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Did you actually say 'live, love and work'? What a turd of a phrase.grabcocque said:
Again, symbolism, not cost.Sean_F said:
Hardly, It's trivial.grabcocque said:
It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.Sean_F said:
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.Philip_Thompson said:
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?Scott_P said:I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857
It represents May successfully denuding UK citizens of the rights they've possessed for 40 years to live, love and work in 28 countries.
It's a symbol of the stripping of those rights away from UK citizens, and the pride with which she has done it.
This 7 euro fee is your grovelling to the EU saying "Please let me in; I acknowledge Mrs May has stripped me of my rights".
It's powerfully symbolic, and will stand as a totem that everything May tried to take away from us.
Or at least it would if we were leaving the EU, which we aren't.0 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4RobD said:
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.0 -
For the sake of £7 ? None.steve_garner said:
You might also wonder how many Brits will say ok, we'll take our hols at home instead.Scott_P said:I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/10735461033064898570 -
On one level yes - no one is suggesting that's the ideal state, it is only for a gap between transtion ending and the final trade deal kicking in.Philip_Thompson said:
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
But in another sense, that's exactly what Brexit is. I acknowledge that you and many other passionate Brexiteers hate it. It's not what you hoped for after the vote. But the Irish border was never going to be ignorable and this is exactly the consequence of the Brexit vote. This is exactly what Brexit is.0 -
Was it really necessary to post that?grabcocque said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4RobD said:
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.0 -
thats the problem with Varadkar hes been winding up the green tub thumpers to get votes. I cant respect the man since he has undone a decade of solid work to normalise realations between UK and RoI and all because he wants to win an election.SeanT said:
I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.Alanbrooke said:
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurtsSeanT said:
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.Philip_Thompson said:
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to whf the EU to me.Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on tned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.
It will be ugly.
Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.0 -
A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.Alanbrooke said:Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?
That is the message I am hearing.0 -
The Republic of Ireland is not even in the Commonwealth and does not have the Queen as its Head of State and is in the Eurozone, it is now no more a British ally than Belgium. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Caribbean states, the USA, Austria, Italy, Switzerland etc are all closer allies of the UK now than IrelandSeanT said:
I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.Alanbrooke said:
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurtsSeanT said:
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU nace, the Enemy.Philip_Thompson said:
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
It will be ugly.
Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.0 -
Scott_P said:
Freer Trade Agreement would be more correct.0 -
Distinction without a difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just a point of order. It was the ECJ not the EU who made the rulingSeanT said:
Actually the EU has said we can rejoin with the same deal we had. Not Cameron's deal. but the status quo before his "renegotiation".dixiedean said:
I really didn't think that through did I? Still it seems to be a la mode these days.Andrew said:
Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.dixiedean said:
Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.edmundintokyo said:
You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.dixiedean said:Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30?
We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.
The ECJ is a pillar of the EU.0 -
Where in the GFA does it say that there cannot be a customs border?kinabalu said:
A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.Alanbrooke said:Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?
That is the message I am hearing.0 -
I do love a good live tear up. Not been for donkeys years, closest I have been in recent years is when my hotel reservation got messed up and I was relocated to a hotel in central Swindon in which from the 10 floor I got a cracking view of the Friday night carnage.TOPPING said:
Speaking of which, and I say this because I think @FrancisUrquhart is a fan, there should be a cracking fight tonight at York Hall - Larry Ekundayo, who lost, with a damaged hand, to Gary Corcoran, who then went on to fight Manny, is defending his IBF Welterweight strap vs. Louis Greene. He (Larry) should go far beyond this defence.AlastairMeeks said:If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.
I'll be there (next PB get together??!) but it's also being live-streamed on BoxNation.0 -
In which case, we need that clarifying urgently. Not the nonsense May is pantomiming right now. We need clear, unambiguous alternatives to choose from.SeanT said:
Actually the EU has said we can rejoin with the same deal we had. Not Cameron's deal. but the status quo before his "renegotiation".dixiedean said:
I really didn't think that through did I? Still it seems to be a la mode these days.Andrew said:
Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.dixiedean said:
Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.edmundintokyo said:
You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.dixiedean said:Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30?
We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.0 -
As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.RobD said:
Was it really necessary to post that?grabcocque said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4RobD said:
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.
The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.0 -
Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimateSeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
But Parliament won’t give that0 -
Probably better to say it in words, rather than having to listen to a whiny childgrabcocque said:
As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.RobD said:
Was it really necessary to post that?grabcocque said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4RobD said:
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.
The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
0 -
I reckon at least three of those are dead by now.grabcocque said:
I'm number 4 on the Wall of Gammon.SeanT said:
"Gammons" is a ridiculous and juvenile word. Beneath you. Especially as you are quite gammony yourself.
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Osborne lickspittle at work still I see.grabcocque said:
As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.RobD said:
Was it really necessary to post that?grabcocque said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4RobD said:
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.
The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.0 -
You misunderstand my point. It's not about money, although for families it's not just £7 (payable every 3 years), it's about principle. The EU that apparently wants us all to feel the bleak midwinter is not endearing itself to many leavers and they will look for alternatives.Pulpstar said:
For the sake of £7 ? None.steve_garner said:
You might also wonder how many Brits will say ok, we'll take our hols at home instead.Scott_P said:I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/10735461033064898570 -
Fascinating book isn’t it. I found a site where Harari is reading it. Hadn’t thought of that parallel, but you’re right.Charles said:
I’ve been reading Sapiens (highly recommended) on the agricultural revolution.TheScreamingEagles said:
You need to break a few eggs to make an omelette.grabcocque said:
Apart from the sixty million people who died, obvs.TheScreamingEagles said:
It’ll be fun.SeanT said:
Oh god. We really are fucked, aren't we?SouthamObserver said:She really doesn’t help herself ...
https://twitter.com/jamescrisp6/status/1073378170898919424?s=21
I’m really looking forward to No Deal.
We survived WWII we can survive this.
A bit of short term pain for the long term gain of Rejoining.
Argument is that individual Homo sapiens suffered from the shift but there was a massive increase in number, so from a purely evolutionary numbers game it was a win for the species.
