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Yeah, I meant against.Pulpstar said:
I don't think there is an overwhelming majority for no deal.TheScreamingEagles said:
There's an overwhelming majority for No Deal, which means one ofDavidL said:The problem with Parliament taking control is that it has convincing majorities against everything. What is it for?
1) Extending Article 50
2) Revoking Article 50
3) Norway0 -
Grieve said his amendment wasn't about primary legislation.Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.0 -
It's only fun if he is ruling in the way people like, otherwise its unnecessary.RochdalePioneers said:I love Bercow! "If you don't like it you can frankly lump it!"
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As PB's leading Republican, I'm the man for this occasion.Recidivist said:
Give me a plain russet coated PBer who knows what he posts for and loves what he knows.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm taking inspiration from the English Civil War.Recidivist said:
That wouldn’t be anything like the one that Robespiere set up would it?TheScreamingEagles said:
It creates a committee of safety to negotiate with a third party.Mortimer said:
I’m looking forward to your explanation of how parliament can negotiate a deal with a third party.Anazina said:
Yes it all rather gives the lie to the piles of steaming garbage that the likes of @Mortimer and @Charles have been serving up on the matter.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even though this all makes Brexit less likely I am pleased with these two results. Any argument about negotiation by Parliament being a bad idea (which might at least have had some measure of validity) was ended once the Deal was agreed. From now on it should be Parliament not the Executive that have the final say on these things.AlastairMeeks said:I'm looking forward to the analysis of today in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty where people earnestly explain that the executive is sovereign on governmental matters.
That said they should also be prepared for the consequences if they betray the electorate.
As an aside I still don't see how they get around the deadline issue. If the Government simply chooses not to bring any further legislation forward, how in practice do Parliament force No Deal off the table?0 -
I think you mean against no deal and I would agree. Which is why the ERG were being even more moronic than usual in not getting behind May’s deal. Too late now I fear. Those that lied about respecting the vote have the whip hand and want far more than May was willing to offer.TheScreamingEagles said:
There's an overwhelming majority for No Deal, which means one ofDavidL said:The problem with Parliament taking control is that it has convincing majorities against everything. What is it for?
1) Extending Article 50
2) Revoking Article 50
3) Norway0 -
In O'Flynn's case, I think it was mainly so he wouldn't be reclassified as a non-escrit and lose his committee seats in the EP.Richard_Nabavi said:
What's the advantage, over forming a new party?AlastairMeeks said:
A well-informed source has suggested to me that there may be a reverse takeover about to take place of the previously moribund SDP. Patrick O’Flynn may be the scout.NickPalmer said:We should probably be paying attention to Farage at this point too - resigning from UKIP simply has to be the prelude to something else:he's not the type to just go and grow tomatoes.
In a more general sense? Infrastructure and brand recognition, and not having to go through the lengthy process of registering a political party with the electoral commission.0 -
You are right. Any change of direction on what the final relationship should be won't help with the Irish backstop, which is the principal sticking point.Richard_Tyndall said:So how do you get all that agreed in a couple of months? I am not entirely opposed to it although the customs union idea is deeply dumb and will be a millstone round our necks. But I just don't see how you get to that position from here.
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May should call for a Brexit election now. And actually campaign. Based on her deal.Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
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We may as well stay in. It is absurd for Britain to be in a position where it has to abide by rules and pay money to do so without having any say in those rules. The absolute opposite of taking back control, in fact. Quite as humiliating as this backstop everyone is going on about.alex. said:
And ongoing large payments into the EU coffers...AllyPally_Rob said:
I largely agree.grabcocque said:Norway+ just seems like a dream outcome. Decouples us from ever closer union, the Euro, the CAP and CFP whilst leaving us in the single market. Resolves the NI border issue. Puts a stop to Tories endless nonsensical love affair with chlorinated American chickens.
It crushes our ERG your enemies, sees them driven before us, and to hear the lamentation of their women. Sends the gammons incandescent with rage, splitting off the reactionary half of Tory vote to vote for Tommy Robinson's UKIP, leaving the Tories a ranting, gammon-Mogg filled rump trapped in opposition forever.
I see zero downsides.
But somebody is going to have to step up and be honest with the British people and tell them that getting the above requires allowing freedom of movement, and that on balance that is a decent deal to accept.
And no “voice at the table”0 -
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.0 -
Perhaps so, but in which case...what? Of course they're more likely to coalesce around an imperfect alternative even if their opposition to some degree is purely just because they did not negotiate it.alex. said:A lot of the comments on “overwhelming opposition to May’s deal”, Parliament will coalesce around an alternative, rather bypass the fact that a large chunk of Labour opposition is based on nothing more than the fact that they didn’t negotiate it.
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grabcocque said:
I'm hoping he joins the SDP like Patrick O'Flynn.Richard_Nabavi said:
He's starting a new party, surely? "There's a huge space for a Brexit party in British politics, but it won't be filled by UKIP".NickPalmer said:We should probably be paying attention to Farage at this point too - resigning from UKIP simply has to be the prelude to something else:he's not the type to just go and grow tomatoes.
Everything old is new again.
Don’t think I will be along for the ride this time.0 -
Eloquently put. Your incisive analysis of Tories’ bizarre extramarital affair with knackered broilers was particularly compelling.grabcocque said:Norway+ just seems like a dream outcome. Decouples us from ever closer union, the Euro, the CAP and CFP whilst leaving us in the single market. Resolves the NI border issue. Puts a stop to Tories endless nonsensical love affair with chlorinated American chickens.
It crushes our ERG enemies, sees them driven before us, and to hear the lamentation of their women. Sends the gammons incandescent with rage, splitting off the reactionary half of the Tory vote to vote for Tommy Robinson's UKIP, leaving the Tories a ranting, gammon-Mogg filled rump trapped in opposition forever.
