It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.
I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.
I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?
Hmm, why might I suspect politicians, *politicians* mark you, normally those upstanding bastions of truth and decency, might not be being 100% honest?
I WONDER.
Of course, until we call their bluff, we'll not know what the EU's Plan B is.
But PLEEEEEEEEASE, stop asking us to assume politicians are telling the truth. We're not that gullible, and neither are you.
The EU have told us what their plan is, it's called preparing for "No Deal". They're tough negotiators which is why the USA hasn't been able to agree a FTA with them. They don't fold.
TBH whilst there's vast buckets of blame to go around on all sides, can I just point out that a never ending cycle of ass covering and blame and counter blame isn't going to get the UK out of the vast swamp of cold doodoo we're all standing shoulder deep in.
At some point, Parliament is going to have to stop the blame game, and come to a settled view on where to go next.
There'll be plenty of time for everyone to blame the entire sorry saga on Theresa May when we're firmly out of the woods.
I agree with you but I doubt TM will receive blame from everyone. She has tried to square a circle in the most difficult of circunstances and that will be respected, but of course her opponents will attack her, that is politics
Her opponents as opposed to her what?
The latest "gang of five": Philip Hammond, David Lidington, Amber Rudd, Greg Clark, David Gauke. The ERGers: Sajid Javid, David Gauke (again), Liam Fox, Michael Gove, Brandon Lewis, Chris Grayling, Penny Mordaunt, Andrea Leadsom.
That's the majority of her cabinet. Then there's the DUP. Vociferously supporting her there are...er...
Jeremy Hunt, Rory the Tory and me xD
To be clear, what I heard on Marr was a long way from what I would call enthusiastic support for May's deal from Hunt.
Hmm, why might I suspect politicians, *politicians* mark you, normally those upstanding bastions of truth and decency, might not be being 100% honest?
I WONDER.
Of course, until we call their bluff, we'll not know what the EU's Plan B is.
But PLEEEEEEEEASE, stop asking us to assume politicians are telling the truth. We're not that gullible, and neither are you.
Tbf if there was a significant change such as a completely different government, the EU would have to be willing to look at the agreement again (also giving them the chance to retable some demands, of course), provided that there were time. Which increasingly there won't be, without an A50 extension (which might well be granted a new government).
» show previous quotes Saying they would like to change it whilst knowing that is impossible is dishonest.
Rubbish Richard, from inside they would try to change it, it would be difficult but not impossible , that is honest. Different from Tories blatantly lying that they have not sold Scottish fishermen down the Swanee.
Nope. There is absolutely no chance that Scotland would be able to make any significant changes to the CFP from the inside. It is a pipe dream. What you really need is independence from both the UK and the EU.
Richard , a pipe dream is still better than lying toerags. You may be right re being out of EU , I am neither for or against it , but it would for sure be far better than being a vassal state of the UK and getting treated like crap.
Hmm, why might I suspect politicians, *politicians* mark you, normally those upstanding bastions of truth and decency, might not be being 100% honest?
I WONDER.
Of course, until we call their bluff, we'll not know what the EU's Plan B is.
But PLEEEEEEEEASE, stop asking us to assume politicians are telling the truth. We're not that gullible, and neither are you.
The EU have told us what their plan is, it's called preparing for "No Deal". They're tough negotiators which is why the USA hasn't been able to agree a FTA with them. They don't fold.
I can't wait to see the look on Leo Varadkar's face when they order him to start building that EU border fence.
TBH whilst there's vast buckets of blame to go around on all sides, can I just point out that a never ending cycle of ass covering and blame and counter blame isn't going to get the UK out of the vast swamp of cold doodoo we're all standing shoulder deep in.
At some point, Parliament is going to have to stop the blame game, and come to a settled view on where to go next.
There'll be plenty of time for everyone to blame the entire sorry saga on Theresa May when we're firmly out of the woods.
The time for a plan is BEFORE the vote. We have one with May's deal. Where is Labour's plan? Those are the vast bulk of the people voting it down.
We are the fecking opposition. It isn't our job to ease government proposals through parliament. If May can't keep her own MPs on board that has nothing to do with Labour.
Either blame May for bringing back a crap deal or blame the Tory rebels and their bowler-hatted fellow travellers for not supporting their government. Blaming the opposition is just plain daft.
It is the job of the loyal opposition to do what is right for the country on votes of critical national importance, to prove they are a serious government in waiting. Every MP has a responsibility to vote in a way that is best for his or her constituents. The fact Labour MPs are willing to deliberately crash the economy to hurt the government shows what a bunch of chancers and hacks they are. Take some responsibility for once. If Atlee's Labour had been like this we would still be facing Nazis across the channel.
Hmm, why might I suspect politicians, *politicians* mark you, normally those upstanding bastions of truth and decency, might not be being 100% honest?
I WONDER.
Of course, until we call their bluff, we'll not know what the EU's Plan B is.
But PLEEEEEEEEASE, stop asking us to assume politicians are telling the truth. We're not that gullible, and neither are you.
I don't know, but the EU's position since day one has pretty much remained the same as to their red lines. It's pretty sensible to assume their not bluffing - not least because it's very difficult for them to bluff when you need to get the agreement of 27 countries.
TBH whilst there's vast buckets of blame to go around on all sides, can I just point out that a never ending cycle of ass covering and blame and counter blame isn't going to get the UK out of the vast swamp of cold doodoo we're all standing shoulder deep in.
At some point, Parliament is going to have to stop the blame game, and come to a settled view on where to go next.
There'll be plenty of time for everyone to blame the entire sorry saga on Theresa May when we're firmly out of the woods.
I agree with you but I doubt TM will receive blame from everyone. She has tried to square a circle in the most difficult of circunstances and that will be respected, but of course her opponents will attack her, that is politics
Her opponents as opposed to her what?
The latest "gang of five": Philip Hammond, David Lidington, Amber Rudd, Greg Clark, David Gauke. The ERGers: Sajid Javid, David Gauke (again), Liam Fox, Michael Gove, Brandon Lewis, Chris Grayling, Penny Mordaunt, Andrea Leadsom.
That's the majority of her cabinet. Then there's the DUP. Vociferously supporting her there are...er...
Jeremy Hunt, Rory the Tory and me xD
To be clear, what I heard on Marr was a long way from what I would call enthusiastic support for May's deal from Hunt.
TBH whilst there's vast buckets of blame to go around on all sides, can I just point out that a never ending cycle of ass covering and blame and counter blame isn't going to get the UK out of the vast swamp of cold doodoo we're all standing shoulder deep in.
At some point, Parliament is going to have to stop the blame game, and come to a settled view on where to go next.
There'll be plenty of time for everyone to blame the entire sorry saga on Theresa May when we're firmly out of the woods.
I agree with you but I doubt TM will receive blame from everyone. She has tried to square a circle in the most difficult of circunstances and that will be respected, but of course her opponents will attack her, that is politics
Her opponents as opposed to her what?
The latest "gang of five": Philip Hammond, David Lidington, Amber Rudd, Greg Clark, David Gauke. The ERGers: Sajid Javid, David Gauke (again), Liam Fox, Michael Gove, Brandon Lewis, Chris Grayling, Penny Mordaunt, Andrea Leadsom.
