politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After an historic morning in Brussels the betting remains that

grabcocque said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1066710040441163781

Hmm, why might I suspect politicians, *politicians* mark you, normally those upstanding bastions of truth and decency, might not be being 100% honest?

I WONDER.

Of course, until we call their bluff, we'll not know what the EU's Plan B is.

But PLEEEEEEEEASE, stop asking us to assume politicians are telling the truth. We're not that gullible, and neither are you.

The EU have told us what their plan is, it's called preparing for "No Deal". They're tough negotiators which is why the USA hasn't been able to agree a FTA with them. They don't fold.

grabcocque said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1066710040441163781

Hmm, why might I suspect politicians, *politicians* mark you, normally those upstanding bastions of truth and decency, might not be being 100% honest?

I WONDER.

Of course, until we call their bluff, we'll not know what the EU's Plan B is.

But PLEEEEEEEEASE, stop asking us to assume politicians are telling the truth. We're not that gullible, and neither are you.

Tbf if there was a significant change such as a completely different government, the EU would have to be willing to look at the agreement again (also giving them the chance to retable some demands, of course), provided that there were time. Which increasingly there won't be, without an A50 extension (which might well be granted a new government).

grabcocque said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1066710040441163781

Hmm, why might I suspect politicians, *politicians* mark you, normally those upstanding bastions of truth and decency, might not be being 100% honest?

I WONDER.

Of course, until we call their bluff, we'll not know what the EU's Plan B is.

But PLEEEEEEEEASE, stop asking us to assume politicians are telling the truth. We're not that gullible, and neither are you.

I don't know, but the EU's position since day one has pretty much remained the same as to their red lines. It's pretty sensible to assume their not bluffing - not least because it's very difficult for them to bluff when you need to get the agreement of 27 countries.

Theo said:

SandyRentool said:

Theo said:

grabcocque said:

TBH whilst there's vast buckets of blame to go around on all sides, can I just point out that a never ending cycle of ass covering and blame and counter blame isn't going to get the UK out of the vast swamp of cold doodoo we're all standing shoulder deep in.

At some point, Parliament is going to have to stop the blame game, and come to a settled view on where to go next.

There'll be plenty of time for everyone to blame the entire sorry saga on Theresa May when we're firmly out of the woods.

The time for a plan is BEFORE the vote. We have one with May's deal. Where is Labour's plan? Those are the vast bulk of the people voting it down.

We are the fecking opposition. It isn't our job to ease government proposals through parliament. If May can't keep her own MPs on board that has nothing to do with Labour.

Either blame May for bringing back a crap deal or blame the Tory rebels and their bowler-hatted fellow travellers for not supporting their government. Blaming the opposition is just plain daft.

It is the job of the loyal opposition to do what is right for the country on votes of critical national importance, to prove they are a serious government in waiting. Every MP has a responsibility to vote in a way that is best for his or her constituents. The fact Labour MPs are willing to deliberately crash the economy to hurt the government shows what a bunch of chancers and hacks they are. Take some responsibility for once. If Atlee's Labour had been like this we would still be facing Nazis across the channel.

The ERG brigade on the Tory benches appear to think that we ARE still facing Nazis across the Channel.

Theo said:

SandyRentool said:

CD13 said:

Mr Pulpstar,

It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.

I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.

I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?

Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.

Or, apparently, the wellbeing of the British working class.

In what way is advocating unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union detrimental to the working class?

The EU are known for the clarity of their positions. We knew in advance of the referendum where their red lines were and they haven't moved an inch. They've now negotiated a "deal" and have said the only other thing they are willing to negotiate is how Hard a Brexit we want.

So, this is helpful in two ways. One, it reinforces the hopelessness of May's position. A deal that nobody positively likes, and only a few defend on the grounds of "its better than the consequences of no deal". Two, it demonstrates that the rational, logical position that the UK should take is to rescind A50.

The question was asked below about what politicians means when they say "renegotiate the deal". The answer depends on which politicians. Tory politicians arguing for further negotiation are cretins, deluded zealots still insisting that the EU will fold at the 11th hour because this is BRITAIN. Labour politicians arguing for further negotiations are focused entirely on THEM negotiating as in being the government, and the "negotiation" would be on the wording of the joint communique rescinding A50.

