politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Another day goes by and still 48 CON MPs have not sent letters
Comments
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Government has lost the EMA amendment - clause 17 - by 4 votes. 305 to 301
Suggests they may lose on clause 18 too.0 -
Govt lose Clause 17
Big one is 18 coming up now
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That's right. But possibly a trial run for NC18.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's Phillip Lee's medicines one, I think. Not crucial.NickPalmer said:Government defeated by 4 on NC17 (not the crucial one)
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I doubt they would have the numbers against the third readingbigjohnowls said:
Well if ERG vote against 3rd reading she must be in serious danger.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No - I think they will rebel due to yesterday events.bigjohnowls said:
Thanksbrendan16 said:
New clause 18.bigjohnowls said:Which is the CU Amendment??
Now voting on 17
What do PBers think?
On past form the rebels will fold at the last minute
Will this time be different?
Could TM resign tonight. Now that would be a story
I keep feeling a bit sorry for her but then i remind myself without GE 2017 ......0 -
@Cyclefree very eloquently explained to you the situation of the Palestinians.William_H said:
I support the existence of America, as I do the existence of Israel alongside Palestine. I condemn the genocide of the Native Americans, just as I do the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (and their continued lack of self determination).TOPPING said:I hope we’re not losing PBers for wondering why @William_H is not out campaigning for the Native Americans to reclaim New York.
I generally don't get into arguments about native americans online because few now justify the atrocities carried out against them
It is not I who am being inconsistent.
Of course it doesn’t suit your preferred narrative but them was the facts.
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We shall soon see!NickPalmer said:
That's right. But possibly a trial run for NC18.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's Phillip Lee's medicines one, I think. Not crucial.NickPalmer said:Government defeated by 4 on NC17 (not the crucial one)
Edit: Actually I'm surprised the government didn't just accept it. It doesn't seem very controversial.0 -
Wouldn't it imply membership of the EEA?Richard_Nabavi said:
That's Phillip Lee's medicines one, I think. Not crucial.NickPalmer said:Government defeated by 4 on NC17 (not the crucial one)
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I’m not sure resigning is a thing she does. It’s not clear to me why NC18 is worse than the ERG amendments adopted by the government yesterday (if you squint slightly, both of them could be seen as approximately compatible with Chequers) so I can’t see why she would take yesterday’s events in her stride and then be completely destabilised by a comparable defeat from the other flank.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No - I think they will rebel due to yesterday events.bigjohnowls said:
Thanksbrendan16 said:
New clause 18.bigjohnowls said:Which is the CU Amendment??
Now voting on 17
What do PBers think?
On past form the rebels will fold at the last minute
Will this time be different?
Could TM resign tonight. Now that would be a story
The level of anger about yesterday seems very high on the moderate wing of the party, and it looks like the whips are having to resort to some pretty extreme threats - question is whether they will be taken seriously.0 -
305-303
If one moves back to Govt its a tie
What happens then????0 -
Looks as if ERG may have pushed things too far. Won the battle and lost the war, maybePolruan said:
I’m not sure resigning is a thing she does. It’s not clear to me why NC18 is worse than the ERG amendments adopted by the government yesterday (if you squint slightly, both of them could be seen as approximately compatible with Chequers) so I can’t see why she would take yesterday’s events in her stride and then be completely destabilised by a comparable defeat from the other flank.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No - I think they will rebel due to yesterday events.bigjohnowls said:
Thanksbrendan16 said:
New clause 18.bigjohnowls said:Which is the CU Amendment??
Now voting on 17
What do PBers think?
On past form the rebels will fold at the last minute
Will this time be different?
Could TM resign tonight. Now that would be a story
The level of anger about yesterday seems very high on the moderate wing of the party, and it looks like the whips are having to resort to some pretty extreme threats - question is whether they will be taken seriously.0 -
It was 305 - 301!bigjohnowls said:305-303
If one moves back to Govt its a tie
What happens then????0 -
The Speaker votes for the status quo, i.e. against the amendment. Was 305-301 though.bigjohnowls said:305-303
If one moves back to Govt its a tie
What happens then????0 -
Speaker maybebigjohnowls said:305-303
If one moves back to Govt its a tie
What happens then????0 -
You could argue that the status quo is that we are in a Customs Union!NickPalmer said:
The Speaker votes for the status quo, i.e. against the amendment. Was 305-301 though.bigjohnowls said:305-303
If one moves back to Govt its a tie
What happens then????0 -
First time for a while I've watched the Parliament channel live.0
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They surely would if other parties voted against.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt they would have the numbers against the third readingbigjohnowls said:
Well if ERG vote against 3rd reading she must be in serious danger.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No - I think they will rebel due to yesterday events.bigjohnowls said:
Thanksbrendan16 said:
New clause 18.bigjohnowls said:Which is the CU Amendment??
