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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Six weeks tomorrow could mark the beginning of the end for the United Kingdom as we know it
One of the features of Brexit, particularly a no deal one, is the impact that it could have on the integrity of the United Kingdom.
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First - but I really don't get how anyone can think that the UK will remain whole if we leave the EU.
Northern Ireland and Scotland will be doing everything they can to leave the UK...0 -
Second!0
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I am not a number!0
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Fourth like the new centre party, if they're lucky.0
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Fifth like Boris0
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If only one could have confidence that our Parliamentarians are capable of rising to the occasion.0
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Can't see Wales departing from England, not in my lifetime anyway no matter what Scotland and N Ireland do.0
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Tough on antisemitism, tough on the causes of antisemitism....
A Labour activist suspended over allegations of antisemitism has been appointed to the board of a left-wing group whose president is John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor.
Jackie Walker was suspended by the party after she claimed that Jews were the “chief financiers” of the slave trade.
At the weekend she was elected to the board of the Labour Representation Committee (LRC). Mr McDonnell was re-elected as the body’s president. The group’s website also says that it carried a motion against Labour’s adoption of the International Holocaust Remembrance Association (IHRA) definition of antisemitism.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/leftwingers-appoint-jackie-walker-activist-suspended-over-antisemitism-claims-m0q3kpkh20 -
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Late and disorganised for the new thread just like Chris Grayling.0
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Personally I struggle to see what benefit we get by hanging onto Northern Ireland, which requires a significant public subsidy. Let's fund the NHS instead?0
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If we had parliamentarians who could put a case as objectively and cogently as your posts yesterday ms cyclefree we would not be in the appalling position we now find ourselves.Cyclefree said:If only one could have confidence that our Parliamentarians are capable of rising to the occasion.
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I don't see any that are anything like as troublesome.RobD said:
If being a net benefit is a requirement of being part of the U.K. there are many places that can be ditched.IanB2 said:Personally I struggle to see what benefit we get by hanging onto Northern Ireland, which requires a significant public subsidy. Let's fund the NHS instead?
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Ah, so we ditch them because they are a bit of a bother? Despite them wanting to remain in the U.K.?IanB2 said:
I don't see any that are anything like as troublesome.RobD said:
If being a net benefit is a requirement of being part of the U.K. there are many places that can be ditched.IanB2 said:Personally I struggle to see what benefit we get by hanging onto Northern Ireland, which requires a significant public subsidy. Let's fund the NHS instead?
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Well the Little Englanders (including the usual suspects on here) will be delighted to have destroyed the country. And when Wales rejoins the EU I shall certainly look forward to getting my EU citizenship back.0
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I'm quite happy to see Northern Ireland reunify with the Republic of Ireland, but I do hope that my family don't follow your reasoning when I am old and decrepit and providing little benefit to them.IanB2 said:Personally I struggle to see what benefit we get by hanging onto Northern Ireland, which requires a significant public subsidy. Let's fund the NHS instead?
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Incidentally, re the discussion on the IS girl (fpt), there are a lot of people assuming that she was brainwashed. Maybe. But it is just as likely that she chose to do what she did and has not been brainwashed at all.
At the time the father of one of the three girls was paraded all over the TV and in front of a Parliamentary committee wailing about how he could not possibly understand how his little girl could do such a thing. It then turned out that the father had attended various marches and rallies organised by jihadists and extremist speakers. In short, the innocent daughter learnt her extremism from her father who had, at best, dissembled about his responsibility for his daughter's actions.
That bit was not as widely canvassed all over the TV of course.
It would be nice to think that the only reason why people do these horrible things is because they have been brainwashed. Ergo they cannot be responsible. So we must treat them as a victim without more inquiry. A more realistic and sceptical approach would realise that there are some (maybe the majority) who do it because they believe that this is their religious duty and that it makes sense to them, even if it does not to us. Believing something we find inexplicable and acting on that belief does not mean that a person should be excused the consequences of their actions.
And, frankly, given the risks that the IS ideology still poses - even as its Caliphate vanishes - our politicians should be considering the security of people here before worrying about a jihadist sitting in a Syrian camp.0 -
Agree there will be a "cards up in the air" moment on the Union if Brexit is at all messy.
Disagree that Wales will feature strongly in that. They barely scraped enough votes together for what was then a slightly souped-up county council, there's no massive difference of opinion on Brexit compared to England, and the ties to the motherland are stronger0 -
Grayling would give a contract to a blogger with no blog and pay a consultant £500,000 to read the non-existent blog posts.FrancisUrquhart said:Late and disorganised for the new thread just like Chris Grayling.
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I would be very happy to see both unification in Ireland and independence for Scotland. If Brexit does bring these about then for me it would be a bonus. I doubt Wales would make any move for separation given they voted in favour of Brexit
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Interesting thread from Theo Bertram:
https://twitter.com/theobertram/status/10960712680408719370 -
Article 13. Apparently the text has been revised to make it even worse.
https://twitter.com/carryonmyflower/status/10957876486129950730 -
Great plastic cake jibe at Labour from Grieve.0
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I will happily accept the reader job, where do I apply?SandyRentool said:
Grayling would give a contract to a blogger with no blog and pay a consultant £500,000 to read the non-existent blog posts.FrancisUrquhart said:Late and disorganised for the new thread just like Chris Grayling.
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The EU just want control over everything.Morris_Dancer said:Article 13. Apparently the text has been revised to make it even worse.
https://twitter.com/carryonmyflower/status/10957876486129950730 -
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:Incidentally, re the discussion on the IS girl (fpt), there are a lot of people assuming that she was brainwashed. Maybe. But it is just as likely that she chose to do what she did and has not been brainwashed at all.
At the time the father of one of the three girls was paraded all over the TV and in front of a Parliamentary committee wailing about how he could not possibly understand how his little girl could do such a thing. It then turned out that the father had attended various marches and rallies organised by jihadists and extremist speakers. In short, the innocent daughter learnt her extremism from her father who had, at best, dissembled about his responsibility for his daughter's actions.
Q
That bit was not as widely canvassed all over the TV of course.
It would be nice to think that the only reason why people do these horrible things is because they have been brainwashed. Ergo they cannot be responsible. So we must treat them as a victim without more inquiry. A more realistic and sceptical approach would realise that there are some (maybe the majority) who do it because they believe that this is their religious duty and that it makes sense to them, even if it does not to us. Believing something we find inexplicable and acting on that belief does not mean that a person should be excused the consequences of their actions.
