Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.
Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordingly
Which doesn't change what I said at all.
Gove, Leadsom, Hunt, Fox etc wouldn't reportedly.
Common Market 2.0 can still pass without them, they also voted to keep No Deal on the table, the Commons voted to take No Deal off the table
The thing is though that those are destinations (Common Market 2 or Norway or Canada) to be decided in the transition period, not matters that can be discussed or negotiated whilst we are still in the EU. At least that is what the EU have been telling us for the last 3 years.
So they are completely irrelevant to the current question of the Withdrawal Agreement.
Who would have believed, on that sunny day in 2016, that our PM would have to skulk in the foyer while the EU bigwigs considered her plea for an Article 50 extension?
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
So how did I vote in the referendum and what do I do for a living. I nswered both those points earlier today so it shouldn’t be difficult to find out why you are wrong in your viewpoint.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Perhaps politicians should lie less often and less blatantly
If comments from the Chief Whip are true then May surely must go .
Everyone has known that for quite some time. No one else wants the job or they'd have acted by now. I don't think even May wants the job but she won't resign and they so far won't sack her either so she stumbles along blindly doing the best she can, which is not good.
Politicians need to stop whining all the time, that's our job. If she won't fall on her sword then it is their job to push her onto it, it isn't a complicated puzzle.
If comments from the Chief Whip are true then May surely must go .
What have I missed?
He has basically said what the rest of us were all thinking which is that her comments last night were appalling and there is no way he can be expected to whip the party when she has accused them all of acting against the country.
Unpopular opinion but the real threat of No Deal is the most valuable card May has left in her hand. If she can keep that card until the last minute it’s bound to be in her favour, because there’s no way the Irish will want No Deal, and there’s no way the EU would want Ireland to suffer a No Deal, with all the political and financial turmoil that’ll come with it.
The smart Remainers in parliament, including Bercow, know this. They are desperate to achieve a Revoke and they know the best way to do that is to deprive May of the best card she has.
If comments from the Chief Whip are true then May surely must go .
What have I missed?
He has basically said what the rest of us were all thinking which is that her comments last night were appalling and there is no way he can be expected to whip the party when she has accused them all of acting against the country.
I think the only way this gets sorted is to follow the Ripley Doctrine regarding Westminster.
+1 Once this is all over, a bonfire (metaphorical, of course) of the present lot who have brought us to this crisis needs to happen. Sack the lot of em. Start again.
And when that doesn't happen and an election, whenever it happens, returns the same old shower?
I think they've handled themselves very poorly, but let's not pretend even for a minute that the same party lines will broadly apply and the same kind of candidates will get appointed. We reward that behaviour.
Regardless of the eventual outcome, I think the long term effect of the omnishambles of the last couple of years will be a further corrosion of our trust in the political class - something that began with the expenses scandal (perhaps earlier - Iraq? Back to basics?) but has been building for a long time.
I certainly won't be voting Conservative next time around, partly due to the sheer idiocy and illiberal nature of the wanking license but mostly due to the utter mishandling of Brexit (to quote, "f**k business" is not what I voted for). But I won't be voting for anyone else either.
I think a lot of people will either become disengaged from the political process and abstain. The others will be swept up by demagogues promising change, as so many have on the continent or across the pond.
Brexit has shown our system isn't fit for purpose. But to your point, to continue to vote for this shower will only encourage them.
I think the Article 50 petition is straight arrows.
But this one was, I believe, not written by a native speaker of English. In particular, Slavic users of our Mother Tongue often omit definite articles.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Yes. It's the same spirit that would probably see Leave win a second referendum by a country mile.
There is something rousing about that spirit, but it's more suitable to stoicism in the face of terror threats, etc, and having it create a crisis to be stoic in is somewhat perverse.
It could make a fine film, but I don't want to live through it.
Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?
The UK has gone completely mad and there is no benefit to them in provoking us. Actually they are being rational.
It's not about provoking us, it's a question of what action can they take which achieves a better aim for them. Does an unconditional extension do that? I'm not sure it does, it feels like their version of can kicking because they know a short one with conditions means we crash out and while they are more prepared for that than we are, they'd rather delay it as long as possible.
I pity the bloke who presents Outside Source on the Beeb news channel. He's been trying to spin out 2 hours of no news by interviewing other journos, and playing with his giant touchscreen.
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.
Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordingly
Which doesn't change what I said at all.
Gove, Leadsom, Hunt, Fox etc wouldn't reportedly.
Common Market 2.0 can still pass without them, they also voted to keep No Deal on the table, the Commons voted to take No Deal off the table
The thing is though that those are destinations (Common Market 2 or Norway or Canada) to be decided in the transition period, not matters that can be discussed or negotiated whilst we are still in the EU. At least that is what the EU have been telling us for the last 3 years.
So they are completely irrelevant to the current question of the Withdrawal Agreement.
Surely a final destination that the EU agrees with and does object to make the intermediate stages bearable for both the UK and the EU?
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
We have had nothing but Project Crap Your Pants for the last month, it's been relentless, there's been farmers crying on TV, Honda closing its factories, nuclear shelters being opened for the masses, you would have expected quite a few Brits to crumble and cower.
And yet, the opposite. Magnificent. It may be stupid and suicidal, but it is also magnificent. We're yearning to jump over the cliff. Fuck it all.
Unpopular opinion but the real threat of No Deal is the most valuable card May has left in her hand. If she can keep that card until the last minute it’s bound to be in her favour, because there’s no way the Irish will want No Deal, and there’s no way the EU would want Ireland to suffer a No Deal, with all the political and financial turmoil that’ll come with it.
