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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » BoJo moves to joint next CON leader favourite with Moggsy foll

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,701
    So anyone else taking tomorrow off from work to they can see Mamma Mia 2 a few times at the cinema or is it just me?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903
    Scott_P said:
    True story: one of my classmates at school came up with the excuse "My mum curried [my homework]!" :lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903



    Why would Wensleydale be subject to import tariffs?

    Hard border with the Democratic People's Republic of Yorkshire.
    That's to keep out the Lancastrians and the Southern softies.
    Only a Northern Softy like TSE would complain about the lack of First Class on trains between Manchester and Sheffield :lol:
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Cyclefree said:

    How Boris can be favourite for anything other than the role of court jester beats me.

    If he and JRM are the favourites, all this shows is that the Tories have given up on being a serious grown up political party.

    Or that punters have got it wrong.
    Boris may be a juvenile game player of the first water but I believe JRM is deadly serious.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Sometimes betting odds are about as crazy as the idea of Boris as PM.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John_M said:
    I’m the waiter not the chef. I’m not stockpiling Stilton just yet.

    Still, it’s good to know that the extent of Leaver ambition has shrunk to keeping the supermarket shelves stocked with milk.
    It sounds like an exaggeration to me. My milk is delivered by an old-fashioned milkman. Pretty sure he's not getting his milk from abroad. English butter is plentiful and lots of good English cheeses around. And yogurt is easy to make.

    If we get to the stage that there are shortages of food, people unable to leave or enter Britain, no medicines, the lights going off etc, it will be a colossal - and incredibly stupid - failure by both the British government and the EU.

    So this seems a bit of a red herring to me.
    The most bizarre part of Varadkar’s ludicrous comments yesterday was his linking fishing rights to overflight rights..
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,903

    Sometimes betting odds are about as crazy as the idea of Boris as PM.

    Trump as POTUS? :open_mouth:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,222

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John_M said:
    I’m the waiter not the chef. I’m not stockpiling Stilton just yet.

    Still, it’s good to know that the extent of Leaver ambition has shrunk to keeping the supermarket shelves stocked with milk.
    It sounds like an exaggeration to me. My milk is delivered by an old-fashioned milkman. Pretty sure he's not getting his milk from abroad. English butter is plentiful and lots of good English cheeses around. And yogurt is easy to make.

    If we get to the stage that there are shortages of food, people unable to leave or enter Britain, no medicines, the lights going off etc, it will be a colossal - and incredibly stupid - failure by both the British government and the EU.

    So this seems a bit of a red herring to me.
    The most bizarre part of Varadkar’s ludicrous comments yesterday was his linking fishing rights to overflight rights..
    Wouldn't that create a 'hard border' between Belfast and the Algarve ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,222
    Good to see Trump back on good form on twitter.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,222
    Kruiswijk going for immortality here !
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John_M said:
    I’m the waiter not the chef. I’m not stockpiling Stilton just yet.

    Still, it’s good to know that the extent of Leaver ambition has shrunk to keeping the supermarket shelves stocked with milk.
    It sounds like an exaggeration to me. My milk is delivered by an old-fashioned milkman. Pretty sure he's not getting his milk from abroad. English butter is plentiful and lots of good English cheeses around. And yogurt is easy to make.

    If we get to the stage that there are shortages of food, people unable to leave or enter Britain, no medicines, the lights going off etc, it will be a colossal - and incredibly stupid - failure by both the British government and the EU.

    So this seems a bit of a red herring to me.
    The most bizarre part of Varadkar’s ludicrous comments yesterday was his linking fishing rights to overflight rights..
    Wouldn't that create a 'hard border' between Belfast and the Algarve ?
    Let alone Dublin and anywhere to its east....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,701
    edited July 2018

    kjh said:

    Nigelb said:

    kjh said:

    IanB2 said:



    Mogg and Johnson are both great lays.

    It is a good job this is a betting site as otherwise I'm not sure if they should be flattered or sue.
    As an expression of taste, it's surely rather niche ?
    That thought crossed my mind.
    JRM may not be a great lay, but with six kids we can assume he's a fairly consistent one.

    OwO
    We can also infer from that were Jacob Rees-Mogg to stand in the next Tory leadership contest he won't pull out, unlike Boris and Andrea Leadsom.

    Mind bleach is available that way --------->
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    So anyone else taking tomorrow off from work to they can see Mamma Mia 2 a few times at the cinema or is it just me?

    Dancing queen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,442

    So anyone else taking tomorrow off from work to they can see Mamma Mia 2 a few times at the cinema or is it just me?

    Just you. The rest of us are doing important things.

    Sod it, Roderick's played all round one.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    John_M said:
    Please Miss! He started it Miss!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,701
    ydoethur said:

    So anyone else taking tomorrow off from work to they can see Mamma Mia 2 a few times at the cinema or is it just me?

    Just you. The rest of us are doing important things.

