politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » BoJo moves to joint next CON leader favourite with Moggsy foll
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » BoJo moves to joint next CON leader favourite with Moggsy following his resignation speech
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Top 5 runners near enough 9-1 the lot.0
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Phew I can start laying the favourite for the Tory leadership again.0
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Plus isn’t Boris in trouble for his Telegraph deal.
Seems like an obvious breach of the ministerial code.
Give him a suspension.0 -
I presume whoever's buying Boris and JRM have little to no idea how the Tory leadership election process works?0
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To be fair, Boris being a toxic twat hasn't harmed him until now.TheScreamingEagles said:Plus isn’t Boris in trouble for his Telegraph deal.
Seems like an obvious breach of the ministerial code.
Give him a suspension.0 -
Possibly and then we’ve got to sort out a dispute resolution mechanism.TOPPING said:
Plus I assume that EurAtom and Britatom would have a mutual recognition, joint standards, etc....TheScreamingEagles said:
But that costs money and paperwork, something you said would be reduced thanks to Brexit.MaxPB said:
Or, how about we replicate the functions of Euratom with Britatom. You know, actual exit planning.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because people could literally die if it isn’t sortedMaxPB said:
No, but it begs the question as to why we are bothering with that stuff.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have Japan signed up to things like Euroatom?Xenon said:The EU are signing a free trade deal with Japan, which amazingly doesn't involve freedom of movement or any of the other crap that they are insisting with us.
They hate us and want to destroy us.
It's going to be really painful to leave thanks to the EU acting like it is, but thankfully we'll be out and can rebuild on our own terms.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/health/brexit-cancer-deaths-more-patients-die-delays-euratom-leave-warning-a8070641.html?amp
Plus do we have the capability and resources to replicate Euratom. The experts have their doubts.
CJEU anyone?
If so we might as well stay in Euratom.0 -
Mr. Eagles, suspect most people would have no problem with ongoing membership of Euratom (although why it needs to have been swallowed by the empire-building EU is another matter).
The EU attempting to impose a customs barrier within the UK by embarking upon the regulatory annexation of Northern Ireland is another matter.0 -
If you want to be a member of a club you have to play by their rules.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, suspect most people would have no problem with ongoing membership of Euratom (although why it needs to have been swallowed by the empire-building EU is another matter).
The EU attempting to impose a customs barrier within the UK by embarking upon the regulatory annexation of Northern Ireland is another matter.0 -
Historical reasons. Euratom and the European Coal and Steel Community predate the foundation of the EEC, and were rolled into it largely out of convenience.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, suspect most people would have no problem with ongoing membership of Euratom (although why it needs to have been swallowed by the empire-building EU is another matter).
The EU attempting to impose a customs barrier within the UK by embarking upon the regulatory annexation of Northern Ireland is another matter.0 -
And all men. Surprising considering that the final two in the last contest were both women.Pulpstar said:Top 5 runners near enough 9-1 the lot.
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The merger treaty to consolidate the political institutions was in the 60s though.grabcocque said:
Historical reasons. Euratom and the European Coal and Steel Community predate the foundation of the EEC, and were rolled into it largely out of convenience.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, suspect most people would have no problem with ongoing membership of Euratom (although why it needs to have been swallowed by the empire-building EU is another matter).
The EU attempting to impose a customs barrier within the UK by embarking upon the regulatory annexation of Northern Ireland is another matter.0 -
I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.0
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If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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How can anyone remotely contemplate Boris or JRM as leaders of a country? Seriously.
One has just spent two years proving how he handles High Office and the other has never held any High Office. Both appear to be masters of vacuous promises with little substance behind them.
I cannot think of any better way of catapulting Corbyn into No 10 than electing either of those two buffoons to PM.
At the minute, the only MP who looks like she has both a spine and working brain is Soubry and she has zero chance (if she even wants to be PM).0 -
Anna Soubry next Tory leader nailed on.0
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Mr. Eagles, aren't the Swiss associate members of Euratom?
Also, you paint the EU in a very malevolent light.
Mr. Cocque, convenience for the EU, indeed. It remains damned silly.
Mr. Meeks, interesting to consider what will happen to UKIP in the future.
We could realistically (although odds against) see both major parties split, perhaps with both splitting groups forming a new pro-EU party (perhaps swallowing the Lib Dems). Turbulent times indeed.0 -
Joint favourite, but at 8/1. Those are extremely long odds for a Next Leader market favourite and (rightly) indicative that there's no stand-out candidate and a great deal of uncertainty.
FWIW, I think they're about right for Boris but a good deal too short for JRM.0 -
You might as well take the Tory party out the back and shoot it now if that's on the cards. I know we're doing it to ourselves anyway, but it would be the end of us if that horrible woman became our leader.grabcocque said:Anna Soubry next Tory leader nailed on.
