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Ok but don't tell my wife... I struggle to get her to go away on holiday at all as she hates flying. If she came to the view that cruising was desperate un-green that would be it.tyson said:
My conscience couldn't cope with a cruise.....human beings are trashing the planet, and cruises represent some of our worst excesses/ perhaps marginally superior (just) to trophy hunting wonderful animalsNickPalmer said:
Yes, been in exactly the same position with a mega-enthusiast cruiser. no good alternative to simply relaxing and acclimatising to bridge and dance classes, lengthy afternoon tea, and idle chatter. But I'd think she'll let you sneak off to see if we've left the EU or not!Benpointer said:
I know, I know.Floater said:
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
But: a) they cost a lot and: b) Mrs. P thinks the best thing about a cruise is 'we get way from it all'. Which means any covert interent access is frowned upon with as much severity as if I were openly browsing porn sites all day. So I'll have to abstain.
Just wondering whether much will happen in those 12 days?0 -
Not got a problem with personally.williamglenn said:
The referendum mandate would be delivered if the UK ceased to be a member of the EU. A united Ireland would do the trick, and then Great Britain can decide what to do next.Richard_Tyndall said:
Any way that means we actually leave would be legitimate. Any of the forms of leave on offer are legitimate even if some are rather daft.IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
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All delusion. And the only referendum there is ever going to be is deal v Remain.theProle said:
This is nonsense on stilts. The EU has only got where it's got in this negotiation because our political classes didn't want to leave. A decent negotiator would have wiped the floor with them over the Irish border along the lines of "we won't follow your rules unless we happen to want to and we won't put in place any hard border with our friends in the Republic of Ireland. What are you planning on doing - build a wall and get the Mexicans to pay for it?"williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
This approach would have made Northern Ireland an immense problem for the EU, and no problem for us - which we could have then used as negotiating leverage (e.g. we could have then extracted concessions for alignment on Irish agricultural stuff say in return for single market access on services).
Similarly, when the EU started spouting off about "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" we should have told them "No deal it is" and forced them to make mini-deals sector by sector (and we can see from their no deal planning that they would have gone down this road). With a couple of years in hand to make arrangements we would have had nothing to fear from no deal.
Even in the current mess, the situation is salvageable - "No backstop or no deal". The EU would fold - the ramifications of no deal on the RoI exceed any problems we would have by such an order of magnitude they have no choice. Instead, out MPs have essentially said "No backstop or remain" and then seem surprised that the EU is reluctant to ditch the backstop.
Ultimately a negotiation between two sets of parties that both want the same outcome is always going to arrive at that outcome - and as usual our political classes have demonstrated their contempt for us the people by ignoring our clear instructions to them, as obviously nanny knows best.
I'm rather looking forward to a second referendum, provided its not a stitch up between BINO and Remain - campaigning on a slogan of "Tell them again - but louder" is almost certainly going to win.0 -
We can thank judicial activism for the Government’s inability to deport begging gangs, rather than any intent on their part:Dadge said:
The UK govt chose burgundy passports. It's a good example of something the UK govt did that the EU has been blamed for. (A more recent example, of course, is the backstop. A very important example has been the UK govt's decision not to register EU migrants and allowing the unproductive ones to stay here, even though we have the right to send them home.) This misallocation of blame hasn't been accidental - the EU has been a handy bogeyman for UK govts ever since we joined.Casino_Royale said:
So they say, now.Benpointer said:
We could have blue passports within the EU anyway. Just saying.Casino_Royale said:IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/homeless-eu-citizens-deporting-illegal-policy-home-office-high-court-ruling-brexit-stop-a8110001.html0 -
Ben..thanks for responding to my incendiary post so humanely and politely.....you've just made me feel much more serene without any kind of confrontation...Benpointer said:
Ok but don't tell my wife... I struggle to get her to go away on holiday at all as she hates flying. If she came to the view that cruising was desperate un-green that would be it.tyson said:
My conscience couldn't cope with a cruise.....human beings are trashing the planet, and cruises represent some of our worst excesses/ perhaps marginally superior (just) to trophy hunting wonderful animalsNickPalmer said:
Yes, been in exactly the same position with a mega-enthusiast cruiser. no good alternative to simply relaxing and acclimatising to bridge and dance classes, lengthy afternoon tea, and idle chatter. But I'd think she'll let you sneak off to see if we've left the EU or not!Benpointer said:
I know, I know.Floater said:
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
But: a) they cost a lot and: b) Mrs. P thinks the best thing about a cruise is 'we get way from it all'. Which means any covert interent access is frowned upon with as much severity as if I were openly browsing porn sites all day. So I'll have to abstain.
Just wondering whether much will happen in those 12 days?
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Wikipedia[1] says March 29 2019 date as the formal OSD (out of service date), but this[2] says March 31st. Could be wrong. I thought the co-incidence of Tonka retirement and Brexit date was too poignant not to mention.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"The planned final flight of an RAF Tornado is 14 March 2019 during the disbandment parade of No. IX (B) Squadron and No. 31 Squadron.[260]"viewcode said:
The sixties were fifty years ago. So your point was pointless.Sunil_Prasannan said:
All withdrawn from service...viewcode said:
...when we were laying down the logistics for pan-European cooperation by building Concorde, the Jaguar and Tornado....williamglenn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
However, interestingly Tornado is still in service, although only just. Have a guess on which day it is due to go out of service. (It's a coincidence, but a poignant one).