    Sod it, Roderick's played all round one.
    In the evening I'll be attending the Roses t20 match.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:
    I’m the waiter not the chef. I’m not stockpiling Stilton just yet.

    Still, it’s good to know that the extent of Leaver ambition has shrunk to keeping the supermarket shelves stocked with milk.
    Surely the amount of Stilton, like Cheddar Cheese that we import is precisely 0 grams?
    No - we import a lot of Cheddar from Ireland.

    Edit - this paper from 2 years ago sets it out for those interested:

    https://ahdb.org.uk/brexit/documents/Dairy_bitesize.pdf
    If the EU can have Irish cheddar then we can have English brie - once out of the EU.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    Cyclefree said:

    John_M said:
    I’m the waiter not the chef. I’m not stockpiling Stilton just yet.

    Still, it’s good to know that the extent of Leaver ambition has shrunk to keeping the supermarket shelves stocked with milk.
    It sounds like an exaggeration to me. My milk is delivered by an old-fashioned milkman. Pretty sure he's not getting his milk from abroad. English butter is plentiful and lots of good English cheeses around. And yogurt is easy to make.

    If we get to the stage that there are shortages of food, people unable to leave or enter Britain, no medicines, the lights going off etc, it will be a colossal - and incredibly stupid - failure by both the British government and the EU.

    Those who have a bit of road-kill to add to their grass soup after 29th March will be the lucky ones.

    We'll envy the people in Threads.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,442

    ydoethur said:

    So anyone else taking tomorrow off from work to they can see Mamma Mia 2 a few times at the cinema or is it just me?

    Just you. The rest of us are doing important things.

    Sod it, Roderick's played all round one.
    In the evening I'll be attending the Roses t20 match.
    Then all is forgiven. Still can't compare with Cheltenham College on a balmy afternoon, as long as we don't lose 7-11 off five overs again.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited July 2018


    Or that punters have got it wrong.

    With JRM a lot seems to be around name recognition, courtesy of social media wank.

    The guy has never been a minister, has no relevant experience, is easy for an opposition to stereotype (out of touch, inherited money, offshore tax havens etc) and frankly ..... is a complete weirdo. He feeds Corbyn's strengths.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    brendan16 said:

    John_M said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects

    Poland, Kantar poll:

    When should Poland join the Eurozone?

    Never: 53%
    In next 5 years: 21%
    In next 6-10 years: 13%
    In more than 10 years: 13%

    Field work: 06/07/18-7/07/18
    Sample size: 1,000"

    Poland another nation that will not be part of the Eurozone and a full Federal EU
    Poland's accession treaty requires it to join the Eurozone. The EU is a rules based organisation, as many tell us. Only Denmark (and the erstwhile UK before it became a deserted wasteland) has/had an opt out.
    Sweden is also supposed to join the Eurozone - it was an EU member for six years before the Euro was introduced and 18 years since the Euro began it still hasn't joined. If they don't enforce this requirement on Sweden why would they do so on Poland?

    The EU picks and chooses what obligations it follows - and I expect the ECB has enough problems with managing existing members like Italy and Greece without forcing others to join.
    The Euro joining rule is vague enough that the conditions are effectively decided by the nation concerned, with no serious attempt at enforcement.

    The rise of Nationalist Populist parties in the EU is not being driven by anti EU sentiment, which is quite modest by UK standards, but rather by non EU migration and asylum seekers. Indeed in this Tpmmy Robinsons mob has a lot in common with them, being centered on anti Muslim sentiment rather than anything EU related.
    It's EU related in a sense because official EU policy is for each country to have a quota of migrants which is must take in and has previously threatened (though stepped back from, thankfully) punishment beatings and withdrawal of EU funding from those countries who won't accept any migrants.
    I thought that the current rules, the "Dublin Convention", was that asylum seekers should register in the first EU country they reach.

    The controversy is that this is unpopular in Italy and Greece who have pushed for burden-sharing, which is being fiercely resisted by some EU countries, most notably Hungary (I don't know the exact line-up on each side).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,757
    edited July 2018

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:
    I’m the waiter not the chef. I’m not stockpiling Stilton just yet.

    Still, it’s good to know that the extent of Leaver ambition has shrunk to keeping the supermarket shelves stocked with milk.
    Surely the amount of Stilton, like Cheddar Cheese that we import is precisely 0 grams?
    No - we import a lot of Cheddar from Ireland.

    Edit - this paper from 2 years ago sets it out for those interested:

    https://ahdb.org.uk/brexit/documents/Dairy_bitesize.pdf
    If the EU can have Irish cheddar then we can have English brie - once out of the EU.
    Sainsburys already sells Somerset Brie, so it is safe to Remain :)

    Stilton has to be made in the East Midlands as it is a protected designation, unlike Brie or Cheddar.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Sterling fallen again today against the dollar - now
    $1.2989

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,003
    So with these new visa requirements (or not) for EU nationals, who would like to bet me £100 that we won't see a Windrush-type scandal in years to come with people being deported who are entitled to stay here?
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    The Lib Dems are so over that whole EU thing, pace Vince and Tim finding better ways to spend their time than tedious voting over the future of the country.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    TGOHF said:
    On the basis of US retaliation against a German computer software company, SAP.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751

    Cyclefree said:

    How Boris can be favourite for anything other than the role of court jester beats me.