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Switzerland is not a member of Euratom, it is an "associated state". Which is to say, it accepts the EU's jurisdiction over Euratom via its bilateral treaties.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, aren't the Swiss associate members of Euratom?
Also, you paint the EU in a very malevolent light.
Mr. Cocque, convenience for the EU, indeed. It remains damned silly.
Mr. Meeks, interesting to consider what will happen to UKIP in the future.
We could realistically (although odds against) see both major parties split, perhaps with both splitting groups forming a new pro-EU party (perhaps swallowing the Lib Dems). Turbulent times indeed.0 -
AlastairMeeks said:
I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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We might as well stay in Euratom anyway. If that means having to concede FoM for nuclear physicists, I think most of the population could live with that.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly and then we’ve got to sort out a dispute resolution mechanism.TOPPING said:
Plus I assume that EurAtom and Britatom would have a mutual recognition, joint standards, etc....TheScreamingEagles said:
But that costs money and paperwork, something you said would be reduced thanks to Brexit.MaxPB said:
Or, how about we replicate the functions of Euratom with Britatom. You know, actual exit planning.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because people could literally die if it isn’t sortedMaxPB said:
No, but it begs the question as to why we are bothering with that stuff.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have Japan signed up to things like Euroatom?Xenon said:The EU are signing a free trade deal with Japan, which amazingly doesn't involve freedom of movement or any of the other crap that they are insisting with us.
They hate us and want to destroy us.
It's going to be really painful to leave thanks to the EU acting like it is, but thankfully we'll be out and can rebuild on our own terms.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/health/brexit-cancer-deaths-more-patients-die-delays-euratom-leave-warning-a8070641.html?amp
Plus do we have the capability and resources to replicate Euratom. The experts have their doubts.
CJEU anyone?
If so we might as well stay in Euratom.0 -
I'm sure something along those lines has been said before....MaxPB said:
You might as well take the Tory party out the back and shoot it now if that's on the cards. I know we're doing it to ourselves anyway, but it would be the end of us if that horrible woman became our leader.grabcocque said:Anna Soubry next Tory leader nailed on.
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It was 'swallowed' as early as 1967, when the European Communities was formed, which merged (most of) the respective institutions of the EEC, ECSC and Euratom.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, suspect most people would have no problem with ongoing membership of Euratom (although why it needs to have been swallowed by the empire-building EU is another matter).
...0 -
I doubt we're going to be offered the choice of twat or papist twat. But honestly, given the events of the last two years, nothing surprises me any longer. May could be revealed as a Martian and I'd hardly raise an eyebrow.Beverley_C said:How can anyone remotely contemplate Boris or JRM as leaders of a country? Seriously.
One has just spent two years proving how he handles High Office and the other has never held any High Office. Both appear to be masters of vacuous promises with little substance behind them.
I cannot think of any better way of catapulting Corbyn into No 10 than electing either of those two buffoons to PM.
At the minute, the only MP who looks like she has both a spine and working brain is Soubry and she has zero chance (if she even wants to be PM).0 -
"Mrs May, leaving the EU without a deal could mean thousands of people dying unnecessarily of cancer"david_herdson said:
We might as well stay in Euratom anyway. If that means having to concede FoM for nuclear physicists, I think most of the population could live with that.
"BREXIT MEANS BREXIT"0 -
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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FPT
"Have not the EU said that they are willing to negotiate and sign a free trade deal ?
What we are asking for goes some way beyond that."
Mr B,
Are you suggesting that Japan have been offered non-tariff trade without the four freedoms, including freedom of movement?
If so, what's the problem? It's what we joined the single market for. BTW, Tony Benn was laughed at in 1975 for suggesting that the Europeans intended to incorporate us into a larger European bloc. If I remember correctly, the phrase was 'lefty loony'.
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Euratom and the EEC were created at the same time. The ECSC came first.grabcocque said:
Historical reasons. Euratom and the European Coal and Steel Community predate the foundation of the EEC, and were rolled into it largely out of convenience.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, suspect most people would have no problem with ongoing membership of Euratom (although why it needs to have been swallowed by the empire-building EU is another matter).
The EU attempting to impose a customs barrier within the UK by embarking upon the regulatory annexation of Northern Ireland is another matter.0 -
Mr. Herdson, I also condemned Augustus/Tiberius for the creation of the Praetorian Guard and the failure to establish a legitimate means of imperial succession.0
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I'm reasonably certain JRM doesn't want it.
His mystique comes from his "power behind the throne" schtick his followers carefully disseminate from within ERG towers.
