politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Surely an Article 50 extension should be used to allow a prope
Comments
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As that was an impossible scenario I doubt it.viewcode said:
I think it was said that the forecast assumed that the vote and departure would be contemporaneous.another_richard said:
We already know its not true as there wasn't a year long recession immediately after the Leave vote.viewcode said:
Well look at the bright side. You have twenty days to find out if that's true. Unless the Government has done such an enormous fuckup that we have to delay our exit for an indeterminate period. I mean, how stupid would that be....another_richard said:Perhaps we should have an investigation into this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf
The Treasury forecast which said there would be a certain year long recession immediately after a Leave vote.
[cries silently]0 -
Perhaps the phrase "United States of Europe" is obscuring it.TheAncientMariner said:
I can't see the words "Ever closer Union" in that tweet.williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1104305338424143872TheAncientMariner said:
Yes - well there's officially neutral and practically neutral. I don't remember receiving a letter from HMG extolling the benefits of leaving the EU. Come to think of it I think the original flyer back in 1975 made some pretty creative use of the English Language. - so the original referendum should be abolished and the UK reimbursed all the money paid to 'the Common Market' under false pretences.williamglenn said:
No it wasn’t. The governing party of the country was officially neutral and most of their activists were campaigning for it.partypoliticalorphan said:No, the header is, I would suggest, sour grapes.
The whole establishment was behind Remain and millions in taxpayers' money was spent on persuading the us including the HM Government leaflets.0 -
Any polls this evening ?0
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...when we were laying down the logistics for pan-European cooperation by building Concorde, the Jaguar and Tornado....williamglenn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde0 -
He might as well have shouted. "I want to be young again!"viewcode said:
...when we were laying down the logistics for pan-European cooperation by building Concorde, the Jaguar and Tornado....williamglenn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde0 -
I don't think impossibility would bother the Government. A tradition that seems to be proudly upheld by the present administration...another_richard said:
As that was an impossible scenario I doubt it.viewcode said:
I think it was said that the forecast assumed that the vote and departure would be contemporaneous.another_richard said:
We already know its not true as there wasn't a year long recession immediately after the Leave vote.viewcode said:
Well look at the bright side. You have twenty days to find out if that's true. Unless the Government has done such an enormous fuckup that we have to delay our exit for an indeterminate period. I mean, how stupid would that be....another_richard said:Perhaps we should have an investigation into this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf
The Treasury forecast which said there would be a certain year long recession immediately after a Leave vote.
[cries silently]
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The Leave campaign was a shambles. And I posted on here regularly explaining my frustrations at the time.Luckyguy1983 said:Personally I think the Leave campaign was a shambles, and during the referendum we were treated daily to Remainers telling us what a shambles it was. Now they're grasping at this particular straw, apparently the Leave campaign was a work of inhuman occult genius.
If the Leave campaign was that good, why didn't it manage to win in the Scottish Highlands (where it nearly won) thus utterly taking the wind out of the 'Scotland voted Remain' argument. Surely a bit of Putin's money and some of these magical Facebook ads could have done that?
Fortunately for Leave, though, the Remain campaign was pompous, patronising and tone deaf, so it was enough to win.0 -
Full Trump mode. It was only a matter of time.williamglenn said:0 -
If they finish last, let them be relegated. If they are good enough they will be immediately promoted the following season.another_richard said:
There's a lot of truth there but it wasn't too long ago that Scotland finished last and France have done so once as well._Anazina_ said:Dixie
The Six Nations should have incorporated relegation and promotions several seasons ago. Georgia are far superior to Italy and have won the European Rugby Championship in seven out of the last eight seasons. They have nowhere to go. How are they supposed to develop?
The blazers insist on keeping the 6N a closed shop presumably because the fans enjoy an annual trip to Rome.
The set up is anti competitive - the antithesis of sport - it is embarrassing.
Having Italy relegated might be acceptable the blazers but they wouldn't want to risk that happening to any of the other nations.0 -
If Leadsom had won it is probable that she would have come up with a deal similar to the one she is currently backing and would have been reclassified as an "enemy of the people" months ago,Luckyguy1983 said:
Some of us said as much at the time. Of course we were very much shouted down by people who thought May was brilliant, largely because they fondly hoped she would stop us leaving.brendan16 said:
I sometimes wonder how different the last two and a half years might have been if Andrea Leadsom had not dropped out of the leadership race. On polls amongst activists she is now seen as the most popular Cabinet minister. Could she really have done a worse job than May I now wonder - at least she would have believed in what she was doing. She might easily have had a better team at the top too e.g. Gove as Chancellor.williamglenn said:
A question of what ifs i suppose.
Still if she thinks we are going to get a deal signed off by 29 March she is going to be rather busy as Leader of the House - even if the Commons and Lords sat for 24 hours a day for the next 3 weeks I doubt they could achieve that - let alone with the EU parliament and the 27 member states having a say.0 -
Do am I - the explanation sounds plausible and the denials are comprehensive.dixiedean said:
I am prepared to believe it is a coincidence.Charles said:
Although they spent a lot of words connecting him to the BNP despite both parties to the story completely and utterly denying itdixiedean said:
The article is clear. Nobody knows.rottenborough said:
Where is this money coming from?Scott_P said:
It is, however, wryly amusing, in a grim way, that it is the writer of 2 Pints of Lager and a Packet of Crisps.
Bet he's getting paid more than that.