That's the majority of her cabinet. Then there's the DUP. Vociferously supporting her there are...er...
Jeremy Hunt, Rory the Tory and me xD
To be clear, what I heard on Marr was a long way from what I would call enthusiastic support for May's deal from Hunt.
Meanwhile, on Marr, Hunt's support was thoroughly equivocal. Hunt is not a believer, he never made it past "it's not that bad considering" and hoping it will give us a "jumping off point" to continue to fuck up negotiations for many years to come.
It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.
I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.
I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?
Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.
TBH whilst there's vast buckets of blame to go around on all sides, can I just point out that a never ending cycle of ass covering and blame and counter blame isn't going to get the UK out of the vast swamp of cold doodoo we're all standing shoulder deep in.
At some point, Parliament is going to have to stop the blame game, and come to a settled view on where to go next.
There'll be plenty of time for everyone to blame the entire sorry saga on Theresa May when we're firmly out of the woods.
I agree with you but I doubt TM will receive blame from everyone. She has tried to square a circle in the most difficult of circunstances and that will be respected, but of course her opponents will attack her, that is politics
Her opponents as opposed to her what?
The latest "gang of five": Philip Hammond, David Lidington, Amber Rudd, Greg Clark, David Gauke. The ERGers: Sajid Javid, David Gauke (again), Liam Fox, Michael Gove, Brandon Lewis, Chris Grayling, Penny Mordaunt, Andrea Leadsom.
That's the majority of her cabinet. Then there's the DUP. Vociferously supporting her there are...er...
Jeremy Hunt, Rory the Tory and me xD
To be clear, what I heard on Marr was a long way from what I would call enthusiastic support for May's deal from Hunt.
You know, considering how many times May tried and failed to stab him in the front, Hammond has been her most consistently not-especially-disloyal minister.
He's too good for her and she does not deserve him.
It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.
I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.
I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?
Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.
Or, apparently, the wellbeing of the British working class.
TBH whilst there's vast buckets of blame to go around on all sides, can I just point out that a never ending cycle of ass covering and blame and counter blame isn't going to get the UK out of the vast swamp of cold doodoo we're all standing shoulder deep in.
At some point, Parliament is going to have to stop the blame game, and come to a settled view on where to go next.
There'll be plenty of time for everyone to blame the entire sorry saga on Theresa May when we're firmly out of the woods.
The time for a plan is BEFORE the vote. We have one with May's deal. Where is Labour's plan? Those are the vast bulk of the people voting it down.
We are the fecking opposition. It isn't our job to ease government proposals through parliament. If May can't keep her own MPs on board that has nothing to do with Labour.
Either blame May for bringing back a crap deal or blame the Tory rebels and their bowler-hatted fellow travellers for not supporting their government. Blaming the opposition is just plain daft.
It is the job of the loyal opposition to do what is right for the country on votes of critical national importance, to prove they are a serious government in waiting. Every MP has a responsibility to vote in a way that is best for his or her constituents. The fact Labour MPs are willing to deliberately crash the economy to hurt the government shows what a bunch of chancers and hacks they are. Take some responsibility for once. If Atlee's Labour had been like this we would still be facing Nazis across the channel.
The ERG brigade on the Tory benches appear to think that we ARE still facing Nazis across the Channel.
TBH whilst there's vast buckets of blame to go around on all sides, can I just point out that a never ending cycle of ass covering and blame and counter blame isn't going to get the UK out of the vast swamp of cold doodoo we're all standing shoulder deep in.
At some point, Parliament is going to have to stop the blame game, and come to a settled view on where to go next.
There'll be plenty of time for everyone to blame the entire sorry saga on Theresa May when we're firmly out of the woods.
The time for a plan is BEFORE the vote. We have one with May's deal. Where is Labour's plan? Those are the vast bulk of the people voting it down.
We are the fecking opposition. It isn't our job to ease government proposals through parliament. If May can't keep her own MPs on board that has nothing to do with Labour.
Either blame May for bringing back a crap deal or blame the Tory rebels and their bowler-hatted fellow travellers for not supporting their government. Blaming the opposition is just plain daft.
It is the job of the loyal opposition to do what is right for the country on votes of critical national importance, to prove they are a serious government in waiting. Every MP has a responsibility to vote in a way that is best for his or her constituents. The fact Labour MPs are willing to deliberately crash the economy to hurt the government shows what a bunch of chancers and hacks they are. Take some responsibility for once. If Atlee's Labour had been like this we would still be facing Nazis across the channel.
Lol. Then as now the political problem was the masses of MPs within the Tory Party blind to the national interest.
It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.
I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.
I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?
Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.
Or, apparently, the wellbeing of the British working class.
In what way is advocating unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union detrimental to the working class?
Corbyn is responsible for a lot of things, particularly the brick-by-brick demolition of his own party's electability. Brexit however is a train wreck painted blue!
Reading this thread, I see the 'Remain Media' is now also being fingered.
As the government it would be difficult to blame others anyway but I think Labours tactics have left the Conservatives completely without a Labour bogeyman to believably blame.
If you are right labour and Corbyn will rocket up the polls but I am not holding my breath
In fact the polling over the next two weeks is going to be fascinating
Edit: Presumably those annoyed at the Conservatives from a more centrist remainy politics would more likely go Lib Dem.
This may have been true in the past - although it neglects the opportunity cost of being seen to be right in advance rather than opportunistic - and the Lib Dems' woes are not tied to their Brexit stance. But it's a strategy that had a time limit that has now expired and politicians have to face reality rather than their own fantasies.
The Conservatives may get and deserve more of the 'blame' for a bad Brexit - but it is less likely to hit them in the polls. Why? Well, we can look at tuition fees and the Lib Dems. They were arguably least to blame for them being raised. Labour commissioned the review that suggested it. The Tories demanded it be implemented. But it cost the Lib Dems. Why? Because their voters overwhelmingly opposed it. So going along with it with a heavy heart just wasn't good enough.
Now, to Brexit, excepting an apocalyptic no deal (in which case all bets are off, and all leaders/parties, not to mention the country are probably in deep trouble) - the Tories may be 'blamed' for doing something unpleasant and detrimental to us all, but they can at least say they did what their voters wanted. Labour will have gone along with something their voters overwhelmingly (and more so now a people's vote is a policy option the leadership could support) hated. So they're much more vulnerable to voters feeling betrayed and looking elsewhere.
Labour will be working against the government not backing it, your logic would be similar to the Lib Dems suffering electorally because their membership was against the Iraq war but the Labour government still carried it out.
The Conservatives leading us to no deal and the bad things that would cause would encourage Labour voters rather than put them off.
The EU are known for the clarity of their positions. We knew in advance of the referendum where their red lines were and they haven't moved an inch. They've now negotiated a "deal" and have said the only other thing they are willing to negotiate is how Hard a Brexit we want.
So, this is helpful in two ways. One, it reinforces the hopelessness of May's position. A deal that nobody positively likes, and only a few defend on the grounds of "its better than the consequences of no deal". Two, it demonstrates that the rational, logical position that the UK should take is to rescind A50.
