politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Layla Moran now becomes favourite to become next LD leader
Comments
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She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.0 -
Don't go spoiling a beautiful city with a load of Eurobureaucracy. If the capital has to move (and it doesn't), then make it somewhere like Katowice.Alanbrooke said:
nah the capital should be further East - Prague or ViennaOldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
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as a dutchman once told my boss I love the Germans, Id just rather didnt all come at onceOldKingCole said:
LOL. The Flemish can do a pretty fair job, too!😉Alanbrooke said:
why do you keep picking on the Germans ?OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?0 -
I think you missed the irony in the posting you replied to. Leave have not been in Government in any meaningful sense since the referendum. It was Remainer May who was stupid enough to lose the Tory majority in 2017.MikeSmithson said:
And then managed to lose the CON majority in June 2017RobD said:
Leave took over government in 2016? I must have missed that one.Yellow_Submarine said:Don't forget the lack of momentum for Leave. Nothing has gone their way since the took over the government in July 2016. The polling has moved against them, the House of Commons became notionally even more Remain in 2017. Most of the claims of the Leave campaign have bern dynamited by reality and Brexiters themselves have split on the way forward. You need to see Brexit as a rocket that has still being going up for 2 + years but never achieved escape velocity. That's a key reason May's vassalage deal is so dreadful. Anything more internally coherent and clear would be even less popular.
This is of course entirely Brexiters fault. They've never ever acted like they were nursing a tiny 3.8% majority and facing a 2.5 year marathon between the referendum result and any Brexit day which was fraught with peril. It's a mixture of imperial overstretch pushing a very narrow win far too far and the crypto facistic " will of the people " stuff. The belief that one single marginal election result entitles them to the single biggest political change in post War history with no follow up work. They've acted like a screaming toddler demanding sweets at the checkout since 2016 and just haven't done the work.0 -
'Disgusting' and 'an absolute and utter disgrace'.!Sandpit said:Baroness Boothroyd overheard critisising Bercow now. His behaviour today "an utter disgrace"
https://order-order.com/2019/01/09/boothroyd-bercows-behaviour-disgusting-absolute-utter-disgrace/
Baroness Betty reminds me of lot of Mrs Brown off the tv - so it might have been absolute f**king' utter disgrace'!0 -
Anyway let's not declare Brexit dead yet. The three key dynamics now are #1 What do the ERGers do when they realise the choice is between May's deal and something even softer/no Brexit at all ? #2 Will the DUP use the ejector seat of making the good the enemy of the best on Brexit. You have to ask if Remaining via rejecting the Backstop is now their least worst option for preserving the Status Quo in Northern Ireland. #3 How many Brexiters now think the betrayal narrative of an A50 extension and subsequent fudge would actually be good for them in the longer term ?
I think we are now in Chaos Theory territory with those competing dynamics. But we shoukdn't rule out the numbers tightening on May's deal if #1 comes into play.0 -
Utterly irrelevant. Just like most of your comments.grabcocque said:
Putin is massively pro-Brexit.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.0 -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/31/farage-i-admire-putinMarqueeMark said:
So? Brexiteers aren't massively pro-Putin.grabcocque said:
Putin is massively pro-Brexit.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/18/new-ukip-leader-says-she-counts-vladimir-putin-as-a-political-hero
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In the same sense that the loony left weren't pro-USSR.MarqueeMark said:
So? Brexiteers aren't massively pro-Putin.grabcocque said:
Putin is massively pro-Brexit.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.0 -
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pickRichard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?0 -
They had no idea about anything. In all the years they spent moaning about the EU they never bothered to learn anything about it. They just enjoyed playing the game and making speeches with lots of references to liberty and tyranny.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude that ultimately they didn't care enough about Brexit to work for it. Which makes you wonder what it is that they really want.Yellow_Submarine said:Don't forget the lack of momentum for Leave. Nothing has gone their way since the took over the government in July 2016. The polling has moved against them, the House of Commons became notionally even more Remain in 2017. Most of the claims of the Leave campaign have bern dynamited by reality and Brexiters themselves have split on the way forward. You need to see Brexit as a rocket that has still being going up for 2 + years but never achieved escape velocity. That's a key reason May's vassalage deal is so dreadful. Anything more internally coherent and clear would be even less popular.
