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As Yanis Varoufakis points out, the EU are masters of fudge. If they genuinely believed that a fudge would get May over the line, they'd give her whatever she wanted.
But they don't believe that. They rightly believe she cannot pass her deal. There is a stench of political death hanging around her, and they can all smell it. They simply will not go out on a limb for her.0 -
When can we expect another YouTube video good sir?rcs1000 said:
I'm not talking about whats right and whats wrong, but on what is politically possible.Philip_Thompson said:Because it's been such a disaster in New Zealand?
FFS its 2018. Why do people still argue tariffs work?
Conservative MPs, a great number of whom are from rural constituencies, are not going to vote to eliminate tariffs on the imports of agricultural produce from places with much lower costs of production. (And New Zealand land costs are perhaps 10% of that of the UK, so that would include NZ.)0 -
Remain heading towards 60% on the latest YouGov. I remember when PBers said once polling reached 60% the game will change. Not there yet. But not far off.0
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Easier money elsewhere has hollowed out our political classes. Nothing is going to fix that in a world with Social Media and 24 hour news - you have to be insane to do it for any money let alone the little you get paid.Norm said:
This is actually one of my reasons for leaving. Being in the EU has hollowed out our political class. Signing off directives is easier than having to think for yourself.Pulpstar said:Last night provided a very strong argument for remaining. Our politicians are simply not up to the job of negotiating on the world stage.
I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
Heck I work from home and rarely do anything and earn more than an MP does...0 -
This wouldnever have happened before we had the 1832 Reform Act.Richard_Nabavi said:Give women the vote, and look where we are now!
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If we set standards, who will enforce them and where? And if our standards are different from Europe's (or anyone else's) then exports will also need to be inspected.geoffw said:
Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.rcs1000 said:
It's not about a physical border: it's about the explicit choice not to collect tariffs from a particular country.Xenon said:
Is there any example of the WTO insisting on a hard border even if it would cause political upheaval and possibly bloodshed?TheScreamingEagles said:
If only it was that simple.John_M said:
We must treat every country that shares a land border with us equally and fairly.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Xenon said:
Is there any truth in this?GIN1138 said:
I thought WTO had said exceptions can be made when the political situation is particularly "delicate" like with NI and ROI?Foxy said:
Have they? On the radio last night they were saying that they (and we) would be obliged to under WTO rules.GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
We could choose not to enforce a hard border but another nation could bring a complaint which could force a hard border.
“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.
“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136?mode=amp
Given how many nations are looking to use the WTO to get a better deal from the UK a successful complaint is inevitable.
I am really dubious that this would ever happen.
The remedy the WTO would insist on would not be a border in Northern Ireland, but that the Uruguayan meat exporter was allowed to send their produce to the UK tariff free.
Which, by the way, means that the Professor Minford policy of "zero tariffs" would be a sensible way forward, except that it would be a disaster for rural seats in the rest of the UK.0 -
I don't even think it's that. EUCO is a political body, not a legal one. The Commons doesn't want fudge, they want a legal undertaking. May is walking into a fishmongers and asking for a cabbage.grabcocque said:As Yanis Varoufakis points out, the EU are masters of fudge. If they genuinely believed that a fudge would get May over the line, they'd give her whatever she wanted.
But they don't believe that. They rightly believe she cannot pass her deal. There is a stench of political death hanging around her, and they can all smell it. They simply will not go out on a limb for her.0 -
The risk is that the party picks the leader and Boris would have likely made the short list resulting in an ERG fan being leader...Philip_Thompson said:
I don't understand why the party kept her. No need to replace her with an ERGer. Someone sane in cabinet like Javid, Hunt or Gove could do the job.DanSmith said:Looks like May's relationship with the main players in Europe has completely broken, needs to go.
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Owen Jones is backing a second referendum now too.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/labour-prepare-second-referendum-peoples-vote0 -
I had not thought of it like this, but it is true, isn't it?
https://twitter.com/tony_nog/status/10735344713858293770 -
Whereas May is deadweight dragging us there.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because there was a risk of an ERGer succeeding her.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't understand why the party kept her. No need to replace her with an ERGer. Someone sane in cabinet like Javid, Hunt or Gove could do the job.DanSmith said:Looks like May's relationship with the main players in Europe has completely broken, needs to go.
As we’ve seen the ERG aren’t interested in compromise and welcome No Deal.
The ERG have always said they are open to a deal but are ok with no deal. One of them in charge would, Nixon to China like, help get a deal over the line. If one of them takes over, gets the civil service in their ear, reaches a deal then that would be easier to ratify.0 -
There are almost no agricultural products - whether milk, or wheat, or beef - where UK farmers are competitive with world prices. Our land is too expensive. Our farms are too small.geoffw said:Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.
Look, I think we coddle our farmers, and it's just an industry like any other. We would be much better off being realistic, and saying "compete on the world stage, and let consumers decide if they want organic or GMO or not". But that's not going to fly with Conservative MPs in rural seats.0 -
They are not blocking such a deal. Just the small matter of the UK signing the WA on the dotted line first.Xenon said:
This would give the EU the incentive to make a free trade deal with us. It's them blocking the deal and not us.TheScreamingEagles said:
But then someone like Argentina kicks up a fuss and wins their complaint.Philip_Thompson said:
And the UK tariff free exports to the EU. Simples. Problem solved.rcs1000 said:
The WTO would not insist on a hard border in Northern Ireland, they would say that the the French farmer should be allowed to export to the UK under the same terms as an Irish one. Effectively, the EU would get tariff free exports to the UK.Xenon said:
France or Denmark are not going to insist on a hard border in Ireland. Neither are Norway.TheWhiteRabbit said:
If I'm a French milkXenon said:
Is there any example of the WTO insisting on a hard border even if it would cause political upheaval and possibly bloodshed?TheScreamingEagles said:
If only it was that simple.John_M said:
We must treat every country that shares a land border with us equally and fairly.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Xenon said:
Is there any truth in this?GIN1138 said:Foxy said:GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
We could choose not to enforce a hard border but another nation could bring a complaint which could force a hard border.