Brexit is done. Finished. Over. Nobody will vote through the May aberration. Nobody will allow us to crash out without a deal. So we remain. As the only option left. Yes of course the political ramifications will initially be high. But at the end of the day the key learning will be that a vast swathe of the political class lied to people for their own narrow interests. Something which will shock nobody...

grabcocque said:

Did somebody say death and chaos?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzZNWqUJuA4

justin124 said:

Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.

Yes, I think they’d be happy to agree a deal more favourable to them.

Theo said:

IanB2 said:

Stark_Dawning said:

MJW said:

GIN1138 said:

Pulpstar said:

Bromptonaut said:

Let’s not forget - without Gina Miller there would be no opportunity for Parliament to reject May’s steaming pile of ordure.

Yet another of the guilty (wo)men that'll history won't look kindly upon when we crash out. There's a reason this sort of power normally rests with the government.

The actions of a lot of Remainers from Tony Blair down have probably made "No Deal" much more likely that it would otherwise have been...

Plus, its rhetoric and her repetition of it had the added side-effect of alienating Tory and potential Tory remain voters who might have given her a majority if they felt the government was offering to allay some of their fears about loss of rights, economic problems etc.

Blair has been peripheral to the whole process, while the reason remainers have become more intransigent is the above - there was no attempt to unite the country, only indulge the fantasists in the ERG - who then inevitably turned round and blamed her when those fantasies collided with reality. Remainers have become more determined the more they believe they stand to lose - which is the problem - she and Brexiteers never tried to win people round to a compromise.

Yes, Theresa's behaviour in that early part of her reign is baffling. Love or hate her, she's clearly a technocrat, and grinding solutions and grubby compromises are her thing. Why she pandered to the wands-and-fairies fantasies of the Leavers and stored all this trouble up for herself is a mystery. Surely it wasn't all about pleasing Dacre and getting a few of his ludicrous Mail headlines.

I suggest she was insecure of her position, having spoken up for Remain in 2016, and saw the principal threat at the time coming from the Wee Smog and his ERG'ers, hence needed to pander to them to buy herself time.

Apparently it is "pandering" to support the obvious interpretation of the Leave vote, including the control of immigration and laws that most nations in the world have.

No, pandering is an activity independent of any particular point of view. It simply means that she was saying things to humour one wing of her party that she never had any intention of following through. As PM she was always going to conclude a real world Brexit and her words of comfort for the fruitcakes in her party were simply to keep them quiet, for a time.

Bromptonaut said:

Let’s not forget - without Gina Miller there would be no opportunity for Parliament to reject May’s steaming pile of ordure.

Without Miller, May would have signed today.

One of the big problems May has is that polemicists, commentators and columnists by and large don't get paid on the basis of advocating compromise.

Theo said:

SandyRentool said:

CD13 said:

Mr Pulpstar,

It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.

I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.

I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?

Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.

Or, apparently, the wellbeing of the British working class.

quite

MarqueeMark said:

Bromptonaut said:

Let’s not forget - without Gina Miller there would be no opportunity for Parliament to reject May’s steaming pile of ordure.

Without Miller, May would have signed today.

Miller has nothing to do with the meaningful vote. The EU Withdrawal Act would have been needed anyway.

SandyRentool said:

Pulpstar said:

SandyRentool said:

Theo said:

SandyRentool said:

CD13 said:

Mr Pulpstar,

It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.

I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.

I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?

Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.

Or, apparently, the wellbeing of the British working class.

In what way is advocating unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union detrimental to the working class?

Just have it in place of the FTA after the transition period of the Withdrawal Agreement ?

You think there will be an 'after'? We're heading for a Hotel California transition period.

Errm Yes - If Corbyn proposes "unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union" then why wouldn't the EU gladly say "Hurrah, Hurrah ! We're out of transition; the backstop is avoided, lets pop open the champers." ?

Obviously I'm oversimplifying here but fundamentally whats wrong with the argument I'm proposing here ?

malcolmg said:

Pulpstar said:

CD13 said:

If the deal fails, the blame (if blame it is) rests with those who voted against. The majority of those will be Labour MPs.

if it results in a No-Deal exit, surely they will accept the blame?

