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Will that help? Can we turn the English back with stats?Dura_Ace said:
In terms of % of population the Irish Army is bigger than the British.Beverley_C said:
What? Both of them?Alanbrooke said:0 -
This.SeanT said:
During the financial crisis the Irish government had to submit its budget for approval by the Bundestag BEFORE it was seen by Irish MPs. You don’t get much more colonised than that.Nigel_Foremain said:
Agreed with all but the nonsense in the last bit about Ireland being a colony. They are no more a colony of the EU than we are of the United States. Rather Mark Francoisesque and grotesquely silly.SeanT said:
Hmm. You are still being too kind to the SNP. At the heart of Scottish nationalism is a burning hatred of the English, stemming from, and allied with, a deep inferiority complex vis-a-vis the Sassenachs, They have done well to build a facade of “civic nationalism” to disguise this, but it is still there, lurking. Down in the crypt.kinabalu said:
Not s to Mother?Nigel_Foremain said:I disagree. The SNP is not benign, though it likes to give the impression it is. It has some very sinister undertones that are ba cannot make this excuse. Scotland has been massively overrepresented in British government, and Scottish subjects were very strongly influential on the growth of the British Empire. Their victim status is contrived.
Irish nationalism has similar demons in its past, but they have been largely exorcised by independence, and more lately by prosperity, to the extent that Ireland is now content to be run as a colony of Berlin and Brussels, as long as the money keeps coming in. A flavoursome irony.
As a small member of the eurozone, Dublin is now completely subordinate to Brussels and Berlin. It has no real sovereignty, merely the simulacrum of sovereignty. If it ever tried to rebel, or leave, it would be treated like Greece. Moreover, it cannot ever leave. Leaving the eurozone is impossible. We’ve seen how difficult it is to Brexit, quitting the eurozone would be Brexit to the power of ten.
BTW the difficulty of Brexiting gives the lie to Remainer arguments that the UK was always sovereign, a free nation, able to leave any time, what’s the big fuss. As we now see, we gave away so much sovereignty, by stealth, quitting the EU was and is virtually impossible. British “sovereignty” was fast becoming a polite fiction.
We should have left before the Lisbon Treaty and its hideous Article 50, expressly designed to punish any seceding state. But we are where we are.0 -
Indeed...kinabalu said:
And probably with good reason if so.Nigelb said:It is remarkably like a mob prosecution.
Horses for courses.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/michael-cohen-subpoenaed-senate-intelligence-committee-n962311
...Davis also criticized the president and his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani for targeting Cohen's relatives in interviews.
“This is classic mob technique to send a signal to the individual who Mr. Trump has called a ‘rat’ for telling the truth," he said. "Now, that word ‘rat’ comes directly out of organized crime. It’s also a signal to other inmates in a potential prison situation."
“But the family of Michael Cohen has been called out by Donald Trump," Davis said. "Once again, he ducks or lies about what he knows he’s done, which is to attack a father-in-law and wife as a way of getting to Mr. Cohen, and that is called witness tampering, obstruction of justice.”...
...On Thursday, Davis called Giuliani "mentally unstable" and said he's "a prosecutor who would prosecute what he just did," referring to the claims Giuliani made on CNN. Davis declined to say if Cohen's family would pursue legal action against Giuliani but called on Congress to vote on a resolution of censure to reprimand Trump.
"You can go after Mr. Cohen, if that’s their design, because Mr. Cohen’s an adverse witness," Davis said. "What do his father-in-law and his wife have to do with anything — other than the crime of witness tampering, intimidation, and corrupt intent to try to deter Mr. Cohen from telling the truth? And I hope the Senate and the House, they can vote a resolution of censure, and Mr. Giuliani can be indicted and certainly criminally investigated for doing what he just did, that is prima facie a crime to threaten a witness before Congress."0 -
Until the next election....AndyJS said:How much longer can Dominic Grieve and Mark Francois remain in the same party?
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Mueller = Sam Waterson who plays Jack McCoy in Law & Order.Anorak said:
I'd give it 5 years max 'till they make an Oscar contender out of this. Hmm, who to play Mueller? Baldwin as Trump, natch.Tissue_Price said:
I agree, he (and his team) have been sensationally good at their jobs so far.AlastairMeeks said:Robert Mueller's investigation has been methodical and very disciplined. The absence of leaks is striking, as is the way in which he seems to be plucking pieces off the board one at a time, slowly circling in to the centre. At every stage he's underpromised and overdelivered. That in turn creates a virtuous circle as those potentially in line seek to make sure of their own position.
We don't know what he knows, but equally obviously neither do any of those on team Trump, and none of them trust each other to know what might be out there. The panic is palpable.0 -
Dura_Ace said:
In terms of % of population the Irish Army is bigger than the British.Beverley_C said:
What? Both of them?Alanbrooke said:
So what? This isn’t top trumps. The Irish Army is under a tenth of the size of the British army and far more poorly equipped.
This is Varadkar shitting himself with ever more outlandish claims as he belatedly realises that trying to bully the British to make himself look a big hard man back home might backfire drastically.0 -
Adonis intelligent!! Wow, that's some judgement you have.Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry, but I don't think the scales are quite as even as you would like. Whatever you might say about Adonis he is very intelligent. These idiots? I am actually beginning to feel sorry for the more thoughtful people who voted for Brexit...well only a bitSeanT said:
Another cretin. Jesus. For every crazed Remainer like A C Grayling or Adonis, there’s a frothing loon of a Leaver like Francois or S Jackson (ex of this parish)Scott_P said:
What the F has happened to us? We are a nation of donkeys led by maggots.0 -
You think Varadkar is going to want to face a general election, with a Hard Border being kinda policed by the Gardai/Army?TheScreamingEagles said:
I fear the EU/Ireland will blink first is the new German carmakers will ensure we get a good deal.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.0 -
My favourite example of that was when a regular nationalist poster on here - who’s all been Mr.Civic Nationalist in the past - managed to post a comment on here that got ‘blood’ and ‘soil’ into the same paragraph, seemingly without irony.SeanT said:
Hmm. You are still being too kind to the SNP. At the heart of Scottish nationalism is a burning hatred of the English, stemming from, and allied with, a deep inferiority complex vis-a-vis the Sassenachs, They have done well to build a facade of “civic nationalism” to disguise this, but it is still there, lurking. Down in the crypt.kinabalu said:
Not saying I have a particular soft spot for Scottish nationalism, and I will take on trust those comments about nastiness in the 1930s, I can believe it, and yes you are quite right that they were more partners in colonialism than victims of it, but - but but but - there is no way in my mind that a cause such as that, or say Catalonia, or the Kurds, this type of 'nationalism' ought to be viewed in the same light as Front National, BNP, AfD, Golden Dawn, these sorts of grisly and wholly reprehensible movements. I mean, Nicola Sturgeon or Martin Webster? Who are you going to take home to Mother?Nigel_Foremain said:I disagree. The SNP is not benign, though it likes to give the impression it is. It has some very sinister undertones that are based on classical hatred themes that are so typical of nationalism and where it crosses into fascism. It also has a pretty unpleasant history with strong links to European fascism in the 30s. The bile that is spewed by the couple of SNP supporters that come on here if anyone criticises them is indicative. Irish nationalism, while its violence is repugnant, is based on a genuine history of repression and underrepresentation. Scottish nationalism cannot make this excuse. Scotland has been massively overrepresented in British government, and Scottish subjects were very strongly influential on the growth of the British Empire. Their victim status is contrived.