    If he and JRM are the favourites, all this shows is that the Tories have given up on being a serious grown up political party.

    Or that punters have got it wrong.
    Boris may be a juvenile game player of the first water but I believe JRM is deadly serious.
    Boris is serious in going for the leadership (at least, until it looks like he might have to do it); I've not seen any evidence that JRM is. On the other hand, Mogg is serious in his values and policy solutions.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,629
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John_M said:
    I’m the waiter not the chef. I’m not stockpiling Stilton just yet.

    Still, it’s good to know that the extent of Leaver ambition has shrunk to keeping the supermarket shelves stocked with milk.
    It sounds like an exaggeration to me. My milk is delivered by an old-fashioned milkman. Pretty sure he's not getting his milk from abroad. English butter is plentiful and lots of good English cheeses around. And yogurt is easy to make.

    If we get to the stage that there are shortages of food, people unable to leave or enter Britain, no medicines, the lights going off etc, it will be a colossal - and incredibly stupid - failure by both the British government and the EU.

    Those who have a bit of road-kill to add to their grass soup after 29th March will be the lucky ones.

    We'll envy the people in Threads.
    Short term, we can feed off Julian Smith toast.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,442
    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    If you turn up to work while on maternity leave, you can forfeit your right to maternity leave.

    I can see why she would do one in a private capacity, and not the other and risk getting into a tangle.

    That said I don't know if MPs have official maternity leave, given they don't have to turn up anyway (cf Jared O'Mara).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    TGOHF said:
    Maybe he'll be lobbing nukes at Europe.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,869
    TOPPING said:

    So with these new visa requirements (or not) for EU nationals, who would like to bet me £100 that we won't see a Windrush-type scandal in years to come with people being deported who are entitled to stay here?

    Why would anyone ever want to bet in favour of the competence of the home office?!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:
    On the basis of US retaliation against a German computer software company, SAP.
    Problem for SAP is there aren't many global EU tech enterprises.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,442
    Bugger, we've lost Van Buuren. Dreamy on drive followed by a thick edge.

    Sussex go favourites.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,757
    edited July 2018
    ydoethur said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    If you turn up to work while on maternity leave, you can forfeit your right to maternity leave.

    I can see why she would do one in a private capacity, and not the other and risk getting into a tangle.

    That said I don't know if MPs have official maternity leave, given they don't have to turn up anyway (cf Jared O'Mara).
    Not true. Maternity leave provision does allow for occasional contact days in order to keep in touch. This is very commonly used in my line of work.

    Perhaps Swinson had to be back in Scotland during the week for a medical appointment, but it is increasingly clear that the fault was not here in terms of the Pairing.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It's not at all clear that these people were - legally - refugees since no checks were made. That in itself is part of the problem.

    But the point is that there are rules and those rules should have been enforced. Instead they weren't and it has caused social problems within Germany, tensions with other EU countries and a belief that the EU's external borders are not being properly policed which feeds into concerns with FoM and Schengen, leading to borders and fences being erected where before there were none. It has also led to liberal countries like Denmark instituting policies to require integration precisely because of concerns that too many people have been let in who do not wish to integrate and that this is a danger to social cohesion.

    No wonder populist parties are on the rise. Blaming them for the failures of the established parties is to get matters the wrong way round. They are filling the political vacuum created by the failure of the established parties to deal sensibly with non-EU migration.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    So the whip gets the chop and the civil servant gets a £20k bonus on the same day for the same clusterfudge.

    Unsurprising.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,869

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    brendan16 said:

    John_M said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects

    Poland, Kantar poll:

    When should Poland join the Eurozone?

    Never: 53%
    In next 5 years: 21%
    In next 6-10 years: 13%
    In more than 10 years: 13%

    Field work: 06/07/18-7/07/18
    Sample size: 1,000"

    Poland another nation that will not be part of the Eurozone and a full Federal EU
    Poland's accession treaty requires it to join the Eurozone. The EU is a rules based organisation, as many tell us. Only Denmark (and the erstwhile UK before it became a deserted wasteland) has/had an opt out.
    Sweden is also supposed to join the Eurozone - it was an EU member for six years before the Euro was introduced and 18 years since the Euro began it still hasn't joined. If they don't enforce this requirement on Sweden why would they do so on Poland?

    The EU picks and chooses what obligations it follows - and I expect the ECB has enough problems with managing existing members like Italy and Greece without forcing others to join.
    The Euro joining rule is vague enough that the conditions are effectively decided by the nation concerned, with no serious attempt at enforcement.

