politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Layla Moran now becomes favourite to become next LD leader
Comments
-
I thought Layla Moran had been favourite for a long time. Maybe it was previously Jo Swinson.0
-
This is a wrecking amendment, show of bad faith for the EU and a test for how gullible backbenchers are, all in one.
P1 is already in the WA.
P2 is impossible, since having the WA means the backstop is automatically implemented in the absence of a future deal.
P3 is meaningless since government can't compel EU to accept alternative arrangements.
P4 is impossible because WA doesn't provide for further extension of transition and can't compel the EU to do so either.
P5 is possible, but it's a "report" so who cares.
P6 is possible, but it's a "consultation" so who cares.0 -
I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.0
-
It seems as though the only one getting wound up about Putin is you, since every other comment of yours is somehow related to him.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
Anti semetic 'former Tory' in making the same insult over and over. Barking mad.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
I am skewered by your superior witty repartee, which is just above the moronic level of that fan of Vladimir, Mr AlanbrookeRichard_Tyndall said:
Like I said you really aren't bright enough to qualify. I will find you some colouring pencils to keep you occupied whilst the adults talk.Nigel_Foremain said:
Some are much more hostile than others though, that is why we have alliances dur!. Yep you really are an idiot, though whether you are useful only Mr Putin knows.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
0 -
dick a dachshund ?Nigel_Foremain said:
I am skewered by your superior witty repartee, which is just above the moronic level of that fan of Vladimir, Mr AlanbrookeRichard_Tyndall said:
Like I said you really aren't bright enough to qualify. I will find you some colouring pencils to keep you occupied whilst the adults talk.Nigel_Foremain said:
Some are much more hostile than others though, that is why we have alliances dur!. Yep you really are an idiot, though whether you are useful only Mr Putin knows.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
0 -
I mean, Brexit is very much a Putin project, so there's that.Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...0 -
It's also impossible for backbenchers to re-write the agreement, but we are where we are.grabcocque said:This is a wrecking amendment, show of bad faith for the EU and a test for how gullible backbenchers are, all in one.
P1 is already in the WA.
P2 is impossible, since having the WA means the backstop is automatically implemented in the absence of a future deal.
P3 is meaningless since government can't compel EU to accept alternative arrangements.
P4 is impossible because WA doesn't provide for further extension of transition and can't compel the EU to do so either.
P5 is possible, but it's a "report" so who cares.
P6 is possible, but it's a "consultation" so who cares.0 -
Difficult to see how the Tory Party survives in its current form. 117 MPs have no confidence in May and those that do don’t support her proposed legislation.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Indeed. Although the Leader of the Opposition could be considered part of that small minority.Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
Interesting analysis of MPs' contributions to the first meaningful vote debate.
https://twitter.com/elliott_xtensen/status/10830475648139714560 -
Her solution to every problem appears to be spend more. When asked with what money, her response is it pays for itself. When challenged that such and such think tank / academic institution says it won’t, she just claims but it will.Sandpit said:
She's Bernie's metaphorical granddaughter, fresh from student politics thinking she knows the answer to everything and enjoying her fifteen minutes of fame.FrancisUrquhart said:
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.Foxy said:
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=19
The nearest recent British equivalent was probably the SNP teenager from 2015, Mhairi Black.0 -
Imagine how this country might have been different had Mrs Thatcher looked at the polls in December 1981 and said - wow we are only on 23%. I might as well quit as its all utterly hopeless. And within 18 months she had won a landslide.kle4 said:
Indeed, very silly. Parliament failing to decide is unfortunate but a reason for a public vote. Polling is not.Sean_F said:
It would be a bit odd to press on with Brexit every time support reached 50%+1 while stopping whenever it fell to 50% - 1.Richard_Tyndall said:
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.williamglenn said:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
You could equally have decided why bother campaigning for leave in summer 2015 when one poll had remain 44 per cent ahead.
And lets not even go there with polling in April 2017 vs the election result in June.
When all appears lost - perhaps it isn't at all! Cos if you decide things by polls and change course or just give up based on their ebbs and flows nothing much ever radical would get done. Thatcher, leave and Corbyn didn't - and they were right.0 -
We are in a maze of twisty passages all alike.Slackbladder said:
It's also impossible for backbenchers to re-write the agreement, but we are where we are.0 -
But what would Putin prefer, an orderly Brexit or chaos to reign with more referendums dragging down the nation and the EU. Pretty sure if anyone is on Putin's side now is the FBPE lot.grabcocque said:
I mean, Brexit is very much a Putin project, so there's that.Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
I suspect government spin actually. They want to be seen as wrecking. Having read the amendment, I partly agree with you. I think 1b and 1c are incompatible with the WA, while the rest of the amendment is meaningless waffleRichard_Nabavi said:
I think it's more Tom Newton-Dunn's lack of understanding TBH.grabcocque said:
It isn't for me to decide, it's for the EU, who will no doubt be greatly amused with the UK's latest show of poor faith.Richard_Nabavi said:
Which bit of the Swire amendment do you think is incompatible with the WA?grabcocque said:
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
But these are clearly not normal times.
1b. parliamentary approval of the commencement of the powers implementing the Northern Ireland backstop; and c. the Government to have a duty to have an agreed future relationship or alternative arrangements one year after the Northern Ireland backstop coming into force, consistent with the framework for the future relationship as laid before the House, so that the Northern Ireland backstop ceases to apply;0 -
Apparently Belgium is as hostile to us as Russia. What planet are these people on?JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...0 -
Richard contradicts his own view by being completely ambivalent about being in a political union with Scotland despite being an English nationalist.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...0 -
Her line is that "deficits don't matter". Straight out of the Reagan playbook.FrancisUrquhart said:
Her solution to every problem appears to be spend more. When asked with what money, her response is it pays for itself. When challenged that such and such think tank / academic institution says it won’t, she just claims but it will.Sandpit said:
She's Bernie's metaphorical granddaughter, fresh from student politics thinking she knows the answer to everything and enjoying her fifteen minutes of fame.FrancisUrquhart said:
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.Foxy said:
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=19
The nearest recent British equivalent was probably the SNP teenager from 2015, Mhairi Black.0 -
Here, have another straw to clutch at in your argument...Brom said:
But what would Putin prefer, an orderly Brexit or chaos to reign with more referendums dragging down the nation and the EU. Pretty sure if anyone is on Putin's side now is the FBPE lot.grabcocque said:
I mean, Brexit is very much a Putin project, so there's that.Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
Ridiculous. If Brexit were overturned by the people in a referendum it would deal a hammer blow to Putin's aim of reordering Europe along 19th century balance of power lines.Brom said:
But what would Putin prefer, an orderly Brexit or chaos to reign with more referendums dragging down the nation and the EU. Pretty sure if anyone is on Putin's side now is the FBPE lot.grabcocque said:
I mean, Brexit is very much a Putin project, so there's that.Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
And Banks and Farage, the financier and cheerleader for Leave.TheKingofLangley said:
Indeed. Although the Leader of the Opposition could be considered part of that small minority.Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
It is a bit like CND in the Sixties and Eighties, many sincere Christians and Pacifists, manipulated by Communists, and I write that as a Christian CND supporter. We cannot always choose our allies, but undeniably Brexit and Trump are triumphs of Putins electronic warfare team, to which we in the civilised world have few countermeasures. He is like the drone disrupting our airfields.0 -
Given the EU's core competence is can kicking... Why not?Sean_F said:
I'm pretty sure the EU would not extend A50 in order to enable the House of Commons to decide what it wanted to do.ralphmalph said:One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.0 -
The 27 countries of the EU would like to thank the UK parliament for the excellence of their end of the pier show and look forward to its extended run.0
-
Full-scale Scottish VI poll, extracted from YouGov's recent 25,000 sized UK poll:
(compared with last YG equivalent)
SNP 40% (n/c)
Conservatives 25% (-2)
Labour 21% (-2)
Liberal Democrats 8% (+1)
Greens 3% (+1)
UKIP 2% (+1)
and
Hypothetical Scottish voting intentions for Westminster if a Brexit deal is passed by Conservative and Labour MPs, but opposed by SNP and Liberal Democrat MPs:
SNP 43%
Conservatives 27%
Labour 15%
Liberal Democrats 9%
from SCOT goes POP!
