politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » FBI officers in Florida make pre-dawn raid to arrest Trump ass

System · January 2019

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » FBI officers in Florida make pre-dawn raid to arrest Trump associate Roger Stone

“FBI. Open the door.”

Read the full story here

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

Lock him up.

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

Fire and Fury is great if you want some background on Stone.

Quincel · January 2019

Journalists being embedded with arresting police officers is really weird. It's not just an American thing, we do it too. It's just really weird.

TOPPING · January 2019

~~Second~~

Fourth.

Bloody gammons can't get anything right.

OblitusSumMe · January 2019

Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.

williamglenn · January 2019

How long until Mueller zeroes in on people closer to home?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/13/nigel-farage-mueller-russia-investigation-trump-latest-jerome-corsi-claim

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.

Aye. I fear Trump in the first of many white nationalist Presidents.

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

Wow, it seems like Eliot Ness is closing in on his Al Capone. Maybe they will get him for his unpublished tax returns

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

williamglenn said:
How long until Mueller zeroes in on people closer to home?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/13/nigel-farage-mueller-russia-investigation-trump-latest-jerome-corsi-claim

That Anglo-American extradition treaty is going to come in useful.

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

TheScreamingEagles said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Aye. I fear Trump in the first of many white nationalist Presidents.

I hope you are wrong. I see Trump and Brexit as the last hurrahs in the death throws of the international hatred filled disease called nationalism

Stereotomy · January 2019

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.

Yep. Liberals still haven't really gotten their heads around Trump being elected. They don't want to understand politics as a never-ending existential fight, just an amusing diversion while the big institutions keep chugging along in the status quo.

So now instead of truly wanting to fight, they just want teacher to come back into the classroom, set things straight, tell them that actually it's all okay and Trump never really won, and everything can go back to normal.

Richard_Nabavi · January 2019

Mind you, it is rather amusing to consider the juxtaposition WikiLeaks/Clinton against Guardian-NYT/Panama Papers.

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

TheScreamingEagles said:

williamglenn said:
How long until Mueller zeroes in on people closer to home?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/13/nigel-farage-mueller-russia-investigation-trump-latest-jerome-corsi-claim
That Anglo-American extradition treaty is going to come in useful.

On that I hope you are right. Nigel Farage, Donald Trump and Alex Salmond all in the dock. Is that too much to ask God?

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

I see there’s a Dem Congressman with a worse grasp of history than Hollywood/Morris Dancer

https://twitter.com/peterwelch/status/1087829080316301313?s=21

https://twitter.com/peterwelch/status/1087857790901735426?s=21

TheJezziah · January 2019

TheScreamingEagles said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Aye. I fear Trump in the first of many white nationalist Presidents.

I think enough republican voters, for all I think their party and fox news are the devil are decent enough people that they would turn away from the party and it would struggle to win.

I was amazed when I checked back on an old forum I used to go on of an American guy that was a solid republican (although the reasonable sounding type rather than Fox news one) had joined the democrats.

Demographic changes make the amount of white people needed too much to sustain racist presidents for too long. You just need too many racist white people. White people outnumber the rest but I feel like those prepared to accept white nationalism is too small a percentage to overpower the rest plus many minority voters.

On topic incredible stuff, what must the non-Trump supporting Republicans (those who haven't left) be thinking about all this?

Quincel · January 2019

Stereotomy said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Yep. Liberals still haven't really gotten their heads around Trump being elected. They don't want to understand politics as a never-ending existential fight, just an amusing diversion while the big institutions keep chugging along in the status quo.

So now instead of truly wanting to fight, they just want teacher to come back into the classroom, set things straight, tell them that actually it's all okay and Trump never really won, and everything can go back to normal.

I see this kind of argument a lot, that the US left didn't understand the Trump coalition and won't win until it does. I agree with the first half, but not the second. After all, it's not like Trump won by showing understanding of the Obama coalition. Nor Obama the Bush coalition. They all recognised where politics was moving to, not where it was at; and they all actively moved it there at the same time.

You don't win elections by refighting the last battle. And while Trump may or may not be followed by other like him, I don't think it's obvious that he will unless his opponents understand his coalition. That's not how it worked for his predecessors.

Richard_Nabavi · January 2019

I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?

Dura_Ace · January 2019

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.

It'll never come to that. He'll quit in exchange for a pardon if they get close to cracking Don Jr.

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

TheScreamingEagles said:
I see there’s a Dem Congressman with a worse grasp of history than Hollywood/Morris Dancer

https://twitter.com/peterwelch/status/1087829080316301313?s=21

https://twitter.com/peterwelch/status/1087857790901735426?s=21

Oh dear.

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

Richard_Nabavi said:
I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?

Not sure, I think not. Americans have a very different view of workers rights even in their public sector. I once had an American ask me what "redundancy" meant. They genuinely don't have it as a concept.

TheJezziah · January 2019

Richard_Nabavi said:
I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?

First part my understanding is yes. Second part I don't know.

I am curious about interest on that back pay though...

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

Richard_Nabavi said:
I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?

Congress traditionally ensures they get their back-pay when an agreement has been reached to end a shutdown.

But by the terms of their contract of employment they are NOT guaranteed to get that money.

Pulpstar · January 2019

He'll run, and he'll lose.

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

If Farage is arrested, can it please be the case that it is done while he is in Brussels so that a European Arrest Warrant can be issued (sorry to keep making these requests God)

OblitusSumMe · January 2019

Richard_Nabavi said:
I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?

I *think* this depends on the detail written into the budget that is eventually passed to fund the government again. So there's no set answer and it's part of the haggle.

TheJezziah · January 2019

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Nabavi said:
I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?
Congress traditionally ensures they get back their back-pay when an agreement has been reached to end a shutdown.

But by the terms of their contract of employment they are NOT guaranteed to get that money.