It wasn't a bad little aircraft. Never glamorous, but it was sturdy and could deliver bangy things from point A to point B with some reliability. It had a propensity to fly into sand dunes during gulf war 1, but it was good enough and in a field where quite a few things are not even that, that's a thing. It was far easier to maintain than the Lightning (the old one, not the new US one) as you could drop the engines straight out, the pilots loved it, it was a truck. The ground attack version was good, the air defence variant was (after a shit-ton of money was thrown at it) eventually good. It'll be missed.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_Kingdom_military_aircraft
[2] http://www.airheadjourno.com/the-royal-air-force-and-the-panavia-tornado-going-out-fighting/0 -
e.g.Foxy said:
Yes, the Corbynites are sounding a bit scared of Jess. Go girl! challenge for leader...Benpointer said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
What has that got to do with anything. Absurd remarks by MattWainrottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.
Precisely. Well said.
This is completely unrelated to Jess being my greenest Labour leader position
https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/11044182252767682560 -
I'm feeling pretty mellow pal.tyson said:
Ben..thanks for responding to my incendiary post so humanely and politely.....you've just made me feel much more serene without any kind of confrontation...Benpointer said:
Ok but don't tell my wife... I struggle to get her to go away on holiday at all as she hates flying. If she came to the view that cruising was desperate un-green that would be it.tyson said:
My conscience couldn't cope with a cruise.....human beings are trashing the planet, and cruises represent some of our worst excesses/ perhaps marginally superior (just) to trophy hunting wonderful animalsNickPalmer said:
Yes, been in exactly the same position with a mega-enthusiast cruiser. no good alternative to simply relaxing and acclimatising to bridge and dance classes, lengthy afternoon tea, and idle chatter. But I'd think she'll let you sneak off to see if we've left the EU or not!Benpointer said:
I know, I know.Floater said:
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
But: a) they cost a lot and: b) Mrs. P thinks the best thing about a cruise is 'we get way from it all'. Which means any covert interent access is frowned upon with as much severity as if I were openly browsing porn sites all day. So I'll have to abstain.
Just wondering whether much will happen in those 12 days?
My brother-in-law just died at 56 a few weeks after being diagnosed with liver cancer - he was right as rain 3 months ago. I know it's the sort of shit that happens to everyone from time to time but when it happens to someone you know and are close to it puts things into perspective.
PS. And credit to you for your response - you're probably right about the ecological impact of cruises but we try to be as green as possible in other ways. :simile:0 -
Less chance of becoming leader than Liz 4% KendallFoxy said:
Yes, the Corbynites are sounding a bit scared of Jess. Go girl! challenge for leader...Benpointer said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
What has that got to do with anything. Absurd remarks by MattWainrottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.
Precisely. Well said.
This is completely unrelated to Jess being my greenest Labour leader position0 -
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.0 -
Less of your negativity, we hold all the cards.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.0 -
Absolutely delusional. Threatening no deal at this late stage is essentially threatening to blow our own kneecaps off while confidently predicting that they will back down because they don’t want to be splattered with the blood. It may have been possible with some years’ prep, about five at an educated guess, but now they will just shrug.theProle said:
This is nonsense on stilts. The EU has only got where it's got in this negotiation because our political classes didn't want to leave. A decent negotiator would have wiped the floor with them over the Irish border along the lines of "we won't follow your rules unless we happen to want to and we won't put in place any hard border with our friends in the Republic of Ireland. What are you planning on doing - build a wall and get the Mexicans to pay for it?"williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century.
This approach would have made Northern Ireland an immense problem for the EU, and no problem for us - which we could have then used as negotiating leverage (e.g. we could have then extracted concessions for alignment on Irish agricultural stuff say in return for single market access on services).
Similarly, when the EU started spouting off about "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" we should have told them "No deal it is" and forced them to make mini-deals sector by sector (and we can see from their no deal planning that they would have gone down this road). With a couple of years in hand to make arrangements we would have had nothing to fear from no deal.
Even in the current mess, the situation is salvageable - "No backstop or no deal". The EU would fold - the ramifications of no deal on the RoI exceed any problems we would have by such an order of magnitude they have no choice. Instead, out MPs have essentially said "No backstop or remain" and then seem surprised that the EU is reluctant to ditch the backstop.
Ultimately a negotiation between two sets of parties that both want the same outcome is always going to arrive at that outcome - and as usual our political classes have demonstrated their contempt for us the people by ignoring our clear instructions to them, as obviously nanny knows best.
I'm rather looking forward to a second referendum, provided its not a stitch up between BINO and Remain - campaigning on a slogan of "Tell them again - but louder" is almost certainly going to win.
I have seen too many people say one side or another is “almost certainly” going to win in the last five years to lend any of it any credence.0 -
Actually May's Deal IS good.TheScreamingEagles said:
Less of your negativity, we hold all the cards.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.
Which makes the ERG's behaviour even more ironic.0 -
The problem is that very few people actually want that, and in any case, the EU is not a sovereign state so is not Europe's USA. Dealing with it as a non member will repeatedly confound us.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.
The predominant wish of most British Eurosceptics is a Europe without supranationalism, or at least without any of its post-Maastricht development.0 -
I really hope that the notion that if someone reacts strongly or attacks another that it means they must be scared of them somehow is knocked on its head. It can be true, but its often taken in itself as proof of being scared, which is nonsense.Foxy said:
Yes, the Corbynites are sounding a bit scared of Jess. Go girl! challenge for leader...Benpointer said:
Precisely. Well said.Big_G_NorthWales said:
What has that got to do with anything. Absurd remarks by MattWainrottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.