    The rise of Nationalist Populist parties in the EU is not being driven by anti EU sentiment, which is quite modest by UK standards, but rather by non EU migration and asylum seekers. Indeed in this Tpmmy Robinsons mob has a lot in common with them, being centered on anti Muslim sentiment rather than anything EU related.
    It's EU related in a sense because official EU policy is for each country to have a quota of migrants which is must take in and has previously threatened (though stepped back from, thankfully) punishment beatings and withdrawal of EU funding from those countries who won't accept any migrants.
    I thought that the current rules, the "Dublin Convention", was that asylum seekers should register in the first EU country they reach.

    The controversy is that this is unpopular in Italy and Greece who have pushed for burden-sharing, which is being fiercely resisted by some EU countries, most notably Hungary (I don't know the exact line-up on each side).
    Officially there is a migrant quota:

    http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5596_en.htm

    It is now 160,000 and the Eastern States have said no, the ECJ has ruled they must take them, but they have all still flatly refused to take a single migrant. This quota system as well as poorly thought out policy from Merkel has destroyed EU unity on external migration.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    So anyone else taking tomorrow off from work to they can see Mamma Mia 2 a few times at the cinema or is it just me?


    Admit it. You want to see Pierce Brosnan murdering a song again.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    When have whips ever behaved with honour?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:

    How Boris can be favourite for anything other than the role of court jester beats me.

    If he and JRM are the favourites, all this shows is that the Tories have given up on being a serious grown up political party.

    Or that punters have got it wrong.
    Boris may be a juvenile game player of the first water but I believe JRM is deadly serious.
    Boris is serious in going for the leadership (at least, until it looks like he might have to do it); I've not seen any evidence that JRM is. On the other hand, Mogg is serious in his values and policy solutions.
    JRM has got policy solutions????? I missed those. What are they?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    Wow, you'd have thought bothering to turn up to a crucial vote would be far more important than going to a Trump demo.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,816
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Diced whip on toast seems eminently appropriate.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:


    It's EU related in a sense because official EU policy is for each country to have a quota of migrants which is must take in and has previously threatened (though stepped back from, thankfully) punishment beatings and withdrawal of EU funding from those countries who won't accept any migrants.

    I thought that the current rules, the "Dublin Convention", was that asylum seekers should register in the first EU country they reach.

    The controversy is that this is unpopular in Italy and Greece who have pushed for burden-sharing, which is being fiercely resisted by some EU countries, most notably Hungary (I don't know the exact line-up on each side).
    Officially there is a migrant quota:

    http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5596_en.htm

    It is now 160,000 and the Eastern States have said no, the ECJ has ruled they must take them, but they have all still flatly refused to take a single migrant. This quota system as well as poorly thought out policy from Merkel has destroyed EU unity on external migration.
    That link just says that it is a proposal, but it's never to my knowledge been agreed by the Council of Ministers.

    Proposals from the Commission do not become official policy until agreed by the Council of Ministers.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,754
    Sean_F said:
    Not since the days of Lindi St Clair.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,629
    Thought it might have warranted a specific mention.

    Or not.

    Still, refreshing to see Trump embrace glasnost in the post-Obama era....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,701
    Cyclefree said:

    So anyone else taking tomorrow off from work to they can see Mamma Mia 2 a few times at the cinema or is it just me?


    Admit it. You want to see Pierce Brosnan murdering a song again.
    It gives me great pleasure that I’m not the world’s worst singer.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    RobD said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    Wow, you'd have thought bothering to turn up to a crucial vote would be far more important than going to a Trump demo.
    So what? That has nothing to do with whether the whips were encouraging people to break paring arrangements.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,757

    So anyone else taking tomorrow off from work to they can see Mamma Mia 2 a few times at the cinema or is it just me?

    I am sure that you are jealous of this little article :

    https://www.thelocal.se/20180404/how-to-understand-swedish-politics-through-abba-songs
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,447
    edited July 2018

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    How Boris can be favourite for anything other than the role of court jester beats me.

    If he and JRM are the favourites, all this shows is that the Tories have given up on being a serious grown up political party.

    Or that punters have got it wrong.
    Boris may be a juvenile game player of the first water but I believe JRM is deadly serious.
    Boris is serious in going for the leadership (at least, until it looks like he might have to do it); I've not seen any evidence that JRM is. On the other hand, Mogg is serious in his values and policy solutions.
    JRM has got policy solutions????? I missed those. What are they?
    1. Restore responsible government to Southern Rhodesia

    2. Repeal the Government of India Act 1947

    3. A full pardon, with restored pension rights, for Police Constable Savage

    4. Reinstate the purchase of commissions in the armed forces

    5. Repeal the Mines and Factories Act 1842

    6. Repeal the Married Womens' Property Acts
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited July 2018
    surby said:

    I believe this visa issue like aircrafts flying and Euratom will be sorted out because at the end of the day it is mainly paperwork.

