May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
There was a Belgian MEP on 5Live tonight who said Britain would be close to being a rogue state if we had a No Deal Brexit. The EU are as batshit as PB about Brexit. Everybody needs to lie down and think about happy places.
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one and driving us to disaster. The Tory party has to act and get rid of her, if it wants to survive.
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
You can equally argue the opposite. Gove is desperately trying (and has been since October) to get his department in a position to support farmers were the result to be No Deal - (his plan wouldn’t work so I ran a mile from it).
Actually sky news (and they are no fans of may / Brexit) said this reverse ferret is because tusk has made a boo boo and they are trying to find a fudge to save face.
2 weeks of can kicking then. Might as well just say it must be a long extension, and force us to decide what we want to do next week. Not sure what the point is of this April plan.
If Letwin Benn passes next week and the Commons votes for 'Common Market 2.0' ie SM and CU BINO we will know pretty soon, as was shown on Peston last night after number crunching how MPs lean 'Common Market 2.0' is now closer to a majority in the Commons than any of the Deal, No Deal or EUref2, extension just gives the Commons the time to vote for it and avoid default No Deal
Can I ask who here was glad May won the confidence vote last December and if you still are?
Me, because I was terrified of the chaos that could've been caused by Boris Johnson or similar wading into the negotiations at the 11th hour, and I think that still applies in retrospect.
Which is not to say that I am entirely happy about the position we're in, but I'm still blaming most of that on the ERG and Labour.
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.
Letwin and Benn to retable amendment on Monday to give MPs the power to vote on alternative options, including 'Common Market 2.0' to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union. Letwin says he is now confident he has the votes to pass it after it lost by just 2 votes last time as at least 5 MPs have now switched in favour of the amendment following changes
I'm amazed it lost the first time. I'm half convinced May was as well, and she didn't actually have a plan for what happened if she won that vote, as she was expecting to have to be 'forced' to holding votes on alternative options by now.
But I'm in favour of anything if it means MPs will actually narrow down their choices, though does there remain the possibility they just vote against all options?
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular
Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.
Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordingly
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one and driving us to disaster. The Tory party has to act and get rid of her, if it wants to survive.
Well put.
No it wasn't, it was just pretending May doing a bad job is the same thing as being supported by no one and going rogue. When the PM doesn't have the confidence of the Cabinet or Commons we will know about it from more than rumours of people being happy in Cabinet and the statements of understandably discontented MPs. They'll actually do something.
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.
Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordingly
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?
Letwin and Benn to retable amendment on Monday to give MPs the power to vote on alternative options, including 'Common Market 2.0' to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union. Letwin says he is now confident he has the votes to pass it after it lost by just 2 votes last time as at least 5 MPs have now switched in favour of the amendment following changes
I'm amazed it lost the first time. I'm half convinced May was as well, and she didn't actually have a plan for what happened if she won that vote, as she was expecting to have to be 'forced' to holding votes on alternative options by now.
But I'm in favour of anything if it means MPs will actually narrow down their choices, though does there remain the possibility they just vote against all options?
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one and driving us to disaster. The Tory party has to act and get rid of her, if it wants to survive.
Well put.
She's Brigadier-General Jack D Ripper and the EU Council Meeting is the War Room. Who is President Merkin, Dr Strangelove or General Buck Turgidson I will leave to others. Dominic Grieve would make a good Group Captain Lionel Mandrake, though.
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?
Can I ask who here was glad May won the confidence vote last December and if you still are?
The answer hangs on the replacement. It is Boris keeping her in her job.
In hindsight even Boris would have been better than May.
Unlike May, Boris wouldn't have dug himself into a bunker ranting and raving that nothing has changed.
There is no way that Boris would improve things.
Not now, but as bad as he is he is also flexible, which we need more of. He's not been flexible on the WA because he is outside and trying to become PM, but he'd twist and turn as much as he had to if he was at the top, god forbid.
Letwin and Benn to retable amendment on Monday to give MPs the power to vote on alternative options, including 'Common Market 2.0' to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union. Letwin says he is now confident he has the votes to pass it after it lost by just 2 votes last time as at least 5 MPs have now switched in favour of the amendment following changes
I'm amazed it lost the first time. I'm half convinced May was as well, and she didn't actually have a plan for what happened if she won that vote, as she was expecting to have to be 'forced' to holding votes on alternative options by now.