It'd never survive a millisecond in contact with the coalface of British politics and JRM knows it.0 -
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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Well yes, quite. He made the PM shift her position on the withdrawal agreement via amendment whilst the pro EU rebels were defeated. Once he is PM the pro EU rebels numbers inside the Tories prepared to rebel swells and he knows it.grabcocque said:I'm reasonably certain JRM doesn't want it.
His mystique comes from his "power behind the throne" schtick his followers carefully disseminate from with ERG towers.
It'd never survive a millisecond in contact with the coalface of British politics and JRM knows it.0 -
The EU offered us CETA+ right off the bat, but May rejected it out of hand because of the Irish issue, economic uncertainty and the fact that she doesn't have the votes.CD13 said:FPT
"Have not the EU said that they are willing to negotiate and sign a free trade deal ?
What we are asking for goes some way beyond that."
If she went back to the EU now and said she'd changed her mind about CETA, she might find that the price has... changed.0 -
How do countries with considerably smaller economies than ours, like Australia for instance, cope without being members of Euratom?0
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Correcting Morris Dancer’s historical inaccuracies is a full time job.david_herdson said:
It was 'swallowed' as early as 1967, when the European Communities was formed, which merged (most of) the respective institutions of the EEC, ECSC and Euratom.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, suspect most people would have no problem with ongoing membership of Euratom (although why it needs to have been swallowed by the empire-building EU is another matter).
...0 -
The EU were also concerned about the Irish issue. Other than trying to annex NI they don't seem to have done squat to resolve it though.grabcocque said:
The EU offered us CETA+ right off the bat, but May rejected it out of hand because of the Irish issue, economic uncertainty and the fact that she doesn't have the votes.CD13 said:FPT
"Have not the EU said that they are willing to negotiate and sign a free trade deal ?
What we are asking for goes some way beyond that."
If she went back to the EU now and said she'd changed her mind about CETA, she might find that the price has... changed.0 -
Police believe they have identified the suspected perpetrators of the Novichok attack on a Russian ex-spy and his daughter in Salisbury in March, according to reports.
Several Russians were involved in the attempted murder of Sergei and Yulia Skripal, the Press Association say.
They have been identified through CCTV, cross-checked with border entry data.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44883803
Jezza and the cult will still be limbo dancing that it was rogue actors acting on their own, etc etc etc...0 -
Australia signed an agreement with Euratom in 1981.Philip_Thompson said:How do countries with considerably smaller economies than ours, like Australia for instance, cope without being members of Euratom?
http://dfat.gov.au/international-relations/security/non-proliferation-disarmament-arms-control/policies-agreements-treaties/nuclear-cooperation-agreements/Pages/australias-network-of-nuclear-cooperation-agreements.aspx0 -
They are members of the global body IAEA. The Nuclear Institute here in the UK recommended that we replace Euratom by becoming fully engaged in The IAEA, dispute resolution by the ICJ.Philip_Thompson said:How do countries with considerably smaller economies than ours, like Australia for instance, cope without being members of Euratom?
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Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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Yes his tweet yesterday calling Boris a statesman was indicative of him wanting/endorsing Boris as PM, rather than any kind of power play for himself.grabcocque said:I'm reasonably certain JRM doesn't want it.
His mystique comes from his "power behind the throne" schtick his followers carefully disseminate from within ERG towers.
It'd never survive a millisecond in contact with the coalface of British politics and JRM knows it.0 -
So what stops Britatom from doing the same?grabcocque said:
Australia signed an agreement with Euratom in 1981.Philip_Thompson said:How do countries with considerably smaller economies than ours, like Australia for instance, cope without being members of Euratom?
http://dfat.gov.au/international-relations/security/non-proliferation-disarmament-arms-control/policies-agreements-treaties/nuclear-cooperation-agreements/Pages/australias-network-of-nuclear-cooperation-agreements.aspx0 -
So we could sign a cooperation agreement from outside too?grabcocque said:
Australia signed an agreement with Euratom in 1981.Philip_Thompson said:How do countries with considerably smaller economies than ours, like Australia for instance, cope without being members of Euratom?
http://dfat.gov.au/international-relations/security/non-proliferation-disarmament-arms-control/policies-agreements-treaties/nuclear-cooperation-agreements/Pages/australias-network-of-nuclear-cooperation-agreements.aspx0 -
And another thing …
I think there's surprise about the oldies being so set on leaving. I'll give you a clue.
We voted IN on the basis we were dealing with a trade structure. We were lied to, and we still have functioning memories. As I've said before … 'Fool me once, more fool you - fool me twice, more fool me.'
Now, the explanation given is "We always intended to create a Euro country. If you'd read the small print is section 43 (a), you'd have realised that. It's not our fault you're all cretins and didn't listen carefully enough."
Just the response to produce the referendum result. And why it's not a good idea to try and sneak in a BINO.