So why spend half the story on “two people (BNP Leave) that I don’t (BNP Leave) approve of, just (BNP Leave) like you dear readers, linking them in the (BNP Leave) reader’s mind when there is clearly no connection”?0 -
Sadly he has not aged well.williamglenn said:
He might as well have shouted. "I want to be young again!"viewcode said:
...when we were laying down the logistics for pan-European cooperation by building Concorde, the Jaguar and Tornado....williamglenn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde0 -
Yes, any compromise and her earlier remarks saying that she didn't think we should leave because it would create a lost decade would have been used as evidence that she was a Remain sleeper agent.OllyT said:
If Leadsom had won it is probable that she would have come up with a deal similar to the one she is currently backing and would have been reclassified as an "enemy of the people" months ago,Luckyguy1983 said:
Some of us said as much at the time. Of course we were very much shouted down by people who thought May was brilliant, largely because they fondly hoped she would stop us leaving.brendan16 said:
I sometimes wonder how different the last two and a half years might have been if Andrea Leadsom had not dropped out of the leadership race. On polls amongst activists she is now seen as the most popular Cabinet minister. Could she really have done a worse job than May I now wonder - at least she would have believed in what she was doing. She might easily have had a better team at the top too e.g. Gove as Chancellor.williamglenn said:
A question of what ifs i suppose.
Still if she thinks we are going to get a deal signed off by 29 March she is going to be rather busy as Leader of the House - even if the Commons and Lords sat for 24 hours a day for the next 3 weeks I doubt they could achieve that - let alone with the EU parliament and the 27 member states having a say.0 -
IanB2 said:
The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.0 -
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Proving that the UK has learnt nothing...Casino_Royale said:
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.0 -
"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.0 -
Relegation is not something people who benefit from being in cozy cartels can countenance._Anazina_ said:
If they finish last, let them be relegated. If they are good enough they will be immediately promoted the following season.another_richard said:
There's a lot of truth there but it wasn't too long ago that Scotland finished last and France have done so once as well._Anazina_ said:Dixie
The Six Nations should have incorporated relegation and promotions several seasons ago. Georgia are far superior to Italy and have won the European Rugby Championship in seven out of the last eight seasons. They have nowhere to go. How are they supposed to develop?
The blazers insist on keeping the 6N a closed shop presumably because the fans enjoy an annual trip to Rome.
The set up is anti competitive - the antithesis of sport - it is embarrassing.
Having Italy relegated might be acceptable the blazers but they wouldn't want to risk that happening to any of the other nations.0 -
Nah, you don't seem smart enough to be a Russian troll. You are just one of Putin's useful idiots!YBarddCwsc said:
I am another Russian troll. I don't want roubles.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Hello, PClipp! I am posting this message from a nice big dacha overlooking my troll farm just outside the Russian spa town of Novosunilsk!PClipp said:
If you sink to the level of Labour`s 2017 campaign to set your standards, Mr Navabi, you are sinking low indeed.Richard_Nabavi said:Telling voters that they were conned by Russian money or Aaron Banks is a mug's game, especially since they almost certainly weren't. The reasons people voted Leave are well known, and the campaign by Dominic Cummings was, I'm sorry to say, brutally effective, making full use of the levers available to him. It was dishonest, of course, but no more so than (say) Labour's 2017 GE campaign. That's politics.
In passing, how many Russian bots have we posting on this thread today? I think there are at least four.
Vladimir has just promised me use of the same bed in the presidential suite of the Moscow Ritz-Carlton used by President Trump, as well as services of the same urinating prostitutes,
You're too smart for us, PClipp !!0 -
Things are looking bad for Jacko.
Spiked, having done a sterling job defending Jimmy Savile's post mortem rep, have come out to bat for him.
'Michael Jackson: why do we believe his accusers?'
https://tinyurl.com/yy3x6rzq0 -
He's dead - how much worse can things look for him?Theuniondivvie said:Things are looking bad for Jacko.
Spiked, having done a sterling job defending Jimmy Savile's post mortem rep, have come out to bat for him.
'Michael Jackson: why do we believe his accusers?'
https://tinyurl.com/yy3x6rzq0 -
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Now remind me, how many Remainers did it take to work out the number of Universities in Cambridge?Nigel_Foremain said:
Nah, you don't seem smart enough to be a Russian troll. You are just one of Putin's useful idiots!YBarddCwsc said:
I am another Russian troll. I don't want roubles.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Hello, PClipp! I am posting this message from a nice big dacha overlooking my troll farm just outside the Russian spa town of Novosunilsk!PClipp said:
If you sink to the level of Labour`s 2017 campaign to set your standards, Mr Navabi, you are sinking low indeed.Richard_Nabavi said:Telling voters that they were conned by Russian money or Aaron Banks is a mug's game, especially since they almost certainly weren't. The reasons people voted Leave are well known, and the campaign by Dominic Cummings was, I'm sorry to say, brutally effective, making full use of the levers available to him. It was dishonest, of course, but no more so than (say) Labour's 2017 GE campaign. That's politics.
In passing, how many Russian bots have we posting on this thread today? I think there are at least four.
Vladimir has just promised me use of the same bed in the presidential suite of the Moscow Ritz-Carlton used by President Trump, as well as services of the same urinating prostitutes,
You're too smart for us, PClipp !!
I think you, Topping and Gardenwalker, even with some massive hints from other posters, still could not quite work it out.
The spoon is in the coffee cup, but nothing's stirring.0 -
Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?0 -
The bio says "relentless virtue signaller". Is he a parody?rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.0 -
Promoted from what, exactly?_Anazina_ said:
If they finish last, let them be relegated. If they are good enough they will be immediately promoted the following season.another_richard said:
There's a lot of truth there but it wasn't too long ago that Scotland finished last and France have done so once as well._Anazina_ said:Dixie
The Six Nations should have incorporated relegation and promotions several seasons ago. Georgia are far superior to Italy and have won the European Rugby Championship in seven out of the last eight seasons. They have nowhere to go. How are they supposed to develop?
The blazers insist on keeping the 6N a closed shop presumably because the fans enjoy an annual trip to Rome.
The set up is anti competitive - the antithesis of sport - it is embarrassing.
Having Italy relegated might be acceptable the blazers but they wouldn't want to risk that happening to any of the other nations.0 -
Depends where he’s ended up ?Benpointer said:
He's dead - how much worse can things look for him?Theuniondivvie said:Things are looking bad for Jacko.
Spiked, having done a sterling job defending Jimmy Savile's post mortem rep, have come out to bat for him.
