Mind you, no-one can accuse Theresa May of not giving new talent a chance.
No but this really is moving the deckchairs on the well-known ocean liner. Events are no longer in the control of the government, and the iceberg is fast approaching. It will sink either Brexit or the country, or perhaps both, before too long.
At the moment, they are looking at 2 years of red-line posturing resulting in a package that a mortally wounded PM cannot pass through the House. A crash-out Brexit is all they have to show for their "Non!".
Fucking A1 job, boys.
Luckily the EU economies are looking so strong they can take a loss of GDP in their stride.
Oh.
And a UK that is going to HAVE to come after them with a package of investment breaks and ultra-low corporate taxes that will make their eyes bleed.
Yep. A1 job. Prats.
You seem fanatically keen to try to shift blame onto the EU for this, with post after post stating "it's not me, guv!".
You were an arch-leaver, perhaps even a Brexiteer. This is your mess.
Accept the responsibility.
The people signing us up to be in this organisation against the wishes of the majority have to take their share of the blame too.
When did that happen?
The Treaty of Lisbon is the clearest example, when the government reneged on its promise of a referendum.
At the moment, they are looking at 2 years of red-line posturing resulting in a package that a mortally wounded PM cannot pass through the House. A crash-out Brexit is all they have to show for their "Non!".
Fucking A1 job, boys.
Luckily the EU economies are looking so strong they can take a loss of GDP in their stride.
Oh.
And a UK that is going to HAVE to come after them with a package of investment breaks and ultra-low corporate taxes that will make their eyes bleed.
Yep. A1 job. Prats.
You seem fanatically keen to try to shift blame onto the EU for this, with post after post stating "it's not me, guv!".
You were an arch-leaver, perhaps even a Brexiteer. This is your mess.
Accept the responsibility.
The people signing us up to be in this organisation against the wishes of the majority have to take their share of the blame too.
When did that happen?
The Treaty of Lisbon is the clearest example, when the government reneged on its promise of a referendum.
I fail to recall riots in the streets over it.
We're too polite for that.
Well - why should there be riots if Brexit is cancelled? We are often told the country will explode if Brexit is cancelled
Our absurd voting system with so many MPs effectively sheltered from electoral pressure in their safe seats is a significant contributory factor to the current fiasco.
Certainly is... a lesson to learn here is very clear: Major reform of our politics is severely overdue
Is there any system in the world (Even PR-STV) that doesn't create safe MPs ? If you're recommended as #1 vote for Sinn Fein's list in West Belfast then you are highly, highly likely to win whatever else happens.
In theory there aren't safe seats under STV, since even where a party is likely guaranteed seats, they will put up at least one more candidate so voters have the choice between candidates. Of course parties try to influence the order that their candidates are ranked by voters, but it's the voters choice. If candidates are listed in alphabetical order, those earlier in the alphabet do have a significant advantage; I believe in Australia they randomise batches of ballot papers to try and counter this.
If I was May, no more balance. Just put in Dealers or Remainers into the Cabinet.
+1 I agree the time for balance is over.
Yeah she's already sold Brexiteers (that's like 70% of her members and voters but we won't worry about that) down the river...
Why bother keeping up the pretense now?
I voted Tory in 2017 and I don't feel she has sold me out or any of the other Tory voters I know.
A negotiation means a compromise.
I would rather Remain and if MPs with your views don't stop messing about I hope you get something you really don't like which is Remain or another referendum. If it means people like you leave the Tory party I will be glad as I cannot understand this obsession with Europe and wanting no deal otherwise known as economic suicide!
I'm on the other side of the EU argument to you. I dislike Theresa May's nanny statism and think she has a political tin ear, but I don't consider that she's sold me out on the EU.
What do you think of this one?
"Notwithstanding Article 126, the Joint Committee may, before 1 July 2020, adopt a single decision extending the transition period up to [31 December 20XX].”
Okay with it.
Is it consistent with Leaving?
Yes, provided that we're negotiating an FTA with the EU.
And why wouldn't we after we've left. I know leavers don't like it but the EU really isn't keen on countries being in the customs Union and outside the single market, which is more or less what we get with the backstop. The ERG must be really thick if they don't get this point !
Transition can be prolonged. It’s more likely that that will happen than falling into the backstop.
Did Stephen Barclay get to be director of Barclays Bank on the Major Major principle?
(In the novel Catch 22 a computer inadvertently promotes someone with the surname Major. In the process it completely destroys him because he can't cope with the responsibility)
It's his Dad who does for him really. Calling your son Major Major Major is asking for trouble.
I was always puzzled by the IBM reference, given it was set in 1942. Did they have computers that were recognisable as such back then?
Did Stephen Barclay get to be director of Barclays Bank on the Major Major principle?
(In the novel Catch 22 a computer inadvertently promotes someone with the surname Major. In the process it completely destroys him because he can't cope with the responsibility)
It's his Dad who does for him really. Calling your son Major Major Major is asking for trouble.
I was always puzzled by the IBM reference, given it was set in 1942. Did they have computers that were recognisable as such back then?
IBM started in the Twenties with punch card systems as I recall.
Did Stephen Barclay get to be director of Barclays Bank on the Major Major principle?