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I am sure they are both trembling in their graves Mr DancerMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Herdson, I also condemned Augustus/Tiberius for the creation of the Praetorian Guard and the failure to establish a legitimate means of imperial succession.
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It's quite an extensive treaty. However, the practical issue is the import of medical radioisotopes. We make some domestically, but things like technetium and radon come from Johnny Foreigner. Distance and time do matter.Philip_Thompson said:How do countries with considerably smaller economies than ours, like Australia for instance, cope without being members of Euratom?
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Not disputing you're right but do you have a source for that? It's very interesting.MaxPB said:
Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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Lewis Hamilton extends his contract.0
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May rejected it because she wants the holy grail of cake picking. She wants UK regulatory agencies to be able to certify products as being compliant with EU regs so they can be sold in the EU27 plus EEA with no input from their country regulators and no border checks for single market regs.grabcocque said:
The EU offered us CETA+ right off the bat, but May rejected it out of hand because of the Irish issue, economic uncertainty and the fact that she doesn't have the votes.CD13 said:FPT
"Have not the EU said that they are willing to negotiate and sign a free trade deal ?
What we are asking for goes some way beyond that."
If she went back to the EU now and said she'd changed her mind about CETA, she might find that the price has... changed.
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The migration data from a few days ago. Non-EU migration up, EU migration down. Specifically EU migration was down heavily among those arriving without a job or those who arrived "looking for work". Non-EU migration tends to all be highly skilled as they need to satisfy visa requirements.Philip_Thompson said:
Not disputing you're right but do you have a source for that? It's very interesting.MaxPB said:
Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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On a point of order here, it's hardly in the smallprint.CD13 said:
Now, the explanation given is "We always intended to create a Euro country. If you'd read the small print is section 43 (a), you'd have realised that. It's not our fault you're all cretins and didn't listen carefully enough."
The preamble to the treaty of Rome says "Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe"
It's right there on the first damn page.
If y'all were too lazy to even read the title cover you deserve to be bamboozled.
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This is the party that gave us IDS - in opposition, admittedly, but anything is possible - though the Tories do have a wonderful lesson on the folly of ensuring “a range of views” are represented from Labour...Beverley_C said:How can anyone remotely contemplate Boris or JRM as leaders of a country? Seriously.
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If only you'd been watching Jean Monnet on Panorama in 1960... The rest of the thread below is interesting too.CD13 said:I think there's surprise about the oldies being so set on leaving. I'll give you a clue.
We voted IN on the basis we were dealing with a trade structure. We were lied to, and we still have functioning memories. As I've said before … 'Fool me once, more fool you - fool me twice, more fool me.'
https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/10195974773585264650 -
I also read that non-EU student numbers especially from Asia have increase by a lot. So much for Brexit is ruining the reputation of the UK around the world.MaxPB said:
The migration data from a few days ago. Non-EU migration up, EU migration down. Specifically EU migration was down heavily among those arriving without a job or those who arrived "looking for work". Non-EU migration tends to all be highly skilled as they need to satisfy visa requirements.Philip_Thompson said:
Not disputing you're right but do you have a source for that? It's very interesting.MaxPB said:
Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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You'll find that those of us who were minors in the 70s only had a chance to vote in 2016. Those fucking oldies in '75 didn't care about us yoofs.grabcocque said:
On a point of order here, it's hardly in the smallprint.CD13 said:
Now, the explanation given is "We always intended to create a Euro country. If you'd read the small print is section 43 (a), you'd have realised that. It's not our fault you're all cretins and didn't listen carefully enough."
The preamble to the treaty of Rome says "Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe"
It's right there on the first damn page.
If y'all were too lazy to even read the title cover you deserve to be bamboozled.0 -
I'm sure whoever we are purchasing them from will want to ensure they can continue getting those exports after we exit. There's no reason we can't act as any other importer does.John_M said:
It's quite an extensive treaty. However, the practical issue is the import of medical radioisotopes. We make some domestically, but things like technetium and radon come from Johnny Foreigner. Distance and time do matter.Philip_Thompson said:How do countries with considerably smaller economies than ours, like Australia for instance, cope without being members of Euratom?
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Well people did read it (and live it) over the last 40 years and unsurprisingly voted to leave. Only very few (even among remainers) want to sign up to the federal superstate. The likes of @williamglenn are in a small minority that are hugely over represented in the media and at Westminster.grabcocque said:
On a point of order here, it's hardly in the smallprint.CD13 said:
Now, the explanation given is "We always intended to create a Euro country. If you'd read the small print is section 43 (a), you'd have realised that. It's not our fault you're all cretins and didn't listen carefully enough."
The preamble to the treaty of Rome says "Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe"
It's right there on the first damn page.
If y'all were too lazy to even read the title cover you deserve to be bamboozled.0 -
Mr Grabcocque,
"If y'all were too lazy to even read the title cover you deserve to be bamboozled."