The question was asked below about what politicians means when they say "renegotiate the deal". The answer depends on which politicians. Tory politicians arguing for further negotiation are cretins, deluded zealots still insisting that the EU will fold at the 11th hour because this is BRITAIN. Labour politicians arguing for further negotiations are focused entirely on THEM negotiating as in being the government, and the "negotiation" would be on the wording of the joint communique rescinding A50.
Brexit is done. Finished. Over. Nobody will vote through the May aberration. Nobody will allow us to crash out without a deal. So we remain. As the only option left. Yes of course the political ramifications will initially be high. But at the end of the day the key learning will be that a vast swathe of the political class lied to people for their own narrow interests. Something which will shock nobody...
It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.
I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.
I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?
Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.
Or, apparently, the wellbeing of the British working class.
In what way is advocating unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union detrimental to the working class?
Just have it in place of the FTA after the transition period of the Withdrawal Agreement ?
Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.
(1) May's deal. A sort of kick most of it into the long grass and await developments.
(2) Labour's tactics. Blame May for everything. Those cuddly Eurocrats could have been brought round if only Labour could have been in charge.
(3) ERG deal, threaten No-Deal and mean it.
Hmm … problem with number one is there's no guarantees, problem with number two is it's nakedly political and bollocks, problem with number three is it probably means No-Deal.
Number one means trusting TM. Number two means trusting Labour who have no interest in a successful Brexit, and number three means trusting in a No-Deal.
I suspect NOTA would win. However re-running the referendum means giving up on meaningful democracy from now on with no acceptance of the result anyway (whichever way it goes).
Friday morning going slow I'm watching the election show Lots of Ladbrokes slips on the floor Memories of the night before Out knocking up and having fun Now I've stopped reading The Sun Waiting for the results to show But why I voted no one knows
Voting, polling Blogging, trolling And now I'm all alone In Brexit Land My only home
I think it's time to write a thread To vent the bemusement in my head Spent my money on online bookies Got nowt here but all the cookies Clean my suit and my rosette Election promises to forget Start campaigning all over again Kid myself I'm having fun
Voting, polling Blogging, trolling And now I'm all alone In Brexit Land My only home
Looking out from my worldview I've really nothing else to do Seems like I have started fretting Let's read Political Betting Forget The Mirror and The Times The battle bus with such great lines Look around and I can see A thousand punters just like me
Voting, polling Blogging, trolling And now I'm all alone In Brexit Land My only home
Voting, polling Blogging, trolling And now I'm all alone In Brexit Land My only home
Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.
Yes, I think they’d be happy to agree a deal more favourable to them.
Let’s not forget - without Gina Miller there would be no opportunity for Parliament to reject May’s steaming pile of ordure.
Yet another of the guilty (wo)men that'll history won't look kindly upon when we crash out. There's a reason this sort of power normally rests with the government.
The actions of a lot of Remainers from Tony Blair down have probably made "No Deal" much more likely that it would otherwise have been...
Plus, its rhetoric and her repetition of it had the added side-effect of alienating Tory and potential Tory remain voters who might have given her a majority if they felt the government was offering to allay some of their fears about loss of rights, economic problems etc.
Blair has been peripheral to the whole process, while the reason remainers have become more intransigent is the above - there was no attempt to unite the country, only indulge the fantasists in the ERG - who then inevitably turned round and blamed her when those fantasies collided with reality. Remainers have become more determined the more they believe they stand to lose - which is the problem - she and Brexiteers never tried to win people round to a compromise.
Yes, Theresa's behaviour in that early part of her reign is baffling. Love or hate her, she's clearly a technocrat, and grinding solutions and grubby compromises are her thing. Why she pandered to the wands-and-fairies fantasies of the Leavers and stored all this trouble up for herself is a mystery. Surely it wasn't all about pleasing Dacre and getting a few of his ludicrous Mail headlines.
I suggest she was insecure of her position, having spoken up for Remain in 2016, and saw the principal threat at the time coming from the Wee Smog and his ERG'ers, hence needed to pander to them to buy herself time.
Apparently it is "pandering" to support the obvious interpretation of the Leave vote, including the control of immigration and laws that most nations in the world have.
No, pandering is an activity independent of any particular point of view. It simply means that she was saying things to humour one wing of her party that she never had any intention of following through. As PM she was always going to conclude a real world Brexit and her words of comfort for the fruitcakes in her party were simply to keep them quiet, for a time.
Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.
Labour are prepared to cave in further to the EU by accepting a permanent customs union for the UK, so in that sense the only other deal would involve further concessions to the EU which Corbyn would give
It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.
I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.
I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?
Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.
Or, apparently, the wellbeing of the British working class.
In what way is advocating unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union detrimental to the working class?
Just have it in place of the FTA after the transition period of the Withdrawal Agreement ?
You think there will be an 'after'? We're heading for a Hotel California transition period.
I am finding it very difficult to keep up with the threads and I am sure I am not alone
My wife and I have just watched on TV The Railway Children from the Kings Cross Theatre and it was wonderful.
I will keep up with the threads as much as I can but there is another life out there. Just had a sleepover with 3 (5, 7 and 9) of our 4 grandchildren and at the ages of 75 and 79 it was challenging but we survived, so I am confident we will survive brexit
I may not post as frequently but I know the debate will rage on for a long time to come
All the best to all posters from all sides of the argument and none.
It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.
I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.
I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?
Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.
Or, apparently, the wellbeing of the British working class.
If the deal fails, the blame (if blame it is) rests with those who voted against. The majority of those will be Labour MPs.
if it results in a No-Deal exit, surely they will accept the blame?
Tory MPs voting against the government, their own party; and the national interest are more to blame. Not that I'm absolving Labour (Or even Uncle Vince) of responsibility, far from it.
Not at all, they at least will be thinking of the country, remember May's mantra "A bad deal is worse than no deal" , what happened to that one.
So I expect on December 12th we are going to be in interesting times...
Sounds like Corbyn would be open to an arrangement with Theresa May providing she made some commitment to a high integration end state.
I think "a permanent customs union with a UK say" gives the lie to that. He doesn't want his tests to be passable under any circumstances.
There won't be a meaningful say without membership of the EU. That's a given. The question is what Corbyn is prepared to sign up to. This hints he is prepared to sign up or abstain if May commits to Norway+ in my opinion. May will hate that because she's a very partisan politician. But it gives her a potential out.
In the end it may come down to whether May, and the Conservative party more broadly, prefer an undisguised BINO stitch up or a second referendum. I think they'd prefer the latter.
It's a funny "name only" Brexit that returns control over immigration, makes British courts sovereign and reduces membership fees by billions.
You are Rory Stewart and I claim my £5!
Rory Stewart, as a former provincial governor, is one of the few MPs who has actually experienced the realities of power. It is not surprising he is arguing for this deal, given his firm grasp of how things work in practice. Especially when compared to the charlatans and hacks in the Labour Party.
bollox, he is a useless chancer, he may have controlled two camels, a goat and some sand dunes for a few months, but name anything of note the duffer has ever done or said. Numpty extrodinaire.
Why am I not surprised to see racism about Middle Easterners on this website?
What are you talking about you cretinous half witted moron. You are so thick you did not even manage to make out that there were no people involved in my post.
It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.
I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.
I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?
Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.
Or, apparently, the wellbeing of the British working class.
In what way is advocating unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union detrimental to the working class?
