politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Mad Tory Friday part 2…..
Comments
-
I'm moving firmly into the f*** 'em camp...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/16/eu-seek-brexit-concessions-fishing-tax-stop-uk-gaining-competitive/0 -
Thats the point. You cannot manage crash out brexitTGOHF said:
Depends entirely how they manage it - one led by May / Hammond would be toxic.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.0 -
If we cannot renegotiate neither can they. Surely the EU is not trying to cherry pick?RobD said:I'm moving firmly into the f*** 'em camp...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/16/eu-seek-brexit-concessions-fishing-tax-stop-uk-gaining-competitive/0 -
I think it's entirely legitimate to argue for a binary choice between the deal and Remain. No deal is a risk, not an option.kle4 said:
I have never said people could not campaign to remain even from right after the initial referendum. The opposite in fact, there's nothign wrong with that. I was pointing out there is a difference between his reasons for there to be a vote and the people's vote campaign. That's relatively subtle, but it is significant because his argument this is not about a re-run, and their argument is clearly about a rerun.williamglenn said:
It's not a thought crime to want a particular outcome, but the analysis that this process would lead to a deal for which there would be no mandate and that we would therefore need a second vote was right then and is right now.kle4 said:
Jo Johnson is apparently saying now we know the exact details it is reasonable to ask for a vote. Others clearly just wanted a rerun well before they knew the exact details, they just didn't want to leave. Which is rerunning the last referendum.williamglenn said:
It was known long ago that we would be presented with a withdrawal agreement at the end of the article 50 process.kle4 said:
He should tell that to the people's vote campaign, since a vote has been asked for long before the exact nature of the deal was known.IanB2 said:
This would not be about re-running that referendumAndyJS said:"Jo Johnson: the inside story of Brexit and where it all went wrong "
https://www.ft.com/content/92974b74-e8d9-11e8-885c-e64da4c0f981
It's ok, I too think we need a vote now, but we have to be real about many motivations here.
If it were not about a re-run they would emphasise a lot more that people should be able to confirm no deal or a bad deal if they want, but most of its supporters act like only remain would be on the table.0 -
It is about technique.kle4 said:
I believe you have been asked before, but as a medical man what other remedy for boils would you have recommended?Foxy said:
Yes, May has gone for the loyalists. Rudd took the debate for her in 2017 and the bullet for her over Windrush. Just the person for the UC debacle.TGOHF said:A coven of Rudd, Hammond and May in charge of Brexit - that should calm down the ERG. Not.
May out.
Cameron's Brexit referendum has really lanced that Tory Boil of Europe. Noxious pus everywhere..
Boils do need to be drained, but the key is in proper drainage of the noxious pus, and good wound toilet with a drain to prevent reforming. If a boil discharges into a tissue vullnerable to infection then it spreads. Of course there is also the risk to adjacent structures, which can also be dangerous and fatal, if the knife is poorly wielded.
0 -
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
Today has been delicious, the funniest day in politics in a long time.
JRM, self styled walking anachronism, but actually someone well tuned to the modern media cycle, plays the pace well again for the media, but fails to account for and has his rhythm destroyed and is laid low by the anachronistic practice of one bloke being responsible for counting letters once a day, if he is in, and announcing the results once he has phoned round a bit.
If they don't have the 48 letters today is hilarious, but I almost want the issue to be the coitus interruptus built into the process, because that is funnier still.0 -
It is not MY
It is not May and Hammond wanting a crash out deal. It is the ERG, who are doing everything they can to undermine the government they claim to support at a critical time.TGOHF said:
Depends entirely how they manage it - one led by May / Hammond would be toxic.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
0 -
They have been dragging the party down for years we just have to hope that they don't take the country with it. With hindsight from Major to Cameron appeasing the Euro loons has been a major mistake. Should have let them all shuffle off and rot in UKIP with Reckless and Carswell.Cyclefree said:Tracey Crouch should be back in government. She seems to have some principles and cares about people.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.0 -
The DUP in trouble tonight with their farmers and industry who have told them they have to back this deal and many are the DUP base supportersjustin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
What has that got to do with what we were talking about? I was pointing out Johnson and his new people's vote campaign allies (and indeed, me) are backing a second vote for different reasons, so his comment about it not being a rerun do not necessarily apply to them (indeed, they clearly don't apply to them, particularly as you avoided that point). It was a quibble over what the question should be.williamglenn said:
I think it's entirely legitimate to argue for a binary choice between the deal and Remain. No deal is a risk, not an option.kle4 said:
I have never said people could not campaign to remain even from right after the initial referendum. The opposite in fact, there's nothign wrong with that. I was pointing out there is a difference between his reasons for there to be a vote and the people's vote campaign. That's relatively subtle, but it is significant because his argument this is not about a re-run, and their argument is clearly about a rerun.williamglenn said:
It's not a thought crime to want a particular outcome, but the analysis that this process would lead to a deal for which there would be no mandate and that we would therefore need a second vote was right then and is right now.kle4 said:
Jo Johnson is apparently saying now we know the exact details it is reasonable to ask for a vote. Others clearly just wanted a rerun well before they knew the exact details, they just didn't want to leave. Which is rerunning the last referendum.williamglenn said:
It was known long ago that we would be presented with a withdrawal agreement at the end of the article 50 process.kle4 said:
He should tell that to the people's vote campaign, since a vote has been asked for long before the exact nature of the deal was known.IanB2 said:
This would not be about re-running that referendumAndyJS said:"Jo Johnson: the inside story of Brexit and where it all went wrong "
https://www.ft.com/content/92974b74-e8d9-11e8-885c-e64da4c0f981
It's ok, I too think we need a vote now, but we have to be real about many motivations here.
If it were not about a re-run they would emphasise a lot more that people should be able to confirm no deal or a bad deal if they want, but most of its supporters act like only remain would be on the table.0 -
You are indeed. And thank God for that.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am here.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
Listen to what EU leaders are saying today. They have come up with a fair deal. It is not perfect. It forms a basis for an orderly departure and building a future relationship. It keeps the Irish happy. It gives the UK quite a lot of what it wants. It seems a pragmatic way of balayoncing competing interests, especially given the limits which Britain placed on itself. If it is rejected, there is not going to be some magically different better deal pulled out of a hat somewhere.
Instead, in pursuit of some unattainable goal, some Tories are prepared to blow up their party and the country. They are prepared to take that risk, a risk which if it comes true will daamge others, many of whom will not be well able to protect themselves. They are little different from Marxist revolutionaries who want to destroy society so as to build their utopia. They really are beneath contempt.
I am not a Eurofanatic, by a very long measure. Quite the opposite in fact. But the more I have seen of the ERG in recent days, the more I prefer the EU.
Whatever happened to sensible pragmatism?
And good post. Spot on
I do hope you and your wife are feeling much better.0 -
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
That sounds fair and acceptable to the losers..rpjs said:
That could be waived by the legislation authorizing the referendum.shiney2 said:
Referendum wording is the responsibility of the Electoral Commission.Barnesian said:
Agreed. But tough titty.Sean_Fear said:
I think that whether it were Deal v Remain, Deal v No Deal, or Remain v No Deal, or a multiple choice, the losers would see it as a betrayal.JosiasJessop said:
But a No gets us nowhere, and whatever Parliament decides will still be seen as a betrayal by one side or the other.Sean_Fear said:If it goes to a Referendum, I think the fairest course is simply the Deal, Yes or No. Then it's up to Parliament to decide what to do if the answer is No.
This mess is a result of the leave campaigns' central contradiction and lie, and that would just repeat the mistake.
MPs will decide which of the four possible choices are on the referendum ballot paper.
Deal versus no deal. Brexiteers would prefer this one but no majority in the house for it.
Remain versus no deal. Remainers would prefer this one but risk of "wrong" answer by the Britsh public. No majority for this one.
Remain versus deal versus no deal. Too complex and problematic. Risk of no deal. No majority for this one.
Deal versus Remain. Probably preferred by Mrs May and all opposition parties. Good chance of a majority of MPs supporting this amendment. Result of referendum could go either way.0 -
Thank you so much and while better still not 100%Cyclefree said:
You are indeed. And thank God for that.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am here.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
Listen to what EU leaders are saying today. They have come up with a fair deal. It is not perfect. It forms a basis for an orderly departure and building a future relationship. It keeps the Irish happy. It gives the UK quite a lot of what it wants. It seems a pragmatic way of balayoncing competing interests, especially given the limits which Britain placed on itself. If it is rejected, there is not going to be some magically different better deal pulled out of a hat somewhere.
Instead, in pursuit of some unattainable goal, some Tories are prepared to blow up their party and the country. They are prepared to take that risk, a risk which if it comes true will daamge others, many of whom will not be well able to protect themselves. They are little different from Marxist revolutionaries who want to destroy society so as to build their utopia. They really are beneath contempt.
I am not a Eurofanatic, by a very long measure. Quite the opposite in fact. But the more I have seen of the ERG in recent days, the more I prefer the EU.
Whatever happened to sensible pragmatism?
And good post. Spot on
I do hope you and your wife are feeling much better.
Still we keep looking after each other as it should be for us oldies0 -
TBH, as a Remainer.... out on the streets for membership of the EU in 2016 and in 1975..... I think the deal should be accepted. It seems give the best chance of being able to say 'sorry pardon, can we come back'.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
I have been reflecting on the current political events since one broadcaster said yesterday it was the worst moment since the Suez crisis in the 1950s.
