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edited July 2018 in General

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  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    The confidence motion threat arguably forced May to accept the four ERG amendments.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,802
    What pisses me off is that the issue of what sort of Brexit we will get has become inextricably bound up with whether May survives or not.

    I couldn't care less about the latter. I care a lot about the former. The fact that the Tories are confusing the two is making me despise them more and more.

  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    OblitusSumMe said:

    The confidence motion threat arguably forced May to accept the four ERG amendments.

    And the no confidence motion threat reduced the number of rebels on the customs union vote which was won 307 to 301.

    The problem with May is you never know quite whose side she is on - maybe her sole objective is to keep going on and on and proving everyone wrong. I can't believe that she can be enjoying this all. Surely retirement with Phikip in Sonning can't come soon enough.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    Yes, laying 2018 is value. She won't be No Confidenced this side of the October EU summit, and even if she is, and the vote then carried, it's not a given that the ensuing election would be concluded before the beginning of 2019.

    In any case, I don't expect a deal in October, not least because there's another scheduled summit in December, which is rather more like crunch time - though even that's not really.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,445
    brendan16 said:

    OblitusSumMe said:

    The confidence motion threat arguably forced May to accept the four ERG amendments.

    And the no confidence motion threat reduced the number of rebels on the customs union vote which was won 307 to 301.

    The problem with May is you never know quite whose side she is on - maybe her sole objective is to keep going on and on and proving everyone wrong. I can't believe that she can be enjoying this all. Surely retirement with Phikip in Sonning can't come soon enough.
    30th March next year.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    brendan16 said:

    OblitusSumMe said:

    The confidence motion threat arguably forced May to accept the four ERG amendments.

    And the no confidence motion threat reduced the number of rebels on the customs union vote which was won 307 to 301.

    The problem with May is you never know quite whose side she is on - maybe her sole objective is to keep going on and on and proving everyone wrong. I can't believe that she can be enjoying this all. Surely retirement with Phikip in Sonning can't come soon enough.
    May is a weeble. It's the only explanation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,521
    PeterC said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    So the big question today is has TM done the right thing by becoming the chief negotiator and is she now driving a deal and taking on ERG

    There is a pattern here. Brexiteers and Remainers take it in turns to be thrown under a bus by TM's edicts, which appear out of thin air. She is accumulating a mighty list of enemies. Her 'deal' will appear likewise at the last minute, and parliament will be bounced into a take this or crash out ultimatum.
    Which they won't take. Corbyn's not saving it, and enough of her lot want to crash out.

    But on any case I think she is right to take things on. I thought in effect she already had. She has nothing to lose by doing it and the future contest will be full of people who were in cabinet or still are claiming they'd have differently but may did it all, so it gives them an out. Not a plausible one, by something , and since she's not long from the job why not have her take on it all, a poison eater if you will.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    Cyclefree said:

    What pisses me off is that the issue of what sort of Brexit we will get has become inextricably bound up with whether May survives or not.

    I couldn't care less about the latter. I care a lot about the former. The fact that the Tories are confusing the two is making me despise them more and more.

    The two are linked. However, I don't think there are many Tories at all who would put keeping May in power above the kind of Brexit we get. There might be a lot (and indeed many outside the Party), who want to keep her in place so as to avoid someone they don't want from becoming PM but that's a different thing and not really about May at all. Indeed, it's very probably in large part about Brexit.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Cyclefree said:

    What pisses me off is that the issue of what sort of Brexit we will get has become inextricably bound up with whether May survives or not.

    I couldn't care less about the latter. I care a lot about the former. The fact that the Tories are confusing the two is making me despise them more and more.

    As things stand at the moment I can't see May, or any other Tory leader, being able to put together an exit deal acceptable to the EU, the Tory Party and Parliament. We are heading for a crisis which will end either in a cliff edge exit or a humiliating volte face with the UK accepting the EU's terms. May's government will not survive either of these eventualities.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,521
    Survival on its own is not enough. There needs to be something achieved. One would hope the tory party no longer pretending it can unite and the gov just pickin an option would have been some achievement, albeit very much too late, but alas no, still they argue.

    It's an odd summer for May. She knows her deal is dead - she's already changed it, the EU won't accept it, the rest of the party won't accept more changes, Labour won't touch it, remainers are going for a referendum not the deal, the members hate it - but will presumably spend pointless weeks on it from now on.

    Not a very productive use of time - anyone banking on no deal scares tories, true or not, to turn the tide toward a deal, presuming she can get one, is mistaken. If believed it's more likely to push people toward remain imo.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,521
    david_herdson said:

    Yes, laying 2018 is value. She won't be No Confidenced this side of the October EU summit, and even if she is, and the vote then carried, it's not a given that the ensuing election would be concluded before the beginning of 2019.

    In any case, I don't expect a deal in October, not least because there's another scheduled summit in December, which is rather more like crunch time - though even that's not really.

    So we can look forward to frantic panic in October, then everyone pushes it back to December and so on. Great.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,521
    Cyclefree said:

    What pisses me off is that the issue of what sort of Brexit we will get has become inextricably bound up with whether May survives or not.