And, frankly, given the risks that the IS ideology still poses - even as its Caliphate vanishes - our politicians should be considering the security of people here before worrying about a jihadist sitting in a Syrian camp.
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.0 -
Grieve threatening to withdraw all support from the government.0
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Having lost our voice in Brussels, I am not at all sure that Scotland's position improves by losing our voice in London. Meanwhile the right wing nutters who think that doing Putin's will and ending the United Kingdom is a good thing should be locked up for their own protection.0
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Last September’s version of Article 13 excluded small businesses, but that’s no longer the case. If a service is publicly available for less than three years, with fewer than five million unique visitors per month, and an annual turnover of less than €10 million, only then it is excluded.Morris_Dancer said:Article 13. Apparently the text has been revised to make it even worse.
https://twitter.com/carryonmyflower/status/10957876486129950730 -
Yes, but does she believe in a hard or soft Brexit? Where does she stand on the customs union?Cyclefree said:Incidentally, re the discussion on the IS girl (fpt), there are a lot of people assuming that she was brainwashed. Maybe. But it is just as likely that she chose to do what she did and has not been brainwashed at all.
At the time the father of one of the three girls was paraded all over the TV and in front of a Parliamentary committee wailing about how he could not possibly understand how his little girl could do such a thing. It then turned out that the father had attended various marches and rallies organised by jihadists and extremist speakers. In short, the innocent daughter learnt her extremism from her father who had, at best, dissembled about his responsibility for his daughter's actions.
That bit was not as widely canvassed all over the TV of course.
It would be nice to think that the only reason why people do these horrible things is because they have been brainwashed. Ergo they cannot be responsible. So we must treat them as a victim without more inquiry. A more realistic and sceptical approach would realise that there are some (maybe the majority) who do it because they believe that this is their religious duty and that it makes sense to them, even if it does not to us. Believing something we find inexplicable and acting on that belief does not mean that a person should be excused the consequences of their actions.
And, frankly, given the risks that the IS ideology still poses - even as its Caliphate vanishes - our politicians should be considering the security of people here before worrying about a jihadist sitting in a Syrian camp.0 -
Brexit will cause daily angst to a considerable number of people in Northern Ireland, angst that could be solved by Irish unification (while the potential angst caused by that unification would be theoretical until it exists). It's not unreasonable for that to lead to a surge in support for unification.
I don't think the same situation applies to Scotland, much as the SNP would wish it to. While Irish unification would see Northern Ireland straight back into the EU, and the immediate end to border problems on the island of Ireland, Scottish independence would not do the same for Scotland - none of the problems created by Brexit would be automatically or immediately solved by Scotland's departure from the UK.
Plus, the experience of untangling Britain from a 40-something year old Union with Europe would seem to pale in comparison with untangling a 300-and-something old Union with England. Every day of border chaos in Ireland, would create a seed of doubt about the potential for border chaos near Carlisle, Berwick, etc.
Just as the mutual membership of the EU helped to usefully blur the boundaries on the island of Ireland to help make the Good Friday Agreement possible, so Brexit helps to make the prospect of Scottish independence look less possible.
So could we have the pre-1801 Union flag back?0 -
In their wanting to screw the big tech like google and amazon, they are going to end up screwing a load of minnows. It is like the digital VAT rules all over again, but worse.RobD said:
The EU just want control over everything.Morris_Dancer said:Article 13. Apparently the text has been revised to make it even worse.
https://twitter.com/carryonmyflower/status/10957876486129950730 -
I'd have (even) more sympathy with prosecuting the father, in the case Cyclefree eloquently outlines. I don't rule it out for her either. But if I was her lawyer, I'd be heading down some good-looking avenues for defence and mitigation.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:Incidentally, re the discussion on the IS girl (fpt), there are a lot of people assuming that she was brainwashed. Maybe. But it is just as likely that she chose to do what she did and has not been brainwashed at all.
At the time the father of one of the three girls was paraded all over the TV and in front of a Parliamentary committee wailing about how he could not possibly understand how his little girl could do such a thing. It then turned out that the father had attended various marches and rallies organised by jihadists and extremist speakers. In short, the innocent daughter learnt her extremism from her father who had, at best, dissembled about his responsibility for his daughter's actions.
Q
That bit was not as widely canvassed all over the TV of course.
It would be nice to think that the only reason why people do these horrible things is because they have been brainwashed. Ergo they cannot be responsible. So we must treat them as a victim without more inquiry. A more realistic and sceptical approach would realise that there are some (maybe the majority) who do it because they believe that this is their religious duty and that it makes sense to them, even if it does not to us. Believing something we find inexplicable and acting on that belief does not mean that a person should be excused the consequences of their actions.
And, frankly, given the risks that the IS ideology still poses - even as its Caliphate vanishes - our politicians should be considering the security of people here before worrying about a jihadist sitting in a Syrian camp.
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.0 -
I see the logic of a united Ireland. Perhaps Brexit makes it inevitable. Scotland must surely go too before too long and then - sure why not - Wales. All very well and democratic and brilliant yet as far as I'm concerned very sad too. Always sad when things that used to work no longer do. Look at me.
And I can't say I fancy the prospect politically - a nightmare of perpetual Tory government broken only by the occasional spell in power of Ingerland Forever (or whatever this new nationalist party of Nigel's ends up being called).0 -
If the Syrians are as inept at deporting foreign criminals as we are, it'll be years before we have to worry about that.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:Incidentally, re the discussion on the IS girl (fpt), there are a lot of people assuming that she was brainwashed. Maybe. But it is just as likely that she chose to do what she did and has not been brainwashed at all.
At the time the father of one of the three girls was paraded all over the TV and in front of a Parliamentary committee wailing about how he could not possibly understand how his little girl could do such a thing. It then turned out that the father had attended various marches and rallies organised by jihadists and extremist speakers. In short, the innocent daughter learnt her extremism from her father who had, at best, dissembled about his responsibility for his daughter's actions.
That bit was not as widely canvassed all over the TV of course.
It would be nice to think that the only reason why people do these horrible things is because they have been brainwashed. Ergo they cannot be responsible. So we must treat them as a victim without more inquiry. A more realistic and sceptical approach would realise that there are some (maybe the majority) who do it because they believe that this is their religious duty and that it makes sense to them, even if it does not to us. Believing something we find inexplicable and acting on that belief does not mean that a person should be excused the consequences of their actions.
