politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Osborne’s Standard has surely got this right – TMay is in offi
Comments
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Your individual case does not invalidate the general observation.rpjs said:
Not necessarily, I work similar hours, get as much, if not more vacation than I did in the UK, and my commute is infinitely less stressful as it no longer involves Southeastern (the subway is worse than the tube I grant you). OK, so my employer is a European company, but my T&Cs were pretty much the same at my last job which was an American company.eristdoof said:
Even if you have money, in tghe US you often have to work longer hours, commute for longer and have half the annual leave compared to comparable work in the UK and Europe.rpjs said:
That’s true about all of the US: it’s a great place to live if you have money.Sean_F said:
California is generally badly run. Its schools are on a par with those of Mississippi, it has almost the highest State taxes in the USA, its infrastructure is falling apart, it's overregulated, and over-unionised.SeanT said:
I follow American news closely. They too have culture wars, and they too have a weird class of people using identity politics to deconstruct their own hardwon freedoms. BUT they have that Constituion. A vital bulwark against the madness. Plus they have a more vibrant economy. Especially in California, where I’d go. Maybe Santa Barbara.Floater said:
You might want to look more closely at American news before making that decision.SeanT said:
If I were 25 years old, I would emigrate tomorrow. Britain is finished. Europe is finished. Stagnation and religious strife await.Floater said:
It isCyclefree said:
An utter disgrace.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Imagine the furore and outrage if another school had caved into pressure from protesters and stopped teaching classes on Islam...SeanT said:This is infinitely depressing. We have lost. We have no backbone. The Enlightenment is over. Now comes the Darkening.
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1106196762690314240?s=21
I’d go to America. Where English freedoms and the Enlightenment are still, thank god, protected by that Constitution. And I’d buy lots of guns.
Or I’d go to Asia. The future.
It's great if you've got enough money to ignore these failings.0 -
Hey Siri show me the perfect metaphor for Brexit.AlastairMeeks said:
It's a British bomb.MarqueeMark said:
Germans, playing the long game again.....Theuniondivvie said:
Christ, he can't even get his 'I was belt and braces prepared for No Deal & look what those naughty terrorists have done' strategy right.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
As far as I can tell, even in most of Europe, she would be well to the Left of centre left.rpjs said:
She represents America's future far more than Trump and his base do._Anazina_ said:
Why? – nowt wrong with AOC. She has got serious game and would one considered a centre-left moderate were she European.dyedwoolie said:
Think yourself lucky we haven't got 650 Alexandria Ocasio-CortezsRichard_Tyndall said:
Why is it that I get the genuine impression that practically every person on PB is several magnitudes brighter than practically every MP in Parliament?dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
And that is not me being sarcastic. I believe that the vast majority of people on here, including all those I rant against daily, have a better understanding pf politics, the EU, real life and business than almost everyone sat in the Commons.
We are led by imbeciles.0 -
When I worked for a US Company in Germany (in '85), the US Citizens there got 2 weeks holiday, the Brits got 4 weeks and the Germans got 6 weeks as per their home company's arrangements.Sean_F said:
Overall, the standard of living is about a third higher in the US than it is here, but probably worse there the bottom quarter of the population than it is here.rpjs said:
Not necessarily, I work similar hours, get as much, if not more vacation than I did in the UK, and my commute is infinitely less stressful as it no longer involves Southeastern (the subway is worse than the tube I grant you). OK, so my employer is a European company, but my T&Cs were pretty much the same at my last job which was an American company.eristdoof said:
Even if you have money, in tghe US you often have to work longer hours, commute for longer and have half the annual leave compared to comparable work in the UK and Europe.rpjs said:
That’s true about all of the US: it’s a great place to live if you have money.Sean_F said:
California is generally badly run. Its schools are on a par with those of Mississippi, it has almost the highest State taxes in the USA, its infrastructure is falling apart, it's overregulated, and over-unionised.SeanT said:
I follow American news closely. They too have culture wars, and they too have a weird class of people using identity politics to deconstruct their own hardwon freedoms. BUT they have that Constituion. A vital bulwark against the madness. Plus they have a more vibrant economy. Especially in California, where I’d go. Maybe Santa Barbara.Floater said:
You might want to look more closely at American news before making that decision.SeanT said:
If I were 25 years old, I would emigrate tomorrow. Britain is finished. Europe is finished. Stagnation and religious strife await.Floater said:
It isCyclefree said:
An utter disgrace.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Imagine the furore and outrage if another school had caved into pressure from protesters and stopped teaching classes on Islam...SeanT said:This is infinitely depressing. We have lost. We have no backbone. The Enlightenment is over. Now comes the Darkening.
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1106196762690314240?s=21
I’d go to America. Where English freedoms and the Enlightenment are still, thank god, protected by that Constitution. And I’d buy lots of guns.
Or I’d go to Asia. The future.
It's great if you've got enough money to ignore these failings.0 -
So really things already considered have to be allowed back I guess.Pulpstar said:
I might be misremembering but I'm sure SNP amendments to revoke article 50 have been defeated before now.Foxy said:
As has No DealPulpstar said:On both potential Wollaston-2 and MV3 being ineligible because they've already been asked, hasn't a customs union been voted down about 5 times by the house already ?
So that leaves Revoke...0 -
So...if the Speaker is consistent in his rulings* then by calling Wollaston's amendemnt, ERG could have found a way to rule out both a second referendum AND MV3?AlastairMeeks said:
Well yes, but the House of Commons' own expressed view on the subject is clearly going to be a highly relevant consideration for the chair. The Bryant amendment seems highly risky to me for that reason.CarlottaVance said:
*planet-sized if, naturally0 -
What? Completely lacking in knowledge of pretty much anything, and unqualified for the job? That's just same-old same-old.rpjs said:
She represents America's future far more than Trump and his base do._Anazina_ said:
Why? – nowt wrong with AOC. She has got serious game and would one considered a centre-left moderate were she European.dyedwoolie said:
Think yourself lucky we haven't got 650 Alexandria Ocasio-CortezsRichard_Tyndall said:
Why is it that I get the genuine impression that practically every person on PB is several magnitudes brighter than practically every MP in Parliament?dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
And that is not me being sarcastic. I believe that the vast majority of people on here, including all those I rant against daily, have a better understanding pf politics, the EU, real life and business than almost everyone sat in the Commons.