    I couldn't care less about the latter. I care a lot about the former. The fact that the Tories are confusing the two is making me despise them more and more.

    It's very irresponsible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,521
    Sean_F said:

    rottenborough said:

    So, unless I blinked, BBC News at 10 did not mention the 'adequate food' stockpiling that Raab revealed.

    WTF?

    Perhaps most people are more level-headed than we are?
    Most people, perhaps (at least in not overreacting to politics), but the media?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,719
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rottenborough said:

    So, unless I blinked, BBC News at 10 did not mention the 'adequate food' stockpiling that Raab revealed.

    WTF?

    Perhaps most people are more level-headed than we are?
    Most people, perhaps (at least in not overreacting to politics), but the media?
    Newsnight leading on it.

    Britain will be entering silly season headless chicken mode shortly.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,558
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1021870888319414272

    The good old Republicans, free market believers and haters of big government, now supporting a man who is literally handing out free tax payers money to stop his base revolting against his own mad economic theories.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,559
    rottenborough said:

    The good old Republicans, free market believers and haters of big government, now supporting a man who is literally handing out free tax payers money to stop his base revolting against his own mad economic theories.

    I can't decide whether the GOP are true believers now or are merely waiting for someone senior enough to call Trump's bluff and then the whole damn charade will collapse over night.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,791
    glw said:

    rottenborough said:

    The good old Republicans, free market believers and haters of big government, now supporting a man who is literally handing out free tax payers money to stop his base revolting against his own mad economic theories.

    I can't decide whether the GOP are true believers now or are merely waiting for someone senior enough to call Trump's bluff and then the whole damn charade will collapse over night.
    Most people (even in politics) aren't ideological.

    It's Who/Whom.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,367
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rottenborough said:

    So, unless I blinked, BBC News at 10 did not mention the 'adequate food' stockpiling that Raab revealed.

    WTF?

    Perhaps most people are more level-headed than we are?
    Most people, perhaps (at least in not overreacting to politics), but the media?
    Newsnight leading on it.

    Britain will be entering silly season headless chicken mode shortly.
    Some vegetarian headless-chicken-substitute for me, please :)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1021875027493445632

    https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1021875754995351552
  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 606
    brendan16 said:

    OblitusSumMe said:

    The confidence motion threat arguably forced May to accept the four ERG amendments.

    And the no confidence motion threat reduced the number of rebels on the customs union vote which was won 307 to 301.

    The problem with May is you never know quite whose side she is on - maybe her sole objective is to keep going on and on and proving everyone wrong. I can't believe that she can be enjoying this all. Surely retirement with Phikip in Sonning can't come soon enough.
    As long she doesn't bloody retire to Wales. We've had enough of her mountain walking escapades.
  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 606
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rottenborough said:

    So, unless I blinked, BBC News at 10 did not mention the 'adequate food' stockpiling that Raab revealed.

    WTF?

    Perhaps most people are more level-headed than we are?
    Most people, perhaps (at least in not overreacting to politics), but the media?
    Newsnight leading on it.

    Britain will be entering silly season headless chicken mode shortly.
    Some vegetarian headless-chicken-substitute for me, please :)
    As a fellow veggie does all this talk of meat substitutes with bllod dripping from it make you want to throw up? It does me.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,791
    Re Ian Paisley Jnr. Will the DUP just ditch him if there's a recall petition? He doesn't seem to be well-regarded within the party, and any other DUP candidate would retain the seat in a by-election.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    SeanT said:

    I wonder if she might start getting some credit simply for Being There, and taking on the Tedious Task of Brexit.

    No one else wants the job. She is prepared to grit her teeth and set herself to this almost impossible endeavour. There is something admirable in it. This annoying, cold, autistic vicar's daughter is sitting there, day after day, trying to cobble together something that won't crash the economy yet still honours the referendum.

    I am in a particularly benign mood this evening - it might be the weather, the wine, the season, the writing, a commission to go Sri Lanka, a lower tax bill than I anticipated - but I am feeling more sympathetic to the Maybot.

    She's got a bloody horrible job, but she's doing it. As best she can. And I am really not sure anyone could do better.

    Peter Sellers' last film.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being_There
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited July 2018
    SeanT said:

    I wonder if she might start getting some credit simply for Being There, and taking on the Tedious Task of Brexit.

    No one else wants the job. She is prepared to grit her teeth and set herself to this almost impossible endeavour. There is something admirable in it. This annoying, cold, autistic vicar's daughter is sitting there, day after day, trying to cobble together something that won't crash the economy yet still honours the referendum.

    I am in a particularly benign mood this evening - it might be the weather, the wine, the season, the writing, a commission to go Sri Lanka, a lower tax bill than I anticipated - but I am feeling more sympathetic to the Maybot.

    She's got a bloody horrible job, but she's doing it. As best she can. And I am really not sure anyone could do better.