Now voting on 17
What do PBers think?
On past form the rebels will fold at the last minute
Will this time be different?
Could TM resign tonight. Now that would be a story
I keep feeling a bit sorry for her but then i remind myself without GE 2017 ......
Its not passed the 6 tests remember0 -
Status quo in the billRichard_Nabavi said:
You could argue that the status quo is that we are in a Customs Union!NickPalmer said:
The Speaker votes for the status quo, i.e. against the amendment. Was 305-301 though.bigjohnowls said:305-303
If one moves back to Govt its a tie
What happens then????0 -
Well it's an EU agency which oversees medicines in the EU and EEA member states. Not sure if a non EEA/EU member can be a member of the EMA but there is always a first.williamglenn said:
Wouldn't it imply membership of the EEA?Richard_Nabavi said:
That's Phillip Lee's medicines one, I think. Not crucial.NickPalmer said:Government defeated by 4 on NC17 (not the crucial one)
Switzerland isn't a member but does have mutual recognition agreements in place with the EMA.
http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/partners_and_networks/general/general_content_001712.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac058009b148
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Bercow could argue the moon was made of cheese TBFRichard_Nabavi said:
You could argue that the status quo is that we are in a Customs Union!NickPalmer said:
The Speaker votes for the status quo, i.e. against the amendment. Was 305-301 though.bigjohnowls said:305-303
If one moves back to Govt its a tie
What happens then????0 -
Quite right. Have you not seen the documentary "A Grand Day Out"?bigjohnowls said:
Bercow could argue the moon was made of cheese TBFRichard_Nabavi said:
You could argue that the status quo is that we are in a Customs Union!NickPalmer said:
The Speaker votes for the status quo, i.e. against the amendment. Was 305-301 though.bigjohnowls said:305-303
If one moves back to Govt its a tie
What happens then????0 -
Wonder if Labour leavers might help to defeat the customs union for a 5th time...0
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Rebels folded0
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Government holds 307-3010
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Wowbigjohnowls said:Rebels folded
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I’m not sure the threats are being taken particularly seriously, but the strong arm treatment of the rebels compared to that of the ERG rebels appears to be helping make them rather angry.Polruan said:
I’m not sure resigning is a thing she does. It’s not clear to me why NC18 is worse than the ERG amendments adopted by the government yesterday (if you squint slightly, both of them could be seen as approximately compatible with Chequers) so I can’t see why she would take yesterday’s events in her stride and then be completely destabilised by a comparable defeat from the other flank.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No - I think they will rebel due to yesterday events.bigjohnowls said:
Thanksbrendan16 said:
New clause 18.bigjohnowls said:Which is the CU Amendment??
Now voting on 17
What do PBers think?
On past form the rebels will fold at the last minute
Will this time be different?
Could TM resign tonight. Now that would be a story
The level of anger about yesterday seems very high on the moderate wing of the party, and it looks like the whips are having to resort to some pretty extreme threats - question is whether they will be taken seriously.
But apparently not angry enough...0 -
Enjoy it while you can.NickPalmer said:First time for a while I've watched the Parliament channel live.
It's being heavily scaled back - from next week it will only broadcast when parliament is sitting (rather than 24 hour coverage all year round as now) and will have no original or analysis shows programming due to BBC cuts.0 -
Will be interesting to see who bailed.bigjohnowls said:Rebels folded
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Looks like there are roughly 4 sensible MPs in the house.0
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Boy do the whips deserve a huge hug from TMMortimer said:Wonder if Labour leavers might help to defeat the customs union for a 5th time...
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Who changed between votes0
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Suggests a few MPs wanted to fire a warning shot with NC17 but not defeat the Government.0
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John MannPolruan said:
Will be interesting to see who bailed.bigjohnowls said:Rebels folded
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It was the Customs Union's Nearest Test.NickPalmer said:Government holds 307-301
Coincidentally, the acronym of that describes many people involved on all sides, starting with the Commission and the DExEU0 -
Or a few true and sturdy yeoman from the opposition understand that staying on the customs union is a non starter.NickPalmer said:Suggests a few MPs wanted to fire a warning shot with NC17 but not defeat the Government.