We are led by imbeciles.0 -
Wasn’t the ‘different way of negotiating’ to sue the EU(?) for some reason or other. I’m sure that would have landed us in a much better position.kle4 said:
Christ, everything has to be about him doesn't it?williamglenn said:Trump on Brexit.
https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/11062200015503646730 -
On ethno-cultural issues, I would say maybe , but on social-economic ones, I'd say she might closer to the social democratic European mainstream.Sean_F said:
As far as I can tell, even in most of Europe, she would be well to the Left of centre left.rpjs said:
She represents America's future far more than Trump and his base do._Anazina_ said:
Why? – nowt wrong with AOC. She has got serious game and would one considered a centre-left moderate were she European.dyedwoolie said:
Think yourself lucky we haven't got 650 Alexandria Ocasio-CortezsRichard_Tyndall said:
Why is it that I get the genuine impression that practically every person on PB is several magnitudes brighter than practically every MP in Parliament?dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
And that is not me being sarcastic. I believe that the vast majority of people on here, including all those I rant against daily, have a better understanding pf politics, the EU, real life and business than almost everyone sat in the Commons.
We are led by imbeciles.0 -
C'mon Sunil, forget trains - here's a challenge to beat:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-475247600 -
Don't think the house has voted on a revokePulpstar said:
I might be misremembering but I'm sure SNP amendments to revoke article 50 have been defeated before now.Foxy said:
As has No DealPulpstar said:On both potential Wollaston-2 and MV3 being ineligible because they've already been asked, hasn't a customs union been voted down about 5 times by the house already ?
So that leaves Revoke...0 -
For MV3 I'd say yes. The deal would then be definitively dead, I'd say.MarqueeMark said:
So...if the Speaker is consistent in his rulings* then by calling Wollaston's amendemnt, ERG could have found a way to rule out both a second referendum AND MV3?AlastairMeeks said:
Well yes, but the House of Commons' own expressed view on the subject is clearly going to be a highly relevant consideration for the chair. The Bryant amendment seems highly risky to me for that reason.CarlottaVance said:
*planet-sized if, naturally
A second referendum might get a further chance if circumstances changed further in the coming days. Indeed, if MV3 is blocked, Theresa May might conceivably throw her weight behind it, given that no deal is ruled out.0 -
I would say you're spot on.Sean_F said:
Overall, the standard of living is about a third higher in the US than it is here, but probably worse there the bottom quarter of the population than it is here.rpjs said:
Not necessarily, I work similar hours, get as much, if not more vacation than I did in the UK, and my commute is infinitely less stressful as it no longer involves Southeastern (the subway is worse than the tube I grant you). OK, so my employer is a European company, but my T&Cs were pretty much the same at my last job which was an American company.eristdoof said:
Even if you have money, in tghe US you often have to work longer hours, commute for longer and have half the annual leave compared to comparable work in the UK and Europe.rpjs said:
That’s true about all of the US: it’s a great place to live if you have money.Sean_F said:
California is generally badly run. Its schools are on a par with those of Mississippi, it has almost the highest State taxes in the USA, its infrastructure is falling apart, it's overregulated, and over-unionised.SeanT said:
I follow American news closely. They too have culture wars, and they too have a weird class of people using identity politics to deconstruct their own hardwon freedoms. BUT they have that Constituion. A vital bulwark against the madness. Plus they have a more vibrant economy. Especially in California, where I’d go. Maybe Santa Barbara.Floater said:
You might want to look more closely at American news before making that decision.SeanT said:
If I were 25 years old, I would emigrate tomorrow. Britain is finished. Europe is finished. Stagnation and religious strife await.Floater said:
It isCyclefree said:
An utter disgrace.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Imagine the furore and outrage if another school had caved into pressure from protesters and stopped teaching classes on Islam...SeanT said:This is infinitely depressing. We have lost. We have no backbone. The Enlightenment is over. Now comes the Darkening.
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1106196762690314240?s=21
I’d go to America. Where English freedoms and the Enlightenment are still, thank god, protected by that Constitution. And I’d buy lots of guns.
Or I’d go to Asia. The future.
It's great if you've got enough money to ignore these failings.0 -
https://www.businessinsider.com/economist-survey-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-modern-monetary-theory-2019-3?r=US&IR=T_Anazina_ said:
Why? – nowt wrong with AOC. She has got serious game and would one considered a centre-left moderate were she European.dyedwoolie said:
Think yourself lucky we haven't got 650 Alexandria Ocasio-CortezsRichard_Tyndall said:
Why is it that I get the genuine impression that practically every person on PB is several magnitudes brighter than practically every MP in Parliament?dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
And that is not me being sarcastic. I believe that the vast majority of people on here, including all those I rant against daily, have a better understanding pf politics, the EU, real life and business than almost everyone sat in the Commons.
We are led by imbeciles.0 -
Perhaps I’m alone in my view, but I think it’s dangerous to conflate GDP per capita and standard of living.Sean_F said:
Overall, the standard of living is about a third higher in the US than it is here, but probably worse there the bottom quarter of the population than it is here.rpjs said:
Not necessarily, I work similar hours, get as much, if not more vacation than I did in the UK, and my commute is infinitely less stressful as it no longer involves Southeastern (the subway is worse than the tube I grant you). OK, so my employer is a European company, but my T&Cs were pretty much the same at my last job which was an American company.eristdoof said:
Even if you have money, in tghe US you often have to work longer hours, commute for longer and have half the annual leave compared to comparable work in the UK and Europe.rpjs said:
That’s true about all of the US: it’s a great place to live if you have money.Sean_F said:
California is generally badly run. Its schools are on a par with those of Mississippi, it has almost the highest State taxes in the USA, its infrastructure is falling apart, it's overregulated, and over-unionised.SeanT said:
I follow American news closely. They too have culture wars, and they too have a weird class of people using identity politics to deconstruct their own hardwon freedoms. BUT they have that Constituion. A vital bulwark against the madness. Plus they have a more vibrant economy. Especially in California, where I’d go. Maybe Santa Barbara.Floater said:
You might want to look more closely at American news before making that decision.SeanT said:
If I were 25 years old, I would emigrate tomorrow. Britain is finished. Europe is finished. Stagnation and religious strife await.Floater said:
It isCyclefree said:
An utter disgrace.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Imagine the furore and outrage if another school had caved into pressure from protesters and stopped teaching classes on Islam...SeanT said:This is infinitely depressing. We have lost. We have no backbone. The Enlightenment is over. Now comes the Darkening.