I see zero downsides.0 -
They don't have to come up with a name. Sounds silly, but as several abortive attempts at new centrist parties will show, the name can be a tricky thing.Richard_Nabavi said:
What's the advantage, over forming a new party?AlastairMeeks said:
A well-informed source has suggested to me that there may be a reverse takeover about to take place of the previously moribund SDP. Patrick O’Flynn may be the scout.NickPalmer said:We should probably be paying attention to Farage at this point too - resigning from UKIP simply has to be the prelude to something else:he's not the type to just go and grow tomatoes.
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Doesn't stop a large chunk of the Tory Party from not supporting her deal though. Even if she put it into her manifesto and won the election on it, there'd still be enough headbangers to block it.Mortimer said:
May should call for a Brexit election now. And actually campaign. Based on her deal.Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.0 -
I imagine it has various registrations sorted, some form of infrastructure and a folk memory with the name. But I speculate.Richard_Nabavi said:
What's the advantage, over forming a new party?AlastairMeeks said:
A well-informed source has suggested to me that there may be a reverse takeover about to take place of the previously moribund SDP. Patrick O’Flynn may be the scout.NickPalmer said:We should probably be paying attention to Farage at this point too - resigning from UKIP simply has to be the prelude to something else:he's not the type to just go and grow tomatoes.
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Art50 extension for renegotiation of the WA seems the only way. It'd need to be a fairly lengthy extension too, not the mooted 3mths.Richard_Tyndall said:So how do you get all that agreed in a couple of months? I am not entirely opposed to it although the customs union idea is deeply dumb and will be a millstone round our necks. But I just don't see how you get to that position from here.
Likely the EU tells us to sod off at that point, of course.
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You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.0 -
I'd have thought that the folk memory would be actively harmful. Anyone old enough to remember will think of Shirley Williams, Roy Jenkins and David Owen, none of them natural bedfellows for Farage supporters.AlastairMeeks said:I imagine it has various registrations sorted, some form of infrastructure and a folk memory with the name. But I speculate.
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Makes me think of another quote:Recidivist said:
Give me a plain russet coated PBer who knows what he posts for and loves what he knows.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm taking inspiration from the English Civil War.Recidivist said:
That wouldn’t be anything like the one that Robespiere set up would it?TheScreamingEagles said:
It creates a committee of safety to negotiate with a third party.Mortimer said:
I’m looking forward to your explanation of how parliament can negotiate a deal with a third party.Anazina said:
Yes it all rather gives the lie to the piles of steaming garbage that the likes of @Mortimer and @Charles have been serving up on the matter.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even though this all makes Brexit less likely I am pleased with these two results. Any argument about negotiation by Parliament being a bad idea (which might at least have had some measure of validity) was ended once the Deal was agreed. From now on it should be Parliament not the Executive that have the final say on these things.AlastairMeeks said:I'm looking forward to the analysis of today in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty where people earnestly explain that the executive is sovereign on governmental matters.
That said they should also be prepared for the consequences if they betray the electorate.
As an aside I still don't see how they get around the deadline issue. If the Government simply chooses not to bring any further legislation forward, how in practice do Parliament force No Deal off the table?
The remainer need not care how oft he fights... If we fight 100 times and beat them 99 they will be a remainer still, but if they beats us but once, or the last time, we shall be mocked we shall lose our credibility, and our Leave shall be undone.0 -
As long as it includes the customs union it deals with the backstop and as it also includes the single market even the DUP could accept it as their concern is the single market elements Northern Ireland has to comply with but not GB.Richard_Tyndall said:
So how do you get all that agreed in a couple of months? I am not entirely opposed to it although the customs union idea is deeply dumb and will be a millstone round our necks. But I just don't see how you get to that position from here.HYUFD said:
Ultimately yes but that could be worked out in the future relationship talks, the UK would be committing to signing up to all single market and customs union rules. Bar the ERG Tories and Corbynistas and Field, Mann, Hoey and Stringer and the DUP I would expect most Labour and Tory MPs and all LD and SNP MPs and Lucas and Hermon to back SM and CU over the risk of No Deal if May's Deal is rejectedRichard_Tyndall said:
Does that not kind of ignore the fact that there would probably have to be a completely new EEA treaty agreed by both the EU and EFTA with unanimity from every country. That should take a couple of years at least. And who is going to support it when it is effectively the backstop in perpetuity?HYUFD said:
Norway+ Customs Union is now the most likely Brexit nthsgrabcocque said:
Well, Norway+ would require re-opening mpletely Impossible(tm).kle4 said:
That's why I said 'or whatever' since it's mostly just about which unicorn solution she might announce.alex. said:
But “Norway” or whatever, would be a post transition period situation. It isn’t even ruled out by May’s deal, since it would be a solution for the future trading arrangements which aren’t part of the deal.kle4 said:
Announce the plan is to go for Norway (or whatever) but that she is not the best person to attempt it, so she will ask the party to choose a temporary leader to negotiate that position and when that person is selected she will stand down as PM.AlastairMeeks said:So, if and when the government loses the meaningful vote, what is there left for Theresa May to do?
Oh, and it probably wouldn’t meet the EU’s redlines on the Irish border...
Until next week when it is not.
In my view it would be much worse than May's Deal with full free movement and permanent Customs Union but still better than No Deal so Parliament will reject May's Deal for a worse deal though it may be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal and much better for the economy than No Deal0 -
Farage starts a new party, Boris and dozen of Brexiteer Tories leave the Tory Party and join up with Nigel leading to 18 years of Corbyn government with landslides majorities to boot?NickPalmer said:We should probably be paying attention to Farage at this point too - resigning from UKIP simply has to be the prelude to something else:he's not the type to just go and grow tomatoes.
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CROSSOVER - Market re Leave on 29/03/19 - No now favourite.0
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If that's true, why did Norway agree to it..alex. said:0 -
The quickest option is a simple bill repealing the EU Withdrawal Act and then send the withdrawal letter to Brussels. A weeki or should do it, certainly a month.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
Needs must when the Devil drives....0 -
He's an ultra. He may well be smarter than the Brexit ultras but he is still an ultra, he would say and do anything to achieve his aims.Pulpstar said:
Grieve said his amendment wasn't about primary legislation.Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.0 -
You’ve changed your tune. Whatever happened to 52:48, accompanied by the stupid emoticon?Sunil_Prasannan said:No Brexit is better than a Bad Brexit?