But I'm in favour of anything if it means MPs will actually narrow down their choices, though does there remain the possibility they just vote against all options?
6 weeks unconditional extension according to chap on BBC
Ugh, awful outcome.
If the Commons will vote for anything, it will be Common Market 2.0
Fine. If it is the most consensus building option then it is bloody frustrating the ones who back it on each side have not pushed harder together in the past few months.
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one and driving us to disaster. The Tory party has to act and get rid of her, if it wants to survive.
Well put.
She's Brigadier-General Jack D Ripper and the EU Council Meeting is the War Room. Who is President Merkin, Dr Strangelove or General Buck Turgidson I will leave to others. Dominic Grieve would make a good Group Captain Lionel Mandrake, though.
"Gentlemen, you can't Leave! This is the Brexit Room!"
It is interesting how the Brexit story is affecting all of us. I have just been looking at Jeremy Corbyn's efforts in Brussels today. He seems to have had some constructive talks and his deal looks a sight better than May's offering. My rational brain says this sounds sensible and that I ought be supporting it. My lizard brain, which is in control right now, says 'why isn't this guy leading us to the barricades to get Article 50 revoked now! Traitor!'.
Puts historical accounts of revolutions into perspective.
I hope we can all calm down soon.
(And before anyone says anything, I am well aware of his long history of Euroskepticism.)
Eight more sleeps! Will Santa Brexit come down the chimbley? And give us all the sunlit uplands presents we were promised? Will there be happy times and party hats, jelly and ice cream?
Or will he shit on the carpet, vom, pass out and break the table? Yeah. It's going to be that, isn't it...
It is interesting how the Brexit story is affecting all of us. I have just been looking at Jeremy Corbyn's efforts in Brussels today. He seems to have had some constructive talks and his deal looks a sight better than May's offering. My rational brain says this sounds sensible and that I ought be supporting it. My lizard brain, which is in control right now, says 'why isn't this guy leading us to the barricades to get Article 50 revoked now! Traitor!'.
Puts historical accounts of revolutions into perspective.
I hope we can all calm down soon.
(And before anyone says anything, I am well aware of his long history of Euroskepticism.)
Corbyn has had a better chance of a deal the Commons might support than May for quite some time.
EU grants unconditional short extension. May is forced out.
At that point a long extension has to be value because whoever the Tory Party pick as leader is going to have to either tack to the no-deal right (loses the remainers to TIG, VONC, GE) or tacks towards a Norway model (loses the ERG, VONC, GE).
Can I ask who here was glad May won the confidence vote last December and if you still are?
The answer hangs on the replacement. It is Boris keeping her in her job.
In hindsight even Boris would have been better than May.
Unlike May, Boris wouldn't have dug himself into a bunker ranting and raving that nothing has changed.
There is no way that Boris would improve things.
Not now, but as bad as he is he is also flexible, which we need more of. He's not been flexible on the WA because he is outside and trying to become PM, but he'd twist and turn as much as he had to if he was at the top, god forbid.
Yet he has boxed himself into ever more extreme positions such that now he is shooting at 'leading' the handful of most extreme nutters.
And his judgment is appalling. At least we can expect May's deal to be a workable product, even if she is handling the tactics dreadfully. With Boris we'd probably have something unworkable or unaffordable.
Eight more sleeps! Will Santa Brexit come down the chimbley? And give us all the sunlit uplands presents we were promised? Will there be happy times and party hats, jelly and ice cream?
Or will he shit on the carpet, vom, pass out and break the table? Yeah. It's going to be that, isn't it...
Nah you are going to wake up to a note that says Christmas has been delayed for 9 months (with small print that says subject to further change)
EU grants unconditional short extension. May is forced out.
At that point a long extension has to be value because whoever the Tory Party pick as leader is going to have to either tack to the no-deal right (loses the remainers to TIG, VONC, GE) or tacks towards a Norway model (loses the ERG, VONC, GE).
I was just hoping Brexit Endgame would play out before Avengers Endgame at the end of April, but apparently not.
EU grants unconditional short extension. May is forced out.
At that point a long extension has to be value because whoever the Tory Party pick as leader is going to have to either tack to the no-deal right (loses the remainers to TIG, VONC, GE) or tacks towards a Norway model (loses the ERG, VONC, GE).
