politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A year on since Corbyn’s anti-semitic mural row and the issue

Richard_Nabavi said:

On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

I am glad you mentioned this. I saw his response and posted this.

I find your response extraordinary. How can any reasonably educated person not understand the associations between anti-capitalist tropes and anti-Jewish ones and how they very often borrow from and meld into each other? This is standard stuff that has been around from the 19th century and has been used by all sorts of illiberal groups. You’d need to be blind to or ignorant of pretty much all 20th century history not to understand the references or the subliminal messages.

What was anti-capitalist about the Howard poster? It was exclusively focused on an individual making him look sinister and giving him a fob watch - in 2005 for God’s sake!

All the more curious for such a long time and apparently energetic anti-racist campaigner as Corbyn not to be aware. Odd really because self-proclaimed anti-racists are usually very quick to pounce on any unfortunate word or image by others and yet well-known and well-used anti-semitic tropes pass them by. Most curious.

On topic, the cartoon is good. The reason Labour have not closed this issue down is because, at heart, the leadership really doesn’t care.

Richard_Nabavi said:

MaxPB said:

Hold on, that stat doesn't pass the smell test at all. 1% of UK tax revenue linked to 10% of banking assets? Are we sure it isn't 1% of banking sector tax revenue, which makes a lot more sense.

Yes, it sounds like nonsense.

Well the logic of it is that 100% of UK banking assets generate 10% of tax revenue which is plainly ridiculous. The whole financial sector generates roughly 10% of tax revenue, approximately £70bn a year: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38218662

Unless you work on the basis that the whole revenue of the sector is generated by bank assets (which is obviously absurd) the 1% is plainly wrong.

SeanT said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

(snipped for length)The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

I've seen some pictures from the Nazi era without great interest, and don't recall anything in particular about them except that they were hysterically anti-Jewish. I'm not particularly defending the mural (I don't like crude satire, full stop) - my point is that glancing at it didn't make me think "here's an anti-Jewish mural" but rather "here's a mural about conspiracies and capitalists". I wasn't studying noses in the picture and wouldn't think of doing so unless asked. Richard and Sean disagree, as they're entitled to, but we all see things with different backgrounds.

Just to be clear - if I was religious at all I'd prefer to be Jewish than anything else - I like the culture and admire the behaviour that it encourages. Moreover, I think that Israel has a right to exist without threat and to defend itself by reasonable means, so you can call me a Zionist (though I don't think that wishing it was a secular state makes anyone anti-semitic, any more than eye-rolling about the Iranian religious state makes one anti-Moslem).

Being hostile to Jewish people seems to me not just horrible but ridiculous, like being against people whose names start with W. For that reason, I find it hard to take seriously the idea that anyone I know is anti-semitic, and I suspect Corbyn had the same problem when the issue came up - the instinctive reaction is "Of course we're not". Clearly a lot of people are worried so we have to take it seriously, but I don't actually think that many people in ANY part of the British spectrum are generally hostile to Jewish people. They simply have different opinions about Israel and Palestine - which is IMO a separate issue.

TheScreamingEagles said:

This is real and not a parody.

Flat-Earther Finally Explains Why Nobody Has Fallen Off The Edge

https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/flatearther-finally-explains-why-nobody-has-fallen-off-the-edge/

#DespiteBrexit.

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

Gallowgate said:

Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.

That is why I am green on our Chancellor for next PM. Of course, first there has to be a vacancy and then Hammond needs to stand.

Hammond hasn't a prayer. On the ConHome poll last week he was behind only Chris Grayling as the membership's most disliked cabinet member.

Richard_Nabavi said:

Benpointer said:

HYUFD said:

malcolmg said:

HYUFD said:

malcolmg said:

ydoethur said:

The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.

That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.

ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.

May has faults but I don't think even her enemies call her 'a nasty bit of work', cybernat in overdrive there

Take those blue specs off, she has the country on the brink of disaster all to further her own ends, despicable woman is the most polite thing I could post.

