HYUFD said:

John_M said:

HYUFD said:

Recidivist said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

There's a curious phenomenon that the latest YouGov poll shows. Conservative voters are now more Remainy than they were in 2017, despite the party being indelibly associated with Brexit. If Conservative Leavers start to get cold feet, the last remaining domestic political barrier to a second referendum will fall away.

Though more Conservative voters back No Deal Brexit than Labour voters oppose No Deal Brexit and the main reason Tory voters are more Remain than 2017 is 10% of 2017 Tory voters have switched to UKIP

Perhaps remainers should fund UKIP to get it back on its feet so it can filter more loonies out of the Conservative Party.

And hand the next general election to Corbyn

I don't think there's anything the Tories can do to stay in power. I say that with some sadness - I've voted Tory almost all my life (bar '97), and I don't find anything much to love about this government.

Well Boris ties Corbyn with Yougov while May, Mogg, Javid, Gove and Hunt trail Corbyn so it looks like either Boris succeeds May or Corbyn becomes PM after the next general election

MikeSmithson said:

I've just heard that a very close friend of mine has died after committing suicide and I'm just totally devastated

MikeSmithson said:

I've just heard that a very close friend of mine has died after committing suicide and I'm just totally devastated

MikeSmithson said:

I've just heard that a very close friend of mine has died after committing suicide and I'm just totally devastated

MikeSmithson said:

I've just heard that a very close friend of mine has died after committing suicide and I'm just totally devastated

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

John_M said:

HYUFD said:

Recidivist said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

There's a curious phenomenon that the latest YouGov poll shows. Conservative voters are now more Remainy than they were in 2017, despite the party being indelibly associated with Brexit. If Conservative Leavers start to get cold feet, the last remaining domestic political barrier to a second referendum will fall away.

Though more Conservative voters back No Deal Brexit than Labour voters oppose No Deal Brexit and the main reason Tory voters are more Remain than 2017 is 10% of 2017 Tory voters have switched to UKIP

Perhaps remainers should fund UKIP to get it back on its feet so it can filter more loonies out of the Conservative Party.

And hand the next general election to Corbyn

I don't think there's anything the Tories can do to stay in power. I say that with some sadness - I've voted Tory almost all my life (bar '97), and I don't find anything much to love about this government.

Well Boris ties Corbyn with Yougov while May, Mogg, Javid, Gove and Hunt trail Corbyn so it looks like either Boris succeeds May or Corbyn becomes PM after the next general election

Because a single poll taken today is absolutely guaranteed to predict what will happen in several years' time.

MikeSmithson said:

I've just heard that a very close friend of mine has died after committing suicide and I'm just totally devastated

MikeSmithson said:

I've just heard that a very close friend of mine has died after committing suicide and I'm just totally devastated

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

John_M said:

HYUFD said:

Recidivist said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

There's a curious phenomenon that the latest YouGov poll shows. Conservative voters are now more Remainy than they were in 2017, despite the party being indelibly associated with Brexit. If Conservative Leavers start to get cold feet, the last remaining domestic political barrier to a second referendum will fall away.

Though more Conservative voters back No Deal Brexit than Labour voters oppose No Deal Brexit and the main reason Tory voters are more Remain than 2017 is 10% of 2017 Tory voters have switched to UKIP

Perhaps remainers should fund UKIP to get it back on its feet so it can filter more loonies out of the Conservative Party.

And hand the next general election to Corbyn

I don't think there's anything the Tories can do to stay in power. I say that with some sadness - I've voted Tory almost all my life (bar '97), and I don't find anything much to love about this government.

Well Boris ties Corbyn with Yougov while May, Mogg, Javid, Gove and Hunt trail Corbyn so it looks like either Boris succeeds May or Corbyn becomes PM after the next general election

Because a single poll taken today is absolutely guaranteed to predict what will happen in several years' time.

Hyufd has amazing knowledge of all things poliitics but his inability ever to challenge polls is his weakness

Why anyone is surprised TM is unpopular is a surprise in itelf. She is caught between Brexiteers and Remainers while she is attempting to negotiate a deal that protects business but ensures we leave

I do wonder if she manages a deal just how remainer and leave mps will be able to vote it down and plunge the Country into even deeper despair

I do think the Country should recognise that at least she is holding on in there when most would just pass the batton over to someone else, who would be in the exact same invidious position

ReggieCide said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

John_M said:

HYUFD said:

Recidivist said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

There's a curious phenomenon that the latest YouGov poll shows. Conservative voters are now more Remainy than they were in 2017, despite the party being indelibly associated with Brexit. If Conservative Leavers start to get cold feet, the last remaining domestic political barrier to a second referendum will fall away.