Irish nationalism has similar demons in its past, but they have been largely exorcised by independence, and more lately by prosperity, to the extent that Ireland is now content to be run as a colony of Berlin and Brussels, as long as the money keeps coming in. A flavoursome irony.0 -
I believe Brexit will prove the better option for us as the EU continues to consolidate. English batting, unfortunately, is a step too far. Presumably Holder wants his 100 before he lets Roache loose. It will probably be the easiest one he will ever get.Anorak said:
Like with Brexit, you just have to believe.DavidL said:
A century? I think a cavalier 20 might be all that we can hope for.OblitusSumMe said:
Stubborn defiance in the face of overwhelming odds is supposed to be a defining part of the English national character. We'll get them in singles. With one arm tied behind our backs.DavidL said:There really ought to come a point when England can just surrender. This is torture and humiliation.
At the very least it would be nice to see one of the top six score an obdurate century in defeat.
Developing the right attitude in response to English cricketing defeats such as this builds the national character that would be able to look a no deal Brexit in the eye and say that we all needed to lose a bit of weight anyway. If there is panic-buying it will be because cricket has been behind the Sky paywall since 2005.0 -
On topic: FAA has suspended flights into and out of New York LaGuardia due to staff shortages.
Edit: Philadelphia and Newark airports too.0 -
Indeed. There will only be a deal if the EU agrees one. And the EU will only reopen negotiations if they are convinced that May can get a revised deal through parliament. And May will only be able to get a revised deal through parliament if she attracts a substantial number of Labour MPs in support. AndTheScreamingEagles said:
I fear the EU/Ireland will blink first is the new German carmakers will ensure we get a good deal.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
this will only happen if May backs down on her red lines, a customs union in particular. And this would split the Tories and May probably could not deliver on it anyway. So the chances of a revised deal are pretty slim IMO.0 -
What difficulty? We have a perfectly viable route to leaving. The document implementing the transition is all ready to sign, and has been since November. Parliament is sovereign, and so far has chosen not to ratify it, but that is a political choice.SeanT said:
...
BTW the difficulty of Brexiting gives the lie to Remainer arguments that the UK was always sovereign, a free nation, able to leave any time, what’s the big fuss. As we now see, we gave away so much sovereignty, by stealth, quitting the EU was and is virtually impossible. British “sovereignty” was fast becoming a polite fiction.
...0 -
Almost correct ... parliament has ALREADY ratified our exit route (No Deal).Richard_Nabavi said:
What difficulty? We have a perfectly viable route to leaving. The document implementing the transition is all ready to sign, and has been since November. Parliament is sovereign, and so far has chosen not to ratify it, but that is a political choice.SeanT said:
...
BTW the difficulty of Brexiting gives the lie to Remainer arguments that the UK was always sovereign, a free nation, able to leave any time, what’s the big fuss. As we now see, we gave away so much sovereignty, by stealth, quitting the EU was and is virtually impossible. British “sovereignty” was fast becoming a polite fiction.
...0 -
Why or is that just your own wishful thinking?SeanT said:rkrkrk said:
The EU or May might blink, but if everyone holds firm, I think we will some kind of Grieve amendment passing that takes the decision out of her hands and revokes Article 50. So I still think there won't be a No Deal exit.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
Revocation? Nah. It would be political suicide for any MP that voted for it.0 -
Well I am kind. It's why I'm always getting trampled on.SeanT said:Hmm. You are still being too kind to the SNP. At the heart of Scottish nationalism is a burning hatred of the English, stemming from, and allied with, a deep inferiority complex vis-a-vis the Sassenachs, They have done well to build a facade of “civic nationalism” to disguise this, but it is still there, lurking. Down in the crypt.
I'm sticking to the view that nationalism of the SNP variety is not in all fairness to be placed in the vicinity of AfD, BNP, #MAGA etc - this must surely be accepted by all people of sober disposition - but that point of yours about a burning antipathy towards the English? Hmm, maybe something in that.
I was in Scotland when Beckham missed that penalty in a WC match a few years ago - the embarrassing one where he slipped on his arse - and the yelps of delight, this incredible wall of noise all around the neighbourhood where I was - it was really something.
Oh and the match was NOT against Scotland - as I say it was the WC.0 -
My personal opinion is that if panic sets in, revocation will be done and the mess cleared up afterwards, but I feel "No Deal" may be the only practical method of burning this corrosive form of English Nationalism out of our politics.MikeSmithson said:
Why or is that just your own wishful thinking?SeanT said:rkrkrk said:
The EU or May might blink, but if everyone holds firm, I think we will some kind of Grieve amendment passing that takes the decision out of her hands and revokes Article 50. So I still think there won't be a No Deal exit.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
Revocation? Nah. It would be political suicide for any MP that voted for it.0 -
Just Brexit. Then get ourselves a PM with the spine to tell them to "piss off" on the bits we don't like. We'd have years to organise proper WTO and any other trade deals that way.SeanT said:Richard_Nabavi said:
What difficulty? We have a perfectly viable route to leaving. The document implementing the transition is all ready to sign, and has been since November. Parliament is sovereign, and so far has chosen not to ratify it, but that is a political choice.SeanT said:
...
BTW the difficulty of Brexiting gives the lie to Remainer arguments that the UK was always sovereign, a free nation, able to leave any time, what’s the big fuss. As we now see, we gave away so much sovereignty, by stealth, quitting the EU was and is virtually impossible. British “sovereignty” was fast becoming a polite fiction.
...
Perfectly viable??? This is the same Deal which has been denounced by the ex-head of MI6, no less, as a practically traitorous document which surrenders our military independence? This is the same Deal which potentially locks us into a Customs Union (but with no say in its rules) for the rest of recorded time?
That’s perfectly viable? Dear Richard, I hereby propose we should wed, I have a prenup ready to sign, don’t worry about the small print, dear. Xx
Business will depart? Not with our corporate tax rates. Read them, Brussels - and weep....0 -
Quitting the EU isn't "virtually impossible". It's quitting while attempting to retain some trappings of membership that's hard. If all the UK wants to do is quit all they have to do is wait until 30th March. That isn't even difficult never mind virtually impossible.SeanT said:
During the financial crisis the Irish government had to submit its budget for approval by the Bundestag BEFORE it was seen by Irish MPs. You don’t get much more colonised than that.Nigel_Foremain said:
Agreed with all but the nonsense in the last bit about Ireland being a colony. They are no more a colony of the EU than we are of the United States. Rather Mark Francoisesque and grotesquely silly.SeanT said:
Hmm. You are still being too kind to the SNP. At the heart of Scottish nationalism is a burning hatred of the English, stemming from, and allied with, a deep inferiority complex vis-a-vis the Sassenachs, They have done well to build a facade of “civic nationalism” to disguise this, but it is still there, lurking. Down in the crypt.kinabalu said:
Not s to Mother?Nigel_Foremain said:I disagree. The SNP is not benign, though it likes to give the impression it is. It has some very sinister undertones that are ba cannot make this excuse. Scotland has been massively overrepresented in British government, and Scottish subjects were very strongly influential on the growth of the British Empire. Their victim status is contrived.
Irish nationalism has similar demons in its past, but they have been largely exorcised by independence, and more lately by prosperity, to the extent that Ireland is now content to be run as a colony of Berlin and Brussels, as long as the money keeps coming in. A flavoursome irony.
As a small member of the eurozone, Dublin is now completely subordinate to Brussels and Berlin. It has no real sovereignty, merely the simulacrum of sovereignty. If it ever tried to rebel, or leave, it would be treated like Greece. Moreover, it cannot ever leave. Leaving the eurozone is impossible. We’ve seen how difficult it is to Brexit, quitting the eurozone would be Brexit to the power of ten.
BTW the difficulty of Brexiting gives the lie to Remainer arguments that the UK was always sovereign, a free nation, able to leave any time, what’s the big fuss. As we now see, we gave away so much sovereignty, by stealth, quitting the EU was and is virtually impossible. British “sovereignty” was fast becoming a polite fiction.
We should have left before the Lisbon Treaty and its hideous Article 50, expressly designed to punish any seceding state. But we are where we are.0 -
Mr. T, it doesn't lock us in for the rest of time. Only until the EU agrees to let us leave.