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1106196762690314240?s=21
I’d go to America. Where English freedoms and the Enlightenment are still, thank god, protected by that Constitution. And I’d buy lots of guns.
Or I’d go to Asia. The future.
It's great if you've got enough money to ignore these failings.
I think it’s worse for the bottom 80-90% in terms of lived experience.
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She's young, female and non-white. That's America's future.brokenwheel said:
What? Completely lacking in knowledge of pretty much anything, and unqualified for the job? That's just same-old same-old.rpjs said:
She represents America's future far more than Trump and his base do._Anazina_ said:
Why? – nowt wrong with AOC. She has got serious game and would one considered a centre-left moderate were she European.dyedwoolie said:
Think yourself lucky we haven't got 650 Alexandria Ocasio-CortezsRichard_Tyndall said:
Why is it that I get the genuine impression that practically every person on PB is several magnitudes brighter than practically every MP in Parliament?dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
And that is not me being sarcastic. I believe that the vast majority of people on here, including all those I rant against daily, have a better understanding pf politics, the EU, real life and business than almost everyone sat in the Commons.
We are led by imbeciles.0 -
I wonder if a backbench rebellion forcing a second referendum in the teeth of opposition from both front benches might be just what both May and Corbyn secretly desire. "Wasn't my fault guv."MarqueeMark said:
With the ERG's political nous, the other MPs will probably pass it - just to spite them.....rottenborough said:
https://twitter.com/elliotttimes/status/1106214740425089024Sean_F said:
I don't think that's cricket.dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
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If MV3 is refused because it’s the same as MV2 I’m sure the government could get another bit of paper from Brussels to tack on the end as an Appendix or something (Illustrative Flowchart of Backstop Extraction Options maybe?)0
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FWIW I think people are misreading the Wollaston amendment. Look at the signatories:
https://twitter.com/ChukaUmunna/status/1106087013890043904
It's TIG, the Lib Dems, Plaid and the SNP, plus two strongly anti-Corbyn Labour MPs (Coyle and Geraint Davies).
It isn't meant to succeed. It's so that when Corbyn finds some magic excuse not to back a second referendum ever, which frankly he will, the others can throw this at him/Labour.
It is, basically, Focus leaflet fodder (or the modern equivalent, viral Facebook clips). If/when everything goes to sh-t and we end up in a General Election, this is going to be thrown at every Labour candidate in the land: you refused this, you own Brexit.0 -
I'd prefer competence to a tick box list, thanks.rpjs said:
She's young, female and non-white. That's America's future.brokenwheel said:
What? Completely lacking in knowledge of pretty much anything, and unqualified for the job? That's just same-old same-old.rpjs said:
She represents America's future far more than Trump and his base do._Anazina_ said:
Why? – nowt wrong with AOC. She has got serious game and would one considered a centre-left moderate were she European.dyedwoolie said:
Think yourself lucky we haven't got 650 Alexandria Ocasio-CortezsRichard_Tyndall said:
Why is it that I get the genuine impression that practically every person on PB is several magnitudes brighter than practically every MP in Parliament?dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
And that is not me being sarcastic. I believe that the vast majority of people on here, including all those I rant against daily, have a better understanding pf politics, the EU, real life and business than almost everyone sat in the Commons.
We are led by imbeciles.0 -
I hate this argument. In any democracy people take decisions that will impact people who weren’t able to vote at that time, or will impact some people differently than themselves.Scott_P said:
So many better arguments for a second referendum.0 -
Yup, see my post @ 3:09. Wollaston has confirmed she's not pulling it.El_Capitano said:FWIW I think people are misreading the Wollaston amendment. Look at the signatories:
https://twitter.com/ChukaUmunna/status/1106087013890043904
It's TIG, the Lib Dems, Plaid and the SNP, plus two strongly anti-Corbyn Labour MPs (Coyle and Geraint Davies).
It isn't meant to succeed. It's so that when Corbyn finds some magic excuse not to back a second referendum ever, which frankly he will, the others can throw this at him/Labour.
It is, basically, Focus leaflet fodder (or the modern equivalent, viral Facebook clips). If/when everything goes to sh-t and we end up in a General Election, this is going to be thrown at every Labour candidate in the land: you refused this, you own Brexit.
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/11062339256036065300 -
I'd hope more than just being ethnically representative of the nation is desired. Truthfully I haven't seen why she upsets so many on the right though. If she's useless she wont continue to make waves as she has to date. I'd assume it was too early to tell on substance but she presents well.rpjs said:
She's young, female and non-white. That's America's future.brokenwheel said:
What? Completely lacking in knowledge of pretty much anything, and unqualified for the job? That's just same-old same-old.rpjs said:
She represents America's future far more than Trump and his base do._Anazina_ said:
Why? – nowt wrong with AOC. She has got serious game and would one considered a centre-left moderate were she European.dyedwoolie said:
Think yourself lucky we haven't got 650 Alexandria Ocasio-CortezsRichard_Tyndall said:
Why is it that I get the genuine impression that practically every person on PB is several magnitudes brighter than practically every MP in Parliament?dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
And that is not me being sarcastic. I believe that the vast majority of people on here, including all those I rant against daily, have a better understanding pf politics, the EU, real life and business than almost everyone sat in the Commons.
We are led by imbeciles.0 -
theyre not young people theyre adults and they couldnt be arsed to voteScott_P said:0 -
They really are the Judean People's Front. Suicide squad.....That showed em eh?Sean_F said:
Or the ERG might end up voting for it by mistake.MarqueeMark said:
With the ERG's political nous, the other MPs will probably pass it - just to spite them.....rottenborough said:
https://twitter.com/elliotttimes/status/1106214740425089024Sean_F said:
I don't think that's cricket.dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
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Agreed. We should never implement anything on that basis. It also undermines itself because any new consent will exclude a new group of non voters.numbertwelve said:
I hate this argument. In any democracy people take decisions that will impact people who weren’t able to vote at that time, or will impact some people differently than themselves.Scott_P said:
So many better arguments for a second referendum.0 -
It is this way of thinking that will ruin the USA.rpjs said:
She's young, female and non-white. That's America's future.brokenwheel said:
What? Completely lacking in knowledge of pretty much anything, and unqualified for the job? That's just same-old same-old.rpjs said:
She represents America's future far more than Trump and his base do._Anazina_ said:
Why? – nowt wrong with AOC. She has got serious game and would one considered a centre-left moderate were she European.dyedwoolie said:
Think yourself lucky we haven't got 650 Alexandria Ocasio-CortezsRichard_Tyndall said:
Why is it that I get the genuine impression that practically every person on PB is several magnitudes brighter than practically every MP in Parliament?dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
And that is not me being sarcastic. I believe that the vast majority of people on here, including all those I rant against daily, have a better understanding pf politics, the EU, real life and business than almost everyone sat in the Commons.