The smart Remainers in parliament, including Bercow, know this. They are desperate to achieve a Revoke and they know the best way to do that is to deprive May of the best card she has.
Of course. That's been obvious from the start.
If one positive thing has come from this, its that no deal is being taken seriously. Three years too late.
Currently watching Greg Hands MP taking part in a debate on Brexiteers on German TV. Didn’t know he was fluent but he’s very confident. Apparently he’s blaming the EU for Everything which is a pretty tough message for his audience. Still doing much better than May last night...
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Isn't it great to have taken back control so decisively?
In case you missed it... we haven't left yet.
that's in the lap of the gods
It's so easy, but I can't do it So risky, but I gotta chance it So funny, there's nothing to laugh about My money, that's all you wanna talk about I can see what you want me to be But I'm no fool It's in the lap of the gods
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Yes. It's the same spirit that would probably see Leave win a second referendum by a country mile.
There is something rousing about that spirit, but it's more suitable to stoicism in the face of terror threats, etc, and having it create a crisis to be stoic in is somewhat perverse.
It could make a fine film, but I don't want to live through it.
Anecdotal, I know, but I know several people who voted leave who would not bother to vote in a second referendum because what would be the point. I would not be surprised to see a lot of that, aided by diminishment of enthusiasm from others like myself.
I think the only way this gets sorted is to follow the Ripley Doctrine regarding Westminster.
+1 Once this is all over, a bonfire (metaphorical, of course) of the present lot who have brought us to this crisis needs to happen. Sack the lot of em. Start again.
And when that doesn't happen and an election, whenever it happens, returns the same old shower?
I think they've handled themselves very poorly, but let's not pretend even for a minute that the same party lines will broadly apply and the same kind of candidates will get appointed. We reward that behaviour.
Regardless of the eventual outcome, I think the long term effect of the omnishambles of the last couple of years will be a further corrosion of our trust in the political class - something that began with the expenses scandal (perhaps earlier - Iraq? Back to basics?) but has been building for a long time.
I certainly won't be voting Conservative next time around, partly due to the sheer idiocy and illiberal nature of the wanking license but mostly due to the utter mishandling of Brexit (to quote, "f**k business" is not what I voted for). But I won't be voting for anyone else either.
I think a lot of people will either become disengaged from the political process and abstain. The others will be swept up by demagogues promising change, as so many have on the continent or across the pond.
Brexit has shown our system isn't fit for purpose. But to your point, to continue to vote for this shower will only encourage them.
Most people don’t vote for their favourite party, they vote for the party they dislike least. And that makes not voting very difficult for many people.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
It hasn't really, YouGov had it Remain 57% Leave with No Deal 43% a few days ago and 46% for No Deal is still under 50% and 6% less than the 52% Leave got in 2016. Leavers are rallying around No Deal rather than May's Deal but a majority are still opposed to it.
Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?
I expect the original conditional one was an attempt to help May give her deal a push. They now see how badly May is handling things, realise her deal is doomed anyway, and probably understand that the EU trying to influence MPs could easily backfire.
Unlike May, they are planning ahead, and trying to avoid having to spend another load of time in summit at the end of next week discussing the whole thing again, after the deal is rejected again. So they are looking for a decision that covers all bases.
And an astute comment that Mrs May reminds of Honecker in the last days of the GDR. In fact there are strong parallels between Brexit and East Germany. A lot of the motivations are the same.
Hopefuly, because Honecker had resigned before the 9th of November 1989
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
This whole impasse is about politicians covering their backs.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Nope we are a Parliamentary democracy. All a petition does is suggest to parliament something that should be debated - which hopefully this will be so it removes one of the 3 options from the table.
Then as I stated earlier the final 2 options can be decided upon and the people paid and elected to make decisions will have finally done their job and made a decision.
I think you have misunderstood the petition systems. Unfortunately (and I mean that genuinely) it does not mean it is automatically debated. It only means it is considered by the Petitions Committee who will recommend whether or not it should be debated.
As an aside this petition still has a ways to go to beat the last one asking for a re-run of the referendum which reached 4.1 million signatures.
Leaders agreeing to unconditional extension till 12 April unconditionally. If MPs approve the #Brexit deal next week, there’s a short extension till 22 May. If UK wants more time will need to tell EU by 12 April (so as to be able to take part in elex for European Parliament
I don't feel we've had enough constitutional tinkering recently. A full separation of the church and the state is overdue. Perhaps something to look at once Brexit is uncontroversial?
No thanks.
I like the established CoE.
Nope I am with Alastair on this one. If we are to use Brexit as an opportunity for real beneficial change then disestablishment is a very good place to start.
I think it’s a fairly harmless (but also valuable) part of our cultural and historical tapestry.
And I love giving prayers to its head, HM Queen Elizabeth, at Christmas in Winchester cathedral.
But I wouldn’t expect you to agree. I am a Conservative, after all.
We could turn it into the Church of Windsor.
It’s an independent, very English, church, at the centre of parishes and communities up and down the country, and it plays a useful (if somewhat left-leaning) part in our national debate.
I think that’s, on balance, a positive thing.
It's so independent it has Bishops in the Lords.
If people want to support their medieval superstitions then good luck to them, no reason it should be established though.
Yes and many of those Bishops contribute more to debates than the party donor hacks who take up too many places nowadays, the same applies to the Rabbis who have had seats there and representatives of other faiths could also have a presence
Hell no.
There is no reason why religious leaders should not be in the Lords in the same way ex politicians, businessmen, academics, lawyers, scientists, former sportspeople and figures in the arts are
Most of those people are there because of the individual contributions they made to their chosen fields. Bishops are there because of the status of their religion irrespective of their individual qualities.
