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Comments
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"honey, I didn't cheat on you, I was just selectively promiscuous"Charles said:
That just makes you selectively promiscuous, not hypocritical surely?Foxy said:
I am sure other companies are just as cavalier with personal information. We live in the Panopticon nowadays.Charles said:
Why hypocritical?Foxy said:
The real damage to Facebook is reputational. I hardly use it now, and log out when not using so that it stops tracing. Hypocritical of course as I use Twitter, Google etcDecrepitJohnL said:
Testing (and even thinking very hard) has rather gone out of fashion in the computer biz. Launch something that mostly works (minimum viable product) then fix it as the bug reports come in (or don't fix it because the team has moved on to something else). Move fast and break things, as Facebook used to say. Agile. There is no parallel with the government's approach to Brexit -- publish red lines then change them almost randomly as the EU rejects each one.rcs1000 said:Death constitutes a breach of PayPal's terms of service :
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44783779
Talking of Facebook, I see they face a £500,000 fine over the Cambridge Analytica data breaches, representing 18 minutes' profit.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/11/ico_fine_facebook_cambridge_analytica/
As a consumer you are making a choice
It’s not like you are evangelising the use of Facebook while avoiding it yourself
As a user, I am the product, the consumer is the one who pays.0 -
- extend Article 50 by 2-5 years.williamglenn said:
As we head to the endgame there will be essentially three possible options:rottenborough said:Even if it does it wont win. There's a reason Brexiteers are terrified of a 2nd referendum.
They have been found out by enough people to tip the balance next time. It'll still be close, but the other way.
- Revoke Article 50
- Ratify the Withdrawal Agreement
- No Deal
Over the next three months, my assumption is that those trashing Chequers and arguing for No Deal will drive public opinion not towards the third option but towards the first.0 -
What was that Arnie quote....?rcs1000 said:
"honey, I didn't cheat on you, I was just selectively promiscuous"Charles said:
That just makes you selectively promiscuous, not hypocritical surely?Foxy said:
I am sure other companies are just as cavalier with personal information. We live in the Panopticon nowadays.Charles said:
Why hypocritical?Foxy said:
The real damage to Facebook is reputational. I hardly use it now, and log out when not using so that it stops tracing. Hypocritical of course as I use Twitter, Google etcDecrepitJohnL said:
Testing (and even thinking very hard) has rather gone out of fashion in the computer biz. Launch something that mostly works (minimum viable product) then fix it as the bug reports come in (or don't fix it because the team has moved on to something else). Move fast and break things, as Facebook used to say. Agile. There is no parallel with the government's approach to Brexit -- publish red lines then change them almost randomly as the EU rejects each one.rcs1000 said:Death constitutes a breach of PayPal's terms of service :
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44783779
Talking of Facebook, I see they face a £500,000 fine over the Cambridge Analytica data breaches, representing 18 minutes' profit.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/11/ico_fine_facebook_cambridge_analytica/
As a consumer you are making a choice
It’s not like you are evangelising the use of Facebook while avoiding it yourself
As a user, I am the product, the consumer is the one who pays.0 -
That certainly would be the most sensible thing to try and do as soon as possible, given the mess and the limited time.TOPPING said:
- extend Article 50 by 2-5 years.williamglenn said:
As we head to the endgame there will be essentially three possible options:rottenborough said:Even if it does it wont win. There's a reason Brexiteers are terrified of a 2nd referendum.
They have been found out by enough people to tip the balance next time. It'll still be close, but the other way.
- Revoke Article 50
- Ratify the Withdrawal Agreement
- No Deal
Over the next three months, my assumption is that those trashing Chequers and arguing for No Deal will drive public opinion not towards the third option but towards the first.0 -
True, but I think that option only comes into view if there is no agreement on the Withdrawal Agreement. Having formed a coherent UK position on the future relationship that only happens now if the EU refuses to fudge it sufficiently. I think May's done enough to avoid that.TOPPING said:
- extend Article 50 by 2-5 years.williamglenn said:
As we head to the endgame there will be essentially three possible options:rottenborough said:Even if it does it wont win. There's a reason Brexiteers are terrified of a 2nd referendum.
They have been found out by enough people to tip the balance next time. It'll still be close, but the other way.
- Revoke Article 50
- Ratify the Withdrawal Agreement
- No Deal
Over the next three months, my assumption is that those trashing Chequers and arguing for No Deal will drive public opinion not towards the third option but towards the first.0 -
Unfortunately I am not talking about what I think should happen, I am talking about what has happened and why that rules out certain courses of action. The mere fact that there are too many people, starting with the PM and the EUC, right down to the humble and traumatised William, who do not wish to face the reality we're in and deal with it is an issue but doesn't alter either the past or the facts.edmundintokyo said:
We're talking about what it would take to get a vote through parliament, and that depends on what MPs think should happen, not what you think should happen.ydoethur said:
Well, I don't know whether you noticed but a couple of years ago we had a referendum in which people voted to Leave. Parliament then also voted to leave.
So we are leaving and the question is on what terms. That would be what a second referendum would be about, and why it would be as pointless and potentially damaging as trying to explain the mechanics of good teaching to an OFSTED inspector.0 -
Yes but when has any of this been sensiblerottenborough said:
That certainly would be the most sensible thing to try and do as soon as possible, given the mess and the limited time.TOPPING said:
- extend Article 50 by 2-5 years.williamglenn said:
As we head to the endgame there will be essentially three possible options:rottenborough said:Even if it does it wont win. There's a reason Brexiteers are terrified of a 2nd referendum.
They have been found out by enough people to tip the balance next time. It'll still be close, but the other way.
- Revoke Article 50
- Ratify the Withdrawal Agreement
- No Deal
Over the next three months, my assumption is that those trashing Chequers and arguing for No Deal will drive public opinion not towards the third option but towards the first.0 -
Brexit is not an unstoppable force of nature but a legal process that can be stopped - by mutual consent, certainly, and possibly unilaterally too but that theory probably wouldn't need to be tested.ydoethur said:
Unfortunately I am not talking about what I think should happen, I am talking about what has happened and why that rules out certain courses of action. The mere fact that there are too many people, starting with the PM and the EUC, right down to the humble and traumatised William, who do not wish to face the reality we're in and deal with it is an issue but doesn't alter either the past or the facts.edmundintokyo said:
We're talking about what it would take to get a vote through parliament, and that depends on what MPs think should happen, not what you think should happen.ydoethur said:
Well, I don't know whether you noticed but a couple of years ago we had a referendum in which people voted to Leave. Parliament then also voted to leave.
So we are leaving and the question is on what terms. That would be what a second referendum would be about, and why it would be as pointless and potentially damaging as trying to explain the mechanics of good teaching to an OFSTED inspector.0 -
If they riot, they should be treated as any other rioter.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Re your last sentence - Do you want people rioting on the streetswilliamglenn said:
Once May has announced it, I think the political pressure on Labour MPs to back it would be overwhelming. If Corbyn tried to block it to force a GE instead it would to seen to be such a cynical move it would destroy the Labour party.edmundintokyo said:
True, but I wonder if it isn't actually easier for the opposition members, especially Remainiac Lab, if it looks like they're forcing the concession. It's not generally a great look for opposition MPs to be saving the government, so they're better off with a setup of "Tory disunity let us extract this concession" rather than "The government wanted to do this, and we threw them a lifeline when they were drowning".williamglenn said:
Knowing this, if May wants to look strong and in control she will preempt them and announce that she wants to put it to the people before they have chance to hold her to ransom.edmundintokyo said:
Threaten that if they don't give her the votes she needs, she'll have no option but to do a deal with LD+SNP+Remaniac-Lab, who will require a re-referendum as the price of their support.Gardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
Please don't throw me into the briar patch etc etc.