(In the novel Catch 22 a computer inadvertently promotes someone with the surname Major. In the process it completely destroys him because he can't cope with the responsibility)
It's his Dad who does for him really. Calling your son Major Major Major is asking for trouble.
I was always puzzled by the IBM reference, given it was set in 1942. Did they have computers that were recognisable as such back then?
IBM started in the Twenties with punch card systems as I recall.
Did Stephen Barclay get to be director of Barclays Bank on the Major Major principle?
(In the novel Catch 22 a computer inadvertently promotes someone with the surname Major. In the process it completely destroys him because he can't cope with the responsibility)
It's his Dad who does for him really. Calling your son Major Major Major is asking for trouble.
I was always puzzled by the IBM reference, given it was set in 1942. Did they have computers that were recognisable as such back then?
Not digital computers - just things like comptometers. But IBM were founded in 1911, so its not an anachronism.
At the moment, they are looking at 2 years of red-line posturing resulting in a package that a mortally wounded PM cannot pass through the House. A crash-out Brexit is all they have to show for their "Non!".
Fucking A1 job, boys.
Luckily the EU economies are looking so strong they can take a loss of GDP in their stride.
Oh.
And a UK that is going to HAVE to come after them with a package of investment breaks and ultra-low corporate taxes that will make their eyes bleed.
Yep. A1 job. Prats.
You seem fanatically keen to try to shift blame onto the EU for this, with post after post stating "it's not me, guv!".
You were an arch-leaver, perhaps even a Brexiteer. This is your mess.
Accept the responsibility.
The people signing us up to be in this organisation against the wishes of the majority have to take their share of the blame too.
When did that happen?
The Treaty of Lisbon is the clearest example, when the government reneged on its promise of a referendum.
I fail to recall riots in the streets over it.
We're too polite for that.
Well - why should there be riots if Brexit is cancelled? We are often told the country will explode if Brexit is cancelled
I don't think there would be riots. But, I don't think it would settle the issue, either.
Did Stephen Barclay get to be director of Barclays Bank on the Major Major principle?
(In the novel Catch 22 a computer inadvertently promotes someone with the surname Major. In the process it completely destroys him because he can't cope with the responsibility)
It's his Dad who does for him really. Calling your son Major Major Major is asking for trouble.
I was always puzzled by the IBM reference, given it was set in 1942. Did they have computers that were recognisable as such back then?
IBM started in the Twenties with punch card systems as I recall.
Yes, but I'd struggle to call that a computer. A machine, perhaps. (I know the word has changed, and that 'computers' used to be 'people doing sums').
I don't buy into this faux admiration for her doing what she after all chose to do. I respect her "sense of duty" though that's not to be confused with a sense of survival or self-preservation.
There's too much else needing to be sorted out for Conservatives to shamelessly self-indulge in internal bickering and name calling. What of housing, transport, the NHS and the crisis in the funding of social care for adults and children to name but a few?
I think the way your Party has comported itself in Government has been poor and it is only the fact that you have Corbyn as Labour leader that prevents you sinking into the quagmire you so richly deserve.
As it is, I fear May will survive and you will all cheer to the rafters when the Deal passes the Commons and in the euphoria call for a GE and win a majority.
None of that affords me any pleasure but at least then the Conservatives will be judged on how they actually run the country and when, as I suspect, they are found wanting, they will be given the electoral thrashing they will have deserved.
Richard N and I both bemoaned the absence of good Government this morning - can you honestly say this country has been blessed by "good Government" in the past two or three years?
At the moment, they are looking at 2 years of red-line posturing resulting in a package that a mortally wounded PM cannot pass through the House. A crash-out Brexit is all they have to show for their "Non!".
Fucking A1 job, boys.
Luckily the EU economies are looking so strong they can take a loss of GDP in their stride.
Oh.
And a UK that is going to HAVE to come after them with a package of investment breaks and ultra-low corporate taxes that will make their eyes bleed.
Yep. A1 job. Prats.
You seem fanatically keen to try to shift blame onto the EU for this, with post after post stating "it's not me, guv!".
You were an arch-leaver, perhaps even a Brexiteer. This is your mess.
Accept the responsibility.
+1
+2
I sense that MM and his ilk are beginning to realise that a heavy can is coming their way to carry.
Can't Mrs May's PR tell her that sounding like a record that has slipped it's groove isn't cool for a PM. In fact it doesn't sound good for anyone unless they have aspergers
Can't Mrs May's PR tell her that sounding like a record that has slipped it's groove isn't cool for a PM. In fact it doesn't sound good for anyone unless they have aspergers
I don't buy into this faux admiration for her doing what she after all chose to do.
I think that is a rather insultingly out of character comment, frankly. Who are you to decide that if other people say they have some level of admiration for her that they are being insincere?
I think May has been a poor PM and I won't vote Tory a second time for a very long time, if that matters, since apparently if one expresses any positive sentiment they are an apologist faking it in your eyes.
At the moment, they are looking at 2 years of red-line posturing resulting in a package that a mortally wounded PM cannot pass through the House. A crash-out Brexit is all they have to show for their "Non!".
Fucking A1 job, boys.
Luckily the EU economies are looking so strong they can take a loss of GDP in their stride.
