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The flaw in your argument is that this will be the Leave manifesto under Chequers. Looking forward to making that case?MarqueeMark said:
Try explaining to the British people that if they Remain, they must accept the EU telling us to grasp our ankles - and take whatever is heading our way. Because it is a better thing than Brexit.williamglenn said:
And there are only two ways you can turn against it. Either the nihilism of no deal, or the resignation of Remain. I think it will be a similar dynamic in reverse that will lead to a big bounce for Remain once the deal is on the table, and just imagine how toxic it will be if the government tries to impose a deal that everyone hates?archer101au said:To be fair, so do I. But once I saw Cameron’s renegotiation I started to think Leave would win. That is probably why I believe that when May’s deal is actually available, people will turn against it.
Try making that case in person in Mansfield. Stoke. Hartlepool.0 -
A vole hole.FrancisUrquhart said:
We appear to be disappearing the sort of hole Ross Noble does in one of his live shows...Sean_F said:
Back then, he was SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Tomas.FrancisUrquhart said:
That explains everything...Sean_F said:
Thomas probably transported victims to concentration camps, before fleeing to his current home, at the end of WWII.FrancisUrquhart said:
There was also the classic Guradian article, that accused Thomas of being every -ist under the sun.Sean_F said:
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/rabbit-holes/the-repressive-authoritarian-soul-of-thomas-the-tank-engine-and-friendsJohnRussell said:
Oh do they?! Sorry I didn't knowSean_F said:
Sure, but there are people who seriously believe that Thomas the Tank Engine promotes fascism.JohnRussell said:
Actually, it is easy to react with outrage to any modernisation of an old character, but the proposed changes to Thomas the Tank Engine seem fair enough to me. If your aim is to make a children's story relevant to the modern world, it would be quite poor to not have female/BAME characters. This was one example of the anti PC Worlder's reacting without thinking, in my opinion.Sean_F said:
To add to the other burning questions, is Thomas the Tank Engine a fascist, and is Postman Pat a racist?FrancisUrquhart said:I am surprised we aren't all talking about the most important news story of the day....
Sesame Workshop says Bert and Ernie are 'best friends' and not gay
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45566451
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/22/thomas-the-tank-engine-children-parents
That leads to (wait for it) Vole-holla.....0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
Caught a bit of a shower (after the walk, fortunately). Hope nobody's having too many problems with the weather.0 -
If she doesn't come back with a deal, then the two sides will carry on talking. There is another summit in October and one in December too. I reckon January is about as late as you could realistically go and still have time to ratify without undue pressure becoming counter-productive, and with time to manage the fall-out should one party not ratify.AlastairMeeks said:
If Theresa May doesn't come back with a deal, her position looks pretty untenable, doesn't it? The non-cultists have no reason to prop her up and the ERG already detest her.david_herdson said:
That still won't make it right. If MPs don't vote for any deal, then we leave with no deal (possibly after a delay, but only one delay).Scott_P said:
Punting it back to the public is their only option if they can't, or won't, vote for any deal.david_herdson said:Leave aside that MPs can't just punt it back to the public (they would need an Act of Parliament - they don't just magically happen), and leave aside that there isn't time for MPs to punt it back to the public -
If they are incapable of making a decision, they will ask the public to do it.
Another referendum is the only way to avoid a GE.
A GE is the only to avoid another referendum.
I may have to post this every day until the vote...
FWIW, I think it's quite likely that the Commons will vote for a deal if May comes back with one but you need to think about what you're suggesting, which is that parliament would be prepared to put at least two options - neither of which it accepts in isolation - to the country, with a firm commitment to enact whichever option it opposes the country chooses.
And you still haven't answered *how* MPs ask the public to vote for something, if the government is opposed - and it will be opposed.0 -
Thought you might like it.JosiasJessop said:
That study's fascinating, thanks.Nigelb said:
While we contemplate cementing Eurotunnel shut, there is some interesting research into new bridge forms which might enable spanning the Strait of Gibraltar:AlastairMeeks said:
Number 8 is dangerously close to a serious proposal in these parts.Scott_P said:
http://rspa.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/474/2217/20170726
Though the northern end of any crossing would be built on Spanish territory.
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I'm not looking forward to Chequers.williamglenn said:
The flaw in your argument is that this will be the Leave manifesto under Chequers. Looking forward to making that case?MarqueeMark said:
Try explaining to the British people that if they Remain, they must accept the EU telling us to grasp our ankles - and take whatever is heading our way. Because it is a better thing than Brexit.williamglenn said:
And there are only two ways you can turn against it. Either the nihilism of no deal, or the resignation of Remain. I think it will be a similar dynamic in reverse that will lead to a big bounce for Remain once the deal is on the table, and just imagine how toxic it will be if the government tries to impose a deal that everyone hates?archer101au said:To be fair, so do I. But once I saw Cameron’s renegotiation I started to think Leave would win. That is probably why I believe that when May’s deal is actually available, people will turn against it.
Try making that case in person in Mansfield. Stoke. Hartlepool.
Because Chequers is dead. Let's see what replaces it.0 -
And now a summit in November as well (just announced by Tusk) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45566205david_herdson said:
If she doesn't come back with a deal, then the two sides will carry on talking. There is another summit in October and one in December too. I reckon January is about as late as you could realistically go and still have time to ratify without undue pressure becoming counter-productive, and with time to manage the fall-out should one party not ratify.AlastairMeeks said:
If Theresa May doesn't come back with a deal, her position looks pretty untenable, doesn't it? The non-cultists have no reason to prop her up and the ERG already detest her.david_herdson said:
That still won't make it right. If MPs don't vote for any deal, then we leave with no deal (possibly after a delay, but only one delay).Scott_P said:
Punting it back to the public is their only option if they can't, or won't, vote for any deal.david_herdson said:Leave aside that MPs can't just punt it back to the public (they would need an Act of Parliament - they don't just magically happen), and leave aside that there isn't time for MPs to punt it back to the public -
If they are incapable of making a decision, they will ask the public to do it.