And, frankly, given the risks that the IS ideology still poses - even as its Caliphate vanishes - our politicians should be considering the security of people here before worrying about a jihadist sitting in a Syrian camp.
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
The Syrians should investigate whether she has committed any crimes on their territory. And if she has, prosecute.
It is difficult for us to prosecute unless we can get the evidence which would be challenging without the co-operation of the Syrian authorities.
If she is sent here, I would arrest her pending an investigation into whether she has committed any crimes (as well as for her own safety and ours - she is unrepentant about her allegiance to IS) and take the child into care so that it can be brought up by a decent family. If she is released, she should be made to go into the Prevent programme and kept under close observation until we can be confident that she is no longer a danger.
But I would not strive to bring her back here.0 -
Technically there's nothing to stop a sovereign Scotland, England and Wales from concluding a defence treaty that essentially replicates the status quo.Cicero said:Having lost our voice in Brussels, I am not at all sure that Scotland's position improves by losing our voice in London. Meanwhile the right wing nutters who think that doing Putin's will and ending the United Kingdom is a good thing should be locked up for their own protection.
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Interesting that the evolution of the UK was to devolve more powers to the constituent nations, whereas the opposite is true for the EU.kinabalu said:I see the logic of a united Ireland. Perhaps Brexit makes it inevitable. Scotland must surely go too before too long and then - sure why not - Wales. All very well and democratic and brilliant yet as far as I'm concerned very sad too. Always sad when things that used to work no longer do. Look at me.
And I can't say I fancy the prospect politically - a nightmare of perpetual Tory government broken only by the occasional spell in power of Ingerland Forever (or whatever this new nationalist party of Nigel's ends up being called).0 -
Wales is going nowhere and neither is Scotlandkinabalu said:I see the logic of a united Ireland. Perhaps Brexit makes it inevitable. Scotland must surely go too before too long and then - sure why not - Wales. All very well and democratic and brilliant yet as far as I'm concerned very sad too. Always sad when things that used to work no longer do. Look at me.
And I can't say I fancy the prospect politically - a nightmare of perpetual Tory government broken only by the occasional spell in power of Ingerland Forever (or whatever this new nationalist party of Nigel's ends up being called).0 -
Evolution of the UK? Does your version of history only cover the period of your adult life?RobD said:
Interesting that the evolution of the UK was to devolve more powers to the constituent nations, whereas the opposite is true for the EU.kinabalu said:I see the logic of a united Ireland. Perhaps Brexit makes it inevitable. Scotland must surely go too before too long and then - sure why not - Wales. All very well and democratic and brilliant yet as far as I'm concerned very sad too. Always sad when things that used to work no longer do. Look at me.
And I can't say I fancy the prospect politically - a nightmare of perpetual Tory government broken only by the occasional spell in power of Ingerland Forever (or whatever this new nationalist party of Nigel's ends up being called).0 -
Recent evolutionwilliamglenn said:
Evolution of the UK? Does your version of history only cover the period of your adult life?RobD said:
Interesting that the evolution of the UK was to devolve more powers to the constituent nations, whereas the opposite is true for the EU.kinabalu said:I see the logic of a united Ireland. Perhaps Brexit makes it inevitable. Scotland must surely go too before too long and then - sure why not - Wales. All very well and democratic and brilliant yet as far as I'm concerned very sad too. Always sad when things that used to work no longer do. Look at me.
And I can't say I fancy the prospect politically - a nightmare of perpetual Tory government broken only by the occasional spell in power of Ingerland Forever (or whatever this new nationalist party of Nigel's ends up being called).
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The best mitigation is that she realises the error of her ways. She has rather shot that claim through both feet, though, with her interview. "Beheaded heads in bins don't faze me" - the level of moral depravity and/or exposure to evil needed to make such a statement is horrific.Harris_Tweed said:
I'd have (even) more sympathy with prosecuting the father, in the case Cyclefree eloquently outlines. I don't rule it out for her either. But if I was her lawyer, I'd be heading down some good-looking avenues for defence and mitigation.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:Incidentally, re the discussion on the IS girl (fpt), there are a lot of people assuming that she was brainwashed. Maybe. But it is just as likely that she chose to do what she did and has not been brainwashed at all.
At the time the father of one of the three girls was paraded all over the TV and in front of a Parliamentary committee wailing about how he could not possibly understand how his little girl could do such a thing. It then turned out that the father had attended various marches and rallies organised by jihadists and extremist speakers. In short, the innocent daughter learnt her extremism from her father who had, at best, dissembled about his responsibility for his daughter's actions.
Q
That bit was not as widely canvassed all over the TV of course.
It would be nice to think that the only reason why people do these horrible things is because they have been brainwashed. Ergo they cannot be responsible. So we must treat them as a victim without more inquiry. A more realistic and sceptical approach would realise that there are some (maybe the majority) who do it because they believe that this is their religious duty and that it makes sense to them, even if it does not to us. Believing something we find inexplicable and acting on that belief does not mean that a person should be excused the consequences of their actions.
And, frankly, given the risks that the IS ideology still poses - even as its Caliphate vanishes - our politicians should be considering the security of people here before worrying about a jihadist sitting in a Syrian camp.
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
I have much much more sympathy for the Yazidis and others who suffered at the hands of her and her kind, like last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nadia Murad. These are the people we should be listening to.0 -
Fwiw that rather reflects thoughts in my own household. We're for the PV but it's not a huge issue. Antisemitism is regarded as much more serious.Tissue_Price said:Interesting thread from Theo Bertram:
https://twitter.com/theobertram/status/10960712680408719370 -
** blushes **anothernick said:
If we had parliamentarians who could put a case as objectively and cogently as your posts yesterday ms cyclefree we would not be in the appalling position we now find ourselves.Cyclefree said:If only one could have confidence that our Parliamentarians are capable of rising to the occasion.
That is very kind, thank you.0 -
In addition to my previous doubts cast on Welsh independence, I think its viability as an independent state is also highly questionable (as NI's would clearly be if the question was of that flying solo).
I'm also not convinced a large proportion of north Walians see rule from Cardiff as at all preferable to that from London. There's quite a cultural divide and poor communications between the two.. and certainly in the north-east, the focus is towards Liverpool and Manchester more than Cardiff.