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Bigger win for the Govt than last night then on the Customs Union vote in the endNickPalmer said:Government holds 307-301
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Using the Israel-Palestine argument and transferring it to the native Americans I assume all Israel supporters would enthusiastically support the native Americans taking back America and kicking out the people who live there in a couple of thousand years time if they move to another continent and suffer a terrible genocide in that time...TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree very eloquently explained to you the situation of the Palestinians.William_H said:
I support the existence of America, as I do the existence of Israel alongside Palestine. I condemn the genocide of the Native Americans, just as I do the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (and their continued lack of self determination).TOPPING said:I hope we’re not losing PBers for wondering why @William_H is not out campaigning for the Native Americans to reclaim New York.
I generally don't get into arguments about native americans online because few now justify the atrocities carried out against them
It is not I who am being inconsistent.
Of course it doesn’t suit your preferred narrative but them was the facts.
There never usually seems to be as much enthusiasm for the comparison once you look into it in a bit more depth.
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Which rebels?bigjohnowls said:Rebels folded
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Er, haven’t we had a vote on staying in the customs union before? This whole Brexit process feels like Groundhog Day....0
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Interesting outcome.
Suggests there is a majority in the House comfortable with hard Brexit.
Hold on to your knickers. This sucker’s going down, as George Bush once said.0 -
Not sure there is if that becomes the dealGardenwalker said:Interesting outcome.
Suggests there is a majority in the House comfortable with hard Brexit.
Hold on to your knickers. This sucker’s going down, as George Bush once said.0 -
Let the stockpiling of tinned foods begin.Gardenwalker said:Interesting outcome.
Suggests there is a majority in the House comfortable with hard Brexit.
Hold on to your knickers. This sucker’s going down, as George Bush once said.0 -
Yes various customs amendments have been defeated 5 times now. Personally I'd favour it in an ideal world but Id have voted against it this time on the basis the house has rejected it 4 times.aleadyThe_Apocalypse said:Er, haven’t we had a vote on staying in the customs union before? This whole Brexit process feels like Groundhog Day....
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Agreed. A lot of MPs and ministers are keeping their powder dry until the crisis gets a lot more acute.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not sure there is if that becomes the dealGardenwalker said:Interesting outcome.
Suggests there is a majority in the House comfortable with hard Brexit.
Hold on to your knickers. This sucker’s going down, as George Bush once said.0 -
But why would that worry them given that the rebels would all fall back into line on the confidence vote?The_Apocalypse said:0 -
This is the fifth.The_Apocalypse said:Er, haven’t we had a vote on staying in the customs union before? This whole Brexit process feels like Groundhog Day....
It’s ridiculous. MPs need to get the message this time...0 -
Given 408 out of 650 MPs constituencies voted Leave it is not surprising the Commons has voted to Leave the Single Market and Customs Union.Gardenwalker said:Interesting outcome.
Suggests there is a majority in the House comfortable with hard Brexit.
Hold on to your knickers. This sucker’s going down, as George Bush once said.
Until say Chuka Umunna wins a general election on a pro single market platform there is likely to be a narrow majority in the Commons for hard Brexit for some time to come, especially as neither the Tories nor Corbyn support staying in the single market even if Corbyn had got his way and we stayed in a Customs Union after tonight's votes0 -
The size of these government victories will encourage the Lords to play ping pong in the Autumn. Unless May has made progress on her fantasy Customs Partnership which she wasn't going to anyway and certainly won't after yesterday's capitulation. We'll be here again in the Autumn. The only question is will the undetlying dynamic between now and then have strengthened the governments hand or further weakened it ? Still nice to see the Tory Europhiles finally fighting back even if they don't have the numbers yet. The EMA defeat of the government is symbolic but symbolism matters.0
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Surely it was the President after Bush who said that?Gardenwalker said:Interesting outcome.
Suggests there is a majority in the House comfortable with hard Brexit.
Hold on to your knickers. This sucker’s going down, as George Bush once said.