The barrier for leaving May's deal is substantially higher than it is for leaving the EU.
No deal isn't good (it'd be easier if the Government, particularly May/Hammond, had thought to prepare for it). May's deal isn't good. Remain isn't good.
All have very significant problems attached to them, whether economic or political. That said, I think the politicians blaming the electorate for voting to leave, when they themselves dragged the UK far closer to the EU than the electorate ever wanted, would be akin to Aron Ralston blaming his pen knife rather than the boulder for his pain.0 -
Yes that one. One ex-head of MI6 has some completely incoherent views on it, accusing it simultaneously of being too close to the EU and not close enough, and some idiots who haven't read it think we'd be locked into a customs union which would be superbly favourable to us. But it's perfectly viable, and there for the signing. Of course it's not as good as remaining in the EU on Cameron's renegotiated terms, or even without them, but don't blame me for that - I voted Remain. How did you vote?SeanT said:Richard_Nabavi said:
What difficulty? We have a perfectly viable route to leaving. The document implementing the transition is all ready to sign, and has been since November. Parliament is sovereign, and so far has chosen not to ratify it, but that is a political choice.SeanT said:
...
BTW the difficulty of Brexiting gives the lie to Remainer arguments that the UK was always sovereign, a free nation, able to leave any time, what’s the big fuss. As we now see, we gave away so much sovereignty, by stealth, quitting the EU was and is virtually impossible. British “sovereignty” was fast becoming a polite fiction.
...
Perfectly viable??? This is the same Deal which has been denounced by the ex-head of MI6, no less, as a practically traitorous document which surrenders our military independence? This is the same Deal which potentially locks us into a Customs Union (but with no say in its rules) for the rest of recorded time?
That’s perfectly viable? Dear Richard, I hereby propose we should wed, I have a prenup ready to sign, don’t worry about the small print, dear. Xx0 -
Erm, before A50 there was no mechanism for exiting the EU treaties, and as they are between the member states, the Vienna Convention prohibited unilateral denunciation.SeanT said:
During the financial crisis the Irish government had to submit its budget for approval by the Bundestag BEFORE it was seen by Irish MPs. You don’t get much more colonised than that.Nigel_Foremain said:
Agreed with all but the nonsense in the last bit about Ireland being a colony. They are no more a colony of the EU than we are of the United States. Rather Mark Francoisesque and grotesquely silly.SeanT said:
Hmm. You are still being too kind to the SNP. At the heart of Scottish nationalism is a burning hatred of the English, stemming from, and allied with, a deep inferiority complex vis-a-vis the Sassenachs, They have done well to build a facade of “civic nationalism” to disguise this, but it is still there, lurking. Down in the crypt.kinabalu said:
Not s to Mother?Nigel_Foremain said:I disagree. The SNP is not benign, though it likes to give the impression it is. It has some very sinister undertones that are ba cannot make this excuse. Scotland has been massively overrepresented in British government, and Scottish subjects were very strongly influential on the growth of the British Empire. Their victim status is contrived.
Irish nationalism has similar demons in its past, but they have been largely exorcised by independence, and more lately by prosperity, to the extent that Ireland is now content to be run as a colony of Berlin and Brussels, as long as the money keeps coming in. A flavoursome irony.
As a small member of the eurozone, Dublin is now completely subordinate to Brussels and Berlin. It has no real sovereignty, merely the simulacrum of sovereignty. If it ever tried to rebel, or leave, it would be treated like Greece. Moreover, it cannot ever leave. Leaving the eurozone is impossible. We’ve seen how difficult it is to Brexit, quitting the eurozone would be Brexit to the power of ten.
BTW the difficulty of Brexiting gives the lie to Remainer arguments that the UK was always sovereign, a free nation, able to leave any time, what’s the big fuss. As we now see, we gave away so much sovereignty, by stealth, quitting the EU was and is virtually impossible. British “sovereignty” was fast becoming a polite fiction.
We should have left before the Lisbon Treaty and its hideous Article 50, expressly designed to punish any seceding state. But we are where we are.
And before anyone says “but Greenland”, it left through Denmark redefining it as an overseas territory not covered by the treaties.0 -
I feel like No Deal if it happens will be like the closure of the mining pits. A big uproar at the time, some upset with long memories but ultimately no harm to the economy overall.Beverley_C said:
My personal opinion is that if panic sets in, revocation will be done and the mess cleared up afterwards, but I feel "No Deal" may be the only practical method of burning this corrosive form of English Nationalism out of our politics.MikeSmithson said:
Why or is that just your own wishful thinking?SeanT said:rkrkrk said:
The EU or May might blink, but if everyone holds firm, I think we will some kind of Grieve amendment passing that takes the decision out of her hands and revokes Article 50. So I still think there won't be a No Deal exit.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
Revocation? Nah. It would be political suicide for any MP that voted for it.0 -
Weird. But true. In The Boss, a 2011 TV drama about a dodgy Chicago mayor. The advisor is one Ezra Stone.0
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I can see us knocking off 450.0
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There is another example: Algeria. Though I agree that doesn't really add much to the discussion.rpjs said:
Erm, before A50 there was no mechanism for exiting the EU treaties, and as they are between the member states, the Vienna Convention prohibited unilateral denunciation.SeanT said:
During the financial crisis the Irish government had to submit its budget for approval by the Bundestag BEFORE it was seen by Irish MPs. You don’t get much more colonised than that.Nigel_Foremain said:
Agreed with all but the nonsense in the last bit about Ireland being a colony. They are no more a colony of the EU than we are of the United States. Rather Mark Francoisesque and grotesquely silly.SeanT said:
Hmm. You are still being too kind to the SNP. At the heart of Scottish nationalism is a burning hatred of the English, stemming from, and allied with, a deep inferiority complex vis-a-vis the Sassenachs, They have done well to build a facade of “civic nationalism” to disguise this, but it is still there, lurking. Down in the crypt.
Irish nationalism has similar demons in its past, but they have been largely exorcised by independence, and more lately by prosperity, to the extent that Ireland is now content to be run as a colony of Berlin and Brussels, as long as the money keeps coming in. A flavoursome irony.
As a small member of the eurozone, Dublin is now completely subordinate to Brussels and Berlin. It has no real sovereignty, merely the simulacrum of sovereignty. If it ever tried to rebel, or leave, it would be treated like Greece. Moreover, it cannot ever leave. Leaving the eurozone is impossible. We’ve seen how difficult it is to Brexit, quitting the eurozone would be Brexit to the power of ten.
BTW the difficulty of Brexiting gives the lie to Remainer arguments that the UK was always sovereign, a free nation, able to leave any time, what’s the big fuss. As we now see, we gave away so much sovereignty, by stealth, quitting the EU was and is virtually impossible. British “sovereignty” was fast becoming a polite fiction.
We should have left before the Lisbon Treaty and its hideous Article 50, expressly designed to punish any seceding state. But we are where we are.
And before anyone says “but Greenland”, it left through Denmark redefining it as an overseas territory not covered by the treaties.0 -
If Westminster can ignore the outcome of a Referendum on the EU that went against their preference, then it can do so to deliver an Independent Scotland too.... Nicola will say.SeanT said:
Is that a serious question??MikeSmithson said:
Why or is that just your own wishful thinking?SeanT said:rkrkrk said:
The EU or May might blink, but if everyone holds firm, I think we will some kind of Grieve amendment passing that takes the decision out of her hands and revokes Article 50. So I still think there won't be a No Deal exit.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
Revocation? Nah. It would be political suicide for any MP that voted for it.
How do you think it would look, a majority of MPs simply voting away the referendum result, so we Remain in the EU? It would signal the end of British democracy as we know it. It’s far far worse than a 2nd referendum, which is already a perilous course of action.