Justin Welby is Oxbridge educated and was a senior businessman, Rowan Williams is a top Oxford academic, they have more to contribute than many there and as per the nature of the role and the parishes and congregations they will have served and the Churches' charity work they have had experience of people from all walks of life
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
We have had nothing but Project Crap Your Pants for the last month, it's been relentless, there's been farmers crying on TV, Honda closing its factories, nuclear shelters being opened for the masses, you would have expected quite a few Brits to crumble and cower.
And yet, the opposite. Magnificent. It may be stupid and suicidal, but it is also magnificent. We're yearning to jump over the cliff. Fuck it all.
You'd have thought people would have learnt by now the British public don't react well to Project Fear scaremongering.
People aren't thick. The more bullshit gets spread, the more unbelievable it becomes, undermining the true worries.
The scare stories have gotten so stupid now. We won't have fresh food, medicine, planes won't fly. The car industry will be wiped out. Not one of those will happen. The more that gets spread, the more it gets sensible people's backs ups and we think "why are you lying to me".
The truth is mundane, no deal will be an inconvenience. There may be problems we haven't foreseen. It could cost some business.
Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?
The UK has gone completely mad and there is no benefit to them in provoking us. Actually they are being rational.
It's not about provoking us, it's a question of what action can they take which achieves a better aim for them. Does an unconditional extension do that? I'm not sure it does, it feels like their version of can kicking because they know a short one with conditions means we crash out and while they are more prepared for that than we are, they'd rather delay it as long as possible.
I think it comes to the same thing. I would add that the EU previously liked the cliff edge because it gave them leverage. Now they no longer see if in their interest. No Deal is lose/lose big time. Difference is the EU realises that.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
We have had nothing but Project Crap Your Pants for the last month, it's been relentless, there's been farmers crying on TV, Honda closing its factories, nuclear shelters being opened for the masses, you would have expected quite a few Brits to crumble and cower.
And yet, the opposite. Magnificent. It may be stupid and suicidal, but it is also magnificent. We're yearning to jump over the cliff. Fuck it all.
Pensioners thinking it won't affect them and worrying they will die before Brexit happens.
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.
Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordingly
Which doesn't change what I said at all.
Gove, Leadsom, Hunt, Fox etc wouldn't reportedly.
Common Market 2.0 can still pass without them, they also voted to keep No Deal on the table, the Commons voted to take No Deal off the table
The thing is though that those are destinations (Common Market 2 or Norway or Canada) to be decided in the transition period, not matters that can be discussed or negotiated whilst we are still in the EU. At least that is what the EU have been telling us for the last 3 years.
So they are completely irrelevant to the current question of the Withdrawal Agreement.
As Boles has made clear Common Market 2 would be the basis of a new Political Declaration for the future relationship and destination, once the Political Declaration is amended MPs could then also pass the Withdrawal Agreement
Leaders agreeing to unconditional extension till 12 April unconditionally. If MPs approve the #Brexit deal next week, there’s a short extension till 22 May. If UK wants more time will need to tell EU by 12 April (so as to be able to take part in elex for European Parliament
Interesting , it gives enough time for May to be removed after her deal crashes and burns again .
He's right parliament should get that chance, but he cannot help himself by saying she is threatening the country with no deal. Parliament put that threat in place and has always had the power to remove it, and no only through voting for the deal.
This “parliament taking control” shizz ain’t gonna fly in its current form, IMO.
There are two outcomes TM is prepared to deliver - Deal or no Deal, and now. An indicative motion demanding Norway or Ref2 or free unicorns for Edinburgh Zoo is going to have the same effect as the one taking No Deal off the table.
So, if the will of Parliament is to cook up an outcome other than those (either next week or similarly close to the next deadline), it will need to be imposed by asking a grown-up to put the relevant ingredients in the oven. Which probably means a VONC and some coming together about who follows, probably on the universal understanding they’ll only be in the job for six weeks.
And I think that’s quite a big ask - given Corbyn won’t even do tea and biccies with Umunna, and any such solution probably requires front bench buy-in (or at least acquiescence) from both main parties so as not to leave 300 MPs defying the whip.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
We have had nothing but Project Crap Your Pants for the last month, it's been relentless, there's been farmers crying on TV, Honda closing its factories, nuclear shelters being opened for the masses, you would have expected quite a few Brits to crumble and cower.
And yet, the opposite. Magnificent. It may be stupid and suicidal, but it is also magnificent. We're yearning to jump over the cliff. Fuck it all.
You'd have thought people would have learnt by now the British public don't react well to Project Fear scaremongering.
People aren't thick. The more bullshit gets spread, the more unbelievable it becomes, undermining the true worries.
The scare stories have gotten so stupid now. We won't have fresh food, medicine, planes won't fly. The car industry will be wiped out. Not one of those will happen. The more that gets spread, the more it gets sensible people's backs ups and we think "why are you lying to me".
The truth is mundane, no deal will be an inconvenience. There may be problems we haven't foreseen. It could cost some business.
Your trust in politicians’ ability to shield the British public from a disastrous No Deal is quite something.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Nope we are a Parliamentary democracy. All a petition does is suggest to parliament something that should be debated - which hopefully this will be so it removes one of the 3 options from the table.
Then as I stated earlier the final 2 options can be decided upon and the people paid and elected to make decisions will have finally done their job and made a decision.
I think you have misunderstood the petition systems. Unfortunately (and I mean that genuinely) it does not mean it is automatically debated. It only means it is considered by the Petitions Committee who will recommend whether or not it should be debated.
