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SystemSystem Posts: 12,651
edited January 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May – the wrong woman for her time?

So this is how constitutional settlements are brokered: not at a measured pace with Olympian detachment and the wisdom of Solomon but at high speed in a blind funk with a deal cobbled together in shadowy alcoves. It’s not pretty.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 31,053
    First again and I can't argue with any of the above - indecision isn't needed now
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Hello - I must be going ;)

    (I am not in the mood for more Brexit spats - just keeping you company until someone else turns up)
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,299
    eek said:

    First again and I can't argue with any of the above - indecision isn't needed now

    Reading the header and still getting the 'First' - kudos!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    May be not.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,739
    FPT: "As David Davis so eloquently said sometime before the referendum: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.”

    EU's buggered then, as it seems to find it impossible to change its mind on the backstop.

    But then, is the EU a democracy?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    MarqueeMark said:

    FPT: "As David Davis so eloquently said sometime before the referendum: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.”

    EU's buggered then, as it seems to find it impossible to change its mind on the backstop.

    But then, is the EU a democracy?

    The ability to change your mind is not the same as an obligation to change your mind. Leave voters are allowed to vote Leave again.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Well - that is my job done. Goodnight everyone.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,299
    "like pearls from a broken necklace"

    More like bowling balls if it was one of May's necklaces.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Great header - worth it just for 'evitable'!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,587
    FPT

    I am with BT and have just renegotiated my package as follows

    Superfast Fibre Plus BT whole home with 67 mb average download including complete wi fi guarantee including router and separate disc giving whole home cover at £35.99 per month including line rental

    I pay an additional £12 per month for free weekend landline calls and BT sports on two tvs

    Also I use their on line 'chat' line for support if it is necessary and it is excellent

    Also I did not take no deal off the table until I did the deal !!!!!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Couldn't agree more. May has provided a complete vacuum where leadership was required. Anyone, even Andrea Leadsom, would have been better than this. They could hardly have been worse!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    FPT

    I am with BT and have just renegotiated my package as follows

    Superfast Fibre Plus BT whole home with 67 mb average download including complete wi fi guarantee including router and separate disc giving whole home cover at £35.99 per month including line rental

    I pay an additional £12 per month for free weekend landline calls and BT sports on two tvs

    Also I use their on line 'chat' line for support if it is necessary and it is excellent

    Also I did not take no deal off the table until I did the deal !!!!!

    If only the international diplomacy worked like that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,038
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    FPT

    I am with BT and have just renegotiated my package as follows

    Superfast Fibre Plus BT whole home with 67 mb average download including complete wi fi guarantee including router and separate disc giving whole home cover at £35.99 per month including line rental

    I pay an additional £12 per month for free weekend landline calls and BT sports on two tvs

    Also I use their on line 'chat' line for support if it is necessary and it is excellent

    Also I did not take no deal off the table until I did the deal !!!!!

    You should have asked for unicorn poop and seen what you got then...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    FPT

    I am with BT and have just renegotiated my package as follows

    Superfast Fibre Plus BT whole home with 67 mb average download including complete wi fi guarantee including router and separate disc giving whole home cover at £35.99 per month including line rental

    I pay an additional £12 per month for free weekend landline calls and BT sports on two tvs

    Also I use their on line 'chat' line for support if it is necessary and it is excellent

    Also I did not take no deal off the table until I did the deal !!!!!

    Haha - nice last line, although I feel bound to point out that 'No Deal' in this instance would have meant you moving to another supplier.

    The Brexit No Deal equivalent is: you being ready to have no broadband and revert to modem dial-up.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,251
    Philip_Thompson said:

    Couldn't agree more. May has provided a complete vacuum

    Yup. She sucks.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,038
    edited January 2019
    https://amp.theguardian.com/culture/shortcuts/2019/jan/21/you-can-still-like-gillian-anderson-even-if-she-makes-a-great-thatcher

    Some people don’t seem to get the fact actors act out characters they may or may not like...if playing a character was an endorsement, nobody would be allowed to play a racist, a sexist, let alone a murderer etc.
  • The_WoodpeckerThe_Woodpecker Posts: 508
    El_Capitano said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Couldn't agree more. May has provided a complete vacuum

    Yup. She sucks.
    Arf! 😄
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,587
    Benpointer said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    FPT

    I am with BT and have just renegotiated my package as follows

    Superfast Fibre Plus BT whole home with 67 mb average download including complete wi fi guarantee including router and separate disc giving whole home cover at £35.99 per month including line rental

    I pay an additional £12 per month for free weekend landline calls and BT sports on two tvs

    Also I use their on line 'chat' line for support if it is necessary and it is excellent

    Also I did not take no deal off the table until I did the deal !!!!!

    Haha - nice last line, although I feel bound to point out that 'No Deal' in this instance would have meant you moving to another supplier.

    The Brexit No Deal equivalent is: you being ready to have no broadband and revert to modem dial-up.
    I was being naughty putting in the last line but it was the principle throughout my business career.

    If I did not like the deal I said no deal
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    edited January 2019
    Philip_Thompson said:

    Couldn't agree more. May has provided a complete vacuum where leadership was required. Anyone, even Andrea Leadsom, would have been better than this. They could hardly have been worse!