I also wonder if there isn't a loophole hidden in the Henry VIII powers to allow the government to bypass parliament on this.0 -
I think it would suit the EU for several reasons even if they were minded to fudge.williamglenn said:
True, but I think that option only comes into view if there is no agreement on the Withdrawal Agreement. Having formed a coherent UK position on the future relationship that only happens now if the EU refuses to fudge it sufficiently. I think May's done enough to avoid that.TOPPING said:
- extend Article 50 by 2-5 years.williamglenn said:
As we head to the endgame there will be essentially three possible options:rottenborough said:Even if it does it wont win. There's a reason Brexiteers are terrified of a 2nd referendum.
They have been found out by enough people to tip the balance next time. It'll still be close, but the other way.
- Revoke Article 50
- Ratify the Withdrawal Agreement
- No Deal
Over the next three months, my assumption is that those trashing Chequers and arguing for No Deal will drive public opinion not towards the third option but towards the first.0 -
It doesn't rule anything out, parliament can do what it likes. You may think it *should* rule things out, but that's not the same thing.ydoethur said:
Unfortunately I am not talking about what I think should happen, I am talking about what has happened and why that rules out certain courses of action. The mere fact that there are too many people, starting with the PM and the EUC, right down to the humble and traumatised William, who do not wish to face the reality we're in and deal with it is an issue but doesn't alter either the past or the facts.edmundintokyo said:
We're talking about what it would take to get a vote through parliament, and that depends on what MPs think should happen, not what you think should happen.ydoethur said:
Well, I don't know whether you noticed but a couple of years ago we had a referendum in which people voted to Leave. Parliament then also voted to leave.
So we are leaving and the question is on what terms. That would be what a second referendum would be about, and why it would be as pointless and potentially damaging as trying to explain the mechanics of good teaching to an OFSTED inspector.0 -
You mean, they will be left in peace to get on with it?matt said:
If they riot, they should be treated as any other rioter.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Re your last sentence - Do you want people rioting on the streetswilliamglenn said:
Once May has announced it, I think the political pressure on Labour MPs to back it would be overwhelming. If Corbyn tried to block it to force a GE instead it would to seen to be such a cynical move it would destroy the Labour party.edmundintokyo said:
True, but I wonder if it isn't actually easier for the opposition members, especially Remainiac Lab, if it looks like they're forcing the concession. It's not generally a great look for opposition MPs to be saving the government, so they're better off with a setup of "Tory disunity let us extract this concession" rather than "The government wanted to do this, and we threw them a lifeline when they were drowning".williamglenn said:
Knowing this, if May wants to look strong and in control she will preempt them and announce that she wants to put it to the people before they have chance to hold her to ransom.edmundintokyo said:
Threaten that if they don't give her the votes she needs, she'll have no option but to do a deal with LD+SNP+Remaniac-Lab, who will require a re-referendum as the price of their support.Gardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
Please don't throw me into the briar patch etc etc.
I also wonder if there isn't a loophole hidden in the Henry VIII powers to allow the government to bypass parliament on this.0 -
FOOOOT
BORRRRRRRRL-1 -
Of course but why would a goverment even consider by passing democracy as William has suggestedmatt said:
If they riot, they should be treated as any other rioter.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Re your last sentence - Do you want people rioting on the streetswilliamglenn said:
Once May has announced it, I think the political pressure on Labour MPs to back it would be overwhelming. If Corbyn tried to block it to force a GE instead it would to seen to be such a cynical move it would destroy the Labour party.edmundintokyo said:
True, but I wonder if it isn't actually easier for the opposition members, especially Remainiac Lab, if it looks like they're forcing the concession. It's not generally a great look for opposition MPs to be saving the government, so they're better off with a setup of "Tory disunity let us extract this concession" rather than "The government wanted to do this, and we threw them a lifeline when they were drowning".williamglenn said:
Knowing this, if May wants to look strong and in control she will preempt them and announce that she wants to put it to the people before they have chance to hold her to ransom.edmundintokyo said:
Threaten that if they don't give her the votes she needs, she'll have no option but to do a deal with LD+SNP+Remaniac-Lab, who will require a re-referendum as the price of their support.Gardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
Please don't throw me into the briar patch etc etc.
I also wonder if there isn't a loophole hidden in the Henry VIII powers to allow the government to bypass parliament on this.0 -
Glenn descends in to fascismwilliamglenn said:
Brexit is not an unstoppable force of nature but a legal process that can be stopped - by mutual consent, certainly, and possibly unilaterally too but that theory probably wouldn't need to be tested.ydoethur said:
Unfortunately I am not talking about what I think should happen, I am talking about what has happened and why that rules out certain courses of action. The mere fact that there are too many people, starting with the PM and the EUC, right down to the humble and traumatised William, who do not wish to face the reality we're in and deal with it is an issue but doesn't alter either the past or the facts.edmundintokyo said:
We're talking about what it would take to get a vote through parliament, and that depends on what MPs think should happen, not what you think should happen.ydoethur said:
Well, I don't know whether you noticed but a couple of years ago we had a referendum in which people voted to Leave. Parliament then also voted to leave.
So we are leaving and the question is on what terms. That would be what a second referendum would be about, and why it would be as pointless and potentially damaging as trying to explain the mechanics of good teaching to an OFSTED inspector.0 -
Not really. It wouldn't describe the mess the Labour party is in, either. But it is an excellent guidebook for anyone clever who wants to create a con (not that I think Holmes wanted to create one at first), and some warning signs to look for in sick companies.Foxy said:
Sounds like an Allegory for the May government.
But as Charles said in a post the other week: the amazing thing is the way the great and good bought into the charade, for instance Kissinger and Murdoch (though Murdoch comes out generally well in the story). A bunch of old rich fools saying that as other old rich fools were involved, it must be legit. How can the plebs complaining be telling the truth when so many good, influential people were on the board ...
I can highly recommend the book: it's very well written, and fortunately is not too technical (perhaps because Theranos failed to develop anything particularly worth describing technically).0 -
The people voted for an easy Brexit with more NHS cash (without extra tax), and free owls. Who's offering that?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course but why would a goverment even consider by passing democracy as William has suggestedmatt said:
If they riot, they should be treated as any other rioter.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Re your last sentence - Do you want people rioting on the streetswilliamglenn said:
Once May has announced it, I think the political pressure on Labour MPs to back it would be overwhelming. If Corbyn tried to block it to force a GE instead it would to seen to be such a cynical move it would destroy the Labour party.edmundintokyo said:
True, but I wonder if it isn't actually easier for the opposition members, especially Remainiac Lab, if it looks like they're forcing the concession. It's not generally a great look for opposition MPs to be saving the government, so they're better off with a setup of "Tory disunity let us extract this concession" rather than "The government wanted to do this, and we threw them a lifeline when they were drowning".williamglenn said:
Knowing this, if May wants to look strong and in control she will preempt them and announce that she wants to put it to the people before they have chance to hold her to ransom.edmundintokyo said:
Threaten that if they don't give her the votes she needs, she'll have no option but to do a deal with LD+SNP+Remaniac-Lab, who will require a re-referendum as the price of their support.Gardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
Please don't throw me into the briar patch etc etc.