The ERG have nowhere to go. The problem is that they have the members' backing, but a powerful leader should nevertheless be able to face them down.
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular
Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.
She's rogue because, as best as I can tell - and I may of course be wrong - she is talking to no-one, involving no-one, not getting the consent of others, not building a consensus, just acting as if she - and her views - are the only things that matter. (That's when she's not doing her Joan of Arc "I hear the voice of the People" shtick, while being one of those politicians utterly reluctant to speak to any actual real life people let alone consult them.)
The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.
In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue
I think the only way this gets sorted is to follow the Ripley Doctrine regarding Westminster.
+1 Once this is all over, a bonfire (metaphorical, of course) of the present lot who have brought us to this crisis needs to happen. Sack the lot of em. Start again.
Eight more sleeps! Will Santa Brexit come down the chimbley? And give us all the sunlit uplands presents we were promised? Will there be happy times and party hats, jelly and ice cream?
Or will he shit on the carpet, vom, pass out and break the table? Yeah. It's going to be that, isn't it...
Brexit Day might be more Greg Lake than Cliff Richard...
Can I ask who here was glad May won the confidence vote last December and if you still are?
The answer hangs on the replacement. It is Boris keeping her in her job.
In hindsight even Boris would have been better than May.
Unlike May, Boris wouldn't have dug himself into a bunker ranting and raving that nothing has changed.
There is no way that Boris would improve things.
Not now, but as bad as he is he is also flexible, which we need more of. He's not been flexible on the WA because he is outside and trying to become PM, but he'd twist and turn as much as he had to if he was at the top, god forbid.
Yet he has boxed himself into ever more extreme positions such that now he is shooting at 'leading' the handful of most extreme nutters.
And his judgment is appalling. At least we can expect May's deal to be a workable product, even if she is handling the tactics dreadfully. With Boris we'd probably have something unworkable or unaffordable.
Boris's WA would probably involve a Garden Bridge over the Channel.
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular
Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.
She's rogue because, as best as I can tell - and I may of course be wrong - she is talking to no-one, involving no-one, not getting the consent of others, not building a consensus, just acting as if she - and her views - are the only things that matter. (That's when she's not doing her Joan of Arc "I hear the voice of the People" shtick, while being one of those politicians utterly reluctant to speak to any actual real life people let alone consult them.)
The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.
In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue
And I disagree. If she is doing as you suggest then the Cabinet and Parliament could and should have acted to remove her or bypass her. If they have not, and they haven't, they are backing her actions even if they whinge at us about them.
I think the only way this gets sorted is to follow the Ripley Doctrine regarding Westminster.
Given the competence & efficiency with which Brexit has been carried out, which actual coordinates should be given to the Trident sub commander to ensure that he/she accidentally takes out Westminster?
He's right parliament should get that chance, but he cannot help himself by saying she is threatening the country with no deal. Parliament put that threat in place and has always had the power to remove it, and no only through voting for the deal.
Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months
If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.
Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.
Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?
Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.
Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordingly
Which doesn't change what I said at all.
Gove, Leadsom, Hunt, Fox etc wouldn't reportedly.
Common Market 2.0 can still pass without them, they also voted to keep No Deal on the table, the Commons voted to take No Deal off the table
And an astute comment that Mrs May reminds of Honecker in the last days of the GDR. In fact there are strong parallels between Brexit and East Germany. A lot of the motivations are the same.
I don't feel we've had enough constitutional tinkering recently. A full separation of the church and the state is overdue. Perhaps something to look at once Brexit is uncontroversial?
No thanks.
I like the established CoE.
Nope I am with Alastair on this one. If we are to use Brexit as an opportunity for real beneficial change then disestablishment is a very good place to start.
I think it’s a fairly harmless (but also valuable) part of our cultural and historical tapestry.
And I love giving prayers to its head, HM Queen Elizabeth, at Christmas in Winchester cathedral.
But I wouldn’t expect you to agree. I am a Conservative, after all.
We could turn it into the Church of Windsor.
It’s an independent, very English, church, at the centre of parishes and communities up and down the country, and it plays a useful (if somewhat left-leaning) part in our national debate.
I think that’s, on balance, a positive thing.
It's so independent it has Bishops in the Lords.
If people want to support their medieval superstitions then good luck to them, no reason it should be established though.
Yes and many of those Bishops contribute more to debates than the party donor hacks who take up too many places nowadays, the same applies to the Rabbis who have had seats there and representatives of other faiths could also have a presence
Hell no.