    That's an interesting one. At the time of the leadership election prominent remainer journalists esp Rachel Sylvester in the Times did a hatchet job on Leadsom. A conspiracy theorist might suggest perhaps they knew May would fuck up Brexit. In fairness Leadsom would still have been a poor choice because her inexperience as much as anything. Bojo blundered and missed his chance by dropping out. Ifs and buts as usual.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,977
    edited January 2019
    Benpointer said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    FPT

    I am with BT and have just renegotiated my package as follows

    Superfast Fibre Plus BT whole home with 67 mb average download including complete wi fi guarantee including router and separate disc giving whole home cover at £35.99 per month including line rental

    I pay an additional £12 per month for free weekend landline calls and BT sports on two tvs

    Also I use their on line 'chat' line for support if it is necessary and it is excellent

    Also I did not take no deal off the table until I did the deal !!!!!

    Haha - nice last line, although I feel bound to point out that 'No Deal' in this instance would have meant you moving to another supplier.

    The Brexit No Deal equivalent is: you being ready to have no broadband and revert to modem dial-up.
    If BT had 28 customers, of whom only 11 actually paid in...
  • eekeek Posts: 31,053
    Beto O'Rourke may (or may) not be running but he's definitely touring America https://medium.com/@BetoORourke/i-had-been-to-ulysses-kansas-once-before-briefly-312e9dac8011
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/culture/shortcuts/2019/jan/21/you-can-still-like-gillian-anderson-even-if-she-makes-a-great-thatcher

    Some people don’t seem to get the fact actors act out characters they may or may not like...if playing a character was an endorsement, nobody would be allowed to play a racist, a sexist, let alone a murderer etc.

    Indeed, it's amazing what little grasp on reality some people have.

    https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2322312/26-of-poll-thinks-no-deal-means-stay-in-the-eu
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Excellent header, couldn't agree more.

    The Tories have not really had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher - none of her successors has tried to take the party out of its comfort zone or challenged the unrealistic preconceptions of its membership. May is the latest in a long line of mediocrities who have placed the prejudices of the ageing, shrinking band of activists ahead of everything else, including those of the country. History will not look kindly on any of them, May least of all.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,492
    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1087464235662221314
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,038
    edited January 2019
    Forget Diane Abbott calling QT racist, apparently saying pogba has pace and power is...

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/21/paul-pogba-pace-power-rethink-bame-coverage

    What an absolutely horseshit article including claims that being 6ft 3” midfielder isnt particularly big. It bloody is. And in Arsenal midfielder of old it wasn’t just viera described as a beast, petit was as well, cos you know they were.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,943
    edited January 2019
    I think Theresa May could have been a reasonable PM but from the moment she lost her majority she's just been on a downward spiral.

    It would have been much better for her and the country if she'd resigned on 8th June 2017. At exactly the moment the country needed strong leadership we found ourselves with a leader that had very badly weakened herself...

    And the rest is history.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1087463495405309952
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,587
    On topic I do think Alastair is largely correct though she was dealt a poisoned chalice that would have overwhelmed most in the attempts at squaring a circle that is virtualy impossible

    After today I do think she has lost most of the control and my instinct indicates the remainers in the HOC are taking control and remain is increasing daily

    The ERG over stretched and look as if they are going to struggle to achieve any Brexit

    I do not like to think how the public will feel if we end up remaining, but we would be mad to move to Norway rather than remaining
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1087465126230405120
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,718
    Norm said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Couldn't agree more. May has provided a complete vacuum where leadership was required. Anyone, even Andrea Leadsom, would have been better than this. They could hardly have been worse!

    That's an interesting one. At the time of the leadership election prominent remainer journalists esp Rachel Sylvester in the Times did a hatchet job on Leadsom. A conspiracy theorist might suggest perhaps they knew May would fuck up Brexit. In fairness Leadsom would still have been a poor choice because her inexperience as much as anything. Bojo blundered and missed his chance by dropping out. Ifs and buts as usual.
    Leadsom was also a proven liar. And thick as mince.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,053
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1087464235662221314

    Who on earth would donate to a campaign where the only thing on the table is a deal most MPs hate...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    Before I read this, it seems like a lot of words to say "Yes".
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,587
    anothernick said:

    Excellent header, couldn't agree more.

    The Tories have not really had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher - none of her successors has tried to take the party out of its comfort zone or challenged the unrealistic preconceptions of its membership. May is the latest in a long line of mediocrities who have placed the prejudices of the ageing, shrinking band of activists ahead of everything else, including those of the country. History will not look kindly on any of them, May least of all.

