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There was a Belgian MEP on 5Live tonight who said Britain would be close to being a rogue state if we had a No Deal Brexit. The EU are as batshit as PB about Brexit. Everybody needs to lie down and think about happy places.

Philip_Thompson said:

Can I ask who here was glad May won the confidence vote last December and if you still are?

The answer hangs on the replacement. It is Boris keeping her in her job.

Cyclefree said:

May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one and driving us to disaster. The Tory party has to act and get rid of her, if it wants to survive.

Well put.

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .

Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.

You can equally argue the opposite. Gove is desperately trying (and has been since October) to get his department in a position to support farmers were the result to be No Deal - (his plan wouldn’t work so I ran a mile from it).

"Men in white coats" are needed for Theresa May now. Not "men in grey suits".

kle4 said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1108833838715801605

2 weeks of can kicking then. Might as well just say it must be a long extension, and force us to decide what we want to do next week. Not sure what the point is of this April plan.

If Letwin Benn passes next week and the Commons votes for 'Common Market 2.0' ie SM and CU BINO we will know pretty soon, as was shown on Peston last night after number crunching how MPs lean 'Common Market 2.0' is now closer to a majority in the Commons than any of the Deal, No Deal or EUref2, extension just gives the Commons the time to vote for it and avoid default No Deal

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .

Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.

Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular

HYUFD said:

Letwin and Benn to retable amendment on Monday to give MPs the power to vote on alternative options, including 'Common Market 2.0' to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union. Letwin says he is now confident he has the votes to pass it after it lost by just 2 votes last time as at least 5 MPs have now switched in favour of the amendment following changes

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/mps-move-to-take-control-of-brexit-as-theresa-may-heads-back-to-brussels-a4097446.html

I'm amazed it lost the first time. I'm half convinced May was as well, and she didn't actually have a plan for what happened if she won that vote, as she was expecting to have to be 'forced' to holding votes on alternative options by now.

But I'm in favour of anything if it means MPs will actually narrow down their choices, though does there remain the possibility they just vote against all options?

SandyRentool said:

6 weeks unconditional extension according to chap on BBC

Ugh, awful outcome.

Philip_Thompson said:

IanB2 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Can I ask who here was glad May won the confidence vote last December and if you still are?

The answer hangs on the replacement. It is Boris keeping her in her job.

In hindsight even Boris would have been better than May.

Unlike May, Boris wouldn't have dug himself into a bunker ranting and raving that nothing has changed.

There is no way that Boris would improve things.

Philip_Thompson said:

eek said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kle4 said:

eek said:

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1108829531903836161

Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months

If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.

Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.

Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?

Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.

Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordingly

eek said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kle4 said:

eek said:

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1108829531903836161

Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months

If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.

Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.

Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?

Hunt, Fox, Grayling, Mordaunt

solarflare said:

The impressive thing about Brexit is *every* time you think "this must be the week where some sort of decision/progress is made"...it isn't.

That is the one thing you can rely on..

1.5 million and counting...

Recidivist said:

Cyclefree said:

May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one and driving us to disaster. The Tory party has to act and get rid of her, if it wants to survive.

Well put.

She's Brigadier-General Jack D Ripper and the EU Council Meeting is the War Room. Who is President Merkin, Dr Strangelove or General Buck Turgidson I will leave to others. Dominic Grieve would make a good Group Captain Lionel Mandrake, though.

Pulpstar said:

eek said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kle4 said:

eek said:

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1108829531903836161

Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months

If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.

Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.

Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?

Hunt, Fox, Grayling, Mordaunt

The intellectual elite.

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

Letwin and Benn to retable amendment on Monday to give MPs the power to vote on alternative options, including 'Common Market 2.0' to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union. Letwin says he is now confident he has the votes to pass it after it lost by just 2 votes last time as at least 5 MPs have now switched in favour of the amendment following changes

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/mps-move-to-take-control-of-brexit-as-theresa-may-heads-back-to-brussels-a4097446.html

I'm amazed it lost the first time. I'm half convinced May was as well, and she didn't actually have a plan for what happened if she won that vote, as she was expecting to have to be 'forced' to holding votes on alternative options by now.

But I'm in favour of anything if it means MPs will actually narrow down their choices, though does there remain the possibility they just vote against all options?

SandyRentool said:

6 weeks unconditional extension according to chap on BBC

Ugh, awful outcome.