Edit - re your other point, the thing is that Hard Brexit is now the default. The only thing we have learned in the last fortnight is that nobody, including Parliament and the EU, can agree on an alternative. That makes the default the likely outcome.0 -
Not for us country bumpkins. I look forward to the BBC headlines, moped gangs mug sharp suited city dweller of a tin of baked beans but leave the iphone and massive "wally" watch.Freggles said:
Let the stockpiling of tinned foods begin.Gardenwalker said:Interesting outcome.
Suggests there is a majority in the House comfortable with hard Brexit.
Hold on to your knickers. This sucker’s going down, as George Bush once said.0 -
Did Cable and Farron vote this time and did they know who to vote for !!!!!!0
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So why the doom and gloom regarding this particular vote by some commentators? Since the house has already rejected these amendments before, today is hardly surprising. Yet all over twitter there’s comments suggesting we are definitely heading towards a Hard Brexit. The mood seems to chop and change: one minute we’re going to have a Soft Brexit, the next a Hard Brexit. And commentators make these conclusions definitively each and every time until themood swings again. This whole process is beyond tedious at this stage.Pulpstar said:
Yes various customs amendments have been defeated 5 times now. Personally I'd favour it in an ideal world but Id have voted against it this time on the basis the house has rejected it 4 times.aleadyThe_Apocalypse said:Er, haven’t we had a vote on staying in the customs union before? This whole Brexit process feels like Groundhog Day....
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Anddddddddd....
The Good Ship May sails on serenely.
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Looks like they did. There were 12 Tory rebels on NC18, but 4 Labour MPs voted with the government.Big_G_NorthWales said:Did Cable and Farron vote this time and did they know who to vote for !!!!!!
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All because they are desperate to leave the customs union!?Polruan said:
Against the stated policy of their leader, the trades unions, and what I imagine is also the view of both the membership and labour voters.
I can understand Labour leavers backing the end of FOM but desperately saving a Tory govt for this!?0 -
Might they be trying to delay these votes until after the deal is struck?Yellow_Submarine said:The size of these government victories will encourage the Lords to play ping pong in the Autumn. Unless May has made progress on her fantasy Customs Partnership which she wasn't going to anyway and certainly won't after yesterday's capitulation. We'll be here again in the Autumn. The only question is will the undetlying dynamic between now and then have strengthened the governments hand or further weakened it ? Still nice to see the Tory Europhiles finally fighting back even if they don't have the numbers yet. The EMA defeat of the government is symbolic but symbolism matters.
Then it becomes a “vote this down and you get hard Brexit” line..0 -
But the Government would have won any confidence vote!Polruan said:0 -
But the ( current ) direction of travel is clear. If the government is down to a majority of 6 after the ' Nuclear Option ' ( though the FTPA has reduced the megatonage ) of a Confidence vote threat has been deployed where will we be in the Autumn ? After all these votes are all dress rehersal. You can't will into existence a UK/EU agreement by unilatetally amending domestic legislation after all. The big votes come in the Winter. The question is can the government change the direction of travel ? Because after this week ( a ) it has to do what the ERG says ( b ) can onkybthen pass what the ERG says by 6 votes.
Is 6 votes in July going to last till next April ?0 -
What was that article (Blair’s?) which pointed out that every other Leaver article of faith had been shown to be a sham and hence they are now clinging on to the Customs Union which as a result has become totemic.rkrkrk said:
All because they are desperate to leave the customs union!?Polruan said:
Against the stated policy of their leader, the trades unions, and what I imagine is also the view of both the membership and labour voters.
I can understand Labour leavers backing the end of FOM but desperately saving a Tory govt for this!?0 -
To be honest. It is time for everyone to go on summer leave and let TM get on negotiating with the 27 leaders.0
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The Government was also saved by Labour abstentions tonight. Perhaps pressure will be applied to them before 'ping pong' resumes in the Autumn.0
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But a Confidence Vote is not a nuclear option at all - the Government would win it!Yellow_Submarine said:But the ( current ) direction of travel is clear. If the government is down to a majority of 6 after the ' Nuclear Option ' ( though the FTPA has reduced the megatonage ) of a Confidence vote threat has been deployed where will we be in the Autumn ? After all these votes are all dress rehersal. You can't will into existence a UK/EU agreement by unilatetally amending domestic legislation after all. The big votes come in the Winter. The question is can the government change the direction of travel ? Because after this week ( a ) it has to do what the ERG says ( b ) can onkybthen pass what the ERG says by 6 votes.