    Point of order. Not all us are prejeudiced oldies
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    eek said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1087464235662221314

    Who on earth would donate to a campaign where the only thing on the table is a deal most MPs hate...
    It is the height of absurdity that there are people out there who think a GE is a good idea right now.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,943
    The fall out from Diane Abbott's encounter with the riff raff in Derby continues

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/21/fiona-bruce-bullied-intimidated-hard-left-labour-supporters/
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1087466213830209537
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,038
    kle4 said:

    eek said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1087464235662221314

    Who on earth would donate to a campaign where the only thing on the table is a deal most MPs hate...
    It is the height of absurdity that there are people out there who think a GE is a good idea right now.
    I hear there is a lady in Bristol who doesn’t....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    I do appreciate the accurate summary of what happened in the Syria vote situation, rather than the version Ed M has told since.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,053
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1087465126230405120

    That's a problem for all Labour MPs in Leave areas - As shadow Brexit minister Jenny Chapman will have a particular problem squaring the circle as there is little interest in another vote in her constituency...

    https://twitter.com/JennyChapman/status/1085091453053923329
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,943
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1087466213830209537

    Here we go again... :D
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,038
    GIN1138 said:

    The fall out from Diane Abbott's encounter with the riff raff in Derby continues

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/21/fiona-bruce-bullied-intimidated-hard-left-labour-supporters/

    Kinder gentler politics....
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,718
    On topic, great header.

    May is not a leader. At best, a number 2 but more like a good number 3.

    One of her few achievements at the Home Office was getting rid of Abu Qatada. She kept going, knew what she wanted, negotiated successfully, did not have to persuade anyone else and pretty much did it all herself. Other than that she managed to survive without any disasters. We should have been warned that this showed someone who avoided doing stuff.

    She has approached Brexit in the same manner, which is why it has proved disastrous. She promoted herself above her level of competence and, boy, does it show.

    A task - Brexit - which required someone with the wisdom of Solomon - got a middling unimaginative inflexible functionary, trying to manage a party which was determined to play out its nervous breakdown in public and involve everyone else in its psychodrama.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,053
    kle4 said:

    eek said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1087464235662221314

    Who on earth would donate to a campaign where the only thing on the table is a deal most MPs hate...
    It is the height of absurdity that there are people out there who think a GE is a good idea right now.
    If you are in a leave constituency it may be a slightly better than a second referendum...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    Benpointer said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/culture/shortcuts/2019/jan/21/you-can-still-like-gillian-anderson-even-if-she-makes-a-great-thatcher

    Some people don’t seem to get the fact actors act out characters they may or may not like...if playing a character was an endorsement, nobody would be allowed to play a racist, a sexist, let alone a murderer etc.

    Indeed, it's amazing what little grasp on reality some people have.

    https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2322312/26-of-poll-thinks-no-deal-means-stay-in-the-eu
    And parliament thinks we the public will make the right choice when asked again?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    eek said:

    That's a problem for all Labour MPs in Leave areas - As shadow Brexit minister Jenny Chapman will have a particular problem squaring the circle as there is little interest in another vote in her constituency...

    https://twitter.com/JennyChapman/status/1085091453053923329

    If she wanted to Leave she should have voted for the deal
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,038
    edited January 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, great header.

    May is not a leader. At best, a number 2 but more like a good number 3.

    One of her few achievements at the Home Office was getting rid of Abu Qatada. She kept going, knew what she wanted, negotiated successfully, did not have to persuade anyone else and pretty much did it all herself. Other than that she managed to survive without any disasters. We should have been warned that this showed someone who avoided doing stuff.

    She has approached Brexit in the same manner, which is why it has proved disastrous. She promoted herself above her level of competence and, boy, does it show.

    A task - Brexit - which required someone with the wisdom of Solomon - got a middling unimaginative inflexible functionary, trying to manage a party which was determined to play out its nervous breakdown in public and involve everyone else in its psychodrama.

    Not a leader is the key...she is like brown in the respect. Both are technocrats, used and comfortable taking weeks or months to plan making decisions, and then find it nearly impossible to change course if it doesn’t go to plan.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,587
    edited January 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, great header.

    May is not a leader. At best, a number 2 but more like a good number 3.

    One of her few achievements at the Home Office was getting rid of Abu Qatada. She kept going, knew what she wanted, negotiated successfully, did not have to persuade anyone else and pretty much did it all herself. Other than that she managed to survive without any disasters. We should have been warned that this showed someone who avoided doing stuff.

    She has approached Brexit in the same manner, which is why it has proved disastrous. She promoted herself above her level of competence and, boy, does it show.

    A task - Brexit - which required someone with the wisdom of Solomon - got a middling unimaginative inflexible functionary, trying to manage a party which was determined to play out its nervous breakdown in public and involve everyone else in its psychodrama.

    I agree with you and your last paragraph is not unreasonable but where was there ever a Solomon for this chaos
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    Philip_Thompson said:

    Couldn't agree more. May has provided a complete vacuum where leadership was required. Anyone, even Andrea Leadsom, would have been better than this. They could hardly have been worse!

    I tried speculating last night if there are any MPs who would be worse in this particular situation. Not that she does not have some qualities better than many, but thinking about how she is so clearly wrong for this situation as she is unwilling to act and is just pursuing options she knows will not work just to delay.

    All I came up with were Chris Williamson and Chris Chope as being worse, but there have to be a full handful at least. Suggestions?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, great header.

    May is not a leader. At best, a number 2 but more like a good number 3.

    One of her few achievements at the Home Office was getting rid of Abu Qatada. She kept going, knew what she wanted, negotiated successfully, did not have to persuade anyone else and pretty much did it all herself. Other than that she managed to survive without any disasters. We should have been warned that this showed someone who avoided doing stuff.