If you assume that concepts (say “nationalism”) have the same “desire” to spread as genes (I think was the original idea behind the concept of meme, rather than cat pictures) then something like Brexit could be seen in a similar light
The “British idea” avoids been subsumed into “European idea” even though it is costly to British individuals0 -
May's Deal is imperfect but ends free movement and leaves the EU, if we Remain now we will likely never leaveSeanT said:
I'm not sure I want TMay's deal, with its indefinite backstop. I think Remain is probably preferable, however humiliating.HYUFD said:
May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No DealSeanT said:
I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)David_Evershed said:
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
Anyway, his/her idea was:
A two stage referendum
First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No
If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
Of course if there was a sensible Leave option, I'd far prefer that. But, there isn't.0 -
If there is one it'll be deal v remain. There is no point in Deal v No Deal since everyone knows that means Deal and Parliament has the power to vote that through anyway, without the delay, uncertainty and potential market and political turmoil of a referendum.Charles said:
Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimateSeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
But Parliament won’t give that
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huh? You have lost thousands on the exchange rate when you buy your straw donkey in torremelinos.RobD said:
As it is valid for three years, you'd have to go to the EU for several hundred years for it to cost thousands!TOPPING said:
Beyond the wit or intellect of Leavers to understand that @ $1.25/€1.10 (today, just wait for a no deal) they could indeed be thousands of pounds worse off.Philip_Thompson said:
Precisely. When remainers were arguing we would be thousands per household worse off and leavers were saying we would be hundreds of millions as a nation better off ... truly this is chickenfeed.Sean_F said:
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.Philip_Thompson said:
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?Scott_P said:I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857
Unless of course as has been mentioned, everyone goes to Clacton where the laws of supply and demand will be voluntarily suspended.0 -
No Remain would see a far right party surge, the Deal remains the only compromiseOort said:
Indeed. I prefer the first order because Remain would have a better chance of winning. But May's deal is not going to be an option in any referendum. Say there is (or would be) a 200 Commons majority against it. A hundred MPs who think it's a crock would have to vote to put it to the electorate.HYUFD said:
May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No DealSeanT said:
I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)David_Evershed said:
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
Anyway, his/her idea was:
A two stage referendum
First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No
If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
If there were more sanity, people would shake hands and realise that the option that pisses off fewest rational people least is the status quo, Remain. Spartan if.0 -
So we will be even more entwined in the EU after a vote to leave it completely than if we'd voted to remain.SeanT said:
Actually the EU has said we can rejoin with the same deal we had. Not Cameron's deal. but the status quo before his "renegotiation".dixiedean said:
I really didn't think that through did I? Still it seems to be a la mode these days.Andrew said:
Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.dixiedean said:
Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.edmundintokyo said:
You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.dixiedean said:Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30?
We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.
Sums it all up doesn't it?0 -
Corbyn's policy though is permanent Customs Union not No Deal so that would be the end resultSeanT said:
I tend to agree with you, but parliamentary arithmetic - and Jeremy Corbyn - mean we are headed for No Deal. Brexit means Brexit and it now cannot be stopped, and Brexit means No Deal, and Brexit on March 29kinabalu said:I'm on the verge of changing my mind. It is looking increasingly likely that Brexit, like Basil's duck, is off. Not because the chef is pissed in this case but rather sunk by its own contradictions. Only Corbyn can save it and why would he. It appears that Brexit cannot happen for the very reason that its most ardent supporters say that it must, i.e. to regain our sovereignty. Because if we need to regain our sovereignty, it means that we have lost it. And if we have lost it, it follows that even if we want to leave the European Union we effectively cannot. Which is precisely where we are. We can't leave without a deal because that would trash the economy and lead to bloodshed in Ireland, and we can't leave with a deal because all available deals tie us so close that it's not really worth leaving. It's a killer. Brexit is impossible because it is necessary and necessary because it is impossible. We can sum this up with a slogan, which I normally dislike but for this I will make an exception.
Brexit Means No Brexit.0 -
Nah Alan - and all because the UK fucked with the status quo.Alanbrooke said:
thats the problem with Varadkar hes been winding up the green tub thumpers to get votes. I cant respect the man since he has undone a decade of solid work to normalise realations between UK and RoI and all because he wants to win an election.SeanT said:
I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.Alanbrooke said:
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurtsSeanT said:
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.Philip_Thompson said:
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to whf the EU to me.Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on tned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.
It will be ugly.
Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.0 -
its ramping bullshitkinabalu said:
A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.Alanbrooke said:Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?
That is the message I am hearing.0 -
Yes it is a trivial issueSeanT said:
I doubt it will cost anything. It costs nothing to get a visa to Australia which lasts a year. You just do it online beforehand, the same way, these days, you have to fill in passport details to get a plane ticket.HYUFD said:
I think most Leave voters would happily pay 7 Euros once a year for a trip to Spain if it ends free movement which is what most working class Leavers voted Leave forgrabcocque said:
It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.Sean_F said:
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.Philip_Thompson said:
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?Scott_P said:I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857
This is a trivial diversion. There will be 30 seconds extra paperwork to travel between the EU and the UK.
It's all the other shit that is worrying.0 -
Exactly plus imagine a "no deal" instruction. What, none whatsoever, no itty-bitty deals on aviation, medicines, etc? Forbidden by popular acclaim.IanB2 said:
If there is one it'll be deal v remain. There is no point in Deal v No Deal since everyone knows that means Deal and Parliament has the power to vote that through anyway, without the delay, uncertainty and potential market and political turmoil of a referendum.Charles said:
Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimateSeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
But Parliament won’t give that
What bollocks jeez Leavers are thick.0 -
No I have not.TOPPING said:
huh? You have lost thousands on the exchange rate when you buy your straw donkey in torremelinos.RobD said:
As it is valid for three years, you'd have to go to the EU for several hundred years for it to cost thousands!TOPPING said:
Beyond the wit or intellect of Leavers to understand that @ $1.25/€1.10 (today, just wait for a no deal) they could indeed be thousands of pounds worse off.Philip_Thompson said:
Precisely. When remainers were arguing we would be thousands per household worse off and leavers were saying we would be hundreds of millions as a nation better off ... truly this is chickenfeed.Sean_F said:
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.Philip_Thompson said:
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?Scott_P said:I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857
Unless of course as has been mentioned, everyone goes to Clacton where the laws of supply and demand will be voluntarily suspended.
I'm paid in sterling, spend in sterling and inflation in the UK has been low.
I'd have to spend tens of thousands abroad to have lost thousands on the exchange rate. I don't.0 -
It's not at all. It's the talk of the island right now.Alanbrooke said:
its ramping bullshitkinabalu said:
A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.Alanbrooke said:Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?