Alaska is one of the most affected states (I read somewhere) a solid red state. So the republicans have their own partisan reasons not to refuse these people their money and the democrats aren't generally insane. No guarantee but they can be pretty sure of it given the politics.

Stereotomy · January 2019

Quincel said:

Stereotomy said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Yep. Liberals still haven't really gotten their heads around Trump being elected. They don't want to understand politics as a never-ending existential fight, just an amusing diversion while the big institutions keep chugging along in the status quo.

So now instead of truly wanting to fight, they just want teacher to come back into the classroom, set things straight, tell them that actually it's all okay and Trump never really won, and everything can go back to normal.
I see this kind of argument a lot, that the US left didn't understand the Trump coalition and won't win until it does. I agree with the first half, but not the second. After all, it's not like Trump won by showing understanding of the Obama coalition. Nor Obama the Bush coalition. They all recognised where politics was moving to, not where it was at; and they all actively moved it there at the same time.

You don't win elections by refighting the last battle. And while Trump may or may not be followed by other like him, I don't think it's obvious that he will unless his opponents understand his coalition. That's not how it worked for his predecessors.

I agree with you, and that actually wasn't what I was saying at all, although maybe I didn't make that clear. I'm not saying that the Dems need to understand or compromise with Trumpism. I'm saying that liberals (mostly Dems but also a few of the more centrist republicans- e.g. Never-Trumpers) believe that there's a consensus, and that consensus has achieved an unassailable dominance so they don't really need to fight for it at all. Trump doesn't fit into that belief because it implies he could never be elected, so to maintain their belief, liberals have to tell themselves he never was elected- not really, not legitimately- or perhaps that he was elected but that doesn't count as winning because he can't get his agenda through Congress. They think of Trump as a collective nightmare that eventually we'll all wake up from.

It's the same misunderstanding that lead Obama to come up with a compromise position for healthcare then keep compromising it further and further while the GOP just banked his concessions then continued screaming about socialism. It's because liberals in the US don't truly see politics as an existential struggle, where you have to fight tooth and nail to survive, whereas conservatives do.

Nigelb · January 2019

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Nabavi said:
I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?
Congress traditionally ensures they get their back-pay when an agreement has been reached to end a shutdown.

But by the terms of their contract of employment they are NOT guaranteed to get that money.

True, but I believe that it's already been stated that this time, they will.

(edit)
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/10/18176849/furloughed-federal-employees-back-pay

Nigelb · January 2019

Of course that doesn't stop the administration being completely tone deaf:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/01/wilbur-ross-larry-kudlow-government-shutdown-food-banks.html

Richard_Nabavi · January 2019

Nigelb said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Nabavi said:
I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?
Congress traditionally ensures they get their back-pay when an agreement has been reached to end a shutdown.

But by the terms of their contract of employment they are NOT guaranteed to get that money.
True, but I believe that it's already been stated that this time, they will.

(edit)
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/10/18176849/furloughed-federal-employees-back-pay

Ah thanks, that link answers the question.

Scott_P · January 2019

https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/1088787612020686848

Quincel · January 2019

Stereotomy said:

Quincel said:

Stereotomy said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Yep. Liberals still haven't really gotten their heads around Trump being elected. They don't want to understand politics as a never-ending existential fight, just an amusing diversion while the big institutions keep chugging along in the status quo.

So now instead of truly wanting to fight, they just want teacher to come back into the classroom, set things straight, tell them that actually it's all okay and Trump never really won, and everything can go back to normal.
I see this kind of argument a lot, that the US left didn't understand the Trump coalition and won't win until it does. I agree with the first half, but not the second. After all, it's not like Trump won by showing understanding of the Obama coalition. Nor Obama the Bush coalition. They all recognised where politics was moving to, not where it was at; and they all actively moved it there at the same time.

You don't win elections by refighting the last battle. And while Trump may or may not be followed by other like him, I don't think it's obvious that he will unless his opponents understand his coalition. That's not how it worked for his predecessors.
I agree with you, and that actually wasn't what I was saying at all, although maybe I didn't make that clear. I'm not saying that the Dems need to understand or compromise with Trumpism. I'm saying that liberals (mostly Dems but also a few of the more centrist republicans- e.g. Never-Trumpers) believe that there's a consensus, and that consensus has achieved an unassailable dominance so they don't really need to fight for it at all. Trump doesn't fit into that belief because it implies he could never be elected, so to maintain their belief, liberals have to tell themselves he never was elected- not really, not legitimately- or perhaps that he was elected but that doesn't count as winning because he can't get his agenda through Congress. They think of Trump as a collective nightmare that eventually we'll all wake up from.

It's the same misunderstanding that lead Obama to come up with a compromise position for healthcare then keep compromising it further and further while the GOP just banked his concessions then continued screaming about socialism. It's because liberals in the US don't truly see politics as an existential struggle, where you have to fight tooth and nail to survive, whereas conservatives do.

Kk, it was my misunderstanding. We both agree with each other's points.

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

Ooopsie

https://twitter.com/steventdennis/status/1088785962484842496?s=21

DavidL · January 2019

So if I sent a "well done" text to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer for his revival of United's disastrous season I would be "looped in" to Man U?

Colour me unconvinced. Of course this does not mean that he has not done things for or on behalf of the Donald that Mueller would find of interest. Trump is getting to be quite a dangerous man to know.

Nigelb · January 2019

Stereotomy said:

I agree with you, and that actually wasn't what I was saying at all, although maybe I didn't make that clear. I'm not saying that the Dems need to understand or compromise with Trumpism. I'm saying that liberals (mostly Dems but also a few of the more centrist republicans- e.g. Never-Trumpers) believe that there's a consensus, and that consensus has achieved an unassailable dominance so they don't really need to fight for it at all. Trump doesn't fit into that belief because it implies he could never be elected, so to maintain their belief, liberals have to tell themselves he never was elected- not really, not legitimately- or perhaps that he was elected but that doesn't count as winning because he can't get his agenda through Congress. They think of Trump as a collective nightmare that eventually we'll all wake up from.