May has negotiated the only Deal available from the EU but not course for you destruction of the Union is the be all and end all

Don't be silly, there were always plenty of other deals available from the EU (e.g see Nick Palmer's post upthread on what Corbyn could do) but myopic May does not have the wit or the vision to consider them. She set out her own red lines without serious debate or consultation then arbitarily ditched some whilst treating others as sacrosanct.

That is why she will go down as one of the poorest PMs ever.

Do these plentiful 'other deals' available from the EU include the backstop and the non-negotiable Withdrawal Agreement? And when exactly could they have been agreed, given that the EU has stubbornly refused to negotiate the final status until after we leave?

There are many aspects of the Brexit clusterfuck to find annoying, but not the least of them is the failure of media interviewers to stop the nonsense from people like H. Benn MP about a "blind" Brexit, when the two-stage negotiation framework of a Withdrawal Agreement followed by future trade negotiations after Brexit is mandated by Article 50 and insisted on by the EU. It wasn't the PM's choice.

Stark_Dawning said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

Gallowgate said:

Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.

That is why I am green on our Chancellor for next PM. Of course, first there has to be a vacancy and then Hammond needs to stand.

Hammond hasn't a prayer. On the ConHome poll last week he was behind only Chris Grayling as the membership's most disliked cabinet member.

I very much doubt that the membership will be asked, and I'm coming round to the view that nor will the backbenchers. The men (and now women) in grey suits might come up with a Howard-style coronation.

NickPalmer said:

...
Being hostile to Jewish people seems to me not just horrible but ridiculous, like being against people whose names start with W. For that reason, I find it hard to take seriously the idea that anyone I know is anti-semitic, and I suspect Corbyn had the same problem when the issue came up - the instinctive reaction is "Of course we're not". Clearly a lot of people are worried so we have to take it seriously, but I don't actually think that many people in ANY part of the British spectrum are generally hostile to Jewish people. They simply have different opinions about Israel and Palestine - which is IMO a separate issue.

Again I don't want to lay into you personally, but that's another revealing comment. You've put your finger on the other reason why anti-semitism is so rife in the Labour Party now. As well as the Wicked Capitalists = Jews factor, you've got the 'we on the left are by definition morally superior and against all forms of racism so therefore we cannot possibly be anti-semitic' factor, which your comment illustrates nicely

In other words, I'm quite sure that Corbyn sincerely thinks that he has been 'fighting anti-semitism all his life'. I'm sure that in theory he has been, in the sense of saying things like 'I abhor all forms of racism'. There's scant evidence of him actually having done anything to back this up, though, and plenty of evidence of his actual anti-semitism. His protestations are no different to those of apartheid-era white South Africans who used to tell everyone that they weren't racists. No doubt they too were being sincere.

Meanwhile Jewish MPs have been hounded out of the party, and many Jewish people in the UK are making serious plans to leave the country if Corbyn becomes PM.

DecrepitJohnL said:

Stark_Dawning said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

Gallowgate said:

Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.

That is why I am green on our Chancellor for next PM. Of course, first there has to be a vacancy and then Hammond needs to stand.

Hammond hasn't a prayer. On the ConHome poll last week he was behind only Chris Grayling as the membership's most disliked cabinet member.

I very much doubt that the membership will be asked, and I'm coming round to the view that nor will the backbenchers. The men (and now women) in grey suits might come up with a Howard-style coronation.

The membership will go ballistic if that happens surely?

OblitusSumMe said:

There are many aspects of the Brexit clusterfuck to find annoying, but not the least of them is the failure of media interviewers to stop the nonsense from people like H. Benn MP about a "blind" Brexit, when the two-stage negotiation framework of a Withdrawal Agreement followed by future trade negotiations after Brexit is mandated by Article 50 and insisted on by the EU. It wasn't the PM's choice.

Indeed so.

DecrepitJohnL said:

Stark_Dawning said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

Gallowgate said:

Someone please end this sh*t show. Anyone.

The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.

Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.

Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.

That is why I am green on our Chancellor for next PM. Of course, first there has to be a vacancy and then Hammond needs to stand.

Hammond hasn't a prayer. On the ConHome poll last week he was behind only Chris Grayling as the membership's most disliked cabinet member.

I very much doubt that the membership will be asked, and I'm coming round to the view that nor will the backbenchers. The men (and now women) in grey suits might come up with a Howard-style coronation.