The strength of feeling, population size and unity of Scotland may push it to a different conclusion, but I don't see it with Wales.0 -
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No disagreement there!Cyclefree said:
The best mitigation is that she realises the error of her ways. She has rather shot that claim through both feet, though, with her interview. "Beheaded heads in bins don't faze me" - the level of moral depravity and/or exposure to evil needed to make such a statement is horrific.Harris_Tweed said:
I'd have (even) more sympathy with prosecuting the father, in the case Cyclefree eloquently outlines. I don't rule it out for her either. But if I was her lawyer, I'd be heading down some good-looking avenues for defence and mitigation.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:Incidentally, re the discussion on the IS girl (fpt), there are a lot of people assuming that she was brainwashed. Maybe. But it is just as likely that she chose to do what she did and has not been brainwashed at all.
At the time the father of one of the three girls was paraded all over the TV and in front of a Parliamentary committee wailing about how he could not possibly understand how his little girl could do such a thing. It then turned out that the father had attended various marches and rallies organised by jihadists and extremist speakers. In short, the innocent daughter learnt her extremism from her father who had, at best, dissembled about his responsibility for his daughter's actions.
Q
That bit was not as widely canvassed all over the TV of course.
It would be nice to think that the only reason why people do these horrible things is because they have been brainwashed. Ergo they cannot be responsible. So we must treat them as a victim without more inquiry. A more realistic and sceptical approach would realise that there are some (maybe the majority) who do it because they believe that this is their religious duty and that it makes sense to them, even if it does not to us. Believing something we find inexplicable and acting on that belief does not mean that a person should be excused the consequences of their actions.
And, frankly, given the risks that the IS ideology still poses - even as its Caliphate vanishes - our politicians should be considering the security of people here before worrying about a jihadist sitting in a Syrian camp.
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
I have much much more sympathy for the Yazidis and others who suffered at the hands of her and her kind, like last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nadia Murad. These are the people we should be listening to.0 -
Sub-sample klaxon!Tissue_Price said:Interesting thread from Theo Bertram:
https://twitter.com/theobertram/status/1096071268040871937
It's the difference between 10% and 11% of 45% of 439 - so that's a difference of 2 [weighted] people [well, 1.98, but I rounded up].
Plus the People's Vote reason is just one of a number of possible Brexit-related reasons, some of which might be considered to include not supporting a People's Vote, but being more general and encompassing uselessness more generally (though that also applies to the antisemitism option also).
There's insufficient evidence for the conclusion drawn - though the result is striking nevertheless.0 -
That would require those 50 to Get. Their. Shit. Together.Scott_P said:
I would have more respect for a grouping of MPs whose basic tenet was "Fuck off with your Brexit. Not gonna happen on my watch." Those dancing around claiming to "honour the vote" whilst doing everything to block it? Arseholes all.0 -
The only companies that will be able to comply with such rules are the web giants. It will be a barrier to growth for all the hypothetical EU alternatives to the US web giants that would exist if it wasn't for X. Where X is whatever the EU says is the cause of European businesses failing to compete with their US rivals this week.FrancisUrquhart said:
In their wanting to screw the big tech like google and amazon, they are going to end up screwing a load of minnows. It is like the digital VAT rules all over again, but worse.RobD said:
The EU just want control over everything.Morris_Dancer said:Article 13. Apparently the text has been revised to make it even worse.
https://twitter.com/carryonmyflower/status/10957876486129950730 -
It's so corrosive to Labours USP and their positioning as the antidote to the heartless, racist, Tories. If only the significant majority of decent Labour MPs would stand up and be counted on this, instead of the endless tutting and eye-rolling and lily-livered self-interest.Peter_the_Punter said:
Fwiw that rather reflects thoughts in my own household. We're for the PV but it's not a huge issue. Antisemitism is regarded as much more serious.Tissue_Price said:Interesting thread from Theo Bertram:
https://twitter.com/theobertram/status/10960712680408719370 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
I've just had the monthly 'report' sent out by the local MP, Priti Patel, and I quote
'Priti will continue to work with colleagues and the Government to seek revisions to the Withdrawal Agreement as well as pressing to ensure that this country is fully prepared to leave the EU on 29 March 2019 under any circumstance.'
Else where she says she is 'working for Witham'
How a Hard Brexit in about six weeks time is in our interests is a complete mystery to me. However, perhaps colleagues can explain.0 -
Yes, my time in South Wales rather brought that home to me. I just don't see it becoming independent any time soon. It voted Leave, which would make it more sympatico with most of the UK outside the metropolitan areas.Harris_Tweed said:In addition to my previous doubts cast on Welsh independence, I think its viability as an independent state is also highly questionable (as NI's would clearly be if the question was of that flying solo).
I'm also not convinced a large proportion of north Walians see rule from Cardiff as at all preferable to that from London. There's quite a cultural divide and poor communications between the two.. and certainly in the north-east, the focus is towards Liverpool and Manchester more than Cardiff.
The strength of feeling, population size and unity of Scotland may push it to a different conclusion, but I don't see it with Wales.
NI would be a bit of a hospital pass for the Republic. Should the NI vote for it, the Republic would find it difficult to say no, but the financial and other costs would be huge.
Scotland probably could and should go for independence if it can join the EU as a consequence.0 -
Alternatively, what has such a young girl been exposed to that the sight of a wheelie bin full of decapitated heads doesn't cause a reaction. What appalling level of desensitisation must she have endured. Two dead children and 9-months pregnant at 19. Would the same lack of sympathy be applied to former child soldiers from the DRC?Harris_Tweed said:
No disagreement there!Cyclefree said:
The best mitigation is that she realises the error of her ways. She has rather shot that claim through both feet, though, with her interview. "Beheaded heads in bins don't faze me" - the level of moral depravity and/or exposure to evil needed to make such a statement is horrific.Harris_Tweed said:
I'd have (even) more sympathy with prosecuting the father, in the case Cyclefree eloquently outlines. I don't rule it out for her either. But if I was her lawyer, I'd be heading down some good-looking avenues for defence and mitigation.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:*snip as too long for Vanilla*
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
I have much much more sympathy for the Yazidis and others who suffered at the hands of her and her kind, like last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nadia Murad. These are the people we should be listening to.0 -
This will also not just affect EU companies / citizens. It will also screw loads of content creators from around the world who use the big tech platforms to publish their work. When rules like this come in YouTube etc will take a "safety first" approach and so loads of people will find demonetisation of their work.glw said:
The only companies that will be able to comply with such rules are the web giants. It will be a barrier to growth for all the hypothetical EU alternatives to the US web giants that would exist if it wasn't for X. Where X is whatever the EU says is the cause of European businesses failing to compete with their US rivals this week.FrancisUrquhart said:
In their wanting to screw the big tech like google and amazon, they are going to end up screwing a load of minnows. It is like the digital VAT rules all over again, but worse.RobD said:
The EU just want control over everything.Morris_Dancer said:Article 13. Apparently the text has been revised to make it even worse.