    She has approached Brexit in the same manner, which is why it has proved disastrous. She promoted herself above her level of competence and, boy, does it show.

    A task - Brexit - which required someone with the wisdom of Solomon - got a middling unimaginative inflexible functionary, trying to manage a party which was determined to play out its nervous breakdown in public and involve everyone else in its psychodrama.

    I agree with you and your last paragraph is not unreasonable but where was there ever a Solomon for this chaos
    No. And May, although having made mistakes along the way (refusing to have the Cabinet make a decision until the middle of last year for a start) was still not doing more harm than potential good. She is now, by refusing to move because she is terrified of party divisions.,

    Corbyn would make a better Prime Minister than May right now. No question in my mind whatsoever.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Cyclefree said:

    Norm said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Couldn't agree more. May has provided a complete vacuum where leadership was required. Anyone, even Andrea Leadsom, would have been better than this. They could hardly have been worse!

    That's an interesting one. At the time of the leadership election prominent remainer journalists esp Rachel Sylvester in the Times did a hatchet job on Leadsom. A conspiracy theorist might suggest perhaps they knew May would fuck up Brexit. In fairness Leadsom would still have been a poor choice because her inexperience as much as anything. Bojo blundered and missed his chance by dropping out. Ifs and buts as usual.
    Leadsom was also a proven liar. And thick as mince.
    I concur to an extent with the first but not the second.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    FPT

    I am with BT and have just renegotiated my package as follows

    Superfast Fibre Plus BT whole home with 67 mb average download including complete wi fi guarantee including router and separate disc giving whole home cover at £35.99 per month including line rental

    I pay an additional £12 per month for free weekend landline calls and BT sports on two tvs

    Also I use their on line 'chat' line for support if it is necessary and it is excellent

    Also I did not take no deal off the table until I did the deal !!!!!

    You should have asked for unicorn poop and seen what you got then...
    Unicorn poop comes in many colours

    https://www.smythstoys.com/uk/en-gb/toys/fashion-and-dolls/poopsie-surprise/poopsie-unicorn-slime-surprise-pink-rainbow-assortment/p/165627?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2K_Kr-7_3wIVAUPTCh1fvQknEAQYASABEgLAEvD_BwE
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,492
    kle4 said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Couldn't agree more. May has provided a complete vacuum where leadership was required. Anyone, even Andrea Leadsom, would have been better than this. They could hardly have been worse!

    I tried speculating last night if there are any MPs who would be worse in this particular situation. Not that she does not have some qualities better than many, but thinking about how she is so clearly wrong for this situation as she is unwilling to act and is just pursuing options she knows will not work just to delay.

    All I came up with were Chris Williamson and Chris Chope as being worse, but there have to be a full handful at least. Suggestions?
    Andrew Bridgen, Iain Duncan Smith, Peter Bone, Mark Francois, Steve Baker, and the woman who I helped to elect, Andrea Jenkyns, though I think David Herdson deserves the lion's share of the credit for that.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2019
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    GIN1138 said:

    The fall out from Diane Abbott's encounter with the riff raff in Derby continues

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/21/fiona-bruce-bullied-intimidated-hard-left-labour-supporters/

    Kinder gentler politics....
    When Fiona Bruce was appointed as Question Time host, a lot of people seemed to think she was going to get a lot of criticism from alt-right types for being a typical BBC left-wing metropolitan liberal.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1087468874054991872
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    kle4 said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Couldn't agree more. May has provided a complete vacuum where leadership was required. Anyone, even Andrea Leadsom, would have been better than this. They could hardly have been worse!

    I tried speculating last night if there are any MPs who would be worse in this particular situation. Not that she does not have some qualities better than many, but thinking about how she is so clearly wrong for this situation as she is unwilling to act and is just pursuing options she knows will not work just to delay.

    All I came up with were Chris Williamson and Chris Chope as being worse, but there have to be a full handful at least. Suggestions?
    Andrew Bridgen, Iain Duncan Smith, Peter Bone, Mark Francois, Steve Baker, and the woman who I helped to elect, Andrea Jenkyns, though I think David Herdson deserves the lion's share of the credit for that.
    They at least know what they want, so forward motion could occur from time to time.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,718
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, great header.

    May is not a leader. At best, a number 2 but more like a good number 3.

    One of her few achievements at the Home Office was getting rid of Abu Qatada. She kept going, knew what she wanted, negotiated successfully, did not have to persuade anyone else and pretty much did it all herself. Other than that she managed to survive without any disasters. We should have been warned that this showed someone who avoided doing stuff.

    She has approached Brexit in the same manner, which is why it has proved disastrous. She promoted herself above her level of competence and, boy, does it show.

    A task - Brexit - which required someone with the wisdom of Solomon - got a middling unimaginative inflexible functionary, trying to manage a party which was determined to play out its nervous breakdown in public and involve everyone else in its psychodrama.

    I agree with you and your last paragraph is not unreasonable but where was there ever a Solomon for this chaos
    Probably not in one man or woman. But someone with a bit more imagination, empathy and self-awareness might have realised that he/she needed really good people around them to make a, hopefully, better collective decision. She has made appalling appointments, has chosen poor advisers and got rid of good ones and has had no team around her to help. A really good strong Cabinet was needed. What did we get? Davis, Fox and Johnson.