It's the same misunderstanding that lead Obama to come up with a compromise position for healthcare then keep compromising it further and further while the GOP just banked his concessions then continued screaming about socialism. It's because liberals in the US don't truly see politics as an existential struggle, where you have to fight tooth and nail to survive, whereas conservatives do.

I get the strong impression that the Democrats have had enough of such triangulation - and its notable that (for example) universal healthcare and increased higher tax rates are getting very strong polling support.
The nomination battle will be very much about where to strike the balance - but already some of those thought of as centrists are positioning themselves as more progressive.

kinabalu · January 2019

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.

To drain the swamp we need him running for a 2nd term and knocked out of the park on votes and electoral college.

After that, yes, serious prison time and confiscation of assets.

Horrible creature.

DavidL · January 2019

Richard_Nabavi said:
I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?

Yes, according to the vox pops that have been on R5. Of course even if they are not working they are willing and able to do so, so it is the employer who is not taking up its rights. That does not excuse them from having to pay those willing to perform.

viewcode · January 2019

Stereotomy said:

Quincel said:

Stereotomy said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Yep. Liberals still haven't really gotten their heads around Trump being elected. They don't want to understand politics as a never-ending existential fight, just an amusing diversion while the big institutions keep chugging along in the status quo.

So now instead of truly wanting to fight, they just want teacher to come back into the classroom, set things straight, tell them that actually it's all okay and Trump never really won, and everything can go back to normal.
I see this kind of argument a lot, that the US left didn't understand the Trump coalition and won't win until it does. I agree with the first half, but not the second. After all, it's not like Trump won by showing understanding of the Obama coalition. Nor Obama the Bush coalition. They all recognised where politics was moving to, not where it was at; and they all actively moved it there at the same time.

You don't win elections by refighting the last battle. And while Trump may or may not be followed by other like him, I don't think it's obvious that he will unless his opponents understand his coalition. That's not how it worked for his predecessors.
I agree with you, and that actually wasn't what I was saying at all, although maybe I didn't make that clear. I'm not saying that the Dems need to understand or compromise with Trumpism. I'm saying that liberals (mostly Dems but also a few of the more centrist republicans- e.g. Never-Trumpers) believe that there's a consensus, and that consensus has achieved an unassailable dominance so they don't really need to fight for it at all. Trump doesn't fit into that belief because it implies he could never be elected, so to maintain their belief, liberals have to tell themselves he never was elected- not really, not legitimately- or perhaps that he was elected but that doesn't count as winning because he can't get his agenda through Congress. They think of Trump as a collective nightmare that eventually we'll all wake up from.

It's the same misunderstanding that lead Obama to come up with a compromise position for healthcare then keep compromising it further and further while the GOP just banked his concessions then continued screaming about socialism. It's because liberals in the US don't truly see politics as an existential struggle, where you have to fight tooth and nail to survive, whereas conservatives do.

Horribly true. A lot of people like Trump, will vote for him again, and he may yet win again thru entirely legitimate means. The world is not nice and never has been.

SandyRentool · January 2019

Are there any associates of Trump who haven't had their collars felt?

He appears to have got in with a pretty bad crowd.

Xenon · January 2019

This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

The Russians favoured Trump and Sanders over Hilary and had a small social media presence pushing their preferred candidates. So what exactly?

TheJezziah · January 2019

kinabalu said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
To drain the swamp we need him running for a 2nd term and knocked out of the park on votes and electoral college.

After that, yes, serious prison time and confiscation of assets.

Horrible creature.

This is my thinking.

Best to see him defeated in a fair election rather than taken off to prison or taken out of the running in some way to give his crazy fans a n excuse to feel hard done by.

They would still cry foul but at least they would look like bad losers.

Then justice.

Nigelb · January 2019

FPT

rottenborough said:
Lessons from FL:

“The lesson for the Democrats is that, in going for the heart and soul of the progressive base, it can antagonize the other side. So what you gain in one place, you lose in another,” Tyson said. “We’ve seen the coalescing of the white vote and unless something happens to break this lock on white voters — and especially white independent males over 50 — I don’t expect Trump to lose in 2020.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/25/trump-2020-elections-florida-1125442

...

Says Ryan Tyson, "a top Florida Republican political consultant and data analyst".

Not entirely persuasive...

Casino_Royale · January 2019

Nigel_Foremain said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Aye. I fear Trump in the first of many white nationalist Presidents.
I hope you are wrong. I see Trump and Brexit as the last hurrahs in the death throws of the international hatred filled disease called nationalism

There are no last hurrahs.

This is part of the new politics that is going to be with us, now, for some time. As will the ideologically internationalist on the other side.

Casino_Royale · January 2019

Nigel_Foremain said:

Richard_Nabavi said:
I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?
Not sure, I think not. Americans have a very different view of workers rights even in their public sector. I once had an American ask me what "redundancy" meant. They genuinely don't have it as a concept.

Doesn’t sound like much fun.

I’d be in trouble if I even missed one months salary cheque.

DavidL · January 2019

Xenon said:
This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

The Russians favoured Trump and Sanders over Hilary and had a small social media presence pushing their preferred candidates. So what exactly?

I think that that is quite a difficult line to maintain when Mueller continues to get indictments, pleas and some fairly hefty sentences.

Nigelb · January 2019

TheJezziah said:

kinabalu said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
To drain the swamp we need him running for a 2nd term and knocked out of the park on votes and electoral college.

After that, yes, serious prison time and confiscation of assets.

Horrible creature.
This is my thinking.

Best to see him defeated in a fair election rather than taken off to prison or taken out of the running in some way to give his crazy fans a n excuse to feel hard done by.

They would still cry foul but at least they would look like bad losers.

Then justice.