Is 6 votes in July going to last till next April ?0 -
This hard Tory brexit has revealed the true intentions of the Lib Dems,to be the enabling handmaidens of the Tories.Cable and Farron are the midwives of a hard Tory brexit and the allies of the ERG.My money is on May clinging on,but Cable getting the boot before her.0
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Cable is uselessvolcanopete said:This hard Tory brexit has revealed the true intentions of the Lib Dems,to be the enabling haidnaidens of the Tories.Cable and Farron are the midwives of a hard Tory brexit and the allies of the ERG.My money is on May clinging on,but Cable getting the boot before her.
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Field, Hoey, Hopkins, Mann and Stringer all voted with the Government to leave the Customs Union
https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/10192823778504499200 -
That will upset Faisal IslamHYUFD said:Field, Hoey, Hopkins, Mann and Stringer all voted with the Government to leave the Customs Union
https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/10192823778504499200 -
Yes - 12 Con rebels and 4 Lab rebels equals a Govt defeat if equal number of abstentions.justin124 said:The Government was also saved by Labour abstentions tonight. Perhaps pressure will be applied to them before 'ping pong' resumes in the Autumn.
Must have been approx 9 more Opposition abstentions than Con abstentions - that's a lot.0 -
As it happens their votes would not have changed the outcome last night - simply a Government majority of 1 rather than 3.volcanopete said:This hard Tory brexit has revealed the true intentions of the Lib Dems,to be the enabling handmaidens of the Tories.Cable and Farron are the midwives of a hard Tory brexit and the allies of the ERG.My money is on May clinging on,but Cable getting the boot before her.
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Agreed. We all keep saying " there is no majority for anything in the Commons " but there will be a majority against a No deal No Deal - no A50 agreement and legal chaos. So doubtless the government strategy will be to kick everything possible into the transition period and hold a ' vote for this or the Dog gets it ' vote as late as possible before Brexit Day. So curiously you have two delay dynamics tunning concurrently. The long we wait the further the government decays but the nearer the cliff edge we get the more powerfully the government can frame the A50 Ratification Bill as ' back us or doomsday '.numbertwelve said:
Might they be trying to delay these votes until after the deal is struck?Yellow_Submarine said:The size of these government victories will encourage the Lords to play ping pong in the Autumn. Unless May has made progress on her fantasy Customs Partnership which she wasn't going to anyway and certainly won't after yesterday's capitulation. We'll be here again in the Autumn. The only question is will the undetlying dynamic between now and then have strengthened the governments hand or further weakened it ? Still nice to see the Tory Europhiles finally fighting back even if they don't have the numbers yet. The EMA defeat of the government is symbolic but symbolism matters.
Then it becomes a “vote this down and you get hard Brexit” line..
How those two competing dynamics play out will be fascinating.0 -
Gutto Bebb voted for Customs Union Ammendment - but not the earlier one lost by Government.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That will upset Faisal IslamHYUFD said:Field, Hoey, Hopkins, Mann and Stringer all voted with the Government to leave the Customs Union
https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/10192823778504499200 -
Make that 7 if Hopkins with Govt.MikeL said:
Yes - 12 Con rebels and 4 Lab rebels equals a Govt defeat if equal number of abstentions.justin124 said:The Government was also saved by Labour abstentions tonight. Perhaps pressure will be applied to them before 'ping pong' resumes in the Autumn.
Must have been approx 9 more Opposition abstentions than Con abstentions - that's a lot.0 -
I have made my views on him to his constituency chairman. He is my mpjustin124 said:
Gutto Bebb voted for Customs Union Ammendment - but not the earlier one lost by Government.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That will upset Faisal IslamHYUFD said:Field, Hoey, Hopkins, Mann and Stringer all voted with the Government to leave the Customs Union
https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/10192823778504499200 -
They have been doing so pretty consistently.MikeL said:
Make that 7 if Hopkins with Govt.MikeL said:
Yes - 12 Con rebels and 4 Lab rebels equals a Govt defeat if equal number of abstentions.justin124 said:The Government was also saved by Labour abstentions tonight. Perhaps pressure will be applied to them before 'ping pong' resumes in the Autumn.