    A good leader is not someone who has all the strengths needed. That is rare indeed. A good leader is someone who has some of the qualities needed, recognises their own weaknesses and appoints people around them to provide what the leader cannot.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,775
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1087466213830209537

    Those plotting to resign backed her in the confidence vote (presumably). Why did they do so if hey were so unhappy with her leadership!? She's never given any indication she would compromise with Remainers despite obvious parliamentary arithmetic, so what did these ministers expect!?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    May has to go.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,943
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1087468874054991872

    For those of us not following every twist and turn of this soap opera can anyone explain the significance?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,809
    Does anyone have the wording of the Cooper amendment?

    And how would it have legal force?

    ie Would it compel May to revoke Article 50 if no deal approved by Commons? If not, how would it work?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,654
    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1087463495405309952

    Excuse the segue, but this illuminates something I find incredibly annoying: namely, are we getting Cabinet leaks in real-time now? It's gotten so bad you could go thru the leaks and construct the meetings minute-by-minute. It's really annoying
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Jonathan said:

    May has to go.

    Who do you think should replace her?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    Jonathan said:

    May has to go.

    She should have gone awhile ago. She's pushed doing nothing too far. If she won't lead, she should let someone else lead.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,943
    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1087466213830209537

    Those plotting to resign backed her in the confidence vote (presumably). Why did they do so if hey were so unhappy with her leadership!? She's never given any indication she would compromise with Remainers despite obvious parliamentary arithmetic, so what did these ministers expect!?
    Indeed.

    Remain or leave one thing is for sure the Tory Party is not covering itself in glory at the moment...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,762
    MikeL said:

    Does anyone have the wording of the Cooper amendment?

    And how would it have legal force?

    ie Would it compel May to revoke Article 50 if no deal approved by Commons? If not, how would it work?

    https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1087435251486519300
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    AndyJS said:

    Jonathan said:

    May has to go.

    Who do you think should replace her?
    A coin tossing machine. It'd be more decisive.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,587
    kle4 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, great header.

    May is not a leader. At best, a number 2 but more like a good number 3.

    One of her few achievements at the Home Office was getting rid of Abu Qatada. She kept going, knew what she wanted, negotiated successfully, did not have to persuade anyone else and pretty much did it all herself. Other than that she managed to survive without any disasters. We should have been warned that this showed someone who avoided doing stuff.

    She has approached Brexit in the same manner, which is why it has proved disastrous. She promoted herself above her level of competence and, boy, does it show.

    A task - Brexit - which required someone with the wisdom of Solomon - got a middling unimaginative inflexible functionary, trying to manage a party which was determined to play out its nervous breakdown in public and involve everyone else in its psychodrama.

    I agree with you and your last paragraph is not unreasonable but where was there ever a Solomon for this chaos
    No. And May, although having made mistakes along the way (refusing to have the Cabinet make a decision until the middle of last year for a start) was still not doing more harm than potential good. She is now, by refusing to move because she is terrified of party divisions.,

    Corbyn would make a better Prime Minister than May right now. No question in my mind whatsoever.
    I am so sorry, but on this no way would he be remotely competent.

    Cooper, Benn, Starmer maybe but Corbyn is off the scale of suitability
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,654
    edited January 2019
    kle4 said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Couldn't agree more. May has provided a complete vacuum where leadership was required. Anyone, even Andrea Leadsom, would have been better than this. They could hardly have been worse!

    I tried speculating last night if there are any MPs who would be worse in this particular situation. Not that she does not have some qualities better than many, but thinking about how she is so clearly wrong for this situation as she is unwilling to act and is just pursuing options she knows will not work just to delay.

    All I came up with were Chris Williamson and Chris Chope as being worse, but there have to be a full handful at least. Suggestions?
    ... the Honorable Member for Christchurch and Upskirting throughly deserves it.

    [edit: shit, I ment Gavin Williamson! Sorry, wrong Williamson! Stupid Viewcode!]
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,759
    I dunno, TMay looks hopelessly incompetent right now but you have to wait to see the outcome.

    Imagine parliament "forces" a Remain vs Deal referendum on her. A few months from now we could easily have:
    * Brexit cancelled
    * Con leading in polls
    * TMay still PM
    * Her enemies marginalized, feuding and discredited

    ...and people will be asking if she planned the whole thing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    kle4 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, great header.

    May is not a leader. At best, a number 2 but more like a good number 3.

    One of her few achievements at the Home Office was getting rid of Abu Qatada. She kept going, knew what she wanted, negotiated successfully, did not have to persuade anyone else and pretty much did it all herself. Other than that she managed to survive without any disasters. We should have been warned that this showed someone who avoided doing stuff.

    She has approached Brexit in the same manner, which is why it has proved disastrous. She promoted herself above her level of competence and, boy, does it show.

    A task - Brexit - which required someone with the wisdom of Solomon - got a middling unimaginative inflexible functionary, trying to manage a party which was determined to play out its nervous breakdown in public and involve everyone else in its psychodrama.