I also wonder if there isn't a loophole hidden in the Henry VIII powers to allow the government to bypass parliament on this.0 -
Parliament can do anything it likes. For example it could reintroduce slavery or pass a law banning ginger hair.edmundintokyo said:
It doesn't rule anything out, parliament can do what it likes. You may think it *should* rule things out, but that's not the same thing.ydoethur said:
Unfortunately I am not talking about what I think should happen, I am talking about what has happened and why that rules out certain courses of action. The mere fact that there are too many people, starting with the PM and the EUC, right down to the humble and traumatised William, who do not wish to face the reality we're in and deal with it is an issue but doesn't alter either the past or the facts.edmundintokyo said:
We're talking about what it would take to get a vote through parliament, and that depends on what MPs think should happen, not what you think should happen.ydoethur said:
Well, I don't know whether you noticed but a couple of years ago we had a referendum in which people voted to Leave. Parliament then also voted to leave.
So we are leaving and the question is on what terms. That would be what a second referendum would be about, and why it would be as pointless and potentially damaging as trying to explain the mechanics of good teaching to an OFSTED inspector.
Does that mean it will? No.
Unfortunately recent events have rendered a 'Remain or soft Brexit' referendum almost as impossible as appointing a Nazi as Minister of Equalities (although I observe Labour hasn't noticed this). Leave with no deal would have to be on the ballot paper. There are too many MPs with Leave voting seats, quite apart from the head-bangers, who would be at risk otherwise.0 -
Thanks all for answering my question.
With Boris on manoeuvres, I cannot see the hard Brexiters supporting any deal May is able to put to Parliament.
She therefore needs support from the Opposition benches.
Since Corbyn above all wants to trigger an election, I do not think he can support the vote. The ERGers will give him cover, since there will continue to be an illusion of a “better Brexit”.
Therefore, May needs Labour rebels.
The only thing she has to offer is another referendum.
I am inclined to agree with William Glen that there is perfect neatness to this which may appeal to May’s clear psychological need to clear up the mess left by the overgrown schoolboys (Cameron, Osborne, Johnson).0 -
Boris apparentlyFreggles said:
The people voted for an easy Brexit with more NHS cash (without extra tax), and free owls. Who's offering that?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course but why would a goverment even consider by passing democracy as William has suggestedmatt said:
If they riot, they should be treated as any other rioter.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Re your last sentence - Do you want people rioting on the streetswilliamglenn said:
Once May has announced it, I think the political pressure on Labour MPs to back it would be overwhelming. If Corbyn tried to block it to force a GE instead it would to seen to be such a cynical move it would destroy the Labour party.edmundintokyo said:
True, but I wonder if it isn't actually easier for the opposition members, especially Remainiac Lab, if it looks like they're forcing the concession. It's not generally a great look for opposition MPs to be saving the government, so they're better off with a setup of "Tory disunity let us extract this concession" rather than "The government wanted to do this, and we threw them a lifeline when they were drowning".williamglenn said:
Knowing this, if May wants to look strong and in control she will preempt them and announce that she wants to put it to the people before they have chance to hold her to ransom.edmundintokyo said:
Threaten that if they don't give her the votes she needs, she'll have no option but to do a deal with LD+SNP+Remaniac-Lab, who will require a re-referendum as the price of their support.Gardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
Please don't throw me into the briar patch etc etc.
I also wonder if there isn't a loophole hidden in the Henry VIII powers to allow the government to bypass parliament on this.0 -
Anyway, if you will excuse me I have an early morning meeting.
I wish the company buenos dias.0 -
Now that you're moving to the country, you'll have plenty of game to live off.AlastairMeeks said:Good to see the current extent of aspirations of Leavers: the supermarkets will probably have food on the shelves. Not that the past sturdy pronouncements of Leavers mean that much faith can be put in those assurances.
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Well mays offering more money to the NHS, were heading for a soft Brexit and personally I already have owls in my gardenFreggles said:
The people voted for an easy Brexit with more NHS cash (without extra tax), and free owls. Who's offering that?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course but why would a goverment even consider by passing democracy as William has suggestedmatt said:
If they riot, they should be treated as any other rioter.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Re your last sentence - Do you want people rioting on the streetswilliamglenn said:
Once May has announced it, I think the political pressure on Labour MPs to back it would be overwhelming. If Corbyn tried to block it to force a GE instead it would to seen to be such a cynical move it would destroy the Labour party.edmundintokyo said:
True, but I wonder if it isn't actually easier for the opposition members, especially Remainiac Lab, if it looks like they're forcing the concession. It's not generally a great look for opposition MPs to be saving the government, so they're better off with a setup of "Tory disunity let us extract this concession" rather than "The government wanted to do this, and we threw them a lifeline when they were drowning".williamglenn said:
Knowing this, if May wants to look strong and in control she will preempt them and announce that she wants to put it to the people before they have chance to hold her to ransom.edmundintokyo said:
Threaten that if they don't give her the votes she needs, she'll have no option but to do a deal with LD+SNP+Remaniac-Lab, who will require a re-referendum as the price of their support.Gardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
Please don't throw me into the briar patch etc etc.
I also wonder if there isn't a loophole hidden in the Henry VIII powers to allow the government to bypass parliament on this.0 -
She's offering more money for the NHS *with* extra tax to pay for it.Alanbrooke said:
Well mays offering more money to the NHS, were heading for a soft Brexit and personally I already have owls in my gardenFreggles said:
The people voted for an easy Brexit with more NHS cash (without extra tax), and free owls. Who's offering that?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course but why would a goverment even consider by passing democracy as William has suggestedmatt said:
If they riot, they should be treated as any other rioter.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Re your last sentence - Do you want people rioting on the streetswilliamglenn said:
Once May has announced it, I think the political pressure on Labour MPs to back it would be overwhelming. If Corbyn tried to block it to force a GE instead it would to seen to be such a cynical move it would destroy the Labour party.edmundintokyo said:
True, but I wonder if it isn't actually easier for the opposition members, especially Remainiac Lab, if it looks like they're forcing the concession. It's not generally a great look for opposition MPs to be saving the government, so they're better off with a setup of "Tory disunity let us extract this concession" rather than "The government wanted to do this, and we threw them a lifeline when they were drowning".williamglenn said:
Knowing this, if May wants to look strong and in control she will preempt them and announce that she wants to put it to the people before they have chance to hold her to ransom.edmundintokyo said:
Threaten that if they don't give her the votes she needs, she'll have no option but to do a deal with LD+SNP+Remaniac-Lab, who will require a re-referendum as the price of their support.Gardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
Please don't throw me into the briar patch etc etc.
I also wonder if there isn't a loophole hidden in the Henry VIII powers to allow the government to bypass parliament on this.0 -
That's right. In general, most members don't want to deselect their Labour MPs. however, breaking the whip in order to save a Tory Goernment and facilitate EU withdrawal would be a near-guaranteed path to deselection.Dura_Ace said:
It won't be Labour who blocked it, it will have been the ERG faction of the tories. Labour don't owe May any favours, pity or mercy and it's not up to them to deliver the government's program in the HoC.ydoethur said:
Labour going to the country having blocked an attempt at soft Brexit and therefore forcing us to WTO, maugre the wishes of the overwhelming majority of their voters?0 -
There are no tanks in Baghdadwilliamglenn said:
As we head to the endgame there will be essentially three possible options:rottenborough said:Even if it does it wont win. There's a reason Brexiteers are terrified of a 2nd referendum.