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The Tories will at the next GE, they'll be slaughtered.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.0 -
The ERG nutjobs overplayed their hand . Either back Mays deal or get a softer Brexit or no Brexit .0
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Nope. At least some of them never voted to trigger A50 at all, but others have been very sneaky, waiting for the opportunity to reverse Brexit.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.0 -
Owen is a Leaver isn't he?Richard_Nabavi said:
I'd have thought that the folk memory would be actively harmful. Anyone old enough to remember will think of Shirley Williams, Roy Jenkins and David Owen, none of them natural bedfellows for Farage supporters.AlastairMeeks said:I imagine it has various registrations sorted, some form of infrastructure and a folk memory with the name. But I speculate.
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Over the last few weeks, the options seem to have narrowed and only May's Deal and Remain are left. I wonder if, in two week's time, only Remain will be left?Cyclefree said:
We may as well stay in. It is absurd for Britain to be in a position where it has to abide by rules and pay money to do so without having any say in those rules. The absolute opposite of taking back control, in fact. Quite as humiliating as this backstop everyone is going on about.alex. said:
And ongoing large payments into the EU coffers...AllyPally_Rob said:
I largely agree.grabcocque said:Norway+ just seems like a dream outcome. Decouples us from ever closer union, the Euro, the CAP and CFP whilst leaving us in the single market. Resolves the NI border issue. Puts a stop to Tories endless nonsensical love affair with chlorinated American chickens.
It crushes our ERG your enemies, sees them driven before us, and to hear the lamentation of their women. Sends the gammons incandescent with rage, splitting off the reactionary half of Tory vote to vote for Tommy Robinson's UKIP, leaving the Tories a ranting, gammon-Mogg filled rump trapped in opposition forever.
I see zero downsides.
But somebody is going to have to step up and be honest with the British people and tell them that getting the above requires allowing freedom of movement, and that on balance that is a decent deal to accept.
And no “voice at the table”0 -
Not as badly as they'd be slaughtered by No Deal. Anyway at this rate they'll be slaughtered in all scenarios.Pulpstar said:
The Tories will at the next GE, they'll be slaughtered.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.0 -
He is.TheScreamingEagles said:
Owen is a Leaver isn't he?Richard_Nabavi said:
I'd have thought that the folk memory would be actively harmful. Anyone old enough to remember will think of Shirley Williams, Roy Jenkins and David Owen, none of them natural bedfellows for Farage supporters.AlastairMeeks said:I imagine it has various registrations sorted, some form of infrastructure and a folk memory with the name. But I speculate.
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I honestly wonder if our democracy could survive that. But remainers won’t care. Anything for the cause.Beverley_C said:
The quickest option is a simple bill repealing the EU Withdrawal Act and then send the withdrawal letter to Brussels. A weeki or should do it, certainly a month.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
Needs must when the Devil drives....0 -
Would her MPs back her manifesto? or fight a coupon election on No deal or Remain manifestos?Mortimer said:
May should call for a Brexit election now. And actually campaign. Based on her deal.Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.0 -
I know this isn't news, but Corbyn is absolutely bleeding useless.0
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I think that both we and they are in danger of forgetting the basic situation out in the country. As others have pointed out, for all the back and forth inside the Westminster Bubble, the country is still pretty much evenly split between Leave and Remain. Anything that can (and will) be painted as abandoning Brexit will cause absolute uproar. Now that might be okay for people like Beverly with her Ireland bolthole but the chaos that will follow such a move will bring down a great many of those MPs at the very least and basically undermines any remaining faith that many people had in our democratic system. That is extremely dangerous.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
I agree entirely with Parliament having the final say in thee matters but, just as with going to war, it is one thing to have the power but quite another to be daft enough to exercise it.0 -
Pulpstar said:
The Tories will at the next GE, they'll be slaughtered.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
By whom? Corbyn? Lol.0 -
Makes sense. Executing Charles I was like triggering A50 - it satisfied the army/public vote, but those doing it didn't really have a coherent plan for what they would do afterwards, tried a number of extreme and desperate options before stabilising around a system quite a bit like what they had removed, except in name, and then at the end the whole thing was just called off and it was a massive waste of time and lives.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm taking inspiration from the English Civil War.Recidivist said:
That wouldn’t be anything like the one that Robespiere set up would it?TheScreamingEagles said:
It creates a committee of safety to negotiate with a third party.Mortimer said:
I’m looking forward to your explanation of how parliament can negotiate a deal with a third party.Anazina said:
Yes it all rather gives the lie to the piles of steaming garbage that the likes of @Mortimer and @Charles have been serving up on the matter.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even though this all makes Brexit less likely I am pleased with these two results. Any argument about negotiation by Parliament being a bad idea (which might at least have had some measure of validity) was ended once the Deal was agreed. From now on it should be Parliament not the Executive that have the final say on these things.AlastairMeeks said:I'm looking forward to the analysis of today in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty where people earnestly explain that the executive is sovereign on governmental matters.
That said they should also be prepared for the consequences if they betray the electorate.
As an aside I still don't see how they get around the deadline issue. If the Government simply chooses not to bring any further legislation forward, how in practice do Parliament force No Deal off the table?0 -
No - because Brexit won't be the issue that determines many people's votes.Mortimer said:
May should call for a Brexit election now. And actually campaign. Based on her deal.Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
Lab will just go big on handouts for everyone and that will drown out Brexit - at least to a significant degree.0 -
Someone's written a good line for him though: “This government is not taking back control, it is losing control.”AramintaMoonbeamQC said:I know this isn't news, but Corbyn is absolutely bleeding useless.
0 -
They won't be slaughtered, but they will lose.DavidL said:Pulpstar said:
The Tories will at the next GE, they'll be slaughtered.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
By whom? Corbyn? Lol.0 -
Owen is in favour of leaving the EU.Richard_Nabavi said:
I'd have thought that the folk memory would be actively harmful. Anyone old enough to remember will think of Shirley Williams, Roy Jenkins and David Owen, none of them natural bedfellows for Farage supporters.AlastairMeeks said:I imagine it has various registrations sorted, some form of infrastructure and a folk memory with the name. But I speculate.