Just have it in place of the FTA after the transition period of the Withdrawal Agreement ?
You think there will be an 'after'? We're heading for a Hotel California transition period.
Errm Yes - If Corbyn proposes "unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union" then why wouldn't the EU gladly say "Hurrah, Hurrah ! We're out of transition; the backstop is avoided, lets pop open the champers." ?
Obviously I'm oversimplifying here but fundamentally whats wrong with the argument I'm proposing here ?
Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.
the only other deal would involve further concessions to the EU which Corbyn would give
Until someone explains to him in words of one syllable the EU's State Aid rules.
I can't for the life of me think why they haven't done this already....
If the deal fails, the blame (if blame it is) rests with those who voted against. The majority of those will be Labour MPs.
if it results in a No-Deal exit, surely they will accept the blame?
Tory MPs voting against the government, their own party; and the national interest are more to blame. Not that I'm absolving Labour (Or even Uncle Vince) of responsibility, far from it.
Not at all, they at least will be thinking of the country, remember May's mantra "A bad deal is worse than no deal" , what happened to that one.
She was just saying that during the negotiating period to secure the best possible deal. I mean you don't say when someone views your house to sell "We'll knock 20 grand off the price if you ask for it" - same applies here.
If the deal fails, the blame (if blame it is) rests with those who voted against. The majority of those will be Labour MPs.
if it results in a No-Deal exit, surely they will accept the blame?
Tory MPs voting against the government, their own party; and the national interest are more to blame. Not that I'm absolving Labour (Or even Uncle Vince) of responsibility, far from it.
Not at all, they at least will be thinking of the country, remember May's mantra "A bad deal is worse than no deal" , what happened to that one.
It's remarkable isn't it. We've gone from "No Deal is better than a Bad Deal" to "Everyone is bored now, lets just vote this dogs dinner of a deal through so we can stop talking about it".
Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.
Labour are prepared to cave in further to the EU by accepting a permanent customs union for the UK, so in that sense the only other deal would involve further concessions to the EU which Corbyn would give
The problem with a customs union being...? Which deals are we expecting to sign which have a higher £ value than all of the ones we would be giving up? Specifically?
I am finding it very difficult to keep up with the threads and I am sure I am not alone
My wife and I have just watched on TV The Railway Children from the Kings Cross Theatre and it was wonderful.
I will keep up with the threads as much as I can but there is another life out there. Just had a sleepover with 3 (5, 7 and 9) of our 4 grandchildren and at the ages of 75 and 79 it was challenging but we survived, so I am confident we will survive brexit
I may not post as frequently but I know the debate will rage on for a long time to come
All the best to all posters from all sides of the argument and none.
Try to keep it civil - it enhances your argument
Please post when you can Big_G. Your comments are always worth reading and thoughtful.
It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.
I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.
I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?
Labour wants a Labour government. The form of Brexit, or indeed whether we Remain or Leave, is much less important.
Or, apparently, the wellbeing of the British working class.
In what way is advocating unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union detrimental to the working class?
Just have it in place of the FTA after the transition period of the Withdrawal Agreement ?
You think there will be an 'after'? We're heading for a Hotel California transition period.
Errm Yes - If Corbyn proposes "unfettered access to the Single Market and a permanent Customs Union" then why wouldn't the EU gladly say "Hurrah, Hurrah ! We're out of transition; the backstop is avoided, lets pop open the champers." ?
Obviously I'm oversimplifying here but fundamentally whats wrong with the argument I'm proposing here ?
Because Spain will veto because of Gibraltar, or France will veto because of fish, or Cyprus will veto because of military bases, or, or, or...
Mr. Borough, I second that. I'd add that Mr. NorthWales also posts things in a civil and pleasant manner, which is welcome when things can get rather testy here.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be great! Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be fine! Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be not as bad as war. Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be not as bad as famine. Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Hey, Brexit is really bad! Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: It's those fucking Remainers' fault...
I dunno about it being Remain's fault, but you do have to admit that the remainers in government have never really put their back into it, so it's no surprise we have ended up where we are. Cockup or conspiracy, who knows. but the end result will be the same. I reckon we'll stay in now but the country is fucked. At least we have the comfort of knowing the Tories are royally fucked for a few years as well. Every cloud.
Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.
Yes, I think they’d be happy to agree a deal more favourable to them.
Well quite. That is the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of Tory and Labour NewDealers. Maybe they are right and the EU really would reopen matters, but what would we be prepared to give in exchange for something additional? Labour at least could argue they would give ground on somethings, whereas the Tory ones are insisting we will get a better deal without conceding anything further as far as I can see it.
Add to that, this 'I don't believe the EU' is a remarkably complacent position to take in these circumstances, it's practically leavery in its assumption of EU willingness to come to us. But more pressingly, such a negotiation could only take place either when Labour take over or the Tories unite behind some new position. Each would take some amount of time, when there is precious little left, so an extension is needed as justin says.
But the extension would be needed up front, given where we are. And if the EU don't know who the Tory leader would be, or for sure that Labour would win a GE, why would they be willing to grant an extension when there would be no certainty of what we would come back with? What if Labour are reliant upon the SNP, which would alter the dynamic from if they had a majority. What if Boris got in, or Hunt, or Raab? Each has quit or stayed in at different moments and would presumably take somewhat different stances.
I'm fine with simply being opposed to the deal, but it is remarkable how complacent MPs are that various contradictory things will happen, in quick time, and which rely upon unanimity which there is no sign of, and full cooperation of the EU.
None of that makes a crap deal less crap, but it does speak to alternatives as trying to sell some milk and honey vision of things.
Let’s not forget - without Gina Miller there would be no opportunity for Parliament to reject May’s steaming pile of ordure.
Yet another of the guilty (wo)men that'll history won't look kindly upon when we crash out. There's a reason this sort of power normally rests with the government.
The actions of a lot of Remainers from Tony Blair down have probably made "No Deal" much more likely that it would otherwise have been...
Plus, its rhetoric and her repetition of it had the added side-effect of alienating Tory and potential Tory remain voters who might have given her a majority if they felt the government was offering to allay some of their fears about loss of rights, economic problems etc.
Blair has been peripheral to the whole process, while the reason remainers have become more intransigent is the above - there was no attempt to unite the country, only indulge the fantasists in the ERG - who then inevitably turned round and blamed her when those fantasies collided with reality. Remainers have become more determined the more they believe they stand to lose - which is the problem - she and Brexiteers never tried to win people round to a compromise.
Yes, Theresa's behaviour in that early part of her reign is baffling. Love or hate her, she's clearly a technocrat, and grinding solutions and grubby compromises are her thing. Why she pandered to the wands-and-fairies fantasies of the Leavers and stored all this trouble up for herself is a mystery. Surely it wasn't all about pleasing Dacre and getting a few of his ludicrous Mail headlines.
I suggest she was insecure of her position, having spoken up for Remain in 2016, and saw the principal threat at the time coming from the Wee Smog and his ERG'ers, hence needed to pander to them to buy herself time.
Apparently it is "pandering" to support the obvious interpretation of the Leave vote, including the control of immigration and laws that most nations in the world have.