They have been found out by enough people to tip the balance next time. It'll still be close, but the other way.
- Revoke Article 50
- Ratify the Withdrawal Agreement
- No Deal
Over the next three months, my assumption is that those trashing Chequers and arguing for No Deal will drive public opinion not towards the third option but towards the first.0 -
Yes but as I said before a second referendum could be a no deal disaster as the public want to rebel against the political elite. In my opinion TM's deal is the only chance of limiting the damage unless of course there is a backlash against the Brexiteers when the situation could change yet again.Gardenwalker said:Thanks all for answering my question.
With Boris on manoeuvres, I cannot see the hard Brexiters supporting any deal May is able to put to Parliament.
She therefore needs support from the Opposition benches.
Since Corbyn above all wants to trigger an election, I do not think he can support the vote. The ERGers will give him cover, since there will continue to be an illusion of a “better Brexit”.
Therefore, May needs Labour rebels.
The only thing she has to offer is another referendum.
I am inclined to agree with William Glen that there is perfect neatness to this which may appeal to May’s clear psychological need to clear up the mess left by the overgrown schoolboys (Cameron, Osborne, Johnson).
At least Airbus and business welcomed the moves yesterday0 -
Not sure that would work...rcs1000 said:
"honey, I didn't cheat on you, I was just selectively promiscuous"Charles said:
That just makes you selectively promiscuous, not hypocritical surely?Foxy said:
I am sure other companies are just as cavalier with personal information. We live in the Panopticon nowadays.Charles said:
Why hypocritical?Foxy said:
The real damage to Facebook is reputational. I hardly use it now, and log out when not using so that it stops tracing. Hypocritical of course as I use Twitter, Google etcDecrepitJohnL said:
Testing (and even thinking very hard) has rather gone out of fashion in the computer biz. Launch something that mostly works (minimum viable product) then fix it as the bug reports come in (or don't fix it because the team has moved on to something else). Move fast and break things, as Facebook used to say. Agile. There is no parallel with the government's approach to Brexit -- publish red lines then change them almost randomly as the EU rejects each one.rcs1000 said:Death constitutes a breach of PayPal's terms of service :
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44783779
Talking of Facebook, I see they face a £500,000 fine over the Cambridge Analytica data breaches, representing 18 minutes' profit.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/11/ico_fine_facebook_cambridge_analytica/
As a consumer you are making a choice
It’s not like you are evangelising the use of Facebook while avoiding it yourself
As a user, I am the product, the consumer is the one who pays.0 -
Indeed, I think May will survive at least a year or two post Brexit and into the transition period.
When Brown took over as PM there was also no general election for 3 years and when Major took over no general election for almost 2 years.0 -
Incidentally, someone here tipped Mbappe as Golden Ball (best player) of the Tournament. That was at around 5 or 4.7. Can be laid now at just over evens, for those interested.
I've also backed England to reach the final, just enough to cover my Croatia stake.0 -
O/T: for internationalists like me, a thoughtful piece on why we should be careful:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/11/central-europe-lesson-liberals-anti-nationalist-yugoslavia-poland-hungary
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It was only 52% Leave, and small proportion of those who get *really* upset at this are lost to the Tories if a deal goes through. Government + sundry opposition easily have the numbers.ydoethur said:Parliament can do anything it likes. For example it could reintroduce slavery or pass a law banning ginger hair.
Does that mean it will? No.
Unfortunately recent events have rendered a 'Remain or soft Brexit' referendum almost as impossible as appointing a Nazi as Minister of Equalities (although I observe Labour hasn't noticed this). Leave with no deal would have to be on the ballot paper. There are too many MPs with Leave voting seats, quite apart from the head-bangers, who would be at risk otherwise.
But if the voters *really, really* wanted no-deal to be on the ballot paper then I suppose Mrs May could oblige.
What should Britain do? Vote only once by putting a cross [ X ] in the box next to your choice.
[ ] Leave the European Union without a deal
[ ] Leave the European Union, accepting the deal negotiated by the government.
[ ] Remain in the European Union
0 -
Only with the consent of Parliament as Parliament and statute are supreme under pur constitution and legal system.williamglenn said:
Brexit is not an unstoppable force of nature but a legal process that can be stopped - by mutual consent, certainly, and possibly unilaterally too but that theory probably wouldn't need to be tested.ydoethur said:
Unfortunately I am not talking about what I think should happen, I am talking about what has happened and why that rules out certain courses of action. The mere fact that there are too many people, starting with the PM and the EUC, right down to the humble and traumatised William, who do not wish to face the reality we're in and deal with it is an issue but doesn't alter either the past or the facts.edmundintokyo said:
We're talking about what it would take to get a vote through parliament, and that depends on what MPs think should happen, not what you think should happen.ydoethur said:
Well, I don't know whether you noticed but a couple of years ago we had a referendum in which people voted to Leave. Parliament then also voted to leave.
So we are leaving and the question is on what terms. That would be what a second referendum would be about, and why it would be as pointless and potentially damaging as trying to explain the mechanics of good teaching to an OFSTED inspector.
Plus 408 out of 650 House of Commons constituencies voted Leave0 -
This is clearly some new meaning of the word "impossible" that I was previously unaware of.Foxy said:
If there is a second referendum (unlikely++!) it would be impossible to not have Remain as a choice.ydoethur said:
I think the hope is that it would be 'Remain.'Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Glenn, but what would option two be?
Remain, or leave with no deal?
The reality is it would be 'leave with no deal,' which is why I remain opposed to a second referendum.0 -
It's called forward planning.Sean_F said:
Now that you're moving to the country, you'll have plenty of game to live off.AlastairMeeks said:Good to see the current extent of aspirations of Leavers: the supermarkets will probably have food on the shelves. Not that the past sturdy pronouncements of Leavers mean that much faith can be put in those assurances.
0 -
As a matter of interest what is your take on the present position in the partyHYUFD said:Indeed, I think May will survive at least a year or two post Brexit and into the transition period.
When Brown took over as PM there was also no general election for 3 years and when Major took over no general election for almost 2 years.0 -
Seven.Charles said:
How many principled Labour MPs are there?ydoethur said:
Hmmm.Dura_Ace said:
It won't be Labour who blocked it, it will have been the ERG faction of the tories. Labour don't owe May any favours, pity or mercy and it's not up to them to deliver the government's program in the HoC.ydoethur said:
Labour going to the country having blocked an attempt at soft Brexit and therefore forcing us to WTO, maugre the wishes of the overwhelming majority of their voters?
I am not sure their voters will quite see it that way.
Or to put it another way, they will see Labour siding with the ERG to deliver a hard Brexit.
Now that might suit Corbyn but I think there might be awkward conversations about it elsewhere with sane MPs and candidates.
I also do think there will be a number of Labour MPs sufficiently alarmed at this situation to wave through a deal. There are two groups who will support it:
1) Pragamatists. Their calculation will be otherwise the government splits, falls, they come in and the first thing they have to deal with is economic meltdown caused by no-deal for which they will get the blame.