This is of course entirely Brexiters fault. They've never ever acted like they were nursing a tiny 3.8% majority and facing a 2.5 year marathon between the referendum result and any Brexit day which was fraught with peril. It's a mixture of imperial overstretch pushing a very narrow win far too far and the crypto facistic " will of the people " stuff. The belief that one single marginal election result entitles them to the single biggest political change in post War history with no follow up work. They've acted like a screaming toddler demanding sweets at the checkout since 2016 and just haven't done the work.
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You are very weird as well as stupidAlanbrooke said:
Always interting to hear views from the dog loving communityNigel_Foremain said:
Good to see you show your true allegiance. When will the other Brexit supporters follow suit? If your idea of a first rate political leader is someone who is an international thug who has no respect for the rule of law or any sense of decency, it says a lot about people with your political leanings. I am not surprised though.Alanbrooke said:
Vladimir Putin.Sean_F said:
It's hard to point to any first rate political leader in the West.Alanbrooke said:As we bewail the inadequacies of our MPs lets spare a thought Emmanuel Macron who is doing him damnedest to make the UK look competent.
His big effort to unite the nation hasnt even got off the ground and the chair has resigned because of a salry dispute.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/2019/01/09/25001-20190109ARTFIG00179-retrait-de-jouanno-l-opposition-juge-le-debat-national-mort-ne.php
meantime voters are now starting to turn out wherever he goes to tell him to clear off back to the Elysee
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2019/01/09/97001-20190109FILWWW00259-plus-de-100-personnes-a-creteil-contre-la-venue-de-macron.php
Though obviously he should be in the East :-)0 -
Idiotic and nonsensical, eh?Richard_Tyndall said:
That is an idiotic definition of No Deal. All 'No Deal' means is not this deal. If the EU came along with a deal that satisfied the ERG lot (I am not saying the would or should) or if they came along with individual deals in specific areas to try and mitigate the issues on a case by case basis for each side then I don't think there is a single person in Parliament who would refuse to do those deals.FF43 said:Genuine question: is May's Deal a runner?
If it isn't, I think the only viable alternatives are:
1. Recognise the UK doesn't have a clue about Brexit. Exit anyway on EU terms to completely blind Brexit and worry about what happens later. We have 20 months to sort that out until the transition period comes to an end.
2. Remain.
No Deal isn't serious. I don't expect starvation but it is predicated on never at any time having an arrangement of any kind with the EU. Which is nonsense. Otherwise we are dependent on the whim of the EU for stuff that we need, who can demand what they want in return and can switch off the arrangement at any time of their choosing. It is an absurdly weak position to put ourselves into.
Your definition is utterly nonsensical.
I refer to the so called "mini deals" of the so called "Managed No Deal". These are things we need from the EU, identified as necessary by the government's No Deal planning. They are separate from the unilateral time limited mitigation planned by the EU to allow an orderly transfer of jobs and business out of the UK and into the EU. The EU will make the same demands for the mini deals as for the Withdrawal Agreement, which was a reason to reject May's Deal. We would be in a very weak position to reject those demands this time. And because the mini deals are ad hoc rather than part of a framework, there is very little commitment from the other side to maintain them.
No Deal just isn't serious.
Edit But I am curious about whether PBers think May's Deal or a close variant will ultimately pass.0 -
Don't go spoiling a beautiful city with a load of Eurobureaucracy. If the capital has to move (and it doesn't), then make it somewhere like Katowice.david_herdson said:
nah the capital should be further East - Prague or Vienna
You do realise that the bureaucrats work indoors right? In offices?
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There are none so blind as those who won't see. Where did I say I was anti-democratic? I envisage a structure rather like that of the US, although obviously with functioning democratic processes in all the constituent states.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?0 -
Tony Blair has a record of siding with dictators.Nigel_Foremain said:
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pickRichard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?0 -
I suppose in Tommy Robinson's defence, he has not tried to murder anyone using a chemical or biological weapon and then joked about it, as far as we know.Sean_F said:
I prefer Tommy Robinson.Nigel_Foremain said:
Good to see you show your true allegiance. When will the other Brexit supporters follow suit? If your idea of a first rate political leader is someone who is an international thug who has no respect for the rule of law or any sense of decency, it says a lot about people with your political leanings. I am not surprised though.Alanbrooke said:
Vladimir Putin.Sean_F said:
It's hard to point to any first rate political leader in the West.Alanbrooke said:As we bewail the inadequacies of our MPs lets spare a thought Emmanuel Macron who is doing him damnedest to make the UK look competent.