If the Commons will vote for anything, it will be Common Market 2.0

Fine. If it is the most consensus building option then it is bloody frustrating the ones who back it on each side have not pushed harder together in the past few months.

rpjs said:

So, does anyone still think May is a closet Remainer?

GIN1138 said:

This time next week it'll be Brexit Eve

Eight more sleeps! Will Santa Brexit come down the chimbley? And give us all the sunlit uplands presents we were promised? Will there be happy times and party hats, jelly and ice cream?

Or will he shit on the carpet, vom, pass out and break the table? Yeah. It's going to be that, isn't it...

I’m starting to wonder if it’s endgame.

EU grants unconditional short extension. May is forced out.

At that point a long extension has to be value because whoever the Tory Party pick as leader is going to have to either tack to the no-deal right (loses the remainers to TIG, VONC, GE) or tacks towards a Norway model (loses the ERG, VONC, GE).

viewcode said:

GIN1138 said:

This time next week it'll be Brexit Eve

Eight more sleeps! Will Santa Brexit come down the chimbley? And give us all the sunlit uplands presents we were promised? Will there be happy times and party hats, jelly and ice cream?

Or will he shit on the carpet, vom, pass out and break the table? Yeah. It's going to be that, isn't it...

Nah you are going to wake up to a note that says Christmas has been delayed for 9 months (with small print that says subject to further change)

numbertwelve said:

I’m starting to wonder if it’s endgame.

EU grants unconditional short extension. May is forced out.

At that point a long extension has to be value because whoever the Tory Party pick as leader is going to have to either tack to the no-deal right (loses the remainers to TIG, VONC, GE) or tacks towards a Norway model (loses the ERG, VONC, GE).

I was just hoping Brexit Endgame would play out before Avengers Endgame at the end of April, but apparently not.

I think the only way this gets sorted is to follow the Ripley Doctrine regarding Westminster.

Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1108823018715910144

kle4 said:

Pulpstar said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .

Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.

Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular

Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.

She's rogue because, as best as I can tell - and I may of course be wrong - she is talking to no-one, involving no-one, not getting the consent of others, not building a consensus, just acting as if she - and her views - are the only things that matter. (That's when she's not doing her Joan of Arc "I hear the voice of the People" shtick, while being one of those politicians utterly reluctant to speak to any actual real life people let alone consult them.)

The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.

In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue

twistedfirestopper3 said:

I think the only way this gets sorted is to follow the Ripley Doctrine regarding Westminster.

+1
Once this is all over, a bonfire (metaphorical, of course) of the present lot who have brought us to this crisis needs to happen. Sack the lot of em. Start again.

viewcode said:

GIN1138 said:

This time next week it'll be Brexit Eve

Eight more sleeps! Will Santa Brexit come down the chimbley? And give us all the sunlit uplands presents we were promised? Will there be happy times and party hats, jelly and ice cream?

Or will he shit on the carpet, vom, pass out and break the table? Yeah. It's going to be that, isn't it...

Brexit Day might be more Greg Lake than Cliff Richard...

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Pulpstar said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .

Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.

Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular

Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.

She's rogue because, as best as I can tell - and I may of course be wrong - she is talking to no-one, involving no-one, not getting the consent of others, not building a consensus, just acting as if she - and her views - are the only things that matter. (That's when she's not doing her Joan of Arc "I hear the voice of the People" shtick, while being one of those politicians utterly reluctant to speak to any actual real life people let alone consult them.)

The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.

In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue

And I disagree. If she is doing as you suggest then the Cabinet and Parliament could and should have acted to remove her or bypass her. If they have not, and they haven't, they are backing her actions even if they whinge at us about them.

SouthamObserver said:

This is just perfect ...

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1108830556178079750?s=21

Why not just say that then we'll regretfully leave without a deal at that point ? She at least has to look halfway serious lol

At some stage today I realised I no longer believed my family was safe with May in charge.

She must go immediately.

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

eek said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kle4 said:

eek said:

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1108829531903836161

Well it’s a plan, granted it’s crap but it’s no worse than the others we’ve seen in the past 3 months

If Cabinet Members are really thinking these things they have no excuse for staying in the Cabinet. So as bad as things no doubt are there, it seems like it is just more attempts to focus on who gets blamed, ie not them. 'Me? I was against her the whole time I was in Cabinet'.

Sounds like its bitter soft Brexiteers realising they might not get what they want too. They should resign if that's what they think though.

Name me one No Deal Brexiteers left in the cabinet?

