politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Three Lions: just maybe

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Are the odds on England getting to the final shortening. Russia and Croatia are poor

They are indeed.

1.8 - longer, I think, than when Russia went 1-0 up

Pagan said:

HYUFD said:

Pagan said:

HYUFD said:

Pagan said:

HYUFD said:

Pagan said:

If you are ment

Its got nothing to do with any of that

I don't care about the quantity of immigration I care about the quality. It makes no sense to import min wage workers

I don't care about austerity I think that there should be a damn sight more of it.

The conservatives used to be a party of low tax and small state. They ceased to be that. The only route I find I have now to get to a country that is governed that way is to bankrupt the country in the short term so we emerge fitter and leaner the other side. Yes there will be pain but in the long term we will be better off.


The conservatives are now just another left wing magic money tree party. If I have to vote for one I might as well vote for a proper one

It has everything to do with that and indeed you have just proved my point as it is too many low skilled min wage migrants the working class primarily voted Leave to reduce.

You may not care about austerity, Corbyn and McDonnell certainly do and will not only definitely not have any more of it but will go on a spending spree unparalleled by any government for decades, funded by big tax rises on the wealthy and the rich.

Spending as a percentall and have ironically in effect voted to end austerity not increase it.

Did you not read what I said? Obviously not. Yes Corbyn and McDonnel will go on a spending splurge, I see that as a plus I hope they bankrupt us. That means we have to start living within our means. That means cutting back the state signifigantly. I have no party to vote for that has aims like mine so I will vote for a party that will bring about what I want even if it is inadvertently

If you think voters are going to vote for Corbyn to increase spending after almost a decade of austerity then change their mind the next general election and vote for a party promising to take spending down to Singapore levels and slash funds for the NHS etc you are living in cloud cuckoo land.


Though if slashing spending and Brexit is the be all and end all for you I suggest the UK Libertarian Party may be an option, given their commitment to lower taxes, small government and leaving the EU and replacing it with free trade agreements


https://libertarianpartyuk.com/

I was indeed a paid up member when chris mounsie was in charge, andrew withers however who took over was in my opinion a conman out for a quick buck so I left

Though with a party relatively small like the Libertarian Party every active member can have a real influence

Croatia within literally an inch of going ahead there!

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1015676558755983360

That started last night

TheWhiteRabbit said:

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Are the odds on England getting to the final shortening. Russia and Croatia are poor

They are indeed.

1.8 - longer, I think, than when Russia went 1-0 up

To have the opportunity to reach a WC final by beating one of these two is a chance that most of this England squad will never get again.

OldKingCole said:

Sandpit said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Bad sports news.

https://twitter.com/skydavidblevins/status/1015669038742196226

Sad news indeed. Road racing probably the most dangerous sport in Britain. Rest in Peace.

One has to have enormous sympathy for his mother. Husband and son lost in this fashion.

And Joey Dunlop's brother.
Not a sport for mothers and wives (& yeah, I know there are women racers too).

Scott_P said:

Gove is on Marr tomorrow.

Will he give Brexiteers the Boris treatment?

Reported he was the first Brexiteer to support TM

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Reported he was the first Brexiteer to support TM

That was yesterday...

OldKingCole said:

Sandpit said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Bad sports news.

https://twitter.com/skydavidblevins/status/1015669038742196226

Sad news indeed. Road racing probably the most dangerous sport in Britain. Rest in Peace.

One has to have enormous sympathy for his mother. Husband and son lost in this fashion.

Indeed so. While who participate in these extreme sports know the risks, their wives and mothers are often the ones left grieving when accidents happen.

It’s often said that F1 drivers are never the same again after they have children, the most recent example being Nico Rosberg who quit as soon as he won the title - and hasn’t driven any sort of racing car since.

OldKingCole said:

Totally O’t but I;m off to the Canary Islands tomorrow and I’m not sure of either the WiFi (though I think it’s OK) or the ability of my iPad ..... not taking a laptop......to connect with vanilla’s forums. Or, pace Mr D, fora!