I don't think the men in grey suits have enough power for that at the moment

https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1105077667026485249

rottenborough said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

Corbyn is supposed to have fought racism (in all its forms) all his life. You would have thought that in all those decades he would have become something of an expert on racism and its associated forms, memes, symbols, metaphors etc etc.

But no.

Apparently not.

Okay, time for something that may be a little controversial, and very rambling:

It's easy to say you're anti-racist. It's easy to have people tell you you are anti-racist. Actually being against racism, in all its forms, is somewhat rather difficult. Especially when it comes to stereotypes, whether harmless or harmful.

In my own case, I sometimes have thoughts that are probably racist. I try to notice them before I say them (and usually manage to), and then try to query myself why I thought what I did. Was it a reasonable reaction, or something more base? Basically: I try to filter.

In fact, I'd guess many (most?) of us are like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXnM1uHhsOI

A problem might be that if, like Corbyn, you truly believe you're anti-racist, you don't go through that internal check process, and it's easy to stray over to the dark side. Or that you focus on one area of racism, e.g. fighting racism against blacks, and forget that there are many other forms.

But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?

TheScreamingEagles said:

This is real and not a parody.

Flat-Earther Finally Explains Why Nobody Has Fallen Off The Edge

https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/flatearther-finally-explains-why-nobody-has-fallen-off-the-edge/

It's real but the headline is disingenuous. The ice wall thing has been the standard flat-Earther position for ages.

Flat Earth is stupid enough without needing to misrepresent them.

Richard_Nabavi said:

NickPalmer said:

...
Being hostile to Jewish people seems to me not just horrible but ridiculous, like being against people whose names start with W. For that reason, I find it hard to take seriously the idea that anyone I know is anti-semitic, and I suspect Corbyn had the same problem when the issue came up - the instinctive reaction is "Of course we're not". Clearly a lot of people are worried so we have to take it seriously, but I don't actually think that many people in ANY part of the British spectrum are generally hostile to Jewish people. They simply have different opinions about Israel and Palestine - which is IMO a separate issue.

Again I don't want to lay into you personally, but that's another revealing comment. You've put your finger on the other reason why anti-semitism is so rife in the Labour Party now. As well as the Wicked Capitalists = Jews factor, you've got the 'we on the left are by definition morally superior and against all forms of racism so therefore we cannot possibly be anti-semitic' factor, which your comment illustrates nicely

In other words, I'm quite sure that Corbyn sincerely thinks that he has been 'fighting anti-semitism all his life'. I'm sure that in theory he has been, in the sense of saying things like 'I abhor all forms of racism'. There's scant evidence of him actually having done anything to back this up, though, and plenty of evidence of his actual anti-semitism. His protestations are no different to those of apartheid-era white South Africans who used to tell everyone that they weren't racists. No doubt they too were being sincere.

Meanwhile Jewish MPs have been hounded out of the party, and many Jewish people in the UK are making serious plans to leave the country if Corbyn becomes PM.

Perfectly put.

Lifelong campaigners against anti-Semitism do not spend decades sharing platforms with avowed anti-Semites, giving them money, taking money from them and calling them friends. Instead, they call anti-Semites out. Corbyn and his friends have never, ever done this except under duress and in the most genèric terms.

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1105074130284613633

Given that Theresa May is so relaxed about misleading the House of Commons and lying to the British people, can anyone explain why the EU should take her word on anything? With everything she says and does she reinforces the need for a backstop.

SouthamObserver said:

Given that Theresa May is so relaxed about misleading the House of Commons and lying to the British people, can anyone explain why the EU should take her word on anything? With everything she says and does she reinforces the need for a backstop.

That is unfair on her. The problem hasn't been dishonesty, it has been that she can't deliver, thanks to the parliamentary arithmetic and the political games being played by various groups of MPs.

Of course, from the EU's point of view that's an even stronger argument for the backstop, albeit counter-productive if it leads to no deal and no backstop..

SeanT said:

Cyclefree said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

Here is the mural

https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.

That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.

Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.

Corbyn grew up politically fighting 1970s National Front types, not 1930s Berlin.