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/01/is-end-nigh-for-ruth-shock-yougov-poll.html0 -
Nutswilliamglenn said:
Richard contradicts his own view by being completely ambivalent about being in a political union with Scotland despite being an English nationalist.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...
Richard has coinsistently said he supports SIndy
in the fun three years on PB of the Indyref Richard consistently sided with the Nats0 -
A European Parliament election in May which they will not want UK MEPs being returned from....rcs1000 said:
Given the EU's core competence is can kicking... Why not?Sean_F said:
I'm pretty sure the EU would not extend A50 in order to enable the House of Commons to decide what it wanted to do.ralphmalph said:One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.0 -
Parts (b), (c) and (d) of the Squire amendment are directly contradictory to the WA. Part (a) is what the WA already says. The rest is waffle.0
-
One day you might say something sensible. Sadly, not today.JosiasJessop said:
Many Brexit supporters have said they'd see harm caused to Britain in order to get their wet-dream of being outside the EU. That harm means real people's jobs, incomes and lives.AmpfieldAndy said:
Stupid comment. Putin might be keen to see the break up of the EU or even Britain leave it but no more so Trump. Proving involvement is rather more difficult.JosiasJessop said:
If you're going to play that stupid game, then leave MPs are willing to bend over backwards and take it from Putin.AmpfieldAndy said:
Whereas Remain MPs can simply continue to get paid for doing nothing but what Brussels tells themJonathan said:I suspect that some Brexiteers are quite looking forward to us staying in and griping endlessly about betrayal without actually having to deliver anything.
If given a choice between the EU and Putin I'd take the Eu every time. Although at least one Brexiteer on here chooses Putin ...
Not too many Brexit supporters welcomed Putins’s aggression in Ukraine or welcomed his sanctioning Novichok in Salisbury. To pretend we are all Putin supporters is facile.
Parliament doing simply the EU’s bidding on the other hand has a long and undistinguished factual base.
That's your side. As I said above, one Brexiteer on here even said he'd prefer Putin.
Brexiteers a re traitorous winnets, one and all.0 -
So, the Deal is voted down, three days pass, and then the Government comes back and says that it can offer no plan B for the perfectly plausible reason that the EU has finished negotiating and won't reopen the Withdrawal Agreement. What do the rebels do then?
If Theresa May won't budge then, ultimately, the Conservative hardcore opponents of Brexit will, unless they throw in the towel, have no option but to leave the Party (and, if Labour holds together, presumably install Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister?) One or two of them in Remain-leaning seats might be able to survive by joining another party or as independents, but for most this would represent instant career death. Are enough of them willing to do it?0 -
To be fair to Richard, that’s not true. He is and has always been (as far as I know) a fairly passionate supporter of Scottish independence.williamglenn said:
Richard contradicts his own view by being completely ambivalent about being in a political union with Scotland despite being an English nationalist.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...0 -
She’s cute, young and dances well. A fantastic fake outrage story about republicans slating her on twitter or something like that she’s she has some savvy people behind her.Sandpit said:
She's Bernie's metaphorical granddaughter, fresh from student politics thinking she knows the answer to everything and enjoying her fifteen minutes of fame.FrancisUrquhart said:
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.Foxy said:
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=19
The nearest recent British equivalent was probably the SNP teenager from 2015, Mhairi Black.
0 -
+1williamglenn said:
Ridiculous. If Brexit were overturned by the people in a referendum it would deal a hammer blow to Putin's aim of reordering Europe along 19th century balance of power lines.Brom said:
But what would Putin prefer, an orderly Brexit or chaos to reign with more referendums dragging down the nation and the EU. Pretty sure if anyone is on Putin's side now is the FBPE lot.grabcocque said:
I mean, Brexit is very much a Putin project, so there's that.Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
I also hope if a second referendum is initiated the electoral commission scrutinise who is funding campaigns and where that money has come from.0 -
He supports Sindy but thinks it's totally up to them and doesn't support England taking the initiative and seeking independence from the UK.Alanbrooke said:
Nutswilliamglenn said:
Richard contradicts his own view by being completely ambivalent about being in a political union with Scotland despite being an English nationalist.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...
Richard has coinsistently said he supports SIndy
in the fun three years on PB of the Indyref Richard consistently sided with the Nats0 -
Given May now has 3 days to produce alternatives if her Deal is voted down perhaps she will propose a Leave with the Deal or No Deal referendum and force MPs to insert a Remain option if they have the numbers so she can blame it on them if we end up with EUref2 with a Remain option0
-
Why would anyone vote Leave and Remain?Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
I admire your unicorn view that everyone will live happily ever after but that simply isn't going to happen if we remained and elected more eurosceptic MEPs and the press got their claws further into the EU. It's falling apart at the seams without or without the UK.williamglenn said:
Ridiculous. If Brexit were overturned by the people in a referendum it would deal a hammer blow to Putin's aim of reordering Europe along 19th century balance of power lines.Brom said:
But what would Putin prefer, an orderly Brexit or chaos to reign with more referendums dragging down the nation and the EU. Pretty sure if anyone is on Putin's side now is the FBPE lot.grabcocque said:
I mean, Brexit is very much a Putin project, so there's that.Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
Don't tell Justinsarissa said:Full-scale Scottish VI poll, extracted from YouGov's recent 25,000 sized UK poll:
(compared with last YG equivalent)
SNP 40% (n/c)
Conservatives 25% (-2)
Labour 21% (-2)
Liberal Democrats 8% (+1)
Greens 3% (+1)
UKIP 2% (+1)
and
Hypothetical Scottish voting intentions for Westminster if a Brexit deal is passed by Conservative and Labour MPs, but opposed by SNP and Liberal Democrat MPs:
SNP 43%
Conservatives 27%
Labour 15%
Liberal Democrats 9%
from SCOT goes POP!