As for Phillips, some things she says I like, some I don't, but she has a solid approach, strong brand, and is certainly not just one of the faceless automatons that make up much of our political class, which is appreciated.0 -
I quoted the Tornado article you listed above. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornadoviewcode said:
Wikipedia[1] says March 29 2019 date as the formal OSD (out of service date), but this[2] says March 31st. Could be wrong. I thought the co-incidence of Tonka retirement and Brexit date was too poignant not to mention.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"The planned final flight of an RAF Tornado is 14 March 2019 during the disbandment parade of No. IX (B) Squadron and No. 31 Squadron.[260]"viewcode said:
The sixties were fifty years ago. So your point was pointless.Sunil_Prasannan said:
All withdrawn from service...viewcode said:
...when we were laying down the logistics for pan-European cooperation by building Concorde, the Jaguar and Tornado....williamglenn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
However, interestingly Tornado is still in service, although only just. Have a guess on which day it is due to go out of service. (It's a coincidence, but a poignant one).
It wasn't a bad little aircraft. Never glamorous, but it was sturdy and could deliver bangy things from point A to point B with some reliability. It had a propensity to fly into sand dunes during gulf war 1, but it was good enough and in a field where quite a few things are not even that, that's a thing. It was far easier to maintain than the Lightning (the old one, not the new US one) as you could drop the engines straight out, the pilots loved it, it was a truck. The ground attack version was good, the air defence variant was (after a shit-ton of money was thrown at it) eventually good. It'll be missed.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_Kingdom_military_aircraft
[2] http://www.airheadjourno.com/the-royal-air-force-and-the-panavia-tornado-going-out-fighting/
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Back in 2016 I said some people backed Leave because they didn't really believe in it but backed it because they thought it would be good for their political ambitions.another_richard said:
Actually May's Deal IS good.TheScreamingEagles said:
Less of your negativity, we hold all the cards.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.
Which makes the ERG's behaviour even more ironic.
I just didn't realise just how many Tory MPs that covered.0 -
Jeez. It's becoming some kind of weird Hitler apologist cult now.Scrapheap_as_was said:0 -
I'm feeling pretty negative too.... but for other reasons.TheScreamingEagles said:
Less of your negativity, we hold all the cards.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.0 -
"Hitler. I've seen worse"?Scrapheap_as_was said:
Interestingly, the only two remotely possible other contenders are both communists.0 -
You're going to win the Champions League this season.Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm feeling pretty negative too.... but for other reasons.TheScreamingEagles said:
Less of your negativity, we hold all the cards.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.
Plus Manchester United are going to make Liverpool fan Ole their manager and Madrid are going for Jose Mourinho so Poch is staying.0 -
I don't doubt the UK has hid behind the EU for some decisions it wanted to take that it knew would be unpopular.Dadge said:
The UK govt chose burgundy passports. It's a good example of something the UK govt did that the EU has been blamed for. (A more recent example, of course, is the backstop. A very important example has been the UK govt's decision not to register EU migrants and allowing the unproductive ones to stay here, even though we have the right to send them home.) This misallocation of blame hasn't been accidental - the EU has been a handy bogeyman for UK govts ever since we joined.Casino_Royale said:
So they say, now.Benpointer said:
We could have blue passports within the EU anyway. Just saying.Casino_Royale said:IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.0 -
https://twitter.com/GOsborneGenius/status/1104433914351968256rottenborough said:
"Hitler. I've seen worse"?Scrapheap_as_was said:
Interestingly, the only two remotely possible other contenders are both communists.0 -
You have no idea what people who voted Leave think or want, and you never will.williamglenn said:
The problem is that very few people actually want that, and in any case, the EU is not a sovereign state so is not Europe's USA. Dealing with it as a non member will repeatedly confound us.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.
The predominant wish of most British Eurosceptics is a Europe without supranationalism, or at least without any of its post-Maastricht development.
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Thanks for that....TheScreamingEagles said:
You're going to win the Champions League this season.Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm feeling pretty negative too.... but for other reasons.TheScreamingEagles said:
Less of your negativity, we hold all the cards.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.
Plus Manchester United are going to make Liverpool fan Ole their manager and Madrid are going for Jose Mourinho so Poch is staying. 0 -
Thanks! Intermittently.JosiasJessop said:
A friend of mine (~30 yo), her hubbie, and their 3-yo son go on a cruise once a year, as she cannot abide flying. I can't remember which company they go with, but she absolutely loves it - and so does their son.Casino_Royale said:I've heard too many bad stories about cruises to want to go on one.
Where do you go, and what do you book, if you want to avoid obese Britons and Germans with no table manners, dignity or dress sense?
Perhaps it depends on the company you go with (and hence the ship)?
BTW, hope your wife and daughter are well, and that you're getting some sleep!0 -
I've bet on it as well.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Thanks for that....TheScreamingEagles said:
You're going to win the Champions League this season.Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm feeling pretty negative too.... but for other reasons.TheScreamingEagles said:
Less of your negativity, we hold all the cards.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.