    Visits upto 3 months stay will be given just like when we go to the US. But we have to pay to get a visa to Australia.
    Most Brits travel to the US for tourism on the visa waiver scheme via the ESTA application process - it's not a visa as such but a pre clearance process. You can still be refused entry on arrival of course but that is very very rare.

    As for Brits needing visas to go to the EU or EEA area - well given the EU don't require citizens of Vanuatu and Nicaragua to have visas to enter Schengen for tourism I think it is rather unlikely they will make Brits require tourist visas. The UK is the largest source of tourists for Spain for example and processing 9 million tourist visas a year just for Spain might prove hard work for the bureaucrats. So another silly non story - we will go on the non visa list!

    If the EU really does play silly there are over 130 countries outside the EU that will continue to allow Brits visa free travel for holidays for up to 3 and even six months so we can just vote with our wallets!
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:
    I’m the waiter not the chef. I’m not stockpiling Stilton just yet.

    Still, it’s good to know that the extent of Leaver ambition has shrunk to keeping the supermarket shelves stocked with milk.
    Surely the amount of Stilton, like Cheddar Cheese that we import is precisely 0 grams?
    No - we import a lot of Cheddar from Ireland.

    Edit - this paper from 2 years ago sets it out for those interested:

    https://ahdb.org.uk/brexit/documents/Dairy_bitesize.pdf
    Not that I've ever been able to find any of this Irish cheddar. Union flags on everything that I've seen.

    I think that a lot of Irish milk must be driven across the border to NI to adopt British citizenship somehow.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,701
    Foxy said:

    So anyone else taking tomorrow off from work to they can see Mamma Mia 2 a few times at the cinema or is it just me?

    I am sure that you are jealous of this little article :

    https://www.thelocal.se/20180404/how-to-understand-swedish-politics-through-abba-songs
    My my.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,442
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    If you turn up to work while on maternity leave, you can forfeit your right to maternity leave.

    I can see why she would do one in a private capacity, and not the other and risk getting into a tangle.

    That said I don't know if MPs have official maternity leave, given they don't have to turn up anyway (cf Jared O'Mara).
    Not true. Maternity leave provision does allow for occasional contact days in order to keep in touch. This is very commonly used in my line of work.

    Perhaps Swinson had to be back in Scotland during the week for a medical appointment, but it is increasingly clear that the fault was not here in terms of the Pairing.
    It may do in the NHS, it doesn't under the law.

    And we lose Higgins. Almost as bad a collapse as in the first innings.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
    I'll bet the women and girls sexually harassed / raped by the "refugees" feel very grateful for Merkel's "brave" decision.

    What was brave was when she pointed out to the Syrian girl a few weeks earlier that, as is the case and as Germany has now recognised, that Europe cannot take everyone who wants to go there. That is being honest. Even if it is not what people want to hear. Making decisions out of panic and misplaced sentimentality rarely leads to good long-term decision-making.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    If you turn up to work while on maternity leave, you can forfeit your right to maternity leave.

    I can see why she would do one in a private capacity, and not the other and risk getting into a tangle.

    That said I don't know if MPs have official maternity leave, given they don't have to turn up anyway (cf Jared O'Mara).
    Not true. Maternity leave provision does allow for occasional contact days in order to keep in touch. This is very commonly used in my line of work.

    Perhaps Swinson had to be back in Scotland during the week for a medical appointment, but it is increasingly clear that the fault was not here in terms of the Pairing.
    Yes you are correct upto 10 days to keep in touch.

    https://www.gov.uk/employee-rights-when-on-leave
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,442
    With regard to maternity leave and sick leave, surely a better system than proxy voting and paired voting would be for the party to nominate a substitute MP for 6 months, as they can in the US, subject to approval by the Speakers and deputies. That would end this straight away and ensure that constituents still get representation.

    However, this is all a side issue to the real problem - that Julian Smith is a liar and so thick he can't even lie convincingly. Clearly he has to go.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited July 2018
    Sean_F said:


    6. Repeal the Married Womens' Property Acts

    Jacob Brexitborn, of the house Rees-Mogg
    First of His Name, the Unburdened by reason,
    King of the constitutional Vandals and the Worst Men,
    Khal of the Great Arse Sea,
    Banner of abortions,
    Fertiliser of Wives,
    Hater of Gays,
    and Father of European Reform Dragons
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,442
    Yorkcity said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    If you turn up to work while on maternity leave, you can forfeit your right to maternity leave.

    I can see why she would do one in a private capacity, and not the other and risk getting into a tangle.

    That said I don't know if MPs have official maternity leave, given they don't have to turn up anyway (cf Jared O'Mara).
    Not true. Maternity leave provision does allow for occasional contact days in order to keep in touch. This is very commonly used in my line of work.

    Perhaps Swinson had to be back in Scotland during the week for a medical appointment, but it is increasingly clear that the fault was not here in terms of the Pairing.
    Yes you are correct upto 10 days to keep in touch.

    https://www.gov.uk/employee-rights-when-on-leave
    'Keeping in touch' is not the same as returning to work! In my experience of teaching, you're allowed to come in to talk to colleagues, but not to do any teaching. If you do, you are put on immediate notice to return.

