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  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    edited January 2019

    deleted
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    If Parliament backs a compromise deal with the Brady amendment and the EU reject it then they've chosen No Deal.

    Interesting definition of a compromise, where one party unilaterally renegotiates and presents a demand to the other party.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201


    I'd say it's 50 50 at the moment between no deal and a last-minute revokation as suggested here by Ms Beverley. It all depends on the level of panic in late March - it's not behind the bounds of possibility that parliament will revoke at 10 pm on March 29 if the forecasts of project fear have been proved correct by then.

    No - project fear was the Osborne frothing about the immediate impact on the markets of a leave vote. Which was a politician's view of events motivated by the desire to influence a vote. What we have now is project fact - industry isn't making up the effects of crash Brexit no matter how many times that morons say "project fear" in response.

    I expect that the majority of "its all project fear" morons will change their minds as reality slams them in the gut. The minority won't as they are fixated on the ideology of their "prize". And we will be able to feel the effects before we crash out as business starts to pull the plugs out before the bomb drops. Whether thats enough to change opinions or not I don't know - I've said before that I can see May's final act as PM being revocation of Article 50. It would end her politically of course. But her sense of duty - if its to the country and not the party - surely would shape her thinking.
    What are so many people not convinced, including respected Uni Profs if it is all so obvious?

    Should be the simplest argument in the world for "Project Opinion."
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,773

    Scott_P said:
    That will make up for him being a person of not much interest to the great majority of the British public.
    Can I watch him being extradited? PLEASE!
    And me
    You'll have to get him out of the Ecuadorean embassy first.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742
    edited January 2019

    If Parliament backs a compromise deal with the Brady amendment and the EU reject it then they've chosen No Deal.

    Interesting definition of a compromise, where one party unilaterally renegotiates and presents a demand to the other party.
    Well, that would be an internal Tory compromise, not a compromise with either the Labour party nor The EU27.

    May is so convinced of her own rectitude, and so rigid in her thinking, that she does not seem to do compromise. Has she compromised on anything in her career? She has certainly failed to implement things in her manifesto, but has she ever changed her mind?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,734
    edited January 2019

    If Parliament backs a compromise deal with the Brady amendment and the EU reject it then they've chosen No Deal.

    Interesting definition of a compromise, where one party unilaterally renegotiates and presents a demand to the other party.
    If parliament backs the Brady amendment, nullifying the existing WA, then it gives May a way to request an extension without it looking like she's giving in to those who want to stop Brexit. Never underestimate her can kicking abilities.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,734
    Foxy said:

    If Parliament backs a compromise deal with the Brady amendment and the EU reject it then they've chosen No Deal.

    Interesting definition of a compromise, where one party unilaterally renegotiates and presents a demand to the other party.
    Well, that would be an internal Tory compromise, not a compromise with either the Labour party nor The EU27.

    May is so convinced of her own rectitude, and so rigid in her thinking, that she does not seem to do compromise. Has she compromised on anything in her career? She has certainly failed to implement things in her manifesto, but has she ever changed hermind?
    One thing May understands is that you can stick to a position indefinitely, as long as you never deliver on it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    Strongly disagree.

    What is shambolic is trapping millions in poverty because work doesn't pay. Whatever the teething issues (of which there have been many) with UC its implementation has helped a record number of people enter work. It's no coincidence that reforms to make work pay rather than welfare paying better than work has then seen employment surge to record levels.

    Any reform of this magnitude would have teething issues but not doing anything isn't the solution.
    There speaks a fat and happy Tory, just wondering why the work house was not part of UC.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
    Full house of our right wing nutters.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,502

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
    The link doesn't suggests that there's reason for unalloyed pleasure. For example it says that 'two-thirds of the growth in employment since 2008 has been in ‘atypical’ roles such as self-employment, zero-hours contracts or agency work.' Although it must be conceded that the rate of growth in this are has slowed recently.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,734
    Leadsom starts to wobble on extending Article 50.

    https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1088844387185016839
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,502
    Foxy said:

    If Parliament backs a compromise deal with the Brady amendment and the EU reject it then they've chosen No Deal.

    Interesting definition of a compromise, where one party unilaterally renegotiates and presents a demand to the other party.
    Well, that would be an internal Tory compromise, not a compromise with either the Labour party nor The EU27.

    May is so convinced of her own rectitude, and so rigid in her thinking, that she does not seem to do compromise. Has she compromised on anything in her career? She has certainly failed to implement things in her manifesto, but has she ever changed her mind?
    The 2017 election?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited January 2019

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
    The govt may well be doing other things correctly, but that does not excuse the shambles of UC where even the simple act of being paid twice (4 weekly pay cycle in a 5 week month) can lose you significant amounts of money.