We are led by imbeciles.0 -
She seems very competent.brokenwheel said:I'd prefer competence to a tick box list, thanks.
The Cohen testimony was almost art.0 -
I've been on the receiving end of lost votes. That doesn't make it illegitimate for the winners to implement policies that I didn't agree with.Scott_P said:0 -
0
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Mr. Twelve, quite. It also adds some gerontophobia into an already poisonous political atmosphere.
The implication that votes are worth relatively less if cast by the elderly is a wretched one.0 -
No, but my point is that it varies widely by location and industry. Certainly there is much more market forces at play in the US in terms of what ts&cs people with sought-after skills can get.RoyalBlue said:
Your individual case does not invalidate the general observation.rpjs said:
Not necessarily, I work similar hours, get as much, if not more vacation than I did in the UK, and my commute is infinitely less stressful as it no longer involves Southeastern (the subway is worse than the tube I grant you). OK, so my employer is a European company, but my T&Cs were pretty much the same at my last job which was an American company.eristdoof said:
Even if you have money, in tghe US you often have to work longer hours, commute for longer and have half the annual leave compared to comparable work in the UK and Europe.rpjs said:
That’s true about all of the US: it’s a great place to live if you have money.Sean_F said:
California is generally badly run. Its schools are on a par with those of Mississippi, it has almost the highest State taxes in the USA, its infrastructure is falling apart, it's overregulated, and over-unionised.SeanT said:
I follow American news closely. They too have culture wars, and they too have a weird class of people using identity politics to deconstruct their own hardwon freedoms. BUT they have that Constituion. A vital bulwark against the madness. Plus they have a more vibrant economy. Especially in California, where I’d go. Maybe Santa Barbara.Floater said:
You might want to look more closely at American news before making that decision.SeanT said:
If I were 25 years old, I would emigrate tomorrow. Britain is finished. Europe is finished. Stagnation and religious strife await.Floater said:
It isCyclefree said:
An utter disgrace.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Imagine the furore and outrage if another school had caved into pressure from protesters and stopped teaching classes on Islam...SeanT said:This is infinitely depressing. We have lost. We have no backbone. The Enlightenment is over. Now comes the Darkening.
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1106196762690314240?s=21
I’d go to America. Where English freedoms and the Enlightenment are still, thank god, protected by that Constitution. And I’d buy lots of guns.
Or I’d go to Asia. The future.
It's great if you've got enough money to ignore these failings.0 -
''''Alanbrooke said:
theyre not young people theyre adults and they couldnt be arsed to voteScott_P said:
Some apostrophes for you.
Are you claiming that there are no young people in the country?0 -
I'm very doubtful about the desirability of a second referendum. I rather like Lisa Nandy's article in the Guardian this morning.Scott_P said:0 -
Indeed.numbertwelve said:
I hate this argument. In any democracy people take decisions that will impact people who weren’t able to vote at that time, or will impact some people differently than themselves.Scott_P said:
So many better arguments for a second referendum.
And by the same argument there will be people in Dr Wollaston's contingency who not only thought they were voting for a Conservative MP on a manifesto to implement Brexit but also people who were not old enough to vote her in 2017...
So Dr W should put her money where her mouth is and hold a by election.0 -
"May "went batshit" at Remain rebels" : "It was AN ORDER! Steiner's attack was AN ORDER!"CarlottaVance said:The unexpurgated version:
twitter.com/elliotttimes/status/11062261816433418250 -
Yes there's something in that. Although food is cheaper in the US the quality is dismal compared to Europe. And as for healthcare......RoyalBlue said:
I think it’s worse for the bottom 80-90% in terms of lived experience.0 -
She doesn't upset them, she's just an easy target. You should watch some of the long-form interviews she has done.kle4 said:
I'd hope more than just being ethnically representative of the nation is desired. Truthfully I haven't seen why she upsets so many on the right though. If she's useless she wont continue to make waves as she has to date. I'd assume it was too early to tell on substance but she presents well.rpjs said:
She's young, female and non-white. That's America's future.brokenwheel said:
What? Completely lacking in knowledge of pretty much anything, and unqualified for the job? That's just same-old same-old.rpjs said:
She represents America's future far more than Trump and his base do._Anazina_ said:
Why? – nowt wrong with AOC. She has got serious game and would one considered a centre-left moderate were she European.dyedwoolie said:
Think yourself lucky we haven't got 650 Alexandria Ocasio-CortezsRichard_Tyndall said:
Why is it that I get the genuine impression that practically every person on PB is several magnitudes brighter than practically every MP in Parliament?dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
And that is not me being sarcastic. I believe that the vast majority of people on here, including all those I rant against daily, have a better understanding pf politics, the EU, real life and business than almost everyone sat in the Commons.
We are led by imbeciles.0 -
If she didn't sack them it's nothing but words and fake contrition.CarlottaVance said:The unexpurgated version:
https://twitter.com/elliotttimes/status/11062261816433418250 -
About 1.5 million young people have turned 18 since the referendum.Alanbrooke said:
theyre not young people theyre adults and they couldnt be arsed to voteScott_P said:0 -
Im claiming Woollaston is a big fat hypocrite. a woman so concerned about the young she jammed £9k uni fees on themIshmael_Z said:
''''Alanbrooke said:
theyre not young people theyre adults and they couldnt be arsed to voteScott_P said:
Some apostrophes for you.