'Michael Jackson: why do we believe his accusers?'
https://tinyurl.com/yy3x6rzq
0 -
It should be noted that her Tory hating, Labour member parents sent her to a grammar school.rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.
And did her ra-ra boys manage to provide any examples of her 'free thinking' on the previous thread ?0 -
He's ended up where we all do. Dead.Nigelb said:
Depends where he’s ended up ?Benpointer said:
He's dead - how much worse can things look for him?Theuniondivvie said:Things are looking bad for Jacko.
Spiked, having done a sterling job defending Jimmy Savile's post mortem rep, have come out to bat for him.
'Michael Jackson: why do we believe his accusers?'
https://tinyurl.com/yy3x6rzq0 -
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?0 -
She went to Leeds uni. Makes her a top lass in my book.another_richard said:
It should be noted that her Tory hating, Labour member parents sent her to a grammar school.rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.
And did her ra-ra boys manage to provide any examples of her 'free thinking' on the previous thread ?0 -
I know, I know.Floater said:
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
But: a) they cost a lot and: b) Mrs. P thinks the best thing about a cruise is 'we get way from it all'. Which means any covert interent access is frowned upon with as much severity as if I were openly browsing porn sites all day. So I'll have to abstain.
Just wondering whether much will happen in those 12 days?0 -
Evil grin - not much :-)Benpointer said:
I know, I know.Floater said:
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
But: a) they cost a lot and: b) Mrs. P thinks the best thing about a cruise is 'we get way from it all'. Which means any covert interent access is frowned upon with as much severity as if I were openly browsing porn sites all day. So I'll have to abstain.
Just wondering whether much will happen in those 12 days?0 -
I was going to do this a few weeks ago, but better late than never.rottenborough said:
Hear me now, quote me later - if his health holds up, Bernie Sanders will win both the Democratic nomination and the Presidency with ease in 2020.
As far as the nomination goes, he starts this time with huge name recognition and popularity amongst his party's voters, with money in the bank, and an enormous small-dollar funding apparatus. The Democratic base has shifted to the left in a similar (though so far less virulent) manner to the British Labour Party, and Sanders' long track record of Left populism answers both their real economic and social demands as well as the authenticity they crave, far more so than superficially attractive candidates such as Kamala Harris. Elizabeth Warren has made a number of missteps, and is regarded as having made too many compromises by her former admirers. Bernie's only real challenger, Joe Biden, will wilt quickly given his career of gaffes, lack on staying power in political contests, and - most unforgivably at this moment - lack of economic populism. Lay Biden fast if he enters.
That same economic populism will be equally popular in the rust belt states that deserted Clinton for Trump, and they will likewise desert him for Sanders.
As a conservative, I don't want any of this to happen (although Sanders is far more honest and intelligent than the utter dreck we have on the left in the UK) but things are set very, very fair for him - again, as long as his health holds out.0 -
We are fortunate as we have an elite package with Princess having completed 8 cruises with them and will get 500 minutes free internet access each on our September cruise to Canada and US. However, on our recent med cruises we used 4g access throughout most of Europe and hardly used the ships internet, which is unreliable at bestBenpointer said:
I know, I know.Floater said:
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
But: a) they cost a lot and: b) Mrs. P thinks the best thing about a cruise is 'we get way from it all'. Which means any covert interent access is frowned upon with as much severity as if I were openly browsing porn sites all day. So I'll have to abstain.
Just wondering whether much will happen in those 12 days?0 -
God there's nothing worse than when a member of the middle classes pretends to be working class.rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.0 -
Grammar schools are free at the point of use.another_richard said:
It should be noted that her Tory hating, Labour member parents sent her to a grammar school.rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.0 -
Speak for yourself. I'm working on immortality. So far it's working...Benpointer said:
He's ended up where we all do. Dead.Nigelb said:
Depends where he’s ended up ?Benpointer said:
He's dead - how much worse can things look for him?Theuniondivvie said:Things are looking bad for Jacko.
Spiked, having done a sterling job defending Jimmy Savile's post mortem rep, have come out to bat for him.
'Michael Jackson: why do we believe his accusers?'
https://tinyurl.com/yy3x6rzq 0 -
Enjoy your cruise.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
You'll miss JRM, Farage, Boris et al saying we should Remain members of the EU whilst on your cruise.0 -
Interesting view. I agree that Sanders will see off Warren and other populist challengers. I'm less sure of how he'll fair against Biden and particularly Trump, who will unleash stuff about "Commie Bernie" on the line of the Mail's coverage of Corbyn. British voters shrug these things off more easily than Americans.blueblue said:
I was going to do this a few weeks ago, but better late than never.rottenborough said:
Hear me now, quote me later - if his health holds up, Bernie Sanders will win both the Democratic nomination and the Presidency with ease in 2020.
As far as the nomination goes, he starts this time with huge name recognition and popularity amongst his party's voters, with money in the bank, and an enormous small-dollar funding apparatus. The Democratic base has shifted to the left in a similar (though so far less virulent) manner to the British Labour Party, and Sanders' long track record of Left populism answers both their real economic and social demands as well as the authenticity they crave, far more so than superficially attractive candidates such as Kamala Harris. Elizabeth Warren has made a number of missteps, and is regarded as having made too many compromises by her former admirers. Bernie's only real challenger, Joe Biden, will wilt quickly given his career of gaffes, lack on staying power in political contests, and - most unforgivably at this moment - lack of economic populism. Lay Biden fast if he enters.
That same economic populism will be equally popular in the rust belt states that deserted Clinton for Trump, and they will likewise desert him for Sanders.
As a conservative, I don't want any of this to happen (although Sanders is far more honest and intelligent than the utter dreck we have on the left in the UK) but things are set very, very fair for him - again, as long as his health holds out.0 -
Name names. (I’m not saying there weren’t any - just that naming and shaming is appropriate.)Luckyguy1983 said:
Some of us said as much at the time. Of course we were very much shouted down by people who thought May was brilliant, largely because they fondly hoped she would stop us leaving.brendan16 said:
I sometimes wonder how different the last two and a half years might have been if Andrea Leadsom had not dropped out of the leadership race. On polls amongst activists she is now seen as the most popular Cabinet minister. Could she really have done a worse job than May I now wonder - at least she would have believed in what she was doing. She might easily have had a better team at the top too e.g. Gove as Chancellor.williamglenn said:
A question of what ifs i suppose.