“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.
“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136?mode=amp
Given how many nations are looking to use the WTO to get a better deal from the UK a successful complaint is inevitable.
I am really dubious that this would ever happen.
Do people really believe that they will?
They have already been making noises.
A hard border is not going to happen.
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If Boris was in charge he would reach a deal and he would back it because he reached it.eek said:
The risk is that the party picks the leader and Boris would have likely made the short list resulting in an ERG fan being leader...Philip_Thompson said:
I don't understand why the party kept her. No need to replace her with an ERGer. Someone sane in cabinet like Javid, Hunt or Gove could do the job.DanSmith said:Looks like May's relationship with the main players in Europe has completely broken, needs to go.
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Owen Jones is a very useful barometer for the thinking of the Labour leadership. He's basically BFFs with McDonnell and Seumas Milne.williamglenn said:Owen Jones is backing a second referendum now too.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/labour-prepare-second-referendum-peoples-vote0 -
If we set standards, who will enforce them and where? And if our standards are different from Europe's (or anyone else's) then exports will also need to be inspected.DecrepitJohnL said:
Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.
No we could agree to the principle of mutual recognition in a trade deal.0 -
Well then the argument should be that we can't leave on WTO terms because it would mean cheaper food for everyone and British famers will suffer and not scaremongering about a hard border.rcs1000 said:
There are almost no agricultural products - whether milk, or wheat, or beef - where UK farmers are competitive with world prices. Our land is too expensive. Our farms are too small.geoffw said:Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.
Look, I think we coddle our farmers, and it's just an industry like any other. We would be much better off being realistic, and saying "compete on the world stage, and let consumers decide if they want organic or GMO or not". But that's not going to fly with Conservative MPs in rural seats.
The hard border is a complete red herring put about by people desperate to stay in the EU.0 -
EUCO communiques are legal documents. They are multilateral undertakings made by national leaders, that establish a policy direction for the Union.John_M said:
I don't even think it's that. EUCO is a political body, not a legal one. The Commons doesn't want fudge, they want a legal undertaking. May is walking into a fishmongers and asking for a cabbage.grabcocque said:As Yanis Varoufakis points out, the EU are masters of fudge. If they genuinely believed that a fudge would get May over the line, they'd give her whatever she wanted.
But they don't believe that. They rightly believe she cannot pass her deal. There is a stench of political death hanging around her, and they can all smell it. They simply will not go out on a limb for her.
They could be described as "legally binding" if you squint your brain a bit.
Sadly, in this case, the communique has reaffirmed the backstop, which is the opposite of what May was asking for.0 -
Because she won her vote of confidence. They are never going to give an iota more to May.grabcocque said:
EUCO communiques are legal documents. They are multilateral undertakings made by national leaders, that establish a policy direction for the Union.John_M said:
I don't even think it's that. EUCO is a political body, not a legal one. The Commons doesn't want fudge, they want a legal undertaking. May is walking into a fishmongers and asking for a cabbage.grabcocque said:As Yanis Varoufakis points out, the EU are masters of fudge. If they genuinely believed that a fudge would get May over the line, they'd give her whatever she wanted.
But they don't believe that. They rightly believe she cannot pass her deal. There is a stench of political death hanging around her, and they can all smell it. They simply will not go out on a limb for her.
They could be described as "legally binding" if you squint your brain a bit.
Sadly, in this case, the communique has reaffirmed the backstop, which is the opposite of what May was asking for.0 -
I'm talking about once we've left on WTO no deal. There will be no WA for them to peddle anymore, we would be in a completely different situation.Foxy said:
They are not blocking such a deal. Just the small matter of the UK signing the WA on the dotted line first.Xenon said:
This would give the EU the incentive to make a free trade deal with us. It's them blocking the deal and not us.TheScreamingEagles said:
But then someone like Argentina kicks up a fuss and wins their complaint.Philip_Thompson said:
And the UK tariff free exports to the EU. Simples. Problem solved.rcs1000 said:
The WTO would not insist on a hard border in Northern Ireland, they would say that the the French farmer should be allowed to export to the UK under the same terms as an Irish one. Effectively, the EU would get tariff free exports to the UK.Xenon said:
Do people really believe that they will?TheWhiteRabbit said:
If I'm a French milkXenon said:
I am really dubious that this would ever happen.TheScreamingEagles said:
If only it was that simple.John_M said:
We must treat every country that shares a land border with us equally and fairly.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Xenon said:
Is there any truth in this?GIN1138 said:Foxy said:GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.
“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136?mode=amp
Given how many nations are looking to use the WTO to get a better deal from the UK a successful complaint is inevitable.
They have already been making noises.
A hard border is not going to happen.