Must have been approx 9 more Opposition abstentions than Con abstentions - that's a lot.0 -
5 times the commons has said no to a customs union - get the message please.0
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John Mann, Frank Field, Kate Hoey and Graham Stringer0
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Reality will hit eventually and we will be in the customs Union because there is very little reason not to be. That parliament has voted five times against simply shows how divorced from reality it has become.Pulpstar said:
Yes various customs amendments have been defeated 5 times now. Personally I'd favour it in an ideal world but Id have voted against it this time on the basis the house has rejected it 4 times.aleadyThe_Apocalypse said:Er, haven’t we had a vote on staying in the customs union before? This whole Brexit process feels like Groundhog Day....
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How very democratic of you.FF43 said:
Reality will hit wrist and we will be in the customs Union because there is very little reason not to be. That parliament has voted five times against simply shows how divorced from reality it has become.Pulpstar said:
Yes various customs amendments have been defeated 5 times now. Personally I'd favour it in an ideal world but Id have voted against it this time on the basis the house has rejected it 4 times.aleadyThe_Apocalypse said:Er, haven’t we had a vote on staying in the customs union before? This whole Brexit process feels like Groundhog Day....
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Plus Kelvin Hopkins currently suspended. To be fair these people do hold strong views on the issue and we need to remember that until late 80/early 90s Labour was more Euroscepric than the Tories! I would have thought that the Labour Whips might have more luck working on the abstainers such as Caroline Flint.bigjohnowls said:John Mann, Frank Field, Kate Hoey and Graham Stringer
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How does this work?MikeL said:
Yes - 12 Con rebels and 4 Lab rebels equals a Govt defeat if equal number of abstentions.justin124 said:The Government was also saved by Labour abstentions tonight. Perhaps pressure will be applied to them before 'ping pong' resumes in the Autumn.
Must have been approx 9 more Opposition abstentions than Con abstentions - that's a lot.
Excluding Sinn Fein and speakers the Government has a majority of 13. That means 7 Tory rebels can defeat the government. If 5 Labour MPs vote with the government, 12 rebels becomes the magic number.
You only need 2 more Lab abstentions for the Government to win. I’d be surprised if Caroline Flint would ever vote for any of these amendments that neuter Brexit. You only need 1 more.0 -
Agreed to the extreme. We still keep changing what counts as hard and soft in any case, so it's misplaced tedium as well.The_Apocalypse said:
So why the doom and gloom regarding this particular vote by some commentators? Since the house has already rejected these amendments before, today is hardly surprising. Yet all over twitter there’s comments suggesting we are definitely heading towards a Hard Brexit. The mood seems to chop and change: one minute we’re going to have a Soft Brexit, the next a Hard Brexit. And commentators make these conclusions definitively each and every time until themood swings again. This whole process is beyond tedious at this stage.Pulpstar said:
Yes various customs amendments have been defeated 5 times now. Personally I'd favour it in an ideal world but Id have voted against it this time on the basis the house has rejected it 4 times.aleadyThe_Apocalypse said:Er, haven’t we had a vote on staying in the customs union before? This whole Brexit process feels like Groundhog Day....
A shame that - we don't get many opportunities for a majority of 1, so it would have been hilarious.justin124 said:
As it happens their votes would not have changed the outcome last night - simply a Government majority of 1 rather than 3.volcanopete said:This hard Tory brexit has revealed the true intentions of the Lib Dems,to be the enabling handmaidens of the Tories.Cable and Farron are the midwives of a hard Tory brexit and the allies of the ERG.My money is on May clinging on,but Cable getting the boot before her.
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Just spared us a VONCbigjohnowls said:John Mann, Frank Field, Kate Hoey and Graham Stringer
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There are things more important than party politics, especially when the government is so flimsy like this one that there will be further opportunities.Polruan said:0 -
All Brexit has left going for it is it's inevitability. If that goes then it's game on. Which as ever takes us back to public opinion. Which fundamentally hasn't changed. The big question now is whether than fundamental consistency of public opinion holds in the heat of the Autumn/Winter Crisis that's now approaching. On the one hand the demographic underpinnings of both Brexit blocs looks remarkably solid. On the other hand Leave has had no fresh momentum since the early May government put the machinery of state behind it. It's a supertanker moving on momentum butvwith it's engine switched off.