Plus Manchester United are going to make Liverpool fan Ole their manager and Madrid are going for Jose Mourinho so Poch is staying.0 -
Yes, I know. But can you change back once you've switched?Foxy said:
Croatia have blue passports.Casino_Royale said:
So they say, now.Benpointer said:
We could have blue passports within the EU anyway. Just saying.Casino_Royale said:IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.0 -
Tone deaf.williamglenn said:
If all it costs is "a bit of pride", why not suck up the symbols? If we're going to be in the EU, it doesn't help to pretend we're not really part of it. Surely that's one of the lessons the UK should learn from this whole episode.Casino_Royale said:
It means ceasing placing its flag on numberplates, passports, driving licences, funding plaques, and twinnings that contribute to a creeping sense of federalisation in this country.williamglenn said:
I should have given a longer response but your solution listed a large number of 'concessions' from the EU, but nothing about what the UK will do to make its membership work better. What does "toning down the use of its flag" mean? You almost never see it in this country. It's not displayed on public buildings in the same way it is in most other member states.Casino_Royale said:
You're a fundamentalist zealot, not a politician.williamglenn said:
Proving that the UK has learnt nothing...Casino_Royale said:
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.
Symbols matter. And it costs the EU nothing, apart from a bit of pride.
The concessions, such as they are, are simply recognising the UK is different, as it always has been. I've laid out two options there: one a Remain I think many Leavers could live with, and the other a Leave many Remainers could live with.
Anything else is politically unsustainable.0 -
Very true - she is far too sensible to appeal to the cultistsbigjohnowls said:
Less chance of becoming leader than Liz 4% KendallFoxy said:
Yes, the Corbynites are sounding a bit scared of Jess. Go girl! challenge for leader...Benpointer said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
What has that got to do with anything. Absurd remarks by MattWainrottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.
Precisely. Well said.
This is completely unrelated to Jess being my greenest Labour leader position0 -
Got it in one.williamglenn said:
The predominant wish of most British Eurosceptics is a Europe without supranationalism, or at least without any of its post-Maastricht development.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.0 -
We have been on 10 cruises worldwide and have never come across obese Brits and virtually no Germans. Our European and Scandanavian cruises have had many US and Canadians on board as well as Aussies and well behaved Brits. Our cruises out of Canada and to the Antartic had much the same compliment and we have not seen one example of poor behaviour on board all these shipsCasino_Royale said:I've heard too many bad stories about cruises to want to go on one.
Where do you go, and what do you book, if you want to avoid obese Britons and Germans with no table manners, dignity or dress sense?0 -
Y
The European Rugby ChampionshipEndillion said:
Promoted from what, exactly?_Anazina_ said:
If they finish last, let them be relegated. If they are good enough they will be immediately promoted the following season.another_richard said:
There's a lot of truth there but it wasn't too long ago that Scotland finished last and France have done so once as well._Anazina_ said:Dixie
The Six Nations should have incorporated relegation and promotions several seasons ago. Georgia are far superior to Italy and have won the European Rugby Championship in seven out of the last eight seasons. They have nowhere to go. How are they supposed to develop?
The blazers insist on keeping the 6N a closed shop presumably because the fans enjoy an annual trip to Rome.
The set up is anti competitive - the antithesis of sport - it is embarrassing.
Having Italy relegated might be acceptable the blazers but they wouldn't want to risk that happening to any of the other nations.0 -
Rather ironically / annoyingly there's a good chance the ERG will end up controlling the Conservative party if Brexit doesn't happen.TheScreamingEagles said:
Back in 2016 I said some people backed Leave because they didn't really believe in it but backed it because they thought it would be good for their political ambitions.another_richard said:
Actually May's Deal IS good.TheScreamingEagles said:
Less of your negativity, we hold all the cards.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.
Which makes the ERG's behaviour even more ironic.
I just didn't realise just how many Tory MPs that covered.
What do you make of Andrea Jenkyns attitude ?
I don't know if she's a death cult fanatic or the most idiotic of useful idiots.0 -
Typo in your post there.another_richard said:
Actually May's Deal IS good.TheScreamingEagles said:
Less of your negativity, we hold all the cards.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.
Which makes the ERG's behaviour even more ironic.
The "i" should be "mo".0 -
Yes, my wife and two of our children enjoyed a Nile cruise about the same time.Foxy said:
I cruised the Nile 20 years ago, a supurb trip. I expected the history and archeology to be amazing, and they were, but Egypt is a surprisingly beautiful country scenically, and the country life a daily panorama. Also much safer and less hassle than the roads.JosiasJessop said:
A friend of mine (~30 yo), her hubbie, and their 3-yo son go on a cruise once a year, as she cannot abide flying. I can't remember which company they go with, but she absolutely loves it - and so does their son.Casino_Royale said:I've heard too many bad stories about cruises to want to go on one.
Where do you go, and what do you book, if you want to avoid obese Britons and Germans with no table manners, dignity or dress sense?
Perhaps it depends on the company you go with (and hence the ship)?
BTW, hope your wife and daughter are well, and that you're getting some sleep!
My parents have never fancied blue water cruising, but have loved river cruising, and have covered most of the rivers in Europe. Found the Rhone a bit dull but enjoyed the others as far as the Volga.0 -
-
Andrea's a very good constituency MP, which is one reason why she increased her majority at the last election against a popular local Labour candidate.another_richard said:
Rather ironically / annoyingly there's a good chance the ERG will end up controlling the Conservative party if Brexit doesn't happen.TheScreamingEagles said:
Back in 2016 I said some people backed Leave because they didn't really believe in it but backed it because they thought it would be good for their political ambitions.another_richard said:
Actually May's Deal IS good.TheScreamingEagles said:
Less of your negativity, we hold all the cards.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.
