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  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The Brexiters are the ones that are lacking in political decency.

    It could be argued that "political decency" cost the Remain campaign when David Cameron refused to allow Boris to be tagged as "a Fucking Liar" every time BoZo appeared in public.

    Of course he did it for narrow party ends, but the result was the same...
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Because right wing English nationalists control the Conservative party and Labour, which is also now an English party, is unelectable. For the Scots and the Northern Irish that has significant on-going implications. Either it leads to an entirely new constitutional arrangement or the UK comes to an end. Given the complete lack of political imagination that exists in Westminster, I expect it to be the latter.

    I've never understood what's so precious about the UK with the minority nations continually bitching that there are more English in the Union than all of them put together, and the English don't pay them enough.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    malcolmg said:

    I assume that is a NO

    Let's talk again after March 29th...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507

    The Brexiters are the ones that are lacking in political decency.
    There are plenty of politically indecent remainers.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    IanB2 said:

    The utility of the traditional UNS model is breaking down, with the declining party allegiance and political volatility, particularly the shift away from class-based voting patterns. This is what made the last election difficult to predict at local level, with surprises such as Canterbury, Mansfield and Kensington for those who didn't trust the YouGov model. I don't see any reason why things should be different next time - indeed with TIG and potential electoral deals, the seats that might change hands could become even harder to identify in advance.

    Portsmouth South was also pretty sensational with Labour winning from third place. Likely Labour hold next time as anti-Tory vote consolidates behind the new Labour MP - plus first time incumbency bonus.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    The Brexiters are the ones that are lacking in political decency.
    And the Remoaners are obviously delusional?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507
    Chris said:

    I understood that your objection was to the general principle of politicians taking quasi-judicial decisions.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,552

    I think he's right. We need to get the Brexiters out of public life.
    No. We need to get the fraudsters out of public life - you know, those who stood for an election under a manifesto saying they would implement Brexit, when they clearly had no intention of doing any such thing. They will all have been remunerated by well in excess of £100k since their election in 2017. Why is that not Misconduct in a Public Office?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    malcolmg said:

    I assume that is a NO
    He probably doesn't think you'll pay
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    He probably doesn't think you'll pay

    That's not fair.

    I like turnips...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,552
    justin124 said:

    Portsmouth South was also pretty sensational with Labour winning from third place. Likely Labour hold next time as anti-Tory vote consolidates behind the new Labour MP - plus first time incumbency bonus.
    Incumbency bonus is going to be case by case. There were some spectacularly bad Labour MPs elected in 2017....
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Yep - Corbyn Labour guarantees Tory governments. Until Labour members decide that’s not a good thing nothing changes.

    Yep - Corbyn Labour guarantees Tory governments. Until Labour members decide that’s not a good thing nothing changes.

    But you were predicting 160 - 180 seats for Labour just an hour before the release of the Exit Poll - indeed even two hours later you were inclined to rubbish it!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,101

    I've never understood what's so precious about the UK with the minority nations continually bitching that there are more English in the Union than all of them put together, and the English don't pay them enough.
    CUCKOO ALERT
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Scott_P said:

    That's not fair.

    I like turnips...
    According to Pepys, it'll probably be oats
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,526
    NeilVW said:

    Sir John Curtice has done this analysis, in the Cowley/Kavanagh GE 2017 book.

    ...the Conservatives performed less well and Labour better in seats with more young adults - though once we take this into account, there is no indication...that constituencies with large numbers of students were particularly likely to swing towards the [Labour] party.
    I'm not sure which constituencies have large numbers of young people who are not students - some deprived inner city constituencies perhaps.

    But if you compare the Reading constituencies, as an example, Labour did much better in the student heavy Reading East.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,101
    Scott_P said:

    Let's talk again after March 29th...
    have faith in the courage of your convictions before then, it is only money.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    malcolmg said:

    CUCKOO ALERT
    caps gives it away
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,176
    Just got latest Council Tax statement from Newcastle City Council. Northumbria Police and Crime Commisionier are increasing their tax by over 20%! What is that even paying for?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    edited March 2019
    malcolmg said:

    have faith in the courage of your convictions before then, it is only money.
    our money probably even if you're paying
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,101

    He probably doesn't think you'll pay
    That comment says a lot about you and none of it pleasant. Crawl back under your rock.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,526

    Just got latest Council Tax statement from Newcastle City Council. Northumbria Police and Crime Commisionier are increasing their tax by over 20%! What is that even paying for?