I hope to be able to resume my odd geriatric ramblings in a couple of weeks time, by which time I hope the whole Bexit business will be sorted and football will have come home!

Have a good trip! Yes iPads work just fine - I’m on one now.
Use https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com for best results!

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

GIN1138 said:

MikeL said:

Remember all the posts on here when Cameron backed gay marriage - all the headbanging diehards would never vote Con again and he'd be thrown out at the next GE.

Action replay now taking place.

Of course many people feel very passionately and many people are very upset. But that doesn't mean that all political reason will be thrown out of the window.

The best guide to the political effect of what happened last night is that it wasn't even the lead story on most of the tabloids.

I think subverting the biggest ever democratic vote in the UK's history is a tad more serious than gay marriage - Which was in any case a manifesto commitment - Who can be critical of a government enacting it's manifesto?

If only Theresa May was prepared to stick by her manifesto...

I agree the two issues are not a great comparison, although whether it will be as destructive as some think I am uncertain on. I think it more likely Con will take a hit enough to definitely lose the next election, without being demolished.

If it looks like May will take a hit so badly because of her EU deal she will lose to Corbyn due to Tory voters staying at home or going to UKIP Boris or Rees Mogg will be elected Tory leader to replace her before the transition period ends at the end of December 2020 (the main difference of May's deal probably to ensure that transition period takes place)

Oh I am sure she will be replaced long before the next scheduled election regardless, but if there are enough people angry enough at Brexit to at least say they will vote Corbyn in protest (even though he won't change the Brexit outcome) or stay at home, and that materialises to at least a small degree (which is all it would take), I don't see them coming back, say, because Javid the Betrayer of Chequers who backed May's deal, and I don't see how if this Brexit path continues that the MPs let a Rees Mogg type take over.

Boris has had his day.

The ongoing exposure of Brexiter mendacity is one of the few net benefits of Brexit. History will be unkind to Davis and brutal to Boris.

The jury’s still out on Gove.

Gardenwalker said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

GIN1138 said:

MikeL said:

Remember all the posts on here when Cameron backed gay marriage - all the headbanging diehards would never vote Con again and he'd be thrown out at the next GE.

Action replay now taking place.

Of course many people feel very passionately and many people are very upset. But that doesn't mean that all political reason will be thrown out of the window.

The best guide to the political effect of what happened last night is that it wasn't even the lead story on most of the tabloids.

I think subverting the biggest ever democratic vote in the UK's history is a tad more serious than gay marriage - Which was in any case a manifesto commitment - Who can be critical of a government enacting it's manifesto?

If only Theresa May was prepared to stick by her manifesto...

I agree the two issues are not a great comparison, although whether it will be as destructive as some think I am uncertain on. I think it more likely Con will take a hit enough to definitely lose the next election, without being demolished.

If it looks like May will take a hit so badly because of her EU deal she will lose to Corbyn due to Tory voters staying at home or going to UKIP Boris or Rees Mogg will be elected Tory leader to replace her before the transition period ends at the end of December 2020 (the main difference of May's deal probably to ensure that transition period takes place)

Oh I am sure she will be replaced long before the next scheduled election regardless, but if there are enough people angry enough at Brexit to at least say they will vote Corbyn in protest (even though he won't change the Brexit outcome) or stay at home, and that materialises to at least a small degree (which is all it would take), I don't see them coming back, say, because Javid the Betrayer of Chequers who backed May's deal, and I don't see how if this Brexit path continues that the MPs let a Rees Mogg type take over.

Boris has had his day.

The ongoing exposure of Brexiter mendacity is one of the few net benefits of Brexit. History will be unkind to Davis and brutal to Boris.

The jury’s still out on Gove.

There was a pro-Brexit campaign film before the referendum in which David Davis and Kate Hoey used the fact that they didn't understand how the EU worked as an argument to leave.

williamglenn said:

Ishmael_Z said:

williamglenn said:

Ishmael_Z said:

williamglenn said:

Words are a politician's tool and he chose those words very deliberately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA

What? Words are everyone's tool, and everybody chooses them carefully. And the words he "very deliberately chose" don't include the words you initially said he used. You are a liar.