Oh.
And a UK that is going to HAVE to come after them with a package of investment breaks and ultra-low corporate taxes that will make their eyes bleed.
Yep. A1 job. Prats.
You seem fanatically keen to try to shift blame onto the EU for this, with post after post stating "it's not me, guv!".
You were an arch-leaver, perhaps even a Brexiteer. This is your mess.
Accept the responsibility.
The people signing us up to be in this organisation against the wishes of the majority have to take their share of the blame too.
When did that happen?
The Treaty of Lisbon is the clearest example, when the government reneged on its promise of a referendum.
I fail to recall riots in the streets over it.
We're too polite for that.
Well - why should there be riots if Brexit is cancelled? We are often told the country will explode if Brexit is cancelled
I don't think there would be riots. But, I don't think it would settle the issue, either.
There won't be riots - but the Conservatives will be screwed at the polling booth probably forever.
Did Stephen Barclay get to be director of Barclays Bank on the Major Major principle?
(In the novel Catch 22 a computer inadvertently promotes someone with the surname Major. In the process it completely destroys him because he can't cope with the responsibility)
It's his Dad who does for him really. Calling your son Major Major Major is asking for trouble.
I was always puzzled by the IBM reference, given it was set in 1942. Did they have computers that were recognisable as such back then?
Not digital computers - just things like comptometers. But IBM were founded in 1911, so its not an anachronism.
And IBM was an amalgamation of Hollerith's Tabulating Machine Company with others. Hollerith made his name by processing the 1890 US census with his machines.
Tracey Crouch should be back in government. She seems to have some principles and cares about people.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
Did Stephen Barclay get to be director of Barclays Bank on the Major Major principle?
(In the novel Catch 22 a computer inadvertently promotes someone with the surname Major. In the process it completely destroys him because he can't cope with the responsibility)
It's his Dad who does for him really. Calling your son Major Major Major is asking for trouble.
CBS's Chief White House Correspondent is named Major Garrett. I really think he deserves a promotion to Lt.-Colonel at least for having to deal with the craziness.
If it goes to a Referendum, I think the fairest course is simply the Deal, Yes or No. Then it's up to Parliament to decide what to do if the answer is No.
But a No gets us nowhere, and whatever Parliament decides will still be seen as a betrayal by one side or the other.
This mess is a result of the leave campaigns' central contradiction and lie, and that would just repeat the mistake.
I think that whether it were Deal v Remain, Deal v No Deal, or Remain v No Deal, or a multiple choice, the losers would see it as a betrayal.
Agreed. But tough titty.
MPs will decide which of the four possible choices are on the referendum ballot paper.
Deal versus no deal. Brexiteers would prefer this one but no majority in the house for it.
Remain versus no deal. Remainers would prefer this one but risk of "wrong" answer by the Britsh public. No majority for this one.
Remain versus deal versus no deal. Too complex and problematic. Risk of no deal. No majority for this one.
Deal versus Remain. Probably preferred by Mrs May and all opposition parties. Good chance of a majority of MPs supporting this amendment. Result of referendum could go either way.
I'm guessing that if more than a third of Tory MPs voted against Theresa May it would be difficult for her to carry on as leader.
Corbyn managed through worse.
He didn't have a government to run at the same time.
I don't think there is a viable way for May to have a functioning government anymore either. The DUP will not support her, and if her deal goes through no will plenty of her own MPs, even if they claim they won't vote to bring down the government. If the deal doesn't go through I am sure she will then stand down; people call her delusional, but at the moment the situation is that she has a deal, people don't like it, but they haven't actually voted it down yet, so she still has a reason to be PM - to try, however inadequately, to persuade people to back her deal. Once it fails she has no purpose as PM anymore.
So if that is correct the number of MPs voting against her is actually not that big a deal so long as it is less than half. Yes if it is 100, or even 50, it is too many for her to overcome, but I don't think she is looking beyond the vote on the deal.
A coven of Rudd, Hammond and May in charge of Brexit - that should calm down the ERG. Not.
Eh? The time to placate the other side has passed, in fact it passed a long time ago. It is good that both May and the ERG are in open conflict with one another, it allows for a victor and a resolution to emerge.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.
A coven of Rudd, Hammond and May in charge of Brexit - that should calm down the ERG. Not.
Eh? The time to placate the other side has passed, in fact it passed a long time ago. It is good that both May and the ERG are in open conflict with one another, it allows for a victor and a resolution to emerge.
What victory is this ? The deal wont pass in the commons and moving forward she has no majority as she's stabbed the DUP in the front.
At the moment, they are looking at 2 years of red-line posturing resulting in a package that a mortally wounded PM cannot pass through the House. A crash-out Brexit is all they have to show for their "Non!".
Fucking A1 job, boys.
Luckily the EU economies are looking so strong they can take a loss of GDP in their stride.
Oh.
And a UK that is going to HAVE to come after them with a package of investment breaks and ultra-low corporate taxes that will make their eyes bleed.
Yep. A1 job. Prats.
You seem fanatically keen to try to shift blame onto the EU for this, with post after post stating "it's not me, guv!".
You were an arch-leaver, perhaps even a Brexiteer. This is your mess.
Accept the responsibility.