2) Principled. They will vote because they believe if we can't stay in the EU we must stay as close as possible.0 -
Why would they? Corbyn could be PM if the Gov collapses and all he needs to do is spout some vague pablum about how he could have done better. They will want no responsibility for this.not_on_fire said:
She will if Labour supports the dealGardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.0 -
Considering that PB Remainers were claiming last summer that people would now be actually starving as the food banks emptied its easy to see who's been proved wrong.AlastairMeeks said:Good to see the current extent of aspirations of Leavers: the supermarkets will probably have food on the shelves. Not that the past sturdy pronouncements of Leavers mean that much faith can be put in those assurances.
Not to mention another PBer who thought there were no strawberries in the supermarkets last month.0 -
kle4 said:
Why would they? Corbyn could be PM if the Gov collapses and all he needs to do is spout some vague pablum about how he could have done better.not_on_fire said:
She will if Labour supports the dealGardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
If Corbyn is seen to put his narrow party interest against the National interest in an issue as huge as this is he could pay a very heavy price at the pollskle4 said:
Why would they? Corbyn could be PM if the Gov collapses and all he needs to do is spout some vague pablum about how he could have done better.not_on_fire said:
She will if Labour supports the dealGardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.0 -
I think this is a point the "No Dealers" have not fully appreciated. Yet.
https://twitter.com/gabyhinsliff/status/10169340854769704970 -
Ha ha, the Trump haters are trying to get everyone to buy Green Day’s ‘American Idiot’, to get it to number one as Trump arrives in the U.K. on Friday.
Its midweek chart position: 18.
Midweek number one? Three Lions!0 -
No Corbyn could not be PM if the Gov collapses without the DUP behind him and on current polls without the SNP and probably the LDs too.kle4 said:
Why would they? Corbyn could be PM if the Gov collapses and all he needs to do is spout some vague pablum about how he could have done better. They will want no responsibility for this.not_on_fire said:
She will if Labour supports the dealGardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
Indeed any new election would likely see a revived UKIP under Farage added to the mix who could win a number of seats Labour and Tory with Leave votes over say 65%0 -
Citation needed for either of those assertions.another_richard said:
Considering that PB Remainers were claiming last summer that people would now be actually starving as the food banks emptied its easy to see who's been proved wrong.AlastairMeeks said:Good to see the current extent of aspirations of Leavers: the supermarkets will probably have food on the shelves. Not that the past sturdy pronouncements of Leavers mean that much faith can be put in those assurances.
Not to mention another PBer who thought there were no strawberries in the supermarkets last month.
PB Leavers have a long track record of making up claims about what their opponents said and then believing their own falsehoods.0 -
I back May for now to get a transition deal from the EU but by the next general election I want Boris or Javid to lead the partyBig_G_NorthWales said:
As a matter of interest what is your take on the present position in the partyHYUFD said:Indeed, I think May will survive at least a year or two post Brexit and into the transition period.
When Brown took over as PM there was also no general election for 3 years and when Major took over no general election for almost 2 years.0 -
Focus now turning to Trump at NATO as he rips into them over funding, and he is not joking. Lots of worried looks but on this I agree with him0
-
-
Perhaps May should have been making these kinds of plans and leaking them for months.Scott_P said:I think this is a point the "No Dealers" have not fully appreciated. Yet.
https://twitter.com/gabyhinsliff/status/1016934085476970497
0 -
Also, nobody ever claimed the ERG were the brightest bunch, but is publicising your timetable for insurrection a good idea?
https://twitter.com/TheHirstComment/status/10169404910222336000 -
Once again the Brexiteers can't decide what they want:
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/10169408132244643840 -
Upon careful consideration, I've decided not to test it.Charles said:
Not sure that would work...rcs1000 said:
"honey, I didn't cheat on you, I was just selectively promiscuous"Charles said:
That just makes you selectively promiscuous, not hypocritical surely?Foxy said:
I am sure other companies are just as cavalier with personal information. We live in the Panopticon nowadays.Charles said:
Why hypocritical?Foxy said:
The real damage to Facebook is reputational. I hardly use it now, and log out when not using so that it stops tracing. Hypocritical of course as I use Twitter, Google etcDecrepitJohnL said:
Testing (and even thinking very hard) has rather gone out of fashion in the computer biz. Launch something that mostly works (minimum viable product) then fix it as the bug reports come in (or don't fix it because the team has moved on to something else). Move fast and break things, as Facebook used to say. Agile. There is no parallel with the government's approach to Brexit -- publish red lines then change them almost randomly as the EU rejects each one.rcs1000 said:Death constitutes a breach of PayPal's terms of service :
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44783779
Talking of Facebook, I see they face a £500,000 fine over the Cambridge Analytica data breaches, representing 18 minutes' profit.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/11/ico_fine_facebook_cambridge_analytica/
As a consumer you are making a choice
It’s not like you are evangelising the use of Facebook while avoiding it yourself
As a user, I am the product, the consumer is the one who pays.0 -
Mr. Tokyo, a three option referendum would be... potentially terrible. If the 'winning' option has under 50%, as seems likely, it makes the mandate questionable at best. Plus, there are two leave options. If we stay in, it'll be argued, legitimately, that the ballot paper was designed to split the leave vote and unify the remain vote. If we go for the deal (the middle option) it could be argued that the ballot paper was designed to deliver to middle option as there's a bias, in odd-numbered multiple choice surveys, towards the middle (the not too hot, not too cold slant).
0 -
chortleAlastairMeeks said:
Citation needed for either of those assertions.another_richard said:
Considering that PB Remainers were claiming last summer that people would now be actually starving as the food banks emptied its easy to see who's been proved wrong.AlastairMeeks said:Good to see the current extent of aspirations of Leavers: the supermarkets will probably have food on the shelves. Not that the past sturdy pronouncements of Leavers mean that much faith can be put in those assurances.
Not to mention another PBer who thought there were no strawberries in the supermarkets last month.
PB Leavers have a long track record of making up claims about what their opponents said and then believing their own falsehoods.
I take it there are no mirrors in your house ?0 -
edmundintokyo said:
The way out of this, for the majority of MP's who would prefer the UK to remain in the EU, but who want to respect that the final decision has to be made by the voters is to have those three options on the ballot paper, but to operate it by AV. there will be enough remainers to ensure that the Remain option gets to the final run-off and enough who will say that if we are going to be saddled with BINO, we might as well remain.ydoethur said:
What should Britain do? Vote only once by putting a cross [ X ] in the box next to your choice.
[ ] Leave the European Union without a deal
[ ] Leave the European Union, accepting the deal negotiated by the government.
[ ] Remain in the European Union0 -
Except that the refefendum would be accept the deal or Remain.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes but as I said before a second referendum could be a no deal disaster as the public want to rebel against the political elite. In my opinion TM's deal is the only chance of limiting the damage unless of course there is a backlash against the Brexiteers when the situation could change yet again.Gardenwalker said:Thanks all for answering my question.
With Boris on manoeuvres, I cannot see the hard Brexiters supporting any deal May is able to put to Parliament.
She therefore needs support from the Opposition benches.
Since Corbyn above all wants to trigger an election, I do not think he can support the vote. The ERGers will give him cover, since there will continue to be an illusion of a “better Brexit”.
Therefore, May needs Labour rebels.
The only thing she has to offer is another referendum.