    On the other hand, I just watched her "Q&A" from yesterday, and Christ, she's not getting any better at this stuff... full of awkward laughs, terrified facial expressions, word-stumbling, awkward posture, voice wobbling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSL4x5q56mw&t=1829s
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,521
    SeanT said:

    I wonder if she might start getting some credit simply for Being There, and taking on the Tedious Task of Brexit.

    No one else wants the job. She is prepared to grit her teeth and set herself to this almost impossible endeavour. There is something admirable in it. This annoying, cold, autistic vicar's daughter is sitting there, day after day, trying to cobble together something that won't crash the economy yet still honours the referendum.

    I am in a particularly benign mood this evening - it might be the weather, the wine, the season, the writing, a commission to go Sri Lanka, a lower tax bill than I anticipated - but I am feeling more sympathetic to the Maybot.

    She's got a bloody horrible job, but she's doing it. As best she can. And I am really not sure anyone could do better.

    There might be, but noone else wants it. I bet not even corbyn, though his job means he has to pretend to.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,521
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1021875027493445632

    https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1021875754995351552

    I think we all could have predicted that.
  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 606
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rottenborough said:

    So, unless I blinked, BBC News at 10 did not mention the 'adequate food' stockpiling that Raab revealed.

    WTF?

    Perhaps most people are more level-headed than we are?
    Most people, perhaps (at least in not overreacting to politics), but the media?
    Newsnight leading on it.

    Britain will be entering silly season headless chicken mode shortly.
    The threat of food shortages could be a game changer. Particularly if the Mail and Sun run with it(perversely ).People will take note.
  • RightChuckRightChuck Posts: 111
    "The confidence motion threat was all piss and wind from the Brexiteers".

    Or more subtle than you understood.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "British jihadis should face new treason law, former Home Secretary, MI5 chief and Lord Chief Justice say"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/24/british-jihadis-should-face-new-treason-law-former-home-secretary/
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    AndyJS said:

    "British jihadis should face new treason law, former Home Secretary, MI5 chief and Lord Chief Justice say"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/24/british-jihadis-should-face-new-treason-law-former-home-secretary/

    I thought Twitter had decided to deport all the Muslims, so this is surely moot.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2018
    That's interesting: last night on here I posted a comment about the possibility of riots this year, and a few hours later an article on the same subject appears in the Spectator. Maybe PB is popular with Spectator columnists.

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/could-this-summer-see-a-repeat-of-the-2011-riots/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,317
    SeanT said:

    She's not quitting, put it that way. They will have to stab her in the front.

    The bloody difficult woman is here to stay, and she's going to be bloody difficult to shift.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,791
    AndyJS said:

    "British jihadis should face new treason law, former Home Secretary, MI5 chief and Lord Chief Justice say"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/24/british-jihadis-should-face-new-treason-law-former-home-secretary/

    I view British jihadists the same way as British people who decide to import heroin to Indonesia or molest children in Vietnam. If the locals kill them, or deport them to countries that will kill them, well, they brought their fates on themselves.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,719
    AndyJS said:

    That's interesting: last night on here I posted a comment about the possibility of riots this year, and a few hours later an article on the same subject appears in the Spectator. Maybe PB is popular with Spectator columnists.

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/could-this-summer-see-a-repeat-of-the-2011-riots/

    I can see it happening. All it takes is some trigger incident.
  • ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 1,541
    SeanT: You linked to a Pillastro on the last thread. Not sure if you saw this:
    https://www.laithwaites.co.uk/product/0307816
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Company captures carbon dioxide from the air in quest to avoid CO2 shortages

    Low supplies of CO2 recently affected multiple industries, but there is hope that new technology could avoid further shortages."

    https://news.sky.com/story/company-captures-carbon-dioxide-from-the-air-in-quest-to-avoid-co2-shortages-11446011
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    That's interesting: last night on here I posted a comment about the possibility of riots this year, and a few hours later an article on the same subject appears in the Spectator. Maybe PB is popular with Spectator columnists.

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/could-this-summer-see-a-repeat-of-the-2011-riots/

    I can see it happening. All it takes is some trigger incident.
    Watirose finally withdraws their paper cups and you have to bring your own reusable cup to get your free tea and coffee?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,791
    brendan16 said:

    Foxy said:

    AndyJS said:

    That's interesting: last night on here I posted a comment about the possibility of riots this year, and a few hours later an article on the same subject appears in the Spectator. Maybe PB is popular with Spectator columnists.

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/could-this-summer-see-a-repeat-of-the-2011-riots/

    I can see it happening. All it takes is some trigger incident.
    Watirose finally withdraws their paper cups and you have to bring your own reusable cup to get your free tea and coffee?
    Andrew Adonis calls for a (rich ) peoples' uprising against Brexit.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,317
    If the climate stays like this perhaps we'll have more than English sparkling wine to celebrate.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,719
    williamglenn said:

    SeanT said:

    She's not quitting, put it that way. They will have to stab her in the front.

    The bloody difficult woman is here to stay, and she's going to be bloody difficult to shift.
    She is that unflushable turd, that happens when visiting. No matter how frantically you pump the handle, it bobs back to the surface.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,961
    edited July 2018
    Bizarre that Jezza now sounds more positive and strident about Brexit than Theresa May.