Reportedly the Cabinet would prefer the Deal but if that's not possible then most of the Cabinet would prefer No Deal to a long extension or revocation.

Rudd, Clark, Gauke etc would actually prefer 'Common Market 2.0' to No Deal and would vote accordingly

Which doesn't change what I said at all.

Gove, Leadsom, Hunt, Fox etc wouldn't reportedly.

Common Market 2.0 can still pass without them, they also voted to keep No Deal on the table, the Commons voted to take No Deal off the table

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I don't feel we've had enough constitutional tinkering recently. A full separation of the church and the state is overdue. Perhaps something to look at once Brexit is uncontroversial?

No thanks.

I like the established CoE.

Nope I am with Alastair on this one. If we are to use Brexit as an opportunity for real beneficial change then disestablishment is a very good place to start.

I think it’s a fairly harmless (but also valuable) part of our cultural and historical tapestry.

And I love giving prayers to its head, HM Queen Elizabeth, at Christmas in Winchester cathedral.

But I wouldn’t expect you to agree. I am a Conservative, after all.

We could turn it into the Church of Windsor.

It’s an independent, very English, church, at the centre of parishes and communities up and down the country, and it plays a useful (if somewhat left-leaning) part in our national debate.

I think that’s, on balance, a positive thing.

It's so independent it has Bishops in the Lords.

If people want to support their medieval superstitions then good luck to them, no reason it should be established though.

Yes and many of those Bishops contribute more to debates than the party donor hacks who take up too many places nowadays, the same applies to the Rabbis who have had seats there and representatives of other faiths could also have a presence

Hell no.

There is no reason why religious leaders should not be in the Lords in the same way ex politicians, businessmen, academics, lawyers, scientists, former sportspeople and figures in the arts are

Most of those people are there because of the individual contributions they made to their chosen fields. Bishops are there because of the status of their religion irrespective of their individual qualities.

kjohnw said:

1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU

Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.

eek said:

kjohnw said:

1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU

Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.

The numbers per constituency also all make sense and are believable.

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Pulpstar said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .

Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.

Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular

Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.

She's rogue because, as best as I can tell - and I may of course be wrong - she is talking to no-one, involving no-one, not getting the consent of others, not building a consensus, just acting as if she - and her views - are the only things that matter. (That's when she's not doing her Joan of Arc "I hear the voice of the People" shtick, while being one of those politicians utterly reluctant to speak to any actual real life people let alone consult them.)

The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.

In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue

And I disagree. If she is doing as you suggest then the Cabinet and Parliament could and should have acted to remove her or bypass her. If they have not, and they haven't, they are backing her actions even if they whinge at us about them.

The problem is our politicians have been in a downward spiral in terms of quality for years. I sort of expect us to end the year with Dianne Abbott as Home Secretary, it seems to be the logical next step...

Isn't it great to have taken back control so decisively?

IanB2 said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

kle4 said:

Pulpstar said:

kle4 said:

Cyclefree said:

May is now a rogue PM, isn't she? Supported by no-one .

Patently untrue. People who say she is doing mad things and yet remain in her Cabinet are clearly supporting her, just trying to cover their own backs. And parliament can remove her whenever it wants, and should, so she's not rogue either. They have the power.

Yes, parliament can VONC the Government when it wants so the idea of a rogue PM is ridiculous given the HoC numbers in particular

Yes. I don't defend her recent decisions, but 'rogue pm' stuff is just silly.

She's rogue because, as best as I can tell - and I may of course be wrong - she is talking to no-one, involving no-one, not getting the consent of others, not building a consensus, just acting as if she - and her views - are the only things that matter. (That's when she's not doing her Joan of Arc "I hear the voice of the People" shtick, while being one of those politicians utterly reluctant to speak to any actual real life people let alone consult them.)

The PM is primus inter pares but they are not the only one who makes the decisions. She fundamentally does not understand this and has made this whole issue about her alone. Even the EU get it when they ask whether what she is saying or asking for has democratic consent.

In a political structure such as ours the way she is operating is, I think, pretty much going rogue

And I disagree. If she is doing as you suggest then the Cabinet and Parliament could and should have acted to remove her or bypass her. If they have not, and they haven't, they are backing her actions even if they whinge at us about them.

Backing her is just one of the potential reasons. Maybe they don't fancy the limelight for themselves? Maybe they don't want to hold the dagger and are waiting to follow, not lead? Maybe they enjoy the perks and power a little too much and are keeping their heads down? Etc.