Tory MPs voting against the government, their own party; and the national interest are more to blame. Not that I'm absolving Labour (Or even Uncle Vince) of responsibility, far from it.

Not at all, they at least will be thinking of the country, remember May's mantra "A bad deal is worse than no deal" , what happened to that one.

She was just saying that during the negotiating period to secure the best possible deal. I mean you don't say when someone views your house to sell "We'll knock 20 grand off the price if you ask for it" - same applies here.

HYUFD said:

justin124 said:

Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.

Labour are prepared to cave in further to the EU by accepting a permanent customs union for the UK, so in that sense the only other deal would involve further concessions to the EU which Corbyn would give

The problem with a customs union being...? Which deals are we expecting to sign which have a higher £ value than all of the ones we would be giving up? Specifically?

Pulpstar said:

SandyRentool said:

Pulpstar said:

SandyRentool said:

Theo said:

SandyRentool said:

CD13 said:

Mr Pulpstar,

It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.

I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.

I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?

Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.

Or, apparently, the wellbeing of the British working class.

In what way is advocating unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union detrimental to the working class?

Just have it in place of the FTA after the transition period of the Withdrawal Agreement ?

You think there will be an 'after'? We're heading for a Hotel California transition period.

Errm Yes - If Corbyn proposes "unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union" then why wouldn't the EU gladly say "Hurrah, Hurrah ! We're out of transition; the backstop is avoided, lets pop open the champers." ?

Obviously I'm oversimplifying here but fundamentally whats wrong with the argument I'm proposing here ?

Because Spain will veto because of Gibraltar, or France will veto because of fish, or Cyprus will veto because of military bases, or, or, or...

I just don't see a deal being agreed by all 27.

Mr. Borough, I second that. I'd add that Mr. NorthWales also posts things in a civil and pleasant manner, which is welcome when things can get rather testy here.

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.

Yes, I think they’d be happy to agree a deal more favourable to them.

Well quite. That is the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of Tory and Labour NewDealers. Maybe they are right and the EU really would reopen matters, but what would we be prepared to give in exchange for something additional? Labour at least could argue they would give ground on somethings, whereas the Tory ones are insisting we will get a better deal without conceding anything further as far as I can see it.

Add to that, this 'I don't believe the EU' is a remarkably complacent position to take in these circumstances, it's practically leavery in its assumption of EU willingness to come to us. But more pressingly, such a negotiation could only take place either when Labour take over or the Tories unite behind some new position. Each would take some amount of time, when there is precious little left, so an extension is needed as justin says.

But the extension would be needed up front, given where we are. And if the EU don't know who the Tory leader would be, or for sure that Labour would win a GE, why would they be willing to grant an extension when there would be no certainty of what we would come back with? What if Labour are reliant upon the SNP, which would alter the dynamic from if they had a majority. What if Boris got in, or Hunt, or Raab? Each has quit or stayed in at different moments and would presumably take somewhat different stances.

I'm fine with simply being opposed to the deal, but it is remarkable how complacent MPs are that various contradictory things will happen, in quick time, and which rely upon unanimity which there is no sign of, and full cooperation of the EU.

None of that makes a crap deal less crap, but it does speak to alternatives as trying to sell some milk and honey vision of things.

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1066694680140750848

TheJezziah said:

MJW said:

TheJezziah said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TheJezziah said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Mexicanpete said:

Corbyn is responsible for a lot of things, particularly the brick-by-brick demolition of his own party's electability. Brexit however is a train wreck painted blue!

Reading this thread, I see the 'Remain Media' is now also being fingered.

As the government it would be difficult to blame others anyway but I think Labours tactics have left the Conservatives completely without a Labour bogeyman to believably blame.

If you are right labour and Corbyn will rocket up the polls but I am not holding my breath

In fact the polling over the next two weeks is going to be fascinating

Edit: Presumably those annoyed at the Conservatives from a more centrist remainy politics would more likely go Lib Dem.