    Want to get Brexit done? Vote Jezza. :D
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,791
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "British jihadis should face new treason law, former Home Secretary, MI5 chief and Lord Chief Justice say"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/24/british-jihadis-should-face-new-treason-law-former-home-secretary/

    I view British jihadists the same way as British people who decide to import heroin to Indonesia or molest children in Vietnam. If the locals kill them, or deport them to countries that will kill them, well, they brought their fates on themselves.
    Ideally we should deceive them, say we're going to help them, then get them translocated to Iraq or somewhere equally savage, where they will be tried quickly, and shot.
    I just don't see what the issue is about the two held by the Kurds. They aren't our problem.
  • RightChuckRightChuck Posts: 111
    SeanT said:

    I wonder if she might start getting some credit simply for Being There, and taking on the Tedious Task of Brexit.

    No one else wants the job. She is prepared to grit her teeth and set herself to this almost impossible endeavour. There is something admirable in it. This annoying, cold, autistic vicar's daughter is sitting there, day after day, trying to cobble together something that won't crash the economy yet still honours the referendum.

    I am in a particularly benign mood this evening - it might be the weather, the wine, the season, the writing, a commission to go Sri Lanka, a lower tax bill than I anticipated - but I am feeling more sympathetic to the Maybot.

    She's got a bloody horrible job, but she's doing it. As best she can. And I am really not sure anyone could do better.

    I think that's exactly how she sees it.
  • ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 1,541
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "British jihadis should face new treason law, former Home Secretary, MI5 chief and Lord Chief Justice say"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/24/british-jihadis-should-face-new-treason-law-former-home-secretary/

    I view British jihadists the same way as British people who decide to import heroin to Indonesia or molest children in Vietnam. If the locals kill them, or deport them to countries that will kill them, well, they brought their fates on themselves.
    Ideally we should deceive them, say we're going to help them, then get them translocated to Iraq or somewhere equally savage, where they will be tried quickly, and shot.
    Stone them. With 1000lb lumps of laser guided concrete
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,961
    Foxy said:

    williamglenn said:

    SeanT said:

    She's not quitting, put it that way. They will have to stab her in the front.

    The bloody difficult woman is here to stay, and she's going to be bloody difficult to shift.
    She is that unflushable turd, that happens when visiting. No matter how frantically you pump the handle, it bobs back to the surface.
    Have no fear the voters will flush her and the Tories down the pan at the next available opportunity.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.
  • RightChuckRightChuck Posts: 111
    SeanT said:

    Danny565 said:

    SeanT said:

    I wonder if she might start getting some credit simply for Being There, and taking on the Tedious Task of Brexit.

    No one else wants the job. She is prepared to grit her teeth and set herself to this almost impossible endeavour. There is something admirable in it. This annoying, cold, autistic vicar's daughter is sitting there, day after day, trying to cobble together something that won't crash the economy yet still honours the referendum.

    I am in a particularly benign mood this evening - it might be the weather, the wine, the season, the writing, a commission to go Sri Lanka, a lower tax bill than I anticipated - but I am feeling more sympathetic to the Maybot.

    She's got a bloody horrible job, but she's doing it. As best she can. And I am really not sure anyone could do better.

    On the other hand, I just watched her "Q&A" from yesterday, and Christ, she's not getting any better at this stuff... full of awkward laughs, terrified facial expressions, word-stumbling, awkward posture, voice wobbling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSL4x5q56mw&t=1829s
    Oh, I agree. She is dislikeable and charmless (and, I am pretty sure, a fair way down the autistic spectrum). But she might be the right sort of person to do the boring boring boring task of Brexit. A determined librarian with a bit of stubborn bravery.

    She has no kids. She has nothing exciting and different to retire to, no apparent hinterland, no huge cultural interests, no writing or artistic ability, she's not going to be the UN Envoy for Making Even More Money For Myself, like Tony Blair. This is her job, the best job she will ever have, she's at the top, she beat the posh boys, and she's got a world class problem to deal with, her premiership counts even if it only lasts 3 years.

    She's not quitting, put it that way. They will have to stab her in the front.
    Exactly and precisely.
  • Torby_FennelTorby_Fennel Posts: 438
    May's great strength is that although there are dozen of Conservative MPs who would like to replace her there are probably none who would like to inherit the present issues that the job involves dealing with.
  • ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 1,541
    Torby_Fennel said:

    May's great strength is that although there are dozen of Conservative MPs who would like to replace her there are probably none who would like to inherit the present issues that the job involves dealing with.