There is no reason why religious leaders should not be in the Lords in the same way ex politicians, businessmen, academics, lawyers, scientists, former sportspeople and figures in the arts are
Most of those people are there because of the individual contributions they made to their chosen fields. Bishops are there because of the status of their religion irrespective of their individual qualities.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
I think the only way this gets sorted is to follow the Ripley Doctrine regarding Westminster.
+1 Once this is all over, a bonfire (metaphorical, of course) of the present lot who have brought us to this crisis needs to happen. Sack the lot of em. Start again.
And when that doesn't happen and an election, whenever it happens, returns the same old shower?
I think they've handled themselves very poorly, but let's not pretend even for a minute that the same party lines will broadly apply and the same kind of candidates will get appointed. We reward that behaviour.
Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?
It sounds like they are thinking about their own problems, elections, etc, than on trying to influence our process and decisions. I think it's awful because if we go past April 11th without starting the EU elections process it's too late and that means it becomes impossible to agree a longer extension later. We would have to revoke if we wanted to avoid no deal or the deal.
But then I can understand why they are not trying to second guess what we want as that is up to us to sort out.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
The numbers per constituency also all make sense and are believable.
Betfair is still expecting 3rd Meaningful Vote to take place next week.
Is this still likely if EU offers unconditional extension?
Probably, although I don't know what the point would be. The main obstacle to the deal has been they never see it as a choice between no brexit/ no deal vs the deal, and they definitely won't now.
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular
Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.
She's rogue because, as best as I can tell - and I may of course be wrong - she is talking to no-one, involving no-one, not getting the consent of others, not building a consensus, just acting as if she - and her views - are the only things that matter. (That's when she's not doing her Joan of Arc "I hear the voice of the People" shtick, while being one of those politicians utterly reluctant to speak to any actual real life people let alone consult them.)
The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.
In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue
And I disagree. If she is doing as you suggest then the Cabinet and Parliament could and should have acted to remove her or bypass her. If they have not, and they haven't, they are backing her actions even if they whinge at us about them.
The problem is our politicians have been in a downward spiral in terms of quality for years. I sort of expect us to end the year with Dianne Abbott as Home Secretary, it seems to be the logical next step...
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular
Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.
She's rogue because, as best as I can tell - and I may of course be wrong - she is talking to no-one, involving no-one, not getting the consent of others, not building a consensus, just acting as if she - and her views - are the only things that matter. (That's when she's not doing her Joan of Arc "I hear the voice of the People" shtick, while being one of those politicians utterly reluctant to speak to any actual real life people let alone consult them.)
The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.
In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue
And I disagree. If she is doing as you suggest then the Cabinet and Parliament could and should have acted to remove her or bypass her. If they have not, and they haven't, they are backing her actions even if they whinge at us about them.
Backing her is just one of the potential reasons. Maybe they don't fancy the limelight for themselves? Maybe they don't want to hold the dagger and are waiting to follow, not lead? Maybe they enjoy the perks and power a little too much and are keeping their heads down? Etc.
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular
Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.
She's rogue because, as best as I can tell - and I may of course be wrong - she is talking to no-one, involving no-one, not getting the consent of others, not building a consensus, just acting as if she - and her views - are the only things that matter. (That's when she's not doing her Joan of Arc "I hear the voice of the People" shtick, while being one of those politicians utterly reluctant to speak to any actual real life people let alone consult them.)
The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.
In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue
And I disagree. If she is doing as you suggest then the Cabinet and Parliament could and should have acted to remove her or bypass her. If they have not, and they haven't, they are backing her actions even if they whinge at us about them.
Backing her is just one of the potential reasons. Maybe they don't fancy the limelight for themselves? Maybe they don't want to hold the dagger and are waiting to follow, not lead? Maybe they enjoy the perks and power a little too much and are keeping their heads down? Etc.
By backing her I didn't necessarily mean they are happy about it or fulsome in their efforts to back her. I mean that people can whine about not liking X all they want, but if they don't do anything to stop X, their actions are backing X whatever the reason for their inaction. Parliament has to date permitted May to carry on even if just by not filling the vacuum of leadership that is on display.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
It started to go viral late last night after May's scena della pazzia so there's nothing suspect about the numbers.