Another referendum is the only way to avoid a GE.
A GE is the only to avoid another referendum.
I may have to post this every day until the vote...
FWIW, I think it's quite likely that the Commons will vote for a deal if May comes back with one but you need to think about what you're suggesting, which is that parliament would be prepared to put at least two options - neither of which it accepts in isolation - to the country, with a firm commitment to enact whichever option it opposes the country chooses.
And you still haven't answered *how* MPs ask the public to vote for something, if the government is opposed - and it will be opposed.0 -
The EU proposal is easier practically but more difficult politically.Richard_Nabavi said:
The current EU proposal is for minimal checks, and those to be carried out not at the border. That is precisely the UK's position, which the EU have previously said is impossible. The only remaining point of difference is whether these now-possible-but-previously-impossible non-checks take place at the mainland/NI crossing or the Irish land border.logical_song said:
Is the border issue in NI easy?Richard_Nabavi said:
No-one, which is why it will be fudged.archer101au said:Let’s attack this from another angle. Only Chequers or some variation of it is now on the table.
So, how many people here would be prepared fo accept the NI backstop proposed by Barnier?
Hell, if the EU can fudge the Northern Cyprus border, they can easily fudge a much easier problem in Ireland.
Won't the agreement have to be in legal language?
Plenty of fudge room there, I think. The EU does have one sensible point, which is that transit by ship is intrinsically easier to manage administratively. I expect that will come into the final agreement in some way.
I think we will end up with a bit of both. A soft border between NI and ROI and a soft border in the Irish sea.0 -
Well actually this is the first rule...FrancisUrquhart said:
Don't get caught spot fixing?Sandpit said:Pakistan in serious danger of breaking the first rule of limited-overs cricket...
Law 1.1 - Number of Players
law 1.1 shall be replaced by the following:
a match is played between two sides. Each side shall consist of 11 players, one of whom shall be captain.
Did they field 12 players ?0 -
Yes, I think that's right. Some kind of special pre-clearing arrangement for the Irish Sea to avoid having to redeclare consignments which are then going to be transported across the border, with the whole of the island declared a single phytosanitary zone, streamlined electronic declarations for cross-border trade, and everything else enforced lazily by occasional spot-checks (as happens now with excise duties and VAT).TheWhiteRabbit said:
The EU proposal is easier practically but more difficult politically.Richard_Nabavi said:
The current EU proposal is for minimal checks, and those to be carried out not at the border. That is precisely the UK's position, which the EU have previously said is impossible. The only remaining point of difference is whether these now-possible-but-previously-impossible non-checks take place at the mainland/NI crossing or the Irish land border.logical_song said:
Is the border issue in NI easy?Richard_Nabavi said:
No-one, which is why it will be fudged.archer101au said:Let’s attack this from another angle. Only Chequers or some variation of it is now on the table.
So, how many people here would be prepared fo accept the NI backstop proposed by Barnier?
Hell, if the EU can fudge the Northern Cyprus border, they can easily fudge a much easier problem in Ireland.
Won't the agreement have to be in legal language?
Plenty of fudge room there, I think. The EU does have one sensible point, which is that transit by ship is intrinsically easier to manage administratively. I expect that will come into the final agreement in some way.
I think we will end up with a bit of both. A soft border between NI and ROI and a soft border in the Irish sea.
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I believe the rule book in India and Pakistan is slightly different.Nigelb said:
Well actually this is the first rule...FrancisUrquhart said:
Don't get caught spot fixing?Sandpit said:Pakistan in serious danger of breaking the first rule of limited-overs cricket...
Law 1.1 - Number of Players
law 1.1 shall be replaced by the following:
a match is played between two sides. Each side shall consist of 11 players, one of whom shall be captain.
Did they field 12 players ?
Law 1.1 - Spot Fixing
- Engaging in spot fixing is done at ones own risk.
- Failure to carry out requested fixes correctly can be seriously damaging to one's health.
- If one is caught doing so, the rest of the team / officials are to deny all knowledge of the fix, even if it was the captain who instructed you in the first place.0 -
Apparently the Lib Dems are thinking of changing their name. Might I suggest "The Sanctimonious Hypocrites"; it has a certain ring about it. (I used to be a LibDem till they revealed their true colours).0
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It is the Irish who were at the forefront of this line of argument:Richard_Nabavi said:
Good pinhead-dancing, but somehow I don't think the Irish (for whose benefit the EU are making a fuss about this in the first place) would be quite so sanguine about the practical effect.AlastairMeeks said:
That's incorrect. The EU's red line relates to a negotiation, not a failure to agree. They would no doubt regret the practical effect, but it is its incorporation in an agreement that is particularly problematic for them, since it would involve their cooperation with this outcome rather than, as they would see it, being forced on them..Richard_Nabavi said:
The problem with the EU's position is that if they don't abandon their red line and as a result there's no deal, then, err, they've just abandoned their red line.Scott_P said:
http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/09/24/is-no-deal-better-than-a-bad-deal-irish-edition/
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I think that’s absolutely right.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, I think that's right. Some kind of special pre-clearing arrangement for the Irish Sea to avoid having to redeclare consignments which are then going to be transported across the border, with the whole of the island declared a single phytosanitary zone, streamlined electronic declarations for cross-border trade, and everything else enforced lazily by occasional spot-checks (as happens now with excise duties and VAT).TheWhiteRabbit said:
The EU proposal is easier practically but more difficult politically.Richard_Nabavi said:
The current EU proposal is for minimal checks, and those to be carried out not at the border. That is precisely the UK's position, which the EU have previously said is impossible. The only remaining point of difference is whether these now-possible-but-previously-impossible non-checks take place at the mainland/NI crossing or the Irish land border.logical_song said:
Is the border issue in NI easy?Richard_Nabavi said:
No-one, which is why it will be fudged.archer101au said:Let’s attack this from another angle. Only Chequers or some variation of it is now on the table.