Then they would be open to negotiating on an even playing field and any WTO complaints would hasten a deal as it will be in both parties' interests.0 -
increasingly looking like the gilets jaunes are back on the streets tomorrow
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2018/12/14/01016-20181214ARTFIG00072-gilets-jaunes-acte-v-la-prefecture-de-police-se-prepare-au-scenario-le-plus-difficile.php0 -
Here's the WTO director-general from 2005-2013 explaining how going from the Single Market to WTO terms is like going from the Premiership to the 4th division.Xenon said:
Then they would be open to negotiating on an even playing field and any WTO complaints would hasten a deal as it will be in both parties' interests.
https://twitter.com/JezzyB/status/10708017265156259860 -
The French really seem to be enjoying being part of the fallout 76 LARPing club.Alanbrooke said:
increasingly looking like the gilets jaunes are back on the streets tomorrow
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2018/12/14/01016-20181214ARTFIG00072-gilets-jaunes-acte-v-la-prefecture-de-police-se-prepare-au-scenario-le-plus-difficile.php0 -
Which is why they are desperately trying to trap us now. The alternative to the backstop is giving us what we want. Oh the horrors!Xenon said:
I'm talking about once we've left on WTO no deal. There will be no WA for them to peddle anymore, we would be in a completely different situation.
Then they would be open to negotiating on an even playing field and any WTO complaints would hasten a deal as it will be in both parties' interests.0 -
It is pethaps at least worth a try.kle4 said:
Whatever the legitimate grievances may be a lot of people seem to believe even now that just 'standing up' gets new facts.AlastairMeeks said:
Glad to be of service:grabcocque said:I think we need to hear from the DUP today.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/10735260653463019520 -
The WTO is just an admin office. It can't call in a UN peacekeeping force. We can have whatever border we wish.Xenon said:
Is there any example of the WTO insisting on a hard border even if it would cause political upheaval and possibly bloodshed?TheScreamingEagles said:
If only it was that simple.John_M said:
We must treat every country that shares a land border with us equally and fairly.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Xenon said:
Is there any truth in this?GIN1138 said:
I thought WTO had said exceptions can be made when the political situation is particularly "delicate" like with NI and ROI?Foxy said:
Have they? On the radio last night they were saying that they (and we) would be obliged to under WTO rules.GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
We could choose not to enforce a hard border but another nation could bring a complaint which could force a hard border.
“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.
“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136?mode=amp
Given how many nations are looking to use the WTO to get a better deal from the UK a successful complaint is inevitable.
I am really dubious that this would ever happen.
The trouble is that if the UK diverges from the EU in its regulations then a hard border becomes necessary. It the UK doesn't diverge, then what exactly was the point of this whole Brexit business?0 -
Wouldn't they rather miss work and come out on Monday?Alanbrooke said:
increasingly looking like the gilets jaunes are back on the streets tomorrow
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2018/12/14/01016-20181214ARTFIG00072-gilets-jaunes-acte-v-la-prefecture-de-police-se-prepare-au-scenario-le-plus-difficile.php0 -
Yes, but we cannot have mutual recognition of two completely different standards without inspections.Philip_Thompson said:
No we could agree to the principle of mutual recognition in a trade deal.DecrepitJohnL said:
If we set standards, who will enforce them and where? And if our standards are different from Europe's (or anyone else's) then exports will also need to be inspected.Philip_Thompson said:
Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.0 -
I think the exact phrase was 'wake me up when remain reaches 60%'. In the meantime they are presumably still asleep.Anazina said:Remain heading towards 60% on the latest YouGov. I remember when PBers said once polling reached 60% the game will change. Not there yet. But not far off.
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No it isn't necessary. Mutual recognition is an alternative option but the EU don't want to give us that.Recidivist said:
The WTO is just an admin office. It can't call in a UN peacekeeping force. We can have whatever border we wish.Xenon said:
Is there any example of the WTO insisting on a hard border even if it would cause political upheaval and possibly bloodshed?TheScreamingEagles said:
If only it was that simple.John_M said:
We must treat every country that shares a land border with us equally and fairly.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Xenon said:
Is there any truth in this?GIN1138 said:
I thought WTO had said exceptions can be made when the political situation is particularly "delicate" like with NI and ROI?Foxy said:
Have they? On the radio last night they were saying that they (and we) would be obliged to under WTO rules.GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
We could choose not to enforce a hard border but another nation could bring a complaint which could force a hard border.
“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.
“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136?mode=amp
Given how many nations are looking to use the WTO to get a better deal from the UK a successful complaint is inevitable.
I am really dubious that this would ever happen.
The trouble is that if the UK diverges from the EU in its regulations then a hard border becomes necessary. It the UK doesn't diverge, then what exactly was the point of this whole Brexit business?0 -
Poor people shouldn't be allowed to vote. We lost the Empire when we extended the franchise. Coincidence? I think not.Foxy said:
This wouldnever have happened before we had the 1832 Reform Act.Richard_Nabavi said:Give women the vote, and look where we are now!