This may have been true in the past - although it neglects the opportunity cost of being seen to be right in advance rather than opportunistic - and the Lib Dems' woes are not tied to their Brexit stance. But it's a strategy that had a time limit that has now expired and politicians have to face reality rather than their own fantasies.

The Conservatives leading us to no deal and the bad things that would cause would encourage Labour voters rather than put them off.

This firstly assumes no deal - if no deal happens and is half as bad as the warnings I genuinely think all bets are off. Turmoil on that scale would likely sweep away both party leaders, if not the parties themselves. It would be a failure so great that I don't think Corbyn-Labour could escape it - he'd be Lansbury to May's Chamberlain. Especially given the repeated warnings he and his team have had to come up with something to stop disaster - and happily sat by and watched.

Which brings me as to why the Lib Dem comparison does work in still the most likely scenario - the Tories get a deal through that no one's that happy with and is ultimately harmful as any Brexit will be but it stops carnage and gets us out. Your point would be true if the Conservatives had a rebellion proof majority - Labour could do nothing that wasn't rhetorical. They'd own it - and Labour could make hay saying as they are now, we'd have done it better, even if that is untrue. But they don't. There's probably a majority in the HoC for something like EEA/EFTA now and likely going to be one for a People's Vote if Maty's deal is voted down next month. Corbyn would be the man who'd failed his voters when he could have acted, but chose not to, either through expediency or due to ideology.

Either way, if Theresa May and Cameron are the parents of Brexit, he'd be its midwife.

RochdalePioneers said:

The EU are known for the clarity of their positions. We knew in advance of the referendum where their red lines were and they haven't moved an inch. They've now negotiated a "deal" and have said the only other thing they are willing to negotiate is how Hard a Brexit we want.

So, this is helpful in two ways. One, it reinforces the hopelessness of May's position. A deal that nobody positively likes, and only a few defend on the grounds of "its better than the consequences of no deal". Two, it demonstrates that the rational, logical position that the UK should take is to rescind A50.

The question was asked below about what politicians means when they say "renegotiate the deal". The answer depends on which politicians. Tory politicians arguing for further negotiation are cretins, deluded zealots still insisting that the EU will fold at the 11th hour because this is BRITAIN. Labour politicians arguing for further negotiations are focused entirely on THEM negotiating as in being the government, and the "negotiation" would be on the wording of the joint communique rescinding A50.

Brexit is done. Finished. Over. Nobody will vote through the May aberration. Nobody will allow us to crash out without a deal. So we remain. As the only option left. Yes of course the political ramifications will initially be high. But at the end of the day the key learning will be that a vast swathe of the political class lied to people for their own narrow interests. Something which will shock nobody...

I agree we will probably remain now, but Labour's position is not that they are only going to negotiate purely to agree that, and if you think it is that is not a good thing as it would mean that they are openly lying about their position, which is not a good thing even if done for peoples' own good, because at some point the people doing it will misjudge if it is for peoples' own good. You don't fight lies with more lies, you fight it with the truth. I expect Labour to come out for remain at some point in the chaos after May's deal is done, and if they fail to get a GE.

rottenborough said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I am finding it very difficult to keep up with the threads and I am sure I am not alone

My wife and I have just watched on TV The Railway Children from the Kings Cross Theatre and it was wonderful.

I will keep up with the threads as much as I can but there is another life out there. Just had a sleepover with 3 (5, 7 and 9) of our 4 grandchildren and at the ages of 75 and 79 it was challenging but we survived, so I am confident we will survive brexit

I may not post as frequently but I know the debate will rage on for a long time to come

All the best to all posters from all sides of the argument and none.

Try to keep it civil - it enhances your argument

Please post when you can Big_G. Your comments are always worth reading and thoughtful.

Thank you and I will

Theo said:

She has delivered on 90% of what she said, with just a couple of compromises affecting less than a fifth of our economy.

It's all smoke and mirrors. Until there is a final trade deal you can't assert anything about what she's delivered. So far all this deal achieves is to put us in a weaker position in an orderly manner. Hardly something to celebrate.

Brexit is like keying your own car.

But big shout out to the ERG who thanks to their brilliance might see the UK rejoin the EU replete with the Euro.

