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When I was predicting resignations on Friday I did suggest that any circling of the wagons would either put him out completely or bring him in to the centre, the latter of which seemed the more likely. I half expected him to get DexEU after Sunday.AlastairMeeks said:Is there any significance to the immobility of Michael Gove?
My guess is that despite his performance at the weekend May doesn't fully trust him and is waiting to see which way he jumps.0 -
17.4 Million people vote UKIP and do an SNP 2015 on England and Wales. The 650 turkeys voting for Xmas.0
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Because Leave won the referendum (something that seems to be entirely forgotten by the political class) and this cabinet is supposed to following the instruction they were given in that referendum.kle4 said:
So what? Why should a balance of Remainers and Leavers be the method for picking good Cabinet members? That hasn't worked, and it is time to forget who was on what side as being the only thing that matters. And to pick an outcome to go for. If that is hard or if that is soft. Then we can all see if the other side can accept that. If they cannot, so be it.GIN1138 said:
It has always been an absurdity that not only do we have a civil service enacting the referendum result when they don't believe in it, we also have had a Cabinet and Prime Minister enacting that instruction when they don't believe in it.
There is pretty much nobody speaking up for the 17.4 in government while the Prime Minister and the civil service conspires to sell us down the river.0 -
He's uncertain whether to micturate inside or outside the tent.*AlastairMeeks said:Is there any significance to the immobility of Michael Gove?
*Thank you L.B.J.0 -
Well to be fair to May if most of the prominent Brexiteers resign she cannot help but have Remainers in her key posts.CarlottaVance said:
No doubt though that May's Cabinet with the departure of Davis and Boris and of course Patel last year is now dominated by former Remainers, especially in the Great Offices of State, who are more likely to back her Brexit Fudge than hard Brexiteers0 -
One does sometimes wonder how we kept ourselves entertained just a few years ago. What was the big political excitement of 2013, for example?AndyJS said:
We've had an interesting four years, since the start of the Scottish referendum campaign.numbertwelve said:Well she’s done it. Forced in a way, but she has to go down fighting or keep swimming now. Goodness knows we’ve got an interesting few months coming up.
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Plus Agent Corbyngeoffw said:Factionalism now rules. We now have:
Official Conservatives – Theresa M, Philip H
Real Conservatives – Jacob R-M, Sajid J, Lynn T
Continuity Conservatives – Ken C, Anna S, Dominic G
Provisional Conservatives – Peter B, William C
other denominations doubtless will emerge.
All this to sow confusion and doubt in the minds of the dastardly Euro elite.0 -
I don’t rule out a VoNC, but I feel May would surely win. There is no (non-doolally) alternative.
Having said that, what is Boris going to do now that he’s outside the tent? Surely he hasn’t given up his ambitions?0 -
I’m starting to wonder if... whisper it.. we get a second referendum. But it is purely deal vs no deal (ie no withdrawal of Article 50).
I can’t see any downsides tactically for TMay. Claims to respect the result of the first referendum but throws the decision to the people - check. Remainers likely to vote for soft Brexit if they get a choice between that and crashing out - check. Neutralises the meaningful vote juggernaut - check. Provides an excuse for pursuing a soft Brexit policy (I.e the public agree with me) - check.
Only question is whether she can get it through Parliament, but if the Brexiteers don’t vote for something that gives the OPTION of an ultra hard Brexit, can they moan really?0 -
Every day there was a 10pm YouGov to give Pbers a talking point.Danny565 said:
One does wonder how we kept ourselves entertained just a few years ago. What was the big political excitement of 2013, for example?AndyJS said:
We've had an interesting four years, since the start of the Scottish referendum campaign.numbertwelve said:Well she’s done it. Forced in a way, but she has to go down fighting or keep swimming now. Goodness knows we’ve got an interesting few months coming up.
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I think you may be in for a disappointment.....williamglenn said:
May has played this to perfection.MarkHopkins said:tlg86 said:
Some people really have lost their marbles - which I guess was the point of last Friday.TheScreamingEagles said:
THIS ISN'T THE FUCKING DEAL.
Indeed. As Boris points out in his letter, this is just May's opening offer, the actual deal may be much worse.-1 -
Well it won't be quite that dramatic but we could be looking at an SLAB type wipeout of Con across England whenever they dare face the electorate.dellertronic said:17.4 Million people vote UKIP and do an SNP 2015 on England and Wales. The 650 turkeys voting for Xmas.
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It's sad to think that politics will be boring again one day.AndyJS said:
We've had an interesting four years, since the start of the Scottish referendum campaign.numbertwelve said:Well she’s done it. Forced in a way, but she has to go down fighting or keep swimming now. Goodness knows we’ve got an interesting few months coming up.
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He is WormtongueTheScreamingEagles said:
Yes, Mrs May can't stand him and Govey cannot stop plotting. Hard to do plotting from DEFRA.AlastairMeeks said:Is there any significance to the immobility of Michael Gove?