As an aside this petition still has a ways to go to beat the last one asking for a re-run of the referendum which reached 4.1 million signatures.
Which part of “suggest it should be debated” did you not quite understand.
In this case and just in this case due to the very pressing deadline I regard the petition as a means for the speaker to push something onto the agenda
Going out on a limb and being bold, I'm going to say May goes when her deal fails once more next week (the fundamentals have not changed and people are looking to say no, what with the faux offence being used as an excuse to vote no) as she would at that point lose a vote of no confidence as I expect some Tories would finally man up and vote to bring her down.
Not sure exactly what would happen after that, but I would not be entirely surprised if a GE was triggered and whoever is acting as PM has to ask for an extension on that basis.
Not really a great outcome, extension wise. Parliament has just been given time to extend its period of idiotic squabbling for a few more weeks.
I don't feel we've had enough constitutional tinkering recently. A full separation of the church and the state is overdue. Perhaps something to look at once Brexit is uncontroversial?
No thanks.
I like the established CoE.
Nope I am with Alastair on this one. If we are to use Brexit as an opportunity for real beneficial change then disestablishment is a very good place to start.
I think it’s a fairly harmless (but also valuable) part of our cultural and historical tapestry.
And I love giving prayers to its head, HM Queen Elizabeth, at Christmas in Winchester cathedral.
But I wouldn’t expect you to agree. I am a Conservative, after all.
We could turn it into the Church of Windsor.
It’s an independent, very English, church, at the centre of parishes and communities up and down the country, and it plays a useful (if somewhat left-leaning) part in our national debate.
I think that’s, on balance, a positive thing.
It's so independent it has Bishops in the Lords.
If people want to support their medieval superstitions then good luck to them, no reason it should be established though.
Yes and many of those Bishops contribute more to debates than the party donor hacks who take up too many places nowadays, the same applies to the Rabbis who have had seats there and representatives of other faiths could also have a presence
Hell no.
There is no reason why religious leaders should not be in the Lords in the same way ex politicians, businessmen, academics, lawyers, scientists, former sportspeople and figures in the arts are
Most of those people are there because of the individual contributions they made to their chosen fields. Bishops are there because of the status of their religion irrespective of their individual qualities.
Justin Welby is Oxbridge educated and was a senior businessman, Rowan Williams is a top Oxford academic, they have more to contribute than many there and as per the nature of the role and the parishes and congregations they will have served and the Churches' charity work they have had experience of people from all walks of life
There are literally thousands - probably tens of thousands - of people who are more deserving of a place in a second chamber than Williams or Welby. That is a ridiculous answer.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Is Sparta some new abbreviation for margin of error?
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
We have had nothing but Project Crap Your Pants for the last month, it's been relentless, there's been farmers crying on TV, Honda closing its factories, nuclear shelters being opened for the masses, you would have expected quite a few Brits to crumble and cower.
And yet, the opposite. Magnificent. It may be stupid and suicidal, but it is also magnificent. We're yearning to jump over the cliff. Fuck it all.
You'd have thought people would have learnt by now the British public don't react well to Project Fear scaremongering.
People aren't thick. The more bullshit gets spread, the more unbelievable it becomes, undermining the true worries.
The scare stories have gotten so stupid now. We won't have fresh food, medicine, planes won't fly. The car industry will be wiped out. Not one of those will happen. The more that gets spread, the more it gets sensible people's backs ups and we think "why are you lying to me".
The truth is mundane, no deal will be an inconvenience. There may be problems we haven't foreseen. It could cost some business.
Your trust in politicians’ ability to shield the British public from a disastrous No Deal is quite something.
I have zero trust in polticians abilities.
I have trust in business and individuals abilities to shield themselves.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Just for old time's sake:
Leave 52% Remain 48%
Leave with no deal 375,654 Revoke Article 50 1,753,194
He's right parliament should get that chance, but he cannot help himself by saying she is threatening the country with no deal. Parliament put that threat in place and has always had the power to remove it, and no only through voting for the deal.
This “parliament taking control” shizz ain’t gonna fly in its current form, IMO.
There are two outcomes TM is prepared to deliver - Deal or no Deal, and now. An indicative motion demanding Norway or Ref2 or free unicorns for Edinburgh Zoo is going to have the same effect as the one taking No Deal off the table.
So, if the will of Parliament is to cook up an outcome other than those (either next week or similarly close to the next deadline), it will need to be imposed by asking a grown-up to put the relevant ingredients in the oven. Which probably means a VONC and some coming together about who follows, probably on the universal understanding they’ll only be in the job for six weeks.
And I think that’s quite a big ask - given Corbyn won’t even do tea and biccies with Umunna, and any such solution probably requires front bench buy-in (or at least acquiescence) from both main parties so as not to leave 300 MPs defying the whip.
It would not be easy for parliament to take control, but this is not an easy issue.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Can I ask who here was glad May won the confidence vote last December and if you still are?
The answer hangs on the replacement. It is Boris keeping her in her job.
In hindsight even Boris would have been better than May.
Unlike May, Boris wouldn't have dug himself into a bunker ranting and raving that nothing has changed.
There is no way that Boris would improve things.
Not now, but as bad as he is he is also flexible, which we need more of. He's not been flexible on the WA because he is outside and trying to become PM, but he'd twist and turn as much as he had to if he was at the top, god forbid.
Yet he has boxed himself into ever more extreme positions such that now he is shooting at 'leading' the handful of most extreme nutters.