PS - Is it possible to key your own car these days? My keys aren't really keys but fobs.

CarlottaVance said:

grabcocque said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1066710040441163781

Of course, until we call their bluff, we'll not know what the EU's Plan B is.

https://twitter.com/ReutersUK/status/1066738336944046081

HYUFD said:

justin124 said:

Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.

the only other deal would involve further concessions to the EU which Corbyn would give

Until someone explains to him in words of one syllable the EU's State Aid rules.

I can't for the life of me think why they haven't done this already....

He will have to cave if he wants to become PM as he needs Labour Remainer and SNP support

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

justin124 said:

Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.

Labour are prepared to cave in further to the EU by accepting a permanent customs union for the UK, so in that sense the only other deal would involve further concessions to the EU which Corbyn would give

The problem with a customs union being...? Which deals are we expecting to sign which have a higher £ value than all of the ones we would be giving up? Specifically?

I have no great problem with staying in the customs union but it would certainly be a further cave in the view of Brexiteers

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Brexit is like keying your own car.

But big shout out to the ERG who thanks to their brilliance might see the UK rejoin the EU replete with the Euro.

PS - Is it possible to key your own car these days? My keys aren't really keys but fobs.

What do you use to get into your house?

There are so many jokes could be made there...

kle4 said:

RochdalePioneers said:

The EU are known for the clarity of their positions. We knew in advance of the referendum where their red lines were and they haven't moved an inch. They've now negotiated a "deal" and have said the only other thing they are willing to negotiate is how Hard a Brexit we want.

So, this is helpful in two ways. One, it reinforces the hopelessness of May's position. A deal that nobody positively likes, and only a few defend on the grounds of "its better than the consequences of no deal". Two, it demonstrates that the rational, logical position that the UK should take is to rescind A50.

The question was asked below about what politicians means when they say "renegotiate the deal". The answer depends on which politicians. Tory politicians arguing for further negotiation are cretins, deluded zealots still insisting that the EU will fold at the 11th hour because this is BRITAIN. Labour politicians arguing for further negotiations are focused entirely on THEM negotiating as in being the government, and the "negotiation" would be on the wording of the joint communique rescinding A50.

Brexit is done. Finished. Over. Nobody will vote through the May aberration. Nobody will allow us to crash out without a deal. So we remain. As the only option left. Yes of course the political ramifications will initially be high. But at the end of the day the key learning will be that a vast swathe of the political class lied to people for their own narrow interests. Something which will shock nobody...

I agree we will probably remain now, but Labour's position is not that they are only going to negotiate purely to agree that, and if you think it is that is not a good thing as it would mean that they are openly lying about their position, which is not a good thing even if done for peoples' own good, because at some point the people doing it will misjudge if it is for peoples' own good. You don't fight lies with more lies, you fight it with the truth. I expect Labour to come out for remain at some point in the chaos after May's deal is done, and if they fail to get a GE.

One of the more honest MPs appears to have been Ken Clarke. He voted against A50.

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations

If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.

The £ in my pocket would be worth 25% more if we'd joined in 1999.

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Brexit is like keying your own car.

But big shout out to the ERG who thanks to their brilliance might see the UK rejoin the EU replete with the Euro.

PS - Is it possible to key your own car these days? My keys aren't really keys but fobs.

What do you use to get into your house?

A doorman?

Theo said:

williamglenn said:

Theo said:

She has delivered on 90% of what she said, with just a couple of compromises affecting less than a fifth of our economy.

It's all smoke and mirrors. Until there is a final trade deal you can't assert anything about what she's delivered. So far all this deal achieves is to put us in a weaker position in an orderly manner. Hardly something to celebrate.

This is your usual rubbish. You can't actually back up your arguments with details of the deal so you just throw around terms like "smoke and mirrors" and "BINO", hoping that by posting ten times more than anyone else you won't get challenged on all your lies. This deal removes the ability for the EU to close the border, taking away their biggest threat off the table. That strengthens our leverage, not theirs.

The backstop does not leave GB in the single market and does mean there would be some trade barriers unless the future relationship upgrades the level of access. It’s not only about customs, as the EU/Turkey border demonstrates.