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If Liam Fox read pb he'd have known that on Friday.OblitusSumMe said:
I would expect Liam Fox to resign in the morning, arguing that the Chequers plan would prevent him from signing new trade deals, because of the common rule book.FrancisUrquhart said:
Better hope there isn't another resignation.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
In what way could the EU proposal be better for the Uk than May's opening offer?MarkHopkins said:tlg86 said:
Some people really have lost their marbles - which I guess was the point of last Friday.TheScreamingEagles said:
THIS ISN'T THE FUCKING DEAL.
Indeed. As Boris points out in his letter, this is just May's opening offer, the actual deal may be much worse.
Any suggestions?
Surely it can only get better - for the EU, and worse for the UK, unless we go for WTO.
WTO deal better than a bad deal?0 -
There is no majority in Parliament for any kind of second referendum.numbertwelve said:I’m starting to wonder if... whisper it.. we get a second referendum. But it is purely deal vs no deal (ie no withdrawal of Article 50).
I can’t see any downsides tactically for TMay. Claims to respect the result of the first referendum but throws the decision to the people - check. Remainers likely to vote for soft Brexit if they get a choice between that and crashing out - check. Neutralises the meaningful vote juggernaut - check. Provides an excuse for pursuing a soft Brexit policy (I.e the public agree with me) - check.
Only question is whether she can get it through Parliament, but if the Brexiteers don’t vote for something that gives the OPTION of an ultra hard Brexit, can they moan really?
Even if there was it would take months to get all the legislation in place, work out what the question should be, deal with the inevitable legal challenges etc...
Then there would have to be at least a three month campaign. And what if the voters went for Hard Brexit... Just because they can?0 -
Essexit said:
It's sad to think that politics will be boring again one day.AndyJS said:
We've had an interesting four years, since the start of the Scottish referendum campaign.numbertwelve said:Well she’s done it. Forced in a way, but she has to go down fighting or keep swimming now. Goodness knows we’ve got an interesting few months coming up.
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She might be a pretty ropey PM, but I think she might make a formidable brigade player. She can certainly finesse a very weak hand, and has shown a good ability to count.CarlottaVance said:
I think you may be in for a disappointment.....williamglenn said:
May has played this to perfection.MarkHopkins said:tlg86 said:
Some people really have lost their marbles - which I guess was the point of last Friday.TheScreamingEagles said:
THIS ISN'T THE FUCKING DEAL.
Indeed. As Boris points out in his letter, this is just May's opening offer, the actual deal may be much worse.
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And now for Toppo and any other fans I may have today's Tesco Strawberry score is a six:
Aberdeenshire
Angus
Fife
Cambridgeshire
Herefordshire
Kent
With nothing else among the fruit and veg worth talking about.0 -
I can see two major downsides:numbertwelve said:I’m starting to wonder if... whisper it.. we get a second referendum. But it is purely deal vs no deal (ie no withdrawal of Article 50).
I can’t see any downsides tactically for TMay. Claims to respect the result of the first referendum but throws the decision to the people - check. Remainers likely to vote for soft Brexit if they get a choice between that and crashing out - check. Neutralises the meaningful vote juggernaut - check. Provides an excuse for pursuing a soft Brexit policy (I.e the public agree with me) - check.
Only question is whether she can get it through Parliament, but if the Brexiteers don’t vote for something that gives the OPTION of an ultra hard Brexit, can they moan really?
1) people are sick of politics, sick of Brexit, and sick of the EU. Another referendum would disillusion them further.
2) that being so, No Deal would in all likelihood win.
That is why I have consistently opposed a second referendum, and why I think Remainers who believe it would help us to stay need therapy.0 -
Transparency can be a good thing. Not always of course.CarlottaVance said:0 -
It's possible, but I'm not sure even that scenario gets it through parliament. The one side would think May would only propose it thinking she would win.numbertwelve said:I’m starting to wonder if... whisper it.. we get a second referendum. But it is purely deal vs no deal (ie no withdrawal of Article 50).
I can’t see any downsides tactically for TMay. Claims to respect the result of the first referendum but throws the decision to the people - check. Remainers likely to vote for soft Brexit if they get a choice between that and crashing out - check. Neutralises the meaningful vote juggernaut - check. Provides an excuse for pursuing a soft Brexit policy (I.e the public agree with me) - check.
Only question is whether she can get it through Parliament, but if the Brexiteers don’t vote for something that gives the OPTION of an ultra hard Brexit, can they moan really?0 -
Where's the iceberg?TheScreamingEagles said:A Tory MP tweets
https://twitter.com/GeorgeFreemanMP/status/10164188350402601070 -
"Tick tock, losers."another_richard said:
Every day there was a 10pm YouGov to give Pbers a talking point.Danny565 said:
One does wonder how we kept ourselves entertained just a few years ago. What was the big political excitement of 2013, for example?AndyJS said:
We've had an interesting four years, since the start of the Scottish referendum campaign.numbertwelve said:Well she’s done it. Forced in a way, but she has to go down fighting or keep swimming now. Goodness knows we’ve got an interesting few months coming up.