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Yes we can. That's the whole point of mutual recognition. When we first joined the EEC mutual recognition is the principle that underpinned most trade within it.DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes, but we cannot have mutual recognition of two completely different standards without inspections.Philip_Thompson said:
No we could agree to the principle of mutual recognition in a trade deal.DecrepitJohnL said:
If we set standards, who will enforce them and where? And if our standards are different from Europe's (or anyone else's) then exports will also need to be inspected.Philip_Thompson said:
Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.0 -
Futile displacement activity is very much le mot juste du jour, n'est-ce pas?Luckyguy1983 said:
It is pethaps at least worth a try.kle4 said:
Whatever the legitimate grievances may be a lot of people seem to believe even now that just 'standing up' gets new facts.AlastairMeeks said:
Glad to be of service:grabcocque said:I think we need to hear from the DUP today.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/10735260653463019520 -
She really doesn’t help herself ...
https://twitter.com/jamescrisp6/status/1073378170898919424?s=210 -
At least under the empire those pesky bog-trotting potato-munchers knew their place.0
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I've always been up for a second referendum. Democracy is a process not an event. Just make it happen, I don't see why I should have to do all the work around here.Recidivist said:
I think the exact phrase was 'wake me up when remain reaches 60%'. In the meantime they are presumably still asleep.Anazina said:Remain heading towards 60% on the latest YouGov. I remember when PBers said once polling reached 60% the game will change. Not there yet. But not far off.
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I remember mutual recognition of drug licensing when the EMA was still new. I don't recommend it.Philip_Thompson said:
No it isn't necessary. Mutual recognition is an alternative option but the EU don't want to give us that.Recidivist said:
The WTO is just an admin office. It can't call in a UN peacekeeping force. We can have whatever border we wish.Xenon said:
Is there any example of the WTO insisting on a hard border even if it would cause political upheaval and possibly bloodshed?TheScreamingEagles said:
If only it was that simple.John_M said:
We must treat every country that shares a land border with us equally and fairly.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Xenon said:
Is there any truth in this?GIN1138 said:
I thought WTO had said exceptions can be made when the political situation is particularly "delicate" like with NI and ROI?Foxy said:
Have they? On the radio last night they were saying that they (and we) would be obliged to under WTO rules.GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
We could choose not to enforce a hard border but another nation could bring a complaint which could force a hard border.
“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.
“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136?mode=amp
Given how many nations are looking to use the WTO to get a better deal from the UK a successful complaint is inevitable.
I am really dubious that this would ever happen.
The trouble is that if the UK diverges from the EU in its regulations then a hard border becomes necessary. It the UK doesn't diverge, then what exactly was the point of this whole Brexit business?0 -
If you adjust for don't knows, it is very close to that threshold now.John_M said:
I've always been up for a second referendum. Democracy is a process not an event. Just make it happen, I don't see why I should have to do all the work around here.Recidivist said:
I think the exact phrase was 'wake me up when remain reaches 60%'. In the meantime they are presumably still asleep.Anazina said:Remain heading towards 60% on the latest YouGov. I remember when PBers said once polling reached 60% the game will change. Not there yet. But not far off.
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Mutual recognition applies *only* to goods that are outside of EU harmonisation. Believing that the EU would give the UK, and only the UK, untrammeled permission to water down any and all EU standards as it saw fit, and carry on trading with the EU regardless?Philip_Thompson said:
No it isn't necessary. Mutual recognition is an alternative option but the EU don't want to give us that.
Insanity. It's cake and unicorns. It's a unicorn made of cake.
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I am quite clear that nothing has changed.SeanT said:
Oh god. We really are fucked, aren't we?SouthamObserver said:She really doesn’t help herself ...
https://twitter.com/jamescrisp6/status/1073378170898919424?s=21
My deal is the only deal on the table.
I am getting on with the job of delivering Brexit.0 -
No we can't. It only works once. As soon as you introduce a second such deal with a third country, you need inspections. Otherwise how does country A know we are not trying to slip them goods made to country B's different standards?Philip_Thompson said:
Yes we can. That's the whole point of mutual recognition.DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes, but we cannot have mutual recognition of two completely different standards without inspections.Philip_Thompson said:
No we could agree to the principle of mutual recognition in a trade deal.DecrepitJohnL said:
If we set standards, who will enforce them and where? And if our standards are different from Europe's (or anyone else's) then exports will also need to be inspected.Philip_Thompson said:
Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.
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Again, mutual recognition applies only to markets where there has been no EU harmonisation.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes we can. That's the whole point of mutual recognition. When we first joined the EEC mutual recognition is the principle that underpinned most trade within it.DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes, but we cannot have mutual recognition of two completely different standards without inspections.Philip_Thompson said:
No we could agree to the principle of mutual recognition in a trade deal.DecrepitJohnL said:
If we set standards, who will enforce them and where? And if our standards are different from Europe's (or anyone else's) then exports will also need to be inspected.Philip_Thompson said:
Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.
This may come as a surprise to you, but there's been a *lot* of harmonisation in the last four decades.0 -
A lot of your income is in foreign currencies.SeanT said:Can someone give me a reason to be cheerful. My soul doth fill with plenteous fear and forebodin'
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It’ll be fun.SeanT said:
Oh god. We really are fucked, aren't we?SouthamObserver said:She really doesn’t help herself ...
https://twitter.com/jamescrisp6/status/1073378170898919424?s=21
I’m really looking forward to No Deal.
We survived WWII we can survive this.0 -
I've never insisted on any threshold. Behold the Tories. Behold Labour. One of them needs to instigate a referendum. Only they need to do it sharpish on account of the UK trundling inexorably towards the bright sunlit uplands/crocodile pit of doom (delete according to your sensibilities) on March 29th.tottenhamWC said:
If you adjust for don't knows, it is very close to that threshold now.John_M said:
I've always been up for a second referendum. Democracy is a process not an event. Just make it happen, I don't see why I should have to do all the work around here.Recidivist said:
I think the exact phrase was 'wake me up when remain reaches 60%'. In the meantime they are presumably still asleep.Anazina said:Remain heading towards 60% on the latest YouGov. I remember when PBers said once polling reached 60% the game will change. Not there yet. But not far off.