Robert Redford agrees with you...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-democracy-is-in-crisis-we-must-focus-on-2020--not-impeachment/2019/01/24/b51f1268-1ff6-11e9-9145-3f74070bbdb9_story.html

...now what movie of some relevance to the current situation was he in?

williamglenn · January 2019

Casino_Royale said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Aye. I fear Trump in the first of many white nationalist Presidents.
I hope you are wrong. I see Trump and Brexit as the last hurrahs in the death throws of the international hatred filled disease called nationalism
There are no last hurrahs.

This is part of the new politics that is going to be with us, now, for some time. As will the ideologically internationalist on the other side.

Do you feel you're part of a global movement to defeat globalism?

Nigelb · January 2019

DavidL said:

Xenon said:
This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

The Russians favoured Trump and Sanders over Hilary and had a small social media presence pushing their preferred candidates. So what exactly?
I think that that is quite a difficult line to maintain when Mueller continues to get indictments, pleas and some fairly hefty sentences.

A good 20-odd% of the electorate should prove capable of doing so, if Watergate is any guide.

Nigelb · January 2019

SandyRentool said:
Are there any associates of Trump who haven't had their collars felt?

A few, but these things take their time.

MJW · January 2019

Stereotomy said:

Quincel said:

Stereotomy said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.

So now instead of truly wanting to fight, they just want teacher to come back into the classroom, set things straight, tell them that actually it's all okay and Trump never really won, and everything can go back to normal.
You don't win elections by refighting the last battle. And while Trump may or may not be followed by other like him, I don't think it's obvious that he will unless his opponents understand his coalition. That's not how it worked for his predecessors.

It's the same misunderstanding that lead Obama to come up with a compromise position for healthcare then keep compromising it further and further while the GOP just banked his concessions then continued screaming about socialism. It's because liberals in the US don't truly see politics as an existential struggle, where you have to fight tooth and nail to survive, whereas conservatives do.

I think that was true - but Trump, and perhaps more importantly, the Republican manoeuvring around him that has shown them to be utterly unscrupulous in pursuing their agenda (something, which to be fair, goes back to the Obama and Bush years - see gerrymandering), has snapped something.

For example, the Supreme Court was always a big issue for conservatives - to the point that that they support a man as vile and dangerous as Trump as long as he promises to put right-wingers on the court. Liberals never used to get that - see the lack of enthusiasm for Clinton - when, regardless of whether you like her, her losing could potentially mean a conservative majority on the court for two generations. Apart from a few 'full communism now' idiots they really do get it now - it's risen as an important issue in polling due to Kavaunagh. Likewise, the Democrats had far stronger down ballot campaigns last November - as there was a realisation it mattered for redistricting in 2020. We've seen it with the recent shutdown, where Dems aren't budging an inch and yet are winning public opinion.

Similarly, with the exception of possibly Biden, every 2020 Dem candidate will go into the election with populist transformative policies. Providing the Dems do win in 2020, and it's obviously a big if, one of politics great ironies maybe that by pushing liberals too far with Trump and other assorted outrages (Garland, McConnell's obstructionism, repeatedly trying to gut Obamacare), conservatives may have dug their own graves by awakening them from inertia and killing the traditional desire to compromise.

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

Nigelb said:

TheJezziah said:

kinabalu said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
To drain the swamp we need him running for a 2nd term and knocked out of the park on votes and electoral college.

After that, yes, serious prison time and confiscation of assets.

Horrible creature.
This is my thinking.

Best to see him defeated in a fair election rather than taken off to prison or taken out of the running in some way to give his crazy fans a n excuse to feel hard done by.

They would still cry foul but at least they would look like bad losers.

Then justice.
Robert Redford agrees with you...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-democracy-is-in-crisis-we-must-focus-on-2020--not-impeachment/2019/01/24/b51f1268-1ff6-11e9-9145-3f74070bbdb9_story.html

...now what movie of some relevance to the current situation was he in?

Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid?

Casino_Royale · January 2019

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Aye. I fear Trump in the first of many white nationalist Presidents.
I hope you are wrong. I see Trump and Brexit as the last hurrahs in the death throws of the international hatred filled disease called nationalism
There are no last hurrahs.

This is part of the new politics that is going to be with us, now, for some time. As will the ideologically internationalist on the other side.
Do you feel you're part of a global movement to defeat globalism?

No.

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

Anyone keeping a track of how many witches have pleaded guilty to witchcraft in this witch hunt?

Charles · January 2019

Nigel_Foremain said:

Richard_Nabavi said:
I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?
Not sure, I think not. Americans have a very different view of workers rights even in their public sector. I once had an American ask me what "redundancy" meant. They genuinely don't have it as a concept.

It’s an “at will” arrangement on both sides (hence no notice or gardening leave)

kinabalu · January 2019

DavidL said:
So if I sent a "well done" text to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer for his revival of United's disastrous season I would be "looped in" to Man U?

Colour me unconvinced.

No. The analogy would be that you are a 'consultant' for Man Utd and you receive a text message from a close associate of the Glazers saying "well done" immediately after wikileaks has released a bunch of dirt on Chelsea.

Is this persuasive evidence that Man Utd were looped in to an attempt to discredit Chelsea?

On the face of it, yes.

DavidL · January 2019

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:

Xenon said:
This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

The Russians favoured Trump and Sanders over Hilary and had a small social media presence pushing their preferred candidates. So what exactly?
I think that that is quite a difficult line to maintain when Mueller continues to get indictments, pleas and some fairly hefty sentences.
A good 20-odd% of the electorate should prove capable of doing so, if Watergate is any guide.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I remember Ken Starr's fairly ridiculous pursuit of the Clintons when the boot was on the other foot. Politically motivated justice is no justice at all. But here actual crimes and misdemeanors are being established and the dominoes are falling, one after the other.