The Nazi reference was from another interview and "people in this country have had enough of experts" is verbatim what he says in that clip. The context only provides a slim qualification of which experts he is talking about.

No, he is saying they have had enough of a subset of experts and is shouted down mid sentence. Your point is on a primary school playground level of silliness.

It's equivalent to Boris Johnson's "F*** business". He obviously doesn't mean all business but just those businesses that are frustrating his plans. The fact that he qualifies it does not make it illegitimate to shorten it to the sound-bite.

Um, they way you have described it it very much would make it unreasonable however (at least for anyone not indulging in political spin like an opposition are expected to do) - if you are knowingly pretending they are saying something they did not say, that's nonsense. We see it all the time (in fairness Corbyn himself has on occasion been on the receiving end of this) where opponents go 'X said Y, which really means Z, which is terrible'. Truncating someone's words to make it a more extreme point than was the case is misrepresentation of that person. Sure, if someone is careless enough to give the impression of a more extreme point that is partly on them, but it doesn't make it true to suggest that false impression is true.

From reports I thought the Boris quote was him being a silly fool, but from your words I now know that he was being a silly fool, but people are misrepresenting the extent of that foolishness. So now I am inclined to go easier on him.

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1015665066832809985

Sadly, Brexiters failed to come up with a viable alternative, having spent the past two years accusing everyone else of sabotage while wanking furiously to the sound of Land of Hope and Glory.

As everyone has noted above, the EU will refuse to budge (much) on FOM, and without that we are out of the single market and therefore starving the golden goose of the U.K. economy: service exports.

The only way out of this mess is a Vote on the Deal, once we have finished “negotiations” with the EU.

Except there seems every chance a vote (by which I assume you mean nationwide referendum) on the deal would see it voted down and an exit to WTO terms.

Only a madman would enable such a referendum. There is no desire in the country for WTO, and only a small minority of nutters in Parliament would actually countenance such a path.

The vote on the Deal should be, endorse May’s negotiated Brexit or Remain.

But it won't be. I am afraid there are too many people on this board who allow the wish to be father to the thought on this.

We are leaving. That was settled in 2016 and is therefore not the question any more. The question is what terms we leave on.

It is beginning to be a matter of serious concern to me that the UK, having voted to leave the EU, may find itself trapped. No doubt many of our people would rejoice at that outcome.

What is such a serious concern is that, if our attempt to leave fails, the EU demonstrates itself to be a deadly embrace. Any other country whose citizens decided it must leave would know in advance it cannot be done via peaceful negotiation.

Good evening, everyone.

kle4 said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1015668433613148160

Even supposing she doesn't fire them if they break the pact, how can any of them be trusted if they do so? They were publicly confirmed to support this position, a final position, only by claiming idiocy can they now say they do not, in fact, support it as it is not what they thought it was, or they now see the light about its awfulness.

It does seem telling though if they have all been quiet. Having been associated with it as a united Cabinet, not being supportive of it right away smacks of waiting to see the reaction of the ERG crowd, and any sudden poll movements perhaps, so they can indeed back out.

But I don't see how anyone who was in that room and emerged from it still in the Cabinet after agreeing this deal, can repudiate it and have any credibility as a leadership candidate ever again, so any challenge to May would need to coalesce around someone like Rees Mogg.

"The Pact" will not survive first contact with the EU. At which point, all Brexiteers will vocally say "told yer...." May can't fire them all for that...at which point, they can expan their arguments and she has lost.

williamglenn said:

Scott_P said:

Gove is on Marr tomorrow.

Will he give Brexiteers the Boris treatment?

"People in this country have had enough of Remainers."

Corrected it for you

GIN1138 said:

MikeL said:

Remember all the posts on here when Cameron backed gay marriage - all the headbanging diehards would never vote Con again and he'd be thrown out at the next GE.

Action replay now taking place.

Of course many people feel very passionately and many people are very upset. But that doesn't mean that all political reason will be thrown out of the window.