0 -
With no Vaseline.SeanT said:
Oh god. We really are fucked, aren't we?SouthamObserver said:She really doesn’t help herself ...
https://twitter.com/jamescrisp6/status/1073378170898919424?s=210 -
I think you'll find the EU already has multiple mutual recognition agreements. https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/goods/international-aspects/mutual-recognition-agreements_enDecrepitJohnL said:
No we can't. It only works once. As soon as you introduce a second such deal with a third country, you need inspections. Otherwise how does country A know we are not trying to slip them goods made to country B's different standards?Philip_Thompson said:
Yes we can. That's the whole point of mutual recognition.DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes, but we cannot have mutual recognition of two completely different standards without inspections.Philip_Thompson said:
No we could agree to the principle of mutual recognition in a trade deal.DecrepitJohnL said:
If we set standards, who will enforce them and where? And if our standards are different from Europe's (or anyone else's) then exports will also need to be inspected.Philip_Thompson said:
Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.0 -
Well at least it breaks the deadlock and avoids Corbyn as PM.Pulpstar said:
Cable's price would be a 2nd referendum.grabcocque said:
If the DUP VONC the government simply as a warning shot. Vote with Labour, government falls. 14 day clock starts ticking. May would then be forced to find her majority somewhere else. Practically, that would leave May only one other option: the Lib Dems. I really doubt the DUP are minded to drive May into the arms of the Lib Dems.Pulpstar said:
Why would they give up their stranglehold on the Tories ?bigjohnowls said:If the DUP want to kill the hated Deal. They just need to vote with Labour on a VONC
Simples0 -
Apart from the sixty million people who died, obvs.TheScreamingEagles said:
It’ll be fun.SeanT said:
Oh god. We really are fucked, aren't we?SouthamObserver said:She really doesn’t help herself ...
https://twitter.com/jamescrisp6/status/1073378170898919424?s=21
I’m really looking forward to No Deal.
We survived WWII we can survive this.0 -
So it's ok for Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Israel, Japan, Switzerland and USA but not us?Recidivist said:
I remember mutual recognition of drug licensing when the EMA was still new. I don't recommend it.Philip_Thompson said:
No it isn't necessary. Mutual recognition is an alternative option but the EU don't want to give us that.Recidivist said:
The WTO is just an admin office. It can't call in a UN peacekeeping force. We can have whatever border we wish.Xenon said:
Is there any example of the WTO insisting on a hard border even if it would cause political upheaval and possibly bloodshed?TheScreamingEagles said:
If only it was that simple.John_M said:
We must treat every country that shares a land border with us equally and fairly.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Xenon said:
Is there any truth in this?GIN1138 said:
I thought WTO had said exceptions can be made when the political situation is particularly "delicate" like with NI and ROI?Foxy said:
Have they? On the radio last night they were saying that they (and we) would be obliged to under WTO rules.GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
We could choose not to enforce a hard border but another nation could bring a complaint which could force a hard border.
“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.
“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136?mode=amp
Given how many nations are looking to use the WTO to get a better deal from the UK a successful complaint is inevitable.
I am really dubious that this would ever happen.
The trouble is that if the UK diverges from the EU in its regulations then a hard border becomes necessary. It the UK doesn't diverge, then what exactly was the point of this whole Brexit business?
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/research-development/compliance/good-manufacturing-practice/mutual-recognition-agreements-mra0 -
Mr. T, shifts in sentiment only matter if there's another referendum. It's a credible possibility but far from nailed on.
(I hedged my 6.5 on one happening by backing 1.72 on it not a day or two ago).0 -
You need to break a few eggs to make an omelette.grabcocque said:
Apart from the sixty million people who died, obvs.TheScreamingEagles said:
It’ll be fun.SeanT said:
Oh god. We really are fucked, aren't we?SouthamObserver said:She really doesn’t help herself ...
https://twitter.com/jamescrisp6/status/1073378170898919424?s=21
I’m really looking forward to No Deal.
We survived WWII we can survive this.
A bit of short term pain for the long term gain of Rejoining.0 -
Within the EU it does. Not with external trade deals and we would be external. Hence why the EMA (harmonied) has mutual recognition with others in trade deals.grabcocque said:
Again, mutual recognition applies only to markets where there has been no EU harmonisation.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes we can. That's the whole point of mutual recognition. When we first joined the EEC mutual recognition is the principle that underpinned most trade within it.DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes, but we cannot have mutual recognition of two completely different standards without inspections.Philip_Thompson said:
No we could agree to the principle of mutual recognition in a trade deal.DecrepitJohnL said:
If we set standards, who will enforce them and where? And if our standards are different from Europe's (or anyone else's) then exports will also need to be inspected.Philip_Thompson said:
Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.