The people signing us up to be in this organisation against the wishes of the majority have to take their share of the blame too.
When did that happen?
The Treaty of Lisbon is the clearest example, when the government reneged on its promise of a referendum.
I fail to recall riots in the streets over it.
We're too polite for that.
Well - why should there be riots if Brexit is cancelled? We are often told the country will explode if Brexit is cancelled
I don't think there would be riots. But, I don't think it would settle the issue, either.
Brexiteers trend to the elderly. It's young people that riot.
Mr. Flashman (deceased), deal fails, second referendum called, Remain wins, pro-EU Labour and Conservative MPs unite to form an En Marche style party and form the next government.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.
Well it wouldn't have the current problems, eg power, ever again.
The democratic and politically sensible thing to do is to release us from the shackles of the referendum result and give the public the final say. Things have moved on palpably since June 2016. This would not be about re-running that referendum, but about asking people whether they want to go ahead with Brexit on these terms now that we know the exact nature of the deal that is actually available to us, whether we should leave without any deal at all or whether people on balance would rather stick with the deal we already have inside the EU. To those who say that is an affront to democracy given the 2016 result, I ask this: is it more democratic to rely on a three-year-old vote based on what an idealised Brexit might offer, or to have a vote based on what we know it does actually entail?
A coven of Rudd, Hammond and May in charge of Brexit - that should calm down the ERG. Not.
Eh? The time to placate the other side has passed, in fact it passed a long time ago. It is good that both May and the ERG are in open conflict with one another, it allows for a victor and a resolution to emerge.
What victory is this ? The deal wont pass in the commons and moving forward she has no majority as she's stabbed the DUP in the front.
I didn't say it was a victory at all. I said that they are in conflict allows for a victor - as I have made very clear I think her deal is doomed and that her government is doomed. I was questioning the implied assumption that she should try to calm the ERG down. No she shouldn't, because the disagreement between her and the ERG is about fundamentals, things that cannot be tweaked. The only course is for the sides to fight and one to win.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.
It wouldn't be remainer though. Kicking out the ERG would be akin to the Jacobins purging the enragés.
The democratic and politically sensible thing to do is to release us from the shackles of the referendum result and give the public the final say. Things have moved on palpably since June 2016. This would not be about re-running that referendum, but about asking people whether they want to go ahead with Brexit on these terms now that we know the exact nature of the deal that is actually available to us, whether we should leave without any deal at all or whether people on balance would rather stick with the deal we already have inside the EU. To those who say that is an affront to democracy given the 2016 result, I ask this: is it more democratic to rely on a three-year-old vote based on what an idealised Brexit might offer, or to have a vote based on what we know it does actually entail?
So T May has given a leadership contender with a very small majority the fantastic brief of Universal Credit. Every weekend from now on Momentum will be on the streets in Hastings. Who says May does not have a sense of humour.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.
It wouldn't be remainer though. Kicking out the ERG would be akin to the Jacobins purging the enragés.
Yes but the Remainer types like May, Rudd, Hammond are also the big state types - TINOs. Forget about an economic policy to the right of Ed Miliband.
At the moment, they are looking at 2 years of red-line posturing resulting in a package that a mortally wounded PM cannot pass through the House. A crash-out Brexit is all they have to show for their "Non!".
Fucking A1 job, boys.
Luckily the EU economies are looking so strong they can take a loss of GDP in their stride.
Oh.
And a UK that is going to HAVE to come after them with a package of investment breaks and ultra-low corporate taxes that will make their eyes bleed.
Yep. A1 job. Prats.
You seem fanatically keen to try to shift blame onto the EU for this, with post after post stating "it's not me, guv!".
You were an arch-leaver, perhaps even a Brexiteer. This is your mess.
Accept the responsibility.
The people signing us up to be in this organisation against the wishes of the majority have to take their share of the blame too.
When did that happen?
The Treaty of Lisbon is the clearest example, when the government reneged on its promise of a referendum.
I fail to recall riots in the streets over it.
We're too polite for that.
Well - why should there be riots if Brexit is cancelled? We are often told the country will explode if Brexit is cancelled
I don't think there would be riots. But, I don't think it would settle the issue, either.
Brexiteers trend to the elderly. It's young people that riot.
Rioting doesn't happen in the winter rain. Brexiteers may chuck their cocoa at the telly, but that is as far as it goes.
If it goes to a Referendum, I think the fairest course is simply the Deal, Yes or No. Then it's up to Parliament to decide what to do if the answer is No.
But a No gets us nowhere, and whatever Parliament decides will still be seen as a betrayal by one side or the other.
This mess is a result of the leave campaigns' central contradiction and lie, and that would just repeat the mistake.
I think that whether it were Deal v Remain, Deal v No Deal, or Remain v No Deal, or a multiple choice, the losers would see it as a betrayal.
Agreed. But tough titty.
MPs will decide which of the four possible choices are on the referendum ballot paper.
Deal versus no deal. Brexiteers would prefer this one but no majority in the house for it.
Remain versus no deal. Remainers would prefer this one but risk of "wrong" answer by the Britsh public. No majority for this one.
Remain versus deal versus no deal. Too complex and problematic. Risk of no deal. No majority for this one.