    I suspect there is one person who believes he has the Chuchillian drive to do it. I'm just not sure that his colleagues trust him or think the situation is bad enough yet.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,367
    edited July 2018
    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,875
    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Degrassi Junior High. Arthur. The one about the kids in a dance school. Mostly kids stuff.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,875
    Littlest Hobo. Arguably Fraggle Rock.
  • RightChuckRightChuck Posts: 111
    dixiedean said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Degrassi Junior High. Arthur. The one about the kids in a dance school. Mostly kids stuff.
    My daughter (and I) loved this when it was on. Sort of qualifies...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoebox_Zoo
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,875
    Canadian TV. Second City TV was the basis and inspiration for Saturday Night Live. Many of the shows early stars transferred over. John Candy, Rick Moranis, Harold Ramis, Dave Thomas.
    It was widely shown in the US, though never made it over here. Mike Myers started on it too.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,875
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
    Canadian PM 57-63. Diefenbaker that is.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,317
    dixiedean said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
    Canadian PM 57-63. Diefenbaker that is.
    His dog was Canadian PM?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    dixiedean said:

    Canadian TV. Second City TV was the basis and inspiration for Saturday Night Live. Many of the shows early stars transferred over. John Candy, Rick Moranis, Harold Ramis, Dave Thomas.
    It was widely shown in the US, though never made it over here. Mike Myers started on it too.

    Second City is Chicago, surely?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.


    Did Orphan Black not make it onto British TV?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "British jihadis should face new treason law, former Home Secretary, MI5 chief and Lord Chief Justice say"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/24/british-jihadis-should-face-new-treason-law-former-home-secretary/

    I view British jihadists the same way as British people who decide to import heroin to Indonesia or molest children in Vietnam. If the locals kill them, or deport them to countries that will kill them, well, they brought their fates on themselves.
    Ideally we should deceive them, say we're going to help them, then get them translocated to Iraq or somewhere equally savage, where they will be tried quickly, and shot.
    I just don't see what the issue is about the two held by the Kurds. They aren't our problem.
    Just strip them of citizenship, cancel their passports automatically, job done. Not our responsibility. They will end up stuck in Syria or Iraq or caught by the Americans and sent to Guantanamo. Oh dear. Such a shame.

    FFS they KNOWINGLY went to fight for actual Nazis who glorified in the cruelty of their murder. Who televised live burnings, and mass beheadings, and the stoning-to-death of women, and who laughed as they sexually enslaved Yazidi girls of 9 or 11. They BOASTED of their horrors.

    They are the worst of the worst. They do not deserve to be considered human, let alone British subjects. Let us wash our hands and leave them to the brisk and brutal justice of their Muslim co-believers.
    They've had their citizenship stripped.

    I think the issue is possibly to do with the role of British intelligence in any future court case? i.e. would the UK's involvement lead to a likely death sentence, which the government is traditionally opposed to and won't usually get involved with if that might be the outcome.

    Personally, I don't see why they can't be tried in the Middle East. I'm pretty sure they must have transgressed some fairly serious local laws.

    However, given that that same intelligence could quite easily have led to their deaths in Syria or Iraq or whereever, I think those sort of arguments are splitting hairs.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,875
    MTimT said:

    dixiedean said:

    Canadian TV. Second City TV was the basis and inspiration for Saturday Night Live. Many of the shows early stars transferred over. John Candy, Rick Moranis, Harold Ramis, Dave Thomas.
    It was widely shown in the US, though never made it over here. Mike Myers started on it too.

    Second City is Chicago, surely?
    Toronto. Was picked up by NBC, and made less obviously "Canadian". Martin Short was another SCTVer.
    John Belushi came from Second City comedy club in Chicago. As did Dan Akroyd.
    Not sure if the same name is coincidental or an homage.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,875
    williamglenn said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
    Canadian PM 57-63. Diefenbaker that is.
    His dog was Canadian PM?
    Would have probably fulfilled the role as effectively.
  • LordOfReasonLordOfReason Posts: 457
    On topic. The confidence motion threat was all piss and wind from the Brexiteers

    Mike. Do you really believe that sentence, or are you just playing a willywonka game with us? In case it’s the former let me quietly explain what is really going on.

    Politics is the art of the possible. You don’t publicly say what you think till the win is in the bag, or else you are merely making enemies, stirring trouble for yourself. Do You really think it’s just piss and wind in private? Or in private those who can make a difference being sounded out and brought on board? This is how it goes. Gently, discreetly enough, until...

    In recent weeks the game has moved forward quite a lot you agree? The game has changed? This is how it’s changed, and the reason the dead woman is still walking: When Brexit turns out unsatisfying or outright disaster, or any of fifty shades in between, it’s not the fault of everyday remain voters, they are completely off the hook. It can no longer be the fault of Cameron, Osborne, Major, Clegg, Brown or Blair. Quite wonderfully, It can no longer be the fault of vote-leave, the people’s liberation front of leave, or any leave voters. Chequers is not the British proposal, it’s the May governments proposal. As each day passes, the ink on the blueprint dries, voters get a clearer picture in their heads, you will see the expression on the publics face change. Because The game has changed, now everyone can and will blame everything wholly and exactly on May and her cabinet, their partisan agreement between themselves and their own weird, woolly and wonderful definition of what Brexit means
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Oslo forecast to be 34 degrees on Friday.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/0/3143244
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,317
    LordOfReason said:


    Politics is the art of the possible. You don’t publicly say what you think till the win is in the bag...