I am inclined to agree with William Glen that there is perfect neatness to this which may appeal to May’s clear psychological need to clear up the mess left by the overgrown schoolboys (Cameron, Osborne, Johnson).
At least Airbus and business welcomed the moves yesterday
No deal would be off the table, since the vote would be carried by the government, ie Parliament would vote to approve the Deal, subject to the consent of the public.
The no dealers, (implicitly, ERG + Corbynists + SNP) would be outvoted.
In the meantime, May will be indeed be stepping up prep for a no deal to show just fucking bonkers it is. Watch out for more powdered egg stories.0 -
Holding the vote under AV would solve all these problems.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Tokyo, a three option referendum would be... potentially terrible. If the 'winning' option has under 50%, as seems likely, it makes the mandate questionable at best. Plus, there are two leave options. If we stay in, it'll be argued, legitimately, that the ballot paper was designed to split the leave vote and unify the remain vote. If we go for the deal (the middle option) it could be argued that the ballot paper was designed to deliver to middle option as there's a bias, in odd-numbered multiple choice surveys, towards the middle (the not too hot, not too cold slant).
0 -
We are nearly on the same page apart from Boris who is persona non grata to meHYUFD said:
I back May for now to get a transition deal from the EU but by the next general election I want Boris or Javid to lead the partyBig_G_NorthWales said:
As a matter of interest what is your take on the present position in the partyHYUFD said:Indeed, I think May will survive at least a year or two post Brexit and into the transition period.
When Brown took over as PM there was also no general election for 3 years and when Major took over no general election for almost 2 years.0 -
I don't think that's how it woukd be seen by most, fairly or not. Governments take the biggest hit.Big_G_NorthWales said:kle4 said:
Why would they? Corbyn could be PM if the Gov collapses and all he needs to do is spout some vague pablum about how he could have done better.not_on_fire said:
She will if Labour supports the dealGardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
If Corbyn is seen to put his narrow party interest against the National interest in an issue as huge as this is he could pay a very heavy price at the pollskle4 said:
Why would they? Corbyn could be PM if the Gov collapses and all he needs to do is spout some vague pablum about how he could have done better.not_on_fire said:
She will if Labour supports the dealGardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.0 -
I agree, objectively it's a terrible idea and smells of rat-fuckery. I only mentioned it because people up-thread were insisting the voters should get the chance to vote for no-deal.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Tokyo, a three option referendum would be... potentially terrible. If the 'winning' option has under 50%, as seems likely, it makes the mandate questionable at best. Plus, there are two leave options. If we stay in, it'll be argued, legitimately, that the ballot paper was designed to split the leave vote and unify the remain vote. If we go for the deal (the middle option) it could be argued that the ballot paper was designed to deliver to middle option as there's a bias, in odd-numbered multiple choice surveys, towards the middle (the not too hot, not too cold slant).
0 -
ROFLScott_P said:Also, nobody ever claimed the ERG were the brightest bunch, but is publicising your timetable for insurrection a good idea?
https://twitter.com/TheHirstComment/status/1016940491022233600
I admire your constant references to superior intellect. As a point of interest do you think the people who needlessly called a referendum and lost it to people they call thickos are cleverer than the supposed thickos ?0 -
Sounds like we are going to see a whole lot more of him, now he is back in the country (no more FO trips) and planning a bus tour.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly on the same page apart from Boris who is persona non grata to meHYUFD said:
I back May for now to get a transition deal from the EU but by the next general election I want Boris or Javid to lead the partyBig_G_NorthWales said:
As a matter of interest what is your take on the present position in the partyHYUFD said:Indeed, I think May will survive at least a year or two post Brexit and into the transition period.
When Brown took over as PM there was also no general election for 3 years and when Major took over no general election for almost 2 years.0 -
I think May would win a no confidence vote next week about 65% to 35% which would be enough to secure her position for at least a year or two and focus on getting that transition deal. However the rebel vote would be big enough to come back again later.Scott_P said:Also, nobody ever claimed the ERG were the brightest bunch, but is publicising your timetable for insurrection a good idea?
https://twitter.com/TheHirstComment/status/1016940491022233600
In Australia for example former PM Julia Gillard, not too dissimilar to May, beat Rudd 70% to 30% in a February 2012 ALP leadership spill but lost 55% to 45% about a year and a half later in June 20130 -
-
Is Theresa May a traitor?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/07/11/theresa-may-guilty-treason-plenty-readers-think-politicians/0 -
I think all but a handful of the ERG will vote with the government.Gardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
0 -
Threatening to block other Government legislation would work in terms of making life impossible for Mrs May. Even the most anti-Corbyn and Europhile Opposition MP will not hesitate to vote against the Government on unrelated legislation, such as the Budget. I'm sceptical about the threat, though.Scott_P said:Also, nobody ever claimed the ERG were the brightest bunch, but is publicising your timetable for insurrection a good idea?
https://twitter.com/TheHirstComment/status/10169404910222336000 -
Needless?Alanbrooke said:the people who needlessly called a referendum
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williamglenn said:
The country can't be held to ransom by people who would riot on the streets.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Re your last senrtence - Do you want people rioting on the streetswilliamglenn said:
Once May has announced it, I think the political pressure on Labour MPs to back it would be overwhelming. If Corbyn tried to block it to force a GE instead it would to seen to be such a cynical move it would destroy the Labour party.edmundintokyo said:
True, but I wonder if it isn't actually easier for the opposition members, especially Remainiac Lab, if it looks like they're forcing the concession. It's not generally a great look for opposition MPs to be saving the government, so they're better off with a setup of "Tory disunity let us extract this concession" rather than "The government wanted to do this, and we threw them a lifeline when they were drowning".williamglenn said:
Knowing this, if May wants to look strong and in control she will preempt them and announce that she wants to put it to the people before they have chance to hold her to ransom.edmundintokyo said:
Threaten that if they don't give her the votes she needs, she'll have no option but to do a deal with LD+SNP+Remaniac-Lab, who will require a re-referendum as the price of their support.Gardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
Please don't throw me into the briar patch etc etc.
I also wonder if there isn't a loophole hidden in the Henry VIII powers to allow the government to bypass parliament on this.
So Hard Border in Ireland then. Good.0 -
Just challenge her already. She cannot fudge her already fudged deal, and she has the ostensible backing of those remaining in her cabinet. The unwillingness of May and her opponents to recognise they cannot find a compromise and need to Duke it out has been a major issue. They don't want to be blamed for provoking an internal spat, but it's past time they settle it.Scott_P said:Also, nobody ever claimed the ERG were the brightest bunch, but is publicising your timetable for insurrection a good idea?
https://twitter.com/TheHirstComment/status/10169404910222336000 -
what if you don't want to accept the deal but still Leave and accept the conseuences?Gardenwalker said:
Except that the refefendum would be accept the deal or Remain.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes but as I said before a second referendum could be a no deal disaster as the public want to rebel against the political elite. In my opinion TM's deal is the only chance of limiting the damage unless of course there is a backlash against the Brexiteers when the situation could change yet again.Gardenwalker said:Thanks all for answering my question.
With Boris on manoeuvres, I cannot see the hard Brexiters supporting any deal May is able to put to Parliament.
She therefore needs support from the Opposition benches.
Since Corbyn above all wants to trigger an election, I do not think he can support the vote. The ERGers will give him cover, since there will continue to be an illusion of a “better Brexit”.