What proportion of the population read and digest International treaties? What proportion of MPs do? 99% of voters have a life.
But you make my point very well. Have you thought of standing as an MP? It would be fun on the doorstep.
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Mrs C, to be fair, it wasn't the worst thing Tiberius ever did...
Mr. Eagles, not a huge surprise, although I'll be interested to see how many years it's for.0 -
Until the end of the 2020 season.Morris_Dancer said:Mrs C, to be fair, it wasn't the worst thing Tiberius ever did...
Mr. Eagles, not a huge surprise, although I'll be interested to see how many years it's for.0 -
This of course is one reason why Dave's was such a good deal. An explicit opt-out of that Page 1 stunna. It in effect would have allowed us to deem anything "ever closer union" and then press the red buzzer.grabcocque said:
On a point of order here, it's hardly in the smallprint.CD13 said:
Now, the explanation given is "We always intended to create a Euro country. If you'd read the small print is section 43 (a), you'd have realised that. It's not our fault you're all cretins and didn't listen carefully enough."
The preamble to the treaty of Rome says "Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe"
It's right there on the first damn page.
If y'all were too lazy to even read the title cover you deserve to be bamboozled.
But don't get the Brex-o-loons started because he apparently achieved "nothing".0 -
The point stands though. UK politicians have lied for generations that the EU project was solely about trade and regulatory alignment.
Sooner or later that combined mass of falsehoods UK politicians have told about the European integration project were going to collapse under their unsustainable weight.
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All too true. It is an even sadder commentary that Corbyn may be the best of a terribly bad bunch.CarlottaVance said:
This is the party that gave us IDS - in opposition, admittedly, but anything is possible - though the Tories do have a wonderful lesson on the folly of ensuring “a range of views” are represented from Labour...Beverley_C said:How can anyone remotely contemplate Boris or JRM as leaders of a country? Seriously.
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Absolutely. The issue is that people like our very own williamglenn were in power and happy to try and use the ratchet and lock the UK into the EU in perpetuity. The leave vote is as much a fight back against unrestricted migration as it was a fight back at being blatantly lied to for 40 years about the nature of the EU.grabcocque said:The point stands though. UK politicians have lied for generations that the EU project was solely about trade and regulatory alignment.
Sooner or later that combined mass of falsehoods UK politicians have told about the European integration project were going to collapse under their unsustainable weight.0 -
Mr M,
"Those fucking oldies in '75 didn't care about us yoofs."
But we did care about being lied to. the fact that we believed what we were told makes us feel stupid, and that makes us angrier. This is what's called human nature.
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I think you're a bit harsh on both points.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Herdson, I also condemned Augustus/Tiberius for the creation of the Praetorian Guard and the failure to establish a legitimate means of imperial succession.
The Praetorians worked fine, as long as the system for choosing emperors was working. The problem with them becoming king-makers developed initially out of a necessity which developed into an art-form. However, their role in that respect was reactive - it was a consequence of the imperial throne becoming culturally open to just about any ambitious general, millionaire or politician, rather than being restricted to a narrow ruling dynasty (barring exceptional circumstances).
Fairer point on the succession but again, that was a consequence of culture - in this case, Rome's antipathy to kings (Octavian had, after all witnessed (first hand?) Julius Caesar's attempt to be symbolically crowned. As such, he always concealed his absolute power within the nominal framework of the Republic and eschewed royal titles (despite spawning the later titles of emperor, prince, tsar, kaisar, and Augustus). In truth, the new emperors were the new kings of Rome but Rome was unwilling to acknowledge them as such because it offended their sense of identity and the myth of the Republic. Octavian was wise enough to recognise that. Problem is, as you say, how do you resolve that dichotomy when the realities of necessity clash with the pretence of appearances? For all that, considering the chaos Augustus inherited and the two centuries of internal peace that by and large was his legacy, I think you're being a bit picky.0 -
Even your dim wit should be able to comprehend that given a choice between filling out the 25 page questionnaire that post-Brexit Britain will require of prospective EU immigrants or getting a job in Germany, Sweden or the Netherlands will be an easy choice for most of the brightest and best.MaxPB said:
Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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Cherry picking Mr Herdson?david_herdson said:
We might as well stay in Euratom anyway. If that means having to concede FoM for nuclear physicists, I think most of the population could live with that.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly and then we’ve got to sort out a dispute resolution mechanism.TOPPING said:
Plus I assume that EurAtom and Britatom would have a mutual recognition, joint standards, etc....TheScreamingEagles said:
But that costs money and paperwork, something you said would be reduced thanks to Brexit.MaxPB said:
Or, how about we replicate the functions of Euratom with Britatom. You know, actual exit planning.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because people could literally die if it isn’t sortedMaxPB said:
No, but it begs the question as to why we are bothering with that stuff.TheScreamingEagles said:
Have Japan signed up to things like Euroatom?Xenon said:The EU are signing a free trade deal with Japan, which amazingly doesn't involve freedom of movement or any of the other crap that they are insisting with us.