    ...the dead woman is still walking:

    May is still in the game, and she hasn't yet played out her hand.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,367
    williamglenn said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
    Canadian PM 57-63. Diefenbaker that is.
    His dog was Canadian PM?
    Actually it was a deaf wolf!
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,816
    FPT on Type 31e... This is classic MoD bait and switch.

    The RN actual gave up 2 x T45 (hulls #7 and #8) so that they could have 18 x FSC (as T26 was known at the time) comprising 10 x ASW and 8 x General Purpose. As the program progressed this was reduced by the tories to 13 x T26 (8 x ASW, 5 x GP) to 8 x T26 and 5 x T31 (ebay version of T26). Now T31 has been "suspended" (ie cancelled) we're left with the 8 x T26. Even if the RN get all 8, which is doubtful, that will leave the RN with an escort fleet of 14 ships!

    But remember you can't trust Labour on defence...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,826
    AndyJS said:

    "British jihadis should face new treason law, former Home Secretary, MI5 chief and Lord Chief Justice say"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/24/british-jihadis-should-face-new-treason-law-former-home-secretary/

    OT, but I wonder if Rudd will be back in Cabinet soon. I think she came out relatively unscathed from the official report into the issues surrounding her resignation (done in by civil service incompetence).
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,826
    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT on Type 31e... This is classic MoD bait and switch.

    The RN actual gave up 2 x T45 (hulls #7 and #8) so that they could have 18 x FSC (as T26 was known at the time) comprising 10 x ASW and 8 x General Purpose. As the program progressed this was reduced by the tories to 13 x T26 (8 x ASW, 5 x GP) to 8 x T26 and 5 x T31 (ebay version of T26). Now T31 has been "suspended" (ie cancelled) we're left with the 8 x T26. Even if the RN get all 8, which is doubtful, that will leave the RN with an escort fleet of 14 ships!

    But remember you can't trust Labour on defence...

    I'm sure Labour would have been 100% behind May's supposed plan to boost defence spending to 4% of GDP. :p
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,345
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
    (the "Diefenbaker" was a double pun...for reasons that don't need exploring at this juncture :) )

    Canadian television never really took off in the UK to the same extent as, say, Australian. However there were obscure bits like

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kids_in_the_Hall
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arrow
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_Girls

    ...and, of course...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Green_Gables
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,367
    viewcode said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
    (the "Diefenbaker" was a double pun...for reasons that don't need exploring at this juncture :) )

    Canadian television never really took off in the UK to the same extent as, say, Australian. However there were obscure bits like

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kids_in_the_Hall
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arrow
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_Girls

    ...and, of course...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Green_Gables
    The Littlest Hobo
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    MyBurningEars said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
    Canadian PM 57-63. Diefenbaker that is.
    I may be going mad, but I seem to recall that @TimB posted on here an extraordinary story about the time he bought a second-hand car not long after migrating to the New World.

    And the former owner of the car turned out to be a retired but very senior Canadian politician.

    Would appreciate it if someone can confirm whether or not the heat has completely addled me!!
    Yes that is the case. It was a Cadillac previously owned by the leader of the socialist party in Canada. I am amazed that you remember that!

    It had an 8.2 liter engine and went like a scalded dog.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,816
    Tim_B said:

    MyBurningEars said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
    Canadian PM 57-63. Diefenbaker that is.
    I may be going mad, but I seem to recall that @TimB posted on here an extraordinary story about the time he bought a second-hand car not long after migrating to the New World.

    And the former owner of the car turned out to be a retired but very senior Canadian politician.

    Would appreciate it if someone can confirm whether or not the heat has completely addled me!!
    Yes that is the case. It was a Cadillac previously owned by the leader of the socialist party in Canada. I am amazed that you remember that!

    It had an 8.2 liter engine and went like a scalded dog.
    Three legged dog, maybe! 500ci Caddy motors only make about 200hp when new...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/terror-police-boost-security-for-mp-sarah-champion-over-criticism-of-asian-sex-gangs-jz3ftp8b9
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    https://www.businessinsider.com/all-the-bad-news-theresa-may-government-tried-to-bury-take-out-trash-2018-7?r=UK&IR=T
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,787
    I see Mr Banks may be in a little more trouble:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44939665
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    And so are a couple of Scottish Tory MP's
    https://theferret.scot/call-for-westminster-probe-tory-mps-dark-money-donations/
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Dura_Ace said:

    Tim_B said:

    MyBurningEars said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Canadian TV drama on BBC4 called Cardinal. Don't remember a Canadian show being on British TV before.

    Due South was on BBC1 IIRC. It featured a Mounty and his dog, Diefenbaker.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South
    Canadian PM 57-63. Diefenbaker that is.
    I may be going mad, but I seem to recall that @TimB posted on here an extraordinary story about the time he bought a second-hand car not long after migrating to the New World.

    And the former owner of the car turned out to be a retired but very senior Canadian politician.