Deal versus Remain. Probably preferred by Mrs May and all opposition parties. Good chance of a majority of MPs supporting this amendment. Result of referendum could go either way.
Referendum wording is the responsibility of the Electoral Commission.
So T May has given a leadership contender with a very small majority the fantastic brief of Universal Credit. Every weekend from now on Momentum will be on the streets in Hastings. Who says May does not have a sense of humour.
This would not be about re-running that referendum
He should tell that to the people's vote campaign, since a vote has been asked for long before the exact nature of the deal was known.
Perfectly logical to suggest that the terms of the eventual deal be endorsed, or otherwise, by the public. And actually more principled to make the suggestion before knowing the final terms.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.
It wouldn't be remainer though. Kicking out the ERG would be akin to the Jacobins purging the enragés.
Yes but the Remainer types like May, Rudd, Hammond are also the big state types - TINOs. Forget about an economic policy to the right of Ed Miliband.
Wouldn't you rather have Ken Clarke as chancellor?
This would not be about re-running that referendum
He should tell that to the people's vote campaign, since a vote has been asked for long before the exact nature of the deal was known.
It was known long ago that we would be presented with a withdrawal agreement at the end of the article 50 process.
Jo Johnson is apparently saying now we know the exact details it is reasonable to ask for a vote. Others clearly just wanted a rerun well before they knew the exact details, they just didn't want to leave. Which is rerunning the last referendum.
It's ok, I too think we need a vote now, but we have to be real about many motivations here.
The Tories seem intent on gifting Corbyn the next election. Those sending in no confidence letters are a completely disorganised rabble with no idea what they want instead. Those supporting May are supporting an atrociously bad deal with no merits and to deliver which the Tories have abdicated their entire domestic policy agenda. It’s shameful.
It may be a bad deal, but it does have merits. To take the most obvious one for Brexiters, it ensures Brexit actually happens. That is still probable even without it, but not as certain is it was.
With immigration undecided, trade unresolved, the common rule book over which we have no say foisted on us, NI left in limbo, the transition period length unresolved, how is that Brexit ?
It's Britain leaving the European Union. Which was the only thing on the referendum ballot paper and the only thing that there is an actual mandate for.
The Withdrawal Agreement was always intended to be phase I of the disengagement, that's what "transition period" means. You can't disentangle forty years of economic integration overnight. Well you can, but your economy will crash and burn if you do.
Is there any way to get from phase 1 to phase 2? I can imagine the EU can just tell us to get stuffed if we try to negotiate anything else.
Which of course is what will happen...
Or they will let us go but we'll have to let them have Northern Ireland in the process, as outlined by Selmayr.
So T May has given a leadership contender with a very small majority the fantastic brief of Universal Credit. Every weekend from now on Momentum will be on the streets in Hastings. ..
Good point. That should help her re-election prospects a lot.
At the moment, they are looking at 2 years of red-line posturing resulting in a package that a mortally wounded PM cannot pass through the House. A crash-out Brexit is all they have to show for their "Non!".
Fucking A1 job, boys.
Luckily the EU economies are looking so strong they can take a loss of GDP in their stride.
Oh.
And a UK that is going to HAVE to come after them with a package of investment breaks and ultra-low corporate taxes that will make their eyes bleed.
Yep. A1 job. Prats.
You seem fanatically keen to try to shift blame onto the EU for this, with post after post stating "it's not me, guv!".
You were an arch-leaver, perhaps even a Brexiteer. This is your mess.
Accept the responsibility.
The people signing us up to be in this organisation against the wishes of the majority have to take their share of the blame too.
When did that happen?
The Treaty of Lisbon is the clearest example, when the government reneged on its promise of a referendum.
I fail to recall riots in the streets over it.
We're too polite for that.
Well - why should there be riots if Brexit is cancelled? We are often told the country will explode if Brexit is cancelled
I don't think there would be riots. But, I don't think it would settle the issue, either.
Brexiteers trend to the elderly. It's young people that riot.
Rioting doesn't happen in the winter rain. Brexiteers may chuck their cocoa at the telly, but that is as far as it goes.
The democratic and politically sensible thing to do is to release us from the shackles of the referendum result and give the public the final say. Things have moved on palpably since June 2016. This would not be about re-running that referendum, but about asking people whether they want to go ahead with Brexit on these terms now that we know the exact nature of the deal that is actually available to us, whether we should leave without any deal at all or whether people on balance would rather stick with the deal we already have inside the EU. To those who say that is an affront to democracy given the 2016 result, I ask this: is it more democratic to rely on a three-year-old vote based on what an idealised Brexit might offer, or to have a vote based on what we know it does actually entail?
It is, however, about re-running the referendum.
Only in the sense that the right answer is the same as last time. It would, however, be a different question.
This would not be about re-running that referendum
He should tell that to the people's vote campaign, since a vote has been asked for long before the exact nature of the deal was known.
It was known long ago that we would be presented with a withdrawal agreement at the end of the article 50 process.
Jo Johnson is apparently saying now we know the exact details it is reasonable to ask for a vote. Others clearly just wanted a rerun well before they knew the exact details, they just didn't want to leave. Which is rerunning the last referendum.
It's ok, I too think we need a vote now, but we have to be real about many motivations here.