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/01/is-end-nigh-for-ruth-shock-yougov-poll.html0 -
Who knows the UK might end up with one of the least Eurosceptic delegations. The socialists also might welome a few extra Labour MEPs for a start given their likely collapse in Italy, France and Germany.eek said:
A European Parliament election in May which they will not want UK MEPs being returned from....rcs1000 said:
Given the EU's core competence is can kicking... Why not?Sean_F said:
I'm pretty sure the EU would not extend A50 in order to enable the House of Commons to decide what it wanted to do.ralphmalph said:One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.0 -
Labour too is split between inner city Remainers and working class Leavers in industrial areasAmpfieldAndy said:
Difficult to see how the Tory Party survives in its current form. 117 MPs have no confidence in May and those that do don’t support her proposed legislation.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Therefore Richard views Scotland as a foreign country to England. He tells us all foreign countries must be considered suspect, but he is happy to keep this cuckoo in the nest for as long as they want it. If he had the courage of his convictions he would actively support England seeking to dissolve the UK and not leave it up to Scotland to decide.Anazina said:
To be fair to Richard, that’s not true. He is and has always been (as far as I know) a fairly passionate supporter of Scottish independence.williamglenn said:
Richard contradicts his own view by being completely ambivalent about being in a political union with Scotland despite being an English nationalist.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...0 -
really this week youve just been reduced to making things upwilliamglenn said:
He supports Sindy but thinks it's totally up to them and doesn't support England taking the initiative and seeking independence from the UK.Alanbrooke said:
Nutswilliamglenn said:
Richard contradicts his own view by being completely ambivalent about being in a political union with Scotland despite being an English nationalist.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...
Richard has coinsistently said he supports SIndy
in the fun three years on PB of the Indyref Richard consistently sided with the Nats
first it was spanish population figures. then it was Greek GDP and now Richard is Edward 1
take a break0 -
I say many sensible things. The posts on this threads are a perfect example of my wisdom and all-round excellence.AmpfieldAndy said:
One day you might say something sensible. Sadly, not today.JosiasJessop said:
Many Brexit supporters have said they'd see harm caused to Britain in order to get their wet-dream of being outside the EU. That harm means real people's jobs, incomes and lives.AmpfieldAndy said:
Stupid comment. Putin might be keen to see the break up of the EU or even Britain leave it but no more so Trump. Proving involvement is rather more difficult.JosiasJessop said:
If you're going to play that stupid game, then leave MPs are willing to bend over backwards and take it from Putin.AmpfieldAndy said:
Whereas Remain MPs can simply continue to get paid for doing nothing but what Brussels tells themJonathan said:I suspect that some Brexiteers are quite looking forward to us staying in and griping endlessly about betrayal without actually having to deliver anything.
If given a choice between the EU and Putin I'd take the Eu every time. Although at least one Brexiteer on here chooses Putin ...
Not too many Brexit supporters welcomed Putins’s aggression in Ukraine or welcomed his sanctioning Novichok in Salisbury. To pretend we are all Putin supporters is facile.
Parliament doing simply the EU’s bidding on the other hand has a long and undistinguished factual base.
That's your side. As I said above, one Brexiteer on here even said he'd prefer Putin.
Brexiteers a re traitorous winnets, one and all.
As for you; you might want to look at your original comment: "Whereas Remain MPs can simply continue to get paid for doing nothing but what Brussels tells them"
If you really believe that, then you are accusing remain MPs of being traitors and taking orders from Brussels. If you really believe that then you are a stupid and nasty little troll.0 -
Why contradictory? (b) is a statement of the obvious. (c) puts the government under a duty, which is fair enough, just as they have other duties, not alas always carried out. There is no part (d), but if you mean paragraph 2, it is consistent with the assurances already given by the EU and which no doubt will be repeated in even clearer terms in the next few days.grabcocque said:Parts (b), (c) and (d) of the Squire amendment are directly contradictory to the WA. Part (a) is what the WA already says. The rest is waffle.
0 -
Can't say I've seen her dance, but yes she's a photogenic young lady who comes across well on a late night talk show. The Dem media team have definitely taken her to heart, and she's enjoying the publicity having never expected to win her primary.notme2 said:
She’s cute, young and dances well. A fantastic fake outrage story about republicans slating her on twitter or something like that she’s she has some savvy people behind her.Sandpit said:
She's Bernie's metaphorical granddaughter, fresh from student politics thinking she knows the answer to everything and enjoying her fifteen minutes of fame.FrancisUrquhart said:
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.Foxy said:
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=19
The nearest recent British equivalent was probably the SNP teenager from 2015, Mhairi Black.
0 -
(b) contradicts the WA because the WA makes the backstop automatic and not subject to parliamentary vetoRichard_Nabavi said:
Why contradictory? (b) is a statement of the obvious. (c) puts the government under a duty, which is fair enough, just as they have other duties, not alas always carried out. There is no part (d), but if you mean paragraph 2, it is consistent with the assurances already given by the EU and which no doubt will be repeated in even clearer terms in the next few days.grabcocque said:Parts (b), (c) and (d) of the Squire amendment are directly contradictory to the WA. Part (a) is what the WA already says. The rest is waffle.
(c) contradicts the WA because the government cannot compel the EU to accept alternative arrangements
(d) contradicts the WA becuase the WA contains no provision for further extension to the transition.0 -
I don`t think she`s that clever, Mr HY.HYUFD said:Given May now has 3 days to produce alternatives if her Deal is voted down perhaps she will propose a Leave with the Deal or No Deal referendum and force MPs to insert a Remain option if they have the numbers so she can blame it on them if we end up with EUref2 with a Remain option
0 -
Its one way to get her deal - and call Parliament's bluff as you say to add a remain option.HYUFD said:Given May now has 3 days to produce alternatives if her Deal is voted down perhaps she will propose a Leave with the Deal or No Deal referendum and force MPs to insert a Remain option if they have the numbers so she can blame it on them if we end up with EUref2 with a Remain option
Her line could be 'We voted to leave - I respect the 2016 referendum result. The only deal on offer to leave is my deal - and the only other option if we are going to leave is no deal'.