Still if she thinks we are going to get a deal signed off by 29 March she is going to be rather busy as Leader of the House - even if the Commons and Lords sat for 24 hours a day for the next 3 weeks I doubt they could achieve that - let alone with the EU parliament and the 27 member states having a say.
I have very little time for Leadsom’s politics, but I have to admit that whatever limitations she might have, she is one of the few cabinet ministers whose reputation have not declined significantly since the election.
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All withdrawn from service...viewcode said:
...when we were laying down the logistics for pan-European cooperation by building Concorde, the Jaguar and Tornado....williamglenn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
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Who cares? Seriously, who cares where she went to school or what her parents did or didn't do?another_richard said:It should be noted that her Tory hating, Labour member parents sent her to a grammar school.
And did her ra-ra boys manage to provide any examples of her 'free thinking' on the previous thread ?
Another example of the Right obsessed by education and upbringing.0 -
What has that got to do with anything. Absurd remarks by MattWainrottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.0 -
Labour members usually proclaim them to be bad things.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Grammar schools are free at the point of use.another_richard said:
It should be noted that her Tory hating, Labour member parents sent her to a grammar school.rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.
At least for other people's children.0 -
It's possible. People I know, who live in Vermont, and are generally pretty right wing, are strong Bernie supporters because of his competent administration of Burlington, improving services and getting the city finances in order. Things that they don't see with Trump, or previously George W Bush.blueblue said:
I was going to do this a few weeks ago, but better late than never.rottenborough said:
Hear me now, quote me later - if his health holds up, Bernie Sanders will win both the Democratic nomination and the Presidency with ease in 2020.
As far as the nomination goes, he starts this time with huge name recognition and popularity amongst his party's voters, with money in the bank, and an enormous small-dollar funding apparatus. The Democratic base has shifted to the left in a similar (though so far less virulent) manner to the British Labour Party, and Sanders' long track record of Left populism answers both their real economic and social demands as well as the authenticity they crave, far more so than superficially attractive candidates such as Kamala Harris. Elizabeth Warren has made a number of missteps, and is regarded as having made too many compromises by her former admirers. Bernie's only real challenger, Joe Biden, will wilt quickly given his career of gaffes, lack on staying power in political contests, and - most unforgivably at this moment - lack of economic populism. Lay Biden fast if he enters.
That same economic populism will be equally popular in the rust belt states that deserted Clinton for Trump, and they will likewise desert him for Sanders.
As a conservative, I don't want any of this to happen (although Sanders is far more honest and intelligent than the utter dreck we have on the left in the UK) but things are set very, very fair for him - again, as long as his health holds out.0 -
The sixties were fifty years ago. So your point was pointless.Sunil_Prasannan said:
All withdrawn from service...viewcode said:
...when we were laying down the logistics for pan-European cooperation by building Concorde, the Jaguar and Tornado....williamglenn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
However, interestingly Tornado is still in service, although only just. Have a guess on which day it is due to go out of service. (It's a coincidence, but a poignant one).0 -
Bernie would be older when he took office than Ronnie was when he left it.blueblue said:
I was going to do this a few weeks ago, but better late than never.rottenborough said:
Hear me now, quote me later - if his health holds up, Bernie Sanders will win both the Democratic nomination and the Presidency with ease in 2020.
As far as the nomination goes, he starts this time with huge name recognition and popularity amongst his party's voters, with money in the bank, and an enormous small-dollar funding apparatus. The Democratic base has shifted to the left in a similar (though so far less virulent) manner to the British Labour Party, and Sanders' long track record of Left populism answers both their real economic and social demands as well as the authenticity they crave, far more so than superficially attractive candidates such as Kamala Harris. Elizabeth Warren has made a number of missteps, and is regarded as having made too many compromises by her former admirers. Bernie's only real challenger, Joe Biden, will wilt quickly given his career of gaffes, lack on staying power in political contests, and - most unforgivably at this moment - lack of economic populism. Lay Biden fast if he enters.
That same economic populism will be equally popular in the rust belt states that deserted Clinton for Trump, and they will likewise desert him for Sanders.
As a conservative, I don't want any of this to happen (although Sanders is far more honest and intelligent than the utter dreck we have on the left in the UK) but things are set very, very fair for him - again, as long as his health holds out.0 -
No but her reputation was hardly stratospheric before the election....Nigelb said:
Name names. (I’m not saying there weren’t any - just that naming and shaming is appropriate.)Luckyguy1983 said:
Some of us said as much at the time. Of course we were very much shouted down by people who thought May was brilliant, largely because they fondly hoped she would stop us leaving.brendan16 said:
I sometimes wonder how different the last two and a half years might have been if Andrea Leadsom had not dropped out of the leadership race. On polls amongst activists she is now seen as the most popular Cabinet minister. Could she really have done a worse job than May I now wonder - at least she would have believed in what she was doing. She might easily have had a better team at the top too e.g. Gove as Chancellor.williamglenn said:
A question of what ifs i suppose.
Still if she thinks we are going to get a deal signed off by 29 March she is going to be rather busy as Leader of the House - even if the Commons and Lords sat for 24 hours a day for the next 3 weeks I doubt they could achieve that - let alone with the EU parliament and the 27 member states having a say.
I have very little time for Leadsom’s politics, but I have to admit that whatever limitations she might have, she is one of the few cabinet ministers whose reputation have not declined significantly since the election.
0 -
Riker said to Picard:viewcode said:
Speak for yourself. I'm working on immortality. So far it's working...Benpointer said:
He's ended up where we all do. Dead.Nigelb said:
Depends where he’s ended up ?Benpointer said:
He's dead - how much worse can things look for him?Theuniondivvie said:Things are looking bad for Jacko.