0 -
So, you think it will survive No-Deal or a Vasslage Deal?DavidL said:
I honestly wonder if our democracy could survive that. But remainers won’t care. Anything for the cause.Beverley_C said:
The quickest option is a simple bill repealing the EU Withdrawal Act and then send the withdrawal letter to Brussels. A weeki or should do it, certainly a month.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
Needs must when the Devil drives....
UK politics is in trouble no matter what happens.0 -
Its extraordinary. We have an utterly woeful Prime Minister not in control of even her own Cabinet heading for a massive defeat. We also have an utterly woeful Leader of the Opposition in the deep shadow of the Shadow Brexit Secretary stamping his wellies all over the careful and forensic parliamentary work done by his colleagues.
A General Election that offers us a choice of these two is obviously why tomorrow Farage is to launch the Farage party expecting he will win a majority of 7040 -
Might be helpful if he did something that finally cheesed off the members so that he lost their support and Starmer could take over.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:I know this isn't news, but Corbyn is absolutely bleeding useless.
0 -
Maybe not by Corbyn, but it'll be a corrosive sort of effect denting the vote total by a couple of million for decades.DavidL said:Pulpstar said:
The Tories will at the next GE, they'll be slaughtered.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
By whom? Corbyn? Lol.0 -
Pretty much the only ones who voted against art 50 was the SNP. The remainers lied so they could be re-elected.kle4 said:
Nope. At least some of them never voted to trigger A50 at all, but others have been very sneaky, waiting for the opportunity to reverse Brexit.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.0 -
There was no need to laugh, it is technically true that makes her position slightly better, though still hardly good.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Kenneth Clarke voted against Article 50.DavidL said:
Pretty much the only ones who voted against art 50 was the SNP. The remainers lied so they could be re-elected.0 -
My " ... Ireland bolthole ..."?Richard_Tyndall said:
I think that both we and they are in danger of forgetting the basic situation out in the country. As others have pointed out, for all the back and forth inside the Westminster Bubble, the country is still pretty much evenly split between Leave and Remain. Anything that can (and will) be painted as abandoning Brexit will cause absolute uproar. Now that might be okay for people like Beverly with her Ireland bolthole but the chaos that will follow such a move will bring down a great many of those MPs at the very least and basically undermines any remaining faith that many people had in our democratic system. That is extremely dangerous.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
I agree entirely with Parliament having the final say in thee matters but, just as with going to war, it is one thing to have the power but quite another to be daft enough to exercise it.
I am still here. Unlike some Leavers....0 -
A disorderly exit is likely to have the same results though. Leavers have to understand that May's deal is the hardest Brexit that is actually possible.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think that both we and they are in danger of forgetting the basic situation out in the country. As others have pointed out, for all the back and forth inside the Westminster Bubble, the country is still pretty much evenly split between Leave and Remain. Anything that can (and will) be painted as abandoning Brexit will cause absolute uproar. Now that might be okay for people like Beverly with her Ireland bolthole but the chaos that will follow such a move will bring down a great many of those MPs at the very least and basically undermines any remaining faith that many people had in our democratic system. That is extremely dangerous.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
I agree entirely with Parliament having the final say in thee matters but, just as with going to war, it is one thing to have the power but quite another to be daft enough to exercise it.0 -
If this extraordinary episode was a film in the classic Japanese tradition the final act would involve Cameron committing hara-kiri as the audience cheered.0
-
I keep on meaning to do a thread on that but it turns into quite the magnum opus.kle4 said:
Makes sense. Executing Charles I was like triggering A50 - it satisfied the army/public vote, but those doing it didn't really have a coherent plan for what they would do afterwards, tried a number of extreme and desperate options before stabilising around a system quite a bit like what they had removed, except in name, and then at the end the whole thing was just called off and it was a massive waste of time and lives.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm taking inspiration from the English Civil War.Recidivist said:
That wouldn’t be anything like the one that Robespiere set up would it?TheScreamingEagles said:
It creates a committee of safety to negotiate with a third party.Mortimer said:
I’m looking forward to your explanation of how parliament can negotiate a deal with a third party.Anazina said:
Yes it all rather gives the lie to the piles of steaming garbage that the likes of @Mortimer and @Charles have been serving up on the matter.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even though this all makes Brexit less likely I am pleased with these two results. Any argument about negotiation by Parliament being a bad idea (which might at least have had some measure of validity) was ended once the Deal was agreed. From now on it should be Parliament not the Executive that have the final say on these things.AlastairMeeks said:I'm looking forward to the analysis of today in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty where people earnestly explain that the executive is sovereign on governmental matters.
That said they should also be prepared for the consequences if they betray the electorate.
As an aside I still don't see how they get around the deadline issue. If the Government simply chooses not to bring any further legislation forward, how in practice do Parliament force No Deal off the table?0 -
I can see it happening when Con split. It will be like a reverse of the 1980's.DavidL said:Pulpstar said:
The Tories will at the next GE, they'll be slaughtered.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
By whom? Corbyn? Lol.
0 -
From an absolute kicking to a merely heavy defeat. One more always look on the bright side I guess.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
+1TheScreamingEagles said:
As PB's leading Republican, I'm the man for this occasion.Recidivist said:
Give me a plain russet coated PBer who knows what he posts for and loves what he knows.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm taking inspiration from the English Civil War.Recidivist said:
That wouldn’t be anything like the one that Robespiere set up would it?TheScreamingEagles said:
It creates a committee of safety to negotiate with a third party.Mortimer said:
I’m looking forward to your explanation of how parliament can negotiate a deal with a third party.Anazina said:
Yes it all rather gives the lie to the piles of steaming garbage that the likes of @Mortimer and @Charles have been serving up on the matter.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even though this all makes Brexit less likely I am pleased with these two results. Any argument about negotiation by Parliament being a bad idea (which might at least have had some measure of validity) was ended once the Deal was agreed. From now on it should be Parliament not the Executive that have the final say on these things.AlastairMeeks said:I'm looking forward to the analysis of today in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty where people earnestly explain that the executive is sovereign on governmental matters.