    Swinson's voting wouldn't have fallen under the first definition.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,222
    @MikeSmithson Do you have any idea what Movistar's gameplan is here ?!
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Is it me ,does that tweet make sense ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,629

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
    OR...Cameron showed leadership, in funding assistance in the region. So no, not the only one. (Oh, and Cameron's answer was the right one.)
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
    I'll bet the women and girls sexually harassed / raped by the "refugees" feel very grateful for Merkel's "brave" decision.

    What was brave was when she pointed out to the Syrian girl a few weeks earlier that, as is the case and as Germany has now recognised, that Europe cannot take everyone who wants to go there. That is being honest. Even if it is not what people want to hear. Making decisions out of panic and misplaced sentimentality rarely leads to good long-term decision-making.
    I suppose all Mexicans are rapists too, aren't they?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,442

    ydoethur said:

    John_M said:
    I’m the waiter not the chef. I’m not stockpiling Stilton just yet.

    Still, it’s good to know that the extent of Leaver ambition has shrunk to keeping the supermarket shelves stocked with milk.
    Surely the amount of Stilton, like Cheddar Cheese that we import is precisely 0 grams?
    No - we import a lot of Cheddar from Ireland.

    Edit - this paper from 2 years ago sets it out for those interested:

    https://ahdb.org.uk/brexit/documents/Dairy_bitesize.pdf
    Not that I've ever been able to find any of this Irish cheddar. Union flags on everything that I've seen.

    I think that a lot of Irish milk must be driven across the border to NI to adopt British citizenship somehow.
    It's in every major supermarket. You just have to look for the 'Irish Cheddar' label. Also it forms a lot of own brand cheese.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    I thought the Cyprus intercept was known before?

    https://twitter.com/matthewwells/status/1019943492687187969?s=21
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    ydoethur said:

    With regard to maternity leave and sick leave, surely a better system than proxy voting and paired voting would be for the party to nominate a substitute MP for 6 months, as they can in the US, subject to approval by the Speakers and deputies. That would end this straight away and ensure that constituents still get representation.

    However, this is all a side issue to the real problem - that Julian Smith is a liar and so thick he can't even lie convincingly. Clearly he has to go.

    Being caught out (as Walter Harrison never was) is the worst crime.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Salisbury poisoning, codewords and flight departure of suspect.

    https://twitter.com/MatthewWells/status/1019943492687187969
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
    OR...Cameron showed leadership, in funding assistance in the region. So no, not the only one. (Oh, and Cameron's answer was the right one.)
    Cameron’s answer was much better - at one point the UK was spending more on Syrian refugees than the rest of the EU combined.

    Merkel’s “compassion” was a people smuggler’s charter.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
    OR...Cameron showed leadership, in funding assistance in the region. So no, not the only one. (Oh, and Cameron's answer was the right one.)
    1 million against 10,000.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    If you turn up to work while on maternity leave, you can forfeit your right to maternity leave.

    I can see why she would do one in a private capacity, and not the other and risk getting into a tangle.

    That said I don't know if MPs have official maternity leave, given they don't have to turn up anyway (cf Jared O'Mara).
    Not true. Maternity leave provision does allow for occasional contact days in order to keep in touch. This is very commonly used in my line of work.

    Perhaps Swinson had to be back in Scotland during the week for a medical appointment, but it is increasingly clear that the fault was not here in terms of the Pairing.
    Yes you are correct upto 10 days to keep in touch.

    https://www.gov.uk/employee-rights-when-on-leave
    'Keeping in touch' is not the same as returning to work! In my experience of teaching, you're allowed to come in to talk to colleagues, but not to do any teaching. If you do, you are put on immediate notice to return.

    Swinson's voting wouldn't have fallen under the first definition.
    It does say , employees are allowed to work upto ,10 days during their maternity leave.The type work should be agreed between employer and employee.

    That is what happens where I used to work in the public sector.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,447
    edited July 2018

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
    OR...Cameron showed leadership, in funding assistance in the region. So no, not the only one. (Oh, and Cameron's answer was the right one.)
    They are different things. Cameron's answer came later as part of the overall strategy to reduce migration. Merkel's action was taken in order to avert an ongoing emergency at the time, for which no-one else had an answer.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Scott_P said:
    The current Tories are not very honourable.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    If you turn up to work while on maternity leave, you can forfeit your right to maternity leave.

    I can see why she would do one in a private capacity, and not the other and risk getting into a tangle.

    That said I don't know if MPs have official maternity leave, given they don't have to turn up anyway (cf Jared O'Mara).
    Not true. Maternity leave provision does allow for occasional contact days in order to keep in touch. This is very commonly used in my line of work.