EICIPM0 -
FT front page - not really sure this is a 'blow' - the government has lost one minister who evidently was not on top of his brief and another who should have been fired many months ago as totally unfit for high office.
https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1016423042359156737
I suspect the ripples will close swiftly over the heads of Messers Davis & Johnson0 -
Oh dear, Miss Vance! Mr Cameron`s Referendum seems on present form to have been seriously contaminated by undue influence from Russia, via stooges in the DUP and some of the self-proclaimed leaders of the Leave campaign. Perhaps that influences people`s views on what democracy ought to mean.CarlottaVance said:
Its funny how some seem to have difficulty with the concept.....they would appear to be Remain first, democrat second.ydoethur said:
That referendum which had a majority for Leave may have had something to do with it.rural_voter said:
Hunt probably still believes in remaining. I don't know why he 'changed his mind'.williamglenn said:Hunt is on the record as saying that the people need to be able to vote on the terms of Brexit. A second referendum should be odds on now.
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Then although it’s not in the national interest, the Tories can claim to have consulted the people on the sort of Brexit they wanted. You are absolutely right that’s the risk, but I’m not sure I trust the Conservative party at the moment to take any kind of sensible position if they can make a play for internal party unity. Cynical but true.GIN1138 said:
There is no majority in Parliament for any kind of second referendum.numbertwelve said:I’m starting to wonder if... whisper it.. we get a second referendum. But it is purely deal vs no deal (ie no withdrawal of Article 50).
I can’t see any downsides tactically for TMay. Claims to respect the result of the first referendum but throws the decision to the people - check. Remainers likely to vote for soft Brexit if they get a choice between that and crashing out - check. Neutralises the meaningful vote juggernaut - check. Provides an excuse for pursuing a soft Brexit policy (I.e the public agree with me) - check.
Only question is whether she can get it through Parliament, but if the Brexiteers don’t vote for something that gives the OPTION of an ultra hard Brexit, can they moan really?
Even if there was it would take months to get all the legislation in place, work out what the question should be, deal with the inevitable legal challenges etc...
Then there would have to be at least a three month campaign. And what if the voters went for Hard Brexit... Just because they can?
I take your point on timescales though. They’d have to push it through Parliament quickly. Unless they can somehow persuade the EU to grant an extension but god knows if that would be possible.
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History will tell us. Potentially, May has played a blinder and lost two massive thorns.CarlottaVance said:FT front page - not really sure this is a 'blow' - the government has lost one minister who evidently was not on top of his brief and another who should have been fired many months ago as totally unfit for high office.
https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1016423042359156737
I suspect the ripples will close swiftly over the heads of Messers Davis & Johnson
Then again, she could be gone by Friday.0 -
Which is which?CarlottaVance said:FT front page - not really sure this is a 'blow' - the government has lost one minister who evidently was not on top of his brief and another who should have been fired many months ago as totally unfit for high office.
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Cabinet ministers go yet that dolt Hammond is still in place.0
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By the next general election Mogg may well be Tory leader going on the current membership polls so I would not worry yourself too much.GIN1138 said:
Well it won't be quite that dramatic but we could be looking at an SLAB type wipeout of Con across England whenever they dare face the electorate.dellertronic said:17.4 Million people vote UKIP and do an SNP 2015 on England and Wales. The 650 turkeys voting for Xmas.
Though if May stays or we are still in the transition period by the next general election Farage will certainly come back as UKIP leader and fancy his chances0 -
Good observation - she invited Poker players to a Bridge game.Nigelb said:
She might be a pretty ropey PM, but I think she might make a formidable brigade player. She can certainly finesse a very weak hand, and has shown a good ability to count.CarlottaVance said:
I think you may be in for a disappointment.....williamglenn said:
May has played this to perfection.MarkHopkins said:tlg86 said:
Some people really have lost their marbles - which I guess was the point of last Friday.TheScreamingEagles said:
THIS ISN'T THE FUCKING DEAL.
Indeed. As Boris points out in his letter, this is just May's opening offer, the actual deal may be much worse.0 -
CD13 said:
Mr Freggles,
"Not this again.
Most Labour voters voted Remain. What everyone else in their constituency did makes no difference."
Not this again. My constituency in NW England. Referendum 58% Leave. GE 2OI7 Labour 26,000 Cons 6,000, Ukip 6,000, Others bits and bobs. labour majority 20,000
Who voted Leave?
Complete and utter nonsense. The average voter will ascribe far less importance to Brexit than the obsessiveness it gets on here. As ever, crime, schools n’hospitals and the economy will be far more important.GIN1138 said:
Well it won't be quite that dramatic but we could be looking at an SLAB type wipeout of Con across England whenever they dare face the electorate.dellertronic said:17.4 Million people vote UKIP and do an SNP 2015 on England and Wales. The 650 turkeys voting for Xmas.
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Is this is a joke? It's an unmitigated and almighty mess.CarlottaVance said:FT front page - not really sure this is a 'blow' - the government has lost one minister who evidently was not on top of his brief and another who should have been fired many months ago as totally unfit for high office.