Finally managed to sign the petition. Not even sure I agree with it, but think it’s important to register my absolute disgust at the way Theresa May is conducting herself. She clearly does not believe in Parliamentary democracy.
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular
Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.
She's rogue because, as best as I can tell - and I may of course be wrong - she is talking to no-one, involving no-one, not getting the consent of others, not building a consensus, just acting as if she - and her views - are the only things that matter. (That's when she's not doing her Joan of Arc "I hear the voice of the People" shtick, while being one of those politicians utterly reluctant to speak to any actual real life people let alone consult them.)
The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.
In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue
And I disagree. If she is doing as you suggest then the Cabinet and Parliament could and should have acted to remove her or bypass her. If they have not, and they haven't, they are backing her actions even if they whinge at us about them.
For PMs to go rogue requires only sensible MPs to do nothing.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Finally managed to sign the petition. Not even sure I agree with it, but think it’s important to register my absolute disgust at the way Theresa May is conducting herself. She clearly does not believe in Parliamentary democracy.
How so? Parliament has not yet decided on anything definitively. It's voted against an awful lot of things so far.
Nick Gutteridge: EU official says that when leaders asked May what she was going to do if her deal was voted down, she would only reply that she was following her 'Plan A' of getting it through. It was then they decided 'she didn't have a plan so they needed to come up with one for her'.
May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .
Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.
Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular
Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.
She's rogue because, as best as I can tell - and I may of course be wrong - she is talking to no-one, involving no-one, not getting the consent of others, not building a consensus, just acting as if she - and her views - are the only things that matter. (That's when she's not doing her Joan of Arc "I hear the voice of the People" shtick, while being one of those politicians utterly reluctant to speak to any actual real life people let alone consult them.)
The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.
In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue
And I disagree. If she is doing as you suggest then the Cabinet and Parliament could and should have acted to remove her or bypass her. If they have not, and they haven't, they are backing her actions even if they whinge at us about them.
The problem is our politicians have been in a downward spiral in terms of quality for years. I sort of expect us to end the year with Dianne Abbott as Home Secretary, it seems to be the logical next step...
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?
Combination of things. There is an element of being nice here. We are not acting coherently and they're a bit worried. But it's mostly self-interest. @Richard_Nabavi posted something several weeks ago from the Guardian[1] which said they would grant a short extension because they didn't want to be blamed for a hard-Brexit. That article was the subject of some concern to me and it appears that it is playing out.
Finally managed to sign the petition. Not even sure I agree with it, but think it’s important to register my absolute disgust at the way Theresa May is conducting herself. She clearly does not believe in Parliamentary democracy.
Same here, but I haven't been able to register my disgust - too many others doing likewise.
May needs to go . She’s now a danger to the country . For those leadership hopefuls in the cabinet if the lunatic drives the UK out on no deal and it ends up a disaster they will also be left with that baggage .
Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?
Trolling, pure and simple.
Isn't it odd to think that in pre- internet days we lacked both the concept and the word for trolling?
It does seem odd, because all the evidence is we’ll dick around for another month and still have not enough time to do anything at the end of it. While I wasn’t in favour of “MV3 or you’re out next Friday”, I think “MV3 or you need to tell us you’ve found a grown-up helper by next Thursday if you want longer” might finally have caused some decisions.
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
And an astute comment that Mrs May reminds of Honecker in the last days of the GDR. In fact there are strong parallels between Brexit and East Germany. A lot of the motivations are the same.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Can I ask who here was glad May won the confidence vote last December and if you still are?
The answer hangs on the replacement. It is Boris keeping her in her job.
In hindsight even Boris would have been better than May.
Unlike May, Boris wouldn't have dug himself into a bunker ranting and raving that nothing has changed.
There is no way that Boris would improve things.
Not now, but as bad as he is he is also flexible, which we need more of. He's not been flexible on the WA because he is outside and trying to become PM, but he'd twist and turn as much as he had to if he was at the top, god forbid.
Yet he has boxed himself into ever more extreme positions such that now he is shooting at 'leading' the handful of most extreme nutters.
And his judgment is appalling. At least we can expect May's deal to be a workable product, even if she is handling the tactics dreadfully. With Boris we'd probably have something unworkable or unaffordable.
Boris's WA would probably involve a Garden Bridge over the Channel.