    Perhaps Swinson had to be back in Scotland during the week for a medical appointment, but it is increasingly clear that the fault was not here in terms of the Pairing.
    Yes you are correct upto 10 days to keep in touch.

    https://www.gov.uk/employee-rights-when-on-leave
    'Keeping in touch' is not the same as returning to work! In my experience of teaching, you're allowed to come in to talk to colleagues, but not to do any teaching. If you do, you are put on immediate notice to return.

    Swinson's voting wouldn't have fallen under the first definition.
    It does say , employees are allowed to work upto ,10 days during their maternity leave.The type work should be agreed between employer and employee.

    That is what happens where I used to work in the public sector.
    (I should imagine) none of that applies to MPs, who aren't employees - as was also discussed during the Bercow et al abuse row. If they *were*, there'd be some sort of arrangement for their work to be covered and pairing wouldn't be an issue.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Someone has been leaking to Guido perhaps Lewis hasn't enough friends.

    https://order-order.com/2018/07/19/brandon-knew-he-was-paired-bit-voted-anyway/
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
    I'll bet the women and girls sexually harassed / raped by the "refugees" feel very grateful for Merkel's "brave" decision.

    What was brave was when she pointed out to the Syrian girl a few weeks earlier that, as is the case and as Germany has now recognised, that Europe cannot take everyone who wants to go there. That is being honest. Even if it is not what people want to hear. Making decisions out of panic and misplaced sentimentality rarely leads to good long-term decision-making.
    I suppose all Mexicans are rapists too, aren't they?
    No. Nor are all men from the Middle East. But it is undeniable that some of those who Merkel let in have committed sexual crimes. These are facts. Maybe Merkel thought that this was the price you have to pay. It wasn't her paying, though.

    And I am old-fashioned enough to think that the first duty of the state is to protect its citizens from harm. That does not equate to my mind to letting in without any form of vetting or control a load of young men from countries with a misogynistic approach to women. That is why we have rules to distinguish genuine asylum seekers from other migrants and why countries generally have rules to keep out those with criminal records or of bad character. None of this was done.

    Then when crimes happened the reaction of those at the top was to hush them up or tell women not to go out or only go out with male protectors or only go to womens' areas.

    It was a dereliction of duty on Merkel's part. It was not thought through. It caused difficult social and political consequences, not just in her country. And Germany is now trying to reverse it.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    RobD said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    Wow, you'd have thought bothering to turn up to a crucial vote would be far more important than going to a Trump demo.
    She had a pairing arrangement ! How would she know that Tories can never be trusted ? Well, she should have known.

    She could not get a "pair" for the demonstration.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    .
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
    I'll bet the women and girls sexually harassed / raped by the "refugees" feel very grateful for Merkel's "brave" decision.

    What was brave was when she pointed out to the Syrian girl a few weeks earlier that, as is the case and as Germany has now recognised, that Europe cannot take everyone who wants to go there. That is being honest. Even if it is not what people want to hear. Making decisions out of panic and misplaced sentimentality rarely leads to good long-term decision-making.
    I suppose all Mexicans are rapists too, aren't they?
    No. Nor are all men from the Middle East. But it is undeniable that some of those who Merkel let in have committed sexual crimes. These are facts. Maybe Merkel thought that this was the price you have to pay. It wasn't her paying, though.

    And I am old-fashioned enough to think that the first duty of the state is to protect its citizens from harm. That does not equate to my mind to letting in without any form of vetting or control a load of young men from countries with a misogynistic approach to women. That is why we have rules to distinguish genuine asylum seekers from other migrants and why countries generally have rules to keep out those with criminal records or of bad character. None of this was done.

    Then when crimes happened the reaction of those at the top was to hush them up or tell women not to go out or only go out with male protectors or only go to womens' areas.

    It was a dereliction of duty on Merkel's part. It was not thought through. It caused difficult social and political consequences, not just in her country. And Germany is now trying to reverse it.
    Is there any statistic which says that the Syrians committed proportionately far greater number of rapes than other people living in Germany ? I mean statistically significant.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,003
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
    I'll bet the women and girls sexually harassed / raped by the "refugees" feel very grateful for Merkel's "brave" decision.

    What was brave was when she pointed out to the Syrian girl a few weeks earlier that, as is the case and as Germany has now recognised, that Europe cannot take everyone who wants to go there. That is being honest. Even if it is not what people want to hear. Making decisions out of panic and misplaced sentimentality rarely leads to good long-term decision-making.
    I suppose all Mexicans are rapists too, aren't they?

    And I am old-fashioned enough to think that the first duty of the state is to protect its citizens from harm. That does not equate to my mind to letting in without any form of vetting or control a load of young men from countries with a misogynistic approach to women.
    So how would you deal with holidaymakers from, say, Saudi? Or XXX, or YYY?