    Final salary pensions.
  • I think he's right. We need to get the Brexiters out of public life.
    Well it all started from the Remainers refusing to accept the result of the Referendum. And that is 'just not cricket'.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    malcolmg said:

    That comment says a lot about you and none of it pleasant. Crawl back under your rock.
    strong on imagination as usual - no sense of reality but happy to be judgemental
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    And the Remoaners are obviously delusional?
    You demonstrate the point.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,101

    our money probably even if you're paying
    Green cheese there because I have lots more than a loser like you. Get a job and try to emulate me rather than press your twisted jealous face against the window wishing you were loaded.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918
    Sean_F said:

    I understood that your objection was to the general principle of politicians taking quasi-judicial decisions.
    Obviously I didn't say that. I know the quote facility can be a bit of a pain when the messages get too long, but please don't make it appear that people have said things that they haven't.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    On tòpic, I think Alastair underestimates how many people voted Labour in 2017 to prevent the kind of Brexit May was advocating. If the next General Election takes place after we’ve left - which it almost certainly will - that reason goes away. I think turnout next time will be very interesting to keep an eye on.

    On tòpic, I think Alastair underestimates how many people voted Labour in 2017 to prevent the kind of Brexit May was advocating. If the next General Election takes place after we’ve left - which it almost certainly will - that reason goes away. I think turnout next time will be very interesting to keep an eye on.

    I disagree there. 2017 was not a Brexit election despite it being May's justification for calling it. People were already sick to death of the subject and very receptive to other issues being raised by Corbyn. I will be surprised if it features more prominently in the next campaign beyond the first week.Attitudes to Corbyn were much more salient than Brexit . He was clearly very much a marmite facor - being highly repellant to traditional white working class voters whilst engaging the young and previous non-voters.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    malcolmg said:

    Green cheese there because I have lots more than a loser like you. Get a job and try to emulate me rather than press your twisted jealous face against the window wishing you were loaded.
    Grow up!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,101

    Grow up!
    Get lost
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,526
    Scott_P said:

    It could be argued that "political decency" cost the Remain campaign when David Cameron refused to allow Boris to be tagged as "a Fucking Liar" every time BoZo appeared in public.

    Of course he did it for narrow party ends, but the result was the same...
    Perhaps because Cameron was "a Fucking Liar" himself ?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Sean_F said:

    The Tories won't find it hard to defend Harrow East, Hendon, and Finchley & Golders Green. That leaves Richmond a likely loss, Chipping Barnet, ditto, Chingford, and Putney which I'd expect them to hold (though much will turn on whether Justine Greening runs as an independent)

    On the other side of the ledger, I'd expect them to regain Kensington, and for Battersea to be very tight.
    The Tories will be helped significantly in Hendon and Finchley & Golders Green by the Anti-Semitic row.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    malcolmg said:

    Get lost
    You can have too much fun, so I shall - bye
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Well it all started from the Remainers refusing to accept the result of the Referendum. And that is 'just not cricket'.
    It all started with the heavy use of lies by the leave campaign during the campaign itself. I remember the last campaign. It was a lot more civilised.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Sean_F said:

    So, your solution to a lack of political decency is to try and shut half the population out of public life?
    Not exactly democratic is he
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,552
    Can someone please take TSE's belt and shoelaces....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,101

    You can have too much fun, so I shall - bye
    You will not be missed cretin
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Sean_F said:

    Labour's favourability rating (according to Yougov) is now no better than the Conservatives'. And, that's very unusual. Since 1945, Labour has usually been viewed more favourably than the Conservatives.
    Why would anyone be surprised by this?