Are you claiming that there are no young people in the country?
ps apostophe opportunity for you.0 -
and ?williamglenn said:
About 1.5 million young people have turned 18 since the referendum.Alanbrooke said:
theyre not young people theyre adults and they couldnt be arsed to voteScott_P said:0 -
Would she mind expressing some of this passion in public? The speak-your-weight machine act has long outstayed its welcome.CarlottaVance said:The unexpurgated version:
https://twitter.com/elliotttimes/status/11062261816433418250 -
How did you expect them to vote?Alanbrooke said:
and ?williamglenn said:
About 1.5 million young people have turned 18 since the referendum.Alanbrooke said:
theyre not young people theyre adults and they couldnt be arsed to voteScott_P said:0 -
It's not opinion, it's demographics.RoyalBlue said:
It is this way of thinking that will ruin the USA.rpjs said:
She's young, female and non-white. That's America's future.brokenwheel said:
What? Completely lacking in knowledge of pretty much anything, and unqualified for the job? That's just same-old same-old.rpjs said:
She represents America's future far more than Trump and his base do._Anazina_ said:
Why? – nowt wrong with AOC. She has got serious game and would one considered a centre-left moderate were she European.dyedwoolie said:
Think yourself lucky we haven't got 650 Alexandria Ocasio-CortezsRichard_Tyndall said:
Why is it that I get the genuine impression that practically every person on PB is several magnitudes brighter than practically every MP in Parliament?dyedwoolie said:ERG adding names to Woolly amendment to ensure its voted on. Politics is now broken lol
And that is not me being sarcastic. I believe that the vast majority of people on here, including all those I rant against daily, have a better understanding pf politics, the EU, real life and business than almost everyone sat in the Commons.
We are led by imbeciles.0 -
It's mindblowing going onto Reddit and reading "life pro tips" about how to avoid having an ambulance called for you if you have an accident so that you can avoid the cost.anothernick said:
Yes there's something in that. Although food is cheaper in the US the quality is dismal compared to Europe. And as for healthcare......RoyalBlue said:
I think it’s worse for the bottom 80-90% in terms of lived experience.0 -
I voted to leave. I did not vote to ask the EU for permission to leave. Yet, it has been all along as if the UK electorate voted for the latter, the final straw being the vote to rule out the so called "no deal". The EU's decision to offer utterly punitive withdrawal terms amounts to their saying no to a request from the UK to ask for permission to leave. Their aim is to keep the UK in the EU, either as now or under May's BINO arrangement which would be even more advantageous to them than the current status quo.
With a resolute PM determined to leave, the exact opposite of what we have, the starting point for negotiations should have been for the UK to declare that it would be leaving, and that the EU could only choose whether to reach agreement with the UK on future trading arrangements before or after we left. We would make clear that we knew we could get better terms after leaving and that if the EU failed to negotiate seriously (which it signalled at the outset with the insistence on the backstop) we would walk away until after March 29th 2019. The UK would have declared that it did not accept that the EU would fail to negotiate after that date, and made it clear to all the world that the UK was perfectly prepared to wait because we knew we would get better terms after we were out. We would, because the question of whether or not the UK leaves would be off the table. We would publish draft tariff schedules that were as punitive as they could be to EU imports under the limitations of WTO terms, declaring that we hoped that they would last no more than a few weeks once the EU stance changed to a goal of negotiating a trade settlement in its interests, rather than of offering nothing to dissuade the UK from leaving. When the EU retailiated with plans for similar tariffs of their own, we would react with equinimity, pointing out that it was EU manufactured goods that were primarily at risk given the vast imbalance in trade between us. If bottlenecks developed at UK ports, on account of all the empty lorries leaving the UK, we would announced that priority would be given to those which were actually loaded. We would publish how the UK would use the short term tariffs on EU imported goods to offset the increased costs on UK consumers and businesses, such as through reductions or new exemptions from VAT. We would have started a public information campaign to highlight UK manufacturing and encourage the public to make informed choices (such as, for example, drawing attention to which cars are assembled in the UK). And I think public opinion would have hardened against remaining in those circumstances.0 -
Somehow I can't quite imagine Theresa "going batshit" at anyone...CarlottaVance said:The unexpurgated version:
https://twitter.com/elliotttimes/status/11062261816433418250 -
The basic rundown of that is they care more about playing politics than they do getting a second referendum, which is why supporters of a second referendum don't support their actions.El_Capitano said:FWIW I think people are misreading the Wollaston amendment. Look at the signatories:
https://twitter.com/ChukaUmunna/status/1106087013890043904
It's TIG, the Lib Dems, Plaid and the SNP, plus two strongly anti-Corbyn Labour MPs (Coyle and Geraint Davies).
It isn't meant to succeed. It's so that when Corbyn finds some magic excuse not to back a second referendum ever, which frankly he will, the others can throw this at him/Labour.
It is, basically, Focus leaflet fodder (or the modern equivalent, viral Facebook clips). If/when everything goes to sh-t and we end up in a General Election, this is going to be thrown at every Labour candidate in the land: you refused this, you own Brexit.
TIG is the Chuka vanity project.0 -
Are we in a "democracy"? Very old Greek word. Means lots of things to lots of people, depending on whether it supports their argument. I think we are a constitutional monarchy with a number of democratic institutions, an unwritten constitution and a decent appreciation for the rule of law. Not a democracy though. The clearest indication of that is that people seen terrified of having another referendum. If we were a "democracy" we would have already had one on the outcome of the negotiations! we certainly would not be walking blind into no-Deal Brexit for which there is no mandate, democratic or otherwise.numbertwelve said:
I hate this argument. In any democracy people take decisions that will impact people who weren’t able to vote at that time, or will impact some people differently than themselves.Scott_P said:
So many better arguments for a second referendum.0 -
I didnt, votes are called at a point in time under law, The same rules applied to me. You get to vote when you have reached an age where youre deemed a respo0nsible adult.williamglenn said:
How did you expect them to vote?Alanbrooke said:
and ?williamglenn said:
About 1.5 million young people have turned 18 since the referendum.Alanbrooke said:
theyre not young people theyre adults and they couldnt be arsed to voteScott_P said:0 -
@ royal Blue, I think that in general, public services are better here than in the US (although they vary a lot by State).
But, wages are higher and the cost of living lower, so people can afford better housing, more food, and better consumer goods.0 -
But Vote Leave repeatedly said No Deal wouldn’t happen.Wulfrun_Phil said:I voted to leave. I did not vote to ask the EU for permission to leave. Yet, it has been all along as if the UK electorate voted for the latter, the final straw being the vote to rule out the so called "no deal". The EU's decision to offer utterly punitive withdrawal terms amounts to their saying no to a request from the UK to ask for permission to leave. Their aim is to keep the UK in the EU, either as now or under May's BINO arrangement which would be even more advantageous to them than the current status quo.