I suspect the ripples will close swiftly over the heads of Messers Davis & Johnson
Theresa May's position now hangs by the faintest whisper of a gossamer thread.0 -
They’re still arguing over which to steer the ship towardsDavid_Evershed said:
Where's the iceberg?TheScreamingEagles said:A Tory MP tweets
https://twitter.com/GeorgeFreemanMP/status/10164188350402601070 -
The cabinet is stronger than it was 24hrs ago.0
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And one side (Remain) significantly outspending the other (Leave) -even without the government propagandaPClipp said:
Oh dear, Miss Vance! Mr Cameron`s Referendum seems on present form to have been seriously contaminated by undue influence from Russia, via stooges in the DUP and some of the self-proclaimed leaders of the Leave campaign. Perhaps that influences people`s views on what democracy ought to mean.CarlottaVance said:
Its funny how some seem to have difficulty with the concept.....they would appear to be Remain first, democrat second.ydoethur said:
That referendum which had a majority for Leave may have had something to do with it.rural_voter said:
Hunt probably still believes in remaining. I don't know why he 'changed his mind'.williamglenn said:Hunt is on the record as saying that the people need to be able to vote on the terms of Brexit. A second referendum should be odds on now.
I presume thats what you were referring to?0 -
You’re traumatised by Cameron’s disaster and you’re convinced Selmayr is plotting for No Deal. I think you should try giving May some credit and wait and see what she does.ydoethur said:
I can see two major downsides:numbertwelve said:I’m starting to wonder if... whisper it.. we get a second referendum. But it is purely deal vs no deal (ie no withdrawal of Article 50).
I can’t see any downsides tactically for TMay. Claims to respect the result of the first referendum but throws the decision to the people - check. Remainers likely to vote for soft Brexit if they get a choice between that and crashing out - check. Neutralises the meaningful vote juggernaut - check. Provides an excuse for pursuing a soft Brexit policy (I.e the public agree with me) - check.
Only question is whether she can get it through Parliament, but if the Brexiteers don’t vote for something that gives the OPTION of an ultra hard Brexit, can they moan really?
1) people are sick of politics, sick of Brexit, and sick of the EU. Another referendum would disillusion them further.
2) that being so, No Deal would in all likelihood win.
That is why I have consistently opposed a second referendum, and why I think Remainers who believe it would help us to stay need therapy.0 -
Meanwhile, back with the tribunes of the ordinary folk:
https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/10163960211722362910 -
I'm not so sure that's true. Rather like the election of Pope, the one who goes into the conclave as Pope leaves as Cardinal. So with the Tories. There are some very capable ministers below the media floozy level who could come to the fore, rather in the way that David Cameron did.Gardenwalker said:I don’t rule out a VoNC, but I feel May would surely win. There is no (non-doolally) alternative.
The distinctly unfortunate aspect is that we're in the middle of Brexit negotiations.
So, suppose a sensible moderate, but appealing to Brexiteers, candidate was to offer a 12 month delay on Brexit ... in order to bash out the best deal for Britain first?0 -
Johnson etc claim to speak for the 17.4 million, but people voted for Brexit for many, many different reasons. The idea that leaving the EU would enable us to persue free trade deals was very much a minority, elite view. It hasn´t gathered momentum.
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CarlottaVance said:
And one side (Remain) significantly outspending the other (Leave) -even without the government propagandaPClipp said:
Oh dear, Miss Vance! Mr Cameron`s Referendum seems on present form to have been seriously contaminated by undue influence from Russia, via stooges in the DUP and some of the self-proclaimed leaders of the Leave campaign. Perhaps that influences people`s views on what democracy ought to mean.CarlottaVance said:
Its funny how some seem to have difficulty with the concept.....they would appear to be Remain first, democrat second.ydoethur said:
That referendum which had a majority for Leave may have had something to do with it.rural_voter said:
Hunt probably still believes in remaining. I don't know why he 'changed his mind'.williamglenn said:Hunt is on the record as saying that the people need to be able to vote on the terms of Brexit. A second referendum should be odds on now.
I presume thats what you were referring to?
Wonder what the ad spend of the Russian machine was (or was equivalent to?). I don’t really buy this Remain outspent Leave nonsense.0 -
What are they doing in Bermuda?rottenborough said:Meanwhile, back with the tribunes of the ordinary folk:
https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/10163960211722362910 -
But, Some dangerous people are now angry, isolated and outside the tent pissing in.0
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But it still has no chance of getting its Brexit deal through Parliament.Jonathan said:The cabinet is stronger than it was 24hrs ago.
Nothing has changed.0 -
Your underestimating the anger of the average Con/Leave voter about what's going on.not_on_fire said:CD13 said:Mr Freggles,
"Not this again.
Most Labour voters voted Remain. What everyone else in their constituency did makes no difference."
Not this again. My constituency in NW England. Referendum 58% Leave. GE 2OI7 Labour 26,000 Cons 6,000, Ukip 6,000, Others bits and bobs. labour majority 20,000
Who voted Leave?
Complete and utter nonsense. The average voter will ascribe far less importance to Brexit than the obsessiveness it gets on here. As ever, crime, schools n’hospitals and the economy will be far more important.GIN1138 said:
Well it won't be quite that dramatic but we could be looking at an SLAB type wipeout of Con across England whenever they dare face the electorate.dellertronic said:17.4 Million people vote UKIP and do an SNP 2015 on England and Wales. The 650 turkeys voting for Xmas.