    If your abode, or your ability to put food on the table, was at risk from a badly implemented govt IT system, I suspect that you would be a lot less sanguine about the whole thing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,773
    Vernon Bogdanor on Labour:

    "There can be no comparison between the minuscule antisemitic threat from the far right and the widespread legitimisation of antisemitism by the Corbynite leadership of the Labour Party."

    "But I cannot understand how any supporter of equal citizenship can support the Labour Party in its current state"

    https://www.thejc.com/comment/analysis/corbyn-threat-is-much-greater-than-far-right-1.479120
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,502

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
    The govt may well be doing other things correctly, but that does not excuse the shambles of UC where even the simple act of being paid twice (4 weekly pay cycle in a 5 week month) can lose you significant amounts of money.

    If your abode, or your ability to put food on the table, was at risk from a badly implemented govt IT system, I suspect that you would be a lot less sanguine about the whole thing.
    In retrospect the decision to abort the comprehensive NHS IT system because it couldn't be guaranteed to work properly seems like a good idea.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    Strongly disagree.

    What is shambolic is trapping millions in poverty because work doesn't pay. Whatever the teething issues (of which there have been many) with UC its implementation has helped a record number of people enter work. It's no coincidence that reforms to make work pay rather than welfare paying better than work has then seen employment surge to record levels.

    Any reform of this magnitude would have teething issues but not doing anything isn't the solution.
    How "Victorian Mill Owner" of you! What is next on your agenda? Letting little match-girls die in the snow so that the rest of us can appreciate our good fortune that it was not us?

    People are not complaining about the principle of the thing, they are complaining that it takes no account of standard work practices and payment patterns and that sanctions by the system are automatic and instant and take months to sort out and when you are on the bottom of the heap, losing a big chunk of your income is a real problem.

  • As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
    The govt may well be doing other things correctly, but that does not excuse the shambles of UC where even the simple act of being paid twice (4 weekly pay cycle in a 5 week month) can lose you significant amounts of money.

    If your abode, or your ability to put food on the table, was at risk from a badly implemented govt IT system, I suspect that you would be a lot less sanguine about the whole thing.
    Those 'other' things are linked. The reforms of welfare are part of the solution which is working so well.

    Whether UC is a 'shambles' is a moot point. You only get to hear about the cases where it works out badly for particular individuals or groups. That's not to say there aren't problems which need to be fixed, as the government has acknowledged. Nor is it the case that there were never such problems under the old system.
  • malcolmg said:

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
    Full house of our right wing nutters.
    Which statement do you wish to prove wrong?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,734
    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/25/steve-bannon-is-high-ranking-trump-official-mentioned-in-roger-stone-indictment.html

    Former White House chief strategist and Trump campaign CEO Steve Bannon is the unidentified "high-ranking Trump campaign official" in special counsel Robert Mueller's indictment of Roger Stone, CNBC has learned.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Nabavi, aye. There are certain inherent biases in collective reporting/memory. Almost exclusively good music is remembered from the 1960s, and social services tend to only make the news when something horrific has happened.

    "Social worker does a really good job" is a headline that I'd be surprised to ever see.

    The central tenet of UC is sound, but it does appear that there are significant problems in execution.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
    The govt may well be doing other things correctly, but that does not excuse the shambles of UC where even the simple act of being paid twice (4 weekly pay cycle in a 5 week month) can lose you significant amounts of money.

    If your abode, or your ability to put food on the table, was at risk from a badly implemented govt IT system, I suspect that you would be a lot less sanguine about the whole thing.
    Those 'other' things are linked. The reforms of welfare are part of the solution which is working so well.

    Whether UC is a 'shambles' is a moot point. You only get to hear about the cases where it works out badly for particular individuals or groups. That's not to say there aren't problems which need to be fixed, as the government has acknowledged. Nor is it the case that there were never such problems under the old system.
    I am happy to admit that parts of the system work well and are an improvement, but they cannot be used to balance out the misery they inflict on those at the bottom when the system goes wrong.

    This is not a zero-sum game. There are people suffering because of this. You and I are not, but others are.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
    The govt may well be doing other things correctly, but that does not excuse the shambles of UC where even the simple act of being paid twice (4 weekly pay cycle in a 5 week month) can lose you significant amounts of money.