And his judgment is appalling. At least we can expect May's deal to be a workable product, even if she is handling the tactics dreadfully. With Boris we'd probably have something unworkable or unaffordable.
Boris's WA would probably involve a Garden Bridge over the Channel.
Despite his better campaigning and (on a good day) presentational skills, Boris shares most of the weaknesses you spelled out for May downthread. Boris too is a one man band, wants to lead without doing the hard work to build alliances or make compromises, hates scrutiny, has no experience of leading a group of strong-minded colleagues - on top of which, unlike May, he has no eye for or interest in detail and makes his judgements largely on the emotional bigger picture.
Boris's career of lone roles - journalist, mayor - has played to his strengths, but he would be a disaster leading in the current circumstances. Boris's own self image as Churchill re-born has him like Churchill harrumphing around the country trading on charm and character; people forget the lengths those with judgement went to keeping Churchill from meddling in things he didn't understand.
I'm far from a fan of Boris, but he did have the ability, or good fortune, to appoint a capable person to lead efforts on encouraging cycling in London and then supported that person to get things done. Delegation is a skill that he has over Corbyn and May.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
I know you’ve never worked on business projects but it’s remarkable how when things go badly no one was on the project / had responsibility or was sick / on holiday when the decisions were made,
As Boles has made clear Common Market 2 would be the basis of a new Political Declaration for the future relationship and destination, once the Political Declaration is amended MPs could then also pass the Withdrawal Agreement
I suspect something along those lines will happen now. The EU have made clear the PD is where movement is possible.
Ironically, May's deal will probably end up getting passed in whole ...... but only once she's gone. I suppose that's proof the word 'toxic' really does apply.
Who would have believed, on that sunny day in 2016, that our PM would have to skulk in the foyer while the EU bigwigs considered her plea for an Article 50 extension?
They are having a probably lavish working dinner while she sits in the foyer unwrapping her sandwich from the tinfoil.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Just for old time's sake:
Leave 52% Remain 48%
Leave with no deal 375,654 Revoke Article 50 1,753,194
As of right now.
Who gives a tiny thimble of weasel's jizz about fucking petitions. We had a VOTE when 17.4 MILLION people said Leave.
There's something faintly tragic about people who get hooked on these petitions, like they mean anything. I've nearly fallen for it, myself.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
It hasn't really, YouGov had it Remain 57% Leave with No Deal 43% a few days ago and 46% for No Deal is still under 50% and 6% less than the 52% Leave got in 2016. Leavers are rallying around No Deal rather than May's Deal but a majority are still opposed to it.
Oh dear that is very naughty use of numbers to produce your desired result. You cannot compare two different questions (Leave vs Remain)/(Leave vs type of Remain) and say they indicate a direction of travel of opinion. It is rather dishonest.
I don't feel we've had enough constitutional tinkering recently. A full separation of the church and the state is overdue. Perhaps something to look at once Brexit is uncontroversial?
No thanks.
I like the established CoE.
Nope I am with Alastair on this one. If we are to use Brexit as an opportunity for real beneficial change then disestablishment is a very good place to start.
I think it’s a fairly harmless (but also valuable) part of our cultural and historical tapestry.
And I love giving prayers to its head, HM Queen Elizabeth, at Christmas in Winchester cathedral.
But I wouldn’t expect you to agree. I am a Conservative, after all.
We could turn it into the Church of Windsor.
It’s an independent, very English, church, at the centre of parishes and communities up and down the country, and it plays a useful (if somewhat left-leaning) part in our national debate.
I think that’s, on balance, a positive thing.
It's so independent it has Bishops in the Lords.
If people want to support their medieval superstitions then good luck to them, no reason it should be established though.
Yes and many of those Bishops contribute more to debates than the party donor hacks who take up too many places nowadays, the same applies to the Rabbis who have had seats there and representatives of other faiths could also have a presence
Hell no.
There is no reason why religious leaders should not be in the Lords in the same way ex politicians, businessmen, academics, lawyers, scientists, former sportspeople and figures in the arts are
Most of those people are there because of the individual contributions they made to their chosen fields. Bishops are there because of the status of their religion irrespective of their individual qualities.
Justin Welby is Oxbridge educated and was a senior businessman, Rowan Williams is a top Oxford academic
Cambridge these days. He's master of Magdalene. He was previously at Oxford, you're right - until he took up his Cambridge job he still owned a house about ten doors down from here.
I have a feeling we're leaving with NO DEAL next week (29th March)
Surely Theresa will keep trying to get the deal through for another fortnight, if she's being given the option? Just as a Pavlovian reflex action.
Not sure. She's said she's had enough of the game playing... I think she'll say Parliament has one last chance to vote for her deal or we'll no deal on 29th (as there would be littler material difference between No Dealing on 29th Mar and 11th Apr)
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Well the Brexit elite running the country won't let us have an official vote. They like us know remain would win it easily. So we have to use this kind of thing as a proxy to show that not only is Brexit against the national interest and organised by toddlers with full nappies, but is undemocratic to boot.
If you don't like online polls tell the millionaires' lickspittles that pass for a government to get the pencils and paper out.
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.
Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordingly
Which doesn't change what I said at all.
Gove, Leadsom, Hunt, Fox etc wouldn't reportedly.
Common Market 2.0 can still pass without them, they also voted to keep No Deal on the table, the Commons voted to take No Deal off the table
The thing is though that those are destinations (Common Market 2 or Norway or Canada) to be decided in the transition period, not matters that can be discussed or negotiated whilst we are still in the EU. At least that is what the EU have been telling us for the last 3 years.
So they are completely irrelevant to the current question of the Withdrawal Agreement.