Therefore, May needs Labour rebels.
The only thing she has to offer is another referendum.
I am inclined to agree with William Glen that there is perfect neatness to this which may appeal to May’s clear psychological need to clear up the mess left by the overgrown schoolboys (Cameron, Osborne, Johnson).
At least Airbus and business welcomed the moves yesterday
No deal would be off the table, since the vote would be carried by the government, ie Parliament would vote to approve the Deal, subject to the consent of the public.
The no dealers, (implicitly, ERG + Corbynists + SNP) would be outvoted.
In the meantime, May will be indeed be stepping up prep for a no deal to show just fucking bonkers it is. Watch out for more powdered egg stories.
don't you get a choice ?0 -
volcanopete 03/08/17:AlastairMeeks said:
Citation needed for either of those assertions.another_richard said:
Considering that PB Remainers were claiming last summer that people would now be actually starving as the food banks emptied its easy to see who's been proved wrong.AlastairMeeks said:Good to see the current extent of aspirations of Leavers: the supermarkets will probably have food on the shelves. Not that the past sturdy pronouncements of Leavers mean that much faith can be put in those assurances.
Not to mention another PBer who thought there were no strawberries in the supermarkets last month.
PB Leavers have a long track record of making up claims about what their opponents said and then believing their own falsehoods.
' More evidence from the Bank of England today that the economy was "sluggish" which means the many are going to be worse off.This drip drip drip of austerity-inspired penury from a small crazed sect of small-staters will eke away at the Tories poll rating as each bill comes through the doors bigger than before.As the Foodbanks run out of food,I predict food riots too. '
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/08/03/leader-constitutional-expert-and-camerons-former-tutor-thinks-a-second-referendum-now-likely/#vanilla-comments
I don't have the time to track down any more right now but I'll let you have this as a bonus:
' In the meantime, Britain’s Standard & Poors credit rating has dropped two notches, the pound has suffered its biggest fall in one day against the dollar ever, markets around the world have crashed and recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals. '
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/29/alistair-meeks-on-the-political-and-economic-crises-of-breathtaking-proportions/0 -
Can't see the military threat in Europe. He wants to pull out some troops? Spend less on new weapons? Fine.Big_G_NorthWales said:Focus now turning to Trump at NATO as he rips into them over funding, and he is not joking. Lots of worried looks but on this I agree with him
0 -
Who the fuck is left on "Team Boris" at this point?rottenborough said: Once again the Brexiteers can't decide what they want:
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/10169408132244643840 -
Good to see the Remainers busy panicking today about which cunning scheme they can use to ignore the will of the people. What they are beginning to realise is that JRM's threat to vote down soft Brexit may very well work, because there is no reason why Labour would support the Government. Which is what I have been saying for months.
Of course, in all the scenarios they present (almost all of which involve the elite getting together and forcing their preferred option on the people) they miss the obvious one - that May or her replacement will have to go back to CETA as the solution.
As soon as May's plan has contact with the EU, they will demand more concessions and the events of the past few days show she cannot make them. So then we are looking at No Deal. And at that stage, hopefully wiser heads prevail and Boris and co will be busy pointing out that there is a perfectly obvious solution which would pass Parliament and not divide the people - CETA plus. With the added benefit that the useful idiot Varadkar will need to get thrown under the bus.0 -
That is plainly sillyGIN1138 said:0 -
Britain's all budgeted up until April, 2019, right? Aside from Brexit, is there anything else the government really, really needs to pass?NickPalmer said:
Threatening to block other Government legislation would work in terms of making life impossible for Mrs May. Even the most anti-Corbyn and Europhile Opposition MP will not hesitate to vote against the Government on unrelated legislation, such as the Budget. I'm sceptical about the threat, though.Scott_P said:Also, nobody ever claimed the ERG were the brightest bunch, but is publicising your timetable for insurrection a good idea?
https://twitter.com/TheHirstComment/status/10169404910222336000 -
Hoping for the best tonight as Croatia are ranked only 20th compared to our 12=, but so far, we've only played one team ranked higher than us (Belgium) and they beat us.
France are ranked 7th.
On lesser matters, the EU may eventually make vaguely encouraging but patronising noises about the Chequers deal, which will confirm they want more. It doesn't matter as that deal was only to show who is being flexible here, and it's not the EU. The more fanatical Remainers will cheer the EU on, but the others will see them as being obdurate.
As long as FOM is sacrosanct, it's all politicking anyway.0 -
lol, a man so clever he outsmarted himself.Scott_P said:
Needless?Alanbrooke said:the people who needlessly called a referendum
0 -
Brexit wrangling affects everything, of course that means defence cannot be finalised yet . The many allies who are not even close to funding nato as they are supposed to are in no position to complain even if the usa isScott_P said:0 -
So do I, but although there are worse offenders it is also true that the UKs capability has shrunk to an unacceptable level. If we had a real leader, we would be first out of the blocks agreeing with Trump and offering to up our game.Big_G_NorthWales said:Focus now turning to Trump at NATO as he rips into them over funding, and he is not joking. Lots of worried looks but on this I agree with him
But Theresa the appeaser will no doubt be supporting the Europeans. Bad move.0 -
Also the more Boris etc push the more likely it is that I will go full remainBig_G_NorthWales said:
That is plainly sillyGIN1138 said:0 -
I hope his delusions last long enough for this bus tour to come to fruition.Dura_Ace said:Who the fuck is left on "Team Boris" at this point?
0 -
Exactly. Iraq (Tory supported) and the 2018 financial crisis (before which Tories wanted more deregulation) are two obvious examples. The Tories foisted this whole escapade on us, and are now responsible for implementing the outcome; they are tied to it and its consequences.kle4 said:
I don't think that's how it woukd be seen by most, fairly or not. Governments take the biggest hit.Big_G_NorthWales said:kle4 said:
Why would they? Corbyn could be PM if the Gov collapses and all he needs to do is spout some vague pablum about how he could have done better.not_on_fire said:
She will if Labour supports the dealGardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.
If Corbyn is seen to put his narrow party interest against the National interest in an issue as huge as this is he could pay a very heavy price at the pollskle4 said:
Why would they? Corbyn could be PM if the Gov collapses and all he needs to do is spout some vague pablum about how he could have done better.not_on_fire said:
She will if Labour supports the dealGardenwalker said:Let’s assume we get to October on a river of Euro-fudge.
How is May going to win a “meaningful” vote in the Commons? She doesn’t have the numbers if the ERGers are determined to be bloody minded.0 -
+1Alanbrooke said:
chortleAlastairMeeks said:
Citation needed for either of those assertions.another_richard said:
Considering that PB Remainers were claiming last summer that people would now be actually starving as the food banks emptied its easy to see who's been proved wrong.AlastairMeeks said:Good to see the current extent of aspirations of Leavers: the supermarkets will probably have food on the shelves. Not that the past sturdy pronouncements of Leavers mean that much faith can be put in those assurances.
Not to mention another PBer who thought there were no strawberries in the supermarkets last month.
PB Leavers have a long track record of making up claims about what their opponents said and then believing their own falsehoods.