They hate us and want to destroy us.
It's going to be really painful to leave thanks to the EU acting like it is, but thankfully we'll be out and can rebuild on our own terms.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/health/brexit-cancer-deaths-more-patients-die-delays-euratom-leave-warning-a8070641.html?amp
Plus do we have the capability and resources to replicate Euratom. The experts have their doubts.
CJEU anyone?
If so we might as well stay in Euratom.0 -
Meanwhile, one immigrant’s WhatsApp messages to me yesterday:
I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:
Boris Johnson: It is not too late to save Brexit - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44871629
Should I find another nation?
Yes or no?
It's less than one year
Still have to know if I can stay here
How I can stay here
And if I want to leave if I can come back
It's revolting
And if I will be fully covered in terms of health care
Your country is becoming a joke not even the crappiest Italian government from the war would be able create such a massive uncertainty0 -
Liz KendallBeverley_C said:
All too true. It is an even sadder commentary that Corbyn may be the best of a terribly bad bunch.CarlottaVance said:
This is the party that gave us IDS - in opposition, admittedly, but anything is possible - though the Tories do have a wonderful lesson on the folly of ensuring “a range of views” are represented from Labour...Beverley_C said:How can anyone remotely contemplate Boris or JRM as leaders of a country? Seriously.
Neva4get
You are wiv da angles now0 -
And yet, all of those highly skilled non-EU migrants happily fill out those forms to get their tier 2 visas.AlastairMeeks said:
Even your dim wit should be able to comprehend that given a choice between filling out the 25 page questionnaire that post-Brexit Britain will require of prospective EU immigrants or getting a job in Germany, Sweden or the Netherlands will be an easy choice for most of the brightest and best.MaxPB said:
Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, innit? He achieved brexit.TOPPING said:
This of course is one reason why Dave's was such a good deal. An explicit opt-out of that Page 1 stunna. It in effect would have allowed us to deem anything "ever closer union" and then press the red buzzer.grabcocque said:
On a point of order here, it's hardly in the smallprint.CD13 said:
Now, the explanation given is "We always intended to create a Euro country. If you'd read the small print is section 43 (a), you'd have realised that. It's not our fault you're all cretins and didn't listen carefully enough."
The preamble to the treaty of Rome says "Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe"
It's right there on the first damn page.
If y'all were too lazy to even read the title cover you deserve to be bamboozled.
But don't get the Brex-o-loons started because he apparently achieved "nothing".0 -
Mr. Eagles, cheers. That's not a huge length of time.
Mr. Herdson, disagree. You might make that claim regarding Claudius but it was the Praetorians who proactively compelled Nerva to ditch his first choice and opt for Trajan as his new heir.
Basil II showed how a bodyguard could function with loyalty rather than self-interest when he created the Varangian Guard.
There was mostly peace for the first couple of centuries and then the Crisis of the Third Century occurred, fuelled in no small part to the donative (again dating back to the early emperors) and rule being based purely on military might.
It's a fair point you make on Roman allegedly antipathy to kings, but by this stage of republican corruption there were political dynasties aplenty.0 -
Brexiteers: always horny for ever more bureaucracy.MaxPB said:
And yet, all of those highly skilled non-EU migrants happily fill out those forms to get their tier 2 visas.0 -
a very volatile market where the recent lines are all over the place indicating some knowledge of psychosis,especially Tory psychosis is required.To make any sense of it ,long-term trends still provide a clue so always lay the 1st and 2nd favourite,preferably having backed them first.I think what is happening here is more short-term trading activity,I imagine,Back-to-lay bets proving the most profitable.