    If your abode, or your ability to put food on the table, was at risk from a badly implemented govt IT system, I suspect that you would be a lot less sanguine about the whole thing.
    In retrospect the decision to abort the comprehensive NHS IT system because it couldn't be guaranteed to work properly seems like a good idea.
    Indeed. :+1:
  • As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
    The link doesn't suggests that there's reason for unalloyed pleasure. For example it says that 'two-thirds of the growth in employment since 2008 has been in ‘atypical’ roles such as self-employment, zero-hours contracts or agency work.' Although it must be conceded that the rate of growth in this are has slowed recently.
    Indeed. It's a very good report, which actually looks at the facts dispassionately and has some very interesting information in it. Unfortunately it's got rather buried under Brexit noise, but it's well worth studying.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited January 2019
    Macron approval up yet again. Combination of his tour, and some good, old-fashioned rosbif-bashing?
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1088849900241076226
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,502

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    Strongly disagree.

    What is shambolic is trapping millions in poverty because work doesn't pay. Whatever the teething issues (of which there have been many) with UC its implementation has helped a record number of people enter work. It's no coincidence that reforms to make work pay rather than welfare paying better than work has then seen employment surge to record levels.

    Any reform of this magnitude would have teething issues but not doing anything isn't the solution.
    How "Victorian Mill Owner" of you! What is next on your agenda? Letting little match-girls die in the snow so that the rest of us can appreciate our good fortune that it was not us?

    People are not complaining about the principle of the thing, they are complaining that it takes no account of standard work practices and payment patterns and that sanctions by the system are automatic and instant and take months to sort out and when you are on the bottom of the heap, losing a big chunk of your income is a real problem.

    Exactly right. Friend of mine was talking about her experiences working at a food bank the other day, in what is generally regarded as quite an affluent town. What is so horrific (words used deliberately) is that very often it's not the claimants fault. Somewhere the system has gone awry.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,742
    Anorak said:

    Macron approval up yet again. Combination of his tour, and some good, old-fashioned rosbif-bashing?
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1088849900241076226

    The other element is that like the US shutdown, people get pissed off at disruption. I think the gilet jaune are less popular and representative than they think. Many French must be sick of them smashing the place up.

    Brexiteers take note, moods turn.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752

    Leadsom starts to wobble on extending Article 50.

    https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1088844387185016839

    A short extract from the interview which makes it slightly clearer what she's talking about:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47004279/andrea-leadsom-eu-could-grant-uk-more-time-on-brexit
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
    The govt may well be doing other things correctly, but that does not excuse the shambles of UC where even the simple act of being paid twice (4 weekly pay cycle in a 5 week month) can lose you significant amounts of money.

    If your abode, or your ability to put food on the table, was at risk from a badly implemented govt IT system, I suspect that you would be a lot less sanguine about the whole thing.
    Those 'other' things are linked. The reforms of welfare are part of the solution which is working so well.

    Whether UC is a 'shambles' is a moot point. You only get to hear about the cases where it works out badly for particular individuals or groups. That's not to say there aren't problems which need to be fixed, as the government has acknowledged. Nor is it the case that there were never such problems under the old system.
    A moot point?

    Your complacency is stunning.

    The problems with Universal Credit are at such a basic level - people paying rent weekly rather than monthly - that they go far beyond administration problems with previous systems.

    It's worth pointing out that problems like this prevent people from receiving the support the law as legislated for says that they should receive. But today your partisanship prevents you from acknowledging it.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, I thought this was a point worth noting:

    https://twitter.com/nxthompson/status/1088851204631875584
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    Strongly disagree.

    What is shambolic is trapping millions in poverty because work doesn't pay. Whatever the teething issues (of which there have been many) with UC its implementation has helped a record number of people enter work. It's no coincidence that reforms to make work pay rather than welfare paying better than work has then seen employment surge to record levels.

    Any reform of this magnitude would have teething issues but not doing anything isn't the solution.
    How "Victorian Mill Owner" of you! What is next on your agenda? Letting little match-girls die in the snow so that the rest of us can appreciate our good fortune that it was not us?

    People are not complaining about the principle of the thing, they are complaining that it takes no account of standard work practices and payment patterns and that sanctions by the system are automatic and instant and take months to sort out and when you are on the bottom of the heap, losing a big chunk of your income is a real problem.

    Exactly right. Friend of mine was talking about her experiences working at a food bank the other day, in what is generally regarded as quite an affluent town. What is so horrific (words used deliberately) is that very often it's not the claimants fault. Somewhere the system has gone awry.
    I think it is sometimes forgotten that the numbers in the system are actual people, some of whom are at their wits end.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    SeanT said:

    OMFG

    This is why Brexit.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/europe-coming-apart-before-our-eyes-say-30-top-intellectuals?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Thirty TOP INTELLECTUALS have written to the Guardian and told us why the EU is FAB.