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Floater said:

    Not exactly democratic is he
    Lying isn't democratic.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918
    Sean_F said:

    I understood that your objection was to the general principle of politicians taking quasi-judicial decisions.
    And again - regarding the substantial point - I think it would be far better if important decisions such as these were taken judicially, not by politicians such as Sajid Javid. The right of judicial appeal is of very little consolation if people end up being wrongly deprived of citizenship for years, and if family members die as a result of the decision.

    What I was pointing out is that the objection about the courts being overwhelmed was sheer nonsense.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,552
    OK, he can keep his laces....
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    "The family of" sounds a bit vague. Does it mean immediate family or are we talking about second cousins twice removed?

    We already know that Corbyn is surrounded by posh millionaires. Is this news or just gossip?
    The sale of Picasso's L'Enfant aux Pigeon was actually very controversial.

    It was on permanent loan & displayed in the National Gallery from 1974 t0 2010.

    However, the permanent loan turned out not to be permanent when the Aberconway's (a Scottish family who own large tracts of North Wales) wanted more money. It was a greedy and selfish decision to sell it to the Qataris. The NG would have offered money, but could not compete with the Qataris.

    Laura Murray is a direct descendent of the Aberconways through her grandmother Dame Anne Mclaren and grandfather Don Michie (both very distinguished left-wing academics). Laura will have had an EXTREMELY privileged upbringing.

    I think it would be interesting to see if there is anyone middle income, let alone working class, in Corby's entourage.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017
    justin124 said:

    The Tories will be helped significantly in Hendon and Finchley & Golders Green by the Anti-Semitic row.

    I'd say that Luciana Berger standing in Hendon may be TIG's best chance of winning a seat at the next GE.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,526

    Lying isn't democratic.
    " My lies good. Your lies bad. "

    Repeated by every loser after every election.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    I've never understood what's so precious about the UK with the minority nations continually bitching that there are more English in the Union than all of them put together, and the English don't pay them enough.

    Yep, I imagine that is an increasingly pervasive view inside the Conservative party.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507

    Lying isn't democratic.
    It's certainly been a part of most election campaigns in my lifetime. Parties tell half-truths, grossly exaggerate their own virtues and their opponents' vices, and campaign against straw men.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,338
    edited March 2019

    Perhaps because Cameron was "a Fucking Liar" himself ?
    Cameron's self imposed omerta is beginning to look a bit weird. His autobiography has been postponed form last year to some undefined point this year. The new BBC Scotland channel has a documentary on the Indy ref and apparently Cameron is the only major figure who refused to be interviewed on the subject. You'd think he'd at least want to blow his own trumpet about his one (from a Tory Unionist pov) unarguable success.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,852
    Sean_F said:

    It's certainly been a part of most election campaigns in my lifetime. Parties tell half-truths, grossly exaggerate their own virtues and their opponents' vices, and campaign against straw men.
    In most elections, people are campaigning for office, so know they can be held to account in future. In contrast 2016 was a campaign for a revolutionary moment, which Brexiteers thought would create its own new reality and therefore they could lie with impunity.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,092
    Scott_P said:
    Just confirms data post referendum. It might be uncomfortable for Leavers but the stats on education and vote is strongly correlated . That’s not to say some dumb people also voted Remain , but taken as a whole the Leave vote had more dumb people .
  • NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 739
    edited March 2019

    I'm not sure which constituencies have large numbers of young people who are not students - some deprived inner city constituencies perhaps.

    But if you compare the Reading constituencies, as an example, Labour did much better in the student heavy Reading East.
    Good point but there must have been a fair few to justify Curtice’s analysis, one assumes.

    Striking contrast in the Leave vote between Reading East (39%) and West (51%) - influenced by students/young people presumably.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548
    Sean_F said:

    It's certainly been a part of most election campaigns in my lifetime. Parties tell half-truths, grossly exaggerate their own virtues and their opponents' vices, and campaign against straw men.
    How can you tell when a politician is telling you a lie?

    His lips move.

    Victorian joke.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,101
    ydoethur said:

    How can you tell when a politician is telling you a lie?

    His lips move.