The complaint isn't the result - but the execution of Brexit since the referendum.
This would not be about re-running that referendum
He should tell that to the people's vote campaign, since a vote has been asked for long before the exact nature of the deal was known.
Perfectly logical to suggest that the terms of the eventual deal be endorsed, or otherwise, by the public. And actually more principled to make the suggestion before knowing the final terms.
That's fine, except his stance appears to be different, because he is justifying a vote based on only now knowing the details (about asking people whether they want to go ahead with Brexit on these terms now that we know the exact nature of the deal that is actually available to us), and was not supporting a vote until recently. If he felt as you have described, he would have been calling for one for years along with the second referendum campaign.
So logical as it may be in your eyes, that is not his view, and if it is the view of the second referendum campaign then he takes a slightly different view even though he arrives at the same conclusion.
If it goes to a Referendum, I think the fairest course is simply the Deal, Yes or No. Then it's up to Parliament to decide what to do if the answer is No.
But a No gets us nowhere, and whatever Parliament decides will still be seen as a betrayal by one side or the other.
This mess is a result of the leave campaigns' central contradiction and lie, and that would just repeat the mistake.
I think that whether it were Deal v Remain, Deal v No Deal, or Remain v No Deal, or a multiple choice, the losers would see it as a betrayal.
Agreed. But tough titty.
MPs will decide which of the four possible choices are on the referendum ballot paper.
Deal versus no deal. Brexiteers would prefer this one but no majority in the house for it.
Remain versus no deal. Remainers would prefer this one but risk of "wrong" answer by the Britsh public. No majority for this one.
Remain versus deal versus no deal. Too complex and problematic. Risk of no deal. No majority for this one.
Deal versus Remain. Probably preferred by Mrs May and all opposition parties. Good chance of a majority of MPs supporting this amendment. Result of referendum could go either way.
And just to make ERG's day Amber Rudd was championing a second referendum a few weeks ago
This would not be about re-running that referendum
He should tell that to the people's vote campaign, since a vote has been asked for long before the exact nature of the deal was known.
It was known long ago that we would be presented with a withdrawal agreement at the end of the article 50 process.
Jo Johnson is apparently saying now we know the exact details it is reasonable to ask for a vote. Others clearly just wanted a rerun well before they knew the exact details, they just didn't want to leave. Which is rerunning the last referendum.
It's ok, I too think we need a vote now, but we have to be real about many motivations here.
It's not a thought crime to want a particular outcome, but the analysis that this process would lead to a deal for which there would be no mandate and that we would therefore need a second vote was right then and is right now.
The Tories seem intent on gifting Corbyn the next election. Those sending in no confidence letters are a completely disorganised rabble with no idea what they want instead. Those supporting May are supporting an atrociously bad deal with no merits and to deliver which the Tories have abdicated their entire domestic policy agenda. It’s shameful.
It may be a bad deal, but it does have merits. To take the most obvious one for Brexiters, it ensures Brexit actually happens. That is still probable even without it, but not as certain is it was.
With immigration undecided, trade unresolved, the common rule book over which we have no say foisted on us, NI left in limbo, the transition period length unresolved, how is that Brexit ?
It's Britain leaving the European Union. Which was the only thing on the referendum ballot paper and the only thing that there is an actual mandate for.
The Withdrawal Agreement was always intended to be phase I of the disengagement, that's what "transition period" means. You can't disentangle forty years of economic integration overnight. Well you can, but your economy will crash and burn if you do.
Is there any way to get from phase 1 to phase 2? I can imagine the EU can just tell us to get stuffed if we try to negotiate anything else.
Which of course is what will happen...
Or they will let us go but we'll have to let them have Northern Ireland in the process, as outlined by Selmayr.
You just repudiate it unilaterally
Take the hit (not that it will be much)
Our lot couldn't bring themselves to repudiate anything unilaterally. We're rules based dontchano.
So T May has given a leadership contender with a very small majority the fantastic brief of Universal Credit. Every weekend from now on Momentum will be on the streets in Hastings. ..
Good point. That should help her re-election prospects a lot.
Maybe she actually believes the boundary changes will go through, which apparently would help her. If so, then her judgement...may not be fantastic.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?
Listen to what EU leaders are saying today. They have come up with a fair deal. It is not perfect. It forms a basis for an orderly departure and building a future relationship. It keeps the Irish happy. It gives the UK quite a lot of what it wants. It seems a pragmatic way of balancing competing interests, especially given the limits which Britain placed on itself. If it is rejected, there is not going to be some magically different better deal pulled out of a hat somewhere.
Instead, in pursuit of some unattainable goal, some Tories are prepared to blow up their party and the country. They are prepared to take that risk, a risk which if it comes true will daamge others, many of whom will not be well able to protect themselves. They are little different from Marxist revolutionaries who want to destroy society so as to build their utopia. They really are beneath contempt.
I am not a Eurofanatic, by a very long measure. Quite the opposite in fact. But the more I have seen of the ERG in recent days, the more I prefer the EU.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?