His big effort to unite the nation hasnt even got off the ground and the chair has resigned because of a salry dispute.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/2019/01/09/25001-20190109ARTFIG00179-retrait-de-jouanno-l-opposition-juge-le-debat-national-mort-ne.php
meantime voters are now starting to turn out wherever he goes to tell him to clear off back to the Elysee
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2019/01/09/97001-20190109FILWWW00259-plus-de-100-personnes-a-creteil-contre-la-venue-de-macron.php
Though obviously he should be in the East :-)0 -
Nope. Anyone who would happily risk destroying public faith in democracy in this country - and I am looking straight at you Remoaners - are siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I wouldn't stoop to your level of calling them traitors because that implies them having some cognisance of what they are doing and generally Remoaners are just too dumb for that.Nigel_Foremain said:
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pickRichard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?0 -
She beat an established Democrat in the primary and was then almost guaranteed to be elected. The GOP have helped make her extra-popular amongst Twitter people by over the top attacks.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
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Don't panic.
Keep calm and carry on.
The current law says we leave with No Deal on March 29th 2019.0 -
Really? I never liked the man, but I thought the main criticism of him was that he was involved in the overthrow of a rather well known one.Sean_F said:
Tony Blair has a record of siding with dictators.Nigel_Foremain said:
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pickRichard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?0 -
Im dragging you down to my level and then Im going to beat you on experienceNigel_Foremain said:
You are very weird as well as stupidAlanbrooke said:
Always interting to hear views from the dog loving communityNigel_Foremain said:
Good to see you show your true allegiance. When will the other Brexit supporters follow suit? If your idea of a first rate political leader is someone who is an international thug who has no respect for the rule of law or any sense of decency, it says a lot about people with your political leanings. I am not surprised though.Alanbrooke said:
Vladimir Putin.Sean_F said:
It's hard to point to any first rate political leader in the West.Alanbrooke said:As we bewail the inadequacies of our MPs lets spare a thought Emmanuel Macron who is doing him damnedest to make the UK look competent.
His big effort to unite the nation hasnt even got off the ground and the chair has resigned because of a salry dispute.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/2019/01/09/25001-20190109ARTFIG00179-retrait-de-jouanno-l-opposition-juge-le-debat-national-mort-ne.php
meantime voters are now starting to turn out wherever he goes to tell him to clear off back to the Elysee
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2019/01/09/97001-20190109FILWWW00259-plus-de-100-personnes-a-creteil-contre-la-venue-de-macron.php
Though obviously he should be in the East :-)
but first why not tell us your about poochy fantasies ?0 -
The Unicorn Amendment. Looks like the government has just given up. We are becoming a failing state.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10830318657354301460 -
Now, he takes their shilling.Nigel_Foremain said:
Really? I never liked the man, but I thought the main criticism of him was that he was involved in the overthrow of a rather well known one.Sean_F said:
Tony Blair has a record of siding with dictators.Nigel_Foremain said:
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pickRichard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/24/tony-blair-advice-kazakh-president-protesters
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Given that it's meaningless it doesn't seem worth fighting over?SouthamObserver said:The Unicorn Amendment. Looks like the government has just given up. We are becoming a failing state.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10830318657354301460 -
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. Anyone who would happily risk destroying public faith in democracy in this country - and I am looking straight at you Remoaners - are siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I wouldn't stoop to your level of calling them traitors because that implies them having some cognisance of what they are doing and generally Remoaners are just too dumb for that.Nigel_Foremain said:
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pickRichard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?0 -
I'll leave you to tell us about your's you weirdo. I am not sure your hero Putin would approve, though maybe you should show us a picture of yourself stripped to the waist while riding a Chihuahua while holding a No Deal No Problem signAlanbrooke said:
Im dragging you down to my level and then Im going to beat you on experienceNigel_Foremain said:
You are very weird as well as stupidAlanbrooke said:
Always interting to hear views from the dog loving communityNigel_Foremain said:
Good to see you show your true allegiance. When will the other Brexit supporters follow suit? If your idea of a first rate political leader is someone who is an international thug who has no respect for the rule of law or any sense of decency, it says a lot about people with your political leanings. I am not surprised though.Alanbrooke said:
Vladimir Putin.Sean_F said:
It's hard to point to any first rate political leader in the West.Alanbrooke said:As we bewail the inadequacies of our MPs lets spare a thought Emmanuel Macron who is doing him damnedest to make the UK look competent.