I don't think the current crisis is as bad as the financial crisis at the end of the last decade. I remember Gordon Brown being so shaky in office that he had multiple cabinet resignations in one day about his ability to do the job not policy like now. Indeed I have never forgotten the press conference in number 10 , when members of the media were taking the piss and laughing at him whilst he was speaking!
The ERM crisis was spectacularly bad as a complete economic policy collapsed in a matter of hours and John Major never recovered.
Further back the IMF loan of the 1970s was potentially worse than the current crisis or before that the 1967 devaluation.
The current period is bad but I am not so sure it is as bad as some media commentators suggested yesterday. It is more like a slow motion car crash at the moment than a high speed impact at the moment! The point at which it becomes a real crisis is if No deal is set in stone and it is too late to reverse. We are not at that point yet.
0 -
Correct.Charles said:
You just repudiate it unilaterallyGIN1138 said:
Which of course is what will happen...Xenon said:
Is there any way to get from phase 1 to phase 2?rpjs said:
It's Britain leaving the European Union. Which was the only thing on the referendum ballot paper and the only thing that there is an actual mandate for.AmpfieldAndy said:
With immigration undecided, trade unresolved, the common rule book over which we have no say foisted on us, NI left in limbo, the transition period length unresolved, how is that Brexit ?kle4 said:
It may be a bad deal, but it does have merits. To take the most obvious one for Brexiters, it ensures Brexit actually happens. That is still probable even without it, but not as certain is it was.AmpfieldAndy said:The Tories seem intent on gifting Corbyn the next election. Those sending in no confidence letters are a completely disorganised rabble with no idea what they want instead. Those supporting May are supporting an atrociously bad deal with no merits and to deliver which the Tories have abdicated their entire domestic policy agenda. It’s shameful.
The Withdrawal Agreement was always intended to be phase I of the disengagement, that's what "transition period" means. You can't disentangle forty years of economic integration overnight. Well you can, but your economy will crash and burn if you do.
I can imagine the EU can just tell us to get stuffed if we try to negotiate anything else.
Or they will let us go but we'll have to let them have Northern Ireland in the process, as outlined by Selmayr.
Take the hit (not that it will be much)
There is no mechanism for the United States to withdraw from NAFTA. But, you know what, if they decide they don't want to be in it, there's nothing that Mexico and Canada can do keep them.0 -
I doubt that will worry them too much in terms of the bigger picture.The UUP have also rejected the deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The DUP in trouble tonight with their farmers and industry who have told them they have to back this deal and many are the DUP base supportersjustin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
I wonder how much dirt the Tory Whips have on those 30 MPs........justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
Someone must have been doing all that bullying and sexual harassment we heard about a few weeks back.0 -
Remain is a risk as wellwilliamglenn said:
I think it's entirely legitimate to argue for a binary choice between the deal and Remain. No deal is a risk, not an option.kle4 said:
I have never said people could not campaign to remain even from right after the initial referendum. The opposite in fact, there's nothign wrong with that. I was pointing out there is a difference between his reasons for there to be a vote and the people's vote campaign. That's relatively subtle, but it is significant because his argument this is not about a re-run, and their argument is clearly about a rerun.williamglenn said:
It's not a thought crime to want a particular outcome, but the analysis that this process would lead to a deal for which there would be no mandate and that we would therefore need a second vote was right then and is right now.kle4 said:
Jo Johnson is apparently saying now we know the exact details it is reasonable to ask for a vote. Others clearly just wanted a rerun well before they knew the exact details, they just didn't want to leave. Which is rerunning the last referendum.williamglenn said:
It was known long ago that we would be presented with a withdrawal agreement at the end of the article 50 process.kle4 said:
He should tell that to the people's vote campaign, since a vote has been asked for long before the exact nature of the deal was known.IanB2 said:
This would not be about re-running that referendumAndyJS said:"Jo Johnson: the inside story of Brexit and where it all went wrong "
https://www.ft.com/content/92974b74-e8d9-11e8-885c-e64da4c0f981
It's ok, I too think we need a vote now, but we have to be real about many motivations here.
If it were not about a re-run they would emphasise a lot more that people should be able to confirm no deal or a bad deal if they want, but most of its supporters act like only remain would be on the table.0 -
This explains his recent behaviour
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1063488219784912901
https://twitter.com/AP/status/10634909117479321600 -
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
Just to be clear, in this analogy the USA is the UK, and Mexico and Canada are the EU?rcs1000 said:
Correct.Charles said:
You just repudiate it unilaterallyGIN1138 said:
Which of course is what will happen...Xenon said:
Is there any way to get from phase 1 to phase 2?rpjs said:
It's Britain leaving the European Union. Which was the only thing on the referendum ballot paper and the only thing that there is an actual mandate for.AmpfieldAndy said:
With immigration undecided, trade unresolved, the common rule book over which we have no say foisted on us, NI left in limbo, the transition period length unresolved, how is that Brexit ?kle4 said:
It may be a bad deal, but it does have merits. To take the most obvious one for Brexiters, it ensures Brexit actually happens. That is still probable even without it, but not as certain is it was.AmpfieldAndy said:The Tories seem intent on gifting Corbyn the next election. Those sending in no confidence letters are a completely disorganised rabble with no idea what they want instead. Those supporting May are supporting an atrociously bad deal with no merits and to deliver which the Tories have abdicated their entire domestic policy agenda. It’s shameful.
The Withdrawal Agreement was always intended to be phase I of the disengagement, that's what "transition period" means. You can't disentangle forty years of economic integration overnight. Well you can, but your economy will crash and burn if you do.
I can imagine the EU can just tell us to get stuffed if we try to negotiate anything else.
Or they will let us go but we'll have to let them have Northern Ireland in the process, as outlined by Selmayr.
Take the hit (not that it will be much)
There is no mechanism for the United States to withdraw from NAFTA. But, you know what, if they decide they don't want to be in it, there's nothing that Mexico and Canada can do keep them.0 -
Fair enough - but the LibDems - Stephen Lloyd aside- and Labour will find a justification to vote against this deal .Killing the Government off will override other considerations.OldKingCole said:
TBH, as a Remainer.... out on the streets for membership of the EU in 2016 and in 1975..... I think the deal should be accepted. It seems give the best chance of being able to say 'sorry pardon, can we come back'.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
So, in the hypothetical scenario in which it was economically sensible and electorally popular to withdraw from a UK-EU customs arrangement, the UK government would not do it because there was no explicit mechanism for withdrawal?shiney2 said:
Our lot couldn't bring themselves to repudiate anything unilaterally. We're rules based dontchano.Charles said:You just repudiate it unilaterally
Take the hit (not that it will be much)
There is no explicit mechanism for Switzerland to exit its arrangements with the EU, but that hasn't stopped them being revised, ripped up and rewritten half a dozen times.0 -
Point of Order: they are supporting the last Tory Manifesto. MrsMay is a having a problem with that.. And also the 84% of tory members that support actually leaving the EU.Cyclefree said:It is not MY
It is not May and Hammond wanting a crash out deal. It is the ERG, who are doing everything they can to undermine the government they claim to support at a critical time.TGOHF said:
Depends entirely how they manage it - one led by May / Hammond would be toxic.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.0 -
At what point would Corbyn be better off ordering abstention? (Actually, silly question, he'd be better off doing it now.) If Labour has significant numbers in both lobbies and absent surely sending the lot in a quiet weekend retreat to Whitehaven is the smart move?Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
Not so sure. It is their core votejustin124 said:
I doubt that will worry them too much in terms of the bigger picture.The UUP have also rejected the deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The DUP in trouble tonight with their farmers and industry who have told them they have to back this deal and many are the DUP base supportersjustin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
Yes. Size isn't important.williamglenn said:
Just to be clear, in this analogy the USA is the UK, and Mexico and Canada are the EU?rcs1000 said:
Correct.Charles said:
You just repudiate it unilaterallyGIN1138 said:
Which of course is what will happen...Xenon said:
Is there any way to get from phase 1 to phase 2?rpjs said:
It's Britain leaving the European Union. Which was the only thing on the referendum ballot paper and the only thing that there is an actual mandate for.AmpfieldAndy said:
With immigration undecided, trade unresolved, the common rule book over which we have no say foisted on us, NI left in limbo, the transition period length unresolved, how is that Brexit ?kle4 said:
It may be a bad deal, but it does have merits. To take the most obvious one for Brexiters, it ensures Brexit actually happens. That is still probable even without it, but not as certain is it was.AmpfieldAndy said:The Tories seem intent on gifting Corbyn the next election. Those sending in no confidence letters are a completely disorganised rabble with no idea what they want instead. Those supporting May are supporting an atrociously bad deal with no merits and to deliver which the Tories have abdicated their entire domestic policy agenda. It’s shameful.
The Withdrawal Agreement was always intended to be phase I of the disengagement, that's what "transition period" means. You can't disentangle forty years of economic integration overnight. Well you can, but your economy will crash and burn if you do.
I can imagine the EU can just tell us to get stuffed if we try to negotiate anything else.
Or they will let us go but we'll have to let them have Northern Ireland in the process, as outlined by Selmayr.
Take the hit (not that it will be much)
There is no mechanism for the United States to withdraw from NAFTA. But, you know what, if they decide they don't want to be in it, there's nothing that Mexico and Canada can do keep them.