Which makes the ERG's behaviour even more ironic.
I just didn't realise just how many Tory MPs that covered.
What do you make of Andrea Jenkyns attitude ?
I don't know if she's a death cult fanatic or the most idiotic of useful idiots.0 -
Death cult fanatic. David Herdson will attest in 2015 that she was a genuine Cameroon, if slightly shy.another_richard said:
Rather ironically / annoyingly there's a good chance the ERG will end up controlling the Conservative party if Brexit doesn't happen.
What do you make of Andrea Jenkyns attitude ?
I don't know if she's a death cult fanatic or the most idiotic of useful idiots.
I don't know why the EU turns so many normal people into idiots.
Is why I'm in favour of No Deal (as opposed to revocation), it'll destroy the credibility of so many Leavers.
All those like Jenkyns who said we will prosper under WTO/No Deal will lose all credibility.0 -
Casino_Royale said:
Got it in one.williamglenn said:The predominant wish of most British Eurosceptics is a Europe without supranationalism, or at least without any of its post-Maastricht development.
Hmm...RoyalBlue said:
You have no idea what people who voted Leave think or want, and you never will.williamglenn said:The problem is that very few people actually want that, and in any case, the EU is not a sovereign state so is not Europe's USA. Dealing with it as a non member will repeatedly confound us.
The predominant wish of most British Eurosceptics is a Europe without supranationalism, or at least without any of its post-Maastricht development.0 -
The UK has got a bit to do to to match Canada on immigrants as a percentage of total population (non EU of course), but we're definitely catching up.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.0 -
Any particular lines that you would recommend?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes, my wife and two of our children enjoyed a Nile cruise about the same time.Foxy said:
I cruised the Nile 20 years ago, a supurb trip. I expected the history and archeology to be amazing, and they were, but Egypt is a surprisingly beautiful country scenically, and the country life a daily panorama. Also much safer and less hassle than the roads.JosiasJessop said:
A friend of mine (~30 yo), her hubbie, and their 3-yo son go on a cruise once a year, as she cannot abide flying. I can't remember which company they go with, but she absolutely loves it - and so does their son.Casino_Royale said:I've heard too many bad stories about cruises to want to go on one.
Where do you go, and what do you book, if you want to avoid obese Britons and Germans with no table manners, dignity or dress sense?
Perhaps it depends on the company you go with (and hence the ship)?
BTW, hope your wife and daughter are well, and that you're getting some sleep!
My parents have never fancied blue water cruising, but have loved river cruising, and have covered most of the rivers in Europe. Found the Rhone a bit dull but enjoyed the others as far as the Volga.
Holidaying is always a matter of personal taste, but some of the bigger cruise ships that I see sailing past the Isle of Wight look pretty hideous.0 -
I’m afraid I must agree with William Glenn here. It is not reasonable to ask the EU to alter its founding principles to accommodate a single member state that joined of its own free will. It’s for us to decide if those principles are so undesirable that we must leave, and we have done so.Casino_Royale said:
Tone deaf.williamglenn said:
If all it costs is "a bit of pride", why not suck up the symbols? If we're going to be in the EU, it doesn't help to pretend we're not really part of it. Surely that's one of the lessons the UK should learn from this whole episode.Casino_Royale said:
It means ceasing placing its flag on numberplates, passports, driving licences, funding plaques, and twinnings that contribute to a creeping sense of federalisation in this country.williamglenn said:
I should have given a longer response but your solution listed a large number of 'concessions' from the EU, but nothing about what the UK will do to make its membership work better. What does "toning down the use of its flag" mean? You almost never see it in this country. It's not displayed on public buildings in the same way it is in most other member states.Casino_Royale said:
You're a fundamentalist zealot, not a politician.williamglenn said:
Proving that the UK has learnt nothing...Casino_Royale said:
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.
Symbols matter. And it costs the EU nothing, apart from a bit of pride.
The concessions, such as they are, are simply recognising the UK is different, as it always has been. I've laid out two options there: one a Remain I think many Leavers could live with, and the other a Leave many Remainers could live with.
Anything else is politically unsustainable.
I think this kind of exceptionalist thinking is much more common amongst Tories, whether Remain or Leave, than the Leave vote in general.0 -
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:0 -
If only Scotland were more appealing, we’d get there!Theuniondivvie said:
The UK has got a bit to do to to match Canada on immigrants as a percentage of total population (non EU of course), but we're definitely catching up.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.0 -
Very quiet from the cult this evening on the Murray item.0
-
Pretty much what I said yesterday.Scott_P said:0 -
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.0 -
Then you will be in a rare position - a remainer who will be annoyed that we will probably be remaining.TheScreamingEagles said:
Is why I'm in favour of No Deal (as opposed to revocation), it'll destroy the credibility of so many Leavers.another_richard said:
Rather ironically / annoyingly there's a good chance the ERG will end up controlling the Conservative party if Brexit doesn't happen.
What do you make of Andrea Jenkyns attitude ?