His big effort to unite the nation hasnt even got off the ground and the chair has resigned because of a salry dispute.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/2019/01/09/25001-20190109ARTFIG00179-retrait-de-jouanno-l-opposition-juge-le-debat-national-mort-ne.php
meantime voters are now starting to turn out wherever he goes to tell him to clear off back to the Elysee
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2019/01/09/97001-20190109FILWWW00259-plus-de-100-personnes-a-creteil-contre-la-venue-de-macron.php
Though obviously he should be in the East :-)
but first why not tell us your about poochy fantasies ?0 -
williamglenn said:
on that basis will the SNP be shutting up shop ?Richard_Tyndall said:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.Nigel_Foremain said:
I think it is becoming apparent that the only peops are just too dumb for that.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?0 -
One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.0 -
What is the status of all these amendments both pro- and anti- Brexit? Are they binding on the Government?SouthamObserver said:The Unicorn Amendment. Looks like the government has just given up. We are becoming a failing state.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10830318657354301460 -
Which dictator said the price of Brexit is the handing over of Northern Ireland?Nigel_Foremain said:
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pickRichard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?0 -
poke a pug ?Nigel_Foremain said:
I'll leave you to tell us about your's you weirdo. I am not sure your hero Putin would approve, though maybe you should show us a picture of yourself stripped to the waist while riding a Chihuahua while holding a No Deal No Problem signAlanbrooke said:
Im dragging you down to my level and then Im going to beat you on experienceNigel_Foremain said:
You are very weird as well as stupidAlanbrooke said:
Always interting to hear views from the dog loving communityNigel_Foremain said:
Good to see you show your true allegiance. When will the other Brexit supporters follow suit? If your idea of a first rate political leader is someone who is an international thug who has no respect for the rule of law or any sense of decency, it says a lot about people with your political leanings. I am not surprised though.Alanbrooke said:
Vladimir Putin.Sean_F said:
It's hard to point to any first rate political leader in the West.Alanbrooke said:As we bewail the inadequacies of our MPs lets spare a thought Emmanuel Macron who is doing him damnedest to make the UK look competent.
His big effort to unite the nation hasnt even got off the ground and the chair has resigned because of a salry dispute.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/2019/01/09/25001-20190109ARTFIG00179-retrait-de-jouanno-l-opposition-juge-le-debat-national-mort-ne.php
meantime voters are now starting to turn out wherever he goes to tell him to clear off back to the Elysee
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2019/01/09/97001-20190109FILWWW00259-plus-de-100-personnes-a-creteil-contre-la-venue-de-macron.php
Though obviously he should be in the East :-)
but first why not tell us your about poochy fantasies ?0 -
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
https://twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=190 -
That's a wrecking amendment if ever I saw one.SouthamObserver said:The Unicorn Amendment. Looks like the government has just given up. We are becoming a failing state.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1083031865735430146
CAR CRASH INCOMING!0 -
I'm pretty sure the EU would not extend A50 in order to enable the House of Commons to decide what it wanted to do.ralphmalph said:One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.0 -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/23/-sp-blair-gaddafi-letter-thanks-spy-cooperation-libya-uk-dissidentsNigel_Foremain said:
Really? I never liked the man, but I thought the main criticism of him was that he was involved in the overthrow of a rather well known one.Sean_F said:
Tony Blair has a record of siding with dictators.Nigel_Foremain said:
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pickRichard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.Nigel_Foremain said:
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" MayPeterMannion said:The day the Brexit died.