What would happen in the real world (TM) is that HMG would notify the EU of its intention to withdraw from the arrangement on - say - 1 January 2022, and then negotiations to replace it would begin. Of course, that wouldn't solve all the problems, but the idea the EU could just "nick" Northern Ireland is ridiculous.0 -
What an asbolutely odious reason for not voting for a deal if they support it. This government would be dead anyway if a deal passes because the DUP won't back it (Yes they have implied about May specifically but that's because of the deal, so if it passes it seems very probable they would retaliate).justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
There are plenty of good reasons to vote against this deal, I don't know why anyone would need to reach for one like 'well, I'm in opposition and that is that' as though they are a robot who doesn't have to consider specific circumstances. I hope if the government announces something they like they refuse to back it because oppositions oppose.0 -
A united Ireland will be the DUP's just reward for their efforts - and it will save the rest of us a small fortune.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The DUP in trouble tonight with their farmers and industry who have told them they have to back this deal and many are the DUP base supportersjustin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
Sensible pragmatism stopped when politics became a matter of religious belief.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
Listen to what EU leaders are saying today. They have come up with a fair deal. It is not perfect. It forms a basis for an orderly departure and building a future relationship. It keeps the Irish happy. It gives the UK quite a lot of what it wants. It seems a pragmatic way of balancing competing interests, especially given the limits which Britain placed on itself. If it is rejected, there is not going to be some magically different better deal pulled out of a hat somewhere.
Instead, in pursuit of some unattainable goal, some Tories are prepared to blow up their party and the country. They are prepared to take that risk, a risk which if it comes true will daamge others, many of whom will not be well able to protect themselves. They are little different from Marxist revolutionaries who want to destroy society so as to build their utopia. They really are beneath contempt.
I am not a Eurofanatic, by a very long measure. Quite the opposite in fact. But the more I have seen of the ERG in recent days, the more I prefer the EU.
Whatever happened to sensible pragmatism?0 -
I can't believe I failed this exam! Damn it, I answered every question perfectly. What? I had to hand the paper in as well? Ridiculous. The exam board should just take my word that I answered all the questions correctly.TheScreamingEagles said:This explains his recent behaviour
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1063488219784912901
https://twitter.com/AP/status/10634909117479321600 -
The USA speaks English, the Canadians French, the Mexicans Spanish.williamglenn said:
Just to be clear, in this analogy the USA is the UK, and Mexico and Canada are the EU?rcs1000 said:
Correct.Charles said:
You just repudiate it unilaterallyGIN1138 said:
Which of course is what will happen...Xenon said:
Is there any way to get from phase 1 to phase 2?rpjs said:
It's Britain leaving the European Union. Which was the only thing on the referendum ballot paper and the only thing that there is an actual mandate for.AmpfieldAndy said:
With immigration undecided, trade unresolved, the common rule book over which we have no say foisted on us, NI left in limbo, the transition period length unresolved, how is that Brexit ?kle4 said:
It may be a bad deal, but it does have merits. To take the most obvious one for Brexiters, it ensures Brexit actually happens. That is still probable even without it, but not as certain is it was.AmpfieldAndy said:The Tories seem intent on gifting Corbyn the next election. Those sending in no confidence letters are a completely disorganised rabble with no idea what they want instead. Those supporting May are supporting an atrociously bad deal with no merits and to deliver which the Tories have abdicated their entire domestic policy agenda. It’s shameful.
The Withdrawal Agreement was always intended to be phase I of the disengagement, that's what "transition period" means. You can't disentangle forty years of economic integration overnight. Well you can, but your economy will crash and burn if you do.
I can imagine the EU can just tell us to get stuffed if we try to negotiate anything else.
Or they will let us go but we'll have to let them have Northern Ireland in the process, as outlined by Selmayr.
Take the hit (not that it will be much)
There is no mechanism for the United States to withdraw from NAFTA. But, you know what, if they decide they don't want to be in it, there's nothing that Mexico and Canada can do keep them.
So yes.
(And yes, I am being mischievous. Again.)0 -
Have they indeed? No chance of the DUP mollifying then.justin124 said:
I doubt that will worry them too much in terms of the bigger picture.The UUP have also rejected the deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The DUP in trouble tonight with their farmers and industry who have told them they have to back this deal and many are the DUP base supportersjustin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
Difficult to see the 23 MPs who have revealed that they have sent in letters to Brady not opposing the Deal. In addition, there would surely be - Boris, David Davis, John Redwood, Raab ,McVey plus a few others.Cyclefree said:
I wonder how much dirt the Tory Whips have on those 30 MPs........justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
Someone must have been doing all that bullying and sexual harassment we heard about a few weeks back.0 -
As I've always said, he's not the Jezziah.matt said:
Sensible pragmatism stopped when politics became a matter of religious belief.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
Listen to what EU leaders are saying today. They have come up with a fair deal. It is not perfect. It forms a basis for an orderly departure and building a future relationship. It keeps the Irish happy. It gives the UK quite a lot of what it wants. It seems a pragmatic way of balancing competing interests, especially given the limits which Britain placed on itself. If it is rejected, there is not going to be some magically different better deal pulled out of a hat somewhere.
Instead, in pursuit of some unattainable goal, some Tories are prepared to blow up their party and the country. They are prepared to take that risk, a risk which if it comes true will daamge others, many of whom will not be well able to protect themselves. They are little different from Marxist revolutionaries who want to destroy society so as to build their utopia. They really are beneath contempt.
I am not a Eurofanatic, by a very long measure. Quite the opposite in fact. But the more I have seen of the ERG in recent days, the more I prefer the EU.
Whatever happened to sensible pragmatism?0 -
Actually all this rejected deal talk is again before the final WDA treaty on Sunday week but more importantly the fleshed out political statement that will be published then.justin124 said:
I doubt that will worry them too much in terms of the bigger picture.The UUP have also rejected the deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The DUP in trouble tonight with their farmers and industry who have told them they have to back this deal and many are the DUP base supportersjustin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
Lots of knee jerk reaction and not enough wisdom to wait for the agreed treaty and political declaration.
But we have been having knee jerk reactions all week so somethings never change0 -
I think it quite possible that May's deal passes, but I don't think it would be a smooth path or comfortable for her afterwards. It would be like Major's "bastards" on steroids.Richard_Nabavi said:
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
I am fine with the Deal. It is clearly worse than Remain, but keeps the UK very closely aligned to EU regulations. In particular it prevent Fox from signing us up to exploitative trade relationshops of Trump etc. A vassal state of course, but at least one with a benign master.
-1 -
The trouble is that the rot has spread far wider amongst councillors and the membership, just as Labour's members are overwhelmingly Corbynite.OllyT said:
They have been dragging the party down for years we just have to hope that they don't take the country with it. With hindsight from Major to Cameron appeasing the Euro loons has been a major mistake. Should have let them all shuffle off and rot in UKIP with Reckless and Carswell.Cyclefree said:Tracey Crouch should be back in government. She seems to have some principles and cares about people.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.0 -
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the point where it is at serious risk of collapse, the Opposition will seek to bring that about. I imagine that some LibDems might like the opportunity to exact some revenge for the 2015 election!kle4 said:
What an asbolutely odious reason for not voting for a deal if they support it. This government would be dead anyway if a deal passes because the DUP won't back it (Yes they have implied about May specifically but that's because of the deal, so if it passes it seems very probable they would retaliate).justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
There are plenty of good reasons to vote against this deal, I don't know why anyone would need to reach for one like 'well, I'm in opposition and that is that' as though they are a robot who doesn't have to consider specific circumstances. I hope if the government announces something they like they refuse to back it because oppositions oppose.0 -
They were huuuge answers, the best answers ever.rcs1000 said:
I can't believe I failed this exam! Damn it, I answered every question perfectly. What? I had to hand the paper in as well? Ridiculous. The exam board should just take my word that I answered all the questions correctly.TheScreamingEagles said:This explains his recent behaviour
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1063488219784912901
https://twitter.com/AP/status/10634909117479321600 -
Benign?Foxy said:
I think it quite possible that May's deal passes, but I don't think it would be a smooth path or comfortable for her afterwards. It would be like Major's "bastards" on steroids.Richard_Nabavi said:
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
I am fine with the Deal. It is clearly worse than Remain, but keeps the UK very closely aligned to EU regulations. In particular it prevent Fox from signing us up to exploitative trade relationshops of Trump etc. A vassal state of course, but at least one with a benign master.
You are happy with being a vassal state ?0 -
Who else loyalist farmers going to vote for if not UUP or DUP? Sinn Féin?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not so sure. It is their core votejustin124 said:
I doubt that will worry them too much in terms of the bigger picture.The UUP have also rejected the deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The DUP in trouble tonight with their farmers and industry who have told them they have to back this deal and many are the DUP base supportersjustin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
I agree on both counts.Foxy said:
I think it quite possible that May's deal passes, but I don't think it would be a smooth path or comfortable for her afterwards. It would be like Major's "bastards" on steroids.Richard_Nabavi said:
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
I am fine with the Deal. It is clearly worse than Remain, but keeps the UK very closely aligned to EU regulations. In particular it prevent Fox from signing us up to exploitative trade relationshops of Trump etc. A vassal state of course, but at least one with a benign master.