https://twitter.com/carryonmyflower/status/10957876486129950730 -
What's really going to be interesting is when London splits off from England 0
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I hope you've subscribed to every 9 year old's favourite Youtuber ^_~FrancisUrquhart said:
This will also not just affect EU companies / citizens. It will also screw loads of content creators from around the world who use the big tech platforms to publish their work. When rules like this come in YouTube etc will take a "safety first" approach and so loads of people will find demonetisation of their work.glw said:
The only companies that will be able to comply with such rules are the web giants. It will be a barrier to growth for all the hypothetical EU alternatives to the US web giants that would exist if it wasn't for X. Where X is whatever the EU says is the cause of European businesses failing to compete with their US rivals this week.FrancisUrquhart said:
In their wanting to screw the big tech like google and amazon, they are going to end up screwing a load of minnows. It is like the digital VAT rules all over again, but worse.RobD said:
The EU just want control over everything.Morris_Dancer said:Article 13. Apparently the text has been revised to make it even worse.
https://twitter.com/carryonmyflower/status/10957876486129950730 -
Currently our only voice in London seems to be Ruthie (I won't insult anyone's intelligence by including David Mundell) saying 'I agree with Theresa'. Not sure that would be a tremendous loss.Cicero said:Having lost our voice in Brussels, I am not at all sure that Scotland's position improves by losing our voice in London. Meanwhile the right wing nutters who think that doing Putin's will and ending the United Kingdom is a good thing should be locked up for their own protection.
0 -
Certainly agree about Wales. E & W is always and forever and we don't need Luther Vandross to tell us so.Big_G_NorthWales said:Wales is going nowhere and neither is Scotland
Scotland, though, is far less certain. 55/45 last time - not exactly a landslide - and with Brexit fallout so unpredictable and potentially turbulent, it would not be a massive surprise if they opt for Indy at some point in the next 10 years or so.0 -
Possibly. But there are two differences: (1) the children were forced into the DRC. She was not forced into IS. (2) There is a strong possibility that it was her own family and friends who were responsible for her decision to join IS and that the level of desensitisation - or hatred for anyone deemed to be "an enemy of Islam" - needed for that decision had already happened long before she'd seen any mutilated bodies.Anorak said:
Alternatively, what has such a young girl been exposed to that the sight of a wheelie bin full of decapitated heads doesn't cause a reaction. What appalling level of desensitisation must she have endured. Two dead children and 9-months pregnant at 19. Would the same lack of sympathy be applied to former child soldiers from the DRC?Harris_Tweed said:
No disagreement there!Cyclefree said:
The best mitigation is that she realises the error of her ways. She has rather shot that claim through both feet, though, with her interview. "Beheaded heads in bins don't faze me" - the level of moral depravity and/or exposure to evil needed to make such a statement is horrific.Harris_Tweed said:
I'd have (even) more sympathy with prosecuting the father, in the case Cyclefree eloquently outlines. I don't rule it out for her either. But if I was her lawyer, I'd be heading down some good-looking avenues for defence and mitigation.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:*snip as too long for Vanilla*
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
I have much much more sympathy for the Yazidis and others who suffered at the hands of her and her kind, like last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nadia Murad. These are the people we should be listening to.
I have sympathy for real victims - the Yazidi women subjected to the most appalling torture and rape and brutality and death, the Christian communities assaulted by IS, the innocent Syrians and Iraqis and Kurds subjected to their brutality. Those who made a conscious decision to choose evil from the comfort of their freedoms in a civilised country I have very little sympathy for indeed.0 -
Mr. D, excepting England, of course, where the idea of a Parliament is not even a whisper on the political agenda.
Miss Cyclefree, quite.0 -
Agree. I seem to recall, to be fair that her family were worried about her; was it not one of her group that a father put his life in hazard searching in Syria for?Cyclefree said:
Possibly. But there are two differences: (1) the children were forced into the DRC. She was not forced into IS. (2) There is a strong possibility that it was her own family and friends who were responsible for her decision to join IS and that the level of desensitisation - or hatred for anyone deemed to be "an enemy of Islam" - needed for that decision had already happened long before she'd seen any mutilated bodies.Anorak said:
Alternatively, what has such a young girl been exposed to that the sight of a wheelie bin full of decapitated heads doesn't cause a reaction. What appalling level of desensitisation must she have endured. Two dead children and 9-months pregnant at 19. Would the same lack of sympathy be applied to former child soldiers from the DRC?Harris_Tweed said:
No disagreement there!Cyclefree said:
The best mitigation is that she realises the error of her ways. She has rather shot that claim through both feet, though, with her interview. "Beheaded heads in bins don't faze me" - the level of moral depravity and/or exposure to evil needed to make such a statement is horrific.Harris_Tweed said:
I'd have (even) more sympathy with prosecuting the father, in the case Cyclefree eloquently outlines. I don't rule it out for her either. But if I was her lawyer, I'd be heading down some good-looking avenues for defence and mitigation.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:*snip as too long for Vanilla*
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
I have much much more sympathy for the Yazidis and others who suffered at the hands of her and her kind, like last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nadia Murad. These are the people we should be listening to.
I have sympathy for real victims - the Yazidi women subjected to the most appalling torture and rape and brutality and death, the Christian communities assaulted by IS, the innocent Syrians and Iraqis and Kurds subjected to their brutality. Those who made a conscious decision to choose evil from the comfort of their freedoms in a civilised country I have very little sympathy for indeed.0 -
Yorkshire made a pitch for its own devolution recently. There is still hope.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. D, excepting England, of course, where the idea of a Parliament is not even a whisper on the political agenda.