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/rowenamason/status/1105079172848930816

"Nothing to suggest" she'll resign? We can assume she's writing her resignation speech right now then...

SouthamObserver said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

NickPalmer said:

...
For that reason, I find it hard to take seriously the idea that anyone I know is anti-semitic, and I suspect Corbyn had the same problem when the issue came up - the instinctive reaction is "Of course we're not". Clearly a lot of people are worried so we have to take it seriously, but I don't actually think that many people in ANY part of the British spectrum are generally hostile to Jewish people.

Again I don't want to lay into you personally, but that's another revealing comment. You've put your finger on the other reason why anti-semitism is so rife in the Labour Party now. As well as the Wicked Capitalists = Jews factor, you've got the 'we on the left are by definition morally superior and against all forms of racism so therefore we cannot possibly be anti-semitic' factor, which your comment illustrates nicely

In other words, I'm quite sure that Corbyn sincerely thinks that he has been 'fighting anti-semitism all his life'. I'm sure that in theory he has been, in the sense of saying things like 'I abhor all forms of racism'. There's scant evidence of him actually having done anything to back this up, though, and plenty of evidence of his actual anti-semitism. His protestations are no different to those of apartheid-era white South Africans who used to tell everyone that they weren't racists. No doubt they too were being sincere.

Meanwhile Jewish MPs have been hounded out of the party, and many Jewish people in the UK are making serious plans to leave the country if Corbyn becomes PM.

Perfectly put.

Lifelong campaigners against anti-Semitism do not spend decades sharing platforms with avowed anti-Semites, giving them money, taking money from them and calling them friends. Instead, they call anti-Semites out. Corbyn and his friends have never, ever done this except under duress and in the most genèric terms.

What was revealing about the story in yesterday’s Sunday Times about the leadership interfering in disciplinary cases was Milne intervening in relation to one case sayong that Corbyn was particularly interested. And the case in which he was interested? That of Glyn Secker, being investigated for particiapting in a Holocaust-denial discussion forum - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2019-03-10/news/seamus-milne-and-corbyn-aide-blocked-anti-semitism-suspensions-f7c3zjc0j.

Even if one were to accept - at a push - that some pro-Palestinians might be excused their anti-semitism (and, to be clear, I don’t) there can be no possible excuse for Holocaust denial and, yet, Corbyn was reputedly interested in protecting such a person. People who indulge in, excuse, justify or turn a blind eye to Holocaust denial are utterly beyond the pale. In my book, anyway.

SeanT said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

Cyclefree said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

Here is the mural

https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.

That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.

Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.

Corbyn grew up politically fighting 1970s National Front types, not 1930s Berlin.

Yet he constantly tells us how his parents fought at the battle of Cable Street - against anti-Semites. It’s his great badge of honour. Yet weirdly he is blind to the most screamingly obvious memes, symbols, tropes and signifiers of Jew hatred. Did his Mum hide them from him? Odd.

Does he say on which side?

Cyclefree said:

SeanT said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

Cyclefree said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

Here is the mural

https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.

That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.

Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.

Corbyn grew up politically fighting 1970s National Front types, not 1930s Berlin.

Yet he constantly tells us how his parents fought at the battle of Cable Street - against anti-Semites. It’s his great badge of honour. Yet weirdly he is blind to the most screamingly obvious memes, symbols, tropes and signifiers of Jew hatred. Did his Mum hide them from him? Odd.

How do we know that this is true? And even if they did why is it his badge of honour? He wasn’t even born then.

It may not be. It used to be "my parents' generation" then became his parents. More's the point, Piers Corbyn's parents were there too.

Fenman said:

SeanT said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

Cyclefree said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

Here is the mural

https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.

That doesn’t stack up. If you’re a dedicated anti-racist campaigner you know - or should know - about this stuff. Also, the Nazi period is studied in schools and these sorts of cartoons are used to illustrate why they were so evil. So it’s not as unusual as all that. And the Labour Party has until recently been the natural political home for Britain’s Jewish community so one would expect its long-standing members to be familiar with Nazi and Fascist memes, especially given how often they call others Nazis and Fascists.