    Would appreciate it if someone can confirm whether or not the heat has completely addled me!!
    Yes that is the case. It was a Cadillac previously owned by the leader of the socialist party in Canada. I am amazed that you remember that!

    It had an 8.2 liter engine and went like a scalded dog.
    Three legged dog, maybe! 500ci Caddy motors only make about 200hp when new...
    This conversation reminds me of the LA Speed Check story. For those of you who have never heard it, well worth the five minutes:

    https://twistedsifter.com/videos/an-sr-71-blackbird-pilot-recounts-his-infamous-la-speed-check-story/
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,368
    JosiasJessop said:

    I see Mr Banks may be in a little more trouble:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44939665

    That story doesn't show what the BBC think it does. They think it looks bad for Banks - and, I admit, it's not good - but really it's much worse for the African politician on the take.

    That's how things work in Africa. It's why it's the way it is.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    That was one hot sticky night.
    Rain, a hearfelt message from us to you:
    We were wrong to be so unkind about you. We took you for granted. All we did was complain. But now we realise we can’t live without you. We are half of what we should be. Please come home.
    Love, the UK x
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,787
    SouthamObserver said:

    That was one hot sticky night.
    Rain, a hearfelt message from us to you:
    We were wrong to be so unkind about you. We took you for granted. All we did was complain. But now we realise we can’t live without you. We are half of what we should be. Please come home.
    Love, the UK x

    I did a walk in Northamptonshire on Sunday, and encountered some light drizzle as I climbed up to the top of Honey Hill. I stretched out my arms and let the drops hit my face.

    It was a marvellous 22 mile stroll on a very warm day (actually 24, because *ahem* I went wrong in a couple of places). But best of all was the drizzle - and it's not often I say that!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,136
    SouthamObserver said:

    That was one hot sticky night.
    Rain, a hearfelt message from us to you:
    We were wrong to be so unkind about you. We took you for granted. All we did was complain. But now we realise we can’t live without you. We are half of what we should be. Please come home.
    Love, the UK x

    Pfft. Every British tourist back from their two weeks in France or Spain wonders and wishes for a guaranteed hot summer like they have, where you get up and are pretty much guaranteed a hot sunny day. Now we have one, enjoy it. Next summer could be like 2012.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,719
    tlg86 said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    I see Mr Banks may be in a little more trouble:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44939665

    That story doesn't show what the BBC think it does. They think it looks bad for Banks - and, I admit, it's not good - but really it's much worse for the African politician on the take.

    That's how things work in Africa. It's why it's the way it is.
    Payments to Ministers to secure contracts are not just an African thing:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/mark-thatcher-accused-sources-say-he-got-12m-pounds-from-arms-deal-signed-by-his-mother-1441851.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,039
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Observer, I once visited a forest that was very warm, but where it constantly rained. It was the most peculiarly refreshing climate.

    Big thunderstorms could hit on Friday. One imagines the reservoirs will be partly refilled, and flash flooding abound.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,944
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Observer, I once visited a forest that was very warm, but where it constantly rained. It was the most peculiarly refreshing climate.

    Big thunderstorms could hit on Friday. One imagines the reservoirs will be partly refilled, and flash flooding abound.

    Mr D sincerely hope we dont get a thunderstorm on Friday. Or at least not until very late!. Big charity cricket match locally, with at least 40 local beers in the beer tent. Oh, and some major former players booked to play too!

    Oh, and good morning to you, too!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Who else is there? The alternatives are not obvious improvements.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Who else is there? The alternatives are not obvious improvements.

    Better question is, who else would want it now anyway ?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    JosiasJessop said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    That was one hot sticky night.
    Rain, a hearfelt message from us to you:
    We were wrong to be so unkind about you. We took you for granted. All we did was complain. But now we realise we can’t live without you. We are half of what we should be. Please come home.
    Love, the UK x

    I did a walk in Northamptonshire on Sunday, and encountered some light drizzle as I climbed up to the top of Honey Hill. I stretched out my arms and let the drops hit my face.

    It was a marvellous 22 mile stroll on a very warm day (actually 24, because *ahem* I went wrong in a couple of places). But best of all was the drizzle - and it's not often I say that!

    Back in May when Severn Trent reservoirs were at 96% capacity I foolishly said there would be no hosepipe ban this summer. Even then, I had a vaguely uneasy feeling that I could be inviting drought. Now I know. This is all my fault!!

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    asjohnstone said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Who else is there? The alternatives are not obvious improvements.

    Better question is, who else would want it now anyway ?
    All of them. Better to get the job when you can than wait for the perfect moment that might never come.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,721
    SouthamObserver said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    That was one hot sticky night.
    Rain, a hearfelt message from us to you:
    We were wrong to be so unkind about you. We took you for granted. All we did was complain. But now we realise we can’t live without you. We are half of what we should be. Please come home.
    Love, the UK x

    I did a walk in Northamptonshire on Sunday, and encountered some light drizzle as I climbed up to the top of Honey Hill. I stretched out my arms and let the drops hit my face.