No, pandering is an activity independent of any particular point of view. It simply means that she was saying things to humour one wing of her party that she never had any intention of following through. As PM she was always going to conclude a real world Brexit and her words of comfort for the fruitcakes in her party were simply to keep them quiet, for a time.
She has delivered on 90% of what she said, with just a couple of compromises affecting less than a fifth of our economy.
Corbyn is responsible for a lot of things, particularly the brick-by-brick demolition of his own party's electability. Brexit however is a train wreck painted blue!
Reading this thread, I see the 'Remain Media' is now also being fingered.
As the government it would be difficult to blame others anyway but I think Labours tactics have left the Conservatives completely without a Labour bogeyman to believably blame.
If you are right labour and Corbyn will rocket up the polls but I am not holding my breath
In fact the polling over the next two weeks is going to be fascinating
Edit: Presumably those annoyed at the Conservatives from a more centrist remainy politics would more likely go Lib Dem.
This may have been true in the past - although it neglects the opportunity cost of being seen to be right in advance rather than opportunistic - and the Lib Dems' woes are not tied to their Brexit stance. But it's a strategy that had a time limit that has now expired and politicians have to face reality rather than their own fantasies.
The Conservatives leading us to no deal and the bad things that would cause would encourage Labour voters rather than put them off.
This firstly assumes no deal - if no deal happens and is half as bad as the warnings I genuinely think all bets are off. Turmoil on that scale would likely sweep away both party leaders, if not the parties themselves. It would be a failure so great that I don't think Corbyn-Labour could escape it - he'd be Lansbury to May's Chamberlain. Especially given the repeated warnings he and his team have had to come up with something to stop disaster - and happily sat by and watched.
Which brings me as to why the Lib Dem comparison does work in still the most likely scenario - the Tories get a deal through that no one's that happy with and is ultimately harmful as any Brexit will be but it stops carnage and gets us out. Your point would be true if the Conservatives had a rebellion proof majority - Labour could do nothing that wasn't rhetorical. They'd own it - and Labour could make hay saying as they are now, we'd have done it better, even if that is untrue. But they don't. There's probably a majority in the HoC for something like EEA/EFTA now and likely going to be one for a People's Vote if Maty's deal is voted down next month. Corbyn would be the man who'd failed his voters when he could have acted, but chose not to, either through expediency or due to ideology.
Either way, if Theresa May and Cameron are the parents of Brexit, he'd be its midwife.
If the deal fails, the blame (if blame it is) rests with those who voted against. The majority of those will be Labour MPs.
if it results in a No-Deal exit, surely they will accept the blame?
Tory MPs voting against the government, their own party; and the national interest are more to blame. Not that I'm absolving Labour (Or even Uncle Vince) of responsibility, far from it.
Not at all, they at least will be thinking of the country, remember May's mantra "A bad deal is worse than no deal" , what happened to that one.
It's remarkable isn't it. We've gone from "No Deal is better than a Bad Deal" to "Everyone is bored now, lets just vote this dogs dinner of a deal through so we can stop talking about it".
The public shock when they realise, some time next summer, that all of this is simply the end of the beginning, will be something to behold.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be great! Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be fine! Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be not as bad as war. Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be not as bad as famine. Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Hey, Brexit is really bad! Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: It's those fucking Remainers' fault...
I dunno about it being Remain's fault, but you do have to admit that the remainers in government have never really put their back into it, so it's no surprise we have ended up where we are. Cockup or conspiracy, who knows. but the end result will be the same. I reckon we'll stay in now but the country is fucked. At least we have the comfort of knowing the Tories are royally fucked for a few years as well. Every cloud.
If the Government says "here is a deal for Brexit" and Remainers turn around and vote it down, that isn't Brexit failing. That is Remainers deliberately sabotaging both Brexit and the economy to get their beloved EU. They should rightly get blamed for it.
The EU are known for the clarity of their positions. We knew in advance of the referendum where their red lines were and they haven't moved an inch. They've now negotiated a "deal" and have said the only other thing they are willing to negotiate is how Hard a Brexit we want.
So, this is helpful in two ways. One, it reinforces the hopelessness of May's position. A deal that nobody positively likes, and only a few defend on the grounds of "its better than the consequences of no deal". Two, it demonstrates that the rational, logical position that the UK should take is to rescind A50.
The question was asked below about what politicians means when they say "renegotiate the deal". The answer depends on which politicians. Tory politicians arguing for further negotiation are cretins, deluded zealots still insisting that the EU will fold at the 11th hour because this is BRITAIN. Labour politicians arguing for further negotiations are focused entirely on THEM negotiating as in being the government, and the "negotiation" would be on the wording of the joint communique rescinding A50.
Brexit is done. Finished. Over. Nobody will vote through the May aberration. Nobody will allow us to crash out without a deal. So we remain. As the only option left. Yes of course the political ramifications will initially be high. But at the end of the day the key learning will be that a vast swathe of the political class lied to people for their own narrow interests. Something which will shock nobody...
I agree we will probably remain now, but Labour's position is not that they are only going to negotiate purely to agree that, and if you think it is that is not a good thing as it would mean that they are openly lying about their position, which is not a good thing even if done for peoples' own good, because at some point the people doing it will misjudge if it is for peoples' own good. You don't fight lies with more lies, you fight it with the truth. I expect Labour to come out for remain at some point in the chaos after May's deal is done, and if they fail to get a GE.
Let’s not forget - without Gina Miller there would be no opportunity for Parliament to reject May’s steaming pile of ordure.
Yet another of the guilty (wo)men that'll history won't look kindly upon when we crash out. There's a reason this sort of power normally rests with the government.
The actions of a lot of Remainers from Tony down have probably made "No Deal" much more likely that it would otherwise have been...
Plus, its rhetoric and her repetition of it had the added side-effect of alienating Tory and potential Tory remain voters who might have given her a majority if they felt the government was offering to allay some of their fears about loss of rights, economic problems etc.
Blair has been peripheral to the whole process, while the reason remainers have become more intransigent is the above - there was no attempt to unite the country, only indulge the fantasists in the ERG - who then inevitably turned round and blamed her when those fantasies collided with reality. Remainers have become more determined the more they believe they stand to lose - which is the problem - she and Brexiteers never tried to win people round to a compromise.
Yes, Theresa's behaviour in that early part of her reign is baffling. Love or hate her, she's clearly a technocrat, and grinding solutions and grubby compromises are her thing. Why she pandered to the wands-and-fairies fantasies of the Leavers and stored all this trouble up for herself is a mystery. Surely it wasn't all about pleasing Dacre and getting a few of his ludicrous Mail headlines.
I suggest she was insecure of her position, having spoken up for Remain in 2016, and saw the principal threat at the time coming from the Wee Smog and his ERG'ers, hence needed to pander to them to buy herself time.
Apparently it is "pandering" to support the obvious interpretation of the Leave vote, including the control of immigration and laws that most nations in the world have.
No, pandering is an activity independent of any particular point of view. It simply means that she was saying things to humour one wing of her party that she never had any intention of following through. As PM she was always going to conclude a real world Brexit and her words of comfort for the fruitcakes in her party were simply to keep them quiet, for a time.
She has delivered on 90% of what she said, with just a couple of compromises affecting less than a fifth of our economy.
For sure. So why are they throwing their fruit out of the pram?