Absolutely right. One of the criticisms of the history curriculum in English schools is that it focuses too MUCH on the Nazi era, the anti Semitism, the use of racist propaganda like these cartoons. Most children are exposed to them, even if they later forget.

It beggars belief that educated adult politicians cannot see what a lot of kids would easily grasp. Especially politicians on the Left who are supposedly dedicated anti-racists. As Richard Nabavi says, there is some kind of pathology at work. A form of moral blindness. Wilful or otherwise.

Corbyn grew up politically fighting 1970s National Front types, not 1930s Berlin.

Yet he constantly tells us how his parents fought at the battle of Cable Street - against anti-Semites. It’s his great badge of honour. Yet weirdly he is blind to the most screamingly obvious memes, symbols, tropes and signifiers of Jew hatred. Did his Mum hide them from him? Odd.

Does he say on which side?

As I said earlier. It beggars belief that someone who claims to have fought racism all his life and indeed implies it is virtually a full time occupation, still has not managed to understand the basic tropes of racism.

https://twitter.com/AnnaJerzewska/status/1105084736312168448

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1105085068979130368

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105086610616537090

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1105077667026485249

Well they are going to end up with No Deal or no Brexit/BINO, more likely the latter, unless they make their mind up

Does TSE deserve credit for this?

https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1104085624443883521

Martin_Kinsella said:

Cyclefree said:

SouthamObserver said:

Perfectly put.

Lifelong campaigners against anti-Semitism do not spend decades sharing platforms with avowed anti-Semites, giving them money, taking money from them and calling them friends. Instead, they call anti-Semites out. Corbyn and his friends have never, ever done this except under duress and in the most genèric terms.

What was revealing about the story in yesterday’s Sunday Times about the leadership interfering in disciplinary cases was Milne intervening in relation to one case sayong that Corbyn was particularly interested. And the case in which he was interested? That of Glyn Secker, being investigated for particiapting in a Holocaust-denial discussion forum - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2019-03-10/news/seamus-milne-and-corbyn-aide-blocked-anti-semitism-suspensions-f7c3zjc0j.

Even if one were to accept - at a push - that some pro-Palestinians might be excused their anti-semitism (and, to be clear, I don’t) there can be no possible excuse for Holocaust denial and, yet, Corbyn was reputedly interested in protecting such a person. People who indulge in, excuse, justify or turn a blind eye to Holocaust denial are utterly beyond the pale. In my book, anyway.

Of course there is no excuse for holocaust denial however being Pro-Palestinian does not make a person an anti-semite no more than being pro Israeli makes someone and Islamophobe.

I agree. That is why I used the phrase “some”. There are plenty of people who are pro-Palestinian and want them to have a home who manage not to be anti-semitic. But there have been some who have appeared to justify anti-semitism by those who are pro-Palestinian by implying that it is a justified reaction to what Palestinians suffer. I think it possible to be anti Israel’s treatment of Palestinians without being anti-semitic. And, indeed, it’s important to try and make that distinction if one is serious about wanting to try and help achieve a peaceful resolution.

It is revealing though that Corbyn thinks that someone indulging in Holocaust denial is, if that report is true, worthy of his support. Though not that surprising given that it was revealed a while back that he too had been a member of several Facebook groups where Holocaust denial was widespread (though not by him). When it was put to him, he stated that he was “not aware”.

JosiasJessop said:

Okay, time for something that may be a little controversial, and very rambling:

It's easy to say you're anti-racist. It's easy to have people tell you you are anti-racist. Actually being against racism, in all its forms, is somewhat rather difficult. Especially when it comes to stereotypes, whether harmless or harmful.

In my own case, I sometimes have thoughts that are probably racist. I try to notice them before I say them (and usually manage to), and then try to query myself why I thought what I did. Was it a reasonable reaction, or something more base? Basically: I try to filter.

In fact, I'd guess many (most?) of us are like that.

A problem might be that if, like Corbyn, you truly believe you're anti-racist, you don't go through that internal check process, and it's easy to stray over to the dark side. Or that you focus on one area of racism, e.g. fighting racism against blacks, and forget that there are many other forms.

But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?