As a guide as to who will win the Tory leadership,I prefer the tea-leaves than this rather mad market.0 -
@MaxPB the man who believes that introducing an onerous new requirement will encourage immigrants.MaxPB said:
And yet, all of those highly skilled non-EU migrants happily fill out those forms to get their tier 2 visas.AlastairMeeks said:
Even your dim wit should be able to comprehend that given a choice between filling out the 25 page questionnaire that post-Brexit Britain will require of prospective EU immigrants or getting a job in Germany, Sweden or the Netherlands will be an easy choice for most of the brightest and best.MaxPB said:
Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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What other choice do they have ?MaxPB said:
And yet, all of those highly skilled non-EU migrants happily fill out those forms to get their tier 2 visas.AlastairMeeks said:
Even your dim wit should be able to comprehend that given a choice between filling out the 25 page questionnaire that post-Brexit Britain will require of prospective EU immigrants or getting a job in Germany, Sweden or the Netherlands will be an easy choice for most of the brightest and best.MaxPB said:
Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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Mr. Cocque, some just want to be tied up with red tape
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Shocked by this. I thought he’d have sent his in ages. Makes life awkward around the cabinet for Esther McVey. CarlottaVance said:0 -
Indeed.MaxPB said:
And yet, all of those highly skilled non-EU migrants happily fill out those forms to get their tier 2 visas.AlastairMeeks said:
Even your dim wit should be able to comprehend that given a choice between filling out the 25 page questionnaire that post-Brexit Britain will require of prospective EU immigrants or getting a job in Germany, Sweden or the Netherlands will be an easy choice for most of the brightest and best.MaxPB said:
Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
And ending the ability of large companies to source low wage labour from Europe might actually increase investment in innovation and technology.0 -
Mr Glenn,
"If only you'd been watching Jean Monnet on Panorama in 1960... The rest of the thread below is interesting too."
My bad. I've asked my social secretary to check my diary for then. We didn't have a television then, and neither did anyone else on our council estate. That explains everything. It's all my own fault that I believed a word those lying politicians told me.
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Harold Macmillan may have equivocated about political union in the 60s, but Ted Heath was very clear that the primary purpose of the Community was political, and he made the argument very openly in the major debates of the 1975 referendum campaign.CD13 said:Mr M,
"Those fucking oldies in '75 didn't care about us yoofs."
But we did care about being lied to. the fact that we believed what we were told makes us feel stupid, and that makes us angrier. This is what's called human nature.
In any case, to the extent that the phenomenon you describe is true, how do you think people in 10 years time will think about Brexit if it goes ahead? They will think they were lied to about the sunlit uplands, lied to about control, lied to about Turkey, etc. Based on your logic Brexit is doomed in the long term, even if you somehow keep it alive for another 8 months.0 -
It's the first clause of the first sentence:grabcocque said:
On a point of order here, it's hardly in the smallprint.CD13 said:
Now, the explanation given is "We always intended to create a Euro country. If you'd read the small print is section 43 (a), you'd have realised that. It's not our fault you're all cretins and didn't listen carefully enough."
The preamble to the treaty of Rome says "Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe"
It's right there on the first damn page.
If y'all were too lazy to even read the title cover you deserve to be bamboozled.
https://ec.europa.eu/romania/sites/romania/files/tratatul_de_la_roma.pdf0 -
Time to laminate all that paperwork.grabcocque said:
Brexiteers: always horny for ever more bureaucracy.MaxPB said:
And yet, all of those highly skilled non-EU migrants happily fill out those forms to get their tier 2 visas.
I guess laminate is a bit like PVC, really easy to clean up.0 -
In my opinion, a hard Brexit or remaining in the EU are the two choices on the table. Chequers and its derivatives are all dead in the water.
It's obvious what the sane choice is!
Brexit=a calamity!
Brexiteers = xenophobes/little Englanders/thickos (delete as appropriate).0 -
Where did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth. I specifically said "new rules". Nothing was said about existing rules, though I would be surprised if it made a dent to highly skilled migration if the existing rules were applied across the board. It would, however, discourage unskilled or low skilled migration as well as those arriving without a job.AlastairMeeks said:
@MaxPB the man who believes that introducing an onerous new requirement will encourage immigrants.MaxPB said:
And yet, all of those highly skilled non-EU migrants happily fill out those forms to get their tier 2 visas.AlastairMeeks said:
Even your dim wit should be able to comprehend that given a choice between filling out the 25 page questionnaire that post-Brexit Britain will require of prospective EU immigrants or getting a job in Germany, Sweden or the Netherlands will be an easy choice for most of the brightest and best.MaxPB said:
Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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Well, in @AlastairMeeks' world, not bothering. Yet somehow they still do.surby said:
What other choice do they have ?MaxPB said:
And yet, all of those highly skilled non-EU migrants happily fill out those forms to get their tier 2 visas.AlastairMeeks said:
Even your dim wit should be able to comprehend that given a choice between filling out the 25 page questionnaire that post-Brexit Britain will require of prospective EU immigrants or getting a job in Germany, Sweden or the Netherlands will be an easy choice for most of the brightest and best.MaxPB said:
Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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I think that this was translated by the same people who did the govt's position paper for the EUgrabcocque said:
Liz KendallBeverley_C said:
All too true. It is an even sadder commentary that Corbyn may be the best of a terribly bad bunch.CarlottaVance said:
This is the party that gave us IDS - in opposition, admittedly, but anything is possible - though the Tories do have a wonderful lesson on the folly of ensuring “a range of views” are represented from Labour...Beverley_C said:How can anyone remotely contemplate Boris or JRM as leaders of a country? Seriously.