0 -
Yes. Opposite directions of travel from start points at opposite ends of the spectrum. One starting from devolved and centralizing, the other starting from centralized and devolving. Perhaps they will meet in the middle.RobD said:Interesting that the evolution of the UK was to devolve more powers to the constituent nations, whereas the opposite is true for the EU.
0 -
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And London's water costs £10 a litre.....CatMan said:What's really going to be interesting is when London splits off from England
And don't get me started on the cost of their electricity. Or the landfill costs for their rubbish. And as for the daily transit tolls, to commute back out of the M25 every night...0 -
Mr. Me, a Yorkshire-wide mayor is nowhere near the same thing.
It's like asking for a chocolate cake and being given a single M&M.0 -
Those DRC child soldiers were essentially enslaved. They did not go choose to the DRC from say Egypt.....Anorak said:
Alternatively, what has such a young girl been exposed to that the sight of a wheelie bin full of decapitated heads doesn't cause a reaction. What appalling level of desensitisation must she have endured. Two dead children and 9-months pregnant at 19. Would the same lack of sympathy be applied to former child soldiers from the DRC?Harris_Tweed said:
No disagreement there!Cyclefree said:
The best mitigation is that she realises the error of her ways. She has rather shot that claim through both feet, though, with her interview. "Beheaded heads in bins don't faze me" - the level of moral depravity and/or exposure to evil needed to make such a statement is horrific.Harris_Tweed said:
I'd have (even) more sympathy with prosecuting the father, in the case Cyclefree eloquently outlines. I don't rule it out for her either. But if I was her lawyer, I'd be heading down some good-looking avenues for defence and mitigation.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:*snip as too long for Vanilla*
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
I have much much more sympathy for the Yazidis and others who suffered at the hands of her and her kind, like last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nadia Murad. These are the people we should be listening to.0 -
But leaving aside whether we have warm feelings towards the girl (I doubt that many do) what are you suggesting the UK government position ought to be on the matter of her returning here?Cyclefree said:The best mitigation is that she realises the error of her ways. She has rather shot that claim through both feet, though, with her interview. "Beheaded heads in bins don't faze me" - the level of moral depravity and/or exposure to evil needed to make such a statement is horrific.
I have much much more sympathy for the Yazidis and others who suffered at the hands of her and her kind, like last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nadia Murad. These are the people we should be listening to.0 -
OldKingCole said:
I don't recall that. There was a father of a girl in Sweden who wrote eloquently about his search for his daughter who had gone to Syria.Cyclefree said:
Agree. I seem to recall, to be fair that her family were worried about her; was it not one of her group that a father put his life in hazard searching in Syria for?Anorak said:
Possibly. But there are two differences: (1) the children were forced into the DRC. She was not forced into IS. (2) There is a strong possibility that it was her own family and friends who were responsible for her decision to join IS and that the level of desensitisation - or hatred for anyone deemed to be "an enemy of Islam" - needed for that decision had already happened long before she'd seen any mutilated bodies.Harris_Tweed said:
Alternatively, what has such a young girl been exposed to that the sight of a wheelie bin full of decapitated heads doesn't cause a reaction. What appalling level of desensitisation must she have endured. Two dead children and 9-months pregnant at 19. Would the same lack of sympathy be applied to former child soldiers from the DRC?Cyclefree said:
No disagreement there!Harris_Tweed said:
I have sympathy for real victims - the Yazidi women subjected to the most appalling torture and rape and brutality and death, the Christian communities assaulted by IS, the innocent Syrians and Iraqis and Kurds subjected to their brutality. Those who made a conscious decision to choose evil from the comfort of their freedoms in a civilised country I have very little sympathy for indeed.
Today - as expected - the father of one of the other girls who went with this girl has popped up saying she should be allowed to return and have her baby in peace.
Abase Hussen: he took his daughter to violent extremist rallies held by banned Islamist groups from the age of 13 onwards then blatantly lied to Parliament about his activities and the likely effect on his daughter. And blamed the police, the school, the social services - everyone but himself - for what happened.
We ought to be a damn sight more clear headed about how and why this "grooming" and "brainwashing" happens.0 -
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She. Was. A. Child.Cyclefree said:
Possibly. But there are two differences: (1) the children were forced into the DRC. She was not forced into IS. (2) There is a strong possibility that it was her own family and friends who were responsible for her decision to join IS and that the level of desensitisation - or hatred for anyone deemed to be "an enemy of Islam" - needed for that decision had already happened long before she'd seen any mutilated bodies.Anorak said:
Alternatively, what has such a young girl been exposed to that the sight of a wheelie bin full of decapitated heads doesn't cause a reaction. What appalling level of desensitisation must she have endured. Two dead children and 9-months pregnant at 19. Would the same lack of sympathy be applied to former child soldiers from the DRC?Harris_Tweed said:
No disagreement there!Cyclefree said:
The best mitigation is that she realises the error of her ways. She has rather shot that claim through both feet, though, with her interview. "Beheaded heads in bins don't faze me" - the level of moral depravity and/or exposure to evil needed to make such a statement is horrific.Harris_Tweed said:
I have much much more sympathy for the Yazidis and others who suffered at the hands of her and her kind, like last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nadia Murad. These are the people we should be listening to.
I have sympathy for real victims - the Yazidi women subjected to the most appalling torture and rape and brutality and death, the Christian communities assaulted by IS, the innocent Syrians and Iraqis and Kurds subjected to their brutality. Those who made a conscious decision to choose evil from the comfort of their freedoms in a civilised country I have very little sympathy for indeed.
I'm not absolving her of blame for crimes she may have committed in Syria. There is no suggestion of an amnesty.
She does, however, remain a British citizen and possible victim in all of this, to one degree or another. Your approach to a heavily pregnant 19 year old seems to be "let her rot over there", which is frankly heartless and not a little disturbing. Especially after conceding she wasn't the one responsible for the decision to go in the first place.0 -
I put it down thread at 4:00 pm.kinabalu said:
But leaving aside whether we have warm feelings towards the girl (I doubt that many do) what are you suggesting the UK government position ought to be on the matter of her returning here?Cyclefree said:The best mitigation is that she realises the error of her ways. She has rather shot that claim through both feet, though, with her interview. "Beheaded heads in bins don't faze me" - the level of moral depravity and/or exposure to evil needed to make such a statement is horrific.
I have much much more sympathy for the Yazidis and others who suffered at the hands of her and her kind, like last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nadia Murad. These are the people we should be listening to.
