed to it.SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-deal-opinion-poll-theresa-may-a8831241.html0 -
Yes, because Slavic languages don’t have articles (they have case systems instead). My wife trained as a sociolinguist, teaches TESOL and is learning Russian in her spare time for fun. She’s got quite adept at spotting Russian trolls in the comments on articles in The Times app.Toms said:I think the Article 50 petition is straight arrows.
But this one was, I believe, not written by a native speaker of English. In particular, Slavic users of our Mother Tongue often omit definite articles.
https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/1788440 -
Why do you think Remain would win easily?Recidivist said:
Well the Brexit elite running the country won't let us have an official vote. They like us know remain would win it easily. So we have to use this kind of thing as a proxy to show that not only is Brexit against the national interest and organised by toddlers with full nappies, but is undemocratic to boot.kjohnw said:
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EUeek said:
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.kjohnw said:1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
If you don't like online polls tell the millionaires' lickspittles that pass for a government to get the pencils and paper out.0 -
You can see why the EU are good negotiators and May is clueless .
If tonights EU offer lands then they’ve boxed the lunatic in.0 -
*Appointed* is the key there.. ie not by right, but by the contribution they personally can make. Being a bishop should be no more of an automatic qualifier than a former head of Ofsted, chair of the Arts Council, someone from the Muslim Council of BritainHYUFD said:
No it is not, religion still plays an important role in the lives of many people in this country and there is a place for religious leaders in an appointed chamber amongst those from many other fields0 -
If you really think that, you should protect your family by leaving rather than spouting hyperbole on the internet.Gardenwalker said:At some stage today I realised I no longer believed my family was safe with May in charge.
She must go immediately.0 -
Or gathered round a laptop to approve the wording of the final position.IanB2 said:
They are having a probably lavish working dinner while she sits in the foyer unwrapping her sandwich from the tinfoil.Stark_Dawning said:
Who would have believed, on that sunny day in 2016, that our PM would have to skulk in the foyer while the EU bigwigs considered her plea for an Article 50 extension?Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/DTzantchev/status/11088078503972618260 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-15ScxO07kSeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.0 -
“Hey Barry.. login to PB and see what SeanT has to say about the extension offer”williamglenn said:
Or gathered round a laptop to approve the wording of the final position.IanB2 said:
They are having a probably lavish working dinner while she sits in the foyer unwrapping her sandwich from the tinfoil.Stark_Dawning said:
Who would have believed, on that sunny day in 2016, that our PM would have to skulk in the foyer while the EU bigwigs considered her plea for an Article 50 extension?Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/DTzantchev/status/1108807850397261826
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No you can't say anything based on two different questions. How many people don't like either May's deal or No deal but still won't vote Remain?HYUFD said:
You can say the 52% which produced the narrow Leave majority are not all fully behind No Deal and as a result Leave loses its majority with No Deal as YouGov has showed, 43% for No Deal Brexit v Remain is significant but nowhere near the 52% Leave got to beat Remain in the referendumRichard_Tyndall said:
Oh dear that is very naughty use of numbers to produce your desired result. You cannot compare two different questions (Leave vs Remain)/(Leave vs type of Remain) and say they indicate a direction of travel of opinion. It is rather dishonest.HYUFD said:
It hasn't really, YouGov had it Remain 57% Leave with No Deal 43% a few days ago and 46% for No Deal is still under 50% and 6% less than the 52% Leave got in 2016. Leavers are rallying around No Deal rather than May's Deal but a majority are still opposed to it.SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-deal-opinion-poll-theresa-may-a8831241.html
If you want to make the direct comparison as you did in your original comment then the only comparison is polling asking the same question as the referendum. Anything else is meaningless in terms of judging how peoples views have changed.0 -
Exactly right.Harris_Tweed said:
*Appointed* is the key there.. ie not by right, but by the contribution they personally can make. Being a bishop should be no more of an automatic qualifier than a former head of Ofsted, chair of the Arts Council, someone from the Muslim Council of BritainHYUFD said:
No it is not, religion still plays an important role in the lives of many people in this country and there is a place for religious leaders in an appointed chamber amongst those from many other fields0 -
I would have no problem with any of those being there eitherHarris_Tweed said:
*Appointed* is the key there.. ie not by right, but by the contribution they personally can make. Being a bishop should be no more of an automatic qualifier than a former head of Ofsted, chair of the Arts Council, someone from the Muslim Council of BritainHYUFD said:
No it is not, religion still plays an important role in the lives of many people in this country and there is a place for religious leaders in an appointed chamber amongst those from many other fields0 -
Yes I absolutely can say it and I will. As YouGov showed almost 60% of voters would vote for Remain over No Deal and 60% for Remain over the Deal so those voters who do not like May's Deal or No Deal will vote Remain ie they want BINO Brexit only.Richard_Tyndall said:
No you can't say anything based on two different questions. How many people don't like either May's deal or No deal but still won't vote Remain?HYUFD said:
You can say the 52% which produced the narrow Leave majority are not all fully behind No Deal and as a result Leave loses its majority with No Deal as YouGov has showed, 43% for No Deal Brexit v Remain is significant but nowhere near the 52% Leave got to beat Remain in the referendumRichard_Tyndall said:
Oh dear that is very naughty use of numbers to produce your desired result. You cannot compare two different questions (Leave vs Remain)/(Leave vs type of Remain) and say they indicate a direction of travel of opinion. It is rather dishonest.HYUFD said:
It hasn't really, YouGov had it Remain 57% Leave with No Deal 43% a few days ago and 46% for No Deal is still under 50% and 6% less than the 52% Leave got in 2016. Leavers are rallying around No Deal rather than May's Deal but a majority are still opposed to it.SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-deal-opinion-poll-theresa-may-a8831241.html
If you want to make the direct comparison as you did in your original comment then the only comparison is polling asking the same question as the referendum. Anything else is meaningless in terms of judging how peoples views have changed.
The original question only asked about Leaving, not to what, once the actual mode of Leaving is asked then it is clear Remain beats hard Brexit now0 -
For want of a better word, "exactly".Richard_Tyndall said:
I think you have misunderstood the petition systems. Unfortunately (and I mean that genuinely) it does not mean it is automatically debated. It only means it is considered by the Petitions Committee who will recommend whether or not it should be debated.eek said:
Nope we are a Parliamentary democracy. All a petition does is suggest to parliament something that should be debated - which hopefully this will be so it removes one of the 3 options from the table.kjohnw said:
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EUeek said:
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.kjohnw said:1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Then as I stated earlier the final 2 options can be decided upon and the people paid and elected to make decisions will have finally done their job and made a decision.
As an aside this petition still has a ways to go to beat the last one asking for a re-run of the referendum which reached 4.1 million signatures.
These petitions are like self selecting opinion polls - i.e. practically useless.
For the record, I am sure than 2 million (or 3 or 4 or even 5 million) people feel strongly enough about leaving the EU that they'll sign an online petition. That doesn't obviate the fact that 17.2 million people voted to Leave.
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If you consult the fabled PBCX, you will note that at least three PB regulars are switcheroos - your good self, Slackbladder and Rochdale Pioneer. Eek will be the next to flip!kle4 said:
Anecdotal, I know, but I know several people who voted leave who would not bother to vote in a second referendum because what would be the point. I would not be surprised to see a lot of that, aided by diminishment of enthusiasm from others like myself.OblitusSumMe said:
Yes. It's the same spirit that would probably see Leave win a second referendum by a country mile.SeanT said:Has this been posted?
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
There is something rousing about that spirit, but it's more suitable to stoicism in the face of terror threats, etc, and having it create a crisis to be stoic in is somewhat perverse.
It could make a fine film, but I don't want to live through it.0