As Boles has made clear Common Market 2 would be the basis of a new Political Declaration for the future relationship and destination, once the Political Declaration is amended MPs could then also pass the Withdrawal Agreement
But I thought the PD is not effectively legally binding. That is why the ERG/DUP have said they will not accept just a change to the PD as opposed to reopening the WA.
But hey, I want Norway as the end point so I am not going to complain if that is what it takes to get it through. I just think if that is all they want (a change to the PD to include Norway etc) then that could have been done weeks ago.
I don't feel we've had enough constitutional tinkering recently. A full separation of the church and the state is overdue. Perhaps something to look at once Brexit is uncontroversial?
No thanks.
I like the established CoE.
Nope I am with Alastair on this one. If we are to use Brexit as an opportunity for real beneficial change then disestablishment is a very good place to start.
I think it’s a fairly harmless (but also valuable) part of our cultural and historical tapestry.
And I love giving prayers to its head, HM Queen Elizabeth, at Christmas in Winchester cathedral.
But I wouldn’t expect you to agree. I am a Conservative, after all.
We could turn it into the Church of Windsor.
It’s an independent, very English, church, at the centre of parishes and communities up and down the country, and it plays a useful (if somewhat left-leaning) part in our national debate.
I think that’s, on balance, a positive thing.
It's so independent it has Bishops in the Lords.
If people want to support their medieval superstitions then good luck to them, no reason it should be established though.
Yes and many of those Bishops contribute more to debates than the party donor hacks who take up too many places nowadays, the same applies to the Rabbis who have had seats there and representatives of other faiths could also have a presence
Hell no.
There is no reason why religious leaders should not be in the Lords in the same way ex politicians, businessmen, academics, lawyers, scientists, former sportspeople and figures in the arts are
Most of those people are there because of the individual contributions they made to their chosen fields. Bishops are there because of the status of their religion irrespective of their individual qualities.
Justin Welby is Oxbrince of people from all walks of life
There are literally thousands - probably tens of thousands - of people who are more deserving of a place in a second chamber than Williams or Welby. That is a ridiculous answer.
No it is not, religion still plays an important role in the lives of many people in this country and there is a place for religious leaders in an appointed chamber amongst those from many other fields
As Boles has made clear Common Market 2 would be the basis of a new Political Declaration for the future relationship and destination, once the Political Declaration is amended MPs could then also pass the Withdrawal Agreement
I suspect something along those lines will happen now. The EU have made clear the PD is where movement is possible.
Ironically, May's deal will probably end up getting passed in whole ...... but only once she's gone. I suppose that's proof the word 'toxic' really does apply.
Yes the WA could pass ironically once the PD has been converted to BINO. It is more the PD the soft Brexiteers and Remainers have a problem with than the WA, the ERG and the DUP have a problem with the WA and backstop fullstop but it can pass without them
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Well the Brexit elite running the country won't let us have an official vote. They like us know remain would win it easily. So we have to use this kind of thing as a proxy to show that not only is Brexit against the national interest and organised by toddlers with full nappies, but is undemocratic to boot.
If you don't like online polls tell the millionaires' lickspittles that pass for a government to get the pencils and paper out.
Actually, judging by that poll I just put up, I really doubt that Remain would win a 2nd vote "easily". I was beginning to think it myself, but hmm.
If we had a revote there would be a very strong possibility the Brits would say Fuck You all over again, and with added vehemence, because they weren't heard the first time.
Also, what would the Remainer campaign say? What would be their slogan?
The Leave campaign would be simple and brutally effective. TELL THEM AGAIN.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
It hasn't really, YouGov had it Remain 57% Leave with No Deal 43% a few days ago and 46% for No Deal is still under 50% and 6% less than the 52% Leave got in 2016. Leavers are rallying around No Deal rather than May's Deal but a majority are still opposed to it.
Oh dear that is very naughty use of numbers to produce your desired result. You cannot compare two different questions (Leave vs Remain)/(Leave vs type of Remain) and say they indicate a direction of travel of opinion. It is rather dishonest.
You can say the 52% which produced the narrow Leave majority are not all fully behind No Deal and as a result Leave loses its majority with No Deal as YouGov has showed, 43% for No Deal Brexit v Remain is significant but nowhere near the 52% Leave got to beat Remain in the referendum
I think the Article 50 petition is straight arrows.
But this one was, I believe, not written by a native speaker of English. In particular, Slavic users of our Mother Tongue often omit definite articles.
Yes, because Slavic languages don’t have articles (they have case systems instead). My wife trained as a sociolinguist, teaches TESOL and is learning Russian in her spare time for fun. She’s got quite adept at spotting Russian trolls in the comments on articles in The Times app.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Well the Brexit elite running the country won't let us have an official vote. They like us know remain would win it easily. So we have to use this kind of thing as a proxy to show that not only is Brexit against the national interest and organised by toddlers with full nappies, but is undemocratic to boot.
If you don't like online polls tell the millionaires' lickspittles that pass for a government to get the pencils and paper out.
No it is not, religion still plays an important role in the lives of many people in this country and there is a place for religious leaders in an appointed chamber amongst those from many other fields
*Appointed* is the key there.. ie not by right, but by the contribution they personally can make. Being a bishop should be no more of an automatic qualifier than a former head of Ofsted, chair of the Arts Council, someone from the Muslim Council of Britain
Who would have believed, on that sunny day in 2016, that our PM would have to skulk in the foyer while the EU bigwigs considered her plea for an Article 50 extension?
They are having a probably lavish working dinner while she sits in the foyer unwrapping her sandwich from the tinfoil.