So its her deal or no deal - and lets put it to the people. Its a vote on the deal after all - as the people's vote campaign asked for.
She could then campaign for her deal and it would be for others to back her or back no deal.
And if she loses the referendum she can resign saying the public have spoken - you lot deal with it now - just like her predecessor.
Perhaps the Tories - most of them - could unite round that along with the DUP and squeak it through?0 -
I think the Dem media team are calculating they can goad the luminous orange ballbag into unleashing a torrent of horrific misogynistic abuse at her on Twitter.Sandpit said:
Can't say I've seen her dance, but yes she's a photogenic young lady who comes across well on a late night talk show. The Dem media team have definitely taken her to heart, and she's enjoying the publicity having never expected to win her primary.notme2 said:
She’s cute, young and dances well. A fantastic fake outrage story about republicans slating her on twitter or something like that she’s she has some savvy people behind her.Sandpit said:
She's Bernie's metaphorical granddaughter, fresh from student politics thinking she knows the answer to everything and enjoying her fifteen minutes of fame.FrancisUrquhart said:
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.Foxy said:
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=19
The nearest recent British equivalent was probably the SNP teenager from 2015, Mhairi Black.0 -
You need to read it more carefully. (b) for example require "parliamentary approval of the commencement of the powers implementing the Northern Ireland backstop".grabcocque said:
(b) contradicts the WA because the WA makes the backstop automatic and not subject to parliamentary vetoRichard_Nabavi said:
Why contradictory? (b) is a statement of the obvious. (c) puts the government under a duty, which is fair enough, just as they have other duties, not alas always carried out. There is no part (d), but if you mean paragraph 2, it is consistent with the assurances already given by the EU and which no doubt will be repeated in even clearer terms in the next few days.grabcocque said:Parts (b), (c) and (d) of the Squire amendment are directly contradictory to the WA. Part (a) is what the WA already says. The rest is waffle.
(c) contradicts the WA because the government cannot compel the EU to accept alternative arrangements
(d) contradicts the WA becuase the WA contains no provision for further extension to the transition.0 -
Really?Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
Putin has been playing a clever game of using the west's systems against it. Some of this is obvious (e.g. much of the stuff draining out of 55 Savushkina Street), and much of it is much more subtle than that.
Russia has massive resources, an incredibly able population and tremendous potential. Rather than use that to Make Russia Great Again, he is trying to bring the West down to his level. I think it's a barmy and dangerous thing to be trying, but it's his strategy. And as Brexit, Trump and others things show, he's managing it.
I fear his trolls and agents had an effect on Brexit; perhaps not directly (e.g. by payments to leavers or leave groups), but indirectly. It does not matter what support Putin has or has not got in his country, it's those who read tweets or Facebook messages from people claiming to be UK citizens but who are really in Russia.
The mood music matters, and there were many trolls.0 -
I
b) is incompatible. It demands parliamentary approval to institute the backstop.Richard_Nabavi said:
I think it's more Tom Newton-Dunn's lack of understanding TBH.grabcocque said:
It isn't for me to decide, it's for the EU, who will no doubt be greatly amused with the UK's latest show of poor faith.Richard_Nabavi said:
Which bit of the Swire amendment do you think is incompatible with the WA?grabcocque said:
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
But these are clearly not normal times.0 -
In fairness:FrancisUrquhart said:
Her solution to every problem appears to be spend more. When asked with what money, her response is it pays for itself. When challenged that such and such think tank / academic institution says it won’t, she just claims but it will.Sandpit said:
She's Bernie's metaphorical granddaughter, fresh from student politics thinking she knows the answer to everything and enjoying her fifteen minutes of fame.FrancisUrquhart said:
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.Foxy said:
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=19
The nearest recent British equivalent was probably the SNP teenager from 2015, Mhairi Black.
a: She proposed a 70% 'super-tax' rate for earnings above $10m; and
b: The GOP have under both of the last two GOP Presidents passed huge tax cuts under exactly this rationale.0 -
What the hell does that even mean?Richard_Nabavi said:
You need to read it more carefully. (b) for example require "parliamentary approval of the commencement of the powers implementing the Northern Ireland backstop".grabcocque said:
(b) contradicts the WA because the WA makes the backstop automatic and not subject to parliamentary vetoRichard_Nabavi said:
Why contradictory? (b) is a statement of the obvious. (c) puts the government under a duty, which is fair enough, just as they have other duties, not alas always carried out. There is no part (d), but if you mean paragraph 2, it is consistent with the assurances already given by the EU and which no doubt will be repeated in even clearer terms in the next few days.grabcocque said:Parts (b), (c) and (d) of the Squire amendment are directly contradictory to the WA. Part (a) is what the WA already says. The rest is waffle.
(c) contradicts the WA because the government cannot compel the EU to accept alternative arrangements
(d) contradicts the WA becuase the WA contains no provision for further extension to the transition.0 -
The European Parliament election problem is actually something that's very easy to forget in the general brouhaha about the circumstances under which an A50 extension might be granted. It's a serious problem for the EU - not least because of this:brendan16 said:
Who knows the UK might end up with one of the least Eurosceptic delegations. The socialists also might welome a few extra Labour MEPs for a start given their likely collapse in Italy, France and Germany.eek said:
A European Parliament election in May which they will not want UK MEPs being returned from....rcs1000 said:
Given the EU's core competence is can kicking... Why not?Sean_F said:
I'm pretty sure the EU would not extend A50 in order to enable the House of Commons to decide what it wanted to do.ralphmalph said:One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
"At the moment the Parliament boasts 751 seats, which is the maximum number allowed by the EU treaties. Following the decision, 27 of the UK's 73 seats will be redistributed to other countries, while the remaining 46 seats will be kept for future enlargements. This means the number of MEPs to be elected will be 705."
(source: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/eu-affairs/20180126STO94114/eu-elections-how-many-meps-will-each-country-get-in-2019)
So, some of our seats have already been allocated to other countries, and our allocation cannot, therefore, be restored. Yet, at the same time, if the UK were still a full EU member when the European Parliament elections took place, we'd presumably be entitled to claim all 73 seats?
If an extension were to be granted (most likely to permit a Deal/Remain referendum) then how would this be resolved? There's also the distinct possibility that a Leaver Betrayal slate could emerge out of nowhere to claim a huge chunk of the UK's allocation a la Ukip, which - with the predicted mauling of centrist establishment parties elsewhere - would be about as welcome as an outbreak of rabies with the members of said establishment.