That is the message I am hearing.0 -
Most Leave voters don't want free migration. It's why Vote Leave made such a big issue of it. It's supported by left wing Europhiles.grabcocque said:
Again, symbolism, not cost.Sean_F said:
Hardly, It's trivial.grabcocque said:
It's not about the cost, it's about the symbolism. It will be the first concrete example of what May's obsessive anti-immigrant vindictiveness has cost the UK.Sean_F said:
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.Philip_Thompson said:
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?Scott_P said:I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857
It represents May successfully denuding UK citizens of the rights they've possessed for 40 years to live, love and work in 28 countries.
It's a symbol of the stripping of those rights away from UK citizens, and the pride with which she has done it.
This 7 euro fee is your grovelling to the EU saying "Please let me in; I acknowledge Mrs May has stripped me of my rights".
It's powerfully symbolic, and will stand as a totem that everything May tried to take away from us.
Or at least it would if we were leaving the EU, which we aren't.0 -
Why would it? I think we have been assured that leavers aren't closet fascists.HYUFD said:
No Remain would see a far right party surge, the Deal remains the only compromiseOort said:
Indeed. I prefer the first order because Remain would have a better chance of winning. But May's deal is not going to be an option in any referendum. Say there is (or would be) a 200 Commons majority against it. A hundred MPs who think it's a crock would have to vote to put it to the electorate.HYUFD said:
May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No DealSeanT said:
I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)David_Evershed said:
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
Anyway, his/her idea was:
A two stage referendum
First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No
If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
If there were more sanity, people would shake hands and realise that the option that pisses off fewest rational people least is the status quo, Remain. Spartan if.0 -
Just skip the first question as that has already been asked and go straight to Deal vs No Deal. Deal would win easily.HYUFD said:
May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No DealSeanT said:
I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)David_Evershed said:
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
Anyway, his/her idea was:
A two stage referendum
First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No
If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?0 -
Didn't you vote for Brexit?grabcocque said:
As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.RobD said:
Was it really necessary to post that?grabcocque said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4RobD said:
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.
The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.0 -
It doesn't. But there's a firm commitment from both the Irish and UK government to avoid it.RobD said:
Where in the GFA does it say that there cannot be a customs border?kinabalu said:
A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.Alanbrooke said:Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?
That is the message I am hearing.
The UK government agreed to finding a solution to NI border as part of the timetabling of the A50 negotiations. The EU will not agree to starting trade talks until a legally-binding guarantee of no border between the Republic and Northern Ireland is in force.0 -
IIUC the reason the US and the EU do it is to fund the bureaucratic program that's collecting your data, and theoretically doing some kind of security thing with it. If TMay is sticking around for a bit it feels quite hard to imagine her missing an opportunity like this for a bigger surveillance program funded by foreigners, although she'll wait for a terrorist attack to hang it on.SeanT said:
I doubt it will cost anything. It costs nothing to get a visa to Australia which lasts a year. You just do it online beforehand, the same way, these days, you have to fill in passport details to get a plane ticket.0 -
Varadkar would be the leader of his country in a crisis imposed by the traditional oppressor.Xenon said:
One positive aspect of no deal chaos would be seeing that pathetic little turd panic.Alanbrooke said:
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurtsSeanT said:
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.Philip_Thompson said:
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.
It will be ugly.
Whoever presses the button here will be the architect of our misfortunes.0 -
You can't really blame anyone in Europe, particularly the Irish, from enjoying a little schadenfreude at the unholy mess we have landed ourselves in.SeanT said:
I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.Alanbrooke said:
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurtsSeanT said:
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU is sincerely prepared for that (rather than expecting us to blink), and what it will do to Ireland etc.Philip_Thompson said:
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
The idea that we will come crawling back in a week begging for a deal, chequebook in hand, as one famous Remainer put it, is nonsense. That's not human nature, nor how ancient nations behave. They hunker down and snarl at The Other, the menace, the Enemy.
It will be ugly.
Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.0 -
Rob you're still slightly missing the point. As @grabby has pointed out to you.RobD said:
Where in the GFA does it say that there cannot be a customs border?kinabalu said:
A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.Alanbrooke said:Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?
That is the message I am hearing.0 -
Sure, but the OP was talking about leaving, then re-applying to join. Presumably it'd be a relatively quick process, but by default we'd have none of the opt-outs we have now.HYUFD said:
If we vote to Remain before Brexit Day amd cancel Article 50 as the ECJ have made clear we can Remain on current terms.
0 -
I know not you. But for people who neither live in a basement nor have a Custom Strike Force Full Control Leather Games Chair, they do.Philip_Thompson said:
No I have not.TOPPING said:
huh? You have lost thousands on the exchange rate when you buy your straw donkey in torremelinos.RobD said:
As it is valid for three years, you'd have to go to the EU for several hundred years for it to cost thousands!TOPPING said:
Beyond the wit or intellect of Leavers to understand that @ $1.25/€1.10 (today, just wait for a no deal) they could indeed be thousands of pounds worse off.Philip_Thompson said:
Precisely. When remainers were arguing we would be thousands per household worse off and leavers were saying we would be hundreds of millions as a nation better off ... truly this is chickenfeed.Sean_F said:
I don't think 7 euros is likely to be a game-changer.Philip_Thompson said:
If Remainers had put that one bus I doubt it would have won any votes. Oh my god the cost of 2 coffees every three years to travel. How will we ever cope?Scott_P said:I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857
Unless of course as has been mentioned, everyone goes to Clacton where the laws of supply and demand will be voluntarily suspended.
I'm paid in sterling, spend in sterling and inflation in the UK has been low.
I'd have to spend tens of thousands abroad to have lost thousands on the exchange rate. I don't.0 -
That will have to go.SeanT said:
Fair enough, But eurovision votes, pre Brexit, suggested otherwise, as did the coordination between Ireland and the UK within the EU. The UK is one reason Ireland's corporate tax regime has survived. We were a shield.HYUFD said:
The Republic of Ireland is not even in the Commonwealth and does not have the Queen as its Head of State and is in the Eurozone, it is now no more a British ally than Belgium. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Caribbean states, the USA, Austria, Italy, Switzerland etc are all closer allies of the UK now than IrelandSeanT said:
I confess Iit gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.Alanbrooke said:
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurtsSeanT said:
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU nace, the Enemy.Philip_Thompson said:
Because beinan blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
It will be ugly.