That said they should also be prepared for the consequences if they betray the electorate.
As an aside I still don't see how they get around the deadline issue. If the Government simply chooses not to bring any further legislation forward, how in practice do Parliament force No Deal off the table?0 -
That shows a stunning lack of understanding of the ECW and what it meant. Removing the King established the supremacy of Parliament after all other options (including allowing Charles to remain King but with the real power vested in Parliament) were refused by Charles. It was his arrogance and stubbornness that led to his execution. Most importantly it meant that when Charles II came to the throne he did so on Parliament's terms not his own. To say it was a massive waste of time and lives is ludicrous given it helped establish our modern democracy (after the blip of James II).kle4 said:
Makes sense. Executing Charles I was like triggering A50 - it satisfied the army/public vote, but those doing it didn't really have a coherent plan for what they would do afterwards, tried a number of extreme and desperate options before stabilising around a system quite a bit like what they had removed, except in name, and then at the end the whole thing was just called off and it was a massive waste of time and lives.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm taking inspiration from the English Civil War.Recidivist said:
That wouldn’t be anything like the one that Robespiere set up would it?TheScreamingEagles said:
It creates a committee of safety to negotiate with a third party.Mortimer said:
I’m looking forward to your explanation of how parliament can negotiate a deal with a third party.Anazina said:
Yes it all rather gives the lie to the piles of steaming garbage that the likes of @Mortimer and @Charles have been serving up on the matter.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even though this all makes Brexit less likely I am pleased with these two results. Any argument about negotiation by Parliament being a bad idea (which might at least have had some measure of validity) was ended once the Deal was agreed. From now on it should be Parliament not the Executive that have the final say on these things.AlastairMeeks said:I'm looking forward to the analysis of today in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty where people earnestly explain that the executive is sovereign on governmental matters.
That said they should also be prepared for the consequences if they betray the electorate.
As an aside I still don't see how they get around the deadline issue. If the Government simply chooses not to bring any further legislation forward, how in practice do Parliament force No Deal off the table?0 -
A big difference between remain and brexit ultras in parliament is that the latter at least know they are ultras. Indeed, that is part of why they are so angry all the time.DavidL said:
I honestly wonder if our democracy could survive that. But remainers won’t care. Anything for the cause.Beverley_C said:
The quickest option is a simple bill repealing the EU Withdrawal Act and then send the withdrawal letter to Brussels. A weeki or should do it, certainly a month.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
Needs must when the Devil drives....0 -
And then they had another go 25 years later in a more moderate way, and got it right that timekle4 said:
Makes sense. Executing Charles I was like triggering A50 - it satisfied the army/public vote, but those doing it didn't really have a coherent plan for what they would do afterwards, tried a number of extreme and desperate options before stabilising around a system quite a bit like what they had removed, except in name, and then at the end the whole thing was just called off and it was a massive waste of time and lives.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm taking inspiration from the English Civil War.Recidivist said:
That wouldn’t be anything like the one that Robespiere set up would it?TheScreamingEagles said:
It creates a committee of safety to negotiate with a third party.Mortimer said:
I’m looking forward to your explanation of how parliament can negotiate a deal with a third party.Anazina said:
Yes it all rather gives the lie to the piles of steaming garbage that the likes of @Mortimer and @Charles have been serving up on the matter.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even though this all makes Brexit less likely I am pleased with these two results. Any argument about negotiation by Parliament being a bad idea (which might at least have had some measure of validity) was ended once the Deal was agreed. From now on it should be Parliament not the Executive that have the final say on these things.AlastairMeeks said:I'm looking forward to the analysis of today in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty where people earnestly explain that the executive is sovereign on governmental matters.
That said they should also be prepared for the consequences if they betray the electorate.
As an aside I still don't see how they get around the deadline issue. If the Government simply chooses not to bring any further legislation forward, how in practice do Parliament force No Deal off the table?
0 -
He's tried taking a party from very little to be a political, if not electoral, power.RochdalePioneers said:Its extraordinary. We have an utterly woeful Prime Minister not in control of even her own Cabinet heading for a massive defeat. We also have an utterly woeful Leader of the Opposition in the deep shadow of the Shadow Brexit Secretary stamping his wellies all over the careful and forensic parliamentary work done by his colleagues.
A General Election that offers us a choice of these two is obviously why tomorrow Farage is to launch the Farage party expecting he will win a majority of 704
Perhaps he's thinking of a take over with his friends, the useful idiots in the ERG?0 -
That's unfair. They didn't know that the ERG and fellow travellers were going to trash the only workable form of Brexit actually available. That's also why Richard Tyndall's argument that the referendum result has to be respected to avoid democratic disillusionment on a big scale is no longer compelling: those trashing the deal have ensured we're going to get such disillusionment whether or not the referendum result is respected.DavidL said:
Pretty much the only ones who voted against art 50 was the SNP. The remainers lied so they could be re-elected.kle4 said:
Nope. At least some of them never voted to trigger A50 at all, but others have been very sneaky, waiting for the opportunity to reverse Brexit.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.0 -
I am not talking about agreement on the British side. You need to get both the EU and probably EFTA to agree.HYUFD said:
As long as it includes the customs union it deals with the backstop and as it also includes the single market even the DUP could accept it as their concern is the single market elements Northern Ireland has to comply with but not GB.