Despite his better campaigning and (on a good day) presentational skills, Boris shares most of the weaknesses you spelled out for May downthread. Boris too is a one man band, wants to lead without doing the hard work to build alliances or make compromises, hates scrutiny, has no experience of leading a group of strong-minded colleagues - on top of which, unlike May, he has no eye for or interest in detail and makes his judgements largely on the emotional bigger picture.
Boris's career of lone roles - journalist, mayor - has played to his strengths, but he would be a disaster leading in the current circumstances. Boris's own self image as Churchill re-born has him like Churchill harrumphing around the country trading on charm and character; people forget the lengths those with judgement went to keeping Churchill from meddling in things he didn't understand.
1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU
Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.
Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU
Nope we are a Parliamentary democracy. All a petition does is suggest to parliament something that should be debated - which hopefully this will be so it removes one of the 3 options from the table.
Then as I stated earlier the final 2 options can be decided upon and the people paid and elected to make decisions will have finally done their job and made a decision.
Comments
Unlike May, Boris wouldn't have dug himself into a bunker ranting and raving that nothing has changed.
Which is not to say that I am entirely happy about the position we're in, but I'm still blaming most of that on the ERG and Labour.
But I'm in favour of anything if it means MPs will actually narrow down their choices, though does there remain the possibility they just vote against all options? Ugh, awful outcome.
Gove, Leadsom, Hunt, Fox etc wouldn't reportedly.
Puts historical accounts of revolutions into perspective.
I hope we can all calm down soon.
(And before anyone says anything, I am well aware of his long history of Euroskepticism.)
Or will he shit on the carpet, vom, pass out and break the table? Yeah. It's going to be that, isn't it...
EU grants unconditional short extension. May is forced out.
At that point a long extension has to be value because whoever the Tory Party pick as leader is going to have to either tack to the no-deal right (loses the remainers to TIG, VONC, GE) or tacks towards a Norway model (loses the ERG, VONC, GE).
And his judgment is appalling. At least we can expect May's deal to be a workable product, even if she is handling the tactics dreadfully. With Boris we'd probably have something unworkable or unaffordable.
https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1108830556178079750?s=21
The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.
In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue
Once this is all over, a bonfire (metaphorical, of course) of the present lot who have brought us to this crisis needs to happen. Sack the lot of em. Start again.
Is this still likely if EU offers unconditional extension?
Isn't it odd to think that in pre- internet days we lacked both the concept and the word for trolling?
She must go immediately.
And an astute comment that Mrs May reminds of Honecker in the last days of the GDR. In fact there are strong parallels between Brexit and East Germany. A lot of the motivations are the same.
I think they've handled themselves very poorly, but let's not pretend even for a minute that the same party lines will broadly apply and the same kind of candidates will get appointed. We reward that behaviour.
But then I can understand why they are not trying to second guess what we want as that is up to us to sort out.
Read my posts from last night. It was 300,000 when I went to bed and I posted here at the time. It was 400,000 when I woke up and posted here.
If you slept through 500,000 then either you had way too much to drink last night or you should get medical help.
Nick Gutteridge:
EU official says that when leaders asked May what she was going to do if her deal was voted down, she would only reply that she was following her 'Plan A' of getting it through. It was then they decided 'she didn't have a plan so they needed to come up with one for her'.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cYZ262b7wBI
Leave 52%
Remain 48%
[1] Possibly this one: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/31/eu-fears-short-article-50-extension-will-mean-no-deal-brexit-in-june
It's quite incredible
https://twitter.com/goodwinmj/status/1108760249631211520?s=21
Everyone who is anyone, from Brussels to London to the GUARDIAN to the BBC to the entire government has been menacing us for weeks that No Deal Brexit will mean the end of days, wolverines gnawing on corpses in Leicester Square, fevers and plague stalking the kingdom etc
And the result? British public opinion has swung further in FAVOUR of No Deal. That truly is a great big Fuck Off. We won’t be bullied. We are not the French, or the Dutch, or the Irish. THIS IS SPARTA.
Boris's career of lone roles - journalist, mayor - has played to his strengths, but he would be a disaster leading in the current circumstances. Boris's own self image as Churchill re-born has him like Churchill harrumphing around the country trading on charm and character; people forget the lengths those with judgement went to keeping Churchill from meddling in things he didn't understand.
Then as I stated earlier the final 2 options can be decided upon and the people paid and elected to make decisions will have finally done their job and made a decision.