Listen to what EU leaders are saying today. They have come up with a fair deal. It is not perfect. It forms a basis for an orderly departure and building a future relationship. It keeps the Irish happy. It gives the UK quite a lot of what it wants. It seems a pragmatic way of balancing competing interests, especially given the limits which Britain placed on itself. If it is rejected, there is not going to be some magically different better deal pulled out of a hat somewhere.
Instead, in pursuit of some unattainable goal, some Tories are prepared to blow up their party and the country. They are prepared to take that risk, a risk which if it comes true will daamge others, many of whom will not be well able to protect themselves. They are little different from Marxist revolutionaries who want to destroy society so as to build their utopia. They really are beneath contempt.
I am not a Eurofanatic, by a very long measure. Quite the opposite in fact. But the more I have seen of the ERG in recent days, the more I prefer the EU.
Whatever happened to sensible pragmatism?
It was always the Tory weak spot that any pretence at sensible pragmatism went out of the window the minute anyone at the dinner party raised the subject of the EU.
So T May has given a leadership contender with a very small majority the fantastic brief of Universal Credit. Every weekend from now on Momentum will be on the streets in Hastings. ..
Good point. That should help her re-election prospects a lot.
Maybe she actually believes the boundary changes will go through, which apparently would help her. If so, then her judgement...may not be fantastic.
No, her constituency doesn't change at all (rather surprisingly, because the surrounding ones do).
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?
Depends entirely how they manage it - one led by May / Hammond would be toxic.
This would not be about re-running that referendum
He should tell that to the people's vote campaign, since a vote has been asked for long before the exact nature of the deal was known.
It was known long ago that we would be presented with a withdrawal agreement at the end of the article 50 process.
Jo Johnson is apparently saying now we know the exact details it is reasonable to ask for a vote. Others clearly just wanted a rerun well before they knew the exact details, they just didn't want to leave. Which is rerunning the last referendum.
It's ok, I too think we need a vote now, but we have to be real about many motivations here.
It's not a thought crime to want a particular outcome, but the analysis that this process would lead to a deal for which there would be no mandate and that we would therefore need a second vote was right then and is right now.
I have never said people could not campaign to remain even from right after the initial referendum. The opposite in fact, there's nothign wrong with that. I was pointing out there is a difference between his reasons for there to be a vote and the people's vote campaign. That's relatively subtle, but it is significant because his argument this is not about a re-run, and their argument is clearly about a rerun.
If it were not about a re-run they would emphasise a lot more that people should be able to confirm no deal or a bad deal if they want, but most of its supporters act like only remain would be on the table.
So T May has given a leadership contender with a very small majority the fantastic brief of Universal Credit. Every weekend from now on Momentum will be on the streets in Hastings. ..
Good point. That should help her re-election prospects a lot.
Maybe she actually believes the boundary changes will go through, which apparently would help her. If so, then her judgement...may not be fantastic.
Help her only in the sense that there is a new nearby rural seat that is nice and safe for her to jump into, if she wants. Hastings itself is unaffected by the review and as marginal as ever.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?
Listen to what EU leaders are saying today. They have come up with a fair deal. It is not perfect. It forms a basis for an orderly departure and building a future relationship. It keeps the Irish happy. It gives the UK quite a lot of what it wants. It seems a pragmatic way of balancing competing interests, especially given the limits which Britain placed on itself. If it is rejected, there is not going to be some magically different better deal pulled out of a hat somewhere.
Instead, in pursuit of some unattainable goal, some Tories are prepared to blow up their party and the country. They are prepared to take that risk, a risk which if it comes true will daamge others, many of whom will not be well able to protect themselves. They are little different from Marxist revolutionaries who want to destroy society so as to build their utopia. They really are beneath contempt.
I am not a Eurofanatic, by a very long measure. Quite the opposite in fact. But the more I have seen of the ERG in recent days, the more I prefer the EU.
A good 30 Tory MPs are committed to opposing the deal - as are the 10 DUP MPs. Difficult to see any support from Labour reaching double figures.Beyond that , the deal will be supported by the LD -Stephen Lloyd - and possibly the now Independent MP for Barrow in Furness. That still would have May well short of the votes needed to get it through the Commons.
If it goes to a Referendum, I think the fairest course is simply the Deal, Yes or No. Then it's up to Parliament to decide what to do if the answer is No.
But a No gets us nowhere, and whatever Parliament decides will still be seen as a betrayal by one side or the other.
This mess is a result of the leave campaigns' central contradiction and lie, and that would just repeat the mistake.
I think that whether it were Deal v Remain, Deal v No Deal, or Remain v No Deal, or a multiple choice, the losers would see it as a betrayal.
Agreed. But tough titty.
MPs will decide which of the four possible choices are on the referendum ballot paper.
Deal versus no deal. Brexiteers would prefer this one but no majority in the house for it.
Remain versus no deal. Remainers would prefer this one but risk of "wrong" answer by the Britsh public. No majority for this one.
Remain versus deal versus no deal. Too complex and problematic. Risk of no deal. No majority for this one.
Deal versus Remain. Probably preferred by Mrs May and all opposition parties. Good chance of a majority of MPs supporting this amendment. Result of referendum could go either way.
Referendum wording is the responsibility of the Electoral Commission.
That could be waived by the legislation authorizing the referendum.