    Not any old intellectuals, these are TOP intellectuals, and they say things like this:


    “We must rediscover political voluntarism or accept that resentment, hatred, and their cortege of sad passions will surround and submerge us.”

    That’s it’s, isn’t it? Brexit is done. Over. Finit. The TOP intellectuals have spoken and we must abandon our surrounding cortège of sad passions. I always thought that cortège would be an issue.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoy4_h7Pb3M
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Foxy said:

    Anorak said:

    Macron approval up yet again. Combination of his tour, and some good, old-fashioned rosbif-bashing?
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1088849900241076226

    The other element is that like the US shutdown, people get pissed off at disruption. I think the gilet jaune are less popular and representative than they think. Many French must be sick of them smashing the place up.
    Well, apart from smashing up the speed cameras. A good reason for many to don the yellow jacket...
  • As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    And yet inequality has fallen, more people than ever are in work, and there has been a quite spectacular decrease in unemployment amongst the most disadvantaged groups (especially the disabled). So the government seems to be doing something right.

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/setting-the-record-straight-how-record-employment-has-changed-the-uk/
    The govt may well be doing other things correctly, but that does not excuse the shambles of UC where even the simple act of being paid twice (4 weekly pay cycle in a 5 week month) can lose you significant amounts of money.

    If your abode, or your ability to put food on the table, was at risk from a badly implemented govt IT system, I suspect that you would be a lot less sanguine about the whole thing.
    Don't say that, I'd be terribly disappointed if Nabavi didn't ooze sanguine self satisfaction whatever his personal circs.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Don't say that, I'd be terribly disappointed if Nabavi didn't ooze sanguine self satisfaction whatever his personal circs.

    Where's your avi picture from? That's quite a shirt. Guessing it's not yours.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138
    SeanT said:

    OMFG

    This is why Brexit.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/europe-coming-apart-before-our-eyes-say-30-top-intellectuals?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Thirty TOP INTELLECTUALS have written to the Guardian and told us why the EU is FAB.

    Not any old intellectuals, these are TOP intellectuals, and they say things like this:


    “We must rediscover political voluntarism or accept that resentment, hatred, and their cortege of sad passions will surround and submerge us.”

    That’s it’s, isn’t it? Brexit is done. Over. Finit. The TOP intellectuals have spoken and we must abandon our surrounding cortège of sad passions. I always thought that cortège would be an issue.

    You have to fold them up carefully and wrap them in tissue paper.

    Oh, hold on a minute.

    That's "corsage".

    :)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Foxy said:

    Anorak said:

    Macron approval up yet again. Combination of his tour, and some good, old-fashioned rosbif-bashing?
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1088849900241076226

    The other element is that like the US shutdown, people get pissed off at disruption. I think the gilet jaune are less popular and representative than they think. Many French must be sick of them smashing the place up.

    Brexiteers take note, moods turn.
    Don't tell Alanbrooke. No one likes to see a grown man cry
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,734
    "There's one way for England to achieve Brexit – and that's by achieving independence from the UK"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/25/one-way-england-achieve-brexit-achieving-independence-uk/
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    "There's one way for England to achieve Brexit – and that's by achieving independence from the UK"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/25/one-way-england-achieve-brexit-achieving-independence-uk/

    Robert's oeuvre is quite somthing.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/robert-taylor/
  • Anorak said:

    Don't say that, I'd be terribly disappointed if Nabavi didn't ooze sanguine self satisfaction whatever his personal circs.

    Where's your avi picture from? That's quite a shirt. Guessing it's not yours.
    It's Holocaust denier & high profile defender of the Union, Alistair McConnachie.

    Here's a recent example of his rhetorical power.

    https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/1088134870570881024
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    No surprise Emperor Macron's ratings are up. First whiff of grapeshot from the people and he surrenders. What's not to like as far as a French poll respondent is concerned?
  • Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    Anorak said:

    Macron approval up yet again. Combination of his tour, and some good, old-fashioned rosbif-bashing?
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1088849900241076226

    The other element is that like the US shutdown, people get pissed off at disruption. I think the gilet jaune are less popular and representative than they think. Many French must be sick of them smashing the place up.