In my view it would be much worse than May's Deal with full free movement and permanent Customs Union but still better than No Deal so Parliament will reject May's Deal for a worse deal though it may be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal and much better for the economy than No Deal0 -
It was a joke Richard, I literally wrote two dissertations on the politics of the interregnum so I am well aware of the significance of what occurred (You cannot go back to the way things were, even if you try, after executing a king in the manner that they did). It was meant to be an amusing forced analogy, not literal.Richard_Tyndall said:
That shows a stunning lack of understanding of the ECW and what it meant. Removing the King established the supremacy of Parliament after all other options (including allowing Charles to remain King but with the real power vested in Parliament) were refused by Charles. It was his arrogance and stubbornness that led to his execution. Most importantly it meant that when Charles II came to the throne he did so on Parliament's terms not his own. To say it was a massive waste of time and lives is ludicrous given it helped establish our modern democracy (after the blip of James II).kle4 said:
Makes sense. Executing Chte of time and lives.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm taking inspiration from the English Civil War.Recidivist said:
That wouldn’t be anything like the one that Robespiere set up would it?TheScreamingEagles said:
It creates a committee of safety to negotiate with a third party.Mortimer said:
I’m looking forward to your explanation of how parliament can negotiate a deal with a third party.Anazina said:
Yes it all rather gives the lie to the piles of steaming garbage that the likes of @Mortimer and @Charles have been serving up on the matter.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even though this all makes Brexit less likely I am pleased with these two results. Any argument about negotiation by Parliament being a bad idea (which might at least have had some measure of validity) was ended once the Deal was agreed. From now on it should be Parliament not the Executive that have the final say on these things.AlastairMeeks said:I'm looking forward to the analysis of today in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty where people earnestly explain that the executive is sovereign on governmental matters.
That said they should also be prepared for the consequences if they betray the electorate.
As an aside I still don't see how they get around the deadline issue. If the Government simply chooses not to bring any further legislation forward, how in practice do Parliament force No Deal off the table?0 -
Yeah. Because when the choice is between useless or useless that kind of balances out. Which leads you back to policies. And Labour have the traction there - what policies do the Tories have that aren't Brexit?DavidL said:By whom? Corbyn? Lol.
0 -
A straight Norway deal is by far the best outcome. But again getting to it from here would not be easy.SquareRoot said:
If that's true, why did Norway agree to it..alex. said:0 -
I don’t agree. The ERG are a maximum of 47 loons, possibly less. If remainers had remained true to their word they could have been ignored. As they will be now.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's unfair. They didn't know that the ERG and fellow travellers were going to trash the only workable form of Brexit actually available. That's also why Richard Tyndall's argument that the referendum result has to be respected to avoid democratic disillusionment on a big scale is no longer compelling: those trashing the deal have ensured we're going to get such disillusionment whether or not the referendum result is respected.DavidL said:
Pretty much the only ones who voted against art 50 was the SNP. The remainers lied so they could be re-elected.kle4 said:
Nope. At least some of them never voted to trigger A50 at all, but others have been very sneaky, waiting for the opportunity to reverse Brexit.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.0 -
Apologies. Once again it is hard to tell when people are being serious or not on here.kle4 said:
It was a joke Richard, I literally wrote two dissertations on the politics of the interregnum so I am well aware of the significance of what occurred (You cannot go back to the way things were, even if you try, after executing a king in the manner that they did). It was meant to be an amusing forced analogy, not literal.Richard_Tyndall said:
That shows a stunning lack of understanding of the ECW and what it meant. Removing the King established the supremacy of Parliament after all other options (including allowing Charles to remain King but with the real power vested in Parliament) were refused by Charles. It was his arrogance and stubbornness that led to his execution. Most importantly it meant that when Charles II came to the throne he did so on Parliament's terms not his own. To say it was a massive waste of time and lives is ludicrous given it helped establish our modern democracy (after the blip of James II).kle4 said:
Makes sense. Executing Chte of time and lives.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm taking inspiration from the English Civil War.Recidivist said:
That wouldn’t be anything like the one that Robespiere set up would it?TheScreamingEagles said:
It creates a committee of safety to negotiate with a third party.Mortimer said:
I’m looking forward to your explanation of how parliament can negotiate a deal with a third party.Anazina said:
Yes it all rather gives the lie to the piles of steaming garbage that the likes of @Mortimer and @Charles have been serving up on the matter.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even though this all makes Brexit less likely I am pleased with these two results. Any argument about negotiation by Parliament being a bad idea (which might at least have had some measure of validity) was ended once the Deal was agreed. From now on it should be Parliament not the Executive that have the final say on these things.AlastairMeeks said:I'm looking forward to the analysis of today in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty where people earnestly explain that the executive is sovereign on governmental matters.
That said they should also be prepared for the consequences if they betray the electorate.
As an aside I still don't see how they get around the deadline issue. If the Government simply chooses not to bring any further legislation forward, how in practice do Parliament force No Deal off the table?0 -
They weren't with the country though and they certainly aren't within their own Party... Hence why Con are finished.DavidL said:nico67 said:The ERG nutjobs overplayed their hand . Either back Mays deal or get a softer Brexit or no Brexit .
Too late. There was a moment when that might have worked but they fluffed it. Remainers will not back May’s deal now. And they were always the majority.0 -
Maybe I'm wrong and May is planning to selflessly detonate her own career along with Brexit.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
kle4 said:
A big difference between remain and brexit ultras in parliament is that the latter at least know they are ultras. Indeed, that is part of why they are so angry all the time.DavidL said:
I honestly wonder if our democracy could survive that. But remainers won’t care. Anything for the cause.Beverley_C said:
The quickest option is a simple bill repealing the EU Withdrawal Act and then send the withdrawal letter to Brussels. A weeki or should do it, certainly a month.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
Needs must when the Devil drives....
Well that and being loons. The moon is so enticing!0 -
They knew no deal was a possibility when they triggered. Switching to remain out of horror of no deal is not plausible. They were always going to try for remain, no matter what.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's unfair. They didn't know that the ERG and fellow travellers were going to trash the only workable form of Brexit actually available.DavidL said:
Pretty much the only ones who voted against art 50 was the SNP. The remainers lied so they could be re-elected.kle4 said:
Nope. At least some of them never voted to trigger A50 at all, but others have been very sneaky, waiting for the opportunity to reverse Brexit.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.0 -
I remember an interview with Starmer in 2015 where he was asked about his ambitions - having been the DPP did he see himself in a leadership role again in politics? At the time he said that as a novice to Parliamentary processes and the workings of politics he wanted to learn first and foremost.