This may come as a surprise to you, but there's been a *lot* of harmonisation in the last four decades.0 -
I saw a whole bunch of them in London yesterday...Alanbrooke said:
increasingly looking like the gilets jaunes are back on the streets tomorrow
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2018/12/14/01016-20181214ARTFIG00072-gilets-jaunes-acte-v-la-prefecture-de-police-se-prepare-au-scenario-le-plus-difficile.php
...OK, so it might have been a primary school class on a trip, but they looked the part!0 -
Looking forward to hearing HYUFD explain how the events of the last 24 hours and the YouGov poll are good news for Mrs May's deal.0
-
There's abundant reason - this was all meant to be, May's disastrous negotiation included. Perhaps this is the shot in the arm we need.SeanT said:Can someone give me a reason to be cheerful. My soul doth fill with plenteous fear and forebodin'
0 -
I see George Osborne has got yet another job !!!!0
-
-
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?0 -
Perhaps #WRAF will catch on like #FBPE.SeanT said:
Oh god. We really are fucked, aren't we?SouthamObserver said:She really doesn’t help herself ...
https://twitter.com/jamescrisp6/status/1073378170898919424?s=210 -
https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-11th-september-2018-2-2-2/
Opinium has Remain leading 45% to 33% over the Deal, in a second referendum. Switchers from Leave to Remain, and Remain to Deal cancel each other out, but far more Leavers than Remainers are undecided.
Deal would likely win, if enough Brexiters could bring themselves to support it.
Supplementary questions suggest how that could be achieved.
0 -
Needs one more Number 10.FrancisUrquhart said:I see George Osborne has got yet another job !!!!
Sigh.0 -
Brexit has collapsed. We are going to remain.SeanT said:Can someone give me a reason to be cheerful. My soul doth fill with plenteous fear and forebodin'
0 -
Hold on. Didn't you vote for all this? Or did I miss something?SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.0 -
If you're suggesting this is all being willed by some vengeful trickster old testament-style god then frankly, the Universe is in deep shit.Luckyguy1983 said:
There's abundant reason - this was all meant to be, May's disastrous negotiation included. Perhaps this is the shot in the arm we need.SeanT said:Can someone give me a reason to be cheerful. My soul doth fill with plenteous fear and forebodin'
0 -
I wonder how many instances are recorded of people surviving hari kari.TheScreamingEagles said:
It’ll be fun.SeanT said:
Oh god. We really are fucked, aren't we?SouthamObserver said:She really doesn’t help herself ...
https://twitter.com/jamescrisp6/status/1073378170898919424?s=21
I’m really looking forward to No Deal.
We survived WWII we can survive this.0 -
Was about to answer "No! Of course not!"SeanT said:
By next year it will have percolated through to the public that we indeed heading for a big crash. It may only cause whiplash and bruises, or it may break an arm, both legs and take out an eye. Either way, no one denies we are heading towards a significant jolt.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. T, shifts in sentiment only matter if there's another referendum. It's a credible possibility but far from nailed on.
(I hedged my 6.5 on one happening by backing 1.72 on it not a day or two ago).
The polls could swing 65-35 Remain/Leave, even 70-30. Could any prime minister ignore that?
Then I remembered who our PM is
0 -
Mr. T, could Theresa May ignore something obvious and instead do something politically stupid?
I think that question's been answered just recently.0 -
Several, yes, but not many, hardly comprehensive, and they still depend on inspections, not magic. It is just accepting that it can be done in the other country.Philip_Thompson said:
I think you'll find the EU already has multiple mutual recognition agreements. https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/goods/international-aspects/mutual-recognition-agreements_enDecrepitJohnL said:
No we can't. It only works once. As soon as you introduce a second such deal with a third country, you need inspections. Otherwise how does country A know we are not trying to slip them goods made to country B's different standards?Philip_Thompson said:
Yes we can. That's the whole point of mutual recognition.DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes, but we cannot have mutual recognition of two completely different standards without inspections.Philip_Thompson said:
No we could agree to the principle of mutual recognition in a trade deal.DecrepitJohnL said:
If we set standards, who will enforce them and where? And if our standards are different from Europe's (or anyone else's) then exports will also need to be inspected.Philip_Thompson said:
Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.0 -
I think he exaggerated a little for dramatic effect, but I heard a talk about the international harmonisation of the pharmacopeial monograph for benzyl alcohol, which took from something like 1854 to 1992 to agree. Sure you can do it, but it isn't fun.Philip_Thompson said:
So it's ok for Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Israel, Japan, Switzerland and USA but not us?Recidivist said:
I remember mutual recognition of drug licensing when the EMA was still new. I don't recommend it.Philip_Thompson said:
No it isn't necessary. Mutual recognition is an alternative option but the EU don't want to give us that.Recidivist said:
The WTO is just an admin office. It can't call in a UN peacekeeping force. We can have whatever border we wish.Xenon said:
Is there any example of the WTO insisting on a hard border even if it would cause political upheaval and possibly bloodshed?TheScreamingEagles said:
If only it was that simple.John_M said:
We must treat every country that shares a land border with us equally and fairly.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Xenon said:
Is there any truth in this?GIN1138 said:
?Foxy said:
Have they? On the radio last night they were saying that they (and we) would be obliged to under WTO rules.GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
r.
“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.
“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136?mode=amp
Given how many nations are looking to use the WTO to get a better deal from the UK a successful complaint is inevitable.
I am really dubious that this would ever happen.
The trouble is that if the UK diverges from the EU in its regulations then a hard border becomes necessary. It the UK doesn't diverge, then what exactly was the point of this whole Brexit business?
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/research-development/compliance/good-manufacturing-practice/mutual-recognition-agreements-mra0 -
He did.rottenborough said:
Hold on. Didn't you vote for all this? Or did I miss something?SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
He can’t say he wasn’t warned about No Deal.
He needs to sack up.0 -
Brexit, a warning from history.Toms said:
I wonder how many instances are recorded of people surviving hari kari.TheScreamingEagles said:
It’ll be fun.SeanT said:
Oh god. We really are fucked, aren't we?SouthamObserver said:She really doesn’t help herself ...
https://twitter.com/jamescrisp6/status/1073378170898919424?s=21
I’m really looking forward to No Deal.