The whole issue is actually one more reason why Brexit could proceed on schedule on March 29th, despite what the current betting markets suggest, and it is therefore well worth remembering.0 -
Are we looking at the same amendment?TOPPING said:I
b) is incompatible. It demands parliamentary approval to institute the backstop.Richard_Nabavi said:
I think it's more Tom Newton-Dunn's lack of understanding TBH.grabcocque said:
It isn't for me to decide, it's for the EU, who will no doubt be greatly amused with the UK's latest show of poor faith.Richard_Nabavi said:
Which bit of the Swire amendment do you think is incompatible with the WA?grabcocque said:
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
But these are clearly not normal times.
At end, add “subject to
1. legislation making provision that requires:
a. the Government
i. to report in March 2020 on the status of arrangements to supersede the
Northern Ireland backstop,
ii. to consider the views of the devolved Administrations, in particular the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, and
iii. to enable this House to approve the Government’s proposed approach, including whether or not an extension to the implementation period should be pursued;
b. parliamentary approval of the commencement of the powers implementing the Northern Ireland backstop; and
c. the Government to have a duty to have an agreed future relationship or alternative arrangements one year after the Northern Ireland backstop coming into force, consistent with the framework for the future relationship as laid before the House, so that the Northern Ireland backstop ceases to apply; and
2. the Government obtaining further assurance from the European Union that the Northern Ireland backstop would only be a temporary arrangement and that, in the event that it comes into force, both parties intend to agree a future relationship or alternative arrangements consistent with the Political Declaration one year after the end of the Implementation Period.”0 -
Rubbish. Scotland is currently a part of the United Kingdom and therefore not a foreign power. In addition unlike the EU it has no ability to dictate terms to us or instruct us over what is and is not legal. As and when it becomes independent it will be a foreign power and should be considered as such. It will be the duty of its government - just like that of other countries - to look after the interests of its citizens even when that causes potential and actual harm to another country such as ourselves.williamglenn said:
Therefore Richard views Scotland as a foreign country to England. He tells us all foreign countries must be considered suspect, but he is happy to keep this cuckoo in the nest for as long as they want it. If he had the courage of his convictions he would actively support England seeking to dissolve the UK and not leave it up to Scotland to decide.Anazina said:
To be fair to Richard, that’s not true. He is and has always been (as far as I know) a fairly passionate supporter of Scottish independence.williamglenn said:
Richard contradicts his own view by being completely ambivalent about being in a political union with Scotland despite being an English nationalist.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...
If a foreign government does not put its own citizens first then it is betraying those people. That is why it can never be trusted to remain a friend and ally.
Scotland currently does not hold that status.
Edit: And it is the very fact that I am not an English Nationalist in the way you understand it that means I do not consider it necessary to push for English independence. I am in favour of small government close to the people. I would be just as happy living in an independent Scotland as in an independent England so long as they were governed well with as little 'State' as possible.0 -
Bloody hell Carol Cadwalladr, some real reaches of logic there.JosiasJessop said:
Really?Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
Putin has been playing a clever game of using the west's systems against it. Some of this is obvious (e.g. much of the stuff draining out of 55 Savushkina Street), and much of it is much more subtle than that.
Russia has massive resources, an incredibly able population and tremendous potential. Rather than use that to Make Russia Great Again, he is trying to bring the West down to his level. I think it's a barmy and dangerous thing to be trying, but it's his strategy. And as Brexit, Trump and others things show, he's managing it.
I fear his trolls and agents had an effect on Brexit; perhaps not directly (e.g. by payments to leavers or leave groups), but indirectly. It does not matter what support Putin has or has not got in his country, it's those who read tweets or Facebook messages from people claiming to be UK citizens but who are really in Russia.
The mood music matters, and there were many trolls.0 -
Also, it'd be the SNP who'd insert the amendment and I don't think the SNP are terrified of being "blamed" for remaining.PClipp said:
I don`t think she`s that clever, Mr HY.HYUFD said:Given May now has 3 days to produce alternatives if her Deal is voted down perhaps she will propose a Leave with the Deal or No Deal referendum and force MPs to insert a Remain option if they have the numbers so she can blame it on them if we end up with EUref2 with a Remain option
0 -
So what if they don’t approve those powers?Richard_Nabavi said:
You need to read it more carefully. (b) for example require "parliamentary approval of the commencement of the powers implementing the Northern Ireland backstop".grabcocque said:
(b) contradicts the WA because the WA makes the backstop automatic and not subject to parliamentary vetoRichard_Nabavi said:
Why contradictory? (b) is a statement of the obvious. (c) puts the government under a duty, which is fair enough, just as they have other duties, not alas always carried out. There is no part (d), but if you mean paragraph 2, it is consistent with the assurances already given by the EU and which no doubt will be repeated in even clearer terms in the next few days.grabcocque said:Parts (b), (c) and (d) of the Squire amendment are directly contradictory to the WA. Part (a) is what the WA already says. The rest is waffle.
(c) contradicts the WA because the government cannot compel the EU to accept alternative arrangements
(d) contradicts the WA becuase the WA contains no provision for further extension to the transition.0 -
Nothing. Parliament typically has to pass legislation to implement the measures agreed in an international treaty.grabcocque said:
What the hell does that even mean?Richard_Nabavi said:
You need to read it more carefully. (b) for example require "parliamentary approval of the commencement of the powers implementing the Northern Ireland backstop".grabcocque said:
(b) contradicts the WA because the WA makes the backstop automatic and not subject to parliamentary vetoRichard_Nabavi said:
Why contradictory? (b) is a statement of the obvious. (c) puts the government under a duty, which is fair enough, just as they have other duties, not alas always carried out. There is no part (d), but if you mean paragraph 2, it is consistent with the assurances already given by the EU and which no doubt will be repeated in even clearer terms in the next few days.grabcocque said:Parts (b), (c) and (d) of the Squire amendment are directly contradictory to the WA. Part (a) is what the WA already says. The rest is waffle.
(c) contradicts the WA because the government cannot compel the EU to accept alternative arrangements
(d) contradicts the WA becuase the WA contains no provision for further extension to the transition.0 -
Well it would tie in with her statement it is her Deal or No DealPClipp said:
I don`t think she`s that clever, Mr HY.HYUFD said:Given May now has 3 days to produce alternatives if her Deal is voted down perhaps she will propose a Leave with the Deal or No Deal referendum and force MPs to insert a Remain option if they have the numbers so she can blame it on them if we end up with EUref2 with a Remain option
0 -
Do you care to actually address what I wrote, or are you only capable of insults? Where do you think I'm wrong?Brom said:
Bloody hell Carol Cadwalladr, some real reaches of logic there.JosiasJessop said:
Really?Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
Putin has been playing a clever game of using the west's systems against it. Some of this is obvious (e.g. much of the stuff draining out of 55 Savushkina Street), and much of it is much more subtle than that.