Once we are gone, France and Germany will say to Dublin, OK we protected you over Brexit, now we want repayment. The price will be Ireland's unusual tax arrangements, Just watch,0 -
You may be right but I still think No Deal will be averted.SeanT said:I tend to agree with you, but parliamentary arithmetic - and Jeremy Corbyn - mean we are headed for No Deal. Brexit means Brexit and it now cannot be stopped, and Brexit means No Deal, and Brexit on March 29
My current 'most likely unlikely' is that Labour will do one of the following:
(i) Do a deal with May. Agree to let the WA through in return for a GE soon after.
(ii) Do a deal with DUP. Form minority govt just for Brexit. Extend art 50, negotiate their BINO deal, perhaps offer that to the public vs remain in a ref, then a GE.0 -
Oh yes. I felt that the UK needed to go through this process of inevitable chaos as a kind of ceremonial blood-letting as we realize the true cost and consequences of something we were told would be cost and consequence free.Sean_F said:
Didn't you vote for Brexit?grabcocque said:
As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.RobD said:
Was it really necessary to post that?grabcocque said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4RobD said:
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.
The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
As the public are now becoming aware of the true horror of the fantasies of UK politicians, I am delighted. Things are playing out just as I hoped and expected they would.0 -
Mr HYUFD,
May's Deal is imperfect but ends free movement and leaves the EU,"
Does it? on what date does this occur without the EU giving permission? And why would they? I can think of at least 39 billion reasons why not?
0 -
0
-
LOL York Hall is priceless. On fight night it's the politest place on earth. Everyone is please, thank you, I'm sorrying because no one knows how tasty anyone else is or whether they've come mob handed. A real lesson in mutual deterrent.FrancisUrquhart said:
I do love a good live tear up. Not been for donkeys years, closest I have been in recent years is when my hotel reservation got messed up and I was relocated to a hotel in central Swindon in which from the 10 floor I got a cracking view of the Friday night carnage.TOPPING said:
Speaking of which, and I say this because I think @FrancisUrquhart is a fan, there should be a cracking fight tonight at York Hall - Larry Ekundayo, who lost, with a damaged hand, to Gary Corcoran, who then went on to fight Manny, is defending his IBF Welterweight strap vs. Louis Greene. He (Larry) should go far beyond this defence.AlastairMeeks said:If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.
I'll be there (next PB get together??!) but it's also being live-streamed on BoxNation.0 -
What this says to me is two things:Scott_P said:
1. For all their bluster, the EU are quite worried that, if they announced a figure any higher than this minimal fee, then people about to book holidays to Southern Europe over Christmas would look to destinations beyond the EU borders. It confirms the EU's weakness not their strength, tourism being one contributor to the UK's huge balance of trade deficit with the EU.
2. It is a reminder of the UK's own silence on making similar announcements on how we would operate post Brexit in the absence of a trade agreement, which could potentially bring home to EU countries the threat to their export markets. That gives the game away that the UK is still not seriously planning for that scenario and would rather fold in negotiations than end up there.0 -
Given the abilities on display from our politicians I suspect many will think the more entwined the better. The idea of being a rule taker from the EU has a certain appeal, it limits the ability of the Brits to screw everything up!Xenon said:
So we will be even more entwined in the EU after a vote to leave it completely than if we'd voted to remain.SeanT said:
Actually the EU has said we can rejoin with the same deal we had. Not Cameron's deal. but the status quo before his "renegotiation".dixiedean said:
I really didn't think that through did I? Still it seems to be a la mode these days.Andrew said:
Not to mention we'd need to join the euro, and there would be no more rebate, so that's another £5bn a year. Schengen we might get an opt-out from, who knows.dixiedean said:
Fair enough. Just an idea. Not like we have too many right now.edmundintokyo said:
You'd need an accession agreement to pass through the parliaments, upper houses and sundry other veto points of 27 member states.dixiedean said:Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30?
We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.
Sums it all up doesn't it?0 -
A No to Lisbon pre-ratification wouldn't have meant us leaving the EU, which is why it would have been won by 2:1 if not 3:1, it would have been seen as a risk-free way of saying No to centralisation.JosiasJessop said:
Article 50 would still exist (although of course be of no relevance to us).SeanT said:
Yep, I voted for this. I still think it was the right moral choice. We should be Out. I had under-estimated, however, the complete nightmare that is Article 50 (which, of course, should not and would not exist if we had been given our promised referendum, and then voted down the Lisbon Treaty).rottenborough said:
Hold on. Didn't you vote for all this? Or did I miss something?SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Leaving under A50 without extreme pain is almost impossible. It is definitely impossible if you are led by a stubborn, autistic heifer with the political skills of the Ebola virus. From that first speech setting out her red lines, to the needless triggering of A50, on and on she went, error after error.
Now we are truly screwed.
I do query, however, the assumption that 'no' would have won a referendum on the Lisbon treaty (pre-Brown's signing), or that a 'no' would have automatically have led to us leaving the EU.
A referendum on Lisbon *after* Brown had signed would have been an expensive and meaningless affair.0 -
What an absurd reason to vote for it.grabcocque said:
Oh yes. I felt that the UK needed to go through this process of inevitable chaos as a kind of ceremonial blood-letting as we realize the true cost and consequences of something we were told would be cost and consequence free.Sean_F said:
Didn't you vote for Brexit?grabcocque said:
As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.RobD said:
Was it really necessary to post that?grabcocque said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4RobD said:
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.
The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
As the public are now becoming aware of the true horror of the fantasies of UK politicians, I am delighted. Things are playing out just as I hoped and expected they would.0 -
There’s a reason that I can’t talk aboutdaodao said:
Supporting anarchy is utterly irresponsible. The sooner Macron gets France back under full control, the better for the whole of Europe and the EU.Charles said:
Good. They are being very helpful at the momentAlanbrooke said:
increasingly looking like the gilets jaunes are back on the streets tomorrow
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2018/12/14/01016-20181214ARTFIG00072-gilets-jaunes-acte-v-la-prefecture-de-police-se-prepare-au-scenario-le-plus-difficile.php0 -
The Worst is rarely the Best.grabcocque said:
Oh yes. I felt that the UK needed to go through this process of inevitable chaos as a kind of ceremonial blood-letting as we realize the true cost and consequences of something we were told would be cost and consequence free.Sean_F said:
Didn't you vote for Brexit?grabcocque said:
As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.RobD said:
Was it really necessary to post that?grabcocque said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4RobD said:
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.