I think that's all very fair except the last para, which IMO strays into "everyone must surely see a picture the way I see it" territory. I've fortunately never really come across anti-semitism and haven't given thought to looking for tropes - basically if someone said something offensive about Jewish people, I'd tell them to stop talking rubbish, and that's all that's seemed necessary. (I didn't go to a school in the UK so can't comment on whether kids see lots of Nazi posters in history lessons - I certainly didn't in my American-curriculum school.)

Where I do part company with some on this issue is that I don't agree that (as a former Chief Rabbi apparently argued) people who don't support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state are by definition antisemitic. That seems to me to go too far, and to tar a category of people with no prejudices about Jews who think that religious/communal states are a bad thing and/or that it'd be better if Israel was a secular Jewish+Palestinian state. That view is hopelessly unrealistic, but it's not an inherently evil thought.

Breaking: PM confirms there will be a vote tomorrow, but won't say anything about what it will be on.

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1105083646531330049

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

Here is the mural

https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.

The mural is as anti-Semitic as it gets.

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Sean_F said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1105077667026485249

If true, that's pretty depressing.

Theresa May expects the facts to speak for themselves. In politics, they don’t.

If Brexit fails the biggest reason will be the total absence of Theresa’s political skills, not her analytical skills or work ethic.

I think a Blair or even a Cameron could have got this Deal passed (without any change to the text whatsoever) simply by a much better political operation, which is entirely absent in her nature.

I think it comes down to the point Osborne made about politics having moved on from the era when 24-hour news started where it was all about message discipline. There was no way for them to counter the deal being trashed simultaneously by Leavers and Remainers.

It goes far beyond that.

It’s basic party management, and tea room ego management, that she’s failed at, including bringing so many nominally into the heart of Government and then alienating them by exclusion from her inner circle.

https://twitter.com/DavidMerson/status/1105090044845572097

https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1105091001138507783

NickPalmer said:

JosiasJessop said:

But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?

I think that's all very fair except the last para, which IMO strays into "everyone must surely see a picture the way I see it" territory. I've fortunately never really come across anti-semitism and haven't given thought to looking for tropes - basically if someone said something offensive about Jewish people, I'd tell them to stop talking rubbish, and that's all that's seemed necessary. (I didn't go to a school in the UK so can't comment on whether kids see lots of Nazi posters in history lessons - I certainly didn't in my American-curriculum school.)

Where I do part company with some on this issue is that I don't agree that (as a former Chief Rabbi apparently argued) people who don't support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state are by definition antisemitic. That seems to me to go too far, and to tar a category of people with no prejudices about Jews who think that religious/communal states are a bad thing and/or that it'd be better if Israel was a secular Jewish+Palestinian state. That view is hopelessly unrealistic, but it's not an inherently evil thought.

While I would agree in theory I think you need to make the distinction between what you might want if you were starting from a blank sheet - where you might take the position that states should not be based on a credal basis - and where you already have such a state and you are arguing for its destruction. Destroying a state very often involves the destruction or expulsion of its people and when that people is Jewish it is hard to see how that is not anti-semitic. The position of Hamas, for instance, is that there should be no Jews living anywhere between the Jordan and the Mediterranean.

Also, those who take the view that religious/communal states are bad things - like those arguing that Israel is ipso facto racist - are very rarely found arguing that other such religious/communal states like, say, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or others based on a credal culture should be destroyed or made secular.

So a cynic might suppose that this dislike of religious/communal states - when it is only and somewhat obsessively directed at one state - is possibly animated by something other than a love of secularism.

For someone who is a committed anti racism campaigner Corbyn certainly knows some bigots and anti-semites.

To not know that mural was overtly anti-semitic really is odd.

Just what sort anti racism campaigns has Corbyn been on to not know that, or is he just so dense light bends around him?

It is like a passionate cricket fan not knowing what an LBW is.

SouthamObserver said:

NickPalmer said:

JosiasJessop said:

Okay, time for something that may be a little controversial, and very rambling:

It's easy to say you're anti-racist. It's easy to have people tell you you are anti-racist. Actually being against racism, in all its forms, is somewhat rather difficult. Especially when it comes to stereotypes, whether harmless or harmful.