Russia has massive resources, an incredibly able population and tremendous potential. Rather than use that to Make Russia Great Again, he is trying to bring the West down to his level. I think it's a barmy and dangerous thing to be trying, but it's his strategy. And as Brexit, Trump and others things show, he's managing it.
I fear his trolls and agents had an effect on Brexit; perhaps not directly (e.g. by payments to leavers or leave groups), but indirectly. It does not matter what support Putin has or has not got in his country, it's those who read tweets or Facebook messages from people claiming to be UK citizens but who are really in Russia.
The mood music matters, and there were many trolls.0 -
Labour Leavers tend to be less committed though. It's generally a third or fourth tier concern, below health, jobs, public services and the like.HYUFD said:
Labour too is split between inner city Remainers and working class Leavers in industrial areasAmpfieldAndy said:
Difficult to see how the Tory Party survives in its current form. 117 MPs have no confidence in May and those that do don’t support her proposed legislation.TheScreamingEagles said:
0 -
Hey, just because it is your birthday there is no need for bad jokes like that.rcs1000 said:
Why would anyone vote Leave and Remain?Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
Given the vast majority of Tories back the Deal or No Deal and the DUP could back it with a No Deal option it could pass if you add Hoey, Field, Mann etc too. If Northern Ireland and Scotland back the Deal that also shuts the DUP and SNP upbrendan16 said:
Its one way to get her deal - and call Parliament's bluff as you say to add a remain option.HYUFD said:Given May now has 3 days to produce alternatives if her Deal is voted down perhaps she will propose a Leave with the Deal or No Deal referendum and force MPs to insert a Remain option if they have the numbers so she can blame it on them if we end up with EUref2 with a Remain option
Her line could be 'We voted to leave - I respect the 2016 referendum result. The only deal on offer to leave is my deal - and the only other option if we are going to leave is no deal'.
So its her deal or no deal - and lets put it to the people. Its a vote on the deal after all - as the people's vote campaign asked for.
She could then campaign for her deal and it would be for others to back her or back no deal.
And if she loses the referendum she can resign saying the public have spoken - you lot deal with it now - just like her predecessor.
Perhaps the Tories - most of them - could unite round that along with the DUP and squeak it through?0 -
I would be very surprised if the DUP were willing to back a referendum containing a Deal option - but in any event, there's not enough time left for a referendum to take place without an A50 extension, and I cleave to the opinion that the EU, even if it is willing and able to grant an extension in the first place, would only do so for a Remain/Deal binary vote. It gives them two outcomes that they have expressed themselves willing to work with; a Hard Brexit decision does not.brendan16 said:
Its one way to get her deal - and call Parliament's bluff as you say to add a remain option.HYUFD said:Given May now has 3 days to produce alternatives if her Deal is voted down perhaps she will propose a Leave with the Deal or No Deal referendum and force MPs to insert a Remain option if they have the numbers so she can blame it on them if we end up with EUref2 with a Remain option
Her line could be 'We voted to leave - I respect the 2016 referendum result. The only deal on offer to leave is my deal - and the only other option if we are going to leave is no deal'.
So its her deal or no deal - and lets put it to the people. Its a vote on the deal after all - as the people's vote campaign asked for.
She could then campaign for her deal and it would be for others to back her or back no deal.
And if she loses the referendum she can resign saying the public have spoken - you lot deal with it now - just like her predecessor.
Perhaps the Tories - most of them - could unite round that along with the DUP and squeak it through?0 -
Putin also opposes Isis and has put resources into destroying it. Does that mean we should support ISIS because Putin doesn't?JosiasJessop said:
Really?Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
Putin has been playing a clever game of using the west's systems against it. Some of this is obvious (e.g. much of the stuff draining out of 55 Savushkina Street), and much of it is much more subtle than that.
les
Russia has massive resources, an incredibly able population and tremendous potential. Rather than use that to Make Russia Great Again, he is trying to bring the West down to his level. I think it's a barmy and dangerous thing to be trying, but it's his strategy. And as Brexit, Trump and others things show, he's managing it.
I fear his trolls and agents had an effect on Brexit; perhaps not directly (e.g. by payments to leavers or leave groups), but indirectly. It does not matter what support Putin has or has not got in his country, it's those who read tweets or Facebook messages from people claiming to be UK citizens but who are really in Russia.
The mood music matters, and there were many trolls.
Its a crazy line of argument - of course no one even mentioned Putin or Russia as a factor in either vote until Brexit and Trump won. And then seemingly along with the red bus his oh so subtle intervention no one noticed as the time was apparently the entire cause of leave winning.
If social media drove Brexit why was the section of society - the old and poor - least likely to use social media and particularly twitter the most likely to vote leave and the most twitter engaged (young people) were massively pro remain.
Its as if austerity, large scale immigration and the destruction of manufacturing and secure jobs in the midlands, north and Wales never happened? But I presume Putin was responsible for those too?0 -
I said Greek GDP almost tripled which was correct. My point was to show that the same level of bubble would not have been possible in the UK if we had joined the Euro.Alanbrooke said:
really this week youve just been reduced to making things upwilliamglenn said:
He supports Sindy but thinks it's totally up to them and doesn't support England taking the initiative and seeking independence from the UK.Alanbrooke said:
Nutswilliamglenn said:
Richard contradicts his own view by being completely ambivalent about being in a political union with Scotland despite being an English nationalist.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...
Richard has coinsistently said he supports SIndy
in the fun three years on PB of the Indyref Richard consistently sided with the Nats
first it was spanish population figures. then it was Greek GDP and now Richard is Edward 1
take a break
And I said Spain's population increased more than the UK. I was just sloppy about the time period.
0 -
Ha, good point!grabcocque said:
I think the Dem media team are calculating they can goad the luminous orange ballbag into unleashing a torrent of horrific misogynistic abuse at her on Twitter.Sandpit said:
Can't say I've seen her dance, but yes she's a photogenic young lady who comes across well on a late night talk show. The Dem media team have definitely taken her to heart, and she's enjoying the publicity having never expected to win her primary.notme2 said:
She’s cute, young and dances well. A fantastic fake outrage story about republicans slating her on twitter or something like that she’s she has some savvy people behind her.Sandpit said:
She's Bernie's metaphorical granddaughter, fresh from student politics thinking she knows the answer to everything and enjoying her fifteen minutes of fame.FrancisUrquhart said:
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.Foxy said:
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=19
The nearest recent British equivalent was probably the SNP teenager from 2015, Mhairi Black.0 -
Some of them voted UKIP in 2015Peter_the_Punter said:
Labour Leavers tend to be less committed though. It's generally a third or fourth tier concern, below health, jobs, public services and the like.HYUFD said:
Labour too is split between inner city Remainers and working class Leavers in industrial areasAmpfieldAndy said:
Difficult to see how the Tory Party survives in its current form. 117 MPs have no confidence in May and those that do don’t support her proposed legislation.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
You win PB's Pedant of the Week award, Robert. We all knew perfectly well what he meant.rcs1000 said:
Why would anyone vote Leave and Remain?Sean_F said:
There is no Putin connection. Putin has a derisory level of support in this country from people who voted Leave and Remain.Nigel_Foremain said:I must say the Leave fanatics/Useful Idiots on here are getting very wound up about the Putin connection. They have become so convinced of their Nationalistic virtue, they are finding it hard to come to terms with their de facto betrayal of their country's best interests. It is like seeing a religious zealot finding something that questions the book of Genesis. It is always the fate of nationalists. Ultimately others in their own country pay the price of their stupidity.