This is beyond staying or leaving the EU per se now. This is about politicians and governments respecting and enacting what the voters tell them to do.0 -
Fishing I think. Well, that's the public facing view.FrancisUrquhart said:
What are they doing in Bermuda?rottenborough said:Meanwhile, back with the tribunes of the ordinary folk:
https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/10163960211722362910 -
Whether its deliberate or not, doing this less than a year out from exit day and daring the party to start an insurrection is tactically probably the best way she could play it. It could all come unstuck of course but if it was intentional it’s strategically smart.CarlottaVance said:
Good observation - she invited Poker players to a Bridge game.Nigelb said:
She might be a pretty ropey PM, but I think she might make a formidable brigade player. She can certainly finesse a very weak hand, and has shown a good ability to count.CarlottaVance said:
I think you may be in for a disappointment.....williamglenn said:
May has played this to perfection.MarkHopkins said:tlg86 said:
Some people really have lost their marbles - which I guess was the point of last Friday.TheScreamingEagles said:
THIS ISN'T THE FUCKING DEAL.
Indeed. As Boris points out in his letter, this is just May's opening offer, the actual deal may be much worse.
But given TMays previous record when it comes to strategy (ie rather useless), I’m tempted to believe it’s not been deliberate.
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I think the damage is already done. I can't conceive of any outcome where the electorate will think "they did such a good job with Brexit they deserve another term".GIN1138 said:This is beyond staying or leaving the EU per se now. This is about politicians and governments respecting and enacting what the voters tell them to do.
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And people are pretending the voters were clearer than they were. There are some things the government would be advised cannot be fudged to keep voters happy, perhaps even part of the deal, but there has been bollocks from day one about things being clear about what must happen from the vote, usually from people pushing a specific agenda which it is far from clear is as supported as specific parts of it might be.GIN1138 said:
Your underestimating the anger of the average Con/Leaver voter about what's going on.not_on_fire said:CD13 said:Mr Freggles,
"Not this again.
Most Labour voters voted Remain. What everyone else in their constituency did makes no difference."
Not this again. My constituency in NW England. Referendum 58% Leave. GE 2OI7 Labour 26,000 Cons 6,000, Ukip 6,000, Others bits and bobs. labour majority 20,000
Who voted Leave?
Complete and utter nonsense. The average voter will ascribe far less importance to Brexit than the obsessiveness it gets on here. As ever, crime, schools n’hospitals and the economy will be far more important.GIN1138 said:
Well it won't be quite that dramatic but we could be looking at an SLAB type wipeout of Con across England whenever they dare face the electorate.dellertronic said:17.4 Million people vote UKIP and do an SNP 2015 on England and Wales. The 650 turkeys voting for Xmas.
This is beyond staying or leaving the EU per se now. This is about politicians and governments respecting and enacting what the voters tell them to do.0 -
https://youtu.be/hn6Rds4kbFErottenborough said:
Fishing I think. Well, that's the public facing view.FrancisUrquhart said:
What are they doing in Bermuda?rottenborough said:Meanwhile, back with the tribunes of the ordinary folk:
https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/10163960211722362910 -
What ad spend? It was just some Twitter bots that were so apparently influential that the generation that spends its time on Twitter voted about 70 per cent remain and no one seemed to be aware of them until some time after remain - and Clinton - lost!Gardenwalker said:CarlottaVance said:
And one side (Remain) significantly outspending the other (Leave) -even without the government propagandaPClipp said:
Oh dear, Miss Vance! Mr Cameron`s Referendum seems on present form to have been seriously contaminated by undue influence from Russia, via stooges in the DUP and some of the self-proclaimed leaders of the Leave campaign. Perhaps that influences people`s views on what democracy ought to mean.CarlottaVance said:
Its funny how some seem to have difficulty with the concept.....they would appear to be Remain first, democrat second.ydoethur said:
That referendum which had a majority for Leave may have had something to do with it.rural_voter said:
Hunt probably still believes in remaining. I don't know why he 'changed his mind'.williamglenn said:Hunt is on the record as saying that the people need to be able to vote on the terms of Brexit. A second referendum should be odds on now.
I presume thats what you were referring to?
Wonder what the ad spend of the Russian machine was (or was equivalent to?). I don’t really buy this Remain outspent Leave nonsense.
Lots of factors boosted the leave vote - Russian Twitter bots were probably rather marginal.
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The Electoral Commission said so.....Gardenwalker said:CarlottaVance said:
And one side (Remain) significantly outspending the other (Leave) -even without the government propagandaPClipp said:
Oh dear, Miss Vance! Mr Cameron`s Referendum seems on present form to have been seriously contaminated by undue influence from Russia, via stooges in the DUP and some of the self-proclaimed leaders of the Leave campaign. Perhaps that influences people`s views on what democracy ought to mean.CarlottaVance said:
Its funny how some seem to have difficulty with the concept.....they would appear to be Remain first, democrat second.ydoethur said:
That referendum which had a majority for Leave may have had something to do with it.rural_voter said:
Hunt probably still believes in remaining. I don't know why he 'changed his mind'.williamglenn said:Hunt is on the record as saying that the people need to be able to vote on the terms of Brexit. A second referendum should be odds on now.