    Brexiteers take note, moods turn.
    Don't tell Alanbrooke. No one likes to see a grown man cry
    Hey Roger, entirely off topic (apart from discussions of our marvellous welfare system), but if you're talking to your Edinburgh South relative, compliment him on his office staff, particularly Emma. I'm trying to sort out the fuckup that is the life of my hapless brother, & she provided the first glimmer of hope in the ghastly mess.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    Don't say that, I'd be terribly disappointed if Nabavi didn't ooze sanguine self satisfaction whatever his personal circs.

    Where's your avi picture from? That's quite a shirt. Guessing it's not yours.
    It's Holocaust denier & high profile defender of the Union, Alistair McConnachie.
    Here's a recent example of his rhetorical power.
    Wow. A true intellectual titan.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited January 2019

    A moot point?

    Your complacency is stunning.

    The problems with Universal Credit are at such a basic level - people paying rent weekly rather than monthly - that they go far beyond administration problems with previous systems.

    It's worth pointing out that problems like this prevent people from receiving the support the law as legislated for says that they should receive. But today your partisanship prevents you from acknowledging it.

    No, I do acknowledge it. Unfortunately, partisanship drives much of the criticisms of UC.

    Again, I recommend the Resolution Foundation's work on this. They criticise the things that are going wrong, but in a balanced way. See, for example, this blog post (written before the 2018 Budget changes which addressed some of the concerns):

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/media/blog/universal-credit-the-honesty-we-owe-and-the-changes-we-need/
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Anorak said:

    Don't say that, I'd be terribly disappointed if Nabavi didn't ooze sanguine self satisfaction whatever his personal circs.

    Where's your avi picture from? That's quite a shirt. Guessing it's not yours.
    It's Holocaust denier & high profile defender of the Union, Alistair McConnachie.

    Here's a recent example of his rhetorical power.

    twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/1088134870570881024
    Astonishing. I never knew that rhetoric could be used like that .....

    :D:D:D:D:D
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Europe 'coming apart before our eyes', say 30 top intellectuals

    Group of historians and writers publish manifesto warning against rise of populism"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/europe-coming-apart-before-our-eyes-say-30-top-intellectuals?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,734
    edited January 2019

    Anorak said:

    Don't say that, I'd be terribly disappointed if Nabavi didn't ooze sanguine self satisfaction whatever his personal circs.

    Where's your avi picture from? That's quite a shirt. Guessing it's not yours.
    It's Holocaust denier & high profile defender of the Union, Alistair McConnachie.

    Here's a recent example of his rhetorical power.

    twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/1088134870570881024
    Astonishing. I never knew that rhetoric could be used like that .....

    :D:D:D:D:D
    It's all in the delivery.

    He could go on: "We are not merely a body of islands. We are an island of bodies..."
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,680
    Trumps caved according to 5 live. Ending shutdown temporarily.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    As for the goals of Universal Credit, they are well documented and are widely agreed in principle even by Labour.

    Whatever the goals are, the implementation and roll-out have been shambolic.
    Strongly disagree.

    What is shambolic is trapping millions in poverty because work doesn't pay. Whatever the teething issues (of which there have been many) with UC its implementation has helped a record number of people enter work. It's no coincidence that reforms to make work pay rather than welfare paying better than work has then seen employment surge to record levels.

    Any reform of this magnitude would have teething issues but not doing anything isn't the solution.
    How "Victorian Mill Owner" of you! What is next on your agenda? Letting little match-girls die in the snow so that the rest of us can appreciate our good fortune that it was not us?

    People are not complaining about the principle of the thing, they are complaining that it takes no account of standard work practices and payment patterns and that sanctions by the system are automatic and instant and take months to sort out and when you are on the bottom of the heap, losing a big chunk of your income is a real problem.

    Exactly right. Friend of mine was talking about her experiences working at a food bank the other day, in what is generally regarded as quite an affluent town. What is so horrific (words used deliberately) is that very often it's not the claimants fault. Somewhere the system has gone awry.
    I think it is sometimes forgotten that the numbers in the system are actual people, some of whom are at their wits end.
    Yep - some of the people that work in the system are absolute shits too.

    They seem to thrive on fecking peoples lives up.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138
    AndyJS said:

    "Europe 'coming apart before our eyes', say 30 top intellectuals

    Group of historians and writers publish manifesto warning against rise of populism"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/europe-coming-apart-before-our-eyes-say-30-top-intellectuals?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    @SeanT has already posted it. He doesn't like their Corteges. I like 70's Fords myself, but each to his own I s'pose.
  • Trumps caved according to 5 live. Ending shutdown temporarily.