0 -
What drama! And all for free. I used to do a lot of box sets but no need now. Just a matter of what to spend the savings on. Drugs, I suppose.
As to how it ends? Like all of the best shows, impossible to say.
What I would personally love to see, in the final episode, is something truly innovative. We go split-screen and on one of them the Hard Brexit Loons get a People's Vote with a thumping great 80% Remain result, whilst simultaneously on the other screen the Devious Remainer Weasels get a No Deal Brexit which turns out to be absolutely fine, economy picks up a bit if anything.
Is this too much to ask?0 -
Republican Twitter melting down over AOC is genuinely one of the funniest things that has happened in years.
When they posted the video of her dancing when she was in school as if this was some damning incriminating evidence I was in fits of laughter.0 -
I have yet to see any economy even China in its boomiest of boom years triple in a decade. The increase according to the IMF was closer to 60% in the period. Which while still noticeable was primarily fuelled by a crazy borrowing binge. Hence the countries problems today.williamglenn said:
I said Greek GDP almost tripled which was correct. My point was to show that the same level of bubble would not have been possible in the UK if we had joined the Euro.Alanbrooke said:
really this week youve just been reduced to making things upwilliamglenn said:
He supports Sindy but thinks it's totally up to them and doesn't support England taking the initiative and seeking independence from the UK.Alanbrooke said:
Nutswilliamglenn said:
Richard contradicts his own view by being completely ambivalent about being in a political union with Scotland despite being an English nationalist.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...
Richard has coinsistently said he supports SIndy
in the fun three years on PB of the Indyref Richard consistently sided with the Nats
first it was spanish population figures. then it was Greek GDP and now Richard is Edward 1
take a break
And I said Spain's population increased more than the UK. I was just sloppy about the time period.
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2018/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?sy=1980&ey=2023&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=174&s=NGDP_R,NGDP_RPCH,NGDPRPC,PCPIPCH,LUR,GGXWDG_NGDP&grp=0&a=&pr.x=26&pr.y=12
more info here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece0 -
Evening JJ. Polite question deserves a polite answer.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...
Yes. I do believe that. As I stated earlier (before I saw your question but after you posed it) the first and perhaps only duty of a government is to its people. That means that it can have no fixed loyalty to any other ally, country or organisation outside of that country. It can have temporary arrangements and even friendships but they should always be considered as fleeting at best. So whilst every country may not be actively or obviously hostile, every one must be considered as potentially hostile and acting in their own best interests. We can hope those match ours but we should never assume that will always be the case.
One only has to look at the recent history of French or US industrial espionage to see this in action.0 -
Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref0
-
People were mentioning the possibility of political intervention by foreign powers in the debate prior to the referendum - and got roundly shouted down by a load of verbal diarrhoea from leavers screeching "Project Fear!' The work of the Internet Research Agency was well known before then, and ISTR some of their pro-Brexit accounts were uncovered before the referendum.brendan16 said:Putin also opposes Isis and has put resources into destroying it. Does that mean we should support ISIS because Putin doesn't?
Its a crazy line of argument - of course no one even mentioned Putin or Russia as a factor in either vote until Brexit and Trump won. And then seemingly along with the red bus his oh so subtle intervention no one noticed as the time was apparently the entire cause of leave winning.
If social media drove Brexit why was the section of society - the old and poor - least likely to use social media and particularly twitter the most likely to vote leave and the most twitter engaged (young people) were massively pro remain.
Its as if austerity, large scale immigration and the destruction of manufacturing and secure jobs in the midlands, north and Wales never happened? But I presume Putin was responsible for those too?
And you may not have noticed, but people were talking about Trump's links with the Russians well before he won.
I'm not saying that the actions of Putin and his minions won the referendum; after all, there were plenty of sane reasons to vote leave. But I also find it remarkable to suggest that it did not have a positive effect for leave - and sadly we will never know the scale of that effect.0 -
Ah, so what we need to do is restore faith in Brexit by launching a major military operation.brendan16 said:
Imagine how this country might have been different had Mrs Thatcher looked at the polls in December 1981 and said - wow we are only on 23%. I might as well quit as its all utterly hopeless. And within 18 months she had won a landslide.kle4 said:
Indeed, very silly. Parliament failing to decide is unfortunate but a reason for a public vote. Polling is not.Sean_F said:
It would be a bit odd to press on with Brexit every time support reached 50%+1 while stopping whenever it fell to 50% - 1.Richard_Tyndall said:
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.williamglenn said:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
Maybe we could try retaking Calais. It would be one solution to queues of lorries in Kent.0 -
if it hadnt been for the last 4 words that might have been interestinggrabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
0 -
I don't think it is whether or not Putin had a direct impact on the result, though I think you would be foolish to think that he did not attempt to influence it, and probably did. Whether it was enough to make a difference is unknown. What is an important political point is that Putin sees Brexit as an important part of destabilising the West and weakening Europe and America. Those that are in favour of it are therefore helping a hostile power. That may be acceptable to some, but they are on pretty thin ice if they carry on with the nonsense about Brexit being patriotic. I don't really think all Leavers are traitors, and maybe calling them Useful Idiots maybe a bit harsh. Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.JosiasJessop said:
People were mentioning the possibility of political intervention by foreign powers in the debate prior to the referendum - and got roundly shouted down by a load of verbal diarrhoea from leavers screeching "Project Fear!' The work of the Internet Research Agency was well known before then, and ISTR some of their pro-Brexit accounts were uncovered before the referendum.brendan16 said:Putin also opposes Isis and has put resources into destroying it. Does that mean we should support ISIS because Putin doesn't?
Its a crazy line of argument - of course no one even mentioned Putin or Russia as a factor in either vote until Brexit and Trump won. And then seemingly along with the red bus his oh so subtle intervention no one noticed as the time was apparently the entire cause of leave winning.
If social media drove Brexit why was the section of society - the old and poor - least likely to use social media and particularly twitter the most likely to vote leave and the most twitter engaged (young people) were massively pro remain.