Any MP that voted for this: to simply ignore and abort the expressed wish of the people, would be severely punished in any subsequent election, by all Leave voters, and a good number of appalled Remain voters. Only MPs in overwhelmingly Remain constituencies could hope to get away with it.0 -
It might be, but they might hope that they can square it with the electorate by pointing to the opposition to the deal from the no deal faction of the Conservatives. They might be wrong in this hope, but people have done things on the basis of mistaken beliefs before.SeanT said:rkrkrk said:
The EU or May might blink, but if everyone holds firm, I think we will some kind of Grieve amendment passing that takes the decision out of her hands and revokes Article 50. So I still think there won't be a No Deal exit.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
Revocation? Nah. It would be political suicide for any MP that voted for it.
Personally, I don't think it is likely they will be sufficiently organised or determined to do so, but it is possible.0 -
So we just need Gibraltar to redefine the UK as an overseas territory and we're home & hosed.rpjs said:
Erm, before A50 there was no mechanism for exiting the EU treaties, and as they are between the member states, the Vienna Convention prohibited unilateral denunciation.SeanT said:
During the financial crisis the Irish government had to submit its budget for approval by the Bundestag BEFORE it was seen by Irish MPs. You don’t get much more colonised than that.Nigel_Foremain said:
Agreed with all but the nonsense in the last bit about Ireland being a colony. They are no more a colony of the EU than we are of the United States. Rather Mark Francoisesque and grotesquely silly.SeanT said:
Hmm. You are still being too kind to the SNP. At the heart of Scottish nationalism is a burning hatred of the English, stemming from, and allied with, a deep inferiority complex vis-a-vis the Sassenachs, They have done well to build a facade of “civic nationalism” to disguise this, but it is still there, lurking. Down in the crypt.kinabalu said:
Not s to Mother?Nigel_Foremain said:I disagree. The SNP is not benign, though it likes to give the impression it is. It has some very sinister undertones that are ba cannot make this excuse. Scotland has been massively overrepresented in British government, and Scottish subjects were very strongly influential on the growth of the British Empire. Their victim status is contrived.
As a small member of the eurozone, Dublin is now completely subordinate to Brussels and Berlin. It has no real sovereignty, merely the simulacrum of sovereignty. If it ever tried to rebel, or leave, it would be treated like Greece. Moreover, it cannot ever leave. Leaving the eurozone is impossible. We’ve seen how difficult it is to Brexit, quitting the eurozone would be Brexit to the power of ten.
BTW the difficulty of Brexiting gives the lie to Remainer arguments that the UK was always sovereign, a free nation, able to leave any time, what’s the big fuss. As we now see, we gave away so much sovereignty, by stealth, quitting the EU was and is virtually impossible. British “sovereignty” was fast becoming a polite fiction.
We should have left before the Lisbon Treaty and its hideous Article 50, expressly designed to punish any seceding state. But we are where we are.
And before anyone says “but Greenland”, it left through Denmark redefining it as an overseas territory not covered by the treaties.0 -
Gets back from a very long but enjoyable day at the golf. Bloody hell the modern pros can hit the ball a long way!
Logs onto PB to find the atmosphere worse than ever. Decides it’s preferable to switch on the telly and watch England lose by an innings instead.0 -
The electorate know what they voted for and they deserve to get it.
Good and hard.0 -
As long as you're happier sourcing the country's primary energy supplies from Russia, Qatar and Colombia, rather than from under the feet of Yorkshiremen/women.Philip_Thompson said:
I feel like No Deal if it happens will be like the closure of the mining pits. A big uproar at the time, some upset with long memories but ultimately no harm to the economy overall.Beverley_C said:
My personal opinion is that if panic sets in, revocation will be done and the mess cleared up afterwards, but I feel "No Deal" may be the only practical method of burning this corrosive form of English Nationalism out of our politics.MikeSmithson said:
Why or is that just your own wishful thinking?SeanT said:rkrkrk said:
The EU or May might blink, but if everyone holds firm, I think we will some kind of Grieve amendment passing that takes the decision out of her hands and revokes Article 50. So I still think there won't be a No Deal exit.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
Revocation? Nah. It would be political suicide for any MP that voted for it.0 -
The miners were so forgiving when their pits closed. It only took them a week or two to get over it....Philip_Thompson said:
I feel like No Deal if it happens will be like the closure of the mining pits. A big uproar at the time, some upset with long memories but ultimately no harm to the economy overall.Beverley_C said:
My personal opinion is that if panic sets in, revocation will be done and the mess cleared up afterwards, but I feel "No Deal" may be the only practical method of burning this corrosive form of English Nationalism out of our politics.MikeSmithson said:
Why or is that just your own wishful thinking?SeanT said:rkrkrk said:
The EU or May might blink, but if everyone holds firm, I think we will some kind of Grieve amendment passing that takes the decision out of her hands and revokes Article 50. So I still think there won't be a No Deal exit.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
Revocation? Nah. It would be political suicide for any MP that voted for it.
Not!
If that is your comparison for a successful Brexit then God help us all.0 -
Excellent. Good old HL Menckengypsumfantastic said:The electorate know what they voted for and they deserve to get it.
Good and hard.0 -
If you hang on for a couple of months you can watch England lose more than a couple of inningsSandpit said:Gets back from a very long but enjoyable day at the golf. Bloody hell the modern pros can hit the ball a long way!
Logs onto PB to find the atmosphere worse than ever. Decides it’s preferable to switch on the telly and watch England lose by an innings instead.
And Scotland, and Wales and NI.0 -
Fake News.rpjs said:On topic: FAA has suspended flights into and out of New York LaGuardia due to staff shortages.
Edit: Philadelphia and Newark airports too.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/some-flights-halted-at-laguardia-due-to-staff-shortages-amid-federal-shutdown
Some Flights Held Up at LaGuardia Due to Staff Shortages From Shutdown
"some flights held up" - whoopee.0 -
As if the Tories could give a fuck. We've got the circus of Heidi Allen touring the country saying "something has to be done" to the egregious deliberate fuck the poor effects of UC. But her party colleagues don't give a toss.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Let's be honest though, if the ticking clock were not there, we'd find a way to make the endless displacement activity that's been going on since last summer last for years, perhaps decades.SeanT said:
No, clearly we would have left, but it would have been Sui generis, and done over several years, and it would have involved lots of tedious lawyering and compromising and fudging and bilateral negotiations, all of the stuff we are good at, and most of all there wouldn’t be this hideous ticking two year clock, as there is in Article 50, which gives all the power to the EU and makes the seceding nation a desperate flailing supplicant (as it is designed to do, according to the Brit that wrote it, Lord Kerr)
Nothing Has Changed metastasizes from being an in-joke to a national motto.0 -
There is the bona fide vibe of a crime family. And I'm sure the Don himself would be secretly flattered by the allusion.Nigelb said:Indeed...
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/michael-cohen-subpoenaed-senate-intelligence-committee-n962311
...Davis also criticized the president and his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani for targeting Cohen's relatives in interviews.
“This is classic mob technique to send a signal to the individual who Mr. Trump has called a ‘rat’ for telling the truth," he said. "Now, that word ‘rat’ comes directly out of organized crime. It’s also a signal to other inmates in a potential prison situation."
“But the family of Michael Cohen has been called out by Donald Trump," Davis said. "Once again, he ducks or lies about what he knows he’s done, which is to attack a father-in-law and wife as a way of getting to Mr. Cohen, and that is called witness tampering, obstruction of justice.”...
...On Thursday, Davis called Giuliani "mentally unstable" and said he's "a prosecutor who would prosecute what he just did," referring to the claims Giuliani made on CNN. Davis declined to say if Cohen's family would pursue legal action against Giuliani but called on Congress to vote on a resolution of censure to reprimand Trump.