The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
As the public are now becoming aware of the true horror of the fantasies of UK politicians, I am delighted. Things are playing out just as I hoped and expected they would.0 -
she's in such a weak position, I'd want the Lib Dems to push for PR for local elections and legalisation of cannabis as part of the deal. To be legislated for first / concurrently.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Maybe that's her way out.grabcocque said:
If the DUP VONC May, she'll go to the Lib Dems.DecrepitJohnL said:
The DUP is right this time, isn't it?Oort said:
That observation would be better applied to the DUP. Have any senior Tories got the guts to stand up to them?FrancisUrquhart said:
To use a Christmas theme, we want all parties and factions in the British parliament to feel the bleak midwinter,” said a senior EU source.Scott_P said:
With friends like these...
Driving May into the arms of Vince is not on the DUP battleplan.
DUP ditch her.
The LDs are the only bidder, they want a second referendum.
May says to the Tories, it's a second referendum or Corbyn (oh and I will step down).
If T May needs to call a referendum and beg the Lib Dems, she'll be so needy there will be a hell of a price to pay.0 -
Which is why it is pointless and won't happen. Your first is an argument that can be played against having a vote at all, the counter to which is that it would be the first vote on actual terms. If however there is a second vote it wont feature no deal, for reasons that have been done to death.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just skip the first question as that has already been asked and go straight to Deal vs No Deal. Deal would win easily.HYUFD said:
May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No DealSeanT said:
I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)David_Evershed said:
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
Anyway, his/her idea was:
A two stage referendum
First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No
If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?0 -
Given today’s actions it is more evidence that not only will they obviously and rightly look to protect their own interests, but are hell bent on making the uk pay for wanting to leave. There is no mutually beneficial thinking going on.CD13 said:Mr HYUFD,
May's Deal is imperfect but ends free movement and leaves the EU,"
Does it? on what date does this occur without the EU giving permission? And why would they? I can think of at least 39 billion reasons why not?0 -
Taking back control.Tissue_Price said:0 -
I said "rational" people. The far right didn't put up much of a showing on last Sunday's demonstration and newspapers can if necessary be nationalised or shut down. It's about time for Lord Pearson and the far right to be taken on and given a damned hard thrashing.HYUFD said:
No Remain would see a far right party surge, the Deal remains the only compromiseOort said:
Indeed. I prefer the first order because Remain would have a better chance of winning. But May's deal is not going to be an option in any referendum. Say there is (or would be) a 200 Commons majority against it. A hundred MPs who think it's a crock would have to vote to put it to the electorate.HYUFD said:
May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No DealSeanT said:
I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)David_Evershed said:
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
Anyway, his/her idea was:
A two stage referendum
First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No
If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
If there were more sanity, people would shake hands and realise that the option that pisses off fewest rational people least is the status quo, Remain. Spartan if.0 -
2 assumes we have any idea or clue in what we are doing. Watching TMay this week it should be obvious that we haven't planned or thought of anything we simply react to this minute's crisis.....Wulfrun_Phil said:
What this says to me is two things:Scott_P said:
1. For all their bluster, the EU are quite worried that, if they announced a figure any higher than this minimal fee, then people about to book holidays to Southern Europe over Christmas would look to destinations beyond the EU borders. It confirms the EU's weakness not their strength, tourism being one contributor to the UK's huge balance of trade deficit with the EU.
2. It is a reminder of the UK's own silence on making similar announcements on how we would operate post Brexit in the absence of a trade agreement, which could potentially bring home to EU countries the threat to their export markets. That gives the game away that the UK is still not seriously planning for that scenario and would rather fold in negotiations than end up there.0 -
After last night, surely you can't keep up the pretence that the "backstop" isn't supposed to be permanent?Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.0 -
I know, right? Chaos is a great leveller.RobD said:
What an absurd reason to vote for it.grabcocque said:
Oh yes. I felt that the UK needed to go through this process of inevitable chaos as a kind of ceremonial blood-letting as we realize the true cost and consequences of something we were told would be cost and consequence free.Sean_F said:
Didn't you vote for Brexit?grabcocque said:
As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.RobD said:
Was it really necessary to post that?grabcocque said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4RobD said:
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.
The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
As the public are now becoming aware of the true horror of the fantasies of UK politicians, I am delighted. Things are playing out just as I hoped and expected they would.0 -
No medicine? No flights? No cooperation on any matter whatsoever, however trivial, or however vital?TOPPING said:
Exactly plus imagine a "no deal" instruction. What, none whatsoever, no itty-bitty deals on aviation, medicines, etc? Forbidden by popular acclaim.IanB2 said:
If there is one it'll be deal v remain. There is no point in Deal v No Deal since everyone knows that means Deal and Parliament has the power to vote that through anyway, without the delay, uncertainty and potential market and political turmoil of a referendum.Charles said:
Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimateSeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
But Parliament won’t give that
What bollocks jeez Leavers are thick.
Will of the people, intit?
That is why No Deal cannot be on a ballot. Any PM doing so would be utterly irresponsible to suggest it.
So not ruled out then.0 -
He didn't. He's a bullshitting arsehole of the first order.RobD said:
What an absurd reason to vote for it.grabcocque said:
Oh yes. I felt that the UK needed to go through this process of inevitable chaos as a kind of ceremonial blood-letting as we realize the true cost and consequences of something we were told would be cost and consequence free.Sean_F said:
Didn't you vote for Brexit?grabcocque said:
As a video I think it neatly sums up my attitude to Brexiteers.RobD said:
Was it really necessary to post that?grabcocque said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5d42w4ZcY4RobD said:
UK citizens did that themselves when they voted to leave.
The UK has learned the hard way that sometimes actions have consequences.