We'll see but it's going to be genuinely historic either way.0 -
But that would only have been a day of theatre which the Government would have won anyway. At the end of the day the Opposition can always table a No Confidence Vote.bigjohnowls said:
Just spared us a VONCbigjohnowls said:John Mann, Frank Field, Kate Hoey and Graham Stringer
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Oh please, this government will shift position on anything if it has to, I don't believe for a second something is fundamental to it.The_Apocalypse said:0 -
We need more MPs voting for what they believe in not just toeing the whips line for cynical advantage. A good day for democracy.justin124 said:
Plus Kelvin Hopkins currently suspended. To be fair these people do hold strong views on the issue and we need to remember that until late 80/early 90s Labour was more Euroscepric than the Tories! I would have thought that the Labour Whips might have more luck working on the abstainers such as Caroline Flint.bigjohnowls said:John Mann, Frank Field, Kate Hoey and Graham Stringer
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That is the rule, but Bercow doesn't like tradition, would he do so?NickPalmer said:
The Speaker votes for the status quo, i.e. against the amendment.bigjohnowls said:305-303
If one moves back to Govt its a tie
What happens then????0 -
I agree.TGOHF said:
We need more MPs voting for what they believe in not just toeing the whips line for cynical advantage. A good day for democracy.justin124 said:
Plus Kelvin Hopkins currently suspended. To be fair these people do hold strong views on the issue and we need to remember that until late 80/early 90s Labour was more Euroscepric than the Tories! I would have thought that the Labour Whips might have more luck working on the abstainers such as Caroline Flint.bigjohnowls said:John Mann, Frank Field, Kate Hoey and Graham Stringer
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I don't think that's a rule, merely a convention. Melville was impeached in 1805 on the casting vote of a speaker.kle4 said:
That is the rule, but Bercow doesn't like tradition, would he do so?NickPalmer said:
The Speaker votes for the status quo, i.e. against the amendment.bigjohnowls said:305-303
If one moves back to Govt its a tie
What happens then????0 -
What did you say Big G?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have made my views on him to his constituency chairman. He is my mpjustin124 said:
Gutto Bebb voted for Customs Union Ammendment - but not the earlier one lost by Government.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That will upset Faisal IslamHYUFD said:Field, Hoey, Hopkins, Mann and Stringer all voted with the Government to leave the Customs Union
https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1019282377850449920 0 -
If 20 - 25% of Labour voters support Leave, it's not surprising some Labour MP's abstain.MikeL said:
Yes - 12 Con rebels and 4 Lab rebels equals a Govt defeat if equal number of abstentions.justin124 said:The Government was also saved by Labour abstentions tonight. Perhaps pressure will be applied to them before 'ping pong' resumes in the Autumn.
Must have been approx 9 more Opposition abstentions than Con abstentions - that's a lot.0 -
The YouGov tracker shows unprecedented pessimism about how Brexit is going, but the number of people saying it was the right decision still hasn't dipped below 40% at any time. That will feel like a sea change if it happens.Yellow_Submarine said:All Brexit has left going for it is it's inevitability. If that goes then it's game on. Which as ever takes us back to public opinion. Which fundamentally hasn't changed. The big question now is whether than fundamental consistency of public opinion holds in the heat of the Autumn/Winter Crisis that's now approaching. On the one hand the demographic underpinnings of both Brexit blocs looks remarkably solid. On the other hand Leave has had no fresh momentum since the early May government put the machinery of state behind it. It's a supertanker moving on momentum butvwith it's engine switched off.
We'll see but it's going to be genuinely historic either way.
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/6krrxypwta/YG Trackers - EU Tracker Questions_W.pdf0 -
He has lost my supportGIN1138 said:
What did you say Big G?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have made my views on him to his constituency chairman. He is my mpjustin124 said:
Gutto Bebb voted for Customs Union Ammendment - but not the earlier one lost by Government.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That will upset Faisal IslamHYUFD said:Field, Hoey, Hopkins, Mann and Stringer all voted with the Government to leave the Customs Union
https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1019282377850449920
And that was before tonight. He was in Plaid before 20020 -
David Steel used his casting vote as Presiding Officer to pass a motion changing the status quo in the Scottish Parliament. Widely criticised at the time for breaking UK parliamentry ' convention ' but it's just that. Convention.ydoethur said:
I don't think that's a rule, merely a convention. Melville was impeached in 1805 on the casting vote of a speaker.kle4 said:
That is the rule, but Bercow doesn't like tradition, would he do so?NickPalmer said:
The Speaker votes for the status quo, i.e. against the amendment.bigjohnowls said:305-303
If one moves back to Govt its a tie
What happens then????0