Essentially deal with her if she ends up here but make no effort to bring her back.0 -
I'm glad that was the basis upon which Grieve sought re-election in 2017. As an independent, entirely distancing himself from the Conservative Manifesto pledge to implement Brexit.Sean_F said:
Apparently, he thinks it is a "sacred duty" to stop Brexit.IanB2 said:Grieve threatening to withdraw all support from the government.
Oh. He didn't? You sure?0 -
I think that, as many others have said, there will be a period of what Geologists refer to as isostatic readjustment in political terms. The loss of left wing weight in Scotland will cause a rebalancing in England such that the overall balance will return to equilibrium.kinabalu said:I see the logic of a united Ireland. Perhaps Brexit makes it inevitable. Scotland must surely go too before too long and then - sure why not - Wales. All very well and democratic and brilliant yet as far as I'm concerned very sad too. Always sad when things that used to work no longer do. Look at me.
And I can't say I fancy the prospect politically - a nightmare of perpetual Tory government broken only by the occasional spell in power of Ingerland Forever (or whatever this new nationalist party of Nigel's ends up being called).0 -
I'm sure the negotiations with rUK will go swimmingly after we lay a cable to the continent and open a desalination plant. And you'll be paying us for the rubbish in the hope of finding a half-eaten avocado.MarqueeMark said:
And London's water costs £10 a litre.....CatMan said:What's really going to be interesting is when London splits off from England
And don't get me started on the cost of their electricity. Or the landfill costs for their rubbish. And as for the daily transit tolls, to commute back out of the M25 every night...
0 -
History suggests that is a simplistic analysis. More likely, the two main parties (assuming they survive the current debacle) will shift (or realign) such that the two-party system continues.Pulpstar said:
An English Tory majority forever beckons.CatMan said:What's really going to be interesting is when London splits off from England
0 -
And if the ERG force a VONC - and vote out the Govt before that? So that the Brexit deadline occurs during the election camapaign - and there has been no meaningful vote by that point? That would be fun. Does May have the power to extend Article 50 without Parliamentary approval?Scott_P said:0 -
Are you refering to a certain gentleman of Swedish extraction?Pulpstar said:
I hope you've subscribed to every 9 year old's favourite Youtuber ^_~FrancisUrquhart said:
This will also not just affect EU companies / citizens. It will also screw loads of content creators from around the world who use the big tech platforms to publish their work. When rules like this come in YouTube etc will take a "safety first" approach and so loads of people will find demonetisation of their work.glw said:
The only companies that will be able to comply with such rules are the web giants. It will be a barrier to growth for all the hypothetical EU alternatives to the US web giants that would exist if it wasn't for X. Where X is whatever the EU says is the cause of European businesses failing to compete with their US rivals this week.FrancisUrquhart said:
In their wanting to screw the big tech like google and amazon, they are going to end up screwing a load of minnows. It is like the digital VAT rules all over again, but worse.RobD said:
The EU just want control over everything.Morris_Dancer said:Article 13. Apparently the text has been revised to make it even worse.
https://twitter.com/carryonmyflower/status/10957876486129950730 -
Anorak said:
The curse of the trim. I said that, trying to respond to Mr A's point.Cyclefree said:
She. Was. A. Child.Anorak said:
Possibly. But there are two differences: (1) the children were forced into the DRC. She was not forced into IS. (2) There is a strong possibility that it was her own family and friends who were responsible for her decision to join IS and that the level of desensitisation - or hatred for anyone deemed to be "an enemy of Islam" - needed for that decision had already happened long before she'd seen any mutilated bodies.Harris_Tweed said:Cyclefree said:
The best mitigation is that she realises the error of her ways. She has rather shot that claim through both feet, though, with her interview. "Beheaded heads in bins don't faze me" - the level of moral depravity and/or exposure to evil needed to make such a statement is horrific.Harris_Tweed said:
I have much much more sympathy for the Yazidis and others who suffered at the hands of her and her kind, like last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nadia Murad. These are the people we should be listening to.
I have sympathy for real victims - the Yazidi women subjected to the most appalling torture and rape and brutality and death, the Christian communities assaulted by IS, the innocent Syrians and Iraqis and Kurds subjected to their brutality. Those who made a conscious decision to choose evil from the comfort of their freedoms in a civilised country I have very little sympathy for indeed.
I'm not absolving her of blame for crimes she may have committed in Syria. There is no suggestion of an amnesty.
She does, however, remain a British citizen and possible victim in all of this, to one degree or another. Your approach to a heavily pregnant 19 year old seems to be "let her rot over there", which is frankly heartless and not a little disturbing. Especially after conceding she wasn't the one responsible for the decision to go in the first place.
While I have some sympathy for the fact that she is pregnant, what view would we take of a 19 year old man who had gone to Syria at 15 and taken up arms?
Ms Cyclefree I'm grateful for your information upthread on her parents activity before he 'flight'.0 -
Agree, but that's pretty thin gruel to make up for the shattering of the UK.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think that, as many others have said, there will be a period of what Geologists refer to as isostatic readjustment in political terms. The loss of left wing weight in Scotland will cause a rebalancing in England such that the overall balance will return to equilibrium.kinabalu said:I see the logic of a united Ireland. Perhaps Brexit makes it inevitable. Scotland must surely go too before too long and then - sure why not - Wales. All very well and democratic and brilliant yet as far as I'm concerned very sad too. Always sad when things that used to work no longer do. Look at me.
And I can't say I fancy the prospect politically - a nightmare of perpetual Tory government broken only by the occasional spell in power of Ingerland Forever (or whatever this new nationalist party of Nigel's ends up being called).0 -
Or, of course, having inflicted such a calamity on our country, the Tories get thrown out of office at least once, and the incoming government has the good sense to reform the voting and political system ushering in more mature politics.IanB2 said:
History suggests that is a simplistic analysis. More likely, the two main parties (assuming they survive the current debacle) will shift (or realign) such that the two-party system continues.Pulpstar said:
An English Tory majority forever beckons.CatMan said:What's really going to be interesting is when London splits off from England
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Any Tory MP who supported a VONC would face deselection.MarqueeMark said:
And if the ERG force a VONC - and vote out the Govt before that? So that the Brexit deadline occurs during the election camapaign - and there has been no meaningful vote by that point? That would be fun. Does May have the power to extend Article 50 without Parliamentary approval?Scott_P said:0 -
Afternoon all
In London today for a Conference and walked round Parliament Square as the double decker "Leave" bus kept circling. Ah, the theatre. By the by, magical to walk down Horse Guards this morning - a part of London I don't often see but beautiful to see the Palace through the trees.