Spiked, having done a sterling job defending Jimmy Savile's post mortem rep, have come out to bat for him.
'Michael Jackson: why do we believe his accusers?'
https://tinyurl.com/yy3x6rzq
"Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever. [touches captain's chair] I always thought I'd get a shot at this chair one day."0 -
You're a fundamentalist zealot, not a politician.williamglenn said:
Proving that the UK has learnt nothing...Casino_Royale said:
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.0 -
It's all this online Genealogy stuff, innit.stodge said:
Who cares? Seriously, who cares where she went to school or what her parents did or didn't do?another_richard said:It should be noted that her Tory hating, Labour member parents sent her to a grammar school.
And did her ra-ra boys manage to provide any examples of her 'free thinking' on the previous thread ?
Another example of the Right obsessed by education and upbringing.0 -
Does that turn you on?williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.0 -
GODSDAMMIT I THOUGHT NOBODY WOULD GET THE REFERENCE!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Riker said to Picard:viewcode said:
Speak for yourself. I'm working on immortality. So far it's working...Benpointer said:
He's ended up where we all do. Dead.Nigelb said:
Depends where he’s ended up ?Benpointer said:
He's dead - how much worse can things look for him?Theuniondivvie said:Things are looking bad for Jacko.
Spiked, having done a sterling job defending Jimmy Savile's post mortem rep, have come out to bat for him.
'Michael Jackson: why do we believe his accusers?'
https://tinyurl.com/yy3x6rzq
"Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever. [touches captain's chair] I always thought I'd get a shot at this chair one day."0 -
BUT YOU MIS-QUOTED IT!viewcode said:
GODSDAMMIT I THOUGHT NOBODY WOULD GET THE REFERENCE!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Riker said to Picard:viewcode said:
Speak for yourself. I'm working on immortality. So far it's working...Benpointer said:
He's ended up where we all do. Dead.Nigelb said:
Depends where he’s ended up ?Benpointer said:
He's dead - how much worse can things look for him?Theuniondivvie said:Things are looking bad for Jacko.
Spiked, having done a sterling job defending Jimmy Savile's post mortem rep, have come out to bat for him.
'Michael Jackson: why do we believe his accusers?'
https://tinyurl.com/yy3x6rzq
"Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever. [touches captain's chair] I always thought I'd get a shot at this chair one day."0 -
I'M NOT PERFECT.Sunil_Prasannan said:
BUT YOU MIS-QUOTED IT!viewcode said:
GODSDAMMIT I THOUGHT NOBODY WOULD GET THE REFERENCE!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Riker said to Picard:viewcode said:
Speak for yourself. I'm working on immortality. So far it's working...Benpointer said:
He's ended up where we all do. Dead.Nigelb said:
Depends where he’s ended up ?Benpointer said:
He's dead - how much worse can things look for him?Theuniondivvie said:Things are looking bad for Jacko.
Spiked, having done a sterling job defending Jimmy Savile's post mortem rep, have come out to bat for him.
'Michael Jackson: why do we believe his accusers?'
https://tinyurl.com/yy3x6rzq
"Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever. [touches captain's chair] I always thought I'd get a shot at this chair one day."
PAUSE
WHY AM I SHOUTING?0 -
Yes, been in exactly the same position with a mega-enthusiast cruiser. no good alternative to simply relaxing and acclimatising to bridge and dance classes, lengthy afternoon tea, and idle chatter. But I'd think she'll let you sneak off to see if we've left the EU or not!Benpointer said:
I know, I know.Floater said:
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
But: a) they cost a lot and: b) Mrs. P thinks the best thing about a cruise is 'we get way from it all'. Which means any covert interent access is frowned upon with as much severity as if I were openly browsing porn sites all day. So I'll have to abstain.
Just wondering whether much will happen in those 12 days?0 -
I should have given a longer response but your solution listed a large number of 'concessions' from the EU, but nothing about what the UK will do to make its membership work better. What does "toning down the use of its flag" mean? You almost never see it in this country. It's not displayed on public buildings in the same way it is in most other member states.Casino_Royale said:
You're a fundamentalist zealot, not a politician.williamglenn said:
Proving that the UK has learnt nothing...Casino_Royale said:
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.0 -
"The planned final flight of an RAF Tornado is 14 March 2019 during the disbandment parade of No. IX (B) Squadron and No. 31 Squadron.[260]"viewcode said:
The sixties were fifty years ago. So your point was pointless.Sunil_Prasannan said:
All withdrawn from service...viewcode said:
...when we were laying down the logistics for pan-European cooperation by building Concorde, the Jaguar and Tornado....williamglenn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
However, interestingly Tornado is still in service, although only just. Have a guess on which day it is due to go out of service. (It's a coincidence, but a poignant one).0 -
Fourth placed West Brom have sacked Darren Moore.0
-
Lucky you.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
Enjoy your cruise and have a wonderfully relaxing and enjoyable time.0 -
"They say time is the fire in which we burn. Right now, Captain, my time is running out. We leave so many things unfinished in our lives... I know you understand."viewcode said:
Well look at the bright side. You have twenty days to find out if that's true. Unless the Government has done such an enormous fuckup that we have to delay our exit for an indeterminate period. I mean, how stupid would that be....another_richard said:Perhaps we should have an investigation into this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf
The Treasury forecast which said there would be a certain year long recession immediately after a Leave vote.