With a resolute PM determined to leave, the exact opposite of what we have, the starting point for negotiations should have been for the UK to declare that it would be leaving, and that the EU could only choose whether to reach agreement with the UK on future trading arrangements before or after we left. We would make clear that we knew we could get better terms after leaving and that if the EU failed to negotiate seriously (which it signalled at the outset with the insistence on the backstop) we would walk away until after March 29th 2019. The UK would have declared that it did not accept that the EU would fail to negotiate after that date, and made it clear to all the world that the UK was perfectly prepared to wait because we knew we would get better terms after we were out. We would, because the question of whether or not the UK leaves would be off the table. We would publish draft tariff schedules that were as punitive as they could be to EU imports under the limitations of WTO terms, declaring that we hoped that they would last no more than a few weeks once the EU stance changed to a goal of negotiating a trade settlement in its interests, rather than of offering nothing to dissuade the UK from leaving. When the EU retailiated with plans for similar tariffs of their own, we would react with equinimity, pointing out that it was EU manufactured goods that were primarily at risk given the vast imbalance in trade between us. If bottlenecks developed at UK ports, on account of all the empty lorries leaving the UK, we would announced that priority would be given to those which were actually loaded. We would publish how the UK would use the short term tariffs on EU imported goods to offset the increased costs on UK consumers and businesses, such as through reductions or new exemptions from VAT. We would have started a public information campaign to highlight UK manufacturing and encourage the public to make informed choices (such as, for example, drawing attention to which cars are assembled in the UK). And I think public opinion would have hardened against remaining in those circumstances.
They also said we’d know this.
https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1105048571039150080?s=210 -
As opposed to the current Labour Party which is a Jeremy Corbyn vanity projectTheJezziah said:
The basic rundown of that is they care more about playing politics than they do getting a second referendum, which is why supporters of a second referendum don't support their actions.El_Capitano said:FWIW I think people are misreading the Wollaston amendment. Look at the signatories:
https://twitter.com/ChukaUmunna/status/1106087013890043904
It's TIG, the Lib Dems, Plaid and the SNP, plus two strongly anti-Corbyn Labour MPs (Coyle and Geraint Davies).
It isn't meant to succeed. It's so that when Corbyn finds some magic excuse not to back a second referendum ever, which frankly he will, the others can throw this at him/Labour.
It is, basically, Focus leaflet fodder (or the modern equivalent, viral Facebook clips). If/when everything goes to sh-t and we end up in a General Election, this is going to be thrown at every Labour candidate in the land: you refused this, you own Brexit.
TIG is the Chuka vanity project.0 -
The Greeks would have called our constitution a disguised oligarchy. Democratic decisions were taken by votes in assemblies, and citizens could call as many votes as they wanted on the same subject. But, they did exclude women, slaves, and non-citizens.Nigel_Foremain said:
Are we in a "democracy"? Very old Greek word. Means lots of things to lots of people, depending on whether it supports their argument. I think we are a constitutional monarchy with a number of democratic institutions, an unwritten constitution and a decent appreciation for the rule of law. Not a democracy though. The clearest indication of that is that people seen terrified of having another referendum. If we were a "democracy" we would have already had one on the outcome of the negotiations! we certainly would not be walking blind into no-Deal Brexit for which there is no mandate, democratic or otherwise.numbertwelve said:
I hate this argument. In any democracy people take decisions that will impact people who weren’t able to vote at that time, or will impact some people differently than themselves.Scott_P said:
So many better arguments for a second referendum.0 -
Tl;dr?Wulfrun_Phil said:I voted to leave. I did not vote to ask the EU for permission to leave. Yet, it has been all along as if the UK electorate voted for the latter, the final straw being the vote to rule out the so called "no deal". The EU's decision to offer utterly punitive withdrawal terms amounts to their saying no to a request from the UK to ask for permission to leave. Their aim is to keep the UK in the EU, either as now or under May's BINO arrangement which would be even more advantageous to them than the current status quo.
With a resolute PM determined to leave, the exact opposite of what we have, the starting point for negotiations should have been for the UK to declare that it would be leaving, and that the EU could only choose whether to reach agreement with the UK on future trading arrangements before or after we left. We would make clear that we knew we could get better terms after leaving and that if the EU failed to negotiate seriously (which it signalled at the outset with the insistence on the backstop) we would walk away until after March 29th 2019. The UK would have declared that it did not accept that the EU would fail to negotiate after that date, and made it clear to all the world that the UK was perfectly prepared to wait because we knew we would get better terms after we were out. We would, because the question of whether or not the UK leaves would be off the table. We would publish draft tariff schedules that were as punitive as they could be to EU imports under the limitations of WTO terms, declaring that we hoped that they would last no more than a few weeks once the EU stance changed to a goal of negotiating a trade settlement in its interests, rather than of offering nothing to dissuade the UK from leaving. When the EU retailiated with plans for similar tariffs of their own, we would react with equinimity, pointing out that it was EU manufactured goods that were primarily at risk given the vast imbalance in trade between us. If bottlenecks developed at UK ports, on account of all the empty lorries leaving the UK, we would announced that priority would be given to those which were actually loaded. We would publish how the UK would use the short term tariffs on EU imported goods to offset the increased costs on UK consumers and businesses, such as through reductions or new exemptions from VAT. We would have started a public information campaign to highlight UK manufacturing and encourage the public to make informed choices (such as, for example, drawing attention to which cars are assembled in the UK). And I think public opinion would have hardened against remaining in those circumstances.