I don't know if she's a death cult fanatic or the most idiotic of useful idiots.0 -
Yep, long term residents who contribute substantially to their communities getting booted out by Westminster diktat must be pretty unappealing.RoyalBlue said:
If only Scotland were more appealing, we’d get there!Theuniondivvie said:
The UK has got a bit to do to to match Canada on immigrants as a percentage of total population (non EU of course), but we're definitely catching up.RoyalBlue said:
This should have been clear to everyone from the start. Brexit is a choice to abandon influence overseas for more power at home. It is the same choice any independence movement makes.williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
We will be Europe’s Canada. There is no disgrace in that, and few Canadians wish to be absorbed into their southern neighbour.0 -
The deal is not going through this week. Ayes will be south of 250 IMO.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.0 -
The experience is wonderful - you pay a lot to get indulged and pampered and if you're sensible you turn the world off for a couple of weeks and enjoy good food, sunshine and just relax. Royal Carribean and Celebrity are pretty good. You don't see the outside of the boat when on boardFoxy said:
Any particular lines that you would recommend?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes, my wife and two of our children enjoyed a Nile cruise about the same time.Foxy said:
I cruised the Nile 20 years ago, a supurb trip. I expected the history and archeology to be amazing, and they were, but Egypt is a surprisingly beautiful country scenically, and the country life a daily panorama. Also much safer and less hassle than the roads.JosiasJessop said:
A friend of mine (~30 yo), her hubbie, and their 3-yo son go on a cruise once a year, as she cannot abide flying. I can't remember which company they go with, but she absolutely loves it - and so does their son.Casino_Royale said:I've heard too many bad stories about cruises to want to go on one.
Where do you go, and what do you book, if you want to avoid obese Britons and Germans with no table manners, dignity or dress sense?
Perhaps it depends on the company you go with (and hence the ship)?
BTW, hope your wife and daughter are well, and that you're getting some sleep!
My parents have never fancied blue water cruising, but have loved river cruising, and have covered most of the rivers in Europe. Found the Rhone a bit dull but enjoyed the others as far as the Volga.
Holidaying is always a matter of personal taste, but some of the bigger cruise ships that I see sailing past the Isle of Wight look pretty hideous. 0 -
If this is what transpires, there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that the Conservatives will win the next election. The party will spend the next 3 years at war with itself.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
Thanks to the stupidity of the ERGers, it now feels distinctly possible. I still think there’s a chance the deal gets through in June, after a 3 month extension.0 -
That view has been expressed many times on here, notably by Antifrankkle4 said:Then you will be in a rare position - a remainer who will be annoyed that we will probably be remaining.
The only way to burn out the fever of Brexit is to experience the full fat version. In all other scenarios the headbangers will continue their crusade.0 -
We have done most of our cruises with Princess sailing ex Southampton, Rome, and Vancouver. Our early cruising was with Fred Olsen on smaller ships with formal dining but the larger Princess ships offer many more dining options, and while they carry 3000 + passengers + 2000 crewe, you never seem to meet the same fellow passengersFoxy said:
Any particular lines that you would recommend?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes, my wife and two of our children enjoyed a Nile cruise about the same time.Foxy said:
I cruised the Nile 20 years ago, a supurb trip. I expected the history and archeology to be amazing, and they were, but Egypt is a surprisingly beautiful country scenically, and the country life a daily panorama. Also much safer and less hassle than the roads.JosiasJessop said:
A friend of mine (~30 yo), her hubbie, and their 3-yo son go on a cruise once a year, as she cannot abide flying. I can't remember which company they go with, but she absolutely loves it - and so does their son.Casino_Royale said:I've heard too many bad stories about cruises to want to go on one.
Where do you go, and what do you book, if you want to avoid obese Britons and Germans with no table manners, dignity or dress sense?
Perhaps it depends on the company you go with (and hence the ship)?
BTW, hope your wife and daughter are well, and that you're getting some sleep!
My parents have never fancied blue water cruising, but have loved river cruising, and have covered most of the rivers in Europe. Found the Rhone a bit dull but enjoyed the others as far as the Volga.
Holidaying is always a matter of personal taste, but some of the bigger cruise ships that I see sailing past the Isle of Wight look pretty hideous.
Furthermore they all have stablisers and seem to endure less movement than the smaller ships, not that it bothers us having been in hurricane seas in the mid atlantic and of course in antartica
The good thing about a Southampton cruise is you have no baggage limits and while there is security it is nothing as hideous as flying0 -
Are there any markets up on this week's vote?AlastairMeeks said:
The deal is not going through this week. Ayes will be south of 250 IMO.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.0 -
If the deadline is moved, the dynamic changes in multiple ways. The deal can lose as well as gain supporters. Other ways of breaking the deadlock look more attractive to some.RoyalBlue said:
If this is what transpires, there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that the Conservatives will win the next election. The party will spend the next 3 years at war with itself.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
Thanks to the stupidity of the ERGers, it now feels distinctly possible. I still think there’s a chance the deal gets through in June, after a 3 month extension.0 -
I'm a democrat as well.kle4 said:
Then you will be in a rare position - a remainer who will be annoyed that we will probably be remaining.TheScreamingEagles said:
Is why I'm in favour of No Deal (as opposed to revocation), it'll destroy the credibility of so many Leavers.another_richard said:
Rather ironically / annoyingly there's a good chance the ERG will end up controlling the Conservative party if Brexit doesn't happen.
What do you make of Andrea Jenkyns attitude ?
I don't know if she's a death cult fanatic or the most idiotic of useful idiots.0 -
-
That is actually 38 Labour votes. Possible.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.
DUP on board possible.
ERG down to 30 possible.