Or gathered round a laptop to approve the wording of the final position.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Who would have believed, on that sunny day in 2016, that our PM would have to skulk in the foyer while the EU bigwigs considered her plea for an Article 50 extension?
They are having a probably lavish working dinner while she sits in the foyer unwrapping her sandwich from the tinfoil.
Or gathered round a laptop to approve the wording of the final position.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
It hasn't really, YouGov had it Remain 57% Leave with No Deal 43% a few days ago and 46% for No Deal is still under 50% and 6% less than the 52% Leave got in 2016. Leavers are rallying around No Deal rather than May's Deal but a majority are still opposed to it.
Oh dear that is very naughty use of numbers to produce your desired result. You cannot compare two different questions (Leave vs Remain)/(Leave vs type of Remain) and say they indicate a direction of travel of opinion. It is rather dishonest.
You can say the 52% which produced the narrow Leave majority are not all fully behind No Deal and as a result Leave loses its majority with No Deal as YouGov has showed, 43% for No Deal Brexit v Remain is significant but nowhere near the 52% Leave got to beat Remain in the referendum
No you can't say anything based on two different questions. How many people don't like either May's deal or No deal but still won't vote Remain?
If you want to make the direct comparison as you did in your original comment then the only comparison is polling asking the same question as the referendum. Anything else is meaningless in terms of judging how peoples views have changed.
No it is not, religion still plays an important role in the lives of many people in this country and there is a place for religious leaders in an appointed chamber amongst those from many other fields
*Appointed* is the key there.. ie not by right, but by the contribution they personally can make. Being a bishop should be no more of an automatic qualifier than a former head of Ofsted, chair of the Arts Council, someone from the Muslim Council of Britain
No it is not, religion still plays an important role in the lives of many people in this country and there is a place for religious leaders in an appointed chamber amongst those from many other fields
*Appointed* is the key there.. ie not by right, but by the contribution they personally can make. Being a bishop should be no more of an automatic qualifier than a former head of Ofsted, chair of the Arts Council, someone from the Muslim Council of Britain
I would have no problem with any of those being there either
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
It hasn't really, YouGov had it Remain 57% Leave with No Deal 43% a few days ago and 46% for No Deal is still under 50% and 6% less than the 52% Leave got in 2016. Leavers are rallying around No Deal rather than May's Deal but a majority are still opposed to it.
Oh dear that is very naughty use of numbers to produce your desired result. You cannot compare two different questions (Leave vs Remain)/(Leave vs type of Remain) and say they indicate a direction of travel of opinion. It is rather dishonest.
You can say the 52% which produced the narrow Leave majority are not all fully behind No Deal and as a result Leave loses its majority with No Deal as YouGov has showed, 43% for No Deal Brexit v Remain is significant but nowhere near the 52% Leave got to beat Remain in the referendum
No you can't say anything based on two different questions. How many people don't like either May's deal or No deal but still won't vote Remain?
If you want to make the direct comparison as you did in your original comment then the only comparison is polling asking the same question as the referendum. Anything else is meaningless in terms of judging how peoples views have changed.
Yes I absolutely can say it and I will. As YouGov showed almost 60% of voters would vote for Remain over No Deal and 60% for Remain over the Deal so those voters who do not like May's Deal or No Deal will vote Remain ie they want BINO Brexit only.
The original question only asked about Leaving, not to what, once the actual mode of Leaving is asked then it is clear Remain beats hard Brexit now
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Nope we are a Parliamentary democracy. All a petition does is suggest to parliament something that should be debated - which hopefully this will be so it removes one of the 3 options from the table.
Then as I stated earlier the final 2 options can be decided upon and the people paid and elected to make decisions will have finally done their job and made a decision.
I think you have misunderstood the petition systems. Unfortunately (and I mean that genuinely) it does not mean it is automatically debated. It only means it is considered by the Petitions Committee who will recommend whether or not it should be debated.
As an aside this petition still has a ways to go to beat the last one asking for a re-run of the referendum which reached 4.1 million signatures.
For want of a better word, "exactly".
These petitions are like self selecting opinion polls - i.e. practically useless.
For the record, I am sure than 2 million (or 3 or 4 or even 5 million) people feel strongly enough about leaving the EU that they'll sign an online petition. That doesn't obviate the fact that 17.2 million people voted to Leave.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Yes. It's the same spirit that would probably see Leave win a second referendum by a country mile.
There is something rousing about that spirit, but it's more suitable to stoicism in the face of terror threats, etc, and having it create a crisis to be stoic in is somewhat perverse.
It could make a fine film, but I don't want to live through it.
Anecdotal, I know, but I know several people who voted leave who would not bother to vote in a second referendum because what would be the point. I would not be surprised to see a lot of that, aided by diminishment of enthusiasm from others like myself.
If you consult the fabled PBCX, you will note that at least three PB regulars are switcheroos - your good self, Slackbladder and Rochdale Pioneer. Eek will be the next to flip!
Comments
So they are completely irrelevant to the current question of the Withdrawal Agreement.
If there is any movement, its impatience, not resolve.
https://twitter.com/Coburn4Brexit/status/1108842481469263879
Politicians need to stop whining all the time, that's our job. If she won't fall on her sword then it is their job to push her onto it, it isn't a complicated puzzle.
The smart Remainers in parliament, including Bercow, know this. They are desperate to achieve a Revoke and they know the best way to do that is to deprive May of the best card she has.
I certainly won't be voting Conservative next time around, partly due to the sheer idiocy and illiberal nature of the wanking license but mostly due to the utter mishandling of Brexit (to quote, "f**k business" is not what I voted for). But I won't be voting for anyone else either.