    I agree with you and your last paragraph is not unreasonable but where was there ever a Solomon for this chaos
    No. And May, although having made mistakes along the way (refusing to have the Cabinet make a decision until the middle of last year for a start) was still not doing more harm than potential good. She is now, by refusing to move because she is terrified of party divisions.,

    Corbyn would make a better Prime Minister than May right now. No question in my mind whatsoever.
    I am so sorry, but on this no way would he be remotely competent.

    Cooper, Benn, Starmer maybe but Corbyn is off the scale of suitability
    I never said I thought he would be competent. I very much don't. May would have been better than him in almost every situation, but she has proven that for this one she is not.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    MikeL said:

    Does anyone have the wording of the Cooper amendment?

    And how would it have legal force?

    ie Would it compel May to revoke Article 50 if no deal approved by Commons? If not, how would it work?

    This is the bill she has tabled, I don't know how it relates to the amendment.

    https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno3.html
    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2017-2019/0321/19321.pdf
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,451
    kle4 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, great header.

    May is not a leader. At best, a number 2 but more like a good number 3.

    One of her few achievements at the Home Office was getting rid of Abu Qatada. She kept going, knew what she wanted, negotiated successfully, did not have to persuade anyone else and pretty much did it all herself. Other than that she managed to survive without any disasters. We should have been warned that this showed someone who avoided doing stuff.

    She has approached Brexit in the same manner, which is why it has proved disastrous. She promoted herself above her level of competence and, boy, does it show.

    A task - Brexit - s psychodrama.

    I agree with you and your last paragraph is not unreasonable but where was there ever a Solomon for this chaos
    No. And May, although having made mistakes along the way (refusing to have the Cabinet make a decision until the middle of last year for a start) was still not doing more harm than potential good. She is now, by refusing to move because she is terrified of party divisions.,

    Corbyn would make a better Prime Minister than May right now. No question in my mind whatsoever.
    kle4 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, great header.

    May is not a leader. At best, a number 2 but more like a good number 3.

    One of her few achievements at the Home Office was getting rid of Abu Qatada. She kept going, knew what she wanted, negotiated successfully, did not have to persuade anyone else and pretty much did it all herself. Other than that she managed to survive without any disasters. We should have been warned that this showed someone who avoided doing stuff.

    She has approached Brexit in the same manner, which is why it has proved disastrous. She promoted herself above her level of competence and, boy, does it show.

    A task - Brexit - which required someone with the wisdom of Solomon - got a middling unimaginative inflexible functionary, trying to manage a party which was determined to play out its nervous breakdown in public and involve everyone else in its psychodrama.

    I agree with you and your last paragraph is not unreasonable but where was there ever a Solomon for this chaos
    No. And May, although having made mistakes along the way (refusing to have the Cabinet make a decision until the middle of last year for a start) was still not doing more harm than potential good. She is now, by refusing to move because she is terrified of party divisions.,

    Corbyn would make a better Prime Minister than May right now. No question in my mind whatsoever.
    I would not go that far.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    anothernick said:

    Excellent header, couldn't agree more.

    The Tories have not really had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher - none of her successors has tried to take the party out of its comfort zone or challenged the unrealistic preconceptions of its membership. May is the latest in a long line of mediocrities who have placed the prejudices of the ageing, shrinking band of activists ahead of everything else, including those of the country. History will not look kindly on any of them, May least of all.

    Cameron tried to take the party out of its comfort zone by tuning it into an orange booker lib dem tribute act. He did not complete the process which is one of the reasons there is such division today.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    edmundintokyo said:

    I dunno, TMay looks hopelessly incompetent right now but you have to wait to see the outcome.

    Imagine parliament "forces" a Remain vs Deal referendum on her. A few months from now we could easily have:
    * Brexit cancelled
    * Con leading in polls
    * TMay still PM
    * Her enemies marginalized, feuding and discredited

    ...and people will be asking if she planned the whole thing.

    A remainer drug ridden fantasy I'd suggest
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,451
    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1087466213830209537

    Those plotting to resign backed her in the confidence vote (presumably). Why did they do so if hey were so unhappy with her leadership!? She's never given any indication she would compromise with Remainers despite obvious parliamentary arithmetic, so what did these ministers expect!?
    That 's been the odd thing. Why the hell did people who loathe Thersa May keep her in office?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,718
    viewcode said:

    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1087463495405309952

    Excuse the segue, but this illuminates something I find incredibly annoying: namely, are we getting Cabinet leaks in real-time now? It's gotten so bad you could go thru the leaks and construct the meetings minute-by-minute. It's really annoying
    We may as well have the meetings streamed to us live.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,759
    Norm said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    I dunno, TMay looks hopelessly incompetent right now but you have to wait to see the outcome.

    Imagine parliament "forces" a Remain vs Deal referendum on her. A few months from now we could easily have:
    * Brexit cancelled
    * Con leading in polls
    * TMay still PM
    * Her enemies marginalized, feuding and discredited

    ...and people will be asking if she planned the whole thing.

    A remainer drug ridden fantasy I'd suggest
    Which part don't you buy?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    Does anyone have the wording of the Cooper amendment?