Bye bye, Miss American Pie
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?0 -
No, your brand of unionism is dying out.Alanbrooke said:
on that basis will the SNP be shutting up shop ?williamglenn said:Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
0 -
Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.0
-
The Withdrawal Agreement is an international agreement, so it could never be binding. However, by passing legislation that explicitly contradicts the most important part of the WA would be an astonishing act of bad faith that will infuriate the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
What is the status of all these amendments both pro- and anti- Brexit? Are they binding on the Government?SouthamObserver said:The Unicorn Amendment. Looks like the government has just given up. We are becoming a failing state.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10830318657354301460 -
Looks like it but whatever next and where is the end destination - remain ?grabcocque said:
That's a wrecking amendment if ever I saw one.SouthamObserver said:The Unicorn Amendment. Looks like the government has just given up. We are becoming a failing state.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1083031865735430146
CAR CRASH INCOMING!0 -
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates. Every time she gets pushed hard on specifics, she gets in a total mess. But at the moment, the media like her because of back story, fresh face and drives the right totally nuts, with some ridiculous attacks on her clothes and some old dance video.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=190 -
Interesting. Would the EU proceed with the deal on that basis? Only if they are confident the amendment is never triggered, is my guess.SouthamObserver said:The Unicorn Amendment. Looks like the government has just given up. We are becoming a failing state.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10830318657354301460 -
I think the assumption they are making is that we would just keep extending and extending and then give up and never leave. Sometimes you need a deadline or you never finish anything.ralphmalph said:One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
Which if of course their intention. Once it is stopped it may never be restarted.0 -
The problem is that a majority of MPs don't support it, and don't wish to implement it - in spite of the manifestos on which they were elected *after* the result of the referendum. The faith being lost is that of the public in those they elected, the MPs should remember that they work for us.williamglenn said:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. Anyone who would happily risk destroying public faith in democracy in this country - and I am looking straight at you Remoaners - are siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I wouldn't stoop to your level of calling them traitors because that implies them having some cognisance of what they are doing and generally Remoaners are just too dumb for that.Nigel_Foremain said:
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pickRichard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:Richard_Tyndall said:Nigel_Foremain said:PeterMannion said:0 -
Great intervention from Starmer. As I said this morning A50 extention is the gateway drug we need. Any of the other options are too likely to provoke a backlash too powerfully and too soon. All Brexit has going for it is it's inevitability. Once that goes via an A50 extension everything is possible.0
-
They wouldn't extend article 50 if it could be used just to give the UK more time to prepare for no deal, but if parliament has blocked that, perhaps it changes the game.Sean_F said:
I'm pretty sure the EU would not extend A50 in order to enable the House of Commons to decide what it wanted to do.ralphmalph said:One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.0 -
Fredralism ? I think its on the up if anything, more local accountabilkity and less centralised decison making fits perfrctly well with the digital age.williamglenn said:
No, your brand of unionism is dying out.Alanbrooke said:
on that basis will the SNP be shutting up shop ?williamglenn said:Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
trying to live a life based on short bread tins less so.0 -
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.williamglenn said:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
0 -
That will change. Brexit is dead it just doesn't want to admit it yet.David_Evershed said:Don't panic.
Keep calm and carry on.
The current law says we leave with No Deal on March 29th 2019.0 -
Mr. F, aye, probably would for a referendum, though.
I do wonder if we'll see this happen:
May's deal is defeated heavily in the Commons
She threatens to unilaterally revoke Article 50 and implement a second referendum if it isn't backed next time
May's deal is defeated again
Article 50 is revoked, second referendum occurs0 -
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=190 -
At GE2017 a majority of voters voted for parties who rejected No Deal in their manifestos.Sandpit said:
The problem is that a majority of MPs don't support it, and don't wish to implement it - in spite of the manifestos on which they were elected *after* the result of the referendum. The faith being lost is that of the public in those they elected.williamglenn said:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. Anyone who would happily risk destroying public faith in democracy in this country - and I am looking straight at you Remoaners - are siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I wouldn't stoop to your level of calling them traitors because that implies them having some cognisance of what they are doing and generally Remoaners are just too dumb for that.Nigel_Foremain said:
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pickRichard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:Richard_Tyndall said:Nigel_Foremain said:PeterMannion said:0 -
Labour were elected on a manifesto that ruled out 'no deal' and ruled out supporting the government's Brexit plan. You can criticise their tactics for many reasons, but the lack of a mandate isn't one of them.Sandpit said:
The problem is that a majority of MPs don't support it, and don't wish to implement it - in spite of the manifestos on which they were elected *after* the result of the referendum. The faith being lost is that of the public in those they elected.williamglenn said:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. Anyone who would happily risk destroying public faith in democracy in this country - and I am looking straight at you Remoaners - are siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I wouldn't stoop to your level of calling them traitors because that implies them having some cognisance of what they are doing and generally Remoaners are just too dumb for that.Nigel_Foremain said:
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pickRichard_Tyndall said:
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.OldKingCole said:
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.Richard_Tyndall said:
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.OldKingCole said:
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.Richard_Tyndall said:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.IanB2 said:Richard_Tyndall said:Nigel_Foremain said:PeterMannion said:
May asked the public to "strengthen her hand" against the Brexit saboteurs, and they chose to weaken it.0 -
That's a drawback for a politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates. Every time she gets pushed hard on specifics, she gets in a total mess. But at the moment, the media like her because of back story, fresh face and drives the right totally nuts, with some ridiculous attacks on her clothes and some old dance video.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=190 -
The Hugo Swire amendment should be wrecking, but if it is not then it pushes May's deal into a substantially more Brexity Brexit.