[cries silently]0 -
I wouldn’t worry you should be back in time for the MV 3 . Mays deal is like Jason in Halloween , you think hes died but keeps coming back to life .Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
May will still be droning on about her MV as life on earth is wiped out by a meteor !0 -
I’m going to guess it’s the same same day as Disney’s film Dumbo is released - 29 March.viewcode said:
The sixties were fifty years ago. So your point was pointless.Sunil_Prasannan said:
All withdrawn from service...viewcode said:
...when we were laying down the logistics for pan-European cooperation by building Concorde, the Jaguar and Tornado....williamglenn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
However, interestingly Tornado is still in service, although only just. Have a guess on which day it is due to go out of service. (It's a coincidence, but a poignant one).0 -
Well this would kick the European elections in to the long grass if we delay Brexit
https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/11044701094421831680 -
"The planned final flight of an RAF Tornado is 14 March 2019 during the disbandment parade of No. IX (B) Squadron and No. 31 Squadron.[260]"NeilVW said:
I’m going to guess it’s the same same day as Disney’s film Dumbo is released - 29 March.viewcode said:
The sixties were fifty years ago. So your point was pointless.Sunil_Prasannan said:
All withdrawn from service...viewcode said:
...when we were laying down the logistics for pan-European cooperation by building Concorde, the Jaguar and Tornado....williamglenn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
However, interestingly Tornado is still in service, although only just. Have a guess on which day it is due to go out of service. (It's a coincidence, but a poignant one).0 -
Thanks, looking forward to it.Cyclefree said:
Lucky you.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
Enjoy your cruise and have a wonderfully relaxing and enjoyable time.
Sadly, we have an unexpected and woefully premature family funeral on Monday, then we off on our cruise on Tuesday. Somewhat surreal situation really but it will be good to get away for a couple of weeks.0 -
I imagine the MJ estate is in reasonably good health and very much concerned about its longevity. Besides, Jacko lives on in the hearts of his fans for evah (well, as long as they remain convinced that all the pedo stuff is hogwash).Benpointer said:
He's dead - how much worse can things look for him?Theuniondivvie said:Things are looking bad for Jacko.
Spiked, having done a sterling job defending Jimmy Savile's post mortem rep, have come out to bat for him.
'Michael Jackson: why do we believe his accusers?'
https://tinyurl.com/yy3x6rzq0 -
Haha! Yes maybe. Though I suspect I will know without the internet that 'nothing has changed' while we have been away.NickPalmer said:
Yes, been in exactly the same position with a mega-enthusiast cruiser. no good alternative to simply relaxing and acclimatising to bridge and dance classes, lengthy afternoon tea, and idle chatter. But I'd think she'll let you sneak off to see if we've left the EU or not!Benpointer said:
I know, I know.Floater said:
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
But: a) they cost a lot and: b) Mrs. P thinks the best thing about a cruise is 'we get way from it all'. Which means any covert interent access is frowned upon with as much severity as if I were openly browsing porn sites all day. So I'll have to abstain.
Just wondering whether much will happen in those 12 days? 0 -
Nah, Nothing has changed. When you return it will still be Groundhog Day.Benpointer said:
I know, I know.Floater said:
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
But: a) they cost a lot and: b) Mrs. P thinks the best thing about a cruise is 'we get way from it all'. Which means any covert interent access is frowned upon with as much severity as if I were openly browsing porn sites all day. So I'll have to abstain.
Just wondering whether much will happen in those 12 days?0 -
Big_G_NorthWales said:
What has that got to do with anything. Absurd remarks by MattWainrottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.
Precisely. Well said.0 -
I'd probably cancel the cruise for that. But if they do, the effect will still be felt when I return.TheScreamingEagles said:
Enjoy your cruise.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
You'll miss JRM, Farage, Boris et al saying we should Remain members of the EU whilst on your cruise.
It's totally incredible to me that 21 months after the disaster that was the Eu Ref, there's still a more than remote chance we won't leave. If that comes to pass I shall forever hold a place in my heart for the ERG for so colosally f*cking it up.
0 -
Remainers like me thank God for the stupidity of Brexiteers on a daily basis. They are determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. And who are we to stand in their way.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
We could have blue passports within the EU anyway. Just saying.Casino_Royale said:IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.0 -
Has been 33 months since the EU Referendum.Benpointer said:
I'd probably cancel the cruise for that. But if they do, the effect will still be felt when I return.TheScreamingEagles said:
Enjoy your cruise.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
You'll miss JRM, Farage, Boris et al saying we should Remain members of the EU whilst on your cruise.
It's totally incredible to me that 21 months after the disaster that was the Eu Ref, there's still a more than remote chance we won't leave. If that comes to pass I shall forever hold a place in my heart for the ERG for so colosally f*cking it up.
The call that I received telling me Dave was resigning is seared into my brain, heart, and soul.0 -
Very probably.Foxy said:
Nah, Nothing has changed. When you return it will still be Groundhog Day.Benpointer said:
I know, I know.Floater said:
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
But: a) they cost a lot and: b) Mrs. P thinks the best thing about a cruise is 'we get way from it all'. Which means any covert interent access is frowned upon with as much severity as if I were openly browsing porn sites all day. So I'll have to abstain.
Just wondering whether much will happen in those 12 days?0 -
It means ceasing placing its flag on numberplates, passports, driving licences, funding plaques, and twinnings that contribute to a creeping sense of federalisation in this country.williamglenn said:
I should have given a longer response but your solution listed a large number of 'concessions' from the EU, but nothing about what the UK will do to make its membership work better. What does "toning down the use of its flag" mean? You almost never see it in this country. It's not displayed on public buildings in the same way it is in most other member states.Casino_Royale said:
You're a fundamentalist zealot, not a politician.williamglenn said:
Proving that the UK has learnt nothing...Casino_Royale said:
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.
Symbols matter. And it costs the EU nothing, apart from a bit of pride.
The concessions, such as they are, are simply recognising the UK is different, as it always has been. I've laid out two options there: one a Remain I think many Leavers could live with, and the other a Leave many Remainers could live with.
Anything else is politically unsustainable.0 -
I can't think of a case like it. I suspect managers have been sacked having not gone up through the play-offs when the club was expecting automatic promotion. But I can't believe this will do West Brom much good for the rest of the regular season and the play-offs (assuming they make them).trawl said:
My team. Been today, v poor. But sack the manager? Ridiculous. We’re fourth. Stoke were pre season favourites I think and are nowhere. Symptomatic of desperation for PL cash. Nothing else matters.tlg86 said:Fourth placed West Brom have sacked Darren Moore.