    It was a marvellous 22 mile stroll on a very warm day (actually 24, because *ahem* I went wrong in a couple of places). But best of all was the drizzle - and it's not often I say that!

    Back in May when Severn Trent reservoirs were at 96% capacity I foolishly said there would be no hosepipe ban this summer. Even then, I had a vaguely uneasy feeling that I could be inviting drought. Now I know. This is all my fault!!

    So it's your fault my poor hydrangea is looking thirstier than SeanT after a month in a temperance hotel?

    I dunno, these new Labour types. Making promises and then instantly breaking them...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,787
    SouthamObserver said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    That was one hot sticky night.
    Rain, a hearfelt message from us to you:
    We were wrong to be so unkind about you. We took you for granted. All we did was complain. But now we realise we can’t live without you. We are half of what we should be. Please come home.
    Love, the UK x

    I did a walk in Northamptonshire on Sunday, and encountered some light drizzle as I climbed up to the top of Honey Hill. I stretched out my arms and let the drops hit my face.

    It was a marvellous 22 mile stroll on a very warm day (actually 24, because *ahem* I went wrong in a couple of places). But best of all was the drizzle - and it's not often I say that!

    Back in May when Severn Trent reservoirs were at 96% capacity I foolishly said there would be no hosepipe ban this summer. Even then, I had a vaguely uneasy feeling that I could be inviting drought. Now I know. This is all my fault!!
    I have mentioned that prediction to you on a couple of occasions. ;)
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    asjohnstone said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Who else is there? The alternatives are not obvious improvements.

    Better question is, who else would want it now anyway ?
    Boris. Always.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,039
    King Cole, must've taken some foresight to pick the only day in two months when substantial rainfall is expected for a charity cricket match... hope you're spared the sogginess, for a while.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,136
    edited July 2018
    AlastairMeeks said:

    It will be raining soon enough and soon enough everyone will be complaining about the dismal weather. Enjoy the sun while you can.

    After a long hot summer the odds are certainly on a stormy autumn when we will all get drenched.

    Meanwhile the rain we should normally be getting appears to be in northern Spain and the south east Med
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,721
    JosiasJessop said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    That was one hot sticky night.
    Rain, a hearfelt message from us to you:
    We were wrong to be so unkind about you. We took you for granted. All we did was complain. But now we realise we can’t live without you. We are half of what we should be. Please come home.
    Love, the UK x

    I did a walk in Northamptonshire on Sunday, and encountered some light drizzle as I climbed up to the top of Honey Hill. I stretched out my arms and let the drops hit my face.

    It was a marvellous 22 mile stroll on a very warm day (actually 24, because *ahem* I went wrong in a couple of places). But best of all was the drizzle - and it's not often I say that!

    Back in May when Severn Trent reservoirs were at 96% capacity I foolishly said there would be no hosepipe ban this summer. Even then, I had a vaguely uneasy feeling that I could be inviting drought. Now I know. This is all my fault!!
    I have mentioned that prediction to you on a couple of occasions. ;)
    As recently as the start of June, reservoir levels under Severn Trent were at 91% of capacity. It should also be noted that they have only one major reservoir chain - the Derwent - below 60% at the moment. By contrast Thirlmere is down to 48% (I'm guessing those fires had something to do with that). Annoyingly I can't find the details for Blithefield, but the Clywedog reservoir (our other major source of water) is still at 85%.

    So it's not certain the Midlands will have a hosepipe ban, or even especially likely. A dry autumn and it might be a different story next year.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,136
    Polruan said:

    asjohnstone said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Who else is there? The alternatives are not obvious improvements.

    Better question is, who else would want it now anyway ?
    Boris. Always.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2018/jul/21/all-behind-you-boris-johnson-cartoon
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    This thread reminds me of Brown.. back in the day, everyone or pretty much everyone(including me) was predicting that Brown would be out, but it didn't happen. If it didn't happen to someone who really ought to have been summarily got rid of, its unlikely to happen to May, unless the Tories think they will lose the next election in which case she wall be booted. on this matter the Tories are ruthless. We are a long way from the next election IMHO>
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,944
    Morris_Dancer said:

    King Cole, must've taken some foresight to pick the only day in two months when substantial rainfall is expected for a charity cricket match... hope you're spared the sogginess, for a while.

    It’s been planned for a long while! Might, of course, have to hide in the beer tent. Ah, calamity!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,721
    OldKingCole said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    King Cole, must've taken some foresight to pick the only day in two months when substantial rainfall is expected for a charity cricket match... hope you're spared the sogginess, for a while.

    It’s been planned for a long while! Might, of course, have to hide in the beer tent. Ah, calamity!
    So at least if it's wet, you won't have to stay dry?

    (Hope it doesn't rain. In my experience the last few weeks every time they've forecast rain, sometimes even when it's put on the radar screen at the time it's happening, it's been dry.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,721
    Emotive language used in this report:

    Excluded pupils 'abandoned by schools' in England
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44941691

    I notice however that while full of concern for those who due to their own efforts get kicked out (belatedly, in my experience) they don't make any mention of the potential negative impact on other children of keeping them in school.
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