So, how many people here would be prepared fo accept the NI backstop proposed by Barnier?
Hell, if the EU can fudge the Northern Cyprus border, they can easily fudge a much easier problem in Ireland.
Won't the agreement have to be in legal language?
Plenty of fudge room there, I think. The EU does have one sensible point, which is that transit by ship is intrinsically easier to manage administratively. I expect that will come into the final agreement in some way.
I think we will end up with a bit of both. A soft border between NI and ROI and a soft border in the Irish sea.0 -
This is where I disagree. Barnier wants to end up with an FTA, not May’s customs partnership. Therefore regulations in the UK and EU will diverge or at least the UK would be outside the CU.Richard_Nabavi said:
The current EU proposal is for minimal checks, and those to be carried out not at the border. That is precisely the UK's position, which the EU have previously said is impossible. The only remaining point of difference is whether these now-possible-but-previously-impossible non-checks take place at the mainland/NI crossing or the Irish land border.logical_song said:
Is the border issue in NI easy?Richard_Nabavi said:
No-one, which is why it will be fudged.archer101au said:Let’s attack this from another angle. Only Chequers or some variation of it is now on the table.
So, how many people here would be prepared fo accept the NI backstop proposed by Barnier?
Hell, if the EU can fudge the Northern Cyprus border, they can easily fudge a much easier problem in Ireland.
Won't the agreement have to be in legal language?
Plenty of fudge room there, I think. The EU does have one sensible point, which is that transit by ship is intrinsically easier to manage administratively. I expect that will come into the final agreement in some way.
The question therefore is which set of rules NI follows, not where or how the checks are done. The DUP are quite clear that any system that has NI following different rules to the rest of the UK will be vetoed. And they can bring down the Government independent of whether there are enough votes for May’s deal.
To be fair to May, Chequers (if accepted) would have resolved this because regulations would have been aligned, and the customs partnership would be in place, so the whole UK would be in the same system. But the EU will not accept Chequers and that is why they are obsessed with the backstop,
So until someone explains what the ‘fudge’ will be in legal terms, I just don’t see it.0 -
Does the ratification process need to go through the commission, Eu parliament and member of states own parliaments or council of ministers?david_herdson said:
If she doesn't come back with a deal, then the two sides will carry on talking. There is another summit in October and one in December too. I reckon January is about as late as you could realistically go and still have time to ratify without undue pressure becoming counter-productive, and with time to manage the fall-out should one party not ratify.AlastairMeeks said:
If Theresa May doesn't come back with a deal, her position looks pretty untenable, doesn't it? The non-cultists have no reason to prop her up and the ERG already detest her.david_herdson said:
That still won't make it right. If MPs don't vote for any deal, then we leave with no deal (possibly after a delay, but only one delay).Scott_P said:
Punting it back to the public is their only option if they can't, or won't, vote for any deal.david_herdson said:Leave aside that MPs can't just punt it back to the public (they would need an Act of Parliament - they don't just magically happen), and leave aside that there isn't time for MPs to punt it back to the public -
If they are incapable of making a decision, they will ask the public to do it.
Another referendum is the only way to avoid a GE.
A GE is the only to avoid another referendum.
I may have to post this every day until the vote...
FWIW, I think it's quite likely that the Commons will vote for a deal if May comes back with one but you need to think about what you're suggesting, which is that parliament would be prepared to put at least two options - neither of which it accepts in isolation - to the country, with a firm commitment to enact whichever option it opposes the country chooses.
And you still haven't answered *how* MPs ask the public to vote for something, if the government is opposed - and it will be opposed.
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NI has lots of check and weigh points for lorries. These are spread all over the place and would lend themselves to customs inspectionsRichard_Nabavi said:
The current EU proposal is for minimal checks, and those to be carried out not at the border. That is precisely the UK's position, which the EU have previously said is impossible. The only remaining point of difference is whether these now-possible-but-previously-impossible non-checks take place at the mainland/NI crossing or the Irish land border.logical_song said:
Is the border issue in NI easy?Richard_Nabavi said:
No-one, which is why it will be fudged.archer101au said:Let’s attack this from another angle. Only Chequers or some variation of it is now on the table.
So, how many people here would be prepared fo accept the NI backstop proposed by Barnier?
Hell, if the EU can fudge the Northern Cyprus border, they can easily fudge a much easier problem in Ireland.
Won't the agreement have to be in legal language?
Plenty of fudge room there, I think. The EU does have one sensible point, which is that transit by ship is intrinsically easier to manage administratively. I expect that will come into the final agreement in some way.0 -
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Brings a new meaning to I'll have a P please Bob...