    Victorian joke.
    Never been truer than today though.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,548
    Another day, another day the Cult spending raging about the exact class that Jess Philips belongs to:

    https://twitter.com/DeborahJaneOrr/status/1104687519881461761

    (see the thread responses).

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548
    malcolmg said:

    Never been truer than today though.
    Not quite true Malcolm. These days some politicians are women.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180

    No. We need to get the fraudsters out of public life - you know, those who stood for an election under a manifesto saying they would implement Brexit, when they clearly had no intention of doing any such thing. They will all have been remunerated by well in excess of £100k since their election in 2017. Why is that not Misconduct in a Public Office?
    It is an enormous disappointment that more of these hypocrites did not have the courage to join the Tiggers and thus remove themselves from public life.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Chris said:

    For the record - the law is it stands is as much owing to Labour amendments (2003 and 2006) as it is to Tory/Lib Dem ones (2114).

    I really don't understand why anyone would want such decisions to be made by politicians rather than judges.
    There would still be a need for a way to initiate the process.

    IIUI there is a mandatory right of appeal by someone stripped of their citizenship, which amounts in practice to a judicial review of the politician’s decision. The system would be much harder to defend without that automatic right of appeal.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,929
    Jeez, it's a bit grumpy in here today. Cheer up, it might happen/might never happen (delete as applicable for your Brexit/Scottish independence/Corbyn government positions of choice).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548
    edited March 2019
    Sandpit said:

    There would still be a need for a way to initiate the process.

    IIUI there is a mandatory right of appeal by someone stripped of their citizenship, which amounts in practice to a judicial review of the politician’s decision. The system would be much harder to defend without that automatic right of appeal.
    I think one thing people are forgetting is that in this country the Crown is the ultimate arbiter of such things, and the Home Secretary is the representative of the crown in matters relating to domestic law. Therefore the Home Secretary is de facto the senior judge in the land.

    Maybe that isn't the way it should be, but that's the way it is.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,338

    Another day, another day the Cult spending raging about the exact class that Jess Philips belongs to:

    https://twitter.com/DeborahJaneOrr/status/1104687519881461761

    (see the thread responses).

    Still, it's not only the cultists who're saying REALLY dumb shit about Jess.

    https://twitter.com/aijiujoe/status/1104423451228626946
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594

    Another day, another day the Cult spending raging about the exact class that Jess Philips belongs to:

    https://twitter.com/DeborahJaneOrr/status/1104687519881461761

    (see the thread responses).

    This one is good. Been a while since I've seen 'extreme centrism'.
    https://twitter.com/Magnieboy/status/1104695231545556993
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180
    Sandpit said:

    There would still be a need for a way to initiate the process.

    IIUI there is a mandatory right of appeal by someone stripped of their citizenship, which amounts in practice to a judicial review of the politician’s decision. The system would be much harder to defend without that automatic right of appeal.
    I've never been a fan of judicial review. It is a focus on process rather than substance. Provided the right boxes are ticked the decision is unchallengeable. What is needed (and I think in fairness we have here) is a substantive appeal where the merits can be properly examined and challenged.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180
    Sandpit said:

    There would still be a need for a way to initiate the process.

    IIUI there is a mandatory right of appeal by someone stripped of their citizenship, which amounts in practice to a judicial review of the politician’s decision. The system would be much harder to defend without that automatic right of appeal.
    I've never been a fan of judicial review. It is a focus on process rather than substance. Provided the right boxes are ticked the decision is unchallengeable. What is needed (and I think in fairness we have here) is a substantive appeal where the merits can be properly examined and challenged.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548
    kle4 said:

    This one is good. Been a while since I've seen 'extreme centrism'.
    https://twitter.com/Magnieboy/status/1104695231545556993
    That spinning noise is Aristotle turning in his grave.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,526
    NeilVW said:

    Good point but there must have been a fair few to justify Curtice’s analysis, one assumes.

    Striking contrast in the Leave vote between Reading East (39%) and West (51%) - influenced by students/young people presumably.
    Lots of factors in every constituency.