I am finding it very difficult to keep up with the threads and I am sure I am not alone
My wife and I have just watched on TV The Railway Children from the Kings Cross Theatre and it was wonderful.
I will keep up with the threads as much as I can but there is another life out there. Just had a sleepover with 3 (5, 7 and 9) of our 4 grandchildren and at the ages of 75 and 79 it was challenging but we survived, so I am confident we will survive brexit
I may not post as frequently but I know the debate will rage on for a long time to come
All the best to all posters from all sides of the argument and none.
Try to keep it civil - it enhances your argument
Please post when you can Big_G. Your comments are always worth reading and thoughtful.
She has delivered on 90% of what she said, with just a couple of compromises affecting less than a fifth of our economy.
It's all smoke and mirrors. Until there is a final trade deal you can't assert anything about what she's delivered. So far all this deal achieves is to put us in a weaker position in an orderly manner. Hardly something to celebrate.
She has delivered on 90% of what she said, with just a couple of compromises affecting less than a fifth of our economy.
It's all smoke and mirrors. Until there is a final trade deal you can't assert anything about what she's delivered. So far all this deal achieves is to put us in a weaker position in an orderly manner. Hardly something to celebrate.
Surely the game is up when some of the die-hard PB Tories are already finger pointing at Corbyn for the unfolding fiasco that lies ahead.
Corbyn is responsible for a lot of things, particularly the brick-by-brick demolition of his own party's electability. Brexit however is a train wreck painted blue!
Reading this thread, I see the 'Remain Media' is now also being fingered. Pretty much everyone's to blame except for those who spent decades agitating for this precise scenario.
In truth we are all to blame in some way
In what way am I to blame?
Those campaigning to stop brexit and those ultra brexiteers are responsible for the deadlock
I know you really want the saintly Theresa and your riven party to not carry the can for this disaster but you really have to do better than that.
No one cares though. They've heard it is bad, everyone just assumes it will work out as they, and only they, want, and that's that.
An absolute waste of time in every respect. Why can't we just bring the vote on the deal forward to now? Let them vote it down 10/11th and there's a possibility they still won't have resolved what the next step is going to be before Xmas. For those of us who do follow politics why not just do it tomorrow, and give a little bit more time to fuck around and rule out more things before then?
She has delivered on 90% of what she said, with just a couple of compromises affecting less than a fifth of our economy.
It's all smoke and mirrors. Until there is a final trade deal you can't assert anything about what she's delivered. So far all this deal achieves is to put us in a weaker position in an orderly manner. Hardly something to celebrate.
It is, if people believe what they say about no deal being bad, as it avoids that.
But then from their actions I would say I am very skeptical that many people who claim to abhor no deal actually do, and just as skeptical that those who say they abhor the EU do, given how they are not prepared to contemplate anything other than a perfect scenario.
Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.
the only other deal would involve further concessions to the EU which Corbyn would give
Until someone explains to him in words of one syllable the EU's State Aid rules.
I can't for the life of me think why they haven't done this already....
He will have to cave if he wants to become PM as he needs Labour Remainer and SNP support
Labour could argue that they would have different 'red lines' to Theresa May. I am not inclined to take EU talk about 'No other deal' at face value. Clearly an extension to article 50 would be needed.
Labour are prepared to cave in further to the EU by accepting a permanent customs union for the UK, so in that sense the only other deal would involve further concessions to the EU which Corbyn would give
The problem with a customs union being...? Which deals are we expecting to sign which have a higher £ value than all of the ones we would be giving up? Specifically?
I have no great problem with staying in the customs union but it would certainly be a further cave in the view of Brexiteers
But big shout out to the ERG who thanks to their brilliance might see the UK rejoin the EU replete with the Euro.
PS - Is it possible to key your own car these days? My keys aren't really keys but fobs.
More like the EU on current terms before March after EUref2 or after full single market, I doubt we will ever join the Euro, that is even less popular than No Deal.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
The EU are known for the clarity of their positions. We knew in advance of the referendum where their red lines were and they haven't moved an inch. They've now negotiated a "deal" and have said the only other thing they are willing to negotiate is how Hard a Brexit we want.
So, this is helpful in two ways. One, it reinforces the hopelessness of May's position. A deal that nobody positively likes, and only a few defend on the grounds of "its better than the consequences of no deal". Two, it demonstrates that the rational, logical position that the UK should take is to rescind A50.
The question was asked below about what politicians means when they say "renegotiate the deal". The answer depends on which politicians. Tory politicians arguing for further negotiation are cretins, deluded zealots still insisting that the EU will fold at the 11th hour because this is BRITAIN. Labour politicians arguing for further negotiations are focused entirely on THEM negotiating as in being the government, and the "negotiation" would be on the wording of the joint communique rescinding A50.
Brexit is done. Finished. Over. Nobody will vote through the May aberration. Nobody will allow us to crash out without a deal. So we remain. As the only option left. Yes of course the political ramifications will initially be high. But at the end of the day the key learning will be that a vast swathe of the political class lied to people for their own narrow interests. Something which will shock nobody...
I agree we will probably remain now, but Labour's position is not that they are only going to negotiate purely to agree that, and if you think it is that is not a good thing as it would mean that they are openly lying about their position, which is not a good thing even if done for peoples' own good, because at some point the people doing it will misjudge if it is for peoples' own good. You don't fight lies with more lies, you fight it with the truth. I expect Labour to come out for remain at some point in the chaos after May's deal is done, and if they fail to get a GE.
One of the more honest MPs appears to have been Ken Clarke. He voted against A50.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
The £ in my pocket would be worth 25% more if we'd joined in 1999.
She has delivered on 90% of what she said, with just a couple of compromises affecting less than a fifth of our economy.
It's all smoke and mirrors. Until there is a final trade deal you can't assert anything about what she's delivered. So far all this deal achieves is to put us in a weaker position in an orderly manner. Hardly something to celebrate.
This is your usual rubbish. You can't actually back up your arguments with details of the deal so you just throw around terms like "smoke and mirrors" and "BINO", hoping that by posting ten times more than anyone else you won't get challenged on all your lies. This deal removes the ability for the EU to close the border, taking away their biggest threat off the table. That strengthens our leverage, not theirs.
But big shout out to the ERG who thanks to their brilliance might see the UK rejoin the EU replete with the Euro.
PS - Is it possible to key your own car these days? My keys aren't really keys but fobs.
Brexit is the UK asking our closest trading partners in effect to put sanctions on our businesses, consumers and people.
It is apparent that it is self inflicted national decline on an accelerated basis. The power blocks of the future will be China, North America, India and of course Europe, which some voters in the UK were duped into thinking it would be a good idea to divorce from. If we cannot get good deals with Europe, which we are interconnected with through decades of free trade then just imagine how tough life is going to be in the rest of the world.
She has delivered on 90% of what she said, with just a couple of compromises affecting less than a fifth of our economy.
It's all smoke and mirrors. Until there is a final trade deal you can't assert anything about what she's delivered. So far all this deal achieves is to put us in a weaker position in an orderly manner. Hardly something to celebrate.
This is your usual rubbish. You can't actually back up your arguments with details of the deal so you just throw around terms like "smoke and mirrors" and "BINO", hoping that by posting ten times more than anyone else you won't get challenged on all your lies. This deal removes the ability for the EU to close the border, taking away their biggest threat off the table. That strengthens our leverage, not theirs.