"You can go after Mr. Cohen, if that’s their design, because Mr. Cohen’s an adverse witness," Davis said. "What do his father-in-law and his wife have to do with anything — other than the crime of witness tampering, intimidation, and corrupt intent to try to deter Mr. Cohen from telling the truth? And I hope the Senate and the House, they can vote a resolution of censure, and Mr. Giuliani can be indicted and certainly criminally investigated for doing what he just did, that is prima facie a crime to threaten a witness before Congress."
Fits in with his 'base' too. They always make me think of those salt of the earth cockney types in the East End who idolized the Twins in the 60s, swore blind that they were straight up and down proper geezers who had the interests of the common working man at heart. But meanwhile ...0 -
He's pretty much my hero.rottenborough said:
Excellent. Good old HL Menckengypsumfantastic said:The electorate know what they voted for and they deserve to get it.
Good and hard.
"Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong."0 -
I was involved in writing Housing Benefit systems after a big legislation change in the 1980s and it went live on time (4th April '88) and dealt with variable periods, 53 week years, etc. etc. I look at the current shambles where technology is orders of magnitude better and I wonder what the heck is going on.RochdalePioneers said:
As if the Tories could give a fuck. We've got the circus of Heidi Allen touring the country saying "something has to be done" to the egregious deliberate fuck the poor effects of UC. But her party colleagues don't give a toss.TheScreamingEagles said:
Has incompetence become a mandated recruitment characteristic?0 -
You do wonder though for how long staff doing these safety critical roles will continue to work at full speed / strength / availability when their president / congresspeople (delete as appropriate) seem utterly uninterested in their wellbeingAnorak said:
Fake News.rpjs said:On topic: FAA has suspended flights into and out of New York LaGuardia due to staff shortages.
Edit: Philadelphia and Newark airports too.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/some-flights-halted-at-laguardia-due-to-staff-shortages-amid-federal-shutdown
Some Flights Held Up at LaGuardia Due to Staff Shortages From Shutdown
"some flights held up" - whoopee.0 -
Mrs C,
"The miners were so forgiving when their pits closed. It only took them a week or two to get over it...."
Ah, if we only had the pits still. It would be like the fracking furore, we'd have the Green loons abseiling down them and demanding they be closed immediately.
0 -
Except in the mining communities, which were absolutely devastated, and still yet to recover.Philip_Thompson said:
I feel like No Deal if it happens will be like the closure of the mining pits. A big uproar at the time, some upset with long memories but ultimately no harm to the economy overall.Beverley_C said:
My personal opinion is that if panic sets in, revocation will be done and the mess cleared up afterwards, but I feel "No Deal" may be the only practical method of burning this corrosive form of English Nationalism out of our politics.MikeSmithson said:
Why or is that just your own wishful thinking?SeanT said:rkrkrk said:
The EU or May might blink, but if everyone holds firm, I think we will some kind of Grieve amendment passing that takes the decision out of her hands and revokes Article 50. So I still think there won't be a No Deal exit.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
Revocation? Nah. It would be political suicide for any MP that voted for it.
So No Deal is like the whole country is Easington or Ollerton.0 -
No deal would actually be quite popular judging by the attitudes of the bushy eyebrowed and ill tempered men Sky are always finding to interview. They are livid that the UK is even negotiating with the EU.0
-
Alternatively, cover Yorkshire with bloody great wind turbines.SandyRentool said:
As long as you're happier sourcing the country's primary energy supplies from Russia, Qatar and Colombia, rather than from under the feet of Yorkshiremen/women.Philip_Thompson said:
I feel like No Deal if it happens will be like the closure of the mining pits. A big uproar at the time, some upset with long memories but ultimately no harm to the economy overall.Beverley_C said:
My personal opinion is that if panic sets in, revocation will be done and the mess cleared up afterwards, but I feel "No Deal" may be the only practical method of burning this corrosive form of English Nationalism out of our politics.MikeSmithson said:
Why or is that just your own wishful thinking?SeanT said:rkrkrk said:
The EU or May might blink, but if everyone holds firm, I think we will some kind of Grieve amendment passing that takes the decision out of her hands and revokes Article 50. So I still think there won't be a No Deal exit.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
Revocation? Nah. It would be political suicide for any MP that voted for it.
Go north from Doncaster, and you might suspect it had happened already.0 -
They (and the BBC) always seem to interview people in shopping centres or market towns in the middle of the afternoon. A disproportionately high gammon content which unsurprisingly leads to lots of Europhobic froth.Dura_Ace said:No deal would actually be quite popular judging by the attitudes of the bushy eyebrowed and ill tempered men Sky are always finding to interview. They are livid that the UK is even negotiating with the EU.
0 -
Handy cnn being there for an armed raid on someone who has never offered resistance to voluntary interviews.0
-
I'd say it's 50 50 at the moment between no deal and a last-minute revokation as suggested here by Ms Beverley. It all depends on the level of panic in late March - it's not behind the bounds of possibility that parliament will revoke at 10 pm on March 29 if the forecasts of project fear have been proved correct by then.SeanT said:
You think we will have No Deal?anothernick said:
Indeed. There will only be a deal if the EU agrees one. And the EU will only reopen negotiations if they are convinced that May can get a revised deal through parliament. And May will only be able to get a revised deal through parliament if she attracts a substantial number of Labour MPs in support. AndTheScreamingEagles said:
I fear the EU/Ireland will blink first is the new German carmakers will ensure we get a good deal.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
this will only happen if May backs down on her red lines, a customs union in particular. And this would split the Tories and May probably could not deliver on it anyway. So the chances of a revised deal are pretty slim IMO.0 -
This is a good point. If we cannot leave without economic ruination and a return to the Troubles, then we cannot leave. Which means we have lost our sovereignty and must therefore leave.SeanT said:BTW the difficulty of Brexiting gives the lie to Remainer arguments that the UK was always sovereign, a free nation, able to leave any time, what’s the big fuss. As we now see, we gave away so much sovereignty, by stealth, quitting the EU was and is virtually impossible. British “sovereignty” was fast becoming a polite fiction.
On the other hand, essentially the same sentiment can be expressed more benignly - that we are in a club whose benefits to us are so great that we would be nuts to even think about leaving.
Same facts, starkly different conclusion.0 -
Its beyond the possible realm of even gross incompetence. This is done on purpose by mendacious amoral uncaring bastards who set out to create a system that punishes the people on it. And when the effects of said punishment are pointed out to those who support it they post a tweet demanding that those made homeless be swept from their tents - as if they are there by choice.Beverley_C said:
I was involved in writing Housing Benefit systems after a big legislation change in the 1980s and it went live on time (4th April '88) and dealt with variable periods, 53 week years, etc. etc. I look at the current shambles where technology is orders of magnitude better and I wonder what the heck is going on.RochdalePioneers said:
As if the Tories could give a fuck. We've got the circus of Heidi Allen touring the country saying "something has to be done" to the egregious deliberate fuck the poor effects of UC. But her party colleagues don't give a toss.TheScreamingEagles said:
Has incompetence become a mandated recruitment characteristic?
Myself and Tories disagree on all kinds of policies, but usually they are either / or options that are differences of opinion on how to reach a similar goal. What is the goal here with UC if its not to fuck over the poor? The implementation of - and unwillingness to listen to and then change the effects of - UC is simply wrong. Its no longer a policy issue its one of basic human morality and decency.0 -
If everyone was being honest, UK and EU, Remainers and Leavers, we’d move to an associate membership status of the EU over a period of 7-10 years.kinabalu said:
This is a good point. If we cannot leave without economic ruination and a return to the Troubles, then we cannot leave. Which means we have lost our sovereignty and must therefore leave.SeanT said:BTW the difficulty of Brexiting gives the lie to Remainer arguments that the UK was always sovereign, a free nation, able to leave any time, what’s the big fuss. As we now see, we gave away so much sovereignty, by stealth, quitting the EU was and is virtually impossible. British “sovereignty” was fast becoming a polite fiction.