'£6,500 buys a penalty"
According to the information which has been obtained by the BBC, bribery of players and officials is so commonplace in Algerian football that there is a quasi-official 'price list'.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/455498050 -
time marches onAlastairMeeks said:
It is the Irish who were at the forefront of this line of argument:Richard_Nabavi said:
Good pinhead-dancing, but somehow I don't think the Irish (for whose benefit the EU are making a fuss about this in the first place) would be quite so sanguine about the practical effect.AlastairMeeks said:
That's incorrect. The EU's red line relates to a negotiation, not a failure to agree. They would no doubt regret the practical effect, but it is its incorporation in an agreement that is particularly problematic for them, since it would involve their cooperation with this outcome rather than, as they would see it, being forced on them..Richard_Nabavi said:
The problem with the EU's position is that if they don't abandon their red line and as a result there's no deal, then, err, they've just abandoned their red line.Scott_P said:
http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/09/24/is-no-deal-better-than-a-bad-deal-irish-edition/
theyve made no preparations
now theyre bricking it
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Interesting article as are the letters below it. I particularly liked the end of the first paragraph......AlastairMeeks said:
It is the Irish who were at the forefront of this line of argument:Richard_Nabavi said:
Good pinhead-dancing, but somehow I don't think the Irish (for whose benefit the EU are making a fuss about this in the first place) would be quite so sanguine about the practical effect.AlastairMeeks said:
That's incorrect. The EU's red line relates to a negotiation, not a failure to agree. They would no doubt regret the practical effect, but it is its incorporation in an agreement that is particularly problematic for them, since it would involve their cooperation with this outcome rather than, as they would see it, being forced on them..Richard_Nabavi said:
The problem with the EU's position is that if they don't abandon their red line and as a result there's no deal, then, err, they've just abandoned their red line.Scott_P said:
http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/09/24/is-no-deal-better-than-a-bad-deal-irish-edition/
"Of all the vacuous platitudes regularly trotted out by Brexiteers, one of the most irritating is the mantra that “no deal is better than a bad deal”. What, exactly, would such a bad deal look like? We are never informed, making the claim “not even wrong”0 -
The Irish and the British are more alike than either would care to admit, in that regard as in others.Alanbrooke said:
time marches onAlastairMeeks said:
It is the Irish who were at the forefront of this line of argument:Richard_Nabavi said:
Good pinhead-dancing, but somehow I don't think the Irish (for whose benefit the EU are making a fuss about this in the first place) would be quite so sanguine about the practical effect.AlastairMeeks said:
That's incorrect. The EU's red line relates to a negotiation, not a failure to agree. They would no doubt regret the practical effect, but it is its incorporation in an agreement that is particularly problematic for them, since it would involve their cooperation with this outcome rather than, as they would see it, being forced on them..Richard_Nabavi said:
The problem with the EU's position is that if they don't abandon their red line and as a result there's no deal, then, err, they've just abandoned their red line.Scott_P said:
http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/09/24/is-no-deal-better-than-a-bad-deal-irish-edition/
theyve made no preparations
now theyre bricking it0 -
My opinion on the Northern Ireland backstop is "whatever". I think that's quite typical of the general GB public.archer101au said:Let’s attack this from another angle. Only Chequers or some variation of it is now on the table.
So, how many people here would be prepared fo accept the NI backstop proposed by Barnier?0 -
Seven overs short and only 162. India scored 280 at the same ground yesterday, should be a very easy chase for anyone mad enough to bet on matches involving these two sides.
Thankfully I’m surrounded by India supporters, they seem happy with the work of their bowlers.0 -
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Grauniad take on the Posh People's Vote
Summary: A second referendum is certainly not impossible, and People’s Vote are right to highlight how straightforward it would be to suspend article 50. But their analysis downplays the parliamentary and political obstacles in the way, and to claim there are at least six “plausible” paths to a second referendum is probably stretching it a bit. “Conceivable” would probably be a more realistic description ...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/sep/19/brexit-salzburg-eu-summit-theresa-may-tells-tories-not-to-look-down-on-people-in-social-housing-politics-live?page=with:block-5ba24ebbe4b0b5565ec301ba#block-5ba24ebbe4b0b5565ec301ba0 -
Possibly true, but it's hard to code that in legally binding language...NickPalmer said:My opinion on the Northern Ireland backstop is "whatever". I think that's quite typical of the general GB public.
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Anyone who thinks Chequers is "massively unpopular" is spending too much time with ERG types.Slackbladder said:0 -
The poor man's running out of jobs to resign from. I wonder whether he's thought of giving us all a well deserved rest from him.williamglenn said:0 -
LOL! I was thinking of the rule that says you need to bat all your overs.FrancisUrquhart said:
I believe the rule book in India and Pakistan is slightly different.Nigelb said:
Well actually this is the first rule...FrancisUrquhart said:
Don't get caught spot fixing?Sandpit said:Pakistan in serious danger of breaking the first rule of limited-overs cricket...
Law 1.1 - Number of Players
law 1.1 shall be replaced by the following:
a match is played between two sides. Each side shall consist of 11 players, one of whom shall be captain.
Did they field 12 players ?
Law 1.1 - Spot Fixing
- Engaging in spot fixing is done at ones own risk.
- Failure to carry out requested fixes correctly can be seriously damaging to one's health.