I presume thats what you were referring to?
Wonder what the ad spend of the Russian machine was (or was equivalent to?). I don’t really buy this Remain outspent Leave nonsense.
https://tinyurl.com/yc5e2pfa
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I thought their shorts were on 23/06/16.FrancisUrquhart said:
What are they doing in Bermuda?rottenborough said:Meanwhile, back with the tribunes of the ordinary folk:
https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/10163960211722362910 -
No it isn't. It's a weak cabinet because it has lost a vital part of the party and country.Jonathan said:The cabinet is stronger than it was 24hrs ago.
It will fall.
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That’s irrelevant if May is planning a referendum on the deal versus Remain. She just has to be able to sell the idea that the principles of her deal are the truest to the 2016 mandate within the constraints of what is deliverable, and then turn it over to the people.anothernick said:
But it still has no chance of getting its Brexit deal through Parliament.Jonathan said:The cabinet is stronger than it was 24hrs ago.
Nothing has changed.0 -
ALL who would have to get past the Tory membership in the final round and all the evidence is Tory members will vote for a hard Brexiteer if they get the chance with the possible exception of Javid who pressed May hard on ensuring no preferential treatment for EU migrants in immigration rulesHandymandy1980 said:
I'm not so sure that's true. Rather like the election of Pope, the one who goes into the conclave as Pope leaves as Cardinal. So with the Tories. There are some very capable ministers below the media floozy level who could come to the fore, rather in the way that David Cameron did.Gardenwalker said:I don’t rule out a VoNC, but I feel May would surely win. There is no (non-doolally) alternative.
The distinctly unfortunate aspect is that we're in the middle of Brexit negotiations.
So, suppose a sensible moderate, but appealing to Brexiteers, candidate was to offer a 12 month delay on Brexit ... in order to bash out the best deal for Britain first?0 -
Peter Bone clip from the Commons devastating on BBC news, talks of Tory activists 'refusing to go out and campaign for the party for the first time'0
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Wasn't Theresa's Lancaster House speech pretty much the policy ALL Brexiteers rallied behind?TheScreamingEagles said:
It's been downhill all the way ever since but if she'd stuck to what she said in her Lancaster House speech Brexiteers would be happy...0 -
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Or much better - if you are interested in the good of the country.MarkHopkins said:tlg86 said:
Some people really have lost their marbles - which I guess was the point of last Friday.TheScreamingEagles said:
THIS ISN'T THE FUCKING DEAL.
Indeed. As Boris points out in his letter, this is just May's opening offer, the actual deal may be much worse.0 -
No - it’s just a positive spin. Yours is the opposite.Handymandy1980 said:
Is this is a joke? It's an unmitigated and almighty mess.CarlottaVance said:FT front page - not really sure this is a 'blow' - the government has lost one minister who evidently was not on top of his brief and another who should have been fired many months ago as totally unfit for high office.
I suspect the ripples will close swiftly over the heads of Messers Davis & Johnson
Theresa May's position now hangs by the faintest whisper of a gossamer thread.
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No, I'm intelligent, careful and I speak to people who disagree with me. Moreover, in the last year I've spent a lot of time (time I haven't got a lot of) studying Selmayr and I have been shocked by what I found. Suffice it to say that the very dubious way he has risen up the political ladder is only the tip of the iceberg (sorry) and that a man who posts on neo-Nazi forums downplaying the extent of his grandfather's involvement in civilian massacres in Yugoslavia is not a man who should be holding high political office in a supra-national organisation, even if he hadn't been appointed illegally.williamglenn said:You’re traumatised by Cameron’s disaster and you’re convinced Selmayr is plotting for No Deal. I think you should try giving May some credit and wait and see what she does.
The simple fact is that the EU is deeply (often justly) unpopular in this country and it is most unlikely after the last two years that it would get a majority to change the course we've set ourselves on for good or ill. At the same time, the EU does not work in good faith and it is determined not to give us any sort of deal that might lead others to follow our example. That means in practice vassalage or No Deal. The first can't be delivered in London beyond what we've seen today. Indeed, this is barely deliverable. So if the EU reject it (as seems likely) we're going out with no deal.
You've made a number of comments about my psychological state - frequently very unpleasant and even defamatory ones. With respect, it would seem to me that you are the one who is traumatised. You seem to be in utter denial about the simple political mathematics of the situation. Whether that is because you are, for whatever reason, convinced that the EU is an unadulterated good and cannot understand why everyone else can't see that, or whether you were just shocked to be on the losing side, I don't know. But your comments include a claim, for example, that this will lead us to join the euro, or Schengen. Neither is even remotely possible. They seem to be the mere reflexes of someone with an inability to accept defeat.