I think a lot of people will either become disengaged from the political process and abstain. The others will be swept up by demagogues promising change, as so many have on the continent or across the pond.
Brexit has shown our system isn't fit for purpose. But to your point, to continue to vote for this shower will only encourage them.
But this one was, I believe, not written by a native speaker of English. In particular, Slavic users of our Mother Tongue often omit definite articles.
https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/178844
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1108839740650983427
There is something rousing about that spirit, but it's more suitable to stoicism in the face of terror threats, etc, and having it create a crisis to be stoic in is somewhat perverse.
It could make a fine film, but I don't want to live through it.
And yet, the opposite. Magnificent. It may be stupid and suicidal, but it is also magnificent. We're yearning to jump over the cliff. Fuck it all.
If one positive thing has come from this, its that no deal is being taken seriously. Three years too late.
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1108683381599100928
And this:
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1108683627666292736
So risky, but I gotta chance it
So funny, there's nothing to laugh about
My money, that's all you wanna talk about
I can see what you want me to be
But I'm no fool
It's in the lap of the gods
Freddie was singing about Brexit?
Night all.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-deal-opinion-poll-theresa-may-a8831241.html
Unlike May, they are planning ahead, and trying to avoid having to spend another load of time in summit at the end of next week discussing the whole thing again, after the deal is rejected again. So they are looking for a decision that covers all bases.
I can take that. Deal must be dead though.
As an aside this petition still has a ways to go to beat the last one asking for a re-run of the referendum which reached 4.1 million signatures.
According to Katya Adler:
Leaders agreeing to unconditional extension till 12 April unconditionally. If MPs approve the #Brexit deal next week, there’s a short extension till 22 May. If UK wants more time will need to tell EU by 12 April (so as to be able to take part in elex for European Parliament
People aren't thick. The more bullshit gets spread, the more unbelievable it becomes, undermining the true worries.
The scare stories have gotten so stupid now. We won't have fresh food, medicine, planes won't fly. The car industry will be wiped out. Not one of those will happen. The more that gets spread, the more it gets sensible people's backs ups and we think "why are you lying to me".
The truth is mundane, no deal will be an inconvenience. There may be problems we haven't foreseen. It could cost some business.
This “parliament taking control” shizz ain’t gonna fly in its current form, IMO.
There are two outcomes TM is prepared to deliver - Deal or no Deal, and now. An indicative motion demanding Norway or Ref2 or free unicorns for Edinburgh Zoo is going to have the same effect as the one taking No Deal off the table.
So, if the will of Parliament is to cook up an outcome other than those (either next week or similarly close to the next deadline), it will need to be imposed by asking a grown-up to put the relevant ingredients in the oven. Which probably means a VONC and some coming together about who follows, probably on the universal understanding they’ll only be in the job for six weeks.
And I think that’s quite a big ask - given Corbyn won’t even do tea and biccies with Umunna, and any such solution probably requires front bench buy-in (or at least acquiescence) from both main parties so as not to leave 300 MPs defying the whip.
If they want to change their minds and be more generous, great, but this is not them handing down a fait accompli.
In this case and just in this case due to the very pressing deadline I regard the petition as a means for the speaker to push something onto the agenda
So after the deal is either defeated or not brought next week, we have two weeks to come up with something.
Going out on a limb and being bold, I'm going to say May goes when her deal fails once more next week (the fundamentals have not changed and people are looking to say no, what with the faux offence being used as an excuse to vote no) as she would at that point lose a vote of no confidence as I expect some Tories would finally man up and vote to bring her down.
Not sure exactly what would happen after that, but I would not be entirely surprised if a GE was triggered and whoever is acting as PM has to ask for an extension on that basis.
Not really a great outcome, extension wise. Parliament has just been given time to extend its period of idiotic squabbling for a few more weeks.
I have trust in business and individuals abilities to shield themselves.
Revoke Article 50 1,753,194
As of right now.
Actually he does know about trade deals. And everyone else who also knows about trade deals thinks "No Deal" is utterly demented
Ironically, May's deal will probably end up getting passed in whole ...... but only once she's gone. I suppose that's proof the word 'toxic' really does apply.
There's something faintly tragic about people who get hooked on these petitions, like they mean anything. I've nearly fallen for it, myself.
NEW THREAD
But I could be totally wrong.
If you don't like online polls tell the millionaires' lickspittles that pass for a government to get the pencils and paper out.
But hey, I want Norway as the end point so I am not going to complain if that is what it takes to get it through. I just think if that is all they want (a change to the PD to include Norway etc) then that could have been done weeks ago.
If we had a revote there would be a very strong possibility the Brits would say Fuck You all over again, and with added vehemence, because they weren't heard the first time.
Also, what would the Remainer campaign say? What would be their slogan?
The Leave campaign would be simple and brutally effective. TELL THEM AGAIN.
If tonights EU offer lands then they’ve boxed the lunatic in.
https://twitter.com/DTzantchev/status/1108807850397261826
If you want to make the direct comparison as you did in your original comment then the only comparison is polling asking the same question as the referendum. Anything else is meaningless in terms of judging how peoples views have changed.
The original question only asked about Leaving, not to what, once the actual mode of Leaving is asked then it is clear Remain beats hard Brexit now
These petitions are like self selecting opinion polls - i.e. practically useless.
For the record, I am sure than 2 million (or 3 or 4 or even 5 million) people feel strongly enough about leaving the EU that they'll sign an online petition. That doesn't obviate the fact that 17.2 million people voted to Leave.