    The final straw must be the closing of New York and other domestic airports

    However, one big win for Nancy
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. JS, that reminds me a bit of the capitulation of Richard II to the three dukes (think it was three) only to pick them off one by one afterwards and reassert himself, and the Charter of the Forest imposed on Henry III (or, for that matter, Magna Carta).

    In each instance, 'popular' (well, baronial/ducal) dissatisfaction with the ruler led to concessions that were diluted or, at least attempted, thrown out later.

    I wonder if we'll see that with the UK/EU.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Trumps caved according to 5 live. Ending shutdown temporarily.

    Looks like. Still not finalised, tho.
    https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1088863070171160576
  • Trumps caved according to 5 live. Ending shutdown temporarily.

    The final straw must be the closing of New York and other domestic airports

    However, one big win for Nancy
    His approval rating has taken a bit of a knock since the shutdown began. This puzzled me at first. It's withstood all his outrageous and scandalous behaviour in the past so I wondered why his loyal base wasn't ignoring this particular outrage. In fact it turns out the base does indeed remain loyal (or purblind, if you like) but it's the small band of uncommitted voters who are pinning the blame on him in a way they haven't before.


    Can't be many of them left, of course, so don't expect the rating to drop much further.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    SeanT said:

    OMFG

    This is why Brexit.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/europe-coming-apart-before-our-eyes-say-30-top-intellectuals?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Thirty TOP INTELLECTUALS have written to the Guardian and told us why the EU is FAB.

    Not any old intellectuals, these are TOP intellectuals, and they say things like this:


    “We must rediscover political voluntarism or accept that resentment, hatred, and their cortege of sad passions will surround and submerge us.”

    That’s it’s, isn’t it? Brexit is done. Over. Finit. The TOP intellectuals have spoken and we must abandon our surrounding cortège of sad passions. I always thought that cortège would be an issue.

    To be fair we truly do need to rediscover political voluntarism, because I don't know what that means.

    But perhaps the rest of it is easier for me to grasp.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Trumps caved according to 5 live. Ending shutdown temporarily.

    The final straw must be the closing of New York and other domestic airports

    However, one big win for Nancy
    His approval rating has taken a bit of a knock since the shutdown began. This puzzled me at first. It's withstood all his outrageous and scandalous behaviour in the past so I wondered why his loyal base wasn't ignoring this particular outrage. In fact it turns out the base does indeed remain loyal (or purblind, if you like) but it's the small band of uncommitted voters who are pinning the blame on him in a way they haven't before.


    Can't be many of them left, of course, so don't expect the rating to drop much further.
    Be careful if you're basing that on party identification. Remember that people who are pissed off at him might change their identification as well as their approval.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Foxy said:

    Anorak said:

    Macron approval up yet again. Combination of his tour, and some good, old-fashioned rosbif-bashing?
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1088849900241076226

    The other element is that like the US shutdown, people get pissed off at disruption. I think the gilet jaune are less popular and representative than they think. Many French must be sick of them smashing the place up.

    Brexiteers take note, moods turn.
    Yes, but the no dealers are banking on that being too late. Macron isn't' up against a ticking clock.
  • AndyJS said:

    "Europe 'coming apart before our eyes', say 30 top intellectuals

    Group of historians and writers publish manifesto warning against rise of populism"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/europe-coming-apart-before-our-eyes-say-30-top-intellectuals?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Well they got the title wrong. "EU coming apart before our eyes" is probably better. The 'populism' is a reaction against multiculturalism splitting societies.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    Anorak said:

    Macron approval up yet again. Combination of his tour, and some good, old-fashioned rosbif-bashing?
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1088849900241076226

    The other element is that like the US shutdown, people get pissed off at disruption. I think the gilet jaune are less popular and representative than they think. Many French must be sick of them smashing the place up.

    Brexiteers take note, moods turn.
    Don't tell Alanbrooke. No one likes to see a grown man cry
    Hey Roger, entirely off topic (apart from discussions of our marvellous welfare system), but if you're talking to your Edinburgh South relative, compliment him on his office staff, particularly Emma. I'm trying to sort out the fuckup that is the life of my hapless brother, & she provided the first glimmer of hope in the ghastly mess.
    Good to hear. At least one MP knows what they're doing! Just texted to pass your message on. I'm sure he'll be pleased.
  • XenonXenon Posts: 471
    edited January 2019
    Anorak said:
    Ugh old white people.
    A truly disgusting sight to all those on the left.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    notme2 said:

    Handy cnn being there for an armed raid on someone who has never offered resistance to voluntary interviews.