- If one is caught doing so, the rest of the team / officials are to deny all knowledge of the fix, even if it was the captain who instructed you in the first place.0 -
Of course not. At 11pm on No Deal Day the Lord God Himself comes down from Heaven and presents the keys to His temple to His blessed Son Jacob Rees-Mogg. All will literally kneel and praise Him (Rees-Mogg).Slackbladder said:
Just you wait and see. Just as Merkins support literally anything Netanyahu does hoping it brings about the Rapture, so the ERG will say and do anything to bring about the British Rapture. Lo, as William Blake said, and did those feet in ancient times walk upon England's pastures green?0 -
Raab has impressed me far more than his predecessor. Had it not been that it lost me £50 I might actually have been happy with the new impetus his appointment has brought.Scott_P said:
Alastair is also missing the fact that the backstop is itself an agreement about what happens if we don't agree something else (the long term partnership).Richard_Nabavi said:
Good pinhead-dancing, but somehow I don't think the Irish (for whose benefit the EU are making a fuss about this in the first place) would be quite so sanguine about the practical effect.AlastairMeeks said:
That's incorrect. The EU's red line relates to a negotiation, not a failure to agree. They would no doubt regret the practical effect, but it is its incorporation in an agreement that is particularly problematic for them, since it would involve their cooperation with this outcome rather than, as they would see it, being forced on them..Richard_Nabavi said:
The problem with the EU's position is that if they don't abandon their red line and as a result there's no deal, then, err, they've just abandoned their red line.Scott_P said:0 -
Narcissism of small differences, and all that.AlastairMeeks said:
The Irish and the British are more alike than either would care to admit, in that regard as in others.Alanbrooke said:
time marches onAlastairMeeks said:
It is the Irish who were at the forefront of this line of argument:Richard_Nabavi said:
Good pinhead-dancing, but somehow I don't think the Irish (for whose benefit the EU are making a fuss about this in the first place) would be quite so sanguine about the practical effect.AlastairMeeks said:
That's incorrect. The EU's red line relates to a negotiation, not a failure to agree. They would no doubt regret the practical effect, but it is its incorporation in an agreement that is particularly problematic for them, since it would involve their cooperation with this outcome rather than, as they would see it, being forced on them..Richard_Nabavi said:
The problem with the EU's position is that if they don't abandon their red line and as a result there's no deal, then, err, they've just abandoned their red line.Scott_P said:
http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/09/24/is-no-deal-better-than-a-bad-deal-irish-edition/
theyve made no preparations
now theyre bricking it0 -
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Something about loving the sound of your own voice?CarlottaVance said:0 -
Still an agreement.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Alastair is also missing the fact that the backstop is itself an agreement about what happens if we don't agree something else (the long term partnership).
I should point out that I'm still expecting a deal. The recent mood music has been worrying (normally at this stage we should be getting the synthetic row in order to make the unveiled deal look more impressive, while in fact we're getting the synthetic expressions of good progress, suggesting that the progress is in fact worse than it should be at this stage). Still, when the darkest hour is reached, I expect dawnings will take place all round.0 -
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just the European Parliament and Westminster. The Council of Ministers will have already signed it off at the point at which it was agreed.notme said:
Does the ratification process need to go through the commission, Eu parliament and member of states own parliaments or council of ministers?david_herdson said:
If she doesn't come back with a deal, then the two sides will carry on talking. There is another summit in October and one in December too. I reckon January is about as late as you could realistically go and still have time to ratify without undue pressure becoming counter-productive, and with time to manage the fall-out should one party not ratify.AlastairMeeks said:
If Theresa May doesn't come back with a deal, her position looks pretty untenable, doesn't it? The non-cultists have no reason to prop her up and the ERG already detest her.david_herdson said:
That still won't make it right. If MPs don't vote for any deal, then we leave with no deal (possibly after a delay, but only one delay).Scott_P said:
Punting it back to the public is their only option if they can't, or won't, vote for any deal.david_herdson said:Leave aside that MPs can't just punt it back to the public (they would need an Act of Parliament - they don't just magically happen), and leave aside that there isn't time for MPs to punt it back to the public -
If they are incapable of making a decision, they will ask the public to do it.
Another referendum is the only way to avoid a GE.
A GE is the only to avoid another referendum.
I may have to post this every day until the vote...
FWIW, I think it's quite likely that the Commons will vote for a deal if May comes back with one but you need to think about what you're suggesting, which is that parliament would be prepared to put at least two options - neither of which it accepts in isolation - to the country, with a firm commitment to enact whichever option it opposes the country chooses.
And you still haven't answered *how* MPs ask the public to vote for something, if the government is opposed - and it will be opposed.0 -
It's easy to envisage on an imagined pb.ie that BrokeOfTheShannon is complacently pointing out Ireland's recent very fine GDP performance and contrasting it with Britain's lacklustre growth over many years.david_herdson said:
Narcissism of small differences, and all that.AlastairMeeks said:
The Irish and the British are more alike than either would care to admit, in that regard as in others.Alanbrooke said:
time marches onAlastairMeeks said:
It is the Irish who were at the forefront of this line of argument:Richard_Nabavi said:
Good pinhead-dancing, but somehow I don't think the Irish (for whose benefit the EU are making a fuss about this in the first place) would be quite so sanguine about the practical effect.AlastairMeeks said:
That's incorrect. The EU's red line relates to a negotiation, not a failure to agree. They would no doubt regret the practical effect, but it is its incorporation in an agreement that is particularly problematic for them, since it would involve their cooperation with this outcome rather than, as they would see it, being forced on them..Richard_Nabavi said:
The problem with the EU's position is that if they don't abandon their red line and as a result there's no deal, then, err, they've just abandoned their red line.Scott_P said:
http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/09/24/is-no-deal-better-than-a-bad-deal-irish-edition/
theyve made no preparations
now theyre bricking it0 -
Changing the name without changing the product is pointless. Either they need to spend some time detoxifying their image, which is quite possible, in which case they can carry on with their existing brand, or they need to be merged into some new party as the junior entity (at least in terms of MPs - the branch and campaign infrastructure would come in useful to an SDP2).franklyn said:Apparently the Lib Dems are thinking of changing their name. Might I suggest "The Sanctimonious Hypocrites"; it has a certain ring about it. (I used to be a LibDem till they revealed their true colours).
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JC is not paranoid he KNOWS they're out to get him!Scott_P said:0 -
In some ways it's the ideal issue for May to pick a political fight over because most people don't really care that much but have an underlying sense that it's an important principle, so she gets to look tough to her heart's content before ultimately agreeing to something almost exactly the same as the starting position, but no-one will look at the detail enough to be bothered.Scott_P said:
Possibly true, but it's hard to code that in legally binding language...NickPalmer said:My opinion on the Northern Ireland backstop is "whatever". I think that's quite typical of the general GB public.