The backstop does not leave GB in the single market and does mean there would be some trade barriers unless the future relationship upgrades the level of access. It’s not only about customs, as the EU/Turkey border demonstrates.
She has delivered on 90% of what she said, with just a couple of compromises affecting less than a fifth of our economy.
It's all smoke and mirrors. Until there is a final trade deal you can't assert anything about what she's delivered. So far all this deal achieves is to put us in a weaker position in an orderly manner. Hardly something to celebrate.
This is your usual rubbish. You can't actually back up your arguments with details of the deal so you just throw around terms like "smoke and mirrors" and "BINO", hoping that by posting ten times more than anyone else you won't get challenged on all your lies. This deal removes the ability for the EU to close the border, taking away their biggest threat off the table. That strengthens our leverage, not theirs.
Mr. kle4, if we do end up remaining the challenge the parties face will be cooling the political temperature, and the handling the situation when, inevitably, more integration occurs.
Mr. Glenn, one simply has the drawbridge lowered and portcullis raised.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro
If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.
If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro
The others are probably blissfully unaware of how stable a currency the Euro has become, possibly not far short of the S.Fr.
The £ has depreciated 20% since the Euro since 1999. In plain English, a foreign holiday which might otherwise cost £600 will cost nearer £750.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be great! Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be fine! Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be not as bad as war. Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Brexit will be not as bad as famine. Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: Hey, Brexit is really bad! Remainer: It's a bad idea.
Brexiteer: It's those fucking Remainers' fault...
I dunno about it being Remain's fault, but you do have to admit that the remainers in government have never really put their back into it, so it's no surprise we have ended up where we are. Cockup or conspiracy, who knows. but the end result will be the same. I reckon we'll stay in now but the country is fucked. At least we have the comfort of knowing the Tories are royally fucked for a few years as well. Every cloud.
If the Government says "here is a deal for Brexit" and Remainers turn around and vote it down, that isn't Brexit failing. That is Remainers deliberately sabotaging both Brexit and the economy to get their beloved EU. They should rightly get blamed for it.
Last time I checked there wasn't a 'Remainer' party - well the Lib Dems and the SNP, but the former are too small to save May's deal from any Brexiteer rebellion and the latter have their own priorities. Labour, in case you hadn't noticed, is led by someone who is more than sympathetic to Brexit, but is also determined to play politics with it to get into power (it may work, I don't think it will, see below) and so will whip his MPs against. Given the thuggish cost of disloyalty to the Dear Leader (even when he's incoherent) in today's Labour Party, you can hardly expect MPs to put a target on their backs for something they don't believe in.
Nope. This is on Brexiteers for being like communists and supporting a fantasy then when it turns to crap claiming no one has ever tried it properly.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
Most of them will go back to their comfort zone muttering about betrayal and spend the rest of their lives blaming everything bad on the EU.
But politicians who pretended to support Brexit for careerist reasons - Hunt, Javid etc - will be ridiculed, if Brexit is reversed many careers will crash, starting with most of the cabinet.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro
If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.
If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.
No, why should we? We would be associate semi members along with Poland, Sweden and Denmark as Macron has suggested and as we should have agreed all along before the EU referendum.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro
The others are probably blissfully unaware of how stable a currency the Euro has become, possibly not far short of the S.Fr.
The £ has depreciated 20% since the Euro since 1999. In plain English, a foreign holiday which might otherwise cost £600 will cost nearer £750.
Mainly as a result of Brexit. Tell Greece and Italy how well they are doing in the Euro with their sky high unemployment and austerity!
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro
If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.
If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.
No, why should we? We would be associate semi members along with Poland, Sweden and Denmark as Macron has suggested and as we should have agreed all along before the EU referendum.
So you enjoy standing in a queue at Passport Control and paying commission on your travel money?
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro
If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.
If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.
I would hesitate before referring to the euro as a benefit. As would Varafoukis...
My wife and I have must received personal e mails from Theresa endorsing her deal
There is no doubt she is on a mission to talk to the people
Interesting Sky's report from a fun run was very encouraging for her
She wants the people to have a say to persuade her MPs to vote in favour. And at the same time She doesn't want the people to have a say casting a vote as doing so would be undemocratic.
My wife and I have must received personal e mails from Theresa endorsing her deal
There is no doubt she is on a mission to talk to the people
Interesting Sky's report from a fun run was very encouraging for her
She wants the people to have a say to persuade her MPs to vote in favour. And at the same time She doesn't want the people to have a say casting a vote as doing so would be undemocratic.
The people on the fun run would have endorsed her deal
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro
If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.
If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.
I would hesitate before referring to the euro as a benefit. As would Varafoukis...
Greece shouldn't have been allowed to join in the first place. A Brussels fudge that cost them dear.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro
If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.
If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro
If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.
If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.
I would hesitate before referring to the euro as a benefit. As would Varafoukis...
Greece shouldn't have been allowed to join in the first place. A Brussels fudge that cost them dear.
We would have made Greece or Ireland look like a picnic had we joined. Yet we would undoubtedly have been allowed to had we wished to.
My wife and I have must received personal e mails from Theresa endorsing her deal
There is no doubt she is on a mission to talk to the people
Interesting Sky's report from a fun run was very encouraging for her
She wants the people to have a say to persuade her MPs to vote in favour. And at the same time She doesn't want the people to have a say casting a vote as doing so would be undemocratic.
And if MPs reject the deal they will have to vote again until they get the correct result. But asking the people to vote again would be a betrayal of democracy.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
If Brexit is reversed, the Brexiteers will need a sense of national mission. Don't be surprised if they end up being the keenest on joining the Euro.
I doubt it, they will continue complaining. Apart from from the LDs, Ken Clarke, Ted Heath, Michael Heseltine, Roy Jenkins and Peter Mandelson few Britons have ever supported the UK joining the Euro
If we are going to be in the EU we should be fully in. Euro, Schengen, the full works.
If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.
No, why should we? We would be associate semi members along with Poland, Sweden and Denmark as Macron has suggested and as we should have agreed all along before the EU referendum.
So you enjoy standing in a queue at Passport Control and paying commission on your travel money?
Why not give us plebs the benefits of membership?
You are normally pretty fast through if you are in the EU/EEA queue in my experience even if you have to flash you passport.
The 20% unemployed in Eurozone Greece or the 16% unemployed in Eurozone Spain or the 11% unemployed in Eurozone Italy may argue with you about the benefits the plebs get from Euro membership
Comments
It works both ways. If a No-Deal becomes a success, then Labour will be falling over themselves to claim the credit. Only fair they take their share of blame if it goes wrong.
I'm unclear about what Labour want. Is it to force the Government back to the negotiating table to find no one else there? Seems an odd policy, and guarantees a No-Deal Brexit.
I understand it's about political advantage, but surely this is as gormless as you can get?
He's too good for her and she does not deserve him.
The Conservatives leading us to no deal and the bad things that would cause would encourage Labour voters rather than put them off.