Though more Conservative voters back No Deal Brexit than Labour voters oppose No Deal Brexit and the main reason Tory voters are more Remain than 2017 is 10% of 2017 Tory voters have switched to UKIP

Perhaps remainers should fund UKIP to get it back on its feet so it can filter more loonies out of the Conservative Party.

And hand the next general election to Corbyn

I don't think there's anything the Tories can do to stay in power. I say that with some sadness - I've voted Tory almost all my life (bar '97), and I don't find anything much to love about this government.

Well Boris ties Corbyn with Yougov while May, Mogg, Javid, Gove and Hunt trail Corbyn so it looks like either Boris succeeds May or Corbyn becomes PM after the next general election

Because a single poll taken today is absolutely guaranteed to predict what will happen in several years' time.

Hyufd has amazing knowledge of all things poliitics but his inability ever to challenge polls is his weakness

Why anyone is surprised TM is unpopular is a surprise in itelf. She is caught between Brexiteers and Remainers while she is attempting to negotiate a deal that protects business but ensures we leave

I do wonder if she manages a deal just how remainer and leave mps will be able to vote it down and plunge the Country into even deeper despair

I do think the Country should recognise that at least she is holding on in there when most would just pass the batton over to someone else, who would be in the exact same invidious position

That sounds just a tad too sensible

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stereotomy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

John_M said:

HYUFD said:

Recidivist said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

There's a curious phenomenon that the latest YouGov poll shows. Conservative voters are now more Remainy than they were in 2017, despite the party being indelibly associated with Brexit. If Conservative Leavers start to get cold feet, the last remaining domestic political barrier to a second referendum will fall away.

Though more Conservative voters back No Deal Brexit than Labour voters oppose No Deal Brexit and the main reason Tory voters are more Remain than 2017 is 10% of 2017 Tory voters have switched to UKIP

Perhaps remainers should fund UKIP to get it back on its feet so it can filter more loonies out of the Conservative Party.

And hand the next general election to Corbyn

I don't think there's anything the Tories can do to stay in power. I say that with some sadness - I've voted Tory almost all my life (bar '97), and I don't find anything much to love about this government.

Well Boris ties Corbyn with Yougov while May, Mogg, Javid, Gove and Hunt trail Corbyn so it looks like either Boris succeeds May or Corbyn becomes PM after the next general election

Because a single poll taken today is absolutely guaranteed to predict what will happen in several years' time.

Hyufd has amazing knowledge of all things poliitics but his inability ever to challenge polls is his weakness

Why anyone is surprised TM is unpopular is a surprise in itelf. She is caught between Brexiteers and Remainers while she is attempting to negotiate a deal that protects business but ensures we leave

I do wonder if she manages a deal just how remainer and leave mps will be able to vote it down and plunge the Country into even deeper despair

I do think the Country should recognise that at least she is holding on in there when most would just pass the batton over to someone else, who would be in the exact same invidious position

I'm never quite sure why May's fans view her clinging desperately to power no matter the cost to party and country while the Brexit clock ticks away as something to be lauded

If there was an alternative I would be the first to call TM's time over but there is not, unless you have someone in mind

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stereotomy said:

I'm never quite sure why May's fans view her clinging desperately to power no matter the cost to party and country while the Brexit clock ticks away as something to be lauded

If there was an alternative I would be the first to call TM's time over but there is not, unless you have someone in mind

Stereotomy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stereotomy said:

I'm never quite sure why May's fans view her clinging desperately to power no matter the cost to party and country while the Brexit clock ticks away as something to be lauded

If there was an alternative I would be the first to call TM's time over but there is not, unless you have someone in mind

I'm getting to the point of thinking that just about anybody willing to pick a stance, stick to it, and tell their opponents to put up or shut up would be better. Even if we ended up with a hard brexiter, we'd at least have a No Deal with a couple of years of dedicated preparation, instead of the car-crash No Deal we seem to be headed for now.