Leaver shocked at entirely predictable events following Leave vote.0 -
That would mean Theresa May couldn't participate..........Sean_F said:
The Greeks would have called our constitution a disguised oligarchy. Democratic decisions were taken by votes in assemblies, and citizens could call as many votes as they wanted on the same subject. But, they did exclude women, slaves, and non-citizens.Nigel_Foremain said:
Are we in a "democracy"? Very old Greek word. Means lots of things to lots of people, depending on whether it supports their argument. I think we are a constitutional monarchy with a number of democratic institutions, an unwritten constitution and a decent appreciation for the rule of law. Not a democracy though. The clearest indication of that is that people seen terrified of having another referendum. If we were a "democracy" we would have already had one on the outcome of the negotiations! we certainly would not be walking blind into no-Deal Brexit for which there is no mandate, democratic or otherwise.numbertwelve said:
I hate this argument. In any democracy people take decisions that will impact people who weren’t able to vote at that time, or will impact some people differently than themselves.Scott_P said:
So many better arguments for a second referendum.0 -
Yes, agreed Mr. F. Our system continues to offer enough democracy to people to make them continue to believe they are part of a genuine democracy. Still, much preferred to many other systems, particularly when one considers Nigel Farage's mate in Russia, or Mr. Thicky's chum in VenezuelaSean_F said:
The Greeks would have called our constitution a disguised oligarchy. Democratic decisions were taken by votes in assemblies, and citizens could call as many votes as they wanted on the same subject. But, they did exclude women, slaves, and non-citizens.Nigel_Foremain said:
Are we in a "democracy"? Very old Greek word. Means lots of things to lots of people, depending on whether it supports their argument. I think we are a constitutional monarchy with a number of democratic institutions, an unwritten constitution and a decent appreciation for the rule of law. Not a democracy though. The clearest indication of that is that people seen terrified of having another referendum. If we were a "democracy" we would have already had one on the outcome of the negotiations! we certainly would not be walking blind into no-Deal Brexit for which there is no mandate, democratic or otherwise.numbertwelve said:
I hate this argument. In any democracy people take decisions that will impact people who weren’t able to vote at that time, or will impact some people differently than themselves.Scott_P said:
So many better arguments for a second referendum.0 -
Athenian democracy was actually closer, in terms of democratic immediacy, to the kind of anarchist ideas of continual participatory decision-making that would give many conservatives a fright.0
-
-
I see the evenings Parliamentary cabaret is up and running.
0 -
Nice damaging result for the second referendum, I'm sure the people votes lot are delighted with the Tiggers.Scott_P said:0 -
It would be funny if it weren't so serious.GIN1138 said:I see the evenings Parliamentary cabaret is up and running.
0 -
They might have something to say about Labour abstentions too.TheJezziah said:
Nice damaging result for the second referendum, I'm sure the people votes lot are delighted with the Tiggers.Scott_P said:0 -
Kier quoted a spokesperson when clarifying Labour's position, as they want a second referendum more than they want Chuka to be king of the universe they knew that now wasn't the time to go...AlastairMeeks said:
They might have something to say about Labour abstentions too.TheJezziah said:
Nice damaging result for the second referendum, I'm sure the people votes lot are delighted with the Tiggers.Scott_P said:0 -
Yes Labour is going to suffer the most from this.AlastairMeeks said:
They might have something to say about Labour abstentions too.TheJezziah said:
Nice damaging result for the second referendum, I'm sure the people votes lot are delighted with the Tiggers.Scott_P said:0 -
The ERG would probably feel they were more aligned to the less democratic and favoured model of many right wingers, the Spartans with Rees-Mogg fancying himself as a puny version of Leonidis dying a heroic death in Thermopylae against the hoards of Remainers, Europeans and mercenary immigrants from PersiaWhisperingOracle said:Athenian democracy was actually closer, in terms of democratic immediacy, to the kind of anarchist ideas of continual participatory decision-making that would give many conservatives a fright.
0 -
Like I say - that image is going to be plastered across every single Focus leaflet in the land at the next General Election.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Of course the big secret the elite won't acknowledge is that the working class generally want out, are aware they get screwed whoever rules and in a deal, a no deal or remain and couldn't give a shit about what benefits business and the middle classes and their 3 holidays a year.0
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Why would they vote for it? Labour do not believe in a second referendum.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Indeed. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mytilenian_Debate for a vote to commit genocide, followed by a vote the other way on exactly the same subject the following day. It was like being governed by Sun headline writers. Athens was not the wonder it was cracked up to be; look what it did to Socrates.WhisperingOracle said:Athenian democracy was actually closer, in terms of democratic immediacy, to the kind of anarchist ideas of continual participatory decision-making that would give many conservatives a fright.
0 -
Oh, and the People's Vote lot saying that they couldn't back a people's vote?
Brilliant.0 -
They are a f***ing disgrace. Corbyn is the biggest liar in the history of lying toe-rag leftiesEl_Capitano said:
Like I say - that image is going to be plastered across every single Focus leaflet in the land at the next General Election.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Optics of today - Corbyn is a lying POS. End of.
That's what they'll be saying down at t'boozer tonight0 -
Didn't they put out a statement earlier encouraging abstentions?AlastairMeeks said:
They might have something to say about Labour abstentions too.TheJezziah said:
Nice damaging result for the second referendum, I'm sure the people votes lot are delighted with the Tiggers.Scott_P said:0 -
Either Stephen Bush reads PB or great minds think alike...
https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/11062415668328448020 -
We can't have this every evening, I'm running low on snacks.OldKingCole said:
It would be funny if it weren't so serious.GIN1138 said:I see the evenings Parliamentary cabaret is up and running.
0 -
That is an awful look for the peoples vote. Surely labour are going to get hammered by the remainers over thisEl_Capitano said:
Like I say - that image is going to be plastered across every single Focus leaflet in the land at the next General Election.CarlottaVance said:0 -
It is nonsense to claim that the Leave campaign was based on the condition that the UK would only leave once an agreement was in place, and that if that could not happen then we would stay in the EU indefinitely. Was the Leave campaign really saying that the UK should fail to serve A50 in perpetuity if the EU failed to come to the negotiating table in good faith? Do you really believe that?TheScreamingEagles said:
But Vote Leave repeatedly said No Deal wouldn’t happen.
They also said we’d know this.
https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1105048571039150080?s=21
I read that paragraph as being conditional on the assumption that the EU would act in good faith. When it turned out very quickly that the EU were instead behaving as utter b******s, due to an early correct appreciation that their negotiating opponent was a weak jellyfish, their main negotiating goal being to bring the UK to a position when it changed its mind by offering nothing, then it was implicit that Plan B would need to kick in and A50 would have to be served.
0 -
Most PMs don't ever need to go "batshit".GIN1138 said:
Somehow I can't quite imagine Theresa "going batshit" at anyone...CarlottaVance said:The unexpurgated version:
https://twitter.com/elliotttimes/status/1106226181643341825
They just replace the offending Cabinet members. Otherwise, you no longer have collective responsibility of Cabinet. Anyone who can't accept that should be invited to walk out.0 -
334 - 85 crushing defeat for the peoples vote
Oh dear0 -
85 only for the Wollaston amendment.0
-
Wollaston amendment defeated 334 v 850
-
Ayes: 85
Noes: 334
Few votes for the People's Vote.....0 -
THERE IS NO MANDATE FOR NO DEALWulfrun_Phil said:
It is nonsense to claim that the Leave campaign was based on the condition that the UK would only leave once an agreement was in place, and that if that could not happen then we would stay in the EU indefinitely. Was the Leave campaign really saying that the UK should fail to serve A50 in perpetuity if the EU failed to come to the negotiating table in good faith? Do you really believe that?TheScreamingEagles said:
But Vote Leave repeatedly said No Deal wouldn’t happen.