Three years on in perhaps the most important Shadow Cabinet role at the moment, with a string of wins under his belt both in the party and in the Commons, he must sit there listening to the boss thinking "I could do so much better"0 -
Geoff Cox is paid very big fees to convince juries to acquit criminals and ne'er-do-wells. Should be an asset for the Brexit gig0
-
Well there are other differences, certainly. But its the extremeness that makes the ultra, not lunacy.DavidL said:kle4 said:
A big difference between remain and brexit ultras in parliament is that the latter at least know they are ultras. Indeed, that is part of why they are so angry all the time.DavidL said:
I honestly wonder if our democracy could survive that. But remainers won’t care. Anything for the cause.Beverley_C said:
The quickest option is a simple bill repealing the EU Withdrawal Act and then send the withdrawal letter to Brussels. A weeki or should do it, certainly a month.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
Needs must when the Devil drives....
Well that and being loons. The moon is so enticing!0 -
Seems more likely that starting again from scratch, which has been much discussed for months, but nothing has emerged.AlastairMeeks said:
A well-informed source has suggested to me that there may be a reverse takeover about to take place of the previously moribund SDP. Patrick O’Flynn may be the scout.NickPalmer said:We should probably be paying attention to Farage at this point too - resigning from UKIP simply has to be the prelude to something else:he's not the type to just go and grow tomatoes.
Makes Blair's new party name choice a tad more difficult though.0 -
47 labour MPs,the SNP 7 LDs and Caroline Lucas voted against Article 50.Plus Kenneth Clarke!0
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Loons + Labour + SNP + LibDems + Plaid + Indies + DUP = Defeat by a substantial margin. There's nothing that sensible Remainers, who wanted the referendum result respected even if they think it was a mistake, can do about that. Therefore the game has changed: it's now looking like Revoke or No Deal. On that choice, any MP with the interests of the country at heart is going to go for Revoke every time, unless they are one of the few dozen who do actually think it's OK to crash out in utter chaos.DavidL said:I don’t agree. The ERG are a maximum of 47 loons, possibly less. If remainers had remained true to their word they could have been ignored. As they will be now.
0 -
You are ignoring the dynamics here. For the vast majority of Leavers the message will not be that the ERG screwed up by trying to push for a hard Brexit but that Parliament decided to ignore the vote and abandoned Brexit. There is nothing nuanced about this. It will be a straight betrayal narrative and at best it will cause disillusionment with the political system for decades. At worst it will cause real civil strife.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's unfair. They didn't know that the ERG and fellow travellers were going to trash the only workable form of Brexit actually available. That's also why Richard Tyndall's argument that the referendum result has to be respected to avoid democratic disillusionment on a big scale is no longer compelling: those trashing the deal have ensured we're going to get such disillusionment whether or not the referendum result is respected.
Parliament will deserve all they get.0 -
That's the internet. I do think there are parallels one could draw with the period, but as with any historical analogy it will require getting creative!Richard_Tyndall said:
Apologies. Once again it is hard to tell when people are being serious or not on here.kle4 said:
It was a joke Richard, I literally wrote two dissertations on the politics of the interregnum so I am well aware of the significance of what occurred (You cannot go back to the way things were, even if you try, after executing a king in the manner that they did). It was meant to be an amusing forced analogy, not literal.Richard_Tyndall said:
That shows a stunning lack of understanding of the ECW and what it meant. Removing the King established the supremacy of Parliament after all other options (including allowing Charles to remain King but with the real power vested in Parliament) were refused by Charles. It was his arrogance and stubbornness that led to his execution. Most importantly it meant that when Charles II came to the throne he did so on Parliament's terms not his own. To say it was a massive waste of time and lives is ludicrous given it helped establish our modern democracy (after the blip of James II).kle4 said:
Makes sense. Executing Chte of time and lives.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm taking inspiration from the English Civil War.Recidivist said:
That wouldn’t be anything like the one that Robespiere set up would it?TheScreamingEagles said:
It creates a committee of safety to negotiate with a third party.Mortimer said:
I’m looking forward to your explanation of how parliament can negotiate a deal with a third party.Anazina said:
Yes it all rather gives the lie to the piles of steaming garbage that the likes of @Mortimer and @Charles have been serving up on the matter.Richard_Tyndall said:
EvenAlastairMeeks said:I'm looking forward to the analysis of today in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty where people earnestly explain that the executive is sovereign on governmental matters.
That saidble?0 -
I agree, but you are ignoring the alternative dynamic: the utter chaos of No Deal. We are not talking mild inconvenience, we are talking about major disruption unparalleled in modern peacetime.Richard_Tyndall said:
You are ignoring the dynamics here. For the vast majority of Leavers the message will not be that the ERG screwed up by trying to push for a hard Brexit but that Parliament decided to ignore the vote and abandoned Brexit. There is nothing nuanced about this. It will be a straight betrayal narrative and at best it will cause disillusionment with the political system for decades. At worst it will cause real civil strife.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's unfair. They didn't know that the ERG and fellow travellers were going to trash the only workable form of Brexit actually available. That's also why Richard Tyndall's argument that the referendum result has to be respected to avoid democratic disillusionment on a big scale is no longer compelling: those trashing the deal have ensured we're going to get such disillusionment whether or not the referendum result is respected.
Parliament will deserve all they get.
I think that you and I agree that the best way forward is to sign up to the deal, but we don't get to decide!0 -
And yet you keep telling us how you really don't care because of your Irish bolthole.Beverley_C said:
My " ... Ireland bolthole ..."?Richard_Tyndall said:
I think that both we and they are in danger of forgetting the basic situation out in the country. As others have pointed out, for all the back and forth inside the Westminster Bubble, the country is still pretty much evenly split between Leave and Remain. Anything that can (and will) be painted as abandoning Brexit will cause absolute uproar. Now that might be okay for people like Beverly with her Ireland bolthole but the chaos that will follow such a move will bring down a great many of those MPs at the very least and basically undermines any remaining faith that many people had in our democratic system. That is extremely dangerous.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
I agree entirely with Parliament having the final say in thee matters but, just as with going to war, it is one thing to have the power but quite another to be daft enough to exercise it.