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I agree with the problem but disagree about the solution. Personally I wouldtry to find ~5 Mps willing to defect, maybe a couple of MEPs, whatever, bring them into the LibDems and re-brand it as part of that exercise. A big change in position can be wrapped up with the small new influx, as illogical as that actually is.david_herdson said:
Changing the name without changing the product is pointless. Either they need to spend some time detoxifying their image, which is quite possible, in which case they can carry on with their existing brand, or they need to be merged into some new party as the junior entity (at least in terms of MPs - the branch and campaign infrastructure would come in useful to an SDP2).franklyn said:Apparently the Lib Dems are thinking of changing their name. Might I suggest "The Sanctimonious Hypocrites"; it has a certain ring about it. (I used to be a LibDem till they revealed their true colours).
I think the only common name across Europe that doesn't have baggage here is the Centrists or some variance thereof. "People's party" or "radical" type things tend to sound a bit left-wing...0 -
Likewise Boris and Hunt at the FCO. Rarely can a politician's resignation have been made into such a damp squib by his own successor showing up how poor he was. And it's happened twice simultaneously.TheWhiteRabbit said:[snip]
Raab has impressed me far more than his predecessor. Had it not been that it lost me £50 I might actually have been happy with the new impetus his appointment has brought.0 -
Is it the Jews again?Scott_P said:0 -
To be fair, that seems to be the NRA position:Sean_F said:
Thomas probably transported victims to concentration camps, before fleeing to his current home, at the end of WWII.FrancisUrquhart said:
There was also the classic Guradian article, that accused Thomas of being every -ist under the sun.Sean_F said:
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/rabbit-holes/the-repressive-authoritarian-soul-of-thomas-the-tank-engine-and-friendsJohnRussell said:
Oh do they?! Sorry I didn't knowSean_F said:
Sure, but there are people who seriously believe that Thomas the Tank Engine promotes fascism.JohnRussell said:
Actually, it is easy to react with outrage to any modernisation of an old character, but the proposed changes to Thomas the Tank Engine seem fair enough to me. If your aim is to make a children's story relevant to the modern world, it would be quite poor to not have female/BAME characters. This was one example of the anti PC Worlder's reacting without thinking, in my opinion.Sean_F said:
To add to the other burning questions, is Thomas the Tank Engine a fascist, and is Postman Pat a racist?FrancisUrquhart said:I am surprised we aren't all talking about the most important news story of the day....
Sesame Workshop says Bert and Ernie are 'best friends' and not gay
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45566451
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/22/thomas-the-tank-engine-children-parents
https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1040335962381926401?s=190 -
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There's no border there to fudge - the north of Cyprus is under military occupation, it's not a separate state.Richard_Nabavi said:
Hell, if the EU can fudge the Northern Cyprus border, they can easily fudge a much easier problem in Ireland.
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you can of course join in but they dont appear that worried about BrexitAlastairMeeks said:
It's easy to envisage on an imagined pb.ie that BrokeOfTheShannon is complacently pointing out Ireland's recent very fine GDP performance and contrasting it with Britain's lacklustre growth over many years.david_herdson said:
Narcissism of small differences, and all that.AlastairMeeks said:
The Irish and the British are more alike than either would care to admit, in that regard as in others.Alanbrooke said:
time marches onAlastairMeeks said:
It is the Irish who were at the forefront of this line of argument:Richard_Nabavi said:
Good pinhead-dancing, but somehow I don't think the Irish (for whose benefit the EU are making a fuss about this in the first place) would be quite so sanguine about the practical effect.AlastairMeeks said:
That's incorrect. The EU's red line relates to a negotiation, not a failure to agree. They would no doubt regret the practical effect, but it is its incorporation in an agreement that is particularly problematic for them, since it would involve their cooperation with this outcome rather than, as they would see it, being forced on them..Richard_Nabavi said:
The problem with the EU's position is that if they don't abandon their red line and as a result there's no deal, then, err, they've just abandoned their red line.Scott_P said:
http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/09/24/is-no-deal-better-than-a-bad-deal-irish-edition/
theyve made no preparations
now theyre bricking it
http://www.politics.ie/0 -
BBC report from Salzburg says the EU cannot understand the problem with checking goods at NI ports and why no British PM could accept such a proposition, and this will drag on as a problem
However, the report also said the EU do not believe TM will walk away but if that happened the whole situation would change.
I am not hoping this happens but if TM decides the EU cannot negotiate and she tells the leaders that she and her delegation are terminating talks with immediate effect and will now proceed on WTO, just what happens both here in the UK and in the EU, and especially Ireland who would be economically devastated
By the way, I have not become Aussie Archer, I am just expanding the conversation following a suggestion in a BBC report earlier this afternoon0 -
Her advantage is that she acted in good faith, negotiated with intent and delivered a plan. If she delivers an option for an orderly Brexit which Brussels can endorse she will have fulfilled her commitment to honour the will of the people. She will have changed a loud howl of a protest into a cold-blooded proposal to fundamentally change Britain’s place in the world.Scott_P said:
If the electorate – confronted with a clearer, starker proposal – endorse it, she will have delivered Brexit. If they reject it, she could rightly claim that the UK had had second thoughts, not that she had scuppered the dream. History will remember her, and most of our grandchildren will thank her.0 -
LOL, you crawled out from under your rock for another pasting worzel.Nigel_Foremain said:
The irony of that statement is obviously beyond your very limited intellect. Aside from that it is also very rich coming from an SNP supporter, the most bigoted party in the UK ( aside from their similar namesake, the BNP)malcolmg said:
Bigots to the end, it is the Tory way.hamiltonace said:
Can anyone give me an example of where a virtual border exists elsewhere and how it works?archer101au said:
Of course. The new offer is exactly the same as the original in legal form, but dressed up to look nicer. Didn’t stop some on here proclaiming that a deal had already been done.williamglenn said:
May is going to tell the EU that the NI backstop will not get past the DUP. Will they listen? I doubt it.