They also said we’d know this.
https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1105048571039150080?s=21
I read that paragraph as being conditional on the assumption that the EU would act in good faith. When it turned out very quickly that the EU were instead behaving as utter b******s, due to an early correct appreciation that their negotiating opponent was a weak jellyfish, their main negotiating goal being to bring the UK to a position when it changed its mind by offering nothing, then it was implicit that Plan B would need to kick in and A50 would have to be served.0 -
Popcorn manufacturer shares anyone?AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
We can't have this every evening, I'm running low on snacks.OldKingCole said:
It would be funny if it weren't so serious.GIN1138 said:I see the evenings Parliamentary cabaret is up and running.
0 -
Hilariously so. “But what about Tarquin’s Erasmus overseas study in Berlin?”dyedwoolie said:Of course the big secret the elite won't acknowledge is that the working class generally want out, are aware they get screwed whoever rules and in a deal, a no deal or remain and couldn't give a shit about what benefits business and the middle classes and their 3 holidays a year.
0 -
Labour should be grateful the Noes were as many as 334.0
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So an absolute majority against a referendum, even if every abstainer had voted "Yes".IanB2 said:Wollaston amendment defeated 334 v 85
I wonder if this will FINALLY stop this delusion that Corbyn could trigger a second referendum if only he snapped his fingers.0 -
Wulfrun_Phil said:
I voted to leave.
.
You voted to leave. So f*cking what? What you DON'T get, as a leave voter, is some God given right to dictate the manner of the departure to everyone, remainer, leaver, abstainer or ineligible. The idea that May as a "Remainer" (debatable in itself) is unqualified to negotiate exit for that reason is symptomatic of the desire of leave voters (a status it is impossible to verify) to disenfranchise the remain electorate as to the manner of departure. May is as capable and more, given the party she leads got the most votes in the 2017 election, entitled to manage the departure them anyone else. More so than most prominent leavers who ran when their utopia didn't emerge. Lord knows I will never vote Tory but at least she has tried to leave in a manner that will not entrench bitterness in an already deeply divided country.
The fact that your side treated the 2016 result as a Holy Writ to impose on the whole country your version of what it should mean, whatever the consequences, has provoked a backlash and is why your side is losing the peace. Given your side showed, and are showing, no magnanimity in victory, you cannot expect graciousness in defeat. You won but that was not enough. You want to rub the losing side's noses in it. Such attitudes rarely end well.
The backstop is there because we, 70 years ago, imposed a border where a border had never been before, cutting across long established communities in the North West of Ireland, esp. in the border counties, which has created instability in that part of the EU. The EU, via Ireland, don't trust our assurances not to reimpose a "hard border". Why should they given our history towards Ireland and attitudes like yours that suggest that the issue is not "serious"? This is serious to them. The fact you say the Irish border issue is "Not serious" shows a total lack of understanding at the depth of feeling in the matter in the EU state to our west.0 -
PARLIAMENTARY SOVEREIGNTY0
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Nothing stopping Dr Wollaston from having a "People's Vote" in her own constituency if she wants one...0
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Good, I'd quite like a second referendum but if those who want one prioritise damaging Labour above having one then I'd rather we just got on with a soft brexit.Big_G_NorthWales said:334 - 85 crushing defeat for the peoples vote
Oh dear0 -
Interesting. Implies that without Labour abstentions it'd be pretty closeCarlottaVance said:Ayes: 85
Noes: 334
Few votes for the People's Vote.....0 -
I'd pile into Cadbury and cashew nut distributors.OldKingCole said:
Popcorn manufacturer shares anyone?AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
We can't have this every evening, I'm running low on snacks.OldKingCole said:
It would be funny if it weren't so serious.GIN1138 said:I see the evenings Parliamentary cabaret is up and running.
0 -
I am not shocked at the actions of the EU elite. I am not even shocked that a Remain supporting PM let them get away with it. I am just angry that she did.TOPPING said:
Tl;dr?Wulfrun_Phil said:I voted to leave. I did not vote to ask the EU for permission to leave. Yet, it has been all along as if the UK electorate voted for the latter, the final straw being the vote to rule out the so called "no deal". The EU's decision to offer utterly punitive withdrawal terms amounts to their saying no to a request from the UK to ask for permission to leave. Their aim is to keep the UK in the EU, either as now or under May's BINO arrangement which would be even more advantageous to them than the current status quo.
With a resolute PM determined to leave, the exact opposite of what we have, the starting point for negotiations should have been for the UK to declare that it would be leaving, and that the EU could only choose whether to reach agreement with the UK on future trading arrangements before or after we left. We would make clear that we knew we could get better terms after leaving and that if the EU failed to negotiate seriously (which it signalled at the outset with the insistence on the backstop) we would walk away until after March 29th 2019. The UK would have declared that it did not accept that the EU would fail to negotiate after that date, and made it clear to all the world that the UK was perfectly prepared to wait because we knew we would get better terms after we were out. We would, because the question of whether or not the UK leaves would be off the table. We would publish draft tariff schedules that were as punitive as they could be to EU imports under the limitations of WTO terms, declaring that we hoped that they would last no more than a few weeks once the EU stance changed to a goal of negotiating a trade settlement in its interests, rather than of offering nothing to dissuade the UK from leaving. When the EU retailiated with plans for similar tariffs of their own, we would react with equinimity, pointing out that it was EU manufactured goods that were primarily at risk given the vast imbalance in trade between us. If bottlenecks developed at UK ports, on account of all the empty lorries leaving the UK, we would announced that priority would be given to those which were actually loaded. We would publish how the UK would use the short term tariffs on EU imported goods to offset the increased costs on UK consumers and businesses, such as through reductions or new exemptions from VAT. We would have started a public information campaign to highlight UK manufacturing and encourage the public to make informed choices (such as, for example, drawing attention to which cars are assembled in the UK). And I think public opinion would have hardened against remaining in those circumstances.
Leaver shocked at entirely predictable events following Leave vote.0 -
That looks pretty good. The memory module (the large cylindrical bit in the middle) appears to have survived intact.CarlottaVance said:Be interesting to see how much they can retrieve:
https://twitter.com/BEA_Aero/status/11062215997353328640