Neva4get
You are wiv da angles now0 -
Davies really is an odious piece of work.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Play the ball sir, not the man.murali_s said:In my opinion, a hard Brexit or remaining in the EU are the two choices on the table. Chequers and its derivatives are all dead in the water.
It's obvious what the sane choice is!
Brexit=a calamity!
Brexiteers = xenophobes/little Englanders/thickos (delete as appropriate).0 -
New rules that are far more onerous than existing rules for a huge chunk of current immigrants. But you seem to think it will encourage them.MaxPB said:
Where did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth. I specifically said "new rules". Nothing was said about existing rules, though I would be surprised if it made a dent to highly skilled migration if the existing rules were applied across the board. It would, however, discourage unskilled or low skilled migration as well as those arriving without a job.AlastairMeeks said:
@MaxPB the man who believes that introducing an onerous new requirement will encourage immigrants.MaxPB said:
And yet, all of those highly skilled non-EU migrants happily fill out those forms to get their tier 2 visas.AlastairMeeks said:
Even your dim wit should be able to comprehend that given a choice between filling out the 25 page questionnaire that post-Brexit Britain will require of prospective EU immigrants or getting a job in Germany, Sweden or the Netherlands will be an easy choice for most of the brightest and best.MaxPB said:
Even in the middle of this non-EU immigration of highly skilled workers is rising and unskilled immigration from the EU is falling. The facts go against your prejudices.AlastairMeeks said:
After Brexit the highly mobile and highly skilled are going to be leaving Britain for countries that don’t put mindless barriers in their way. The immigrants will be at the other end of the scale. That will of course be good for UKIP.MaxPB said:
I wouldn't be so sure, cockroaches can survive pretty much anything. There will still be room for a party that opposes any and all migration. I expect after Brexit migration will go up as the new rules will encourage the highly mobile and highly skilled to relocate to the UK.currystar said:
If No Deal happens then surely UKIP is finished as there will be no point to themAlastairMeeks said:I’d have thought both would have been more likely to be next UKIP leader than next Conservative leader.
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I have no idea what they hope to achieveAnazina said:
Davies really is an odious piece of work.CarlottaVance said:0 -
I think it will be Philip Davies.grabcocque said:Anna Soubry next Tory leader nailed on.
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@Beverley_C
In light of our conversation on the last thread, you might find this of interest:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/eu-emergency-talks-brexit-berlin
Or this:
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/27/uk-trigger-article-50-immediately/
May did attempt to set out a position prior to this, but was then told it was unacceptable as the EU would only accept something else. They have not budged from that position even to the extent of endorsing policies pioneered by the apartheid regime in South Africa.
They are of course within their rights to do this. They may even believe they are serving the interests of the EU by doing so (I think they're wrong, as I've made clear, but that wouldn't be surprising given the dogmatic and less than intelligent people involved).
However, they have by doing this wrecked any chance of nudging us into EEA - which I and I think most remainers could live with - and given the Brexiteers political cover for their failure, as well as making it almost inconceivable we will ever rejoin the EU. They have behaved arrogantly, complacently and with a total lack of responsibility and deserve all the opprobrium they will get if the consequences for the EU are as negative as I fear.0 -
One needs to be careful what one wishes for.murali_s said:In my opinion, a hard Brexit or remaining in the EU are the two choices on the table. Chequers and its derivatives are all dead in the water.
It's obvious what the sane choice is!
Brexit=a calamity!
Brexiteers = xenophobes/little Englanders/thickos (delete as appropriate).
Assume that the Commons decide to revoke A.50 and the EU agrees. The next election for the EU Parliament would see UKIP win c.40% or so. Added to the Sweden Democrats, Law & Justice, Lega, FN, AFD, Fidesz, FPO, that's a great many troublemakers.0 -
There were dissenting voices in 1975 who actually told the truth. A rag-taggle bunch of eccentrics widely disparaged by the media (what we now call the Establishment Elite).
Ted Heath was too enthusiastic about the EEC to lie - "yesterday's man", and so on.
Disowned then by the same people who now wear their superiority like a garland of honour, and who are wrong again.0 -
Mr. F, bigger question is how would UKIP do at a General Election after a revocation of Article 50?0
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The next referendum will be unlike 2016 and 1975.CD13 said:There were dissenting voices in 1975 who actually told the truth. A rag-taggle bunch of eccentrics widely disparaged by the media (what we now call the Establishment Elite).
Ted Heath was too enthusiastic about the EEC to lie - "yesterday's man", and so on.
Disowned then by the same people who now wear their superiority like a garland of honour, and who are wrong again.
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Not really, how many MPs did they get when they were on 13%?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, bigger question is how would UKIP do at a General Election after a revocation of Article 50?
0