All 3? With Mays track record of charm and persuasion? Highly unlikely.0 -
I cracked that infamy joke back in 2017Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/9091711571774423120 -
There is a market on the vote on Betfair but I haven’t seen any others yet.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are there any markets up on this week's vote?AlastairMeeks said:
The deal is not going through this week. Ayes will be south of 250 IMO.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.0 -
Those polling questions are so loaded in favour of May's deal.Scott_P said:0 -
Thanks, hopefully SPIN will put up a market.AlastairMeeks said:
There is a market on the vote on Betfair but I haven’t seen any others yet.TheScreamingEagles said:
Are there any markets up on this week's vote?AlastairMeeks said:
The deal is not going through this week. Ayes will be south of 250 IMO.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.0 -
I'm staying green on both sides in a world where our politicians and our government seem to be operating in a way that defies rational analysis, at least by this punter of very little brain. The Independent takes Theresa May at her word and treats various collectives as blocs; it could well be right, or at least right for the wrong reasons.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:0 -
Who is Marcus Antonius?0
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It’s despicable if some Tories support the deal only on the condition of May’s resignation.0
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I am the remainer sans peur et sans reproche, but I think we should sign the Deal and leave. If the strategic goal is to bring the country together and start working on the future, then it is the only option I am aware of. If we just want to spend the next millennia screaming at each other and "failing and blaming", then fine, remain or no-deal. But frankly that's just fucking around at this point.kle4 said:
Then you will be in a rare position - a remainer who will be annoyed that we will probably be remaining.TheScreamingEagles said:
Is why I'm in favour of No Deal (as opposed to revocation), it'll destroy the credibility of so many Leavers.another_richard said:
Rather ironically / annoyingly there's a good chance the ERG will end up controlling the Conservative party if Brexit doesn't happen.
What do you make of Andrea Jenkyns attitude ?
I don't know if she's a death cult fanatic or the most idiotic of useful idiots.0 -
0
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DUP on board is a precondition of ERG being squeezed to the hard core.dixiedean said:
That is actually 38 Labour votes. Possible.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.
DUP on board possible.
ERG down to 30 possible.
All 3? With Mays track record of charm and persuasion? Highly unlikely.
Cannot see those 30 odd Labour votes to be honest.0 -
One thing we ought to have learned from MV One, is that, whilst our politicians are incompetent, our political journalists are little better. None of them saw a 230 vote defeat coming.
And that was, literally, their full time job. How many MPs have publicly stated they will change their vote? Not many.
Until many, more do, we can take professional hacks' opinions with a spoonful of salt.
They seem consumed by wishful thinking as much as anyone else.0 -
Right side story looks interesting. Seumas Milne apparently intervening in AS investigations.Scott_P said:0 -
Might lose by more than 230? I don’t see that at all.Scott_P said:0 -
Tim Shipman thinks the contenders are Johnson, Javid, Hunt and Raab?
I suspect the next Tory leader won't be any of those.0 -
Too busy mis-representing things on twitter.... plus ca change...rottenborough said:Very quiet from the cult this evening on the Murray item.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/11045040003957800990 -
Can anyone name an MP who voted against the deal in January and has publicly committed to voting for it this week?AlastairMeeks said:
The deal is not going through this week. Ayes will be south of 250 IMO.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.0 -
I follow politics in my spare time, and by the simple process of counting I got very close to the ultimate outcome. MPs have not generally been shy about their position on the meaningful vote. If they weren’t expecting a defeat of over 200 that was rank incompetence.dixiedean said:One thing we ought to have learned from MV One, is that, whilst our politicians are incompetent, our political journalists are little better. None of them saw a 230 vote defeat coming.
And that was, literally, their full time job. How many MPs have publicly stated they will change their vote? Not many.
Until many, more do, we can take professional hacks' opinions with a spoonful of salt.
They seem consumed by wishful thinking as much as anyone else.0 -
I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked...steve_garner said:
Right side story looks interesting. Seumas Milne apparently intervening in AS investigations.Scott_P said:0 -
Tracey Crouch?williamglenn said:Tim Shipman thinks the contenders are Johnson, Javid, Hunt and Raab?
I suspect the next Tory leader won't be any of those.0 -
I’m planning on looking at this properly tomorrow but off the top of my head, Robert Halfon and Jim Fitzpatrick.anothernick said:
Can anyone name an MP who voted against the deal in January and has publicly committed to voting for it this week?AlastairMeeks said:
The deal is not going through this week. Ayes will be south of 250 IMO.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.0 -
Boris and Raab can't both enter - they'll split the ERG vote and neither will make the final two.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Tracey Crouch?williamglenn said:Tim Shipman thinks the contenders are Johnson, Javid, Hunt and Raab?
I suspect the next Tory leader won't be any of those.
On reflection, they should both enter.0 -
Brady?AlastairMeeks said:
I’m planning on looking at this properly tomorrow but off the top of my head, Robert Halfon and Jim Fitzpatrick.anothernick said:
Can anyone name an MP who voted against the deal in January and has publicly committed to voting for it this week?AlastairMeeks said:
The deal is not going through this week. Ayes will be south of 250 IMO.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.0 -
Possibly not but I do expect that there will be at least one woman in the mix.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Tracey Crouch?williamglenn said:Tim Shipman thinks the contenders are Johnson, Javid, Hunt and Raab?
I suspect the next Tory leader won't be any of those.0 -
Graham Brady?anothernick said:
Can anyone name an MP who voted against the deal in January and has publicly committed to voting for it this week?AlastairMeeks said:
The deal is not going through this week. Ayes will be south of 250 IMO.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.0 -
Cox?Scrapheap_as_was said:
Tracey Crouch?williamglenn said:Tim Shipman thinks the contenders are Johnson, Javid, Hunt and Raab?