IMO, the most likely scenario right now is that this deal passes, and that there is an election by the end of next summer. I doubt the DUP are just going to sit by and continue propping up the government if they consider the Tories to have "betrayed" them.0 -
If a country is treaty bound to accept and enter into law directives from unelected bureaucrats, under penalty of unlimited fines, is that what makes it a vassal state?Floater said:
Benign?Foxy said:
I think it quite possible that May's deal passes, but I don't think it would be a smooth path or comfortable for her afterwards. It would be like Major's "bastards" on steroids.Richard_Nabavi said:
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
I am fine with the Deal. It is clearly worse than Remain, but keeps the UK very closely aligned to EU regulations. In particular it prevent Fox from signing us up to exploitative trade relationshops of Trump etc. A vassal state of course, but at least one with a benign master.
You are happy with being a vassal state ?0 -
There are quite a few positives for Labour if this deal were to get through - the Tories split (formally or just in practice), remainers and leavers who wanted a better deal can be told Labour would have gotten either, as necessary, they don't share in the blame at all for the future problems - but I cannot see the justification for taking a positive decision one way or another. They have to vote it down if they are going to argue they tried to get a better deal or a vote.ydoethur said:
At what point would Corbyn be better off ordering abstention? (Actually, silly question, he'd be better off doing it now.) If Labour has significant numbers in both lobbies and absent surely sending the lot in a quiet weekend retreat to Whitehaven is the smart move?Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
No, I would rather Remain part of the decision making bodies, but better the EU for a master than Trump and predatory US agribusiness etc. I dont'trust the Tories on workers, consumers, and environmental rights either, as the EU has been generally good with these.Floater said:
Benign?Foxy said:
I think it quite possible that May's deal passes, but I don't think it would be a smooth path or comfortable for her afterwards. It would be like Major's "bastards" on steroids.Richard_Nabavi said:
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
I am fine with the Deal. It is clearly worse than Remain, but keeps the UK very closely aligned to EU regulations. In particular it prevent Fox from signing us up to exploitative trade relationshops of Trump etc. A vassal state of course, but at least one with a benign master.
You are happy with being a vassal state ?0 -
I'm now starting to agree with Richard Nabavi's opinion, that the ideal solution for Labour is for their official position to be against the deal, but enough rebel MPs for the deal to pass.kle4 said:
There are quite a few positives for Labour if this deal were to get through - the Tories split (formally or just in practice), remainers and leavers who wanted a better deal can be told Labour would have gotten either, as necessary, they don't share in the blame at all for the future problems - but I cannot see the justification for taking a positive decision one way or another. They have to vote it down if they are going to argue they tried to get a better deal or a vote.ydoethur said:
At what point would Corbyn be better off ordering abstention? (Actually, silly question, he'd be better off doing it now.) If Labour has significant numbers in both lobbies and absent surely sending the lot in a quiet weekend retreat to Whitehaven is the smart move?Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
+1 which is why the Procedure Cttee's advice to allow and vote on amendments to the motion first is key. There needs to be something to create the ability for the no-voters to move or abstain. If it isn't tweaks from the EU to the backstop, it has to be voting down the alternatives first.Richard_Nabavi said:
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
A man who dishonestly promised to cancel student debt and renationalise utilities free of charge needs to justify his actions?kle4 said:
There are quite a few positives for Labour if this deal were to get through - the Tories split (formally or just in practice), remainers and leavers who wanted a better deal can be told Labour would have gotten either, as necessary, they don't share in the blame at all for the future problems - but I cannot see the justification for taking a positive decision one way or another. They have to vote it down if they are going to argue they tried to get a better deal or a vote.ydoethur said:
At what point would Corbyn be better off ordering abstention? (Actually, silly question, he'd be better off doing it now.) If Labour has significant numbers in both lobbies and absent surely sending the lot in a quiet weekend retreat to Whitehaven is the smart move?Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
There are several ways to bring about its collapse. Brexit is more important than which party is in power. And do you think a Tory party which had to rely on dozens of Labour votes (or abstentions) to pass a Brexit deal which dozens of Tories think is a traitorous betrayal would not be imminently close to collapse?justin124 said:
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the point where it is at serious risk of collapse, the Opposition will seek to bring that about. I imagine that some LibDems might like the opportunity to exact some revenge for the 2015 election!kle4 said:
What an asbolutely odious reason for not voting for a deal if they support it. This government would be dead anyway if a deal passes because the DUP won't back it (Yes they have implied about May specifically but that's because of the deal, so if it passes it seems very probable they would retaliate).justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
There are plenty of good reasons to vote against this deal, I don't know why anyone would need to reach for one like 'well, I'm in opposition and that is that' as though they are a robot who doesn't have to consider specific circumstances. I hope if the government announces something they like they refuse to back it because oppositions oppose.
0 -
They will ream UK when it comes to trade deal and we will be stuck there forever having to do as they order or dump NI. Tory twerps are loading the gun and handing it to them.kle4 said:
If we cannot renegotiate neither can they. Surely the EU is not trying to cherry pick?RobD said:I'm moving firmly into the f*** 'em camp...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/16/eu-seek-brexit-concessions-fishing-tax-stop-uk-gaining-competitive/0 -
And tell me how plunging the Country into a financial and constitutional crisis helps.justin124 said:
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the point where it is at serious risk of collapse, the Opposition will seek to bring that about. I imagine that some LibDems might like the opportunity to exact some revenge for the 2015 election!kle4 said:
What an asbolutely odious reason for not voting for a deal if they support it. This government would be dead anyway if a deal passes because the DUP won't back it (Yes they have implied about May specifically but that's because of the deal, so if it passes it seems very probable they would retaliate).justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
There are plenty of good reasons to vote against this deal, I don't know why anyone would need to reach for one like 'well, I'm in opposition and that is that' as though they are a robot who doesn't have to consider specific circumstances. I hope if the government announces something they like they refuse to back it because oppositions oppose.
Are you ready for rocketing interest rates, mortgage rates and the economic collapse that follows hurting the poorest and throwing thousands out of work0 -
Hmmm. I agree with much of what you say (although I can't consider that nutter Selmayr to be 'benign') but with regard to 'predatory agribusiness,' I offer you two words (or an acronym and a word) - 'BSE crisis.'Foxy said:
No, I would rather Remain part of the decision making bodies, but better the EU for a master than Trump and predatory US agribusiness etc. I dont'trust the Tories on workers, consumers, and environmental rights either, as the EU has been generally good with these.Floater said:
Benign?Foxy said:
I think it quite possible that May's deal passes, but I don't think it would be a smooth path or comfortable for her afterwards. It would be like Major's "bastards" on steroids.Richard_Nabavi said:
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
I am fine with the Deal. It is clearly worse than Remain, but keeps the UK very closely aligned to EU regulations. In particular it prevent Fox from signing us up to exploitative trade relationshops of Trump etc. A vassal state of course, but at least one with a benign master.
You are happy with being a vassal state ?0 -
I know the know lots of words....I know the best words...I have the best answers....I get huggggeeee test scores....what do you mean that isn't correct....40%....It was near complete perfect score...TheScreamingEagles said:This explains his recent behaviour
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1063488219784912901
https://twitter.com/AP/status/10634909117479321600 -
G, I am afraid there are only so many ways you can polish a turd, it will not look any better next week.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Actually all this rejected deal talk is again before the final WDA treaty on Sunday week but more importantly the fleshed out political statement that will be published then.justin124 said:
I doubt that will worry them too much in terms of the bigger picture.The UUP have also rejected the deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The DUP in trouble tonight with their farmers and industry who have told them they have to back this deal and many are the DUP base supportersjustin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
Lots of knee jerk reaction and not enough wisdom to wait for the agreed treaty and political declaration.