As the public are now becoming aware of the true horror of the fantasies of UK politicians, I am delighted. Things are playing out just as I hoped and expected they would.0 -
L'état c'est toi, Charles?Charles said:
There’s a reason that I can’t talk aboutdaodao said:
Supporting anarchy is utterly irresponsible. The sooner Macron gets France back under full control, the better for the whole of Europe and the EU.Charles said:
Good. They are being very helpful at the momentAlanbrooke said:
increasingly looking like the gilets jaunes are back on the streets tomorrow
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2018/12/14/01016-20181214ARTFIG00072-gilets-jaunes-acte-v-la-prefecture-de-police-se-prepare-au-scenario-le-plus-difficile.php0 -
I cannot prove it to you, of course. But I most certainly did vote to leave, in the sure and certain hope it would be chaos.Norm said:
He didn't. He's a bullshitting arsehole of the first order.RobD said:
What an absurd reason to vote for it.
Don't make me explain the whole Vorlon/Shadow thing again.0 -
Labour split on its wayTheScreamingEagles said:
Taking back control.Tissue_Price said:0 -
The idiot drunks who tried to start fights after mcgregor vs khahid fight found that out the painful way. Going to a big MMA event where a significant percentage of the audience train in MMA and then going wildly swinging after 10 pints is as stupid as trying to get any sense out of junker after lunchtime.TOPPING said:
LOL York Hall is priceless. On fight night it's the politest place on earth. Everyone is please, thank you, I'm sorrying because no one knows how tasty anyone else is or whether they've come mob handed. A real lesson in mutual deterrent.FrancisUrquhart said:
I do love a good live tear up. Not been for donkeys years, closest I have been in recent years is when my hotel reservation got messed up and I was relocated to a hotel in central Swindon in which from the 10 floor I got a cracking view of the Friday night carnage.TOPPING said:
Speaking of which, and I say this because I think @FrancisUrquhart is a fan, there should be a cracking fight tonight at York Hall - Larry Ekundayo, who lost, with a damaged hand, to Gary Corcoran, who then went on to fight Manny, is defending his IBF Welterweight strap vs. Louis Greene. He (Larry) should go far beyond this defence.AlastairMeeks said:If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.
I'll be there (next PB get together??!) but it's also being live-streamed on BoxNation.0 -
LOL indeed!dixiedean said:
No medicine? No flights? No cooperation on any matter whatsoever, however trivial, or however vital?TOPPING said:
Exactly plus imagine a "no deal" instruction. What, none whatsoever, no itty-bitty deals on aviation, medicines, etc? Forbidden by popular acclaim.IanB2 said:
If there is one it'll be deal v remain. There is no point in Deal v No Deal since everyone knows that means Deal and Parliament has the power to vote that through anyway, without the delay, uncertainty and potential market and political turmoil of a referendum.Charles said:
Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimateSeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
But Parliament won’t give that
What bollocks jeez Leavers are thick.
Will of the people, intit?
That is why No Deal cannot be on a ballot. Any PM doing so would be utterly irresponsible to suggest it.
So not ruled out then.
But seriously, folks, it can't be on there it's just fantasy.0 -
I suspect that Charles used to be the leader of that group of men in the smoked-filled room in the X-files. He probably has Assistant Director Skinner advising Macron whilst Mulder and Scully infiltrate Calais looking for illegal aliens.Charles said:
There’s a reason that I can’t talk aboutdaodao said:
Supporting anarchy is utterly irresponsible. The sooner Macron gets France back under full control, the better for the whole of Europe and the EU.Charles said:
Good. They are being very helpful at the momentAlanbrooke said:
increasingly looking like the gilets jaunes are back on the streets tomorrow
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2018/12/14/01016-20181214ARTFIG00072-gilets-jaunes-acte-v-la-prefecture-de-police-se-prepare-au-scenario-le-plus-difficile.php0 -
Where will these troubles come from? Do you really think SF would begin killing again? What would they gain?
They have two separate aims. One part of SF has a general Marxist agenda, and the other has a purely nationalistic aim - for a unified Ireland.0 -
lol bloodshed ? Where ? I was on the island a fortnight ago - nothing. Really its crazy ramping ike this which more likely to bring out the guns than just letting the sleeping dogs lie.TOPPING said:
It's not at all. It's the talk of the island right now.Alanbrooke said:
its ramping bullshitkinabalu said:
A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.Alanbrooke said:Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?
That is the message I am hearing.0 -
Chaos rarely turns out well for those who hope to benefit from it.grabcocque said:
I cannot prove it to you, of course. But I most certainly did vote to leave, in the sure and certain hope it would be chaos.Norm said:
He didn't. He's a bullshitting arsehole of the first order.RobD said:
What an absurd reason to vote for it.
Don't make me explain the whole Vorlon/Shadow thing again.0 -
I look forward to seeing you at the vanguard of JRM's tank brigade as it rolls into Dublin.SeanT said:
No, I agree. But they are pushing it too far. And creating an enemy.0 -
No they weren't, and no we didn't.Scott_P said:
They were our friends.FrancisUrquhart said:To use a Christmas theme, we want all parties and factions in the British parliament to feel the bleak midwinter,” said a senior EU source.
With friends like these...
We told them fuck off.0 -
I've been to half those countries, including Australia, but never been to Ireland. Probably the same for many Brits.HYUFD said:
The Republic of Ireland is not even in the Commonwealth and does not have the Queen as its Head of State and is in the Eurozone, it is now no more a British ally than Belgium. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Caribbean states, the USA, Austria, Italy, Switzerland etc are all closer allies of the UK now than IrelandSeanT said:
I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ridicules Brexit and says he's sad for our country, meanwhile he vigorously supported Scottish independence, which would have bankrupted the Scots and ejected them from the UK AND the EU. Meanwhile he earns squillions in Britain from the BBC.Alanbrooke said:
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurtsSeanT said:
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU nace, the Enemy.Philip_Thompson said:
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
It will be ugly.
Some Irish people have a deep genetic hatred of Britain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.0 -
I nearly missed a flight trying to get the ESTA thing done on my phone in the airport using their atrocious government website. If I'd known about it in advance it wouldn't have been hard but that particular "fuck you from america" experience is definitely an extra reason I try to avoid going there.rpjs said:
Costs $14 for Brits to get a two-year ESTA to the US and it doesn’t stop ‘em from coming to seesteve_garner said:
You might also wonder how many Brits will say ok, we'll take our hols at home instead.Scott_P said:I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857
the Mouse.