    It should be noted that Canterbury has an especially high number of students:

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/2015guide/canterbury/

    It seems beyond all logic to me that Labour's student fees promises wouldn't have had a significant effect there.

    As election bribes go it was one of the most significant I've ever seen.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,108
    Scott_P said:

    It could be argued that "political decency" cost the Remain campaign when David Cameron refused to allow Boris to be tagged as "a Fucking Liar" every time BoZo appeared in public.

    Of course he did it for narrow party ends, but the result was the same...
    The one thing that Cameron and May have in common is having played things sub optimally in order to hold their party together.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918
    Sandpit said:

    There would still be a need for a way to initiate the process.

    IIUI there is a mandatory right of appeal by someone stripped of their citizenship, which amounts in practice to a judicial review of the politician’s decision. The system would be much harder to defend without that automatic right of appeal.
    Yes, there is a right of appeal. That's something.

    But it's very different from due process being followed in the first place. Particularly if someone dies as a result of the original decision.

    I wonder whether anyone can make an argument for the decision in the first instance being made by a politician rather than a court.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548

    Lots of factors in every constituency.

    It should be noted that Canterbury has an especially high number of students:

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/2015guide/canterbury/

    It seems beyond all logic to me that Labour's student fees promises wouldn't have had a significant effect there.

    As election bribes go it was one of the most significant I've ever seen.

    It's a very small city with two very large universities. Does anyone know whether similar analysis was carried out for Ceredigion which is the nearest parallel I can think of?

    That was though a classic example of what I was discussing upthread with those Corbynistas - they agree something is wrong, but deny any responsibility or need to think when challenged to say, 'well, what should we do instead?' Corbyn and Labour think 'tuition fees = bad.' And do you know what? They're right. But they had no proposals to replace them. Therefore, their statement is meaningless.

    With railways it's easier, as most people agree track and trains should be integrated.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594

    Lots of factors in every constituency.

    It should be noted that Canterbury has an especially high number of students:

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/2015guide/canterbury/

    It seems beyond all logic to me that Labour's student fees promises wouldn't have had a significant effect there.

    As election bribes go it was one of the most significant I've ever seen.
    I expect we shall see it again. Even if called out as not meaning what some are suggesting it means all it does it put focus on 'Labour want to help students, Tories do not'.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited March 2019

    Final salary pensions.
    The Government and Parliament gave PCCs and the Mayor of London the power to increase their police precepts by £24. As the Government isn't willing to fund more police the council taxpayer has to foot the bill - as they have been doing increasingly in recent years.

    Police cost money I am afraid - and yes they do get pensions too.

    Central government has delivered austerity by passing the biggest cuts onto local government including social care and childrens services, policing and fire - i.e. they devolved austerity. And we have all seen the consequences - particularly in terms of crime and the shocking state of the adult social care system.

    It is crazy to cut social care funding by 40% and increase NHS funding - because keeping an elderly person at home is cheaper than keeping them in hospital.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548
    edited March 2019
    brendan16 said:

    The Government and Parliament gave PCCs and the Mayor of London the power to increase their police precepts by £24. As the Government isn't willing to fund more police the council taxpayer has to foot the bill - as they have been doing increasingly in recent years.

    Police cost money I am afraid - and yes they do get pensions too.

    Central government has delivered austerity by passing the biggest cuts onto local government including social care and childrens services, policing and fire - i.e. the devolved austerity. And we have all seen the consequences - particularly in terms of crime and the shocking state of the adult social care system.

    It is crazy to cut social care funding by 40% and increase NHS funding - because keeping an elderly person at home is cheaper than keeping them in hospital.
    Wait until the government fails to fund the huge employer pension contributions rise for teachers. They are going up by the small matter of 43.08% from September 1st. Possibly the same increase again for 2020-21. The government has promised to fund them centrally this year, but if they have made the same promise for 2020 I've missed it.

    A phrase about fans and shit springs to mind.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594
    Chris said:

    Yes, there is a right of appeal. That's something.

    But it's very different from due process being followed in the first place. Particularly if someone dies as a result of the original decision.