But we have been having knee jerk reactions all week so somethings never change0 -
I've suspected that was Labour's best outcome for awhile, given their own (pretty smart) ambiguous Brexit position.Danny565 said:
I'm now starting to agree with Richard Nabavi's opinion, that the ideal solution for Labour is for their official position to be against the deal, but enough rebel MPs for the deal to pass.kle4 said:
There are quite a few positives for Labour if this deal were to get through - the Tories split (formally or just in practice), remainers and leavers who wanted a better deal can be told Labour would have gotten either, as necessary, they don't share in the blame at all for the future problems - but I cannot see the justification for taking a positive decision one way or another. They have to vote it down if they are going to argue they tried to get a better deal or a vote.ydoethur said:
At what point would Corbyn be better off ordering abstention? (Actually, silly question, he'd be better off doing it now.) If Labour has significant numbers in both lobbies and absent surely sending the lot in a quiet weekend retreat to Whitehaven is the smart move?Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
Unfortunately the Tories are so incompetent that too many of them are likely to vote against for it to pass even with a non suspicious number of Labour rebels, who as a result are not jumping on board!0 -
I thought that was their positionDanny565 said:
I'm now starting to agree with Richard Nabavi's opinion, that the ideal solution for Labour is for their official position to be against the deal, but enough rebel MPs for the deal to pass.kle4 said:
There are quite a few positives for Labour if this deal were to get through - the Tories split (formally or just in practice), remainers and leavers who wanted a better deal can be told Labour would have gotten either, as necessary, they don't share in the blame at all for the future problems - but I cannot see the justification for taking a positive decision one way or another. They have to vote it down if they are going to argue they tried to get a better deal or a vote.ydoethur said:
At what point would Corbyn be better off ordering abstention? (Actually, silly question, he'd be better off doing it now.) If Labour has significant numbers in both lobbies and absent surely sending the lot in a quiet weekend retreat to Whitehaven is the smart move?Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
At the end of the day this Brexit mess owes almost everything to the internal politics of the Tory party stretching back many years. No reason for Labour - or the other opposition parties - to help them in any way.kle4 said:
There are several ways to bring about its collapse. Brexit is more important than which party is in power. And do you think a Tory party which had to rely on dozens of Labour votes (or abstentions) to pass a Brexit deal which dozens of Tories think is a traitorous betrayal would not be imminently close to collapse?justin124 said:
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the point where it is at serious risk of collapse, the Opposition will seek to bring that about. I imagine that some LibDems might like the opportunity to exact some revenge for the 2015 election!kle4 said:
What an asbolutely odious reason for not voting for a deal if they support it. This government would be dead anyway if a deal passes because the DUP won't back it (Yes they have implied about May specifically but that's because of the deal, so if it passes it seems very probable they would retaliate).justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
There are plenty of good reasons to vote against this deal, I don't know why anyone would need to reach for one like 'well, I'm in opposition and that is that' as though they are a robot who doesn't have to consider specific circumstances. I hope if the government announces something they like they refuse to back it because oppositions oppose.0 -
Posted without further comment:
http://www.twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/10634917819443609600 -
Is it the 77th position?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I thought that was their positionDanny565 said:
I'm now starting to agree with Richard Nabavi's opinion, that the ideal solution for Labour is for their official position to be against the deal, but enough rebel MPs for the deal to pass.kle4 said:
There are quite a few positives for Labour if this deal were to get through - the Tories split (formally or just in practice), remainers and leavers who wanted a better deal can be told Labour would have gotten either, as necessary, they don't share in the blame at all for the future problems - but I cannot see the justification for taking a positive decision one way or another. They have to vote it down if they are going to argue they tried to get a better deal or a vote.ydoethur said:
At what point would Corbyn be better off ordering abstention? (Actually, silly question, he'd be better off doing it now.) If Labour has significant numbers in both lobbies and absent surely sending the lot in a quiet weekend retreat to Whitehaven is the smart move?Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
0 -
It was our own predatory agribusiness that led to BSE.ydoethur said:
Hmmm. I agree with much of what you say (although I can't consider that nutter Selmayr to be 'benign') but with regard to 'predatory agribusiness,' I offer you two words (or an acronym and a word) - 'BSE crisis.'Foxy said:
No, I would rather Remain part of the decision making bodies, but better the EU for a master than Trump and predatory US agribusiness etc. I dont'trust the Tories on workers, consumers, and environmental rights either, as the EU has been generally good with these.Floater said:
Benign?Foxy said:
I think it quite possible that May's deal passes, but I don't think it would be a smooth path or comfortable for her afterwards. It would be like Major's "bastards" on steroids.Richard_Nabavi said:
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
I am fine with the Deal. It is clearly worse than Remain, but keeps the UK very closely aligned to EU regulations. In particular it prevent Fox from signing us up to exploitative trade relationshops of Trump etc. A vassal state of course, but at least one with a benign master.
You are happy with being a vassal state ?0 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0Beverley_C said:FPT:
The French are looking really good compared to this shower. Maybe the ERG should order up cheese and surrender ....Alanbrooke said:
theyre french ?Beverley_C said:
If it gets voted down without them in control then who needs the ERG? They need to look like they are in charge. The problem is, as Mike has pointed out, that if they fail, then they comprehensively prove that they are nothing more than a bunch of fantasists with delusions of grandeur.Richard_Nabavi said:The ERGers do sound quite remarkably rattled. Why the panic, if The Deal is certain to be voted down anyway, as they claim?
0 -
Nooo...I was thinking more of the French having a worse epidemic than us and the EU imposing a very dubious ban on our beef exports to appease their farming unions.Foxy said:
It was our own predatory agribusiness that led to BSE.ydoethur said:
Hmmm. I agree with much of what you say (although I can't consider that nutter Selmayr to be 'benign') but with regard to 'predatory agribusiness,' I offer you two words (or an acronym and a word) - 'BSE crisis.'Foxy said:
No, I would rather Remain part of the decision making bodies, but better the EU for a master than Trump and predatory US agribusiness etc. I dont'trust the Tories on workers, consumers, and environmental rights either, as the EU has been generally good with these.Floater said:
Benign?Foxy said:
I think it quite possible that May's deal passes, but I don't think it would be a smooth path or comfortable for her afterwards. It would be like Major's "bastards" on steroids.Richard_Nabavi said:
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
I am fine with the Deal. It is clearly worse than Remain, but keeps the UK very closely aligned to EU regulations. In particular it prevent Fox from signing us up to exploitative trade relationshops of Trump etc. A vassal state of course, but at least one with a benign master.
You are happy with being a vassal state ?0 -
It's not about helping the Tories! It's about whether they think this deal is the best we can do, even if it is crap. If that happens to help the Tories that's unfortunate. But people rebel sometimes for good reasons, even if it helps the other side. Corbyn himself knows that, goodness knows he rebelled enough.justin124 said:
At the end of the day this Brexit mess owes almost everything to the internal politics of the Tory party stretching back many years. No reason for Labour - or the other opposition parties - to help them in any way.kle4 said:
There are several ways to bring about its collapse. Brexit is more important than which party is in power. And do you think a Tory party which had to rely on dozens of Labour votes (or abstentions) to pass a Brexit deal which dozens of Tories think is a traitorous betrayal would not be imminently close to collapse?justin124 said:
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the point where it is at serious risk of collapse, the Opposition will seek to bring that about. I imagine that some LibDems might like the opportunity to exact some revenge for the 2015 election!kle4 said:
What an asbolutely odious reason for not voting for a deal if they support it. This government would be dead anyway if a deal passes because the DUP won't back it (Yes they have implied about May specifically but that's because of the deal, so if it passes it seems very probable they would retaliate).justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
There are plenty of good reasons to vote against this deal, I don't know why anyone would need to reach for one like 'well, I'm in opposition and that is that' as though they are a robot who doesn't have to consider specific circumstances. I hope if the government announces something they like they refuse to back it because oppositions oppose.
I know Brexit has been hugely impacted because of internal Tory politics, but the decision is still ultimately for the Commons as whole, and sticking one to the Tory even at the cost of themselves if things go wrong, is very short sighted indeed.0 -
The great British public might not see it that wayjustin124 said:
At the end of the day this Brexit mess owes almost everything to the internal politics of the Tory party stretching back many years. No reason for Labour - or the other opposition parties - to help them in any way.kle4 said:
There are several ways to bring about its collapse. Brexit is more important than which party is in power. And do you think a Tory party which had to rely on dozens of Labour votes (or abstentions) to pass a Brexit deal which dozens of Tories think is a traitorous betrayal would not be imminently close to collapse?justin124 said:
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the point where it is at serious risk of collapse, the Opposition will seek to bring that about. I imagine that some LibDems might like the opportunity to exact some revenge for the 2015 election!kle4 said:
What an asbolutely odious reason for not voting for a deal if they support it. This government would be dead anyway if a deal passes because the DUP won't back it (Yes they have implied about May specifically but that's because of the deal, so if it passes it seems very probable they would retaliate).justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
There are plenty of good reasons to vote against this deal, I don't know why anyone would need to reach for one like 'well, I'm in opposition and that is that' as though they are a robot who doesn't have to consider specific circumstances. I hope if the government announces something they like they refuse to back it because oppositions oppose.0 -
** Bangs head on table **shiney2 said:
Point of Order: they are supporting the last Tory Manifesto. MrsMay is a having a problem with that.. And also the 84% of tory members that support actually leaving the EU.Cyclefree said:It is not MY
It is not May and Hammond wanting a crash out deal. It is the ERG, who are doing everything they can to undermine the government they claim to support at a critical time.TGOHF said:
Depends entirely how they manage it - one led by May / Hammond would be toxic.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
Britain would be leaving the EU under this deal.
The EU - like any counterparty - is not obliged to follow the Tory manifesto. The PM has tried, within the limits of what is possible, sought to get a deal to implement the referendum in a way that minimises damage to the country. She has certainly made many errors along the way which have limited her room for manoeuvre. But she has got something which seems to be a start. Probably its biggest value is that it would enable the country to start the process of patiently repairing its relationship with the EU and, with luck, moving it onto a more stable and mutually rewarding basis, albeit different.
The ERG seem to me to be like small children shouting “I want!” and expecting to get. Well, it’s about time someone tells Rees-Mogg and friends (since his nanny has clearly forgotten to do so) that “I want doesn’t get”.
And I have to say that this focus on the manifesto as if it were Holy Writ reminds me of nothing so much as Labour left-wingers in the 1970’s berating Labour governments for not having obeyed conference even when doing so clashed with real life. ERG = Militant Tendency in suits.0 -
A constitutional crisis would be part of the politics - and the Tories would deserve more blame than any other party for having brought us to such a position.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And tell me how plunging the Country into a financial and constitutional crisis helps.justin124 said:
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the point where it is at serious risk of collapse, the Opposition will seek to bring that about. I imagine that some LibDems might like the opportunity to exact some revenge for the 2015 election!kle4 said:
What an asbolutely odious reason for not voting for a deal if they support it. This government would be dead anyway if a deal passes because the DUP won't back it (Yes they have implied about May specifically but that's because of the deal, so if it passes it seems very probable they would retaliate).justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
There are plenty of good reasons to vote against this deal, I don't know why anyone would need to reach for one like 'well, I'm in opposition and that is that' as though they are a robot who doesn't have to consider specific circumstances. I hope if the government announces something they like they refuse to back it because oppositions oppose.