We survived WWII we can survive this.
http://www.historynet.com/a-kamikaze-who-lived-to-tell-the-tale.htm0 -
What's that going over a cliff?
Is it a Brexit?
Is it a Brexit?0 -
Bingo! No magic and not at the border.DecrepitJohnL said:
Several, yes, but not many, hardly comprehensive, and they still depend on inspections, not magic. It is just accepting that it can be done in the other country.Philip_Thompson said:
I think you'll find the EU already has multiple mutual recognition agreements. https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/goods/international-aspects/mutual-recognition-agreements_enDecrepitJohnL said:
No we can't. It only works once. As soon as you introduce a second such deal with a third country, you need inspections. Otherwise how does country A know we are not trying to slip them goods made to country B's different standards?Philip_Thompson said:
Yes we can. That's the whole point of mutual recognition.DecrepitJohnL said:
Yes, but we cannot have mutual recognition of two completely different standards without inspections.Philip_Thompson said:
No we could agree to the principle of mutual recognition in a trade deal.DecrepitJohnL said:
If we set standards, who will enforce them and where? And if our standards are different from Europe's (or anyone else's) then exports will also need to be inspected.Philip_Thompson said:
Why would it be a disaster there? We set the standards and can tailor them somewhat to assist domestic producers. And if the Uruguayans can meet those standards then at least our consumers benefit.
We sign a mutual recognition agreement with the EU. We do inspections at businesses within the country.
No magic. No hard border. No unicorns, fairies or cake.0 -
All it takes is for the EU to wind back 40 years of harmonization and completely rewrite the very foundation of the single market as it has existed since the early 90s!Philip_Thompson said:
No magic. No hard border. No unicorns, fairies or cake.
WHAT IS UNREASONABLE ABOUT THAT REQUEST?0 -
the considered view of the regulars after several pints last night was theyre all a shower of shit. One bloke asked who would you vote for today and nobody in the pub could think of anyone. Across the board the politicans are damaging themselves.SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.0 -
We made the decision in June 2016.SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
The country was told No Deal was a possibility but they still voted Leave.
Say we have another referendum and Remain wins are Leavers going to accept it? Hell no.
We’ll be in never ending referenda.
The only way this is solved is by experiencing a few years outside the EU.0 -
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.0 -
+12 pts for "shambling omnifuck"Alanbrooke said:
the considered view of the regulars after several pints last night was theyre all a shower of shit. One bloke asked who would you vote for today and nobody in the pub could think of anyone. Across the board the politicans are damaging themselves.SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.0 -
You missed SeanT's flip-flopping.,. you should be used to it by now.rottenborough said:
Hold on. Didn't you vote for all this? Or did I miss something?SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
but the numbers and the 'big mo' are going one way really..
Let's stay and piss inside their tent....0 -
I guess that what happens is somewhat defined by what is happening in marginal Labour seats in the Midlands and Northern suburbs. If local canvassing indicates that those have tipped from Leave to Remain, it might change things a bit.John_M said:
I've always been up for a second referendum. Democracy is a process not an event. Just make it happen, I don't see why I should have to do all the work around here.Recidivist said:
I think the exact phrase was 'wake me up when remain reaches 60%'. In the meantime they are presumably still asleep.Anazina said:Remain heading towards 60% on the latest YouGov. I remember when PBers said once polling reached 60% the game will change. Not there yet. But not far off.
0 -
That is indeed what most respondents to the Opinium poll I cited think.David_Evershed said:
The people have already voted to Leave so presumably you would be asking the people to choose by which route to Leave?SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
0 -
The kamikaze pilots’ annual reunion was rarely well attended.Toms said:
I wonder how many instances are recorded of people surviving hari kari.TheScreamingEagles said:
It’ll be fun.SeanT said:
Oh god. We really are fucked, aren't we?SouthamObserver said:She really doesn’t help herself ...
https://twitter.com/jamescrisp6/status/1073378170898919424?s=21
I’m really looking forward to No Deal.
We survived WWII we can survive this.0 -
Well if they want to keep the border open ...grabcocque said:
All it takes is for the EU to wind back 40 years of harmonization and completely rewrite the very foundation of the single market as it has existed since the early 90s!Philip_Thompson said:
No magic. No hard border. No unicorns, fairies or cake.
WHAT IS UNREASONABLE ABOUT THAT REQUEST?
... plus they have done it for other countries.
It is a legitimate, viable solution. Just because they don't like the idea does not make it less so.0 -
I think theyll get the full bladder. In an election if the stay in option is used we'll have a reaction like the SNP boost post Indyref imo. We will send a lot of very pissed off disruptive people to Brussels.Slackbladder said:
You missed SeanT's flip-flopping.,. you should be used to it by now.rottenborough said:
Hold on. Didn't you vote for all this? Or did I miss something?SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
but the numbers and the 'big mo' are going one way really..
Let's stay and piss inside their tent....0 -
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.0 -
-
Christmas is coming and the goose is getting fat.SeanT said:Can someone give me a reason to be cheerful. My soul doth fill with plenteous fear and forebodin'
We live in bounteous times.0 -
Article 50 would still exist (although of course be of no relevance to us).SeanT said:
Yep, I voted for this. I still think it was the right moral choice. We should be Out. I had under-estimated, however, the complete nightmare that is Article 50 (which, of course, should not and would not exist if we had been given our promised referendum, and then voted down the Lisbon Treaty).rottenborough said:
Hold on. Didn't you vote for all this? Or did I miss something?SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Leaving under A50 without extreme pain is almost impossible. It is definitely impossible if you are led by a stubborn, autistic heifer with the political skills of the Ebola virus. From that first speech setting out her red lines, to the needless triggering of A50, on and on she went, error after error.