Can I urge you as strongly as possible to get past this? You clearly aren't stupid and you often make comments worth reading. Anything on Brexit and you're off like a puppy that scents biscuits. I think you would be happier to let go and realise that we have to make the best of it. And the best isn't federalism, which is now dead. It's about salvaging what economic links we can. It's easier for those of us who always thought federalism was a stupid idea and wanted the EU to develop into an economic rather than political organisation. But like it or loathe it, it's an idea that's just been firmly forced on us, and that, not your dream of a reversal, is what May is trying to do and what a second referendum would kill off.0 -
Most Tory activists are increasingly of the view they would prefer 'never' rather than a BINO deal and are ready for hard Brexitwilliamglenn said:0 -
Tory activists refusing to go out and campaign is the least of your worries... Actually getting Tory voters to the polling stations to vote for you will be the real problem...HYUFD said:Peter Bone clip from the Commons devastating on BBC news, talks of Tory activists 'refusing to go out and campaign for the party for the first time'
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Arf!thecommissioner said:
He struggled as a blood donor, it's hard to imagine him doing any better heading the department.TheScreamingEagles said:Hancock to Health
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Jeremy Hunt the John Major de nos jours?0
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May could get 300 private even public pledges but about a fifth of that in the VoNC secret ballot.William_H said:May clearly isn't going via VoNC, but surely she needs to have a majority in parliament prepared to vote for her version of Brexit for her position to be tenable?
It’s not Brexit that is bringing her down this week, but when it comes to VoNC voting will be on the Mays personality, her politics, her record as PM across the whole piece, with already many blots on copy book. Support teams she builds around herself are so rubbish, with weird ideas what strong leadership looks like and how to score policy wins.
What triumphs in VoNC is the pull of a fresh voice, with a clean slate, without baggage of fudge, uturns, windrush. Regardless of factions or personalities, the voting will want that change.
That VONC is coming sooner or sooner still
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What exactly is the position on the FOM policy now - is the migration framework what Javid and Leadsome think it is or is it a bit more vague as May suggested in her interview with the BBC at the weekend and be FOM in all but name with preferential treatment for EU nationals. Notwithstanding the 3.5 million already here who have to be granted their settled status.HYUFD said:
ALL who would have to get past the Tory membership in the final round and all the evidence is Tory members will vote for a hard Brexiteer if they get the chance with the possible exception of Javid who pressed May hard on ensuring no preferential treatment for EU migrants in immigration rulesHandymandy1980 said:
I'm not so sure that's true. Rather like the election of Pope, the one who goes into the conclave as Pope leaves as Cardinal. So with the Tories. There are some very capable ministers below the media floozy level who could come to the fore, rather in the way that David Cameron did.Gardenwalker said:I don’t rule out a VoNC, but I feel May would surely win. There is no (non-doolally) alternative.
The distinctly unfortunate aspect is that we're in the middle of Brexit negotiations.
So, suppose a sensible moderate, but appealing to Brexiteers, candidate was to offer a 12 month delay on Brexit ... in order to bash out the best deal for Britain first?
I think it's quite likely that the EU will push for full FOM - and I expect May will most likely cave on that too to get a deal.0 -
It still has no chance of getting its Brexit deal through Brussels.anothernick said:
But it still has no chance of getting its Brexit deal through Parliament.Jonathan said:The cabinet is stronger than it was 24hrs ago.
Nothing has changed.0 -
It is whatever the EU tells Theresa May it's going to be...brendan16 said:
What exactly is the position on the FOM policy nowHYUFD said:
ALL who would have to get past the Tory membership in the final round and all the evidence is Tory members will vote for a hard Brexiteer if they get the chance with the possible exception of Javid who pressed May hard on ensuring no preferential treatment for EU migrants in immigration rulesHandymandy1980 said:
I'm not so sure that's true. Rather like the election of Pope, the one who goes into the conclave as Pope leaves as Cardinal. So with the Tories. There are some very capable ministers below the media floozy level who could come to the fore, rather in the way that David Cameron did.Gardenwalker said:I don’t rule out a VoNC, but I feel May would surely win. There is no (non-doolally) alternative.
The distinctly unfortunate aspect is that we're in the middle of Brexit negotiations.
So, suppose a sensible moderate, but appealing to Brexiteers, candidate was to offer a 12 month delay on Brexit ... in order to bash out the best deal for Britain first?0 -
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No, Jeremy Hunt is the man who is trounced by Mogg and Gove and Javid and beaten by Boris too in both the Yougov and ConHome Tory members Tory Leadership polls. He should stick to being Douglas Hurd and focus on the day job.TheScreamingEagles said:Jeremy Hunt the John Major de nos jours?
Javid though maybe John Major to Boris' Heseltine, Mogg's Tebbit and May's Thatcher with Corbyn as Kinnock0 -
Me? Are you kidding? Hey, I was with you all the time! That was beautiful! Did you see the way the Leavers fell into our trap? Ha ha!TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Would be nice to see some polls ,see if the Tories are losing leave voters ?GIN1138 said:
Tory activists refusing to go out and campaign is the least of your worries... Actually getting Tory voters to the polling stations to vote for you will be the real problem...HYUFD said:Peter Bone clip from the Commons devastating on BBC news, talks of Tory activists 'refusing to go out and campaign for the party for the first time'
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I think rather it’s the Johnson leadership dream that is dying.Scott_P said:
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Chortle. Wasn’t he bitching earlier that May leaked the news before he had a chance to? He obviously spent too much time in make-up.Scott_P said:0 -
Which is why Mogg is the current favourite of Tory members to succeed MayGIN1138 said:
Tory activists refusing to go out and campaign is the least of your worries... Actually getting Tory voters to the polling stations to vote for you will be the real problem...HYUFD said:Peter Bone clip from the Commons devastating on BBC news, talks of Tory activists 'refusing to go out and campaign for the party for the first time'
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Major didn't go to Oxford...TheScreamingEagles said:Jeremy Hunt the John Major de nos jours?