    It's not like american cops need an excuse to break out the big guns for a raid.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Crunching the Parliamentary numbers - all routes lead to the Deal, though there may be a few wrong turns along the way...

    https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/crunching-the-numbers-is-there-a-parliamentary-majority-for-anything/

    All routes to the deal, oh well, nothing to worry about then, I don;t know why there's been such a fuss.
  • Anorak said:

    Don't say that, I'd be terribly disappointed if Nabavi didn't ooze sanguine self satisfaction whatever his personal circs.

    Where's your avi picture from? That's quite a shirt. Guessing it's not yours.
    It's Holocaust denier & high profile defender of the Union, Alistair McConnachie.

    Here's a recent example of his rhetorical power.

    twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/1088134870570881024
    Astonishing. I never knew that rhetoric could be used like that .....

    :D:D:D:D:D
    It's all in the delivery.

    He could go on: "We are not merely a body of islands. We are an island of bodies..."
    The possibilities are endless: 'We are not only a bunch of cretins, but a cretinous bunch.'
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited January 2019
    Xenon said:

    Anorak said:
    Ugh old white people.
    A truly disgusting sight to all those on the left.
    I’m on the center right. If you wanted to show that Brexit is a nostalgia driven cause you could hardly have a better image. Backwards not forwards.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,773
    matt said:

    Xenon said:

    Anorak said:
    Ugh old white people.
    A truly disgusting sight to all those on the left.
    I’m on the center right. If you wanted to show that Brexit is a nostalgia driven cause you could hardly have a better image. Backwards not towards.

    As Nixon said, sort of, "what you gonna do, when you haven't got Brussels to kick around?"
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    matt said:

    Xenon said:

    Anorak said:
    Ugh old white people.
    A truly disgusting sight to all those on the left.
    I’m on the center right. If you wanted to show that Brexit is a nostalgia driven cause you could hardly have a better image. Backwards not towards.

    As Nixon said, sort of, "what you gonna do, when you haven't got Brussels to kick around?"
    Rage against the youth of today.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Is it worse that this does not even seem particularly surprising?

    Afghan President Ashraf Ghani says more than 45,000 members of the country's security forces have been killed since he became leader in 2014.

    The figure is far higher than previously thought, with Mr Ghani saying late last year that 28,000 had been killed since 2015.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47005558
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    Trumps caved according to 5 live. Ending shutdown temporarily.

    The final straw must be the closing of New York and other domestic airports

    However, one big win for Nancy
    His approval rating has taken a bit of a knock since the shutdown began. This puzzled me at first. It's withstood all his outrageous and scandalous behaviour in the past so I wondered why his loyal base wasn't ignoring this particular outrage. In fact it turns out the base does indeed remain loyal (or purblind, if you like) but it's the small band of uncommitted voters who are pinning the blame on him in a way they haven't before.


    Can't be many of them left, of course, so don't expect the rating to drop much further.
    I'm deffo up for joining the Arsonists of the Spirit and Soul Movement. Sounds very 1920's!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Xenon said:

    Anorak said:
    Ugh old white people.
    A truly disgusting sight to all those on the left.
    Tell me how that audience differs from one for the opera. Or the ballet.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,773
    matt said:

    matt said:

    Xenon said:

    Anorak said:
    Ugh old white people.
    A truly disgusting sight to all those on the left.
    I’m on the center right. If you wanted to show that Brexit is a nostalgia driven cause you could hardly have a better image. Backwards not towards.

    As Nixon said, sort of, "what you gonna do, when you haven't got Brussels to kick around?"
    Rage against the youth of today.
    Damned right. Bloody Teddy Boys.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780

    matt said:

    Xenon said:

    Anorak said:
    Ugh old white people.
    A truly disgusting sight to all those on the left.
    I’m on the center right. If you wanted to show that Brexit is a nostalgia driven cause you could hardly have a better image. Backwards not towards.

    As Nixon said, sort of, "what you gonna do, when you haven't got Brussels to kick around?"
    You may have boots and the feet they have been on in recent times confused there.

    The EU is mostly directed by the Germans, but would like to be directed by the French, and Brexit delivers that for them. The Italians were happy with the Germans being in charge - they liked the open chequebook, however the French running the show is another matter entirely. They've not forgotten that the French made an opportunist dash for Italian land and were only thwarted by the Americans.