On the other hand, essentially the same sentiment can be expressed more benignly - that we are in a club whose benefits to us are so great that we would be nuts to even think about leaving.
Same facts, starkly different conclusion.
But everyone has decided to be dickish about it for their own political ends, so we are where we are.0 -
Chief whip given "licence to bullshit".
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/the-chief-whip-has-told-mps-the-uks-brexit-withdrawal0 -
It is hard not to agree with that. It is clear that someone, somewhere has no intention of listening.RochdalePioneers said:
Its beyond the possible realm of even gross incompetence. This is done on purpose by mendacious amoral uncaring bastards who set out to create a system that punishes the people on it. And when the effects of said punishment are pointed out to those who support it they post a tweet demanding that those made homeless be swept from their tents - as if they are there by choice.Beverley_C said:
I was involved in writing Housing Benefit systems after a big legislation change in the 1980s and it went live on time (4th April '88) and dealt with variable periods, 53 week years, etc. etc. I look at the current shambles where technology is orders of magnitude better and I wonder what the heck is going on.RochdalePioneers said:
As if the Tories could give a fuck. We've got the circus of Heidi Allen touring the country saying "something has to be done" to the egregious deliberate fuck the poor effects of UC. But her party colleagues don't give a toss.TheScreamingEagles said:
Has incompetence become a mandated recruitment characteristic?
Myself and Tories disagree on all kinds of policies, but usually they are either / or options that are differences of opinion on how to reach a similar goal. What is the goal here with UC if its not to fuck over the poor? The implementation of - and unwillingness to listen to and then change the effects of - UC is simply wrong. Its no longer a policy issue its one of basic human morality and decency.0 -
I will do my very best not to hold that thought.Nigel_Foremain said:Well, good points, but many things are on a continuum, and just because Nicola looks like the stunt double for Janette Krankie doesn't automatically mean should doesn't also enjoy dressing up in leather and singing songs about Scottish Lebensraum (only joking of course ...
0 -
It's almost as if every political animal of every hue is completely absorbed by another issue to the detriment of ABSOLUTELY FUCKING EVERYTHING.Beverley_C said:
It is hard not to agree with that. It is clear that someone, somewhere has no intention of listening.RochdalePioneers said:Myself and Tories disagree on all kinds of policies, but usually they are either / or options that are differences of opinion on how to reach a similar goal. What is the goal here with UC if its not to fuck over the poor? The implementation of - and unwillingness to listen to and then change the effects of - UC is simply wrong. Its no longer a policy issue its one of basic human morality and decency.
*huff* *huff* *huff* *huff* ... tossers all.0 -
An image that we used to call a "wilter" due to it's physiological impact.kinabalu said:
I will do my very best not to hold that thought.Nigel_Foremain said:Well, good points, but many things are on a continuum, and just because Nicola looks like the stunt double for Janette Krankie doesn't automatically mean should doesn't also enjoy dressing up in leather and singing songs about Scottish Lebensraum (only joking of course ...
0 -
Worth noting that it is areas on the former coalfields (and related heavy industry like Steel, Shibuilding, Chemicals) that felt so strongly about not being listened to, that they voted Leave.rottenborough said:
Except in the mining communities, which were absolutely devastated, and still yet to recover.Philip_Thompson said:
I feel like No Deal if it happens will be like the closure of the mining pits. A big uproar at the time, some upset with long memories but ultimately no harm to the economy overall.Beverley_C said:
My personal opinion is that if panic sets in, revocation will be done and the mess cleared up afterwards, but I feel "No Deal" may be the only practical method of burning this corrosive form of English Nationalism out of our politics.MikeSmithson said:
Why or is that just your own wishful thinking?SeanT said:rkrkrk said:
The EU or May might blink, but if everyone holds firm, I think we will some kind of Grieve amendment passing that takes the decision out of her hands and revokes Article 50. So I still think there won't be a No Deal exit.SeanT said:
So: No Deal?rkrkrk said:
Informative article - but I don't agree with your conclusion. The only deal which passes is one with Labour and Conservative votes, which must be a softer one to get Labour support.Tissue_Price said:Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...
https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/
May would have to break her red line on the customs union I think. And will she? I doubt it.
I just can’t see it. Parliament will go bonkers as No Deal approaches. MPs will swarm. Something will be passed. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime.
It is also possible that the EU - or Ireland - will blink first.
Revocation? Nah. It would be political suicide for any MP that voted for it.
So No Deal is like the whole country is Easington or Ollerton.
That sort of grudge against the Tories (such as Cameron and Osborne) came out in the end asa dish served cold.0 -
You do post the most absurd rubbish. What on earth has Universal Credit got to do with the problem of rough sleepers in Cardiff not taking up the beds which are available to them?RochdalePioneers said:
Its beyond the possible realm of even gross incompetence. This is done on purpose by mendacious amoral uncaring bastards who set out to create a system that punishes the people on it. And when the effects of said punishment are pointed out to those who support it they post a tweet demanding that those made homeless be swept from their tents - as if they are there by choice.
Myself and Tories disagree on all kinds of policies, but usually they are either / or options that are differences of opinion on how to reach a similar goal. What is the goal here with UC if its not to fuck over the poor? The implementation of - and unwillingness to listen to and then change the effects of - UC is simply wrong. Its no longer a policy issue its one of basic human morality and decency.
As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.0 -
If you mean Brexit, the Tories have been amoral bastards about UC for long before Brexit was an issueAnorak said:
It's almost as if every political animal of every hue is completely absorbed by another issue to the detriment of ABSOLUTELY FUCKING EVERYTHING.Beverley_C said:
It is hard not to agree with that. It is clear that someone, somewhere has no intention of listening.RochdalePioneers said:Myself and Tories disagree on all kinds of policies, but usually they are either / or options that are differences of opinion on how to reach a similar goal. What is the goal here with UC if its not to fuck over the poor? The implementation of - and unwillingness to listen to and then change the effects of - UC is simply wrong. Its no longer a policy issue its one of basic human morality and decency.
*huff* *huff* *huff* *huff* ... tossers all.0 -
Maybe also KLOBUCHAR will be running on conventional Dem policies. Almost the entire field seems to be running left but I wonder if there isn't more support in the centre that it sounds. Dems *really* want to win and they won't want to take anything for granted after 2012. There was a lot of talk about the left taking over before the midterm primaries but they managed to pick fairly moderate candidates in swing districts. And if the GOP side isn't seriously contested, right-leaning anti-Trump voters will often be voting in the Dem primary more than the GOP one.MJW said:
Similarly, with the exception of possibly Biden, every 2020 Dem candidate will go into the election with populist transformative policies. Providing the Dems do win in 2020, and it's obviously a big if, one of politics great ironies maybe that by pushing liberals too far with Trump and other assorted outrages (Garland, McConnell's obstructionism, repeatedly trying to gut Obamacare), conservatives may have dug their own graves by awakening them from inertia and killing the traditional desire to compromise.0 -
Part of it is Second System effect.Beverley_C said:I was involved in writing Housing Benefit systems after a big legislation change in the 1980s and it went live on time (4th April '88) and dealt with variable periods, 53 week years, etc. etc. I look at the current shambles where technology is orders of magnitude better and I wonder what the heck is going on.
Has incompetence become a mandated recruitment characteristic?
The original Child Support system was green screen mainframe.