Admittedly though I'm not completely sure that Theresa May's brand of fudge won't work out. If it does, then I'll take it all back. But I'm getting less and less optimistic by the day.

MikeSmithson said:

I've just heard that a very close friend of mine has died after committing suicide and I'm just totally devastated

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stereotomy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stereotomy said:

I'm never quite sure why May's fans view her clinging desperately to power no matter the cost to party and country while the Brexit clock ticks away as something to be lauded

If there was an alternative I would be the first to call TM's time over but there is not, unless you have someone in mind

I'm getting to the point of thinking that just about anybody willing to pick a stance, stick to it, and tell their opponents to put up or shut up would be better. Even if we ended up with a hard brexiter, we'd at least have a No Deal with a couple of years of dedicated preparation, instead of the car-crash No Deal we seem to be headed for now.

Admittedly though I'm not completely sure that Theresa May's brand of fudge won't work out. If it does, then I'll take it all back. But I'm getting less and less optimistic by the day.

I think most of us share your view in the last sentence but right now we need someone who is not a red rag to a bull to one side or the other. She has the hardest job I can ever remember a British PM to face since the last war

Foxy said:

MikeSmithson said:

I've just heard that a very close friend of mine has died after committing suicide and I'm just totally devastated

Sorry to read your news, sometimes we can not comprehend the internal turmoil of others.

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

NorthofStoke said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stereotomy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stereotomy said:

I'm never quite sure why May's fans view her clinging desperately to power no matter the cost to party and country while the Brexit clock ticks away as something to be lauded

If there was an alternative I would be the first to call TM's time over but there is not, unless you have someone in mind

I'm getting to the point of thinking that just about anybody willing to pick a stance, stick to it, and tell their opponents to put up or shut up would be better. Even if we ended up with a hard brexiter, we'd at least have a No Deal with a couple of years of dedicated preparation, instead of the car-crash No Deal we seem to be headed for now.

Admittedly though I'm not completely sure that Theresa May's brand of fudge won't work out. If it does, then I'll take it all back. But I'm getting less and less optimistic by the day.

I think most of us share your view in the last sentence but right now we need someone who is not a red rag to a bull to one side or the other. She has the hardest job I can ever remember a British PM to face since the last war

I'm with Big G on this. My take is that TM is proposing the only solution that is a genuine Brexit but which reduces dusruption to a minimum and maintains close links with the EU. I guess there is room for a few tweaks but the path is very narrow and she occupies it which is one reason her adversaries are being driven mad. Yes, the EU may refuse but they will then be the villains. May's replacement would then run a "khaki" election to some extent which might be effective. If Labour support maniacal Tory rebels and opportunist Nationalists to stop it then they will make a colossal error.

thecommissioner said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

The Irish are riding the wrong horse. That's why they are becoming increasingly shrill. Varadkar has realised it.

thecommissioner said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

Don't they have a veto within the EU?

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

kle4 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

This expectation of EU countries fighting their own corners has long been predicted. Either it won't happen, or it will not be so severe as to be significant.

williamglenn said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stereotomy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

John_M said:

HYUFD said:

Recidivist said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

There's a curious phenomenon that the latest YouGov poll shows. Conservative voters are now more Remainy than they were in 2017, despite the party being indelibly associated with Brexit. If Conservative Leavers start to get cold feet, the last remaining domestic political barrier to a second referendum will fall away.

Though more Conservative voters back No Deal Brexit than Labour voters oppose No Deal Brexit and the main reason Tory voters are more Remain than 2017 is 10% of 2017 Tory voters have switched to UKIP

Perhaps remainers should fund UKIP to get it back on its feet so it can filter more loonies out of the Conservative Party.

And hand the next general election to Corbyn

I don't think there's anything the Tories can do to ent.

Well Boris ties Corbyn with Yougov while May, Mogg, Javid, Gove and Hunt trail Corbyn so it al election

Because a single poll taken today is absolutely guaranteed to predict what will happen in several years' time.

Hyufd has amazing knowledge of all things poliitics but his inability ever to challenge polls is his weakness

Why anyone is surprised TM is unpopular is a surprise in itelf. She is caught between Brexiteers and Remainers while she is try into even deeper despair

I do think the Country should recognise that at least she is holding on in there when most would just pass the batton over to someone else, who would be in the exact same invidious position

I'm never quite sure why May's fans view

If there was an alternative I would be the first to call TM's time over but there is not, unless you have someone in mind

We could do a lot worse than May, and I can't think of anyone else with the bloody-mindedness to keep going through all this without making far worse mistakes.