TheJezziah · January 2019

Nigelb said:

TheJezziah said:

kinabalu said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
To drain the swamp we need him running for a 2nd term and knocked out of the park on votes and electoral college.

After that, yes, serious prison time and confiscation of assets.

Horrible creature.
This is my thinking.

Best to see him defeated in a fair election rather than taken off to prison or taken out of the running in some way to give his crazy fans a n excuse to feel hard done by.

They would still cry foul but at least they would look like bad losers.

Then justice.
Robert Redford agrees with you...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-democracy-is-in-crisis-we-must-focus-on-2020--not-impeachment/2019/01/24/b51f1268-1ff6-11e9-9145-3f74070bbdb9_story.html

...now what movie of some relevance to the current situation was he in?

The main one I can think of involves a military prison but I'm not sure we can trick Trump into shooting him as he tries to fly the American flag...

Nigelb · January 2019

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:

TheJezziah said:

kinabalu said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
To drain the swamp we need him running for a 2nd term and knocked out of the park on votes and electoral college.

After that, yes, serious prison time and confiscation of assets.

Horrible creature.
This is my thinking.

Best to see him defeated in a fair election rather than taken off to prison or taken out of the running in some way to give his crazy fans a n excuse to feel hard done by.

They would still cry foul but at least they would look like bad losers.

Then justice.
Robert Redford agrees with you...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-democracy-is-in-crisis-we-must-focus-on-2020--not-impeachment/2019/01/24/b51f1268-1ff6-11e9-9145-3f74070bbdb9_story.html

...now what movie of some relevance to the current situation was he in?
Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid?

The Sting...

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

Charles said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Richard_Nabavi said:
I have a question ion the US federal shutdown - do those employees who are not being paid eventually get all of their back-pay, and if so is that the case even if they are not classed as 'essential workers' and are therefore not currently working?
Not sure, I think not. Americans have a very different view of workers rights even in their public sector. I once had an American ask me what "redundancy" meant. They genuinely don't have it as a concept.
It’s an “at will” arrangement on both sides (hence no notice or gardening leave)

Yes, they fire "at will", which always makes me sorry for William

Nigelb · January 2019

Incidentally, Manafort is in court again this afternoon.
Could be interesting.

TheJezziah · January 2019

MJW said:

Stereotomy said:

Quincel said:

Stereotomy said:

OblitusSumMe said:

I think that was true - but Trump, and perhaps more importantly, the Republican manoeuvring around him that has shown them to be utterly unscrupulous in pursuing their agenda (something, which to be fair, goes back to the Obama and Bush years - see gerrymandering), has snapped something.

For example, the Supreme Court was always a big issue for conservatives - to the point that that they support a man as vile and dangerous as Trump as long as he promises to put right-wingers on the court. Liberals never used to get that - see the lack of enthusiasm for Clinton - when, regardless of whether you like her, her losing could potentially mean a conservative majority on the court for two generations. Apart from a few 'full communism now' idiots they really do get it now - it's risen as an important issue in polling due to Kavaunagh. Likewise, the Democrats had far stronger down ballot campaigns last November - as there was a realisation it mattered for redistricting in 2020. We've seen it with the recent shutdown, where Dems aren't budging an inch and yet are winning public opinion.

Similarly, with the exception of possibly Biden, every 2020 Dem candidate will go into the election with populist transformative policies. Providing the Dems do win in 2020, and it's obviously a big if, one of politics great ironies maybe that by pushing liberals too far with Trump and other assorted outrages (Garland, McConnell's obstructionism, repeatedly trying to gut Obamacare), conservatives may have dug their own graves by awakening them from inertia and killing the traditional desire to compromise.

Good. I am all for compromise and playing nice, it is much preferable and will result in getting things done usually but the Democrats do not have reasonable opponents. There are some Republicans who aren't lunatics but the party is generally so far of the reservation that you just cannot work with these people.

Defeat the republicans where you can and limit their damage where you can't.

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

SandyRentool said:
Are there any associates of Trump who haven't had their collars felt?

He appears to have got in with a pretty bad crowd.

Particularly surprising seeing as he seems such a decent minded man. Oh, and he has a very high IQ, according to him

DavidL · January 2019

kinabalu said:

DavidL said:
So if I sent a "well done" text to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer for his revival of United's disastrous season I would be "looped in" to Man U?

Colour me unconvinced.
No. The analogy would be that you are a 'consultant' for Man Utd and you receive a text message from a close associate of the Glazers saying "well done" immediately after wikileaks has released a bunch of dirt on Chelsea.

Is this persuasive evidence that Man Utd were looped in to an attempt to discredit Chelsea?

On the face of it, yes.

Not sure it is. Welcoming something is not the same as causing it. But there may be more to it.

Nigelb · January 2019

These are awful ratings for Trump...
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/25/trump-voters-report-card-1124761

...20% approval for 'draining the swamp'.

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

DavidL said:

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:

Xenon said:
This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

The Russians favoured Trump and Sanders over Hilary and had a small social media presence pushing their preferred candidates. So what exactly?
I think that that is quite a difficult line to maintain when Mueller continues to get indictments, pleas and some fairly hefty sentences.
A good 20-odd% of the electorate should prove capable of doing so, if Watergate is any guide.
I'm not entirely unsympathetic. I remember Ken Starr's fairly ridiculous pursuit of the Clintons when the boot was on the other foot. Politically motivated justice is no justice at all. But here actual crimes and misdemeanors are being established and the dominoes are falling, one after the other.

The other factor here is that Mueller is a registered Republican.

Kenneth Starr was former Republican Sol Gen pursuing a Dem President.

NickPalmer · January 2019

Quincel said:
Journalists being embedded with arresting police officers is really weird. It's not just an American thing, we do it too. It's just really weird.

It's not just weird, it's wrong - it imperils fair trial. The media should have as little as possible to do with cases before they come to trial, not blazoning their names and faces across our consciousness as they are dragged off.