    And how would it have legal force?

    ie Would it compel May to revoke Article 50 if no deal approved by Commons? If not, how would it work?

    https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1087435251486519300
    And here's the amendment to give that Bill air time:

    https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1087468063644102659
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,718
    Anyway, if you're bored of Brexit or fed up with it, some non-Brexit related reading.

    https://barry-walsh.co.uk/news/

    The essay I refer to is very well worth your time.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,587
    I hope somene with better knowledge than me could set out the amendments, the effect, their support, and the overall trajectory for next week and beyond

    To be honest I do not have a clue
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,759
    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1087466213830209537

    Those plotting to resign backed her in the confidence vote (presumably). Why did they do so if hey were so unhappy with her leadership!? She's never given any indication she would compromise with Remainers despite obvious parliamentary arithmetic, so what did these ministers expect!?
    That 's been the odd thing. Why the hell did people who loathe Thersa May keep her in office?
    Because there are worse alternatives, and the membership would probably choose them.

    PS This will contine to be true for years to come.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,654
    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1087466213830209537

    Those plotting to resign backed her in the confidence vote (presumably). Why did they do so if hey were so unhappy with her leadership!? She's never given any indication she would compromise with Remainers despite obvious parliamentary arithmetic, so what did these ministers expect!?
    That 's been the odd thing. Why the hell did people who loathe Thersa May keep her in office?
    Because they want to advance their careers and she's the blame sponge. They keep their heads down, she messes up, they come out of der bunker and rule the rubble.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    viewcode said:

    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1087463495405309952

    Excuse the segue, but this illuminates something I find incredibly annoying: namely, are we getting Cabinet leaks in real-time now? It's gotten so bad you could go thru the leaks and construct the meetings minute-by-minute. It's really annoying
    Absolutely. The level of detail and swiftness of it suggests to me that since they cannot possibly be whipping out their phones and texting it right there during the meeting, they must be writing up what they intend to say (or what they intend to say they said) beforehand. It's incredibly irritating and another example of how the Tories are essentially not even in government anymore, they are operating entirely independently in Cabinet only caring that we get to know who among them is saying what to position for the leadership contest.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    edmundintokyo said:

    Norm said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    I dunno, TMay looks hopelessly incompetent right now but you have to wait to see the outcome.

    Imagine parliament "forces" a Remain vs Deal referendum on her. A few months from now we could easily have:
    * Brexit cancelled
    * Con leading in polls
    * TMay still PM
    * Her enemies marginalized, feuding and discredited

    ...and people will be asking if she planned the whole thing.

    A remainer drug ridden fantasy I'd suggest
    Which part don't you buy?
    I can imagine Brexit cancelled but the idea there'd still be a functioning Tory party afterwards is shall we say politely a tad unlikely.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,762
    anothernick said:

    Excellent header, couldn't agree more.

    The Tories have not really had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher - none of her successors has tried to take the party out of its comfort zone or challenged the unrealistic preconceptions of its membership. May is the latest in a long line of mediocrities who have placed the prejudices of the ageing, shrinking band of activists ahead of everything else, including those of the country. History will not look kindly on any of them, May least of all.

    How does Cameron fit in that? For all his many faults, he did modernise the party, before the reactionaries took it back.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,654
    Apropos of nothing, today I found out that Eric Idle and John Major were born on the same day.

    http://www.lettersofnote.com/2016/03/i-hope-you-dont-feel-too-disappointed.html
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,654
    Cyclefree said:

    viewcode said:

    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1087463495405309952

    Excuse the segue, but this illuminates something I find incredibly annoying: namely, are we getting Cabinet leaks in real-time now? It's gotten so bad you could go thru the leaks and construct the meetings minute-by-minute. It's really annoying
    We may as well have the meetings streamed to us live.
    Indeed
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1087466213830209537

    Those plotting to resign backed her in the confidence vote (presumably). Why did they do so if hey were so unhappy with her leadership!? She's never given any indication she would compromise with Remainers despite obvious parliamentary arithmetic, so what did these ministers expect!?
    That 's been the odd thing. Why the hell did people who loathe Thersa May keep her in office?
    Because they want to advance their careers and she's the blame sponge. They keep their heads down, she messes up, they come out of der bunker and rule the rubble.
    I thought that was the strategy years ago, since dealing with Brexit was likely to destroy whoever was at the helm. But it's been so incompetent there may not be survivors from out of the bunker, and they should have taken their chances and fled.

    As they will, I am sure, claim later they opposed what May was doing, they intend to treat us all like absolute cretins, by pretending they had no choice.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,524
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    I hope somene with better knowledge than me could set out the amendments, the effect, their support, and the overall trajectory for next week and beyond

    To be honest I do not have a clue

    Be careful. You could be in line for a Cabinet role if you keep on like that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,762
    Foxy said:

    anothernick said:

    Excellent header, couldn't agree more.

    The Tories have not really had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher - none of her successors has tried to take the party out of its comfort zone or challenged the unrealistic preconceptions of its membership. May is the latest in a long line of mediocrities who have placed the prejudices of the ageing, shrinking band of activists ahead of everything else, including those of the country. History will not look kindly on any of them, May least of all.