So T May has given a leadership contender with a very small majority the fantastic brief of Universal Credit. Every weekend from now on Momentum will be on the streets in Hastings. ..
Good point. That should help her re-election prospects a lot.
Maybe she actually believes the boundary changes will go through, which apparently would help her. If so, then her judgement...may not be fantastic.
No, her constituency doesn't change at all (rather surprisingly, because the surrounding ones do).
I suspect she may move to a safer constituency before the next GE. North East Somerset might become vacant when the incumbent moves to a new party.
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
A remainer Conservative party would be about as popular as Ukip in Brighton.
How popular do you think a Tory party that leads us to a crash out Brexit will be?
Depends entirely how they manage it - one led by May / Hammond would be toxic.
I can barely tell Hammond is even in this government, we barely see him pop up outside budget time.
Comments
https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/status/1063462672195301376
https://skwawkbox.org/2018/11/16/excl-miliband-set-to-return-to-shadow-cabinet-in-nhs-or-defence-role/
Tell Brady to hold off counting the letters until I get back.
Oh yeah, and he was at Trinity with me.
She should appoint 100% leavers so that they have to deliver Brexit. No one can then accuse the pro-EU side of buggering it up.
I don't buy into this faux admiration for her doing what she after all chose to do. I respect her "sense of duty" though that's not to be confused with a sense of survival or self-preservation.
There's too much else needing to be sorted out for Conservatives to shamelessly self-indulge in internal bickering and name calling. What of housing, transport, the NHS and the crisis in the funding of social care for adults and children to name but a few?
I think the way your Party has comported itself in Government has been poor and it is only the fact that you have Corbyn as Labour leader that prevents you sinking into the quagmire you so richly deserve.
As it is, I fear May will survive and you will all cheer to the rafters when the Deal passes the Commons and in the euphoria call for a GE and win a majority.
None of that affords me any pleasure but at least then the Conservatives will be judged on how they actually run the country and when, as I suspect, they are found wanting, they will be given the electoral thrashing they will have deserved.
Richard N and I both bemoaned the absence of good Government this morning - can you honestly say this country has been blessed by "good Government" in the past two or three years?
I sense that MM and his ilk are beginning to realise that a heavy can is coming their way to carry.
Meanwhile seems the ERG are all mouth and no trousers
I think May has been a poor PM and I won't vote Tory a second time for a very long time, if that matters, since apparently if one expresses any positive sentiment they are an apologist faking it in your eyes.
May out.
https://twitter.com/owenjbennett/status/1063479413357072385
The ERG need to be thrown out of the party. They are dangerous lunatics who are destroying their party and will destroy the country the way they are going.
MPs will decide which of the four possible choices are on the referendum ballot paper.
Deal versus no deal. Brexiteers would prefer this one but no majority in the house for it.
Remain versus no deal. Remainers would prefer this one but risk of "wrong" answer by the Britsh public. No majority for this one.
Remain versus deal versus no deal. Too complex and problematic. Risk of no deal. No majority for this one.
Deal versus Remain. Probably preferred by Mrs May and all opposition parties. Good chance of a majority of MPs supporting this amendment. Result of referendum could go either way.
I don't think there is a viable way for May to have a functioning government anymore either. The DUP will not support her, and if her deal goes through no will plenty of her own MPs, even if they claim they won't vote to bring down the government. If the deal doesn't go through I am sure she will then stand down; people call her delusional, but at the moment the situation is that she has a deal, people don't like it, but they haven't actually voted it down yet, so she still has a reason to be PM - to try, however inadequately, to persuade people to back her deal. Once it fails she has no purpose as PM anymore.
So if that is correct the number of MPs voting against her is actually not that big a deal so long as it is less than half. Yes if it is 100, or even 50, it is too many for her to overcome, but I don't think she is looking beyond the vote on the deal.
Simple.
.....
Cameron's Brexit referendum has really lanced that Tory Boil of Europe. Noxious pus everywhere..
It's ok, I too think we need a vote now, but we have to be real about many motivations here.
Take the hit (not that it will be much)
The voters can have their revenge in 2022.
So logical as it may be in your eyes, that is not his view, and if it is the view of the second referendum campaign then he takes a slightly different view even though he arrives at the same conclusion.
Listen to what EU leaders are saying today. They have come up with a fair deal. It is not perfect. It forms a basis for an orderly departure and building a future relationship. It keeps the Irish happy. It gives the UK quite a lot of what it wants. It seems a pragmatic way of balancing competing interests, especially given the limits which Britain placed on itself. If it is rejected, there is not going to be some magically different better deal pulled out of a hat somewhere.
Instead, in pursuit of some unattainable goal, some Tories are prepared to blow up their party and the country. They are prepared to take that risk, a risk which if it comes true will daamge others, many of whom will not be well able to protect themselves. They are little different from Marxist revolutionaries who want to destroy society so as to build their utopia. They really are beneath contempt.
I am not a Eurofanatic, by a very long measure. Quite the opposite in fact. But the more I have seen of the ERG in recent days, the more I prefer the EU.
Whatever happened to sensible pragmatism?
If it were not about a re-run they would emphasise a lot more that people should be able to confirm no deal or a bad deal if they want, but most of its supporters act like only remain would be on the table.
And good post. Spot on