John_M said:

Polruan said:

thecommissioner said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

Don't they have a veto within the EU?

Even if the requirement to maintain borders with third countries was a unanimity rather than QMV matter (not sure which) Ireland would only have the power to veto changes - I can't see how a veto could translate into an a unilateral opt-out from the current status quo.

Per Article 50; the final deal needs to be approved by the EP, then QMV rules apply to the subsequent European council vote.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

kle4 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

This expectation of EU countries fighting their own corners has long been predicted. Either it won't happen, or it will not be so severe as to be significant.

You cannot tell that at present. This could get very nasty within Europe itself

SeanT said:

thecommissioner said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

The Irish are riding the wrong horse. That's why they are becoming increasingly shrill. Varadkar has realised it.

However, if it came to it, I believe Ireland would just say No to a hard border, as would the UK. Neither side would erect any infrastructure. What would the EU do then? Pursue Ireland through the ECJ, forcing them to build a fence, risking renewed violence? Then the EU would get all the blame. Not gonna happen

An open border in Ireland would become one of those weird illegal anomalies everyone tolerates as the legal alternative is worse. There would be significant but random customs checks many miles away from the frontier.

Ishmael_Z said:

kle4 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

This expectation of EU countries fighting their own corners has long been predicted. Either it won't happen, or it will not be so severe as to be significant.

Which other eu country except ireland has a corner to fight?

SeanT said:

John_M said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

kle4 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

This expectation of EU countries fighting their own corners has long been predicted. Either it won't happen, or it will not be so severe as to be significant.

You cannot tell that at present. This could get very nasty within Europe itself

There are four or five countries that would be materially affected by a disorderly Brexit, and they're all relative minnows - Ireland being one of them. The rest couldn't give two hoots.

Holland is not a minnow, and they will suffer, considerably. And of course 3.5m Europeans in the UK.....

kle4 said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

Border in the bay of biscay? No. But while I've doubt most Irish anger will be reserved for us for provoking this situation, much like our own torturous desperations over Brexit ultimately whoevers fault it was is secondary to dealing with it, and Ireland looks like taking the biggest hit of any EU country. The EU woukd be wise to make sure the rest support Ireland a great deal.

TOPPING said:

kle4 said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

Border in the bay of biscay? No. But while I've doubt most Irish anger will be reserved for us for provoking this situation, much like our own torturous desperations over Brexit ultimately whoevers fault it was is secondary to dealing with it, and Ireland looks like taking the biggest hit of any EU country. The EU woukd be wise to make sure the rest support Ireland a great deal.

It's good cop bad cop.

If, say, Germany pushes for a border then the UK has no option but to agree to anything that means there won't be a border. It is exquisitely clever.

We, or at least the sensible PBers have noted how the EU, Ireland, and the UK all don't want a border so it was crazy and illogical that anyone was suggesting it.

Now someone is suggesting it. It is a bluff we can't call.

TOPPING said:

kle4 said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

Border in the bay of biscay? No. But while I've doubt most Irish anger will be reserved for us for provoking this situation, much like our own torturous desperations over Brexit ultimately whoevers fault it was is secondary to dealing with it, and Ireland looks like taking the biggest hit of any EU country. The EU woukd be wise to make sure the rest support Ireland a great deal.

It's good cop bad cop.

If, say, Germany pushes for a border then the UK has no option but to agree to anything that means there won't be a border. It is exquisitely clever.

We, or at least the sensible PBers have noted how the EU, Ireland, and the UK all don't want a border so it was crazy and illogical that anyone was suggesting it.

Now someone is suggesting it. And it is a bluff we can't call.

John_M said:

SeanT said:

John_M said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

kle4 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

This expectation of EU countries fighting their own corners has long been predicted. Either it won't happen, or it will not be so severe as to be significant.

You cannot tell that at present. This could get very nasty within Europe itself

There are four or five countries that would be materially affected by a disorderly Brexit, and they're all relative minnows - Ireland being one of them. The rest couldn't give two hoots.

Holland is not a minnow, and they will suffer, considerably. And of course 3.5m Europeans in the UK.....