It would be an astounding amendment to adopt in normal times.0 -
Except as you well know Parliament cannot block it. Even with an extended Article 50, if there is no deal then we would still leave without a deal once the extension had expired.williamglenn said:
They wouldn't extend article 50 if it could be used just to give the UK more time to prepare for no deal, but if parliament has blocked that, perhaps it changes the game.Sean_F said:
I'm pretty sure the EU would not extend A50 in order to enable the House of Commons to decide what it wanted to do.ralphmalph said:One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.0 -
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.Foxy said:
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=190 -
That's not what the Swire amendment says. I think it is actually consistent with the Withdrawal Agreement, provided the EU give a further assurance (repeating what they've already said).SouthamObserver said:The Unicorn Amendment. Looks like the government has just given up. We are becoming a failing state.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1083031865735430146
Look at the actual wording here:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmagenda/OP190109.pdf
Amendment (o), page 12.0 -
It would be a bit odd to press on with Brexit every time support reached 50%+1 while stopping whenever it fell to 50% - 1.Richard_Tyndall said:
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.williamglenn said:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.0 -
The whole point of the backstop is that it's an insurance policy and that it's automatic. Promising MPs a vote on something which is actually automatic is a wrecking amendment because it utterly contradicts the entire POINT of the backstop.brendan16 said:
Which if of course their intention. Once it is stopped it may never be restarted.
Normally Speakers would rule such obvious wrecking amendments out of order, but I think Bercow happy to give Brexiteers a chance to give the deal a damn good procedural kicking too.
It's only fair they should get a turn too.
0 -
I was thinking more of your mocking comments about people like Sturgeon and Varadkar who you feel don't know their place.Alanbrooke said:
Fredralism ? I think its on the up if anything, more local accountabilkity and less centralised decison making fits perfrctly well with the digital age.williamglenn said:
No, your brand of unionism is dying out.Alanbrooke said:
on that basis will the SNP be shutting up shop ?williamglenn said:Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
0 -
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?grabcocque said:
The Withdrawal Agreement is an international agreement, so it could never be binding. However, by passing legislation that explicitly contradicts the most important part of the WA would be an astonishing act of bad faith that will infuriate the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
What is the status of all these amendments both pro- and anti- Brexit? Are they binding on the Government?SouthamObserver said:The Unicorn Amendment. Looks like the government has just given up. We are becoming a failing state.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10830318657354301460 -
I'll let you into a little secret, Donald Trump isn't even the worst person in the world named Donald Trump.FrancisUrquhart said:
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.Foxy said:
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=19
https://twitter.com/EmmaKennedy/status/10830396943912632320 -
We have a lot more populist nonsense from both sides to get through first.FrancisUrquhart said:
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.Foxy said:
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=190 -
For anyone that voted for all this pointless nonsense to call anyone dumb is beyond parodyRichard_Tyndall said:
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.williamglenn said:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.0 -
Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?Richard_Nabavi said:
That's not what the Swire amendment says. I think it is actually consistent with the Withdrawal Agreement, provided the EU give a further assurance (repeating what they've already said).SouthamObserver said:The Unicorn Amendment. Looks like the government has just given up. We are becoming a failing state.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1083031865735430146
Look at the actual wording here:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmagenda/OP190109.pdf
Amendment (o), page 12.0 -
Clarke's idea of a reasonable extension would be about five years, and in a way he is right.ralphmalph said:One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
If the Leave 'team' had announced on winning the referendum that they would need a bit of time, planning and leadership to implement the daunting task of extricating the country from forty years of EU agreements they would have been showing the kind of realism that may have ultimately led to the realisation of a sustainable and coherent Brexit. It may have taken five years or so, but it would have been a journey with a credible route and achievable outcome.