Now we are truly screwed.
I do query, however, the assumption that 'no' would have won a referendum on the Lisbon treaty (pre-Brown's signing), or that a 'no' would have automatically have led to us leaving the EU.
A referendum on Lisbon *after* Brown had signed would have been an expensive and meaningless affair.0 -
If a second referendum did result in our staying in, because enough Leavers stayed at home, there would likely be considerable buyers' remorse.TheScreamingEagles said:
We made the decision in June 2016.SeanT said:
Because democracy is generally expressed through parliament, yet, right now, parliament is literally incapable of making a decision. There is a majority against No Deal, there is a majority against the only Deal on offer. It is the very definition of an impasse.TheScreamingEagles said:
No.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
Why do you hate democracy?
With parliament entirely paralysed, I think it is fair to go for the only other solution (none of this is ideal, clearly) and hand the choice back to the people.
I genuinely do not know who would win, but at least it is closer to sensible democracy than the shambling omnifuck we see in the Commons daily.
The country was told No Deal was a possibility but they still voted Leave.
Say we have another referendum and Remain wins are Leavers going to accept it? Hell no.
We’ll be in never ending referenda.
The only way this is solved is by experiencing a few years outside the EU.
Again, Opinium have 57% believing we'll just be asked again until we give the "right" answer.0 -
What’s the betting drunker made one of his famous quips, but Maybot is in angry setting today and not taking.Scott_P said:0 -
Nonsense. We can leave, there's a perfectly good deal on the table, all 500+ pages of it fully agreed. It can come into force on the 29th March.Xenon said:
Two years of project fear and bleating about how "impossible" it is and then make us vote again.SeanT said:
OK. These are big shifts. Finally. The stupid, witless, jellified, cowardly, spineless proles have got the heebie-jeebies, thank God.tottenhamWC said:
Clear where the momentum is heading here. And surely it is going to move even more in that direction by early next year....El_Capitano said:Have we seen this before?
https://twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1073521199869816832
Let's have another vote.
It was obvious from the start that they'd never let us leave.
Bizarrely, though, a significant group of those who campaigned for exactly what is on the table have decided to throw their toys out of the pram. Lord only knows why, but that's what they are doing. They have trashed the deal, and therefore they have trashed Brexit. Up to them, of course, but you can't blame Remainers, or the government, for the fact that Brexiteers have changed their minds when faced with Brexit.0 -
Dura_Ace said:
Leaving under A50 is very possible The UK is trying to leave while retaining most of the benefits of membership. That's impossible.SeanT said:
Leaving under A50 without extreme pain is almost impossible.
A lot - The fall out from No Deal is going to come as shock to a lot of people.SeanT said:Anecdote. I sat down with my 23 year old wife last night and explained, as non-patronisingly as possible, exactly what Brexit means, and what No Deal could entail (she asked me to tell her, I did not offer this pompous advice)
She was sincerely horrified. She had literally no clue about any of it. She is smart, has 3As at A Level, went to SOAS (tho dropped out because it's too PC), etc. She just finds the news boring and depressing and avoids it. She says all of her friends are the same, none of them think or talk about Brexit, let alone worry about it. She also reckons this is true of much of her family, and relatives.
How many are like her. Have no real idea what is happening, or about to happen?0 -
The tactic we should have employed from the start.Xenon said:
I'm talking about once we've left on WTO no deal. There will be no WA for them to peddle anymore, we would be in a completely different situation.Foxy said:
They are not blocking such a deal. Just the small matter of the UK signing the WA on the dotted line first.Xenon said:
This would give the EU the incentive to make a free trade deal with us. It's them blocking the deal and not us.TheScreamingEagles said:
But then someone like Argentina kicks up a fuss and wins their complaint.Philip_Thompson said:
And the UK tariff free exports to the EU. Simples. Problem solved.rcs1000 said:
The WTO would not insist on a hard border in Northern Ireland, .Xenon said:
Do people really believe that they will?TheWhiteRabbit said:
If I'm a French milkXenon said:
I am really dubious that this would ever happen.TheScreamingEagles said:
If only it was that simple.John_M said:
We must treat every country that shares a land border with us equally and fairly.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes and No.Xenon said:
Is there any truth in this?GIN1138 said:Foxy said:GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.
“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136?mode=amp
Given how many nations are looking to use the WTO to get a better deal from the UK a successful complaint is inevitable.
They have already been making noises.
A hard border is not going to happen.
Then they would be open to negotiating on an even playing field and any WTO complaints would hasten a deal as it will be in both parties' interests.0 -
Here's one from left field. How about a referendum to rejoin on March 30?
We will have Left. Referendum fulfilled. If we vote Leave again we stay out.0 -
How must the ERG be regretting not waiting 2 days...
Their serial fuckups have cost them their lives dream. Heart of stone and all that.0 -
I wonder if given the riducling today from EU officials if Maybot might just say fuck you all I’m off?Scott_P said:How must the ERG be regretting not waiting 2 days...
Their serial fuckups have cost them their lives dream. Heart of stone and all that.0
This discussion has been closed.