CS2 was Java forms and websphere middleware, to hide the mainframe. Not the same mainframe. Not from the same manufacturer...0 -
I think the way Universal Credit has been handled gives me a greater degree of rage than Brexit. If a benefit is intended to help people with their rent then it should help with their rent. It's not complicated.RochdalePioneers said:
Its beyond the possible realm of even gross incompetence. This is done on purpose by mendacious amoral uncaring bastards who set out to create a system that punishes the people on it. And when the effects of said punishment are pointed out to those who support it they post a tweet demanding that those made homeless be swept from their tents - as if they are there by choice.Beverley_C said:
I was involved in writing Housing Benefit systems after a big legislation change in the 1980s and it went live on time (4th April '88) and dealt with variable periods, 53 week years, etc. etc. I look at the current shambles where technology is orders of magnitude better and I wonder what the heck is going on.RochdalePioneers said:
As if the Tories could give a fuck. We've got the circus of Heidi Allen touring the country saying "something has to be done" to the egregious deliberate fuck the poor effects of UC. But her party colleagues don't give a toss.TheScreamingEagles said:
Has incompetence become a mandated recruitment characteristic?
Myself and Tories disagree on all kinds of policies, but usually they are either / or options that are differences of opinion on how to reach a similar goal. What is the goal here with UC if its not to fuck over the poor? The implementation of - and unwillingness to listen to and then change the effects of - UC is simply wrong. Its no longer a policy issue its one of basic human morality and decency.0 -
No - project fear was the Osborne frothing about the immediate impact on the markets of a leave vote. Which was a politician's view of events motivated by the desire to influence a vote. What we have now is project fact - industry isn't making up the effects of crash Brexit no matter how many times that morons say "project fear" in response.anothernick said:
I'd say it's 50 50 at the moment between no deal and a last-minute revokation as suggested here by Ms Beverley. It all depends on the level of panic in late March - it's not behind the bounds of possibility that parliament will revoke at 10 pm on March 29 if the forecasts of project fear have been proved correct by then.
I expect that the majority of "its all project fear" morons will change their minds as reality slams them in the gut. The minority won't as they are fixated on the ideology of their "prize". And we will be able to feel the effects before we crash out as business starts to pull the plugs out before the bomb drops. Whether thats enough to change opinions or not I don't know - I've said before that I can see May's final act as PM being revocation of Article 50. It would end her politically of course. But her sense of duty - if its to the country and not the party - surely would shape her thinking.0 -
Don a bit slow off the mark today.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/10888329084948889610 -
A general catch all for the entire senior political class. I don't actually disagree with UC on a conceptual basis, but the implementation has been a fiasco, and one which really, really hurts people. Unforgiveably poor.RochdalePioneers said:
If you mean Brexit, the Tories have been amoral bastards about UC for long before Brexit was an issueAnorak said:
It's almost as if every political animal of every hue is completely absorbed by another issue to the detriment of ABSOLUTELY FUCKING EVERYTHING.Beverley_C said:
It is hard not to agree with that. It is clear that someone, somewhere has no intention of listening.RochdalePioneers said:Myself and Tories disagree on all kinds of policies, but usually they are either / or options that are differences of opinion on how to reach a similar goal. What is the goal here with UC if its not to fuck over the poor? The implementation of - and unwillingness to listen to and then change the effects of - UC is simply wrong. Its no longer a policy issue its one of basic human morality and decency.
*huff* *huff* *huff* *huff* ... tossers all.0 -
Obviously some people never learned anything from Fred Brooks....Scott_P said:
Part of it is Second System effect.Beverley_C said:I was involved in writing Housing Benefit systems after a big legislation change in the 1980s and it went live on time (4th April '88) and dealt with variable periods, 53 week years, etc. etc. I look at the current shambles where technology is orders of magnitude better and I wonder what the heck is going on.
Has incompetence become a mandated recruitment characteristic?
The original Child Support system was green screen mainframe.
CS2 was Java forms and websphere middleware, to hide the mainframe. Not the same mainframe. Not from the same manufacturer...
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Yes. If my intention were to allay concerns about the impact of a No Deal Brexit I would not be offering up the current woe-begotten state of those communities in South Yorkshire which used to rely on the coal industry. It's all stray dogs and slag heaps now. Will that be most of the country after we leave the EU without a deal? Stray dogs and slag heaps?Beverley_C said:The miners were so forgiving when their pits closed. It only took them a week or two to get over it....
Not!
If that is your comparison for a successful Brexit then God help us all.0 -
Books will be written about CS2...Beverley_C said:Obviously some people never learned anything from Fred Brooks....
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It is not a good look for our Country and Marc Francois has given me serious thought as to whether I can stay in the same party as such an ignorant and prejudiced individual. He is not and never will be my type of politics, nor his fellow travellers.Dura_Ace said:No deal would actually be quite popular judging by the attitudes of the bushy eyebrowed and ill tempered men Sky are always finding to interview. They are livid that the UK is even negotiating with the EU.
Shame on him0 -
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For DWP ministers, yes. If they change the requirements on you faster than you can implement the changes then you'll never finish.Beverley_C said:
I was involved in writing Housing Benefit systems after a big legislation change in the 1980s and it went live on time (4th April '88) and dealt with variable periods, 53 week years, etc. etc. I look at the current shambles where technology is orders of magnitude better and I wonder what the heck is going on.RochdalePioneers said:
As if the Tories could give a fuck. We've got the circus of Heidi Allen touring the country saying "something has to be done" to the egregious deliberate fuck the poor effects of UC. But her party colleagues don't give a toss.TheScreamingEagles said:
Has incompetence become a mandated recruitment characteristic?0 -
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+1. I simply cannot understand the mentality of these people. They will not listen to reason and say anything they don't agree with is project fear. Anybody with common sense can see No Deal will fundamentally affect the economy in a detrimental way for years to come.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not a good look for our Country and Marc Francois has given me serious thought as to whether I can stay in the same party as such an ignorant and prejudiced individual. He is not and never will be my type of politics, nor his fellow travellers.Dura_Ace said:No deal would actually be quite popular judging by the attitudes of the bushy eyebrowed and ill tempered men Sky are always finding to interview. They are livid that the UK is even negotiating with the EU.
Shame on him0 -
Perhaps someone who hasn't been paid in over a month alerted them?Anorak said:Don a bit slow off the mark today.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/10888329084948889610 -
Legal ones containing the words "Class Action" perhaps?Scott_P said:
Books will be written about CS2...Beverley_C said:Obviously some people never learned anything from Fred Brooks....
At least Brooks is still with us - another of my "heros", Jerry Weinberg, popped his clogs last August. Personally I think Weinberg and Brooks should be required courses for any programmer / analyst.0 -
Reminds me of Point Break an excellent film in which bank robbers ware masks of former US Presidents!Anorak said:Don a bit slow off the mark today.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1088832908494888961
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/f5215649-1ea7-40a0-b658-5adcb723915b0 -
Project FyreThe_Taxman said:
+1. I simply cannot understand the mentality of these people. They will not listen to reason and say anything they don't agree with is project fear. Anybody with common sense can see No Deal will fundamentally affect the economy in a detrimental way for years to come.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not a good look for our Country and Marc Francois has given me serious thought as to whether I can stay in the same party as such an ignorant and prejudiced individual. He is not and never will be my type of politics, nor his fellow travellers.Dura_Ace said:No deal would actually be quite popular judging by the attitudes of the bushy eyebrowed and ill tempered men Sky are always finding to interview. They are livid that the UK is even negotiating with the EU.
Shame on him0 -
If no deal came about, I would resign my party and join the lib dems, if they would have meThe_Taxman said:
+1. I simply cannot understand the mentality of these people. They will not listen to reason and say anything they don't agree with is project fear. Anybody with common sense can see No Deal will fundamentally affect the economy in a detrimental way for years to come.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not a good look for our Country and Marc Francois has given me serious thought as to whether I can stay in the same party as such an ignorant and prejudiced individual. He is not and never will be my type of politics, nor his fellow travellers.Dura_Ace said:No deal would actually be quite popular judging by the attitudes of the bushy eyebrowed and ill tempered men Sky are always finding to interview. They are livid that the UK is even negotiating with the EU.