Its as if austerity, large scale immigration and the destruction of manufacturing and secure jobs in the midlands, north and Wales never happened? But I presume Putin was responsible for those too?
And you may not have noticed, but people were talking about Trump's links with the Russians well before he won.
I'm not saying that the actions of Putin and his minions won the referendum; after all, there were plenty of sane reasons to vote leave. But I also find it remarkable to suggest that it did not have a positive effect for leave - and sadly we will never know the scale of that effect.0 -
Has the Pope expressed an opinion on the issue - as the head of the largest religion now in the UK in terms of practising members?grabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
0 -
What is the point of sharing this information?grabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
0 -
Are we sure he didn't say '2nd rev'? I just think we should double-check before doing anything rash.grabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
0 -
We're a Judeo-Christian nation, it is important what the leader of the Church of England says.RoyalBlue said:
What is the point of sharing this information?grabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
0 -
Or even the last 5 words...Alanbrooke said:
if it hadnt been for the last 4 words that might have been interestinggrabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
0 -
https://twitter.com/churchstate/status/1083058855192551424Quincel said:
Are we sure he didn't say '2nd rev'? I just think we should double-check before doing anything rash.grabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
0 -
Do you agree that it's not plausible that the UK would have become like Greece had we joined the Euro?Alanbrooke said:
I have yet to see any economy even China in its boomiest of boom years triple in a decade. The increase according to the IMF was closer to 60% in the period. Which while still noticeable was primarily fuelled by a crazy borrowing binge. Hence the countries problems today.williamglenn said:I said Greek GDP almost tripled which was correct. My point was to show that the same level of bubble would not have been possible in the UK if we had joined the Euro.
And I said Spain's population increased more than the UK. I was just sloppy about the time period.
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2018/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?sy=1980&ey=2023&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=174&s=NGDP_R,NGDP_RPCH,NGDPRPC,PCPIPCH,LUR,GGXWDG_NGDP&grp=0&a=&pr.x=26&pr.y=12
more info here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece0 -
Polite question then, do you consider Russia to exhibit greater or lesser hostility than the 27 sovereign nations of the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
Evening JJ. Polite question deserves a polite answer.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...
Yes. I do believe that. As I stated earlier (before I saw your question but after you posed it) the first and perhaps only duty of a government is to its people. That means that it can have no fixed loyalty to any other ally, country or organisation outside of that country. It can have temporary arrangements and even friendships but they should always be considered as fleeting at best. So whilst every country may not be actively or obviously hostile, every one must be considered as potentially hostile and acting in their own best interests. We can hope those match ours but we should never assume that will always be the case.
One only has to look at the recent history of French or US industrial espionage to see this in action.0 -
Good evening. I'm currently dealing with a child who is ill (thankfully minor) and off school, so it's good to get away from dirty pants and wet wipes. And that's enough detail for everyone.Richard_Tyndall said:
Evening JJ. Polite question deserves a polite answer.JosiasJessop said:
Richard, do you really believe that? Is every foreign country hostile in your mind?Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
No wonder you voted UKIP. You fit in very well with them ...
Yes. I do believe that. As I stated earlier (before I saw your question but after you posed it) the first and perhaps only duty of a government is to its people. That means that it can have no fixed loyalty to any other ally, country or organisation outside of that country. It can have temporary arrangements and even friendships but they should always be considered as fleeting at best. So whilst every country may not be actively or obviously hostile, every one must be considered as potentially hostile and acting in their own best interests. We can hope those match ours but we should never assume that will always be the case.
One only has to look at the recent history of French or US industrial espionage to see this in action.
A dictionary definition of hostile is: "showing or feeling opposition or dislike; unfriendly."
I'd suggest that you are utterly wrong with that. Yes, countries have their own interests,
and perform things like industrial espionage against us - and we do against them (*). But such acts are minor, and the positive things that we agree on far outweigh those silly little games.
In other words, sometimes even best friends swear at each other. But that doesn't mean they're not friendly, and they're certainly not hostile.
(*) Its unsurprising you don't mention our espionage in all that. It rather reminds me of General Melchett...0 -
Fair play, that is quite goodAlanbrooke said:
if it hadnt been for the last 4 words that might have been interestinggrabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
0 -
What we've learned over the last few years is that the proper functioning of the UK constitution is entirely dependent on the abilities & goodwill of government ministers and MPs. Give those jobs to highly partisan, entirely self-interested cretins and it all falls to pieces.0
-
With what options?grabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
0 -
SandyRentool said:
Or even the last 5 words...Alanbrooke said:
if it hadnt been for the last 4 words that might have been interestinggrabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
nowilliamglenn said:
Do you agree that it's not plausible that the UK would have become like Greece had we joined the Euro?Alanbrooke said:
I have yet to see any economy even China in its boomiest of boom years triple in a decade. The increase according to the IMF was closer to 60% in the period. Which while still noticeable was primarily fuelled by a crazy borrowing binge. Hence the countries problems today.williamglenn said:I said Greek GDP almost tripled which was correct. My point was to show that the same level of bubble would not have been possible in the UK if we had joined the Euro.
And I said Spain's population increased more than the UK. I was just sloppy about the time period.
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2018/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?sy=1980&ey=2023&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=174&s=NGDP_R,NGDP_RPCH,NGDPRPC,PCPIPCH,LUR,GGXWDG_NGDP&grp=0&a=&pr.x=26&pr.y=12
more info here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece
we have a role model in Ireland which was an anglo saxon economy meeting german economics. The housing market went ballistic on cheap mortgage rates, construction couldnt keep up with orders and then it all crashed in 2009. If the UK had been in the Euro we would have crashed the entire currency,0 -
that is even better!SandyRentool said:
Or even the last 5 words...Alanbrooke said:
if it hadnt been for the last 4 words that might have been interestinggrabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
0 -
Is he going to pray for divine intervention to achieve one?grabcocque said:Archbishop of Canterbury just came out for a 2nd ref
0 -
Probably in the best soap tradition, on multiple cliffhangers.kinabalu said:What drama! And all for free. I used to do a lot of box sets but no need now. Just a matter of what to spend the savings on. Drugs, I suppose.
As to how it ends? Like all of the best shows, impossible to say.
Theresa May requests a six-month extension to the Brexit timetable seconds before being flung from the roof of Parliament by the power-hungry Chief Whip.
The real Jeremy Corbyn manages to escape from his captors and desperately tries to warn the world that he is being impersonated by his evil twin.
The whole of the Lib Dem parliamentary party is massacred by terrorists while attending a wedding in Moldavia.
Michael Gove is abducted by aliens in a flying saucer.
6,000 clones of Jacob Rees-Mogg are discovered in Brazil ....0