I take it there are no mirrors in your house ?0 -
Great claims require great evidence. Since that was a crap claim on your part, I suppose I'm going to have to accept crap evidence.another_richard said:
volcanopete 03/08/17:AlastairMeeks said:
Citation needed for either of those assertions.another_richard said:
Considering that PB Remainers were claiming last summer that people would now be actually starving as the food banks emptied its easy to see who's been proved wrong.AlastairMeeks said:Good to see the current extent of aspirations of Leavers: the supermarkets will probably have food on the shelves. Not that the past sturdy pronouncements of Leavers mean that much faith can be put in those assurances.
Not to mention another PBer who thought there were no strawberries in the supermarkets last month.
PB Leavers have a long track record of making up claims about what their opponents said and then believing their own falsehoods.
' More evidence from the Bank of England today that the economy was "sluggish" which means the many are going to be worse off.This drip drip drip of austerity-inspired penury from a small crazed sect of small-staters will eke away at the Tories poll rating as each bill comes through the doors bigger than before.As the Foodbanks run out of food,I predict food riots too. '
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/08/03/leader-constitutional-expert-and-camerons-former-tutor-thinks-a-second-referendum-now-likely/#vanilla-comments
I don't have the time to track down any more right now but I'll let you have this as a bonus:
' In the meantime, Britain’s Standard & Poors credit rating has dropped two notches, the pound has suffered its biggest fall in one day against the dollar ever, markets around the world have crashed and recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals. '
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/29/alistair-meeks-on-the-political-and-economic-crises-of-breathtaking-proportions/0 -
On rankings it should be England vs France final. But I think Croatia are going to be very hard to beat.CD13 said:Hoping for the best tonight as Croatia are ranked only 20th compared to our 12=, but so far, we've only played one team ranked higher than us (Belgium) and they beat us.
France are ranked 7th.
On lesser matters, the EU may eventually make vaguely encouraging but patronising noises about the Chequers deal, which will confirm they want more. It doesn't matter as that deal was only to show who is being flexible here, and it's not the EU. The more fanatical Remainers will cheer the EU on, but the others will see them as being obdurate.
As long as FOM is sacrosanct, it's all politicking anyway.
Happily, I'm all green. So my wallet at least can relax.0 -
No. Because there is no available majority in Parliament for it.Alanbrooke said:
what if you don't want to accept the deal but still Leave and accept the conseuences?Gardenwalker said:
Except that the refefendum would be accept the deal or Remain.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes but as I said before a second referendum could be a no deal disaster as the public want to rebel against the political elite. In my opinion TM's deal is the only chance of limiting the damage unless of course there is a backlash against the Brexiteers when the situation could change yet again.Gardenwalker said:Thanks all for answering my question.
With Boris on manoeuvres, I cannot see the hard Brexiters supporting any deal May is able to put to Parliament.
She therefore needs support from the Opposition benches.
Since Corbyn above all wants to trigger an election, I do not think he can support the vote. The ERGers will give him cover, since there will continue to be an illusion of a “better Brexit”.
Therefore, May needs Labour rebels.
The only thing she has to offer is another referendum.
I am inclined to agree with William Glen that there is perfect neatness to this which may appeal to May’s clear psychological need to clear up the mess left by the overgrown schoolboys (Cameron, Osborne, Johnson).
At least Airbus and business welcomed the moves yesterday
No deal would be off the table, since the vote would be carried by the government, ie Parliament would vote to approve the Deal, subject to the consent of the public.
The no dealers, (implicitly, ERG + Corbynists + SNP) would be outvoted.
In the meantime, May will be indeed be stepping up prep for a no deal to show just fucking bonkers it is. Watch out for more powdered egg stories.
don't you get a choice ?
And because it’s also fucking demented.
I have some sympathy with Leavers in that there *was* (and I guess potentially still is) a non disastrous path to Leave. However it required:
- Not exercising A50 straight away
- Exiting via EEA for a period, which meant conceding FOM for quite a long time (eg 10 years)
- Being honest with the British public about what Leaving entails, including trade offs.
All of the above were sadly beyond the Brexit leadership, who opted for a policy of cake-ism,
egged on by the foam-speckled support of the Mail and the Telegraph.0 -
WTF are you talking about?Alanbrooke said:lol, a man so clever he outsmarted himself.
You think the referendum was needless. You were quite happy with the status quo.
That seems at odds with many of your posts...0 -
I doubt that;s it. He wants more troops and weapons but to base them in the Pacific.NickPalmer said:
Can't see the military threat in Europe. He wants to pull out some troops? Spend less on new weapons? Fine.Big_G_NorthWales said:Focus now turning to Trump at NATO as he rips into them over funding, and he is not joking. Lots of worried looks but on this I agree with him
0 -
Right, got to go out for a few hours now.
Let's try not to bring the government down whilst I'm busy.
I wouldn't want to miss it.0 -
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If we all listen carefully we can hear you grinding your teeth.AlastairMeeks said:
Great claims require great evidence. Since that was a crap claim on your part, I suppose I'm going to have to accept crap evidence.another_richard said:
volcanopete 03/08/17:AlastairMeeks said:
Citation needed for either of those assertions.another_richard said:
Considering that PB Remainers were claiming last summer that people would now be actually starving as the food banks emptied its easy to see who's been proved wrong.AlastairMeeks said:Good to see the current extent of aspirations of Leavers: the supermarkets will probably have food on the shelves. Not that the past sturdy pronouncements of Leavers mean that much faith can be put in those assurances.
Not to mention another PBer who thought there were no strawberries in the supermarkets last month.
PB Leavers have a long track record of making up claims about what their opponents said and then believing their own falsehoods.
' More evidence from the Bank of England today that the economy was "sluggish" which means the many are going to be worse off.This drip drip drip of austerity-inspired penury from a small crazed sect of small-staters will eke away at the Tories poll rating as each bill comes through the doors bigger than before.As the Foodbanks run out of food,I predict food riots too. '
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/08/03/leader-constitutional-expert-and-camerons-former-tutor-thinks-a-second-referendum-now-likely/#vanilla-comments
I don't have the time to track down any more right now but I'll let you have this as a bonus:
' In the meantime, Britain’s Standard & Poors credit rating has dropped two notches, the pound has suffered its biggest fall in one day against the dollar ever, markets around the world have crashed and recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals. '
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/29/alistair-meeks-on-the-political-and-economic-crises-of-breathtaking-proportions/
Have a good day AM.0 -
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That sounds sensible, but from the rebels' point of view, the longer this goes on the less she can fudge, and that makes their position stronger.kle4 said:
Just challenge her already. She cannot fudge her already fudged deal, and she has the ostensible backing of those remaining in her cabinet. The unwillingness of May and her opponents to recognise they cannot find a compromise and need to Duke it out has been a major issue. They don't want to be blamed for provoking an internal spat, but it's past time they settle it.Scott_P said:Also, nobody ever claimed the ERG were the brightest bunch, but is publicising your timetable for insurrection a good idea?
https://twitter.com/TheHirstComment/status/1016940491022233600
OTOH, as it gets closer to the deadline MPs will get more nervous a leadership election crashing them into the deadline.
I'm not sure exactly where the curve peaks for the rebels but it might be a little bit longer.0 -
I'm afraid that far too many people feel that it is acceptable to talk in such terms. There's a direct continuum from such claims to far right extremists who plot terrorist attacks. But far too many who claim to be mainstream have no interest in taking any responsibility for dousing down the fires of the extremists, preferring to stoke them up.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is plainly sillyGIN1138 said:0