    I wonder whether anyone can make an argument for the decision in the first instance being made by a politician rather than a court.
    It is the job of our politicians to keep us safe and to oversee our security apparatus, and removing citizenship is one of the ways intended to keep us safe. Additionally, do we want something as significant as removing citizenship to be undertaken by bureaucrats and the unelected when our elected officials are the guarantors of our rights as citizens and therefore an elected person should ultimately make the call if the ultimate right of citizenship is taken away?

    I'd prefer it not be the Home Secretary or a politician, but I'm sure others can make an even stronger argument than above.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918
    ydoethur said:

    I think one thing people are forgetting is that in this country the Crown is the ultimate arbiter of such things, and the Home Secretary is the representative of the crown in matters relating to domestic law. Therefore the Home Secretary is de facto the senior judge in the land.
    Sorry, but I think whatever powers the Home Secretary has in depriving Britons of their citizenship are specific ones arising from statute law, and if they appeal he has no further jurisdiction.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548
    edited March 2019
    Chris said:

    Sorry, but I think whatever powers the Home Secretary has in depriving Britons of their citizenship are specific ones arising from statute law, and if they appeal he has no further jurisdiction.
    Any decision can be appealed, for example to the Supreme Court (stupid name, btw). I am pointing out that there is no separation of powers as there is in e.g. the US or the EU. (And incidentally I think that is a bad system, but it is the system we have.)
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited March 2019
    nico67 said:

    Just confirms data post referendum. It might be uncomfortable for Leavers but the stats on education and vote is strongly correlated . That’s not to say some dumb people also voted Remain , but taken as a whole the Leave vote had more dumb people .
    Oddly these were the same sorts of arguments used to deny women the vote a century ago - they cannot be trusted to vote as 'they are too impulsive' or 'lack numeracy skills' or whatever. Those arguments were as dumb then as they are now.

    Being good at maths doesn't seem to be a strong point for many MPs. And are we saying people who think on their feet and act quickly don't have value - isn't that useful in a firefighter, an emergency doctor, a soldier etc. They don't have time to spend days writing opinion pieces for the Guardian

    And of course the old argument about having a degree is trotted out - ignoring the fact now that nearly half of young people (who mostly voted remain) have one and less than 10% of over 65s have one (as back then having a degree really meant some).

    My mother never got a degree - no one did in her generation - but she served as a nurse and midwife in the NHS for 25 years. She voted leave (my dad voted remain) - and while maybe she isn't the world's greatest mathematician and occasionally had to take swift action as a midwife during difficult births - but I think she has earned her vote.

    She has certainly added more value to the world than someone who writes opinion pieces in the Guardian for a living.

    So lets stop the sneering please - remain votes by definition aren't 'better people'. They just voted remain - some are wonderful people some aren't and some write for the Guardian!
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918
    kle4 said:

    It is the job of our politicians to keep us safe and to oversee our security apparatus, and removing citizenship is one of the ways intended to keep us safe. Additionally, do we want something as significant as removing citizenship to be undertaken by bureaucrats and the unelected when our elected officials are the guarantors of our rights as citizens and therefore an elected person should ultimately make the call if the ultimate right of citizenship is taken away?

    I'd prefer it not be the Home Secretary or a politician, but I'm sure others can make an even stronger argument than above.
    The choice is between a court and a politician, I think.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507
    ydoethur said:

    How can you tell when a politician is telling you a lie?

    His lips move.

    Victorian joke.
    ydoethur said:

    How can you tell when a politician is telling you a lie?

    His lips move.

    Victorian joke.
    I'd be surprised if there was ever a time when politicians were high-minded, serious, and impartial servants of the people who set aside partisan considerations to do the right thing (perhaps WW2).
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918
    ydoethur said:

    Any decision can be appealed, for example to the Supreme Court (stupid name, btw). I am pointing out that there is no separation of powers as there is in e.g. the US or the EU. (And incidentally I think that is a bad system, but it is the system we have.)
    I was always taught there was a separation of powers, but an imperfect one. No doubt there's no perfect solution, but I think the less involvement politicians have in decisions about the treatment of individuals, rather than general matters of policy, the better.