Are you ready for rocketing interest rates, mortgage rates and the economic collapse that follows hurting the poorest and throwing thousands out of work
As for the economic consequences , we have been here before as evidenced by the scaremongering of Cameron & Osborne prior to the Referendum. Such tactics persuaded me to Vote Leave - and I have no regrets.I do predict,though, that interest rates will not be shooting up.0 -
I think even if they disagreed with them on almost everything else, a fair-minded Remainer would have to concede that the "euroloons" had, at a relatively early stage, correctly drawn at least one important insight - that the British population were not comfortable with the extent of integration that the European Union represented, nor with its likely future direction of travel.OllyT said:They have been dragging the party down for years we just have to hope that they don't take the country with it. With hindsight from Major to Cameron appeasing the Euro loons has been a major mistake. Should have let them all shuffle off and rot in UKIP with Reckless and Carswell.
If the implications of that insight had been realised earlier by those who matter, and appropriate action to address them had been taken, we wouldn't be in our current mess. You might think that that should have involved the government / Tory leadership stuffing pro-EU propaganda relentlessly down the voters' throats until they got with with the programme. You might think that there should have been a treaty referendum, perhaps as early as Maastrict, that may have limited the depth or speed of European integration to something the British populace were more comfortable with.
For what it's worth, I do think any attempt at forging the 1990s Tory party into a clear-cut pro-EU integration force would have been doomed to failure. Not just the internecine civil war that the purge would have required, but the sustainability of a scenario in which the Tories, New Labour and Lib Dems were all dead keen on Britain joining the euro when the electorate were not even on-board with the existing level of integration. I don't know if donors or voters would have tolerated that kind of undemocratic "Establishment" set-up, and it would have left a big political vacuum sitting wide open for the expunged Tory elements to attack, particularly if Britain had ended up going through the heat of a eurozone referendum. There would have been a significant chance of the Canadian scenario where the Tory daughter-party supersedes the original one.0 -
How do you defend a collapsing poundjustin124 said:
A constitutional crisis would be part of the politics - and the Tories would deserve more blame than any other party for having brought us to such a position.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And tell me how plunging the Country into a financial and constitutional crisis helps.justin124 said:
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the point where it is at serious risk of collapse, the Opposition will seek to bring that about. I imagine that some LibDems might like the opportunity to exact some revenge for the 2015 election!kle4 said:
What an asbolutely odious reason for not voting for a deal if they support it. This government would be dead anyway if a deal passes because the DUP won't back it (Yes they have implied about May specifically but that's because of the deal, so if it passes it seems very probable they would retaliate).justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
There are plenty of good reasons to vote against this deal, I don't know why anyone would need to reach for one like 'well, I'm in opposition and that is that' as though they are a robot who doesn't have to consider specific circumstances. I hope if the government announces something they like they refuse to back it because oppositions oppose.
Are you ready for rocketing interest rates, mortgage rates and the economic collapse that follows hurting the poorest and throwing thousands out of work
As for the economic consequences , we have been here before as evidenced by the scaremongering of Cameron & Osborne prior to the Referendum. Such tactics persuaded me to Vote Leave - and I have no regrets.I do predict,though, that interest rates will not be shooting up.0 -
One of the more frustrating parts of the past few days is we seem to be arguing over the acceptableness of having a transitional period at all once again, with the talk of unacceptableness of things that apply within it.Cyclefree said:
** Bangs head on table **shiney2 said:
Point of Order: they are supporting the last Tory Manifesto. MrsMay is a having a problem with that.. And also the 84% of tory members that support actually leaving the EU.Cyclefree said:It is not MY
It is not May and Hammond wanting a crash out deal. It is the ERG, who are doing everything they can to undermine the government they claim to support at a critical time.TGOHF said:
Depends entirely how they manage it - one led by May / Hammond would be toxic.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
Britain would be leaving the EU under this deal.
The big fear that this could not be unpicked over time if we do not get it right in the first place I find more reasonable, if a bit defeatist.0 -
I think you're right. I've just been thinking of any administration that looks more tawdry than todays Tories and apart from Trump's I couldn't think of oneFoxy said:
No, I would rather Remain part of the decision making bodies, but better the EU for a master than Trump and predatory US agribusiness etc. I dont'trust the Tories on workers, consumers, and environmental rights either, as the EU has been generally good with these.Floater said:
Benign?Foxy said:
I think it quite possible that May's deal passes, but I don't think it would be a smooth path or comfortable for her afterwards. It would be like Major's "bastards" on steroids.Richard_Nabavi said:
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
I am fine with the Deal. It is clearly worse than Remain, but keeps the UK very closely aligned to EU regulations. In particular it prevent Fox from signing us up to exploitative trade relationshops of Trump etc. A vassal state of course, but at least one with a benign master.
You are happy with being a vassal state ?0 -
"that the British population were not comfortable with the extent of integration that the European Union represented, nor with its likely future direction of travel."MyBurningEars said:
I think even if they disagreed with them on almost everything else, a fair-minded Remainer would have to concede that the "euroloons" had, at a relatively early stage, correctly drawn at least one important insight - that the British population were not comfortable with the extent of integration that the European Union represented, nor with its likely future direction of travel.OllyT said:They have been dragging the party down for years we just have to hope that they don't take the country with it. With hindsight from Major to Cameron appeasing the Euro loons has been a major mistake. Should have let them all shuffle off and rot in UKIP with Reckless and Carswell.
If the implications of that insight had been realised earlier by those who matter, and appropriate action to address them had been taken, we wouldn't be in our current mess. You might think that that should have involved the government / Tory leadership stuffing pro-EU propaganda relentlessly down the voters' throats until they got with with the programme. You might think that there should have been a treaty referendum, perhaps as early as Maastrict, that may have limited the depth or speed of European integration to something the British populace were more comfortable with.
For what it's worth, I do think any attempt at forging the 1990s Tory party into a clear-cut pro-EU integration force would have been doomed to failure. Not just the internecine civil war that the purge would have required, but the sustainability of a scenario in which the Tories, New Labour and Lib Dems were all dead keen on Britain joining the euro when the electorate were not even on-board with the existing level of integration. I don't know if donors or voters would have tolerated that kind of undemocratic "Establishment" set-up, and it would have left a big political vacuum sitting wide open for the expunged Tory elements to attack, particularly if Britain had ended up going through the heat of a eurozone referendum. There would have been a significant chance of the Canadian scenario where the Tory daughter-party supersedes the original one.
But they also fed that view with a series of lies and exaggerations, along with what can now be seen as a totally unrealistic and unworkable view of the alternative.0 -
And were told that at the time Josias.JosiasJessop said:
"that the British population were not comfortable with the extent of integration that the European Union represented, nor with its likely future direction of travel."MyBurningEars said:
I think even if they disagreed with them on almost everything else, a fair-minded Remainer would have to concede that the "euroloons" had, at a relatively early stage, correctly drawn at least one important insight - that the British population were not comfortable with the extent of integration that the European Union represented, nor with its likely future direction of travel.OllyT said:They have been dragging the party down for years we just have to hope that they don't take the country with it. With hindsight from Major to Cameron appeasing the Euro loons has been a major mistake. Should have let them all shuffle off and rot in UKIP with Reckless and Carswell.
If the implications of that insight had been realised earlier by those who matter, and appropriate action to address them had been taken, we wouldn't be in our current mess. You might think that that should have involved the government / Tory leadership stuffing pro-EU propaganda relentlessly down the voters' throats until they got with with the programme. You might think that there should have been a treaty referendum, perhaps as early as Maastrict, that may have limited the depth or speed of European integration to something the British populace were more comfortable with.
For what it's worth, I do think any attempt at forging the 1990s Tory party into a clear-cut pro-EU integration force would have been doomed to failure. Not just the internecine civil war that the purge would have required, but the sustainability of a scenario in which the Tories, New Labour and Lib Dems were all dead keen on Britain joining the euro when the electorate were not even on-board with the existing level of integration. I don't know if donors or voters would have tolerated that kind of undemocratic "Establishment" set-up, and it would have left a big political vacuum sitting wide open for the expunged Tory elements to attack, particularly if Britain had ended up going through the heat of a eurozone referendum. There would have been a significant chance of the Canadian scenario where the Tory daughter-party supersedes the original one.