Xenon · January 2019

DavidL said:

Xenon said:
This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

The Russians favoured Trump and Sanders over Hilary and had a small social media presence pushing their preferred candidates. So what exactly?
I think that that is quite a difficult line to maintain when Mueller continues to get indictments, pleas and some fairly hefty sentences.

Just a load of trumped up charges, mostly about lying during the investigation or completely unrelated matters. Which is what you expect if you look at any election spending too closely (I can't imagine what you would find if you investigated say the Clintons this thoroughly).

Someone please explain what is wrong with working with the Russians during the election?

It's all about getting Trump out of office because they don't like him and can't accept that he won the election.

Tissue_Price · January 2019

A chart-and-a-half, this - at PPP exchange rates Venezuelans were apparently richer than Americans in the late 1950s:
https://humanprogress.org/dwline?p=201&c0=107&c1=2&yf=1950&yl=2017&high=1&reg=3&reg1=0

kinabalu · January 2019

DavidL said:
Not sure it is. Welcoming something is not the same as causing it. But there may be more to it.

Saying "well done" to somebody (about something) implies that that somebody played a part in that something.

Stone received the text message remember.

williamglenn · January 2019

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1088764676266172416

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

Casino_Royale said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Aye. I fear Trump in the first of many white nationalist Presidents.
I hope you are wrong. I see Trump and Brexit as the last hurrahs in the death throws of the international hatred filled disease called nationalism
There are no last hurrahs.

This is part of the new politics that is going to be with us, now, for some time. As will the ideologically internationalist on the other side.

No, nationalism is fundamentally intellectually bankrupt, and when people begin to feel its effects in the aftermath of Trump and his trade wars and the damage caused by Brexit, it will be consigned back to the basket case that it belongs in, for at least another 50 years when it will remerge again when people have forgotten the hatred and damage it causes. We will have to live with its stupidity for another 10 years. Hopefully it does not allow its equally damaging cousin socialism to creep in as a phony antidote.

Nigelb · January 2019

DavidL said:

kinabalu said:

DavidL said:
So if I sent a "well done" text to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer for his revival of United's disastrous season I would be "looped in" to Man U?

Colour me unconvinced.
No. The analogy would be that you are a 'consultant' for Man Utd and you receive a text message from a close associate of the Glazers saying "well done" immediately after wikileaks has released a bunch of dirt on Chelsea.

Is this persuasive evidence that Man Utd were looped in to an attempt to discredit Chelsea?

On the face of it, yes.
Not sure it is. Welcoming something is not the same as causing it. But there may be more to it.

If the Glazers had spent the previous couple of weeks publicly calling for Wikileaks to release the dirt...

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

Xenon said:

DavidL said:

Xenon said:
This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

The Russians favoured Trump and Sanders over Hilary and had a small social media presence pushing their preferred candidates. So what exactly?
I think that that is quite a difficult line to maintain when Mueller continues to get indictments, pleas and some fairly hefty sentences.
Just a load of trumped up charges, mostly about lying during the investigation or completely unrelated matters. Which is what you expect if you look at any election spending too closely (I can't imagine what you would find if you investigated say the Clintons this thoroughly).

Someone please explain what is wrong with working with the Russians during the election?

It's all about getting Trump out of office because they don't like him and can't accept that he won the election.

It violates American law, such as the Foreign Agents Registration Act for starters.

Sean_F · January 2019

Nigel_Foremain said:

Casino_Royale said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Aye. I fear Trump in the first of many white nationalist Presidents.
I hope you are wrong. I see Trump and Brexit as the last hurrahs in the death throws of the international hatred filled disease called nationalism
There are no last hurrahs.

This is part of the new politics that is going to be with us, now, for some time. As will the ideologically internationalist on the other side.
No, nationalism is fundamentally intellectually bankrupt, and when people begin to feel its effects in the aftermath of Trump and his trade wars and the damage caused by Brexit, it will be consigned back to the basket case that it belongs in, for at least another 50 years when it will remerge again when people have forgotten the hatred and damage it causes. We will have to live with its stupidity for another 10 years. Hopefully it does not allow its equally damaging cousin socialism to creep in as a phony antidote.

People want to believe in something other than making money.

So, socialism, religious fundamentalism, and nationalism are very much with us for the foreseeable future.

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

NickPalmer said:

Quincel said:
Journalists being embedded with arresting police officers is really weird. It's not just an American thing, we do it too. It's just really weird.
It's not just weird, it's wrong - it imperils fair trial. The media should have as little as possible to do with cases before they come to trial, not blazoning their names and faces across our consciousness as they are dragged off.

+1

kinabalu · January 2019

Xenon said:
This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

WITCH HUNT!

Philip_Thompson · January 2019

DavidL said:
So if I sent a "well done" text to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer for his revival of United's disastrous season I would be "looped in" to Man U?

Colour me unconvinced. Of course this does not mean that he has not done things for or on behalf of the Donald that Mueller would find of interest. Trump is getting to be quite a dangerous man to know.

No it's the recipient we are talking about. It would imply that you believe Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is "looped in" to Man U. Which I think it's safe to say he is!

gypsumfantastic · January 2019

The dawn perp walk is a good look for doomed Trump associates.

Casino_Royale · January 2019

Nigel_Foremain said:

Casino_Royale said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Aye. I fear Trump in the first of many white nationalist Presidents.
I hope you are wrong. I see Trump and Brexit as the last hurrahs in the death throws of the international hatred filled disease called nationalism
There are no last hurrahs.

This is part of the new politics that is going to be with us, now, for some time. As will the ideologically internationalist on the other side.
No, nationalism is fundamentally intellectually bankrupt, and when people begin to feel its effects in the aftermath of Trump and his trade wars and the damage caused by Brexit, it will be consigned back to the basket case that it belongs in, for at least another 50 years when it will remerge again when people have forgotten the hatred and damage it causes. We will have to live with its stupidity for another 10 years. Hopefully it does not allow its equally damaging cousin socialism to creep in as a phony antidote.