On topic, I won't die in a ditch for the Union unlike Theresa May. If the population of Ulster votes freely and fairly to secede and join the Irish Republic fine (ditto for Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, London or Surrey not that I expect any of them to join the Irish Republic (except perhaps Surrey)).
I suppose the thorny question (as it was before) is who gets to vote. Should the franchise be extended to Ulster-born people residing in the UK or even the Republic of Ireland and why stop there? I don't know.
Another one of life's conundrums seems to be what (if anything) will facilitate a Labour split. 248 Labour MPs voted against the WA in mid January but I suppose if some of them were to be no longer part of the Parliamentary Party that might change. I wonder if May is hoping for a Labour split (divide and conquer) or terrified (new Party sweeps ahead in polls, some Conservatives jump ship too). She seems to have her own issues with Mr Grieve.
Nearly 40 years on from the Limehouse Declaration and the launch of the SDP (what a mad time that was), could we be looking at something similar or very different? If they broke away now, would a new Party (along with the Brexit Party) seek to run candidates in local elections - would Labour Council groups split as well allowing for changes of control?
Back on topic, the question for me is whether agreement to a second independence referendum would be the price for SNP support for a minority Labour administration at Westminster?0 -
Will I have to apply for a residency permit?OblitusSumMe said:
Yorkshire made a pitch for its own devolution recently. There is still hope.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. D, excepting England, of course, where the idea of a Parliament is not even a whisper on the political agenda.
0 -
This 'Border Poll' which gets referred to, I have always assumed it means a vote of all adults across the island of Ireland, north and south, and then re-unification only follows if there is a majority in total AND a majority in NI. Have I got that wrong? Is it just a vote in the north?Peter_the_Punter said:NI would be a bit of a hospital pass for the Republic. Should the NI vote for it, the Republic would find it difficult to say no, but the financial and other costs would be huge
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No hope. Blocked by Brokenshire earlier this week.OblitusSumMe said:
Yorkshire made a pitch for its own devolution recently. There is still hope.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. D, excepting England, of course, where the idea of a Parliament is not even a whisper on the political agenda.
https://www.centreforcities.org/blog/four-mayors-good-too-many-wasted-years-bad/
The Government's preferred mayoralty devolution is for City Region majors, not one encompassing the whole of Yorkshire.0 -
Any idea how long it takes to build a desalination plant? And that power cable would still have to pass through rUK territory. And Tilbury Docks will be the point of arrival for your avocadoes....Anorak said:
I'm sure the negotiations with rUK will go swimmingly after we lay a cable to the continent and open a desalination plant. And you'll be paying us for the rubbish in the hope of finding a half-eaten avocado.MarqueeMark said:
And London's water costs £10 a litre.....CatMan said:What's really going to be interesting is when London splits off from England
And don't get me started on the cost of their electricity. Or the landfill costs for their rubbish. And as for the daily transit tolls, to commute back out of the M25 every night...
Although independent London's ten million people crammed into tiny, multiple occupancy dwellings, rip-off prices and with filth and crime and atrocious air quality on the streets - who in London will notice the difference?0 -
Why not? It is clearly working. It provides stable governments, an opposition government in waiting, excludes the lunatic fringes from Parliament, and ensures a strong majority for the Executive.Streeter said:
Hang on...0 -
Very unlikely that Labour would agree to that given the clear lack of appetite for it now in Scotland.Such a move would drive pro-Union Labour voters into voting Tory.stodge said:Afternoon all
In London today for a Conference and walked round Parliament Square as the double decker "Leave" bus kept circling. Ah, the theatre. By the by, magical to walk down Horse Guards this morning - a part of London I don't often see but beautiful to see the Palace through the trees.
On topic, I won't die in a ditch for the Union unlike Theresa May. If the population of Ulster votes freely and fairly to secede and join the Irish Republic fine (ditto for Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, London or Surrey not that I expect any of them to join the Irish Republic (except perhaps Surrey)).
I suppose the thorny question (as it was before) is who gets to vote. Should the franchise be extended to Ulster-born people residing in the UK or even the Republic of Ireland and why stop there? I don't know.
Another one of life's conundrums seems to be what (if anything) will facilitate a Labour split. 248 Labour MPs voted against the WA in mid January but I suppose if some of them were to be no longer part of the Parliamentary Party that might change. I wonder if May is hoping for a Labour split (divide and conquer) or terrified (new Party sweeps ahead in polls, some Conservatives jump ship too). She seems to have her own issues with Mr Grieve.
Nearly 40 years on from the Limehouse Declaration and the launch of the SDP (what a mad time that was), could we be looking at something similar or very different? If they broke away now, would a new Party (along with the Brexit Party) seek to run candidates in local elections - would Labour Council groups split as well allowing for changes of control?
Back on topic, the question for me is whether agreement to a second independence referendum would be the price for SNP support for a minority Labour administration at Westminster?0 -
The border poll would be a Northern Ireland vote, but for unification to occur it would require a change to the Irish constitution, which would be a vote for the Republic of Ireland.kinabalu said:
This 'Border Poll' which gets referred to, I have always assumed it means a vote of all adults across the island of Ireland, north and south, and then re-unification only follows if there is a majority in total AND a majority in NI. Have I got that wrong? Is it just a vote in the north?Peter_the_Punter said:NI would be a bit of a hospital pass for the Republic. Should the NI vote for it, the Republic would find it difficult to say no, but the financial and other costs would be huge
0 -
The lunatic fringe appears to be doing just fine under the current system.dixiedean said:
Why not? It is clearly working. It provides stable governments, an opposition government in waiting, excludes the lunatic fringes from Parliament, and ensures a strong majority for the Executive.Streeter said:
Hang on...0 -
But for them, it's an article of faith to ensure Brexit.....justin124 said:
Any Tory MP who supported a VONC would face deselection.MarqueeMark said:
And if the ERG force a VONC - and vote out the Govt before that? So that the Brexit deadline occurs during the election camapaign - and there has been no meaningful vote by that point? That would be fun. Does May have the power to extend Article 50 without Parliamentary approval?Scott_P said:0