6 euros is even dumber than $17, because so even more of the revenue from the fee gets pissed away on collecting it, especially if you count the cost of the time, hassle and cognitive load you put on the traveller. If they really need to squeeze revenue out of people arriving they'd be much better sticking a bit extra on the airline tax or whatever that they're already collecting.0 -
Ironic really that Brexit has put the Irish in a position to bully the British, after centuries of the boot being on the other foot.OllyT said:
You can't really blame anyone in Europe, particularly the Irish, from enjoying a little schadenfreude at the unholy mess we have landed ourselves in.0 -
Harriet Baldwin meets Ethiopian community leaders to try and develop trading links with Ethiopia.
If we go to No Deal maybe they can do Live Aid 2 from Addis Ababa for us as we near starvation and face medicine shortages?
https://mobile.twitter.com/hbaldwin/status/10732864573249167360 -
I don't expect to gain personally. I genuinely think stripping away forty years of bullshit and exposing the awful truth behind Brexiteer delusions and how the EU would really treat as us a third country has been beneficial. Enlightening, even.Sean_F said:
Chaos rarely turns out well for those who hope to benefit from it.grabcocque said:
I cannot prove it to you, of course. But I most certainly did vote to leave, in the sure and certain hope it would be chaos.Norm said:
He didn't. He's a bullshitting arsehole of the first order.RobD said:
What an absurd reason to vote for it.
Don't make me explain the whole Vorlon/Shadow thing again.
We are a wiser nation now than we were on referendum day, and I played my part.
If there is a second referendum, and no deal is an option, I shall vote for that.0 -
They are claiming it is because of the migrant crisis...I’m not sure many of the people illegally smuggled in on boats will be filling it somehow...edmundintokyo said:
I nearly missed a flight trying to get the ESTA thing done on my phone in the airport using their atrocious government website. If I'd known about it in advance it wouldn't have been hard but that particular "fuck you from america" experience is definitely an extra reason I try to avoid going there.rpjs said:
Costs $14 for Brits to get a two-year ESTA to the US and it doesn’t stop ‘em from coming to seesteve_garner said:
You might also wonder how many Brits will say ok, we'll take our hols at home instead.Scott_P said:I wonder how many would have voted remain if this had been on the side of the bus?
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1073546103306489857
the Mouse.
6 euros is even dumber than $17, because so even more of the revenue from the fee gets pissed away on collecting it, especially if you count the cost of the time, hassle and cognitive load you put on the traveller. If they really need to squeeze revenue out of people arriving they'd be much better sticking a bit extra on the airline tax or whatever that they're already collecting.0 -
Eh? You think the EU want to lock us into the Single market and Customs Union, with 100% of the economic advantages of membership, without us paying a bean for it and without us having to commit to freedom of movement?Donny43 said:
After last night, surely you can't keep up the pretence that the "backstop" isn't supposed to be permanent?Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.
Of all the many mad ideas floating round, that is one of the very maddest.0 -
haha not quite that mad...FrancisUrquhart said:
The idiot drunks who tried to start fights after mcgregor vs khahid fight found that out the painful way. Going to a big MMA event where a significant percentage of the audience train in MMA and then going wildly swinging after 10 pints is as stupid as trying to get any sense out of junker after lunchtime.TOPPING said:
LOL York Hall is priceless. On fight night it's the politest place on earth. Everyone is please, thank you, I'm sorrying because no one knows how tasty anyone else is or whether they've come mob handed. A real lesson in mutual deterrent.FrancisUrquhart said:
I do love a good live tear up. Not been for donkeys years, closest I have been in recent years is when my hotel reservation got messed up and I was relocated to a hotel in central Swindon in which from the 10 floor I got a cracking view of the Friday night carnage.TOPPING said:
Speaking of which, and I say this because I think @FrancisUrquhart is a fan, there should be a cracking fight tonight at York Hall - Larry Ekundayo, who lost, with a damaged hand, to Gary Corcoran, who then went on to fight Manny, is defending his IBF Welterweight strap vs. Louis Greene. He (Larry) should go far beyond this defence.AlastairMeeks said:If people think that Theresa May looks angry with Jean-Claude Juncker they have obviously been to much lower octane meetings than I have. That looks like a normal lively discussion between sparring partners to me.
I'll be there (next PB get together??!) but it's also being live-streamed on BoxNation.0 -
I have been to the Republic once, beautiful countryside but I remember I visited the Michael Collins assassination site and a local garage and not much pro British thereKentRising said:
I've been to half those countries, including Australia, but never been to Ireland. Probably the same for many Brits.HYUFD said:
The Republic of Ireland is not even in the Commonwealth and does not have the Queen as its Head of State and is in the Eurozone, it is now no more a British ally than Belgium. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Caribbean states, the USA, Austria, Italy, Switzerland etc are all closer allies of the UK now than IrelandSeanT said:
I confess I have developed a personal loathing for some Irish people during the debacle. One is the smug Irish prime minister. Another is "comic" Dara O'Brian, who ritain, which has been revealed of late. I guess it is understandable historically, but it gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.Alanbrooke said:
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurtsSeanT said:
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU nace, the Enemy.Philip_Thompson said:
Because being trapped within an interminable backstop to which we have no unilateral exit is what is on the table. That is not what we voted for. It is not Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
The fact that the EU can not find a single decent reason on their own right for us to be in the market so are resorting to sectarian blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.
It will be ugly.0 -
Increasingly I think Europe is facing economic disaster. ECB QE is stopping. Italy is in very serious trouble (look at bond yields). A recession is looming.
Add in a no-deal Brexit and kaboom!
Perhaps they should throw May a bone for their own self interest.
0 -
"A festive download to share with your loved one" :-)
Not if you want to keep them... OGH being a bit of a wag there.0 -
Varadkar has problems with his Fine Gael supporters. One of my Irish brother-in-laws always vote FG but smiles indulgently when we discuss Leo. It's always a good vote-winner to tease the UK.0
-
https://belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/1100-bombs-and-shootings-in-10-years-the-figures-that-prove-terrorism-hasnt-gone-away-34672253.htmlAlanbrooke said:
lol bloodshed ? Where ? I was on the island a fortnight ago - nothing. Really its crazy ramping ike this which more likely to bring out the guns than just letting the sleeping dogs lie.TOPPING said:
It's not at all. It's the talk of the island right now.Alanbrooke said:
its ramping bullshitkinabalu said:
A hard border in Ireland undermines the GFA and threatens a return of The Troubles.Alanbrooke said:Where is this bloodshed in Ireland coming from ?
That is the message I am hearing.