But they also fed that view with a series of lies and exaggerations, along with what can now be seen as a totally unrealistic and unworkable view of the alternative.0 -
I don't accept the premise that any decision made in the coming weeks re-the deal is irreversible. A new Government that was in no way beholden to the DUP could start afresh , and - whatever the EU might say at this time - I believe they would respond to such a new approach.kle4 said:
It's not about helping the Tories! It's about whether they think this deal is the best we can do, even if it is crap. If that happens to help the Tories that's unfortunate. But people rebel sometimes for good reasons, even if it helps the other side. Corbyn himself knows that, goodness knows he rebelled enough.justin124 said:
At the end of the day this Brexit mess owes almost everything to the internal politics of the Tory party stretching back many years. No reason for Labour - or the other opposition parties - to help them in any way.kle4 said:
There are several ways to bring about its collapse. Brexit is more important than which party is in power. And do you think a Tory party which had to rely on dozens of Labour votes (or abstentions) to pass a Brexit deal which dozens of Tories think is a traitorous betrayal would not be imminently close to collapse?justin124 said:
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the point where it is at serious risk of collapse, the Opposition will seek to bring that about. I imagine that some LibDems might like the opportunity to exact some revenge for the 2015 election!kle4 said:
What an asbolutely odious reason for not voting for a deal if they support it. This government would be dead anyway if a deal passes because the DUP won't back it (Yes they have implied about May specifically but that's because of the deal, so if it passes it seems very probable they would retaliate).justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
.
I know Brexit has been hugely impacted because of internal Tory politics, but the decision is still ultimately for the Commons as whole, and sticking one to the Tory even at the cost of themselves if things go wrong, is very short sighted indeed.0 -
Sorry, I don't quite follow: were told what?kle4 said:
And were told that at the time Josias.JosiasJessop said:
"that the British population were not comfortable with the extent of integration that the European Union represented, nor with its likely future direction of travel."MyBurningEars said:
I think even if they disagreed with them on almost everything else, a fair-minded Remainer would have to concede that the "euroloons" had, at a relatively early stage, correctly drawn at least one important insight - that the British population were not comfortable with the extent of integration that the European Union represented, nor with its likely future direction of travel.OllyT said:They have been dragging the party down for years we just have to hope that they don't take the country with it. With hindsight from Major to Cameron appeasing the Euro loons has been a major mistake. Should have let them all shuffle off and rot in UKIP with Reckless and Carswell.
If the implications of that insight had been realised earlier by those who matter, and appropriate action to address them had been taken, we wouldn't be in our current mess. You might think that that should have involved the government / Tory leadership stuffing pro-EU propaganda relentlessly down the voters' throats until they got with with the programme. You might think that there should have been a treaty referendum, perhaps as early as Maastrict, that may have limited the depth or speed of European integration to something the British populace were more comfortable with.
For what it's worth, I do think any attempt at forging the 1990s Tory party into a clear-cut pro-EU integration force would have been doomed to failure. Not just the internecine civil war that the purge would have required, but the sustainability of a scenario in which the Tories, New Labour and Lib Dems were all dead keen on Britain joining the euro when the electorate were not even on-board with the existing level of integration. I don't know if donors or voters would have tolerated that kind of undemocratic "Establishment" set-up, and it would have left a big political vacuum sitting wide open for the expunged Tory elements to attack, particularly if Britain had ended up going through the heat of a eurozone referendum. There would have been a significant chance of the Canadian scenario where the Tory daughter-party supersedes the original one.
But they also fed that view with a series of lies and exaggerations, along with what can now be seen as a totally unrealistic and unworkable view of the alternative.0 -
next you'll be telling me you believe MrsMay on taking back control of our money laws and borders.Cyclefree said:
** Bangs head on table **shiney2 said:
Point of Order: they are supporting the last Tory Manifesto. MrsMay is a having a problem with that.. And also the 84% of tory members that support actually leaving the EU.Cyclefree said:It is not MY
It is not May and Hammond wanting a crash out deal. It is the ERG, who are doing everything they can to undermine the government they claim to support at a critical time.TGOHF said:
Depends entirely how they manage it - one led by May / Hammond would be toxic.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
Britain would be leaving the EU under this deal.
I understand two DExu secretaries did that. both found out it was bollocks.
0 -
Just seen Steve Baker interviewed. We may have the letters, we may not, people put in letters, people withdraw them, only Graham Brady knows
Give me strength0 -
I don't think a constructive post Brexit relationship with the EU can occur while the Tories are so split, unless they transform back into the pro European party of Heath and Thatcher.Cyclefree said:
** Bangs head on table **shiney2 said:
Point of Order: they are supporting the last Tory Manifesto. MrsMay is a having a problem with that.. And also the 84% of tory members that support actually leaving the EU.Cyclefree said:It is not MY
It is not May and Hammond wanting a crash out deal. It is the ERG, who are doing everything they can to undermine the government they claim to support at a critical time.TGOHF said:
Depends entirely how they manage it - one led by May / Hammond would be toxic.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
Britain would be leaving the EU under this deal.
The EU - like any counterparty - is not obliged to follow the Tory manifesto. The PM has tried, within the limits of what is possible, sought to get a deal to implement the referendum in a way that minimises damage to the country. She has certainly made many errors along the way which have limited her room for manoeuvre. But she has got something which seems to be a start. Probably its biggest value is that it would enable the country to start the process of patiently repairing its relationship with the EU and, with luck, moving it onto a more stable and mutually rewarding basis, albeit different.
The ERG seem to me to be like small children shouting “I want!” and expecting to get. Well, it’s about time someone tells Rees-Mogg and friends (since his nanny has clearly forgotten to do so) that “I want doesn’t get”.
And I have to say that this focus on the manifesto as if it were Holy Writ reminds me of nothing so much as Labour left-wingers in the 1970’s berating Labour governments for not having obeyed conference even when doing so clashed with real life. ERG = Militant Tendency in suits.
Labour should be fine at being constructive though, being less bothered by immigration and closely aligned in terms of interests of workers, consumers and environment. The difficulty of a Labour government would be domestic economic folly, but we are getting used to shooting ourselves in the feet now, might as well let them have both barrels.0 -
He does the Hokey KokeyBig_G_NorthWales said:Just seen Steve Baker interviewed. We may have the letters, we may not, people put in letters, people withdraw them, only Graham Brady knows
Give me strength0 -
I'm not saying it is irreversible (though I think it would be hard - edit and would point out that hoping the EU will respond differently and be more amenable is the same as the Leave campaign saying it would be simple and easy). If Labour MPs want to vote against on the basis that they think a new approach is viable I might disagree with that stance but it is perfectly defendable. But if their main reason is 'I won't support the government' that is tremendously weak, and showing incorrect priorities. That should be a beneficial happenstance of doing what they think is right, not the reason they take the action even though they might think the deal is right, or the best that can be managed.justin124 said:
I don't accept the premise that any decision made in the coming weeks re-the deal is irreversible. A new Government that was in no way beholden to the DUP could start afresh , and - whatever the EU might say at this time - I believe they would respond to such a new approach.0 -
Exactly. To many Tories Brexit is the Revealed Truth and any criticism of it is sacrilege. They are just as obsessive and self-righteous as the Corbyn cultists, even more so perhaps.matt said:
Sensible pragmatism stopped when politics became a matter of religious belief.Cyclefree said:
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?TGOHF said:
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.Cyclefree said:
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
Listen to what EU leaders are saying today. They have come up with a fair deal. It is not perfect. It forms a basis for an orderly departure and building a future relationship. It keeps the Irish happy. It gives the UK quite a lot of what it wants. It seems a pragmatic way of balancing competing interests, especially given the limits which Britain placed on itself. If it is rejected, there is not going to be some magically different better deal pulled out of a hat somewhere.
Instead, in pursuit of some unattainable goal, some Tories are prepared to blow up their party and the country. They are prepared to take that risk, a risk which if it comes true will daamge others, many of whom will not be well able to protect themselves. They are little different from Marxist revolutionaries who want to destroy society so as to build their utopia. They really are beneath contempt.
I am not a Eurofanatic, by a very long measure. Quite the opposite in fact. But the more I have seen of the ERG in recent days, the more I prefer the EU.
Whatever happened to sensible pragmatism?0 -
justin124 said:
You do know this is an International Treaty with all the legality that implies.kle4 said:
I don't accept the premise that any decision made in the coming weeks re-the deal is irreversible. A new Government that was in no way beholden to the DUP could start afresh , and - whatever the EU might say at this time - I believe they would respond to such a new approach.justin124 said:
It's not about helping the Tories! It's about whether they think this deal is the best we can do, even if it is crap. If that happens to help the Tories that's unfortunate. But people rebel sometimes for good reasons, even if it helps the other side. Corbyn himself knows that, goodness knows he rebelled enough.kle4 said:
At the end of the day this Brexit mess owes almost everything to the internal politics of the Tory party stretching back many years. No reason for Labour - or the other opposition parties - to help them in any way.justin124 said:
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the pointkle4 said:
What an asbolutely odious reason for not voting for a deal if they support it. This government would be dead anyway if a deal passes because the DUP won't back it (Yes they have implied about May specifically but that's because of the deal, so if it passes it seems very probable they would retaliate).justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
.
I know Brexit has been hugely impacted because of internal Tory politics, but the decision is still ultimately for the Commons as whole, and sticking one to the Tory even at the cost of themselves if things go wrong, is very short sighted indeed.
If you think the EU will reopen the treaty you are very misguided0 -
Starting afresh will take years. Not only will that cause more uncertainty, there is no guarantee that the result will be any better.justin124 said:I don't accept the premise that any decision made in the coming weeks re-the deal is irreversible. A new Government that was in no way beholden to the DUP could start afresh , and - whatever the EU might say at this time - I believe they would respond to such a new approach.
Your last clause is one of hope based on what is politically convenient for you: I see no reason why the EU should respond positively to such an approach. (From their perspective) we're mucking them around a lot as it is.
And it's not as if both we and they have other important things to get on with, which are getting subsumed by Brexit.