In my own case, I sometimes have thoughts that are probably racist. I try to notice them before I say them (and usually manage to), and then try to query myself why I thought what I did. Was it a reasonable reaction, or something more base? Basically: I try to filter.

In fact, I'd guess many (most?) of us are like that.

A problem might be that if, like Corbyn, you truly believe you're anti-racist, you don't go through that internal check process, and it's easy to stray over to the dark side. Or that you focus on one area of racism, e.g. fighting racism against blacks, and forget that there are many other forms.

But IMV anyone seeing that mural and not recognising anti-Jewish tropes and being concerned probably cannot say they're not anti-Semitic. Because if you don't recognise that, what other anti-Semitic tropes do you not recognise, or even use?

I think that's all very fair except the last para, which IMO strays into "everyone must surely see a picture the way I see it" territory. I've fortunately never really come across anti-semitism and haven't given thought to looking for tropes - basically if someone said something offensive about Jewish people, I'd tell them to stop talking rubbish, and that's all that's seemed necessary. (I didn't go to a school in the UK so can't comment on whether kids see lots of Nazi posters in history lessons - I certainly didn't in my American-curriculum school.)

Where I do part company with some on this issue is that I don't agree that (as a former Chief Rabbi apparently argued) people who don't support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state are by definition antisemitic. That seems to me to go too far, and to tar a category of people with no prejudices about Jews who think that religious/communal states are a bad thing and/or that it'd be better if Israel was a secular Jewish+Palestinian state. That view is hopelessly unrealistic, but it's not an inherently evil thought.

The difference between you and Corbyn, Nick, is that he has spent decades in the company of avowed anti-Semites without one telling them to stop talking rubbish.

Someone that looks at that mural and says they don't realise it is anti-Semitic is either lying or is so naïve they should not be in politics as they have no perspective on history. I am pretty sure I know which describes Corbyn, but not sure where that leaves Nick Palmer

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1105091001138507783

Tugendhat would be our first French Prime Minister.

kjh said:

Casino_Royale said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

SeanT said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:

Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.

I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.

That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.

Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer

https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX

https://goo.gl/images/jw884b

Here is the mural

https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi

I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.

The mural is as anti-Semitic as it gets.

I don't often agree with CR on much, but I'm 100% with him on that one. I tend to take things on face value and don't tend to read much into stuff, but I didn't have much of a problem noticing the message in that mural.

It's interesting that one of the latter Harry Potter films used the crushed-people motif to show evil in the Voldemortised Ministry of Magic:
https://www.tripadvisor.nl/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g2691242-d2147749-i65327415-Warner_Bros_Studio_Tour_London_The_Making_of_Harry_Potter-Leavesden_Hert.html

Panelbase has a shift in favour of No Deal amongst Scots, they now back independence by 52% to 48% in the event of No Deal compared to 59% to 41% previously. The Deal figure unchanged on 53% to 47%

https://wingsoverscotland.com/one-way-or-the-other/

Cyclefree said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ex-chief-prosecutor-alison-saunders-rebuked-over-1m-job-with-city-firm-w685t8ltt?utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=newsletter_121&utm_medium=email&utm_content=121_5390991&CMP=TNLEmail_118918_5390991_121

The mystery to me is why anyone would want to hire her given the shambles she presided over.

Perhaps she could not get a seat as a Labour MP......?

In the interests of political balance, could you not think of any leading Conservative MPs (anagram) currently presiding over a shambles?

Cyclefree said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ex-chief-prosecutor-alison-saunders-rebuked-over-1m-job-with-city-firm-w685t8ltt?utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=newsletter_121&utm_medium=email&utm_content=121_5390991&CMP=TNLEmail_118918_5390991_121

The mystery to me is why anyone would want to hire her given the shambles she presided over.

Perhaps she could not get a seat as a Labour MP......?

One of those cozy merry-go-rounds of the great and the good.

Nigel_Foremain said:

SeanT: Is it true what was alleged on here the other day that you suggested sometime ago that Muslims should be deported from the UK, or was that a misquote?

It is true, in Sean's defence he apologised the next day to me for wanting to deport me to Madagascar.