I suspect the next Tory leader won't be any of those.0 -
Kenneth Clarke.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Tracey Crouch?williamglenn said:Tim Shipman thinks the contenders are Johnson, Javid, Hunt and Raab?
I suspect the next Tory leader won't be any of those.0 -
An ex-USAF ex-colleague reckoned the sand dune collisions happened because the RAF was still using WW2 tactics of flying under German radar across flat Holland to drop dumb bombs on cows within 10 or 20 miles of their intended target. I do not know if that is fair but certainly he was not greatly impressed by our military support.viewcode said:
Wikipedia[1] says March 29 2019 date as the formal OSD (out of service date), but this[2] says March 31st. Could be wrong. I thought the co-incidence of Tonka retirement and Brexit date was too poignant not to mention.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"The planned final flight of an RAF Tornado is 14 March 2019 during the disbandment parade of No. IX (B) Squadron and No. 31 Squadron.[260]"viewcode said:
The sixties were fifty years ago. So your point was pointless.Sunil_Prasannan said:
All withdrawn from service...viewcode said:
...when we were laying down the logistics for pan-European cooperation by building Concorde, the Jaguar and Tornado....williamglenn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
However, interestingly Tornado is still in service, although only just. Have a guess on which day it is due to go out of service. (It's a coincidence, but a poignant one).
It wasn't a bad little aircraft. Never glamorous, but it was sturdy and could deliver bangy things from point A to point B with some reliability. It had a propensity to fly into sand dunes during gulf war 1, but it was good enough and in a field where quite a few things are not even that, that's a thing. It was far easier to maintain than the Lightning (the old one, not the new US one) as you could drop the engines straight out, the pilots loved it, it was a truck. The ground attack version was good, the air defence variant was (after a shit-ton of money was thrown at it) eventually good. It'll be missed.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_Kingdom_military_aircraft
[2] http://www.airheadjourno.com/the-royal-air-force-and-the-panavia-tornado-going-out-fighting/0 -
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1104506242683363328
A lot of public are about to be upset then.0 -
Me too. I'm quite sure JC was unaware.rottenborough said:
I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked...steve_garner said:
Right side story looks interesting. Seumas Milne apparently intervening in AS investigations.Scott_P said:0 -
"Present, but not involved."steve_garner said:
Me too. I'm quite sure JC was unaware.rottenborough said:
I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked...steve_garner said:
Right side story looks interesting. Seumas Milne apparently intervening in AS investigations.Scott_P said:
These words will be on his gravestone.0 -
Surely even Theresa May has to give up if she loses again by that sort of margin. But realistically the WA will have to go through at some point if we are going to leave the EU. I don't see can kicking working indefinitely either. We're either in or we're not.AlastairMeeks said:
The deal is not going through this week. Ayes will be south of 250 IMO.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.0 -
The cabinet minister in charge of Brexit has held detailed talks with Labour MPs who are championing plans for a second referendum – amid signs of mounting desperation inside Theresa May’s government about what to do if the prime minister’s deal suffers another crushing defeat on Tuesday.
Stephen Barclay, the Brexit secretary, called the meeting with Labour’s Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson in Downing Street last Thursday as negotiations with Brussels to resolve the deadlock over the Northern Ireland backstop floundered and ministers privately began to concede that May’s plan could be doomed.
Kyle told the Observer yesterday that Barclay had “remained loyal to government policy”, which is to oppose any second referendum. But the MP for Hove said Barclay talked to him and Wilson for at least 45 minutes and was “fully engaged”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/09/brexit-secretary-met-pro-referendum-labour-peter-kyle-phil-wilson0 -
Only 226 behind then. At this rate MV59 will pass some time in 2033.AlastairMeeks said:
I’m planning on looking at this properly tomorrow but off the top of my head, Robert Halfon and Jim Fitzpatrick.anothernick said:
Can anyone name an MP who voted against the deal in January and has publicly committed to voting for it this week?AlastairMeeks said:
The deal is not going through this week. Ayes will be south of 250 IMO.Gardenwalker said:
Rentoul’s “trilemma spreadsheet”, updated today, still has May’s Deal going through 320-310.AlastairMeeks said:
This is where I am at present too.Scott_P said:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELogQ8s_jdy55R2KAyvg5CDaFM3jVf_FiA7-TVbDL1I/mobilebasic
But May needs the DUP, 30 Labour votes, and to keep ERG refuseniks to 30 odd.
Each of those conditions currently look unlikely to me. I’m tipping - cos someone has to start somewhere - that May will lose 300-330.0 -
Dominic GrieveTheScreamingEagles said:
Kenneth Clarke.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Tracey Crouch?williamglenn said:Tim Shipman thinks the contenders are Johnson, Javid, Hunt and Raab?
I suspect the next Tory leader won't be any of those. 0 -
Clarke and Cox both labour under the great weakness that I haven't got bets on them unlike Crouch and her outlandish odds which would see me rich enough to buy cheese in the cheese room at White Hart Lane 2.TheScreamingEagles said:
Kenneth Clarke.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Tracey Crouch?williamglenn said:Tim Shipman thinks the contenders are Johnson, Javid, Hunt and Raab?
I suspect the next Tory leader won't be any of those.0 -
If the deal goes down on Tuesday but there's no follow-up No Deal vote on Wednesday that'll be a right shit-show.0
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Why does he look like he's four foot tall in that photograph?williamglenn said:0