It is not just the DUP that will vote against a border in the Irish Sea I cannot see the Scot Tories being prepared to accept a move against unionism in Ireland. They depend on the orange vote which is surprisingly strong still.0 -
then Mr Varadkar could perhaps oblige the meeting and explain whyBig_G_NorthWales said:BBC report from Salzburg says the EU cannot understand the problem with checking goods at NI ports and why no British PM could accept such a proposition, and this will drag on as a problem
However, the report also said the EU do not believe TM will walk away but if that happened the whole situation would change.
I am not hoping this happens but if TM decides the EU cannot negotiate and she tells the leaders that she and her delegation are terminating talks with immediate effect and will now proceed on WTO, just what happens both here in the UK and in the EU, and especially Ireland who would be economically devastated
By the way, I have not become Aussie Archer, I am just expanding the conversation following a suggestion in a BBC report earlier this afternoon0 -
Alexandre Benalla, the security official who sparked the biggest scandal of Emmanuel Macron’s presidency when he was filmed illegally dressed as a police officer beating people on the edge of a demonstration, has told the French senate he wasn’t the president’s official bodyguard but was allowed to carry a handgun because he was concerned for his own safety.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/19/macron-aide-accused-of-beating-protesters-was-not-bodyguard0 -
I bet 98% of population have no clue what Chequers means and have more pressing matters to care about.david_herdson said:
Anyone who thinks Chequers is "massively unpopular" is spending too much time with ERG types.Slackbladder said:0 -
G , Both sides are stupid enough to end up with NO Deal for certain, their interests are political not what is best for UK or EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC report from Salzburg says the EU cannot understand the problem with checking goods at NI ports and why no British PM could accept such a proposition, and this will drag on as a problem
However, the report also said the EU do not believe TM will walk away but if that happened the whole situation would change.
I am not hoping this happens but if TM decides the EU cannot negotiate and she tells the leaders that she and her delegation are terminating talks with immediate effect and will now proceed on WTO, just what happens both here in the UK and in the EU, and especially Ireland who would be economically devastated
By the way, I have not become Aussie Archer, I am just expanding the conversation following a suggestion in a BBC report earlier this afternoon0 -
I don't think passive indifference about the fate of Brexit will help it get across the line. On the contrary it will fuel calls to abandon the whole thing.malcolmg said:
I bet 98% of population have no clue what Chequers means and have more pressing matters to care about.david_herdson said:
Anyone who thinks Chequers is "massively unpopular" is spending too much time with ERG types.Slackbladder said:0 -
And if we hear the word "abortion" once we will hear it a thousand times.williamglenn said:
In some ways it's the ideal issue for May to pick a political fight over because most people don't really care that much but have an underlying sense that it's an important principle, so she gets to look tough to her heart's content before ultimately agreeing to something almost exactly the same as the starting position, but no-one will look at the detail enough to be bothered.Scott_P said:
Possibly true, but it's hard to code that in legally binding language...NickPalmer said:My opinion on the Northern Ireland backstop is "whatever". I think that's quite typical of the general GB public.
0 -
it will fuel curmudgeonly stuff thems and we will become even more sceptical.williamglenn said:
I don't think passive indifference about the fate of Brexit will help it get across the line. On the contrary it will fuel calls to abandon the whole thing.malcolmg said:
I bet 98% of population have no clue what Chequers means and have more pressing matters to care about.david_herdson said:
Anyone who thinks Chequers is "massively unpopular" is spending too much time with ERG types.Slackbladder said:
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Hi Malc - assume the Arran ferries are tied up in dock. Beautiful island where some of my wife's family are laid to restmalcolmg said:
LOL, you crawled out from under your rock for another pasting worzel.Nigel_Foremain said:
The irony of that statement is obviously beyond your very limited intellect. Aside from that it is also very rich coming from an SNP supporter, the most bigoted party in the UK ( aside from their similar namesake, the BNP)malcolmg said:
Bigots to the end, it is the Tory way.hamiltonace said:
Can anyone give me an example of where a virtual border exists elsewhere and how it works?archer101au said:
Of course. The new offer is exactly the same as the original in legal form, but dressed up to look nicer. Didn’t stop some on here proclaiming that a deal had already been done.williamglenn said:
May is going to tell the EU that the NI backstop will not get past the DUP. Will they listen? I doubt it.
It is not just the DUP that will vote against a border in the Irish Sea I cannot see the Scot Tories being prepared to accept a move against unionism in Ireland. They depend on the orange vote which is surprisingly strong still.0 -
You may be right but I hope notmalcolmg said:
G , Both sides are stupid enough to end up with NO Deal for certain, their interests are political not what is best for UK or EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC report from Salzburg says the EU cannot understand the problem with checking goods at NI ports and why no British PM could accept such a proposition, and this will drag on as a problem
However, the report also said the EU do not believe TM will walk away but if that happened the whole situation would change.
I am not hoping this happens but if TM decides the EU cannot negotiate and she tells the leaders that she and her delegation are terminating talks with immediate effect and will now proceed on WTO, just what happens both here in the UK and in the EU, and especially Ireland who would be economically devastated
By the way, I have not become Aussie Archer, I am just expanding the conversation following a suggestion in a BBC report earlier this afternoon0 -
It’s baffling that they don’t understand the indivisibility of our single market, given they whine on about their own all the time...Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC report from Salzburg says the EU cannot understand the problem with checking goods at NI ports and why no British PM could accept such a proposition, and this will drag on as a problem
However, the report also said the EU do not believe TM will walk away but if that happened the whole situation would change.