The best guide to the political effect of what happened last night is that it wasn't even the lead story on most of the tabloids.

I think subverting the biggest ever democratic vote in the UK's history is a tad more serious than gay marriage - Which was in any case a manifesto commitment - Who can be critical of a government enacting it's manifesto?

If only Theresa May was prepared to stick by her manifesto...

Gay Marriage wasn't in the 2010 Tory manifesto, it was Cameron's personal initiative.

AnneJGP said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1015665066832809985

Sadly, Brexiters failed to come up with a viable alternative, having spent the past two years accusing everyone else of sabotage while wanking furiously to the sound of Land of Hope and Glory.

As everyone has noted above, the EU will refuse to budge (much) on FOM, and without that we are out of the single market and therefore starving the golden goose of the U.K. economy: service exports.

The only way out of this mess is a Vote on the Deal, once we have finished “negotiations” with the EU.

Except there seems every chance a vote (by which I assume you mean nationwide referendum) on the deal would see it voted down and an exit to WTO terms.

Only a madman would enable such a referendum. There is no desire in the country for WTO, and only a small minority of nutters in Parliament would actually countenance such a path.

The vote on the Deal should be, endorse May’s negotiated Brexit or Remain.

But it won't be. I am afraid there are too many people on this board who allow the wish to be father to the thought on this.

We are leaving. That was settled in 2016 and is therefore not the question any more. The question is what terms we leave on.

It is beginning to be a matter of serious concern to me that the UK, having voted to leave the EU, may find itself trapped. No doubt many of our people would rejoice at that outcome.

What is such a serious concern is that, if our attempt to leave fails, the EU demonstrates itself to be a deadly embrace. Any other country whose citizens decided it must leave would know in advance it cannot be done via peaceful negotiation.

Good evening, everyone.

Except this is not true.
The choice is ours in terms of whether to engage like Norway, as a member of the EEA, or perhaps like Switzerland, via bilateral arrangements. Both options are still open to us, as is a full withdrawal to WTO.

Obviously what we can’t do is pretend the EU doesn’t exist. This “deadly embrace” is toddler tantrum stuff.

Serbian goalie "crocked".....maybe.

dr_spyn said:

Croatian goalie appears to be in some trouble with a hamstring.

I wondered if they had used all their subs and have to wait for extra time.

Re the Three Lions video in the header: "that tackle by Moore" was against Jairzinho not Pele. The Banks save was from Pele. Here is 90 seconds of Bobby Moore in that Brazil game, including that tackle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75vph68v9og

Sandpit said:

david_herdson said:

dr_spyn said:

I wonder if any weddings had football loving organists playing for them today.

found this on youtube 3 Lions from Christ Church College, Oxford. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnS1sTCy1ZU

You know it's become A Thing when this happens:

ttps://twitter.com/richardbannan/status/1015174995037868032

Does anyone have footage of organists or ceremonial guards playing World in Motion?

Yep. I'm an organist (one of at least two here, evidently) and I'm intending to improvise on World in Motion at tomorrow's service. You're welcome to come and film if you like.

Great.....30 more minutes of this.......

If England can't beat either of these sides, they should probably walk into the Kremlin and ask for asylum.

Ishmael_Z said:

williamglenn said:

Ishmael_Z said:

williamglenn said:

Ishmael_Z said:

williamglenn said:

Words are a politician's tool and he chose those words very deliberately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA

What? Words are everyone's tool, and everybody chooses them carefully. And the words he "very deliberately chose" don't include the words you initially said he used. You are a liar.

The Nazi reference was from another interview and "people in this country have had enough of experts" is verbatim what he says in that clip. The context only provides a slim qualification of which experts he is talking about.

No, he is saying they have had enough of a subset of experts and is shouted down mid sentence. Your point is on a primary school playground level of silliness.

It's equivalent to Boris Johnson's "F*** business". He obviously doesn't mean all business but just those businesses that are frustrating his plans. The fact that he qualifies it does not make it illegitimate to shorten it to the sound-bite.