They acted instead as if it would all be as easy as flicking a switch, and thus revealed a degree of political immaturity that might have been excusable from the rank of file of their supporters, but not from their leaders.0 -
Well as he never read the deal, he doesn’t know much.RobD said:
Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?Richard_Nabavi said:
That's not what the Swire amendment says. I think it is actually consistent with the Withdrawal Agreement, provided the EU give a further assurance (repeating what they've already said).SouthamObserver said:The Unicorn Amendment. Looks like the government has just given up. We are becoming a failing state.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1083031865735430146
Look at the actual wording here:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmagenda/OP190109.pdf
Amendment (o), page 12.0 -
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
0 -
His amendment is subject to this condition - so if there is no assurance and further agrement it becomes academic?:Pulpstar said:The Hugo Swire amendment should be wrecking, but if it is not then it pushes May's deal into a substantially more Brexity Brexit.
It would be an astounding amendment to adopt in normal times.
2. the Government obtaining further assurance from the European Union that the
Northern Ireland backstop would only be a temporary arrangement and that, in the
event that it comes into force, both parties intend to agree a future relationship or
alternative arrangements consistent with the Political Declaration one year after the
end of the Implementation Period.”0 -
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.RobD said:Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
0 -
chippy young williamwilliamglenn said:
I was thinking more of your mocking comments about people like Sturgeon and Varadkar who you feel don't know their place.Alanbrooke said:
Fredralism ? I think its on the up if anything, more local accountabilkity and less centralised decison making fits perfrctly well with the digital age.williamglenn said:
No, your brand of unionism is dying out.Alanbrooke said:
on that basis will the SNP be shutting up shop ?williamglenn said:Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
it has nothing to do with knowing their place and everything to do with disagreeing with their politics.0 -
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
But these are clearly not normal times.0 -
She's Bernie's metaphorical granddaughter, fresh from student politics thinking she knows the answer to everything and enjoying her fifteen minutes of fame.FrancisUrquhart said:
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.Foxy said:
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?FrancisUrquhart said:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.Foxy said:
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:grabcocque said:
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.OldKingCole said:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.Stark_Dawning said:Sorry, but who is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? (I ask because Brendan's exploded over her https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/01/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-the-female-justin-trudeau/)
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=19
The nearest recent British equivalent was probably the SNP teenager from 2015, Mhairi Black.0 -
So by accepting the amendment May has effectively bypassed Bercow? Interesting to see where that goes now.grabcocque said:
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
But these are clearly not normal times.0 -
The EU is not a foreign power unless we leave it.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
0 -
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?Richard_Nabavi said:
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.RobD said:Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.0 -
Indeed, very silly. Parliament failing to decide is unfortunate but a reason for a public vote. Polling is not.Sean_F said:
It would be a bit odd to press on with Brexit every time support reached 50%+1 while stopping whenever it fell to 50% - 1.Richard_Tyndall said:
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.williamglenn said:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
0 -
Which bit of the Swire amendment do you think is incompatible with the WA?grabcocque said:
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
But these are clearly not normal times.0 -
It doesn't say anything about forbidding negotiation, I think it's just a deal cannot be concluded before we leave.grabcocque said:
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?Richard_Nabavi said:
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.RobD said:Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.0 -
It looks a hell of a lot like the government just voluntarily accepted a wrecking amendment, yes. Nothing makes sense any more.Richard_Tyndall said:
So by accepting the amendment May has effectively bypassed Bercow? Interesting to see where that goes now.grabcocque said:
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
But these are clearly not normal times.0 -
Slightly off topic, but here's an obvious point I hadn't thought of before.
https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/10830461205390213120 -
one minute you say its a legal framework next minute its a powerwilliamglenn said:
The EU is not a foreign power unless we leave it.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
oh well twas ever thus0 -
Same question again though Peter. What Leave Team? There has been no Leave team in any position to make such statements since the referendum as the whole thing has been directed and controlled on the UK side by a Remain supporter.Peter_the_Punter said:
Clarke's idea of a reasonable extension would be about five years, and in a way he is right.ralphmalph said:One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
If the Leave 'team' had announced on winning the referendum that they would need a bit of time, planning and leadership to implement the daunting task of extricating the country from forty years of EU agreements they would have been showing the kind of realism that may have ultimately led to the realisation of a sustainable and coherent Brexit. It may have taken five years or so, but it would have been a journey with a credible route and achievable outcome.