    You have set yourself an unattainably high bar there for keeping out the furriners.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    surby said:

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
    OR...Cameron showed leadership, in funding assistance in the region. So no, not the only one. (Oh, and Cameron's answer was the right one.)
    1 million against 10,000.
    Merkel took in a million? She truly is mad!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,629

    Cyclefree said:


    You don't think that the the facts that the EU has been utterly rubbish at managing non-EU migration and, specifically, migration from Muslim countries and that Germany broke the rules single-handedly then tried to rope in other EU countries to come to her aid have nothing to do with the rise in popularity of such parties?

    This is entirely backwards. The optional step that Merkel took was to say that Germany would take refugees rather than sending them back to the EU country they entered Germany from, even though they weren't technically obliged to.
    It was an extremely brave decision by Merkel. People seem to have forgotten that, at the time, what was a refugee crisis was threatening to become a humanitarian crisis. While everyone else was turning a blind eye or throwing up their hands in despair, she was the only one who showed a bit of leadership in a crisis situation. Sometimes you have to break rules to save lives.
    OR...Cameron showed leadership, in funding assistance in the region. So no, not the only one. (Oh, and Cameron's answer was the right one.)
    They are different things. Cameron's answer came later as part of the overall strategy to reduce migration. Merkel's action was taken in order to avert an ongoing emergency at the time, for which no-one else had an answer.
    No, not different things. Just uncomfortable things - for you. If they had all held the line on it being a strategy to reduce migration, it could have worked. Except of course, many of the people coming were not from Syria. They were fleeing relative poverty, not warfare. I'm still at a loss to know how opening the borders of Germany to anyone who could make it there - refugees from civil war or economic migrants paying massive fees to people smugglers - did anything other than exacerbate that ongoing emergency you refer to.

    That it was Germany bouncing the whole of the 28 EU countries into doing as they were told had no small part in ensuring Brexit got over the finish line.
  • William_HWilliam_H Posts: 346
    ydoethur said:

    With regard to maternity leave and sick leave, surely a better system than proxy voting and paired voting would be for the party to nominate a substitute MP for 6 months, as they can in the US, subject to approval by the Speakers and deputies. That would end this straight away and ensure that constituents still get representation.

    However, this is all a side issue to the real problem - that Julian Smith is a liar and so thick he can't even lie convincingly. Clearly he has to go.

    The MP should nominate any substitute, not the party.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,301



    They are different things. Cameron's answer came later as part of the overall strategy to reduce migration. Merkel's action was taken in order to avert an ongoing emergency at the time, for which no-one else had an answer.

    You're not going to get much pro-Merkel sympathy on here. But I also wonder whether history will look back at her decision much more favourably than it is currently seen. I personally think the idea of each country in Europe taking its share of refugees makes a lot of sense.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,816
    Mr. D, thought the number was far higher, perhaps twice that. Think it was a million in the highest year, very high the following year, and diminished after that.

    Mr. Surby, how could such stats exist? Everyone was let in, without needing documents. Nobody knows where a great many of them are from.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    If you turn up to work while on maternity leave, you can forfeit your right to maternity leave.

    I can see why she would do one in a private capacity, and not the other and risk getting into a tangle.

    That said I don't know if MPs have official maternity leave, given they don't have to turn up anyway (cf Jared O'Mara).
    Not true. Maternity leave provision does allow for occasional contact days in order to keep in touch. This is very commonly used in my line of work.

    Perhaps Swinson had to be back in Scotland during the week for a medical appointment, but it is increasingly clear that the fault was not here in terms of the Pairing.
    Yes you are correct upto 10 days to keep in touch.

    https://www.gov.uk/employee-rights-when-on-leave
    'Keeping in touch' is not the same as returning to work! In my experience of teaching, you're allowed to come in to talk to colleagues, but not to do any teaching. If you do, you are put on immediate notice to return.

    Swinson's voting wouldn't have fallen under the first definition.
    It does say , employees are allowed to work upto ,10 days during their maternity leave.The type work should be agreed between employer and employee.

    That is what happens where I used to work in the public sector.
    (I should imagine) none of that applies to MPs, who aren't employees - as was also discussed during the Bercow et al abuse row. If they *were*, there'd be some sort of arrangement for their work to be covered and pairing wouldn't be an issue.
    Yes I am sure , you are correct Harris.

    Parliament has differing arrangements , to the rest of the public sector.
    As you say Mps are not employees.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    surby said:

    RobD said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Was Jo Swinson not too tired to turn up at that anti Trump demo last Friday but then incapable of turning up to vote in The Commons on Tuesday?

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/come-and-join-the-liberal-democrat-antitrump-protest-tomorrow-at-2pm-libdemsagainsttrump-58046.html

    Wow, you'd have thought bothering to turn up to a crucial vote would be far more important than going to a Trump demo.
    She had a pairing arrangement ! How would she know that Tories can never be trusted ? Well, she should have known.

    She could not get a "pair" for the demonstration.
    Is that how you deal with important moments in your life, by getting someone else to do it?

    Anyway, I thought the whole point of maternity leave was to care for your children.
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