No, not a parallel. Johnson said fick business as a complete sentence. The proper analogy would be if Johnson had said "I don't like businesses which bully their staff and defraud the taxman" and Islam had jumped in before "which" and said oooh! He doesn't like businesses! He doesn't like businesses!

Not that I have any skin in the game (I cast the most unenthusiastic remain vote in the entire country because my unenfranchised son asked me too) but I am puzzled that you seem so convinced of the rightness of your cause but shore it up with such embarrassingly feeble arguments. And you can frot away as much as you like about that interview but you are sort of missing the point which is that, as DavidL suggests, it probably swung it for leave.

Condescending, patronising, arrogant, ignorant, it really ticked every box and reminded hundreds of thousands what sort of shits had known better than us about how to run our country for the last 40 years. It may just have been the difference.

Ishmael_Z said:

Johnson said fick business as a complete sentence.

How do you know?

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

Ishmael_Z said:

williamglenn said:

Words are a politician's tool and he chose those words very deliberately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA

What? Words are everyone's tool, and everybody chooses them carefully. And the words he "very deliberately chose" don't include the words you initially said he used. You are a liar.

Amazing from Gove. I wonder if he blushes when he watches it. He ought to be horse-whipped.

I don’t think that Faisal is given nearly enough credit in Leave’s victory. His performance was pivotal to my mind.

but Gove sounds like a moron. 'My Dad was a fisherman you know and the EU cost him dear that's how I know'. If that's the level of his argument we should owe Faisal a debt of gratitude for exposing the humbug. As it happens the audience seemed to have already made up their minds.

But I'd be surprised if politics students aren't still pondering why such a senior politician was allowed to get away with such distortion immediately before a crucial referendum.

I know the Scottish Fishing Community well as most of my wife's family have been fishermen and you seem to have no idea how angry the Fishing Community in Scotland is against the EU. Indeed that is why so many of them have Scottish Conservative MP's

MarqueeMark said:

Great.....30 more minutes of this.......

If England can't beat either of these sides, they should probably walk into the Kremlin and ask for asylum.

I think Croatia have looked quite good. Modric in particular.

So Croatia are going into a penalty shootout with a goalkeeper who has damaged his hamstring. Interesting. In a slightly delusional kind of way.

Few Croatia bookings of players already on yellows wouldn't go amiss.

What a knob! Rees Mogg pondering in front of the cameras what his next move should be!

He projects an image that must make 90% of Tories cringe

Croatia score

Croatia! Saw that in slow motion!

Goal Croatia.

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Few Croatia bookings of players already on yellows wouldn't go amiss.

They wipe all the yellows after this round. Crying Gazza can’t happen any more.

If you are already on a yellow and get booked in this game you miss the semi.

SeanT said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1015676558755983360

At first I thought TMay had managed to find the crap yet miracle deal everyone would grudgingly accept, as being tolerably better than even worse alternatives.

Now I have severe doubts. The EU *should* say Yes immediately (it's great for them) yet I can see them overplaying their hand, asking for more, and crashing it.

And lots and lots of Tory activists and members are going to hate it. And they will tell their MPs.

Chance of No Deal must now be near 50%?

Nobody gives a flying fuck. We are in the semis and no-one gives a crap about soft Brexit.

As I forecast.

Sandpit said:

DavidL said:

So Croatia are going into a penalty shootout with a goalkeeper who has damaged his hamstring. Interesting. In a slightly delusional kind of way.

Surely they’ll sub him at the last minute if he’s genuinely injured. Or maybe he’ll do a Bruce Grobbelaar.
Edit: could be moot now. Croatia score.

They’ve used their 4th sub. If Russia equalise they are stuck with him.

Anazina said:

SeanT said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1015676558755983360

At first I thought TMay had managed to find the crap yet miracle deal everyone would grudgingly accept, as being tolerably better than even worse alternatives.

Now I have severe doubts. The EU *should* say Yes immediately (it's great for them) yet I can see them overplaying their hand, asking for more, and crashing it.