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Can't see why they wouldn't be... What possible reason would a leave voting Tory have for voting for Theresa May?Tykejohnno said:
Would be nice to see some polls ,see if the Tories are losing leave voters ?GIN1138 said:
Tory activists refusing to go out and campaign is the least of your worries... Actually getting Tory voters to the polling stations to vote for you will be the real problem...HYUFD said:Peter Bone clip from the Commons devastating on BBC news, talks of Tory activists 'refusing to go out and campaign for the party for the first time'
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If she does indeed cave in on that Javid will walk and her leadership will finally be over this timebrendan16 said:
What exactly is the position on the FOM policy now - is the migration framework what Javid and Leadsome think it is or is it a bit more vague as May suggested in her interview with the BBC at the weekend and be FOM in all but name with preferential treatment for EU nationals. Notwithstanding the 3.5 million already here who have to be granted their settled status.HYUFD said:
ALL who would have to get past the Tory membership in the final round and all the evidence is Tory members will vote for a hard Brexiteer if they get the chance with the possible exception of Javid who pressed May hard on ensuring no preferential treatment for EU migrants in immigration rulesHandymandy1980 said:
I'm not so sure that's true. Rather like the election of Pope, the one who goes into the conclave as Pope leaves as Cardinal. So with the Tories. There are some very capable ministers below the media floozy level who could come to the fore, rather in the way that David Cameron did.Gardenwalker said:I don’t rule out a VoNC, but I feel May would surely win. There is no (non-doolally) alternative.
The distinctly unfortunate aspect is that we're in the middle of Brexit negotiations.
So, suppose a sensible moderate, but appealing to Brexiteers, candidate was to offer a 12 month delay on Brexit ... in order to bash out the best deal for Britain first?
I think it's quite likely that the EU will push for full FOM - and I expect May will most likely cave on that too to get a deal.0 -
Yikes.
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Vote May and Spreadsheet Phil ? Meh why bother - unispiring wet establishment mush. Waste of shoe leather to go to the polling station.HYUFD said:Peter Bone clip from the Commons devastating on BBC news, talks of Tory activists 'refusing to go out and campaign for the party for the first time'
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Er, but what about the polls in 3 or 6 or 12 months time? A few months ago, Javid could have been sacked (and apparently very nearly was) and would have disappeared without trace. Now he's the front-runner. You don't seem to get this statement of the stunningly obvious.HYUFD said:
No, Jeremy Hunt is the man who is trounced by Mogg and Gove and Javid and beaten by Boris too in both the Yougov and ConHome Tory members Tory Leadership polls. He should stick to being Douglas Hurd and focus on the day job.TheScreamingEagles said:Jeremy Hunt the John Major de nos jours?
Javid though maybe John Major to Boris' Heseltine, Mogg's Tebbit and May's Thatcher with Corbyn as Kinnock0 -
Is that why he hung around Carlton Gardens for so long? Waiting for a photo-shoot?Scott_P said:0 -
Nor did Javid who like Major comes from a working class background unlike posh boy HuntSunil_Prasannan said:
Major didn't go to Oxford...TheScreamingEagles said:Jeremy Hunt the John Major de nos jours?
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Post of the Year.thecommissioner said:
He struggled as a blood donor, it's hard to imagine him doing any better heading the department.TheScreamingEagles said:Hancock to Health
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Indeed, polls aren't static.JohnO said:
Er, but what about the polls in 3 or 6 or 12 months time? A few months ago, Javid could have been sacked (and apparently very nearly was) and would have disappeared without trace. Now he's the front-runner. You don't seem to get this statement of the stunningly obvious.HYUFD said:
No, Jeremy Hunt is the man who is trounced by Mogg and Gove and Javid and beaten by Boris too in both the Yougov and ConHome Tory members Tory Leadership polls. He should stick to being Douglas Hurd and focus on the day job.TheScreamingEagles said:Jeremy Hunt the John Major de nos jours?
Javid though maybe John Major to Boris' Heseltine, Mogg's Tebbit and May's Thatcher with Corbyn as Kinnock
I remember when he used to say DD was almost certain to replace Mrs May.0 -
TGOHF said:
Vote May and Spreadsheet Phil ? Meh why bother - unispiring wet establishment mush. Waste of shoe leather to go to the polling station.HYUFD said:Peter Bone clip from the Commons devastating on BBC news, talks of Tory activists 'refusing to go out and campaign for the party for the first time'
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[Gallic shrug] Unfortunatement, je ne comprends pas le français!TheScreamingEagles said:Yikes.
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Christ, what a tit.Scott_P said:0