You might want it to be so, but it won’t happen. Things like nations and religions are a fundamental part of people’s identities - giving them belonging, structure and meaning to their lives - and abolishing it is as about as feasible as abolishing human nature itself.

DavidL · January 2019

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:

kinabalu said:

DavidL said:
So if I sent a "well done" text to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer for his revival of United's disastrous season I would be "looped in" to Man U?

Colour me unconvinced.
No. The analogy would be that you are a 'consultant' for Man Utd and you receive a text message from a close associate of the Glazers saying "well done" immediately after wikileaks has released a bunch of dirt on Chelsea.

Is this persuasive evidence that Man Utd were looped in to an attempt to discredit Chelsea?

On the face of it, yes.
Not sure it is. Welcoming something is not the same as causing it. But there may be more to it.
If the Glazers had spent the previous couple of weeks publicly calling for Wikileaks to release the dirt...

Nope, still not a causal connection (and what could people possibly say about Chelsea that could possibly make people think worse of them anyway?)

Casino_Royale · January 2019

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Casino_Royale said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Aye. I fear Trump in the first of many white nationalist Presidents.
I hope you are wrong. I see Trump and Brexit as the last hurrahs in the death throws of the international hatred filled disease called nationalism
There are no last hurrahs.

This is part of the new politics that is going to be with us, now, for some time. As will the ideologically internationalist on the other side.
No, nationalism is fundamentally intellectually bankrupt, and when people begin to feel its effects in the aftermath of Trump and his trade wars and the damage caused by Brexit, it will be consigned back to the basket case that it belongs in, for at least another 50 years when it will remerge again when people have forgotten the hatred and damage it causes. We will have to live with its stupidity for another 10 years. Hopefully it does not allow its equally damaging cousin socialism to creep in as a phony antidote.
People want to believe in something other than making money.

So, socialism, religious fundamentalism, and nationalism are very much with us for the foreseeable future.

I think David Goodhart hit the nail on the head when we described internationalist centrist Anywheres also as a tribe: they are the anti-tribe tribe.

Pulpstar · January 2019

Tissue_Price said:
A chart-and-a-half, this - at PPP exchange rates Venezuelans were apparently richer than Americans in the late 1950s:
https://humanprogress.org/dwline?p=201&c0=107&c1=2&yf=1950&yl=2017&high=1&reg=3&reg1=0

And richer than us till 1971
Check out the UAE in 1974 !

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

Xenon said:

DavidL said:

Xenon said:
This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

The Russians favoured Trump and Sanders over Hilary and had a small social media presence pushing their preferred candidates. So what exactly?
I think that that is quite a difficult line to maintain when Mueller continues to get indictments, pleas and some fairly hefty sentences.
Just a load of trumped up charges, mostly about lying during the investigation or completely unrelated matters. Which is what you expect if you look at any election spending too closely (I can't imagine what you would find if you investigated say the Clintons this thoroughly).

Someone please explain what is wrong with working with the Russians during the election?

It's all about getting Trump out of office because they don't like him and can't accept that he won the election.

What is wrong with working with the Russians? Are you serious? Well I suppose it is a refreshing view. Thinking it is OK for a rogue state to support the election of POTUS, is indeed a novel one to hear expressed. I wish Leave supporters and Trump sympathisers would be as candid I suppose. They are, after all, Putin's useful idiots

Nigelb · January 2019

Xenon said:

DavidL said:

Xenon said:
This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

The Russians favoured Trump and Sanders over Hilary and had a small social media presence pushing their preferred candidates. So what exactly?
I think that that is quite a difficult line to maintain when Mueller continues to get indictments, pleas and some fairly hefty sentences.
Just a load of trumped up charges, mostly about lying during the investigation or completely unrelated matters. Which is what you expect if you look at any election spending too closely (I can't imagine what you would find if you investigated say the Clintons this thoroughly).

Someone please explain what is wrong with working with the Russians during the election?

It's illegal to accept foreign finance contributions, for a start.

There's then the allegation that foreign policy favours were on offer in exchange (cf Flynn, for example).

The fact that Trump, and numerous administration and campaign officials have lied about his contacts with the Russians does not inspire confidence in their often contradictory defences.

Witness tampering carries some pretty stiff penalties.

And Manafort is going down for a very long time for tax evasion.

Trump is (more than likely) not going to be impeached. He could quite conceivably face the music after 2020, though.

Anorak · January 2019

DavidL said:
So if I sent a "well done" text to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer for his revival of United's disastrous season I would be "looped in" to Man U?

Colour me unconvinced. Of course this does not mean that he has not done things for or on behalf of the Donald that Mueller would find of interest. Trump is getting to be quite a dangerous man to know.

If he has sufficient evidence for the witness-tampering to be a slam-dunk, Stone is going to roll quicker than a, well, rolling stone.

MarqueeMark · January 2019

TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyone keeping a track of how many witches have pleaded guilty to witchcraft in this witch hunt?

"Trump turned me into a newt...."

DavidL · January 2019

kinabalu said:

DavidL said:
Not sure it is. Welcoming something is not the same as causing it. But there may be more to it.
Saying "well done" to somebody (about something) implies that that somebody played a part in that something.

Stone received the text message remember.

Yeah, so that implies that Stone did things which Trump appreciated and which may well have been helpful to him. It doesn't imply that Trump either did or authorised those things.

kinabalu · January 2019

Nigelb said:
If the Glazers had spent the previous couple of weeks publicly calling for Wikileaks to release the dirt...

I forget to mention that bit.

MarqueeMark · January 2019

williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1088764676266172416

Illegal substances? I thought that was the main man at the Co-op Bank?