0 -
I've heard too many bad stories about cruises to want to go on one.
Where do you go, and what do you book, if you want to avoid obese Britons and Germans with no table manners, dignity or dress sense?0 -
There’s a long way to go before we finally get to learn just where the Leave money was coming from and how it was being directed. The enthusiasm with which Leave cheerleaders are obfuscating is itself thought-provoking.0
-
So they say, now.Benpointer said:
We could have blue passports within the EU anyway. Just saying.Casino_Royale said:IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.0 -
Yes, the Corbynites are sounding a bit scared of Jess. Go girl! challenge for leader...Benpointer said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
What has that got to do with anything. Absurd remarks by MattWainrottenborough said:https://twitter.com/TheMattWain/status/1104371232722612224
Give me strength.
Precisely. Well said.
This is completely unrelated to Jess being my greenest Labour leader position 0 -
Croatia have blue passports.Casino_Royale said:
So they say, now.Benpointer said:
We could have blue passports within the EU anyway. Just saying.Casino_Royale said:IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.0 -
A friend of mine (~30 yo), her hubbie, and their 3-yo son go on a cruise once a year, as she cannot abide flying. I can't remember which company they go with, but she absolutely loves it - and so does their son.Casino_Royale said:I've heard too many bad stories about cruises to want to go on one.
Where do you go, and what do you book, if you want to avoid obese Britons and Germans with no table manners, dignity or dress sense?
Perhaps it depends on the company you go with (and hence the ship)?
BTW, hope your wife and daughter are well, and that you're getting some sleep!0 -
Silversea have a very good reputation as a cruise company. Like others, the idea doesn’t appeal to me much.0
-
The remainers who are screaming for another referendum are forgetting one vital point: they lost last time because they failed to persuade people of their arguments. And they're making the same mistake again: they're talking to their core, not the people who might be persuaded that, you know, the EU isn't so bad after all...YBarddCwsc said:I think If I was Remainer, and I wanted the result overturned, I would return to Cameron's deal and try and get the EU to improve it somewhat.
The result was close, and I think if there is a new deal that improves the terms of Cameron's, it is reasonable to put it before the people and it might well pass.0 -
If all it costs is "a bit of pride", why not suck up the symbols? If we're going to be in the EU, it doesn't help to pretend we're not really part of it. Surely that's one of the lessons the UK should learn from this whole episode.Casino_Royale said:
It means ceasing placing its flag on numberplates, passports, driving licences, funding plaques, and twinnings that contribute to a creeping sense of federalisation in this country.williamglenn said:
I should have given a longer response but your solution listed a large number of 'concessions' from the EU, but nothing about what the UK will do to make its membership work better. What does "toning down the use of its flag" mean? You almost never see it in this country. It's not displayed on public buildings in the same way it is in most other member states.Casino_Royale said:
You're a fundamentalist zealot, not a politician.williamglenn said:
Proving that the UK has learnt nothing...Casino_Royale said:
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.
Symbols matter. And it costs the EU nothing, apart from a bit of pride.
The concessions, such as they are, are simply recognising the UK is different, as it always has been. I've laid out two options there: one a Remain I think many Leavers could live with, and the other a Leave many Remainers could live with.
Anything else is politically unsustainable.0 -
If you want judicial authority from the Court of Appeal for the positions that (1) the referendum was valid at common law, (2) the PM was intra vires sending the A50 notification (3) the illegalities on either side of the campaign did not affect Parliament's or the PM's decision to serve the A50 notice, and that we are not, accordingly, leaving the European Union on the basis of some tweets saying "I am Britisher and defiantly nyet troll, you should voting Leaf Europe tomorrow", here it is: https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2019/304.htmlgeoffw said:As against Anne Applebaum's WaPo conjectures in the header there is this:
https://order-order.com/2019/03/08/judge-crushes-remainers-claims-referendum-result-invalid/
You'll note from the obiter that the idea that Leave's last minute social media spending actually converted eight hundred thousand people was "patently unsound". Ouseley was rightly absolutely excoriating about that abject piece of propaganda dressed up as research from Oxford.
"...at the heart of their case" says the appeal judge Hickinbottom LJ, "is an attack on the democratic process". I don't think any more need be said.0 -
I cruised the Nile 20 years ago, a supurb trip. I expected the history and archeology to be amazing, and they were, but Egypt is a surprisingly beautiful country scenically, and the country life a daily panorama. Also much safer and less hassle than the roads.JosiasJessop said:
A friend of mine (~30 yo), her hubbie, and their 3-yo son go on a cruise once a year, as she cannot abide flying. I can't remember which company they go with, but she absolutely loves it - and so does their son.Casino_Royale said:I've heard too many bad stories about cruises to want to go on one.
Where do you go, and what do you book, if you want to avoid obese Britons and Germans with no table manners, dignity or dress sense?
Perhaps it depends on the company you go with (and hence the ship)?
BTW, hope your wife and daughter are well, and that you're getting some sleep!
My parents have never fancied blue water cruising, but have loved river cruising, and have covered most of the rivers in Europe. Found the Rhone a bit dull but enjoyed the others as far as the Volga.
0 -
My dad spent the early 1960 working his way around the world. On his way back, he was on a tramp steamer and he had an option: he could remain on the ship through the Suez Canal which, as someone who loves buildings and structures he really wanted to experience, or go to see the Pyramids and meet another ship in the Med.Foxy said:
I cruised the Nile 20 years ago, a supurb trip. I expected the history and archeology to be amazing, and they were, but Egypt is a surprisingly beautiful country scenically, and the country life a daily panorama. Also much safer and less hassle than the roads.JosiasJessop said:
A friend of mine (~30 yo), her hubbie, and their 3-yo son go on a cruise once a year, as she cannot abide flying. I can't remember which company they go with, but she absolutely loves it - and so does their son.Casino_Royale said:I've heard too many bad stories about cruises to want to go on one.
Where do you go, and what do you book, if you want to avoid obese Britons and Germans with no table manners, dignity or dress sense?