And lots and lots of Tory activists and members are going to hate it. And they will tell their MPs.

Chance of No Deal must now be near 50%?

Nobody gives a flying fuck. We are in the semis and no-one gives a crap about soft Brexit.

As I forecast.

The World Cup ends next Sunday. Brexit will go on for a while longer!

surby said:

Casino_Royale said:

Gardenwalker said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1015665066832809985

Sadly, Brexiters failed to come up with a viable alternative, having spent the past two years accusing everyone else of sabotage while wanking furiously to the sound of Land of Hope and Glory.

As everyone has noted above, the EU will refuse to budge (much) on FOM, and without that we are out of the single market and therefore starving the golden goose of the U.K. economy: service exports.

The only way out of this mess is a Vote on the Deal, once we have finished “negotiations” with the EU.

Except there seems every chance a vote (by which I assume you mean nationwide referendum) on the deal would see it voted down and an exit to WTO terms.

Only a madman would enable such a referendum. There is no desire in the country for WTO, and only a small minority of nutters in Parliament would actually countenance such a path.

The vote on the Deal should be, endorse May’s negotiated Brexit or Remain.

But it won't be. I am afraid there are too many people on this board who allow the wish to be father to the thought on this.

We are leaving. That was settled in 2016 and is therefore not the question any more. The question is what terms we leave on.

I am not predicting, simply noting it as a route out of this mess.

The terms we leave on ultimately come down to Mrs May’s willingness to eat FOM in exchange for privileged access to the single market. It’s as simple as that.

It depends how theological the EU want to be but, logically, FOM should be a dealbreaker for services but not goods.

Why ? "The European Single Market, Internal Market or Common Market is a single market which seeks to guarantee the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour – the "four freedoms" – within the European Union (EU)."

Except we don't have as much of some as others, and we basically invested capital in the 1980s.

Something like 80% of goods are traded under common standards, whereas it's 2% for services.

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Sandpit said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Few Croatia bookings of players already on yellows wouldn't go amiss.

They wipe all the yellows after this round. Crying Gazza can’t happen any more.

If you are already on a yellow and get booked in this game you miss the semi.

I read that rule as saying that you couldn’t miss the semi or the final, but on further digging it appears you’re right. So let’s hope Croatia win and the match finishes with a massive brawl

I know they have done it so unless you get sent off you can’t miss the final, but seems like they should reset them earlier or 3 yellows for a ban (and no reset).

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

DavidL said:

So Croatia are going into a penalty shootout with a goalkeeper who has damaged his hamstring. Interesting. In a slightly delusional kind of way.

Surely they’ll sub him at the last minute if he’s genuinely injured. Or maybe he’ll do a Bruce Grobbelaar.
Edit: could be moot now. Croatia score.

They’ve used their 4th sub. If Russia equalise they are stuck with him.

Ah, so they’d need to use one of the 10 men already on the pitch as the goalie.
Forgive me, it’s after midnight in the sandpit.

Ishmael_Z said:

williamglenn said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Johnson said fick business as a complete sentence.

How do you know?

Widespread and apparently credible reports not denied by Johnson.

Johnson said he was talking about "some of those who profess to speak up for business".

Russian equaliser.

Amazing

I thought Brazil were out already?

Incredible play by Russia. It seemed inevitable they'd get an equaliser.

that's Russia through he cant save any penalties he can hardly move

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

DavidL said:

So Croatia are going into a penalty shootout with a goalkeeper who has damaged his hamstring. Interesting. In a slightly delusional kind of way.

Surely they’ll sub him at the last minute if he’s genuinely injured. Or maybe he’ll do a Bruce Grobbelaar.
Edit: could be moot now. Croatia score.

They’ve used their 4th sub. If Russia equalise they are stuck with him.

Ah, so they’d need to use one of the 10 men already on the pitch as the goalie.
Forgive me, it’s after midnight in the sandpit.

May not be a problem. Russia look knackered.

You were saying?

Made a tidy sum trading off the highs and lows of Croatia and Russia on Betfair the last 20 minutes.