I am still here. Unlike some Leavers....0 -
I am a reluctant supporter of May's deal. You are preaching to the wrong person.rpjs said:
A disorderly exit is likely to have the same results though. Leavers have to understand that May's deal is the hardest Brexit that is actually possible.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think that both we and they are in danger of forgetting the basic situation out in the country. As others have pointed out, for all the back and forth inside the Westminster Bubble, the country is still pretty much evenly split between Leave and Remain. Anything that can (and will) be painted as abandoning Brexit will cause absolute uproar. Now that might be okay for people like Beverly with her Ireland bolthole but the chaos that will follow such a move will bring down a great many of those MPs at the very least and basically undermines any remaining faith that many people had in our democratic system. That is extremely dangerous.DavidL said:
You really think that the majority in Parliament care about that?Richard_Tyndall said:
How? Even if you want to ignore the political fallout It would require primary legislation. How do you do that whilst May is still in power?Foxy said:
Surely, after todays ruling Parliament could vote to withdraw A50, while we put our thinking caps on.Mortimer said:
Not just refusing, but unable to.RochdalePioneers said:
Indeed. The whole point about the legislature firmly taking control from a floundering and powerless executive is that no government can function as a government if it does not have the support of the House.Mortimer said:Time for an election, methinks.
This Parliament won’t pass the deal, which only the executive can negotiate. A new one is required.
The scenario is there for all to see. Tory MPs voting down every measure proposed by the Tory government. Then voting confidence in the government, sustaining in office a government removed from power by their votes.
So, the government bound to avoid hard Brexit refusing to do so. An election - regardless of what the result may be - would be the ONLY solution. It is increasingly inevitable.
Legislation means we leave on 29th March. Something else needs to be passed to prevent that.
Of course the spanner in the works is that Tory MPs can block an election, too.
And of course it will be (rightly) be painted as reversing the Brexit vote.
I agree entirely with Parliament having the final say in thee matters but, just as with going to war, it is one thing to have the power but quite another to be daft enough to exercise it.0 -
GE 2017 the gift that keeps on giving.Richard_Nabavi said:
Loons + Labour + SNP + LibDems + Plaid + Indies + DUP = Defeat by a substantial margin. There's nothing that sensible Remainers, who wanted the referendum result respected even if they think it was a mistake, can do about that. Therefore the game has changed: it's now looking like Revoke or No Deal. On that choice, any MP with the interests of the country at heart is going to go for Revoke every time, unless they are one of the few dozen who do actually think it's OK to crash out in utter chaos.DavidL said:I don’t agree. The ERG are a maximum of 47 loons, possibly less. If remainers had remained true to their word they could have been ignored. As they will be now.
0 -
I'm on him.
I like him and my close friends and family are starting to notice him.0 -
Given if May's Deal goes down the alternative is BINO SM+CU that could be enough on a second votekle4 said:
There was no need to laugh, it is technically true that makes her position slightly better, though still hardly good.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Clarke's vote is very interesting, particularly as, unlike other remainers, he is backing May's deal. Now, as someone who was openly saying we should not have to follow the referendum and backed that up by not voting to trigger A50, that he is not making a play to remain at this stage even though he surely wants to rejoin the EU, speaks to his character I think.Novo said:47 labour MPs,the SNP 7 LDs and Caroline Lucas voted against Article 50.Plus Kenneth Clarke!
Not that I think every remainer has to vote for a deal they think is bad, but it is impossible to consider at this point that just as some leavers would not back any deal as they want no deal, some remainers appear to be making the same analysis.0 -
I thought Farage and O'Flynn did not get on.AlastairMeeks said:
A well-informed source has suggested to me that there may be a reverse takeover about to take place of the previously moribund SDP. Patrick O’Flynn may be the scout.NickPalmer said:We should probably be paying attention to Farage at this point too - resigning from UKIP simply has to be the prelude to something else:he's not the type to just go and grow tomatoes.
0 -
Yes, it was the most catastrophic election result of my lifetime. The next one is likely to be worse though, albeit likely to give us the grim satisfaction of laughing at Labour trying to negotiate a way through the mess with an even smaller number of MPs.bigjohnowls said:GE 2017 the gift that keeps on giving.
0 -
More likely Boris ultimately ends up Tory leader based on current Tory membership pollsGIN1138 said:
Farage starts a new party, Boris and dozen of Brexiteer Tories leave the Tory Party and join up with Nigel leading to 18 years of Corbyn government with landslides majorities to boot?NickPalmer said:We should probably be paying attention to Farage at this point too - resigning from UKIP simply has to be the prelude to something else:he's not the type to just go and grow tomatoes.
0 -
Two Falls, Two Submissions or a Knockout for leadership of the SDPralphmalph said:
I thought Farage and O'Flynn did not get on.AlastairMeeks said:
A well-informed source has suggested to me that there may be a reverse takeover about to take place of the previously moribund SDP. Patrick O’Flynn may be the scout.NickPalmer said:We should probably be paying attention to Farage at this point too - resigning from UKIP simply has to be the prelude to something else:he's not the type to just go and grow tomatoes.
0 -
Question. What the hell will they have left to debate on Day 5 of this debate?0
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Me? Are you kidding? Hey, I was with you all the time! That was beautiful! Did you say the way they fell into our trap? Ha ha!Bromptonaut said:
You’ve changed your tune. Whatever happened to 52:48, accompanied by the stupid emoticon?Sunil_Prasannan said:No Brexit is better than a Bad Brexit?
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Now that remain is very much a possibility how does May (assuming for the sake of argument she is not gone next week) entice over enough Labour MPs to see it through? She still won't have the DUP and, even optimistically, at least some number of her own MPs. In any scenario she needs mass abstentions or more than a mere handful of Lavour leavers.HYUFD said:
Given if May's Deal goes down the alternative is BINO SM+CU that could be enough on a second votekle4 said:
There was no need to laugh, it is technically true that makes her position slightly better, though still hardly good.TheScreamingEagles said:0
This discussion has been closed.