Perhaps it depends on the company you go with (and hence the ship)?
BTW, hope your wife and daughter are well, and that you're getting some sleep!
My parents have never fancied blue water cruising, but have loved river cruising, and have covered most of the rivers in Europe. Found the Rhone a bit dull but enjoyed the others as far as the Volga.
He chose the former, and he's never been to see the Pyramids. He slightly regrets it.0 -
Well, we have only tried a couple of P&O cruises. Better than average table manners encountered. Some might feel it's a bit formal but we've met some interesting people. Yes there are some obese Brits (no Germans so far) but where do you go to avoid them?Casino_Royale said:I've heard too many bad stories about cruises to want to go on one.
Where do you go, and what do you book, if you want to avoid obese Britons and Germans with no table manners, dignity or dress sense?
Most people who don't like curises have never been on one and most who have been on one go on another. Each to their own though.0 -
This could be a vote winner:
"Elizabeth Warren vows to break up tech giants if elected in 2020"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-475099450 -
My conscience couldn't cope with a cruise.....human beings are trashing the planet, and cruises represent some of our worst excesses/ perhaps marginally superior (just) to trophy hunting wonderful animalsNickPalmer said:
Yes, been in exactly the same position with a mega-enthusiast cruiser. no good alternative to simply relaxing and acclimatising to bridge and dance classes, lengthy afternoon tea, and idle chatter. But I'd think she'll let you sneak off to see if we've left the EU or not!Benpointer said:
I know, I know.Floater said:
On my cruise I paid for internet packages - you may prefer to go without, but the option is I think there.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
But: a) they cost a lot and: b) Mrs. P thinks the best thing about a cruise is 'we get way from it all'. Which means any covert interent access is frowned upon with as much severity as if I were openly browsing porn sites all day. So I'll have to abstain.
Just wondering whether much will happen in those 12 days?
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Yeah you're right of course - maths meltdown... I'm blaming it on the bottle of Côtes du Rhône (not the port that followed - well it is the weekend after all!)TheScreamingEagles said:
Has been 33 months since the EU Referendum.Benpointer said:
I'd probably cancel the cruise for that. But if they do, the effect will still be felt when I return.TheScreamingEagles said:
Enjoy your cruise.Benpointer said:Right, we are off on a 12 day cruise from Tuesday 12th; virtually no access to the internet or indeed any news beyond P&O's Daily Mail lite one pager each day.
What chance is there that after 3 years of tedious Brexit debate, I will miss the actual denouement?
You'll miss JRM, Farage, Boris et al saying we should Remain members of the EU whilst on your cruise.
It's totally incredible to me that 21 months after the disaster that was the Eu Ref, there's still a more than remote chance we won't leave. If that comes to pass I shall forever hold a place in my heart for the ERG for so colosally f*cking it up.
The call that I received telling me Dave was resigning is seared into my brain, heart, and soul.0 -
This is nonsense on stilts. The EU has only got where it's got in this negotiation because our political classes didn't want to leave. A decent negotiator would have wiped the floor with them over the Irish border along the lines of "we won't follow your rules unless we happen to want to and we won't put in place any hard border with our friends in the Republic of Ireland. What are you planning on doing - build a wall and get the Mexicans to pay for it?"williamglenn said:"UK realising EU is dominant power in Europe and Brexit will be on its terms"
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/uk-realising-eu-is-dominant-power-in-europe-and-brexit-will-be-on-its-terms-1.3818132
The European response to the UK’s exit is very revealing about the nature of the union at it approaches the third decade of the 21st century. It is a political community with some state-like characteristics not just an arena for transacting business, although it is a formidable negotiating machine.
It is far more like a state than a souped-up regional UN. The EU has hard power and deploys that power to pursue its interests and safeguard itself when faced with an existential threat.
This approach would have made Northern Ireland an immense problem for the EU, and no problem for us - which we could have then used as negotiating leverage (e.g. we could have then extracted concessions for alignment on Irish agricultural stuff say in return for single market access on services).
Similarly, when the EU started spouting off about "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" we should have told them "No deal it is" and forced them to make mini-deals sector by sector (and we can see from their no deal planning that they would have gone down this road). With a couple of years in hand to make arrangements we would have had nothing to fear from no deal.
Even in the current mess, the situation is salvageable - "No backstop or no deal". The EU would fold - the ramifications of no deal on the RoI exceed any problems we would have by such an order of magnitude they have no choice. Instead, out MPs have essentially said "No backstop or remain" and then seem surprised that the EU is reluctant to ditch the backstop.
Ultimately a negotiation between two sets of parties that both want the same outcome is always going to arrive at that outcome - and as usual our political classes have demonstrated their contempt for us the people by ignoring our clear instructions to them, as obviously nanny knows best.
I'm rather looking forward to a second referendum, provided its not a stitch up between BINO and Remain - campaigning on a slogan of "Tell them again - but louder" is almost certainly going to win.0 -
The UK govt chose burgundy passports. It's a good example of something the UK govt did that the EU has been blamed for. (A more recent example, of course, is the backstop. A very important example has been the UK govt's decision not to register EU migrants and allowing the unproductive ones to stay here, even though we have the right to send them home.) This misallocation of blame hasn't been accidental - the EU has been a handy bogeyman for UK govts ever since we joined.Casino_Royale said:
So they say, now.Benpointer said:
We could have blue passports within the EU anyway. Just saying.Casino_Royale said:IanB2 said:The question is what is the most legitimate way to get out of this whole mess.
Both the UK and EU declare they’ve learnt lessons from the whole experience, the EU offers the UK special status to stay, including an emergency brake on migration, and opt outs of any further political integration (which it commits to also being reversable) and agrees to reform its budget. It also agrees softer cultural stuff like to use less federalist language in future and talk more about preserving national identities and toning the use of its flag down a bit. And gives us blue passports anyway. Draft heads of terms for a future treaty are put with the UN or third party.
It is then put to a referendum to ratify v. May’s Deal. Two choices.0