They acted instead as if it would all be as easy as flicking a switch, and thus revealed a degree of political immaturity that might have been excusable from the rank of file of their supporters, but not from their leaders.0 -
Article 50 doesn't say we can't negotiate the final relationship in parallel with the withdrawal agreement. In fact it rather implies that is what should happen.grabcocque said:
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?Richard_Nabavi said:
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.RobD said:Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.0 -
Well, you do rather neatly illustrate there the problem with government by referendum, Sean.Sean_F said:
It would be a bit odd to press on with Brexit every time support reached 50%+1 while stopping whenever it fell to 50% - 1.Richard_Tyndall said:
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.williamglenn said:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.0 -
It isn't for me to decide, it's for the EU, who will no doubt be greatly amused with the UK's latest show of poor faith.Richard_Nabavi said:
Which bit of the Swire amendment do you think is incompatible with the WA?grabcocque said:
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
But these are clearly not normal times.0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
It's a pity. I liked Marion Little. I suspect she's taken one for the team.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
There isn't an awful lot to read. Note my bold in Para 2.grabcocque said:
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?Richard_Nabavi said:
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.RobD said:Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.0 -
I think it's more Tom Newton-Dunn's lack of understanding TBH.grabcocque said:
It isn't for me to decide, it's for the EU, who will no doubt be greatly amused with the UK's latest show of poor faith.Richard_Nabavi said:
Which bit of the Swire amendment do you think is incompatible with the WA?grabcocque said:
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
But these are clearly not normal times.0 -
A50 only empowers the EU to conclude a withdrawal agreement. Lisbon is very clear on this: the EU has no standing to negotiate a trade agreement with a member, only a third country. i.e. the UK *has* to leave first.Richard_Nabavi said:
Article 50 doesn't say we can't negotiate the final relationship in parallel with the withdrawal agreement. In fact it rather implies that is what should happen.grabcocque said:
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?Richard_Nabavi said:
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.RobD said:Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.
Don't be getting all David Davis on us now, Richard.0 -
The Tories seem to forget that they do not have a majority. If May hadn't thrown hers away she would have easily beaten Grieve's amendment today. Bercow has changed nothing.0
-
Either way it's not Theresa May's fault, is it?grabcocque said:
A50 only empowers the EU to conclude a withdrawal agreement. Lisbon is very clear on this: the EU has no standing to negotiate a trade agreement with a member, only a third country. i.e. the UK *has* to leave first.Richard_Nabavi said:
Article 50 doesn't say we can't negotiate the final relationship in parallel with the withdrawal agreement. In fact it rather implies that is what should happen.grabcocque said:
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?Richard_Nabavi said:
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.RobD said:Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.
Don't be getting all David Davis on us now, Richard.0 -
Some are much more hostile than others though, that is why we have alliances dur!. Yep you really are an idiot, though whether you are useful only Mr Putin knows.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
0 -
There is nothing in Article 50 that forbids the negotiation of the final relationship before we have left. Indeed it explicitly says that the negotiations must take into the account the framework of such an agreement. But no where does it say that agreement cannot be negotiated.grabcocque said:
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?Richard_Nabavi said:
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.RobD said:Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.0 -
Like I said you really aren't bright enough to qualify. I will find you some colouring pencils to keep you occupied whilst the adults talk.Nigel_Foremain said:
Some are much more hostile than others though, that is why we have alliances dur!. Yep you really are an idiot, though whether you are useful only Mr Putin knows.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.Nigel_Foremain said:Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
0 -
And why so, Richard? Where was the Leave leadership, where was its plan?Richard_Tyndall said:
Same question again though Peter. What Leave Team? There has been no Leave team in any position to make such statements since the referendum as the whole thing has been directed and controlled on the UK side by a Remain supporter.Peter_the_Punter said:
Clarke's idea of a reasonable extension would be about five years, and in a way he is right.ralphmalph said:One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
If the Leave 'team' had announced on winning the referendum that they would need a bit of time, planning and leadership to implement the daunting task of extricating the country from forty years of EU agreements they would have been showing the kind of realism that may have ultimately led to the realisation of a sustainable and coherent Brexit. It may have taken five years or so, but it would have been a journey with a credible route and achievable outcome.
They acted instead as if it would all be as easy as flicking a switch, and thus revealed a degree of political immaturity that might have been excusable from the rank of file of their supporters, but not from their leaders.
Without a plan and the people to put it into effect, there was no implementable Leave option on the referendum ballot. Genuine Leavers have a right to feel aggrieved about this, but they can hardly blame Remainers for it, and a fat lot of good it will do if they try.0