    I keep thinking there are some things so self-evident that no one will dispute them, but then people dispute them.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited March 2019
    justin124 said:

    It is actually pretty poor compared with what the SDP was recording in similar hypothetical polls back in March/April 1981.The novelty appeal tends to wear off pretty quickly unless reinforced on a regular basis. Doubtless these figures arise from prompted questions in that Comres have included TIG as an option. Why no mention of Brexit Party though? Sounds somewhat inconsistent given that the latter do actually formally exist as a political party.
    That’s a good point about Brexit Party. I guess that most people still associate Farage with UKIP, and if given the option of Farage’s Brexit Party or Tommy Robinson’s UKIP would tend to go for the former.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    " My lies good. Your lies bad. "

    Repeated by every loser after every election.
    This wasn't a party political election. This was a major change to Britain's place in the world. It should have been treated as a serious debate not a knockabout for bad boys or a lever for particular politician's ambitions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548
    Grim news:

    Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-47513508

    And not exactly encouraging on the safety of the 737 Max. Two crashes in a very short operational history (just two years).
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Scott_P said:

    It could be argued that "political decency" cost the Remain campaign when David Cameron refused to allow Boris to be tagged as "a Fucking Liar" every time BoZo appeared in public.

    Of course he did it for narrow party ends, but the result was the same...
    This is why any second referendum is doomed. The politicians who lost by fighting a purely negative campaign have perversely concluded they were not negative enough.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,733
    For F1 aficionados, a decent article on the estimable Robert Kubica:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/mar/10/robert-kubica-f1-return-williams-nothing-giving-up
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    justin124 said:

    Almost certainly too late for an April election now given that an election would have to be announced by next Wednesday for Polling Day to be 18th April. Unlikely that 25th April would be chosen as Local Elections are already scheduled for 2nd May.
    You’re probably right there, but I wouldn’t rule out a 2nd May election just yet. Some big decisions are happening this week, and it’s not inconceivable that the government has no majority by Friday.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507
    Chris said:

    I was always taught there was a separation of powers, but an imperfect one. No doubt there's no perfect solution, but I think the less involvement politicians have in decisions about the treatment of individuals, rather than general matters of policy, the better.

    I keep thinking there are some things so self-evident that no one will dispute them, but then people dispute them.
    Ministers often have to act on the basis of intelligence they receive, in order to refuse someone permission to enter the country, or to deport them, and I think it's important to have that discretion (subject to appeal).
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    ydoethur said:

    Grim news:

    Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-47513508

    And not exactly encouraging on the safety of the 737 Max. Two crashes in a very short operational history (just two years).

    Even poor safety and maintenance can’t be to blame for a two year old aircraft failing.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,371
    ydoethur said:

    Grim news:

    Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-47513508

    And not exactly encouraging on the safety of the 737 Max. Two crashes in a very short operational history (just two years).

    And from first sight (and therefore probably wrong), it looks like in a similar flight regime.

    The LionAir crash near the end of last year was at least partially due to the fact Boeing had changed the way the plane flies in certain circumstances without informing pilots - rather a vital thing.

    I daresay there's some squeaky bums in Seattle today ...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548
    notme2 said:

    Even poor safety and maintenance can’t be to blame for a two year old aircraft failing.
    I think it's five months, not two years.

    This is starting to look distinctly strange, and disturbing.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-10/ethiopian-airlines-flight-to-nairobi-crashes-after-takeoff
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,733
    ydoethur said:

    How can you tell when a politician is telling you a lie?

    His lips move.

    Victorian joke.
    The sentiment predates British democracy - ‘this vile politician, Bolingbroke’... and no doubt the ancient Greeks expressed similar sentiments.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,552
    notme2 said:

    Even poor safety and maintenance can’t be to blame for a two year old aircraft failing.
    Especially worrying as there had been so few deaths in air crashes recently.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited March 2019
    Sandpit said:

    That’s a good point about Brexit Party. I guess that most people still associate Farage with UKIP, and if given the option of Farage’s Brexit Party or Tommy Robinson’s UKIP would tend to go for the former.
    The SDP was of course boosted by various by elections - which increased their profile and made them appear electable as they were winning everywhere from Croydon to Glasgow to Merseyside. I doubt the Tiggers will get that chance - as I doubt they could mount a serious challenge on that scale.