Relative is as relative does. Holland gets 3.8% of the total under QMV. I'm prepared to upgrade them to 'Roach' or 'Miller's thumb' - no one can say I'm not a reasonable creature.

The latest IMF report on the EZ countries put the 12 year impact of a WTO Brexit at ~2% less growth than Bremain for the Dutch, and around 4% for the bogtrotters.

SeanT said:

Gardenwalker said:

SeanT said:

To brighten the sombre mood. True story:

https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/1021459607657623559

Way to go. Now everyone knows about it.

I didn't say where it WAS. Just "in the middle".

Mortimer said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

The UK will either have to have a hard border with Ireland, or to have open borders with other WTO countries.

Though in such a hostile, hard Brexit enviroment, erecting such a border will just be par for the course. One of many hosile acts in such a divorce.

I'm perfectly content that the UK can have soft customs arrangements on all its land borders.
...

...

Penny dropped?

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1021504237090557952

Mortimer said:

TOPPING said:

kle4 said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

Border in the bay of biscay? No. But while I've doubt most Irish anger will be reserved for us for provoking this situation, much like our own torturous desperations over Brexit ultimately whoevers fault it was is secondary to dealing with it, and Ireland looks like taking the biggest hit of any EU country. The EU woukd be wise to make sure the rest support Ireland a great deal.

It's good cop bad cop.

If, say, Germany pushes for a border then the UK has no option but to agree to anything that means there won't be a border. It is exquisitely clever.

We, or at least the sensible PBers have noted how the EU, Ireland, and the UK all don't want a border so it was crazy and illogical that anyone was suggesting it.

Now someone is suggesting it. It is a bluff we can't call.

Err. What?

If you know someone has a duff hand, you call it.

Foxy said:

Mortimer said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

The UK will either have to have a hard border with Ireland, or to have open borders with other WTO countries.

Though in such a hostile, hard Brexit enviroment, erecting such a border will just be par for the course. One of many hosile acts in such a divorce.

I'm perfectly content that the UK can have soft customs arrangements on all its land borders.
...

...

Penny dropped?

Take back control, by having zero control?

Good luck selling that on the doorsteps!

RobD said:

Foxy said:

Mortimer said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

The UK will either have to have a hard border with Ireland, or to have open borders with other WTO countries.

Though in such a hostile, hard Brexit enviroment, erecting such a border will just be par for the course. One of many hosile acts in such a divorce.

I'm perfectly content that the UK can have soft customs arrangements on all its land borders.
...

...

Penny dropped?

Take back control, by having zero control?

Good luck selling that on the doorsteps!

Do people really care that much about customs? I suspect not.

Mortimer said:

Foxy said:

Mortimer said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TGOHF said:

Merkel henchman tells Dublin to build aand maintain any hard border.

This sounds expensive for Dublin. Could there end up being a border across the Bay of Biscay instead ?

https://amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html?__twitter_impression=true

Joachim Pfeiffer – a key ally of Chancellor Merkel – painted a dire picture of the outcome.

Mr Pfeiffer said Ireland would “have a border like we have a border with Ukraine, or Belarus” as there would no longer be treaties in place with the UK that would ensure the rules and standards of the EU would be respected.

Mr Pfeiffer said it will be Ireland’s responsibility to erect and manage the Border on the EU side, and the UK’s task to manage the territory of Northern Ireland.

A lot more of this to come as EU Countries start fighting their own corners

The irony is that the UK will not erect a border but Ireland will be forced too

The UK will either have to have a hard border with Ireland, or to have open borders with other WTO countries.

Though in such a hostile, hard Brexit enviroment, erecting such a border will just be par for the course. One of many hosile acts in such a divorce.

I'm perfectly content that the UK can have soft customs arrangements on all its land borders.
...

...

Penny dropped?

Take back control, by having zero control?

Good luck selling that on the doorsteps!

Just think about it for a minute.

I canvass all the time. It would be very easy to sell a soft Irish border with:

- no FOM - with no benefits paid to EU citizens
- no ongoing payments to the EU
- control of all our laws and regulations

Literally no one has ever suggested that we should have a hard border in Ireland; we've had the CTA with them for decades...

Big_G_NorthWales said:

grabcocque said:

I'd have thought that, in exchange for suspending article 50, the EU27 will demand a price that consists of precisely one thing: a new general election.

They have no power to intervene in that way. It would makes things worse, much worse