We need to get this over and done with.0 -
We were told that the promises were unrealistic and unworkable. The validity of those statements are more apparent now, but if one side exaggerates, and the other side points that out, and the people still choose a certain way, they were still told and it isn't that new information.JosiasJessop said:
Sorry, I don't quite follow: were told what?0 -
How long before the ERG loons try and depose Brady as chair of the 1922 comittee ?0
-
The thoughts of Paul Masterton, one of the Brexit Mutineers as labelled by the Telegraph:
https://twitter.com/pm4eastren/status/1063501819236835329?s=210 -
I think it unlikely that sterling would 'collapse' - the currency has already weakened significantly as a result of the Referendum outcome. Uncertainty is what the markets most dislike - but I suspect that any weakness is largely in the price we see today. Moreover, the sharp fall in the pound in late June 2016 did not prevent the Bank of England from cutting - rather than raising - interest rates.Big_G_NorthWales said:
How do you defend a collapsing poundjustin124 said:
A constitutional crisis would be part of the politics - and the Tories would deserve more blame than any other party for having brought us to such a position.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And tell me how plunging the Country into a financial and constitutional crisis helps.justin124 said:
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the point where it is at serious risk of collapse, the Opposition will seek to bring that about. I imagine that some LibDems might like the opportunity to exact some revenge for the 2015 election!kle4 said:justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
Are you ready for rocketing interest rates, mortgage rates and the economic collapse that follows hurting the poorest and throwing thousands out of work
As for the economic consequences , we have been here before as evidenced by the scaremongering of Cameron & Osborne prior to the Referendum. Such tactics persuaded me to Vote Leave - and I have no regrets.I do predict,though, that interest rates will not be shooting up.0 -
I am not sure they will bother defending the pound.Big_G_NorthWales said:
How do you defend a collapsing poundjustin124 said:
A constitutional crisis would be part of the politics - and the Tories would deserve more blame than any other party for having brought us to such a position.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And tell me how plunging the Country into a financial and constitutional crisis helps.justin124 said:kle4 said:justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
Are you ready for rocketing interest rates, mortgage rates and the economic collapse that follows hurting the poorest and throwing thousands out of work
As for the economic consequences , we have been here before as evidenced by the scaremongering of Cameron & Osborne prior to the Referendum. Such tactics persuaded me to Vote Leave - and I have no regrets.I do predict,though, that interest rates will not be shooting up.
You cannot buck the market!
We are already worse off due to currency depreciation. Should the Tory idiots (ERG) get their way and we have No Deal - you have not seen anything yet!
This is what I find so frustrating about Brexit - It is going to make us worse off yet they seem to be going ahead with it anyway in the most destructive way given the behaviour of ERG. As an aside I saw on BBC news a member of the public in Bolton saying the Brexit result was like a football match result in that Remain lost and Leave won - these people do not understand the implications. They think you can just exit the EU and nothing will change for the worse, people have become complacent about the stability EU membership affords us. It is not the first time I have seen first hand the sheer ignorance and lack of understanding about how the EU functions, its institutions, the benefits of membership and the way in which trade enhances our lives in so many spheres.0 -
This mornings financial report says an immediate drop of 10% or more will happen in the event of no dealjustin124 said:
I think it unlikely that sterling would 'collapse' - the currency has already weakened significantly as a result of the Referendum outcome. Uncertainty is what the markets most dislike - but I suspect that any weakness is largely in the price we see today. Moreover, the sharp fall in the pound in late June 2016 did not prevent the Bank of England from cutting - rather than raising - interest rates.Big_G_NorthWales said:
How do you defend a collapsing poundjustin124 said:
A constitutional crisis would be part of the politics - and the Tories would deserve more blame than any other party for having brought us to such a position.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And tell me how plunging the Country into a financial and constitutional crisis helps.justin124 said:
But context is everything here. If the Government is weakened or effectively destabilized to the point where it is at serious risk of collapse, the Opposition will seek to bring that about. I imagine that some LibDems might like the opportunity to exact some revenge for the 2015 election!kle4 said:justin124 said:
I rather doubt that in the context of such a golden opportunity to humiliate the Government. Few will want to risk deselection by bailing out May.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
Are you ready for rocketing interest rates, mortgage rates and the economic collapse that follows hurting the poorest and throwing thousands out of work
As for the economic consequences , we have been here before as evidenced by the scaremongering of Cameron & Osborne prior to the Referendum. Such tactics persuaded me to Vote Leave - and I have no regrets.I do predict,though, that interest rates will not be shooting up.0 -
I can confirm that around 90% of correspondence I have received so far has requested that I reject the deal (largely though these are people sending identical generic campaign emails, not personal thoughts). But importantly, this is a mix of people asking me to vote against because they want a 'harder' Brexit or to walk away completely without a deal, and people wanting me to vote against because they hope it will lead to a second referendum and stop Brexit altogether.AlastairMeeks said:The thoughts of Paul Masterton, one of the Brexit Mutineers as labelled by the Telegraph:
https://twitter.com/pm4eastren/status/1063501819236835329?s=21
Both groups agree they don't like the deal, but they want completely opposite outcomes. Both groups obviously cannot be right.
I appreciate him appearing to try to take a measured approach, whichever way he ends up going with this.0 -
He'll never get on in politics. Far too sensible.AlastairMeeks said:The thoughts of Paul Masterton, one of the Brexit Mutineers as labelled by the Telegraph:
https://twitter.com/pm4eastren/status/1063501819236835329?s=21
See you later.0 -
I think a visit to Brazil, South Africa, Myanmar or the Phillipines might find one, but I agree for developed countries.Roger said:
I think you're right. I've just been thinking of any administration that looks more tawdry than todays Tories and apart from Trump's I couldn't think of oneFoxy said:
No, I would rather Remain part of the decision making bodies, but better the EU for a master than Trump and predatory US agribusiness etc. I dont'trust the Tories on workers, consumers, and environmental rights either, as the EU has been generally good with these.Floater said:
Benign?Foxy said:
I think it quite possible that May's deal passes, but I don't think it would be a smooth path or comfortable for her afterwards. It would be like Major's "bastards" on steroids.Richard_Nabavi said:
You might be right. The dynamics may be more complex than people think. As Big G has observed, a lot may depend on the exact sequence and result of amendments. At the moment, MPs with wildly different views can say they'll vote against the deal, in the hope of shifting things in different directions. That might not be the case if (for example) an amendment seeking to go towards a referendum instead, or No Deal, has already been voted on, thereby narrowing the alternative options.Benpointer said:
I predict a lot of Labour abstentions.justin124 said:A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
I am fine with the Deal. It is clearly worse than Remain, but keeps the UK very closely aligned to EU regulations. In particular it prevent Fox from signing us up to exploitative trade relationshops of Trump etc. A vassal state of course, but at least one with a benign master.
You are happy with being a vassal state ?
Vassals look to their overlords for protection, and the EU protecting us via their regulations, and standards is not to be sneezed at.
The FT did a rather good article a couple of weeks ago on our place in the world.
google " Brexit is teaching Britain its true place in the world" gets by the paywall.0 -
That seems very reasonable.AlastairMeeks said:The thoughts of Paul Masterton, one of the Brexit Mutineers as labelled by the Telegraph:
https://twitter.com/pm4eastren/status/1063501819236835329?s=210 -
IBM had a big business leading up to WW2 in tabulators, which were able to do a range of sophisticated business and scientific tasks. The key difference with digital computers is that the logic was set up in hardware rather than as data.Anorak said:
Yes, but I'd struggle to call that a computer. A machine, perhaps. (I know the word has changed, and that 'computers' used to be 'people doing sums').Foxy said:
IBM started in the Twenties with punch card systems as I recall.Anorak said:
I was always puzzled by the IBM reference, given it was set in 1942. Did they have computers that were recognisable as such back then?John_M said:
It's his Dad who does for him really. Calling your son Major Major Major is asking for trouble.FF43 said:Did Stephen Barclay get to be director of Barclays Bank on the Major Major principle?
(In the novel Catch 22 a computer inadvertently promotes someone with the surname Major. In the process it completely destroys him because he can't cope with the responsibility)0 -
I agree with what Nick Palmer has asserted here on earlier occasions.Labour is not obsessed with Brexit and the EU - and it would not be the main focus of its day to day political agenda. The issue would be allowed to fade into the background , and discussions with the EU would proceed in a much calmer atmosphere than we have experienced since June 2016.JosiasJessop said:
Starting afresh will take years. Not only will that cause more uncertainty, there is no guarantee that the result will be any better.justin124 said:I don't accept the premise that any decision made in the coming weeks re-the deal is irreversible. A new Government that was in no way beholden to the DUP could start afresh , and - whatever the EU might say at this time - I believe they would respond to such a new approach.
Your last clause is one of hope based on what is politically convenient for you: I see no reason why the EU should respond positively to such an approach. (From their perspective) we're mucking them around a lot as it is.
And it's not as if both we and they have other important things to get on with, which are getting subsumed by Brexit.
We need to get this over and done with.0 -
Interesting. As a government backbencher you would expect him to be making arguments in favour of government policy, not appearing to sit on the fence.AlastairMeeks said:The thoughts of Paul Masterton, one of the Brexit Mutineers as labelled by the Telegraph:
https://twitter.com/pm4eastren/status/1063501819236835329?s=210