I am not hoping this happens but if TM decides the EU cannot negotiate and she tells the leaders that she and her delegation are terminating talks with immediate effect and will now proceed on WTO, just what happens both here in the UK and in the EU, and especially Ireland who would be economically devastated
By the way, I have not become Aussie Archer, I am just expanding the conversation following a suggestion in a BBC report earlier this afternoon0 -
Indeed - beyond knowing it's an easy version of chess not much further do they go.malcolmg said:
I bet 98% of population have no clue what Chequers means and have more pressing matters to care about.david_herdson said:
Anyone who thinks Chequers is "massively unpopular" is spending too much time with ERG types.Slackbladder said:0 -
Mr. Mortimer, it's either gross stupidity or a rancid, open effort to drive a dividing line without a sovereign (apparently) nation that wishes to leave the EU.0
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Oh the calls are loud and strong but they come from a very limited constituency and there is little real enthusiasm in the UK for the EU. It is sad but true and none of the calamities since the vote have substantially changed that.williamglenn said:
I don't think passive indifference about the fate of Brexit will help it get across the line. On the contrary it will fuel calls to abandon the whole thing.malcolmg said:
I bet 98% of population have no clue what Chequers means and have more pressing matters to care about.david_herdson said:
Anyone who thinks Chequers is "massively unpopular" is spending too much time with ERG types.Slackbladder said:0 -
From my limited experience, a bit of a breeze is ideal summer weather on Arran - keeps the *&$%%&*^ midges away.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hi Malc - assume the Arran ferries are tied up in dock. Beautiful island where some of my wife's family are laid to restmalcolmg said:
LOL, you crawled out from under your rock for another pasting worzel.Nigel_Foremain said:
The irony of that statement is obviously beyond your very limited intellect. Aside from that it is also very rich coming from an SNP supporter, the most bigoted party in the UK ( aside from their similar namesake, the BNP)malcolmg said:
Bigots to the end, it is the Tory way.hamiltonace said:
Can anyone give me an example of where a virtual border exists elsewhere and how it works?archer101au said:
Of course. The new offer is exactly the same as the original in legal form, but dressed up to look nicer. Didn’t stop some on here proclaiming that a deal had already been done.williamglenn said:
May is going to tell the EU that the NI backstop will not get past the DUP. Will they listen? I doubt it.
It is not just the DUP that will vote against a border in the Irish Sea I cannot see the Scot Tories being prepared to accept a move against unionism in Ireland. They depend on the orange vote which is surprisingly strong still.0 -
So you accept that divergence from a single market creates division?Mortimer said:
It’s baffling that they don’t understand the indivisibility of our single market, given they whine on about their own all the time...Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC report from Salzburg says the EU cannot understand the problem with checking goods at NI ports and why no British PM could accept such a proposition, and this will drag on as a problem
However, the report also said the EU do not believe TM will walk away but if that happened the whole situation would change.
I am not hoping this happens but if TM decides the EU cannot negotiate and she tells the leaders that she and her delegation are terminating talks with immediate effect and will now proceed on WTO, just what happens both here in the UK and in the EU, and especially Ireland who would be economically devastated
By the way, I have not become Aussie Archer, I am just expanding the conversation following a suggestion in a BBC report earlier this afternoon0 -
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/ng-interactive/2018/sep/19/nfl-rooney-rule-coaching-statistics
Next they will be wondering why nearly all 100m sprinters are black and javelin throwers are white.
American football is a sport where lots of players change position throughout college and even into the pros. It is because they place a huge amount of weight on physical attributes and in particular performances at the "Combine".
Recently a number of Rugby players have been signed up solely on their ability to post big numbers in these tests, despite never having even played American Football before as did the guy who threw the discus for GB in 2010.0 -
You are right, with absolutely no deal we are talking disaster level of crisis. But a no deal with a series of agreements to keep lorries driving, planes flying and nuclear energy plants working can be knocked out quickly.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You may be right but I hope notmalcolmg said:
G , Both sides are stupid enough to end up with NO Deal for certain, their interests are political not what is best for UK or EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC report from Salzburg says the EU cannot understand the problem with checking goods at NI ports and why no British PM could accept such a proposition, and this will drag on as a problem
However, the report also said the EU do not believe TM will walk away but if that happened the whole situation would change.
I am not hoping this happens but if TM decides the EU cannot negotiate and she tells the leaders that she and her delegation are terminating talks with immediate effect and will now proceed on WTO, just what happens both here in the UK and in the EU, and especially Ireland who would be economically devastated
By the way, I have not become Aussie Archer, I am just expanding the conversation following a suggestion in a BBC report earlier this afternoon0 -
NEW FRED0
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Goodwin's law?bigjohnowls said:NEW FRED
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Most of the boats were cancelled today , was a real houlie. Seems to be dying down a bit now, still heavy winds but not just as bad.JosiasJessop said:
From my limited experience, a bit of a breeze is ideal summer weather on Arran - keeps the *&$%%&*^ midges away.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Hi Malc - assume the Arran ferries are tied up in dock. Beautiful island where some of my wife's family are laid to restmalcolmg said:
LOL, you crawled out from under your rock for another pasting worzel.Nigel_Foremain said:
The irony of that statement is obviously beyond your very limited intellect. Aside from that it is also very rich coming from an SNP supporter, the most bigoted party in the UK ( aside from their similar namesake, the BNP)malcolmg said:
Bigots to the end, it is the Tory way.hamiltonace said:
Can anyone give me an example of where a virtual border exists elsewhere and how it works?archer101au said:
Of course. The new offer is exactly the same as the original in legal form, but dressed up to look nicer. Didn’t stop some on here proclaiming that a deal had already been done.williamglenn said:
May is going to tell the EU that the NI backstop will not get past the DUP. Will they listen? I doubt it.
It is not just the DUP that will vote against a border in the Irish Sea I cannot see the Scot Tories being prepared to accept a move against unionism in Ireland. They depend on the orange vote which is surprisingly strong still.0
This discussion has been closed.