    (There was a series on TV called 'Soap' - I think there are some parallels with the EU)
  • Xenon said:

    Anorak said:
    Ugh old white people.
    A truly disgusting sight to all those on the left.
    Not just on the left. This conservative member rejects all they stand for
  • I watched that Francois clip today and wondered what on earth gave anyone the impression that the Buccaneering Brexiteers are a bunch of reactionary, nationalist, backward-looking xenophobes.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    Xenon said:

    Anorak said:
    Ugh old white people.
    A truly disgusting sight to all those on the left.
    Not just on the left. This conservative member rejects all they stand for
    They are mostly too old to stand to pee.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    edited January 2019

    I watched that Francois clip today and wondered what on earth gave anyone the impression that the Buccaneering Brexiteers are a bunch of reactionary, nationalist, backward-looking xenophobes.

    How do you pronounce his name - is it Franco Is.....?
  • The shutdown in the US is worth watching more closely: wealthy, privileged members of the elite inflicting degrees of misery they will not experience on millions of ordinary people because false promises were made to win a vote. That’ll be us in a few weeks time.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,602
    edited January 2019
    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    OMFG

    This is why Brexit.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/europe-coming-apart-before-our-eyes-say-30-top-intellectuals?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Thirty TOP INTELLECTUALS have written to the Guardian and told us why the EU is FAB.

    Not any old intellectuals, these are TOP intellectuals, and they say things like this:


    “We must rediscover political voluntarism or accept that resentment, hatred, and their cortege of sad passions will surround and submerge us.”

    That’s it’s, isn’t it? Brexit is done. Over. Finit. The TOP intellectuals have spoken and we must abandon our surrounding cortège of sad passions. I always thought that cortège would be an issue.

    To be fair we truly do need to rediscover political voluntarism, because I don't know what that means.

    But perhaps the rest of it is easier for me to grasp.
    I should think the top intellectuals will be so busy manning the foodbank, stocking the night shelter, going door to door with leaflets about pot holes, running the Scouts and ringing the bell for early service that they will hardly have time to concoct a realistic and achievable plan for reordering Europe according to the visions of Dante, Goethe and Erasmus.

    And of course they will run into the Davos crowd every time they try to make the teas and coffees for the infants school PTA.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2019
    Anorak said:
    That doesn't look like an old audience to me, unless you're comparing it to the average age in central London.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    England getting spanked :E
  • AndyJS said:

    Anorak said:
    That doesn't look like an old audience to me, unless you're comparing it to the average age in central London.
    He wanted to get "gammon" in there, but couldn't shoehorn it in.
  • Pulpstar said:

    England getting spanked :E

    Thank you, Pulpstar, but we are maintaining a respectful silence about that on here.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited January 2019

    Pulpstar said:

    England getting spanked :E

    Thank you, Pulpstar, but we are maintaining a respectful silence about that on here.
    Why ?

    Underprepared.. wrong team picks .. someone should be screaming about it.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Pulpstar said:

    England getting spanked :E

    Thank you, Pulpstar, but we are maintaining a respectful silence about that on here.
    Why ?

    Underprepared.. wrong team picks .. someone should be screaming about it.
    I think the West Indies bowlers deserve some credit too. The match is after all a contest between two sides.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Pulpstar said:

    England getting spanked :E

    Thank you, Pulpstar, but we are maintaining a respectful silence about that on here.
    Why ?

    Underprepared.. wrong team picks .. someone should be screaming about it.
    I think the West Indies bowlers deserve some credit too. The match is after all a contest between two sides.
    not this test it isn't...
  • Pulpstar said:

    England getting spanked :E

    Thank you, Pulpstar, but we are maintaining a respectful silence about that on here.
    Why ?

    Underprepared.. wrong team picks .. someone should be screaming about it.
    Underprepared? Probably. Wrong team? You're really only talking about one selection - Curran for Broad. They can at least put that right for the next Test. On the last Ashes Tour there were a number of inexplicable selections in the squad, and they were stuck with them for the Tour.
  • kle4 said:

    notme2 said:

    Handy cnn being there for an armed raid on someone who has never offered resistance to voluntary interviews.

    It's not like american cops need an excuse to break out the big guns for a raid.
    Cost the BBC quite a few £££££ didn't it!
  • NEW THREAD
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138

    Xenon said:

    Anorak said:
    Ugh old white people.
    A truly disgusting sight to all those on the left.
    Tell me how that audience differs from one for the opera. Or the ballet.
    They have taste?

    Pause

    I'll get me coat...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138
    edited January 2019
    AndyJS said:

    Anorak said:
    That doesn't look like an old audience to me, unless you're comparing it to the average age in central London.
    I know PB has an older than average cohort, but even so that is still an older audience.

    However on further inspection it appears Meghan Markle is in the audience. Between the two bald heads. The ones at the front, that is...
This discussion has been closed.