Alan you've been away a while. This shit never stopped.0 -
Doesn't seem to be confirmed anywhere.Tissue_Price said:0 -
Basic misunderstanding of the concept.TOPPING said:
LOL indeed!dixiedean said:
No medicine? No flights? No cooperation on any matter whatsoever, however trivial, or however vital?TOPPING said:
Exactly plus imagine a "no deal" instruction. What, none whatsoever, no itty-bitty deals on aviation, medicines, etc? Forbidden by popular acclaim.IanB2 said:
If there is one it'll be deal v remain. There is no point in Deal v No Deal since everyone knows that means Deal and Parliament has the power to vote that through anyway, without the delay, uncertainty and potential market and political turmoil of a referendum.Charles said:
Deal vs No deal (which I think you are suggesting) would be legitimateSeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
But Parliament won’t give that
What bollocks jeez Leavers are thick.
Will of the people, intit?
That is why No Deal cannot be on a ballot. Any PM doing so would be utterly irresponsible to suggest it.
So not ruled out then.
But seriously, folks, it can't be on there it's just fantasy.0 -
As soon as we leave the EU and single market but fanatics like you will end up with BINO or EUref2 and Remain soon enough and full free movement backCD13 said:Mr HYUFD,
May's Deal is imperfect but ends free movement and leaves the EU,"
Does it? on what date does this occur without the EU giving permission? And why would they? I can think of at least 39 billion reasons why not?0 -
Stick one customs post on the Buncrana Road and all your questions will be answered.CD13 said:Where will these troubles come from? Do you really think SF would begin killing again? What would they gain?
They have two separate aims. One part of SF has a general Marxist agenda, and the other has a purely nationalistic aim - for a unified Ireland.0 -
You don't think the fact that they made a point of actually *removing* May's text about the backstop being undesirable for the Union, and replaced it with text actually *affirming* the backstop being vital for the integrity of the single market might signify... something?Richard_Nabavi said:
Eh? You think the EU want to lock us into the Single market and Customs Union, with 100% of the economic advantages of membership, without us paying a bean for it and without us having to commit to freedom of movement?
Of all the many mad ideas floating round, that is one of the very maddest.
The EU hates the backstop so much they've used an EUCO communique to actually re-affirm their commitment to it, in direct contravention of UK demands.
That's an odd way of showing how much they hate it.
0 -
UKIP or Farage 2 wpjld be on 20 to 30% within a yearDura_Ace said:
Why would it? I think we have been assured that leavers aren't closet fascists.HYUFD said:
No Remain would see a far right party surge, the Deal remains the only compromiseOort said:
Indeed. I prefer the first order because Remain would have a better chance of winning. But May's deal is not going to be an option in any referendum. Say there is (or would be) a 200 Commons majority against it. A hundred MPs who think it's a crock would have to vote to put it to the electorate.HYUFD said:
May's Deal has a better chance of winning if the first question is do you still want to Leave the EU or to Remain and if Yes, second stage Leave with May's Deal or No DealSeanT said:
I would go for Nemtykhnat's excellent idea (BTW can he or she please get a more spellable name? Ta)David_Evershed said:
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
Anyway, his/her idea was:
A two stage referendum
First question: do you support TMay's deal - Yes or No
If No, second stage: do you want to Remain, or leave with No Deal?
If there were more sanity, people would shake hands and realise that the option that pisses off fewest rational people least is the status quo, Remain. Spartan if.0 -
They need us there to fund the Italian and German bank bailouts that are coming.rottenborough said:Increasingly I think Europe is facing economic disaster. ECB QE is stopping. Italy is in very serious trouble (look at bond yields). A recession is looming.
Add in a no-deal Brexit and kaboom!
Perhaps they should throw May a bone for their own self interest.
That will go down a treat here if we remain.0 -
Still seems to me like the attitude of German Communists in the early thirties.grabcocque said:
I don't expect to gain personally. I genuinely think stripping away forty years of bullshit and exposing the awful truth behind Brexiteer delusions and how the EU would really treat as us a third country has been beneficial. Enlightening, even.Sean_F said:
Chaos rarely turns out well for those who hope to benefit from it.grabcocque said:
I cannot prove it to you, of course. But I most certainly did vote to leave, in the sure and certain hope it would be chaos.Norm said:
He didn't. He's a bullshitting arsehole of the first order.RobD said:
What an absurd reason to vote for it.
Don't make me explain the whole Vorlon/Shadow thing again.
We are a wiser nation now than we were on referendum day, and I played my part.
If there is a second referendum, and no deal is an option, I shall vote for that.
If you think EU membership is good for the UK, you should vote for it. If you don't, you should vote against.0 -
We get more Eurovision votes now from Malta than Ireland. Ireland will likely try and deal with Juncker to get a guarantee over its tax position as Luxembourg also has much lower tax than elsewhere in the EUSeanT said:
Fair enough, But eurovision votes, pre Brexit, suggested otherwise, as did the coordination between Ireland and the UK within the EU. The UK is one reason Ireland's corporate tax regime has survived. We were a shield.HYUFD said:
The Republic of Ireland is not even in the Commonwealth and does not have the Queen as its Head of State and is in the Eurozone, it is now no more a British ally than Belgium. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Caribbean states, the USA, Austria, Italy, Switzerland etc are all closer allies of the UK now than IrelandSeanT said:
I confess Iit gives the lie to the idea they are now our friends.Alanbrooke said:
really we should fuck Vardkar over till it hurtsSeanT said:
Well, we are now clearly headed for No Deal so we are about to see if the EU nace, the Enemy.Philip_Thompson said:
Because beinan blackmail shows the weakness of the EU to me.Richard_Nabavi said:
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exaceir minds when faced with Brexit.
It will be ugly.
Once we are gone, France and Germany will say to Dublin, OK we protected you over Brexit, now we want repayment. The price will be Ireland's unusual tax arrangements, Just watch,0 -
Other thing about ESTA was that the airline staff had a special bit of paper explaining how to get to the right website for it, while avoiding all the scams. That tells you how often people end up at a fake site. Obviously anything that involves a confusing government program and your credit card is a great opportunity for scammers, who will buy ads for all the relevant keywords and make a nice, usable site that's easier to get to than the government's terrible one.
And even if you get the right website, it'll just be a matter of time until the government leaks your credit card number.0
This discussion has been closed.