Shame on him0 -
The impact of No Deal on the Tories would make the days of IDS look like an impossible dream.Big_G_NorthWales said:If no deal came about, I would resign my party and join the lib dems, if they would have me
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Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.Richard_Nabavi said:As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.
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That will make up for him being a person of not much interest to the great majority of the British public.Scott_P said:0 -
Study the form. What's her form? It indicates she puts Party before Country. What damages her Party more, Revocation or a No Deal Brexit?RochdalePioneers said:
No - project fear was the Osborne frothing about the immediate impact on the markets of a leave vote. Which was a politician's view of events motivated by the desire to influence a vote. What we have now is project fact - industry isn't making up the effects of crash Brexit no matter how many times that morons say "project fear" in response.anothernick said:
I'd say it's 50 50 at the moment between no deal and a last-minute revokation as suggested here by Ms Beverley. It all depends on the level of panic in late March - it's not behind the bounds of possibility that parliament will revoke at 10 pm on March 29 if the forecasts of project fear have been proved correct by then.
I expect that the majority of "its all project fear" morons will change their minds as reality slams them in the gut. The minority won't as they are fixated on the ideology of their "prize". And we will be able to feel the effects before we crash out as business starts to pull the plugs out before the bomb drops. Whether thats enough to change opinions or not I don't know - I've said before that I can see May's final act as PM being revocation of Article 50. It would end her politically of course. But her sense of duty - if its to the country and not the party - surely would shape her thinking.
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Mr. NorthWales, what if almost all Con MPs backed the deal put it didn't pass?0
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Can I watch him being extradited? PLEASE!MarqueeMark said:
That will make up for him being a person of not much interest to the great majority of the British public.Scott_P said:0 -
I ... don't know. But I greatly fear she thinks the former.Peter_the_Punter said:
Study the form. What's her form? It indicates she puts Party before Country. What damages her Party more, Revocation or a No Deal Brexit?RochdalePioneers said:
No - project fear was the Osborne frothing about the immediate impact on the markets of a leave vote. Which was a politician's view of events motivated by the desire to influence a vote. What we have now is project fact - industry isn't making up the effects of crash Brexit no matter how many times that morons say "project fear" in response.anothernick said:
I'd say it's 50 50 at the moment between no deal and a last-minute revokation as suggested here by Ms Beverley. It all depends on the level of panic in late March - it's not behind the bounds of possibility that parliament will revoke at 10 pm on March 29 if the forecasts of project fear have been proved correct by then.
I expect that the majority of "its all project fear" morons will change their minds as reality slams them in the gut. The minority won't as they are fixated on the ideology of their "prize". And we will be able to feel the effects before we crash out as business starts to pull the plugs out before the bomb drops. Whether thats enough to change opinions or not I don't know - I've said before that I can see May's final act as PM being revocation of Article 50. It would end her politically of course. But her sense of duty - if its to the country and not the party - surely would shape her thinking.0 -
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Her form is not deciding but letting the choice be made for her. So whichever grouping in Parliament wrests the initiative can expect her passive support.Peter_the_Punter said:
Study the form. What's her form? It indicates she puts Party before Country. What damages her Party more, Revocation or a No Deal Brexit?RochdalePioneers said:
No - project fear was the Osborne frothing about the immediate impact on the markets of a leave vote. Which was a politician's view of events motivated by the desire to influence a vote. What we have now is project fact - industry isn't making up the effects of crash Brexit no matter how many times that morons say "project fear" in response.anothernick said:
I'd say it's 50 50 at the moment between no deal and a last-minute revokation as suggested here by Ms Beverley. It all depends on the level of panic in late March - it's not behind the bounds of possibility that parliament will revoke at 10 pm on March 29 if the forecasts of project fear have been proved correct by then.
I expect that the majority of "its all project fear" morons will change their minds as reality slams them in the gut. The minority won't as they are fixated on the ideology of their "prize". And we will be able to feel the effects before we crash out as business starts to pull the plugs out before the bomb drops. Whether thats enough to change opinions or not I don't know - I've said before that I can see May's final act as PM being revocation of Article 50. It would end her politically of course. But her sense of duty - if its to the country and not the party - surely would shape her thinking.0 -
Regrettably I see little evidence that May has a sense of duty to the country. If she had we would not be in this mess. Just like her predecessor she has always put party interests first. I think revocation would have to be forced on her by a vote in the Commons.RochdalePioneers said:
No - project fear was the Osborne frothing about the immediate impact on the markets of a leave vote. Which was a politician's view of events motivated by the desire to influence a vote. What we have now is project fact - industry isn't making up the effects of crash Brexit no matter how many times that morons say "project fear" in response.anothernick said:
I'd say it's 50 50 at the moment between no deal and a last-minute revokation as suggested here by Ms Beverley. It all depends on the level of panic in late March - it's not behind the bounds of possibility that parliament will revoke at 10 pm on March 29 if the forecasts of project fear have been proved correct by then.
I expect that the majority of "its all project fear" morons will change their minds as reality slams them in the gut. The minority won't as they are fixated on the ideology of their "prize". And we will be able to feel the effects before we crash out as business starts to pull the plugs out before the bomb drops. Whether thats enough to change opinions or not I don't know - I've said before that I can see May's final act as PM being revocation of Article 50. It would end her politically of course. But her sense of duty - if its to the country and not the party - surely would shape her thinking.0 -
Strongly disagree.Beverley_C said:
Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.Richard_Nabavi said:As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.
What is shambolic is trapping millions in poverty because work doesn't pay. Whatever the teething issues (of which there have been many) with UC its implementation has helped a record number of people enter work. It's no coincidence that reforms to make work pay rather than welfare paying better than work has then seen employment surge to record levels.
Any reform of this magnitude would have teething issues but not doing anything isn't the solution.0 -
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If ERG and DUP support the deal and it falls that would largely be labours responsibility and of course in that scenario the party would be more unified. Notwithstanding, Francois, Bridgen and others are still outside of my politics and hopefully post brexit they will start being sensible conservatives - but I will not hold my breathMorris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, what if almost all Con MPs backed the deal put it didn't pass?
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And meOldKingCole said:
Can I watch him being extradited? PLEASE!MarqueeMark said:
That will make up for him being a person of not much interest to the great majority of the British public.Scott_P said:0 -
If Parliament backs a compromise deal with the Brady amendment and the EU reject it then they've chosen No Deal.0
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And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.Beverley_C said:
Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.Richard_Nabavi said:As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.
https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
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QATAR !!!!!!!!!0
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Revoking A50 in this climate would have to have a majority HOC vote. Anything else would be unacceptableanothernick said:
Regrettably I see little evidence that May has a sense of duty to the country. If she had we would not be in this mess. Just like her predecessor she has always put party interests first. I think revocation would have to be forced on her by a vote in the Commons.RochdalePioneers said:
No - project fear was the Osborne frothing about the immediate impact on the markets of a leave vote. Which was a politician's view of events motivated by the desire to influence a vote. What we have now is project fact - industry isn't making up the effects of crash Brexit no matter how many times that morons say "project fear" in response.anothernick said:
I'd say it's 50 50 at the moment between no deal and a last-minute revokation as suggested here by Ms Beverley. It all depends on the level of panic in late March - it's not behind the bounds of possibility that parliament will revoke at 10 pm on March 29 if the forecasts of project fear have been proved correct by then.
I expect that the majority of "its all project fear" morons will change their minds as reality slams them in the gut. The minority won't as they are fixated on the ideology of their "prize". And we will be able to feel the effects before we crash out as business starts to pull the plugs out before the bomb drops. Whether thats enough to change opinions or not I don't know - I've said before that I can see May's final act as PM being revocation of Article 50. It would end her politically of course. But her sense of duty - if its to the country and not the party - surely would shape her thinking.0