So, this is helpful in two ways. One, it reinforces the hopelessness of May's position. A deal that nobody positively likes, and only a few defend on the grounds of "its better than the consequences of no deal". Two, it demonstrates that the rational, logical position that the UK should take is to rescind A50.
The question was asked below about what politicians means when they say "renegotiate the deal". The answer depends on which politicians. Tory politicians arguing for further negotiation are cretins, deluded zealots still insisting that the EU will fold at the 11th hour because this is BRITAIN. Labour politicians arguing for further negotiations are focused entirely on THEM negotiating as in being the government, and the "negotiation" would be on the wording of the joint communique rescinding A50.
Brexit is done. Finished. Over. Nobody will vote through the May aberration. Nobody will allow us to crash out without a deal. So we remain. As the only option left. Yes of course the political ramifications will initially be high. But at the end of the day the key learning will be that a vast swathe of the political class lied to people for their own narrow interests. Something which will shock nobody...
(1) May's deal. A sort of kick most of it into the long grass and await developments.
(2) Labour's tactics. Blame May for everything. Those cuddly Eurocrats could have been brought round if only Labour could have been in charge.
(3) ERG deal, threaten No-Deal and mean it.
Hmm … problem with number one is there's no guarantees, problem with number two is it's nakedly political and bollocks, problem with number three is it probably means No-Deal.
Number one means trusting TM. Number two means trusting Labour who have no interest in a successful Brexit, and number three means trusting in a No-Deal.
I suspect NOTA would win. However re-running the referendum means giving up on meaningful democracy from now on with no acceptance of the result anyway (whichever way it goes).
Brexitter
-------------
New words by Sunil, original music by Marc Almond & Dave Ball.
Friday morning going slow
I'm watching the election show
Lots of Ladbrokes slips on the floor
Memories of the night before
Out knocking up and having fun
Now I've stopped reading The Sun
Waiting for the results to show
But why I voted no one knows
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
I think it's time to write a thread
To vent the bemusement in my head
Spent my money on online bookies
Got nowt here but all the cookies
Clean my suit and my rosette
Election promises to forget
Start campaigning all over again
Kid myself I'm having fun
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
Looking out from my worldview
I've really nothing else to do
Seems like I have started fretting
Let's read Political Betting
Forget The Mirror and The Times
The battle bus with such great lines
Look around and I can see
A thousand punters just like me
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
(I'm waiting for Brexit
Or am I wasting time)
My wife and I have just watched on TV The Railway Children from the Kings Cross Theatre and it was wonderful.
I will keep up with the threads as much as I can but there is another life out there. Just had a sleepover with 3 (5, 7 and 9) of our 4 grandchildren and at the ages of 75 and 79 it was challenging but we survived, so I am confident we will survive brexit
I may not post as frequently but I know the debate will rage on for a long time to come
All the best to all posters from all sides of the argument and none.
Try to keep it civil - it enhances your argument
You are so thick you did not even manage to make out that there were no people involved in my post.
Obviously I'm oversimplifying here but fundamentally whats wrong with the argument I'm proposing here ?
I can't for the life of me think why they haven't done this already....
I just don't see a deal being agreed by all 27.
https://twitter.com/Mike_Fabricant/status/1066745196124258306
Add to that, this 'I don't believe the EU' is a remarkably complacent position to take in these circumstances, it's practically leavery in its assumption of EU willingness to come to us. But more pressingly, such a negotiation could only take place either when Labour take over or the Tories unite behind some new position. Each would take some amount of time, when there is precious little left, so an extension is needed as justin says.
But the extension would be needed up front, given where we are. And if the EU don't know who the Tory leader would be, or for sure that Labour would win a GE, why would they be willing to grant an extension when there would be no certainty of what we would come back with? What if Labour are reliant upon the SNP, which would alter the dynamic from if they had a majority. What if Boris got in, or Hunt, or Raab? Each has quit or stayed in at different moments and would presumably take somewhat different stances.
I'm fine with simply being opposed to the deal, but it is remarkable how complacent MPs are that various contradictory things will happen, in quick time, and which rely upon unanimity which there is no sign of, and full cooperation of the EU.
None of that makes a crap deal less crap, but it does speak to alternatives as trying to sell some milk and honey vision of things.
Which brings me as to why the Lib Dem comparison does work in still the most likely scenario - the Tories get a deal through that no one's that happy with and is ultimately harmful as any Brexit will be but it stops carnage and gets us out. Your point would be true if the Conservatives had a rebellion proof majority - Labour could do nothing that wasn't rhetorical. They'd own it - and Labour could make hay saying as they are now, we'd have done it better, even if that is untrue. But they don't. There's probably a majority in the HoC for something like EEA/EFTA now and likely going to be one for a People's Vote if Maty's deal is voted down next month. Corbyn would be the man who'd failed his voters when he could have acted, but chose not to, either through expediency or due to ideology.
Either way, if Theresa May and Cameron are the parents of Brexit, he'd be its midwife.
An absolute waste of time in every respect. Why can't we just bring the vote on the deal forward to now? Let them vote it down 10/11th and there's a possibility they still won't have resolved what the next step is going to be before Xmas. For those of us who do follow politics why not just do it tomorrow, and give a little bit more time to fuck around and rule out more things before then?
But big shout out to the ERG who thanks to their brilliance might see the UK rejoin the EU replete with the Euro.
PS - Is it possible to key your own car these days? My keys aren't really keys but fobs.
But then from their actions I would say I am very skeptical that many people who claim to abhor no deal actually do, and just as skeptical that those who say they abhor the EU do, given how they are not prepared to contemplate anything other than a perfect scenario.
Time to pack it all in I think. Fuck it.
Even if we rejoin the EU we will likely remain semi-detached members like Poland, Sweden and Denmark, not full members of the EU project and Eurozone like France, Germany and the Benelux nations
It is apparent that it is self inflicted national decline on an accelerated basis. The power blocks of the future will be China, North America, India and of course Europe, which some voters in the UK were duped into thinking it would be a good idea to divorce from. If we cannot get good deals with Europe, which we are interconnected with through decades of free trade then just imagine how tough life is going to be in the rest of the world.
Shame on the Brexiteers!
Mr. Glenn, one simply has the drawbridge lowered and portcullis raised.
Anyway, time for me to be off.
If you missed it, and even if not, my final post-race ramble of the year is here: http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/11/abu-dhabi-post-race-analysis-2018.html
If we do Remain then we should join up to all of the benefits of membership.
The £ has depreciated 20% since the Euro since 1999. In plain English, a foreign holiday which might otherwise cost £600 will cost nearer £750.
Nope. This is on Brexiteers for being like communists and supporting a fantasy then when it turns to crap claiming no one has ever tried it properly.
But politicians who pretended to support Brexit for careerist reasons - Hunt, Javid etc - will be ridiculed, if Brexit is reversed many careers will crash, starting with most of the cabinet.
There is no doubt she is on a mission to talk to the people
Interesting Sky's report from a fun run was very encouraging for her
Why not give us plebs the benefits of membership?
And at the same time
She doesn't want the people to have a say casting a vote as doing so would be undemocratic.
That is in fact most of the problem...
The 20% unemployed in Eurozone Greece or the 16% unemployed in Eurozone Spain or the 11% unemployed in Eurozone Italy may argue with you about the benefits the plebs get from Euro membership