    As for UKIP there are so many offshoots now as well as Batten's UKIP. If we do end up having to elect MEPs is time allocated and election broadcast allocations based on the 2014 European results or the last general election? Does Farage's party really have any capacity to run a national list in barely two months time.

    And of course many of the most pro Brexit areas have the smallest MEP allocations - the North east only has 4 seats (i.e. you potentially need 25% of the local vote to get one MEP) and the east midlands 6 whereas London has ten and the south east has 11 (i.e. potentially less than 10% is sufficient). Its much harder to win seats in the former than the latter if the vote is split - its that quirk that resulted in the Lib Dems getting their sole MEP last time (in the largest south east region) and UKIP getting Gerald Batten elected in London.

    Farage could as a result end up being a group of one - elected in the south east region!
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    Cameron's self imposed omerta is beginning to look a bit weird. His autobiography has been postponed form last year to some undefined point this year. The new BBC Scotland channel has a documentary on the Indy ref and apparently Cameron is the only major figure who refused to be interviewed on the subject. You'd think he'd at least want to blow his own trumpet about his one (from a Tory Unionist pov) unarguable success.
    I doubt we will ever see Cameron's autobiography in print. His decision to hold the referendum look s more and more disastrous and we now know that many of his closest colleagues advised against it. He will find it impossible to advance any kind of justification and without that the book would be pointless, Hamlet without the Prince or Othelloe without the Moor.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    This is why any second referendum is doomed. The politicians who lost by fighting a purely negative campaign have perversely concluded they were not negative enough.
    The problem is that leaving hasn't been treated as a serious political project by either side. The referendum should not have been called in the first place before a plan was in place for either outcome. That error could have been corrected by responding to the result by working out a plan before any action was taken. As it is we have blundered into it. If you were serious about leaving you would be arguing to postpone it and do it properly. You do come across leave supporting individuals online who agree. But the elected leavers seem oblivious to practicalities.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,552
    Inevitably for the story, Jack Grealish scores....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548

    And from first sight (and therefore probably wrong), it looks like in a similar flight regime.

    The LionAir crash near the end of last year was at least partially due to the fact Boeing had changed the way the plane flies in certain circumstances without informing pilots - rather a vital thing.

    I daresay there's some squeaky bums in Seattle today ...
    So far they're being very guarded in what they say:

    https://www.boeing.com

    Between the lines, I'd say they're pretty worried and so they should be.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918
    Sean_F said:

    Ministers often have to act on the basis of intelligence they receive, in order to refuse someone permission to enter the country, or to deport them, and I think it's important to have that discretion (subject to appeal).
    Why ministers and not courts?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594

    This is why any second referendum is doomed. The politicians who lost by fighting a purely negative campaign have perversely concluded they were not negative enough.
    Except the problem is that the most likely option to be up against remain will have been subjected to intense negative bombardment for 6+months from the very people who would then be needed to argue that it must be supported. And very few will argue positively for the deal, with most at best arguing it is all that can be managed.

    So it is negative against negative. And with one of the negative sides more fired up and the other not supported by all who supported it last time.
  • ydoethur said:

    I think it's five months, not two years.

    This is starting to look distinctly strange, and disturbing.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-10/ethiopian-airlines-flight-to-nairobi-crashes-after-takeoff
    Has this type of Aircraft just entered general use, or has it had several years of accident-free flying. Obviously (using the Poisson distribution) we can get two accidents randomly in a relatively short space of time - that is co-incidence. However a couple of other thoughts.

    The fact that a certain type of plane crashes almost always means that there is an increased probability that a second one will crash. The question is: why? It could be a design defect, it could be that a couple of technicians on the ground are being taught incorrect procedures by the same instructor.
This discussion has been closed.