Xenon · January 2019

TheScreamingEagles said:

Xenon said:

DavidL said:

Xenon said:
This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

The Russians favoured Trump and Sanders over Hilary and had a small social media presence pushing their preferred candidates. So what exactly?
I think that that is quite a difficult line to maintain when Mueller continues to get indictments, pleas and some fairly hefty sentences.
Just a load of trumped up charges, mostly about lying during the investigation or completely unrelated matters. Which is what you expect if you look at any election spending too closely (I can't imagine what you would find if you investigated say the Clintons this thoroughly).

Someone please explain what is wrong with working with the Russians during the election?

It's all about getting Trump out of office because they don't like him and can't accept that he won the election.
It violates American law, such as the Foreign Agents Registration Act for starters.

But no one has been charged with anything regarding the Russian involvement. It's all things that have come to light during the investigation.

The Russian angle was just the excuse to investigate until they found something.

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1088797271179886592

gypsumfantastic · January 2019

Why hasn't Mueller indicted Julian Assange yet?

I guess we're saving him for one of the last delicious treats before Mueller comes for Individual-1 personally.

Nigel_Foremain · January 2019

Casino_Royale said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Casino_Royale said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

OblitusSumMe said:
Much as I'd like to see Trump in court and then doing prison time it isn't going to undo what has happened over the last couple of years.
Aye. I fear Trump in the first of many white nationalist Presidents.
I hope you are wrong. I see Trump and Brexit as the last hurrahs in the death throws of the international hatred filled disease called nationalism
There are no last hurrahs.

This is part of the new politics that is going to be with us, now, for some time. As will the ideologically internationalist on the other side.
No, nationalism is fundamentally intellectually bankrupt, and when people begin to feel its effects in the aftermath of Trump and his trade wars and the damage caused by Brexit, it will be consigned back to the basket case that it belongs in, for at least another 50 years when it will remerge again when people have forgotten the hatred and damage it causes. We will have to live with its stupidity for another 10 years. Hopefully it does not allow its equally damaging cousin socialism to creep in as a phony antidote.
You might want it to be so, but it won’t happen. Things like nations and religions are a fundamental part of people’s identities - giving them belonging, structure and meaning to their lives - and abolishing it is as about as feasible as abolishing human nature itself.

You confuse, or deliberately conflate, nationalism with patriotism. Nationalism is patriotism's thicko brother.

gypsumfantastic · January 2019

Double, double
Trump and trouble
WikiLeaks churn
And Mueller bubble

MarqueeMark · January 2019

Anorak said:

DavidL said:
So if I sent a "well done" text to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer for his revival of United's disastrous season I would be "looped in" to Man U?

Colour me unconvinced. Of course this does not mean that he has not done things for or on behalf of the Donald that Mueller would find of interest. Trump is getting to be quite a dangerous man to know.
If he has sufficient evidence for the witness-tampering to be a slam-dunk, Stone is going to roll quicker than a, well, rolling stone.

I have no sympathy for the devil.

Richard_Nabavi · January 2019

TheScreamingEagles said:
https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1088797271179886592

My, even David has run out of patience...

TheScreamingEagles · January 2019

Xenon said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Xenon said:

DavidL said:

Xenon said:
This whole Mueller investigation seems to just be a politically motivated way of getting rid of Trump.

The Russians favoured Trump and Sanders over Hilary and had a small social media presence pushing their preferred candidates. So what exactly?
I think that that is quite a difficult line to maintain when Mueller continues to get indictments, pleas and some fairly hefty sentences.
Just a load of trumped up charges, mostly about lying during the investigation or completely unrelated matters. Which is what you expect if you look at any election spending too closely (I can't imagine what you would find if you investigated say the Clintons this thoroughly).

Someone please explain what is wrong with working with the Russians during the election?

It's all about getting Trump out of office because they don't like him and can't accept that he won the election.
It violates American law, such as the Foreign Agents Registration Act for starters.
But no one has been charged with anything regarding the Russian involvement. It's all things that have come to light during the investigation.

The Russian angle was just the excuse to investigate until they found something.

You need to stop embarrassing yourself.

13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies were indicted on conspiracy charges, with some also being accused of identity theft. The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign. The companies involved are the Internet Research Agency, often described as a “Russian troll farm,” and two other companies that helped finance it. The Russian nationals indicted include 12 of the agency’s employees and its alleged financier, Yevgeny Prigozhin

12 Russian GRU officers: These officers of Russia’s military intelligence service were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016

AndyJS · January 2019

"The foreign secretary has followed the US in declaring Venezuela’s opposition leader the country’s legitimate ruler and condemned Jeremy Corbyn for his support of the socialist government.

Jeremy Hunt said that Juan Guaidó, who is leading protests against President Maduro, was “the right person to take Venezuela forward”. It followed a similar move by the US on Wednesday."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/hunt-takes-swipe-at-corbyn-for-backing-maduro-as-president-of-venezuela-p3lj56dsz

gypsumfantastic · January 2019

MarqueeMark said:

Anorak said:

DavidL said:
So if I sent a "well done" text to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer for his revival of United's disastrous season I would be "looped in" to Man U?

Colour me unconvinced. Of course this does not mean that he has not done things for or on behalf of the Donald that Mueller would find of interest. Trump is getting to be quite a dangerous man to know.
If he has sufficient evidence for the witness-tampering to be a slam-dunk, Stone is going to roll quicker than a, well, rolling stone.
I have no sympathy for the devil.

Carries a penalty of up to 20 years in the US. And y'all thought Manafort was in some deep shit.

Casino_Royale · January 2019

MarqueeMark said:

williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1088764676266172416
Illegal substances? I thought that was the main man at the Co-op Bank?

I might respectfully put it to the gentleman concerned that Centrica are probably more unpopular than the EU, amongst both Leavers and Remainers.

Where do they find these people? And why haven’t they learnt that getting the most Anywhere of Anywhere big businesses - with very poor public reputations - to do this is a bad idea?

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