    How does Cameron fit in that? For all his many faults, he did modernise the party, before the reactionaries took it back.
    For that matter, so did John Major.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    Foxy said:

    anothernick said:

    Excellent header, couldn't agree more.

    The Tories have not really had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher - none of her successors has tried to take the party out of its comfort zone or challenged the unrealistic preconceptions of its membership. May is the latest in a long line of mediocrities who have placed the prejudices of the ageing, shrinking band of activists ahead of everything else, including those of the country. History will not look kindly on any of them, May least of all.

    How does Cameron fit in that? For all his many faults, he did modernise the party, before the reactionaries took it back.
    He was riding on the shoulders of a brave party chairman who said they looked to people like the nasty party.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2002/oct/08/uk.conservatives2002
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,315
    edmundintokyo said:

    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1087466213830209537

    Those plotting to resign backed her in the confidence vote (presumably). Why did they do so if hey were so unhappy with her leadership!? She's never given any indication she would compromise with Remainers despite obvious parliamentary arithmetic, so what did these ministers expect!?
    That 's been the odd thing. Why the hell did people who loathe Thersa May keep her in office?
    Because there are worse alternatives
    Not any more.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,762
    williamglenn said:

    Foxy said:

    anothernick said:

    Excellent header, couldn't agree more.

    The Tories have not really had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher - none of her successors has tried to take the party out of its comfort zone or challenged the unrealistic preconceptions of its membership. May is the latest in a long line of mediocrities who have placed the prejudices of the ageing, shrinking band of activists ahead of everything else, including those of the country. History will not look kindly on any of them, May least of all.

    How does Cameron fit in that? For all his many faults, he did modernise the party, before the reactionaries took it back.
    He was riding on the shoulders of a brave party chairman who said they looked to people like the nasty party.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2002/oct/08/uk.conservatives2002
    Ridiculous! what would give people that idea?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited January 2019
    eek said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1087464235662221314

    Who on earth would donate to a campaign where the only thing on the table is a deal most MPs hate...
    This touches on why, if we do have an election soon, I think Brexit will barely feature, just as in 2017.

    Labour and the Tories will both have an interest in having Brexit written out of the script, because of the fact that their MPs are so split on it (and in the Tories' case, because it would remind people of the shambles that had triggered the election in the first place), so both will stick to the issues they feel they can win on, and on which both their MPs and voter bases are (relatively) united on. The Lib Dems will bang on endlessly about Brexit, of course, but (again as we saw last time) they are simply too insignificant to dictate the agenda if the big two won't play ball.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    I hope somene with better knowledge than me could set out the amendments, the effect, their support, and the overall trajectory for next week and beyond

    To be honest I do not have a clue

    This very good site is likely to have an explainer on them within a few days. I'll keep a look-out and flag it up when they have one:

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,943
    Foxy said:

    MikeL said:

    Does anyone have the wording of the Cooper amendment?

    And how would it have legal force?

    ie Would it compel May to revoke Article 50 if no deal approved by Commons? If not, how would it work?

    https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1087435251486519300
    So presumably if this gets passed this is why we'd need a general election?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,316
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1087468874054991872

    For those of us not following every twist and turn of this soap opera can anyone explain the significance?
    In short, Labour amendment won't pass.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,524
    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1087466213830209537

    Those plotting to resign backed her in the confidence vote (presumably). Why did they do so if hey were so unhappy with her leadership!? She's never given any indication she would compromise with Remainers despite obvious parliamentary arithmetic, so what did these ministers expect!?
    That 's been the odd thing. Why the hell did people who loathe Thersa May keep her in office?
    There's the thing though. It is quite difficult to loathe her. Irritation, frustration, infuriated, yes. She has held on so long precisely because her opponents can imagine a much worse replacement.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,451
    Norm said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    Norm said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    I dunno, TMay looks hopelessly incompetent right now but you have to wait to see the outcome.

    Imagine parliament "forces" a Remain vs Deal referendum on her. A few months from now we could easily have:
    * Brexit cancelled
    * Con leading in polls
    * TMay still PM
    * Her enemies marginalized, feuding and discredited

    ...and people will be asking if she planned the whole thing.

    A remainer drug ridden fantasy I'd suggest
    Which part don't you buy?
    I can imagine Brexit cancelled but the idea there'd still be a functioning Tory party afterwards is shall we say politely a tad unlikely.
    If Brexit gets cancelled, then I think Farage's new party will be riding high in the polls.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,759
    edited January 2019
    Norm said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    Norm said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    I dunno, TMay looks hopelessly incompetent right now but you have to wait to see the outcome.

    Imagine parliament "forces" a Remain vs Deal referendum on her. A few months from now we could easily have:
    * Brexit cancelled
    * Con leading in polls
    * TMay still PM
    * Her enemies marginalized, feuding and discredited

    ...and people will be asking if she planned the whole thing.

    A remainer drug ridden fantasy I'd suggest
    Which part don't you buy?
    I can imagine Brexit cancelled but the idea there'd still be a functioning Tory party afterwards is shall we say politely a tad unlikely.
    What do you think would happen to the Tory Party specifically? Is everybody going to leave?
This discussion has been closed.

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