Mr. kle4, if we do end up remaining the challenge the parties face will be cooling the political temperature, and the handling the situation when, inevitably, more integration occurs.

Mr. Glenn, one simply has the drawbridge lowered and portcullis raised.

Anyway, time for me to be off.

If you missed it, and even if not, my final post-race ramble of the year is here: http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/11/abu-dhabi-post-race-analysis-2018.html

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations

If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.

I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro

If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.

If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.

Theo said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Scott_P said:

Brexiteer: Brexit will be great!
Remainer: It's a bad idea.

Brexiteer: Brexit will be fine!
Remainer: It's a bad idea.

Brexiteer: Brexit will be not as bad as war.
Remainer: It's a bad idea.

Brexiteer: Brexit will be not as bad as famine.
Remainer: It's a bad idea.

Brexiteer: Hey, Brexit is really bad!
Remainer: It's a bad idea.

Brexiteer: It's those fucking Remainers' fault...

I dunno about it being Remain's fault, but you do have to admit that the remainers in government have never really put their back into it, so it's no surprise we have ended up where we are. Cockup or conspiracy, who knows. but the end result will be the same. I reckon we'll stay in now but the country is fucked. At least we have the comfort of knowing the Tories are royally fucked for a few years as well. Every cloud.

If the Government says "here is a deal for Brexit" and Remainers turn around and vote it down, that isn't Brexit failing. That is Remainers deliberately sabotaging both Brexit and the economy to get their beloved EU. They should rightly get blamed for it.

Last time I checked there wasn't a 'Remainer' party - well the Lib Dems and the SNP, but the former are too small to save May's deal from any Brexiteer rebellion and the latter have their own priorities. Labour, in case you hadn't noticed, is led by someone who is more than sympathetic to Brexit, but is also determined to play politics with it to get into power (it may work, I don't think it will, see below) and so will whip his MPs against. Given the thuggish cost of disloyalty to the Dear Leader (even when he's incoherent) in today's Labour Party, you can hardly expect MPs to put a target on their backs for something they don't believe in.

Nope. This is on Brexiteers for being like communists and supporting a fantasy then when it turns to crap claiming no one has ever tried it properly.

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations

If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.

I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro

If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.

If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.

No, why should we? We would be associate semi members along with Poland, Sweden and Denmark as Macron has suggested and as we should have agreed all along before the EU referendum.

My wife and I have must received personal e mails from Theresa endorsing her deal

There is no doubt she is on a mission to talk to the people

Interesting Sky's report from a fun run was very encouraging for her

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations

If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.

I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro

If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.

If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.

I would hesitate before referring to the euro as a benefit. As would Varafoukis...

ydoethur said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations

If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.

I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro

If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.

If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.

I would hesitate before referring to the euro as a benefit. As would Varafoukis...

Greece shouldn't have been allowed to join in the first place. A Brussels fudge that cost them dear.

Bromptonaut said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

My wife and I have must received personal e mails from Theresa endorsing her deal

There is no doubt she is on a mission to talk to the people

Interesting Sky's report from a fun run was very encouraging for her

Do the people at the fun run get a vote?

Judging by their reaction the deal would win

SandyRentool said:

ydoethur said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations

If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.

I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro

If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.

If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.

I would hesitate before referring to the euro as a benefit. As would Varafoukis...

Greece shouldn't have been allowed to join in the first place. A Brussels fudge that cost them dear.

We would have made Greece or Ireland look like a picnic had we joined. Yet we would undoubtedly have been allowed to had we wished to.

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

SandyRentool said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations

If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.

I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro

If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.

If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.

No, why should we? We would be associate semi members along with Poland, Sweden and Denmark as Macron has suggested and as we should have agreed all along before the EU referendum.

So you enjoy standing in a queue at Passport Control and paying commission on your travel money?

Why not give us plebs the benefits of membership?

You are normally pretty fast through if you are in the EU/EEA queue in my experience even if you have to flash you passport.

The 20% unemployed in Eurozone Greece or the 16% unemployed in Eurozone Spain or the 11% unemployed in Eurozone Italy may argue with you about the benefits the plebs get from Euro membership