By backing her I didn't necessarily mean they are happy about it or fulsome in their efforts to back her. I mean that people can whine about not liking X all they want, but if they don't do anything to stop X, their actions are backing X whatever the reason for their inaction. Parliament has to date permitted May to carry on even if just by not filling the vacuum of leadership that is on display.

Finally managed to sign the petition. Not even sure I agree with it, but think it’s important to register my absolute disgust at the way Theresa May is conducting herself. She clearly does not believe in Parliamentary democracy.

MikeL said:

Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?

They're panicked and don't want no deal.

eek said:

kjohnw said:

1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU

Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.

Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU

Wonderful.


Nick Gutteridge:
EU official says that when leaders asked May what she was going to do if her deal was voted down, she would only reply that she was following her 'Plan A' of getting it through. It was then they decided 'she didn't have a plan so they needed to come up with one for her'.

Philip_Thompson said:

MikeL said:

Can anyone explain the EU's strategy in offering an unconditional extension?

They're panicked and don't want no deal.

Or they think Jezza can get them something better for them......

kjohnw said:

eek said:

kjohnw said:

1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU

Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.

Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU

Just for old time's sake:

Leave 52%
Remain 48%

SouthamObserver said:

Finally managed to sign the petition. Not even sure I agree with it, but think it’s important to register my absolute disgust at the way Theresa May is conducting herself. She clearly does not believe in Parliamentary democracy.

Same here, but I haven't been able to register my disgust - too many others doing likewise.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Chris said:

Isn't it great to have taken back control so decisively?

In case you missed it... we haven't left yet.

Of course - that's in the lap of the gods, isn't it? Or rather the EU27.

Cyclefree said:

IanB2 said:

kle4 said:

IanB2 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IanB2 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Can I ask who here was glad May won the confidence vote last December and if you still are?

The answer hangs on the replacement. It is Boris keeping her in her job.

In hindsight even Boris would have been better than May.

Unlike May, Boris wouldn't have dug himself into a bunker ranting and raving that nothing has changed.

There is no way that Boris would improve things.

Not now, but as bad as he is he is also flexible, which we need more of. He's not been flexible on the WA because he is outside and trying to become PM, but he'd twist and turn as much as he had to if he was at the top, god forbid.

Yet he has boxed himself into ever more extreme positions such that now he is shooting at 'leading' the handful of most extreme nutters.

And his judgment is appalling. At least we can expect May's deal to be a workable product, even if she is handling the tactics dreadfully. With Boris we'd probably have something unworkable or unaffordable.

Boris's WA would probably involve a Garden Bridge over the Channel.

Despite his better campaigning and (on a good day) presentational skills, Boris shares most of the weaknesses you spelled out for May downthread. Boris too is a one man band, wants to lead without doing the hard work to build alliances or make compromises, hates scrutiny, has no experience of leading a group of strong-minded colleagues - on top of which, unlike May, he has no eye for or interest in detail and makes his judgements largely on the emotional bigger picture.

Boris's career of lone roles - journalist, mayor - has played to his strengths, but he would be a disaster leading in the current circumstances. Boris's own self image as Churchill re-born has him like Churchill harrumphing around the country trading on charm and character; people forget the lengths those with judgement went to keeping Churchill from meddling in things he didn't understand.

kjohnw said:

eek said:

kjohnw said:

1.5 million of which 500000 was while we were all sleeping : Autobots rigged by EU

Nope, I was awake (I’m abroad and had prep to do for a 7am Uk meeting). While the numbers are high they are no different from UK ecommerce sales figures over a 24hr day.

Rubbish! Anyway until you get to 17.5 million you have no argument and in the UK we do not decide policy on online petitions we had a national referendum which you want to ignore because you despise democratic choices if it is not what you agree with just like the EU

Nope we are a Parliamentary democracy. All a petition does is suggest to parliament something that should be debated - which hopefully this will be so it removes one of the 3 options from the table.

Then as I stated earlier the final 2 options can be decided upon and the people paid and elected to make decisions will have finally done their job and made a decision.

Chris said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Chris said:

Isn't it great to have taken back control so decisively?

In case you missed it... we haven't left yet.

Of course - that's in the lap of the gods, isn't it? Or rather the EU27.

No, it is in the lap of parliament. It would take a single day to sort this out, just a series of eliminating votes.