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+1Cookie said:
Just to play Devil's advocate: in the 1960s, rail was struggling to compete with bus on journeys of under 50 miles. Rail was inflexible, expensive, infrequent, dirty and not particularly fast. There was no reason obvious at the time to retain most stopping services. Few at the time anticipated how traffic congestion would grow and give railback an advantage. I regret the closures - many of the lines would now be viable, and many of those that wouldn't be be lovely to have for sentimental reasons - but I sympathise with the reasons for their closure.JosiasJessop said:
I might be wrong, but I don't think Bourne End to High Wycombe was in the Beeching Report for closure.GarethoftheVale2 said:Regarding Dr Beeching, some of the lines definitely were duplicates and should have been closed like the bonkers Taff Vale Extension railway but the cuts went too far and this is causing problems now.
A good example is the closure of the Wycombe railway from Bourne End to High Wycombe. It is only about 5 miles so can't have cost very much but would be a very useful link between the Greast West and Chiltern mainlines.
Bucks CC are now talking about a reopening but the problem is that some of the former alignment has been built on. If they had closed the routes and safeguarded the alignments there wouldn't be such a problem reopening.
This is a little annoyance about Beeching: he gets blamed for all line closures, when many occurred before and after his report. Also, some lines he signalled for closure remained open, whilst others that should have remained open under his plan were closed.
He only gave recommendations, and it was up to the government to decide - and both Labour and Conservative governments did so. He was political cover.
In much of rural Britain, bus is still better at getting you from A to B than the defunct rail lines ever were.
(And I am a rail enthusiast).0 -
Moscow is (currently) a hostile foreign power. Brussels is us.SandyRentool said:
So is being a Moscow stooge worse than being a Brussels stooge?williamglenn said:
It's quite a propaganda feat for Russia to have simultaneously seduced far-right stooges around the world while keeping their traditional cohort of far-left ones on board.Gardenwalker said:Sad to see Thornberry join the far left, Putin-stooges.
I suppose the fact that most of them are incredibly ignorant about Russia helps.
And I speak as a Russophile who regrets the current schism.0 -
I didn't take it as a parochial comment, just simple fact.Cookie said:
I wasn't trying to be parochial about it! All I meant by being a bigger attractor was that it had more jobs. I make no other judgement on the rival claims of the two cities! (Though I did live in Nottingham for ten years.)Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:JosiasJessop said:Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
It reminds me of this classic story.
Episode 1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/3412149.stm
Episode 2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2006/12/07/rename_nottingham_ema_feature.shtml0 -
Given comments by some on here about the Syrian White Helmets, I found the following of interest;williamglenn said:
It's quite a propaganda feat for Russia to have simultaneously seduced far-right stooges around the world while keeping their traditional cohort of far-left ones on board.Gardenwalker said:Sad to see Thornberry join the far left, Putin-stooges.
I suppose the fact that most of them are incredibly ignorant about Russia helps.
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/18/05/12/0212244/russian-fake-news-ecosystem-targets-syrian-human-rights-workers0 -
I doubt it, pensioners have not voted Labour since 1997 just as 18 to 24s have not voted Tory since 1983murali_s said:
I agree - as far as age is concerned where does the ever-shifting boundary lie? Will the under 40s carry their Labour affiliation forward as they age?HYUFD said:Age is now the key determinant of how we vote, then whether we live in rural areas, suburbs or the inner city and university towns then class. Class is now far less a predictor of voting intention than it was half a century ago
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Dunno. Is the EU murdering its critics, propping up a regime that uses chemical weopons in the Middle East, and responsible for widespread propaganda designed to destabilise its opponents?SandyRentool said:
So is being a Moscow stooge worse than being a Brussels stooge?williamglenn said:
It's quite a propaganda feat for Russia to have simultaneously seduced far-right stooges around the world while keeping their traditional cohort of far-left ones on board.Gardenwalker said:Sad to see Thornberry join the far left, Putin-stooges.
I suppose the fact that most of them are incredibly ignorant about Russia helps.0 -
Loughborough is the obvious neutral capital located between the 3 rival cities. Plus it has 'The Sock'.JosiasJessop said:
Nah. Derby's the true regional capital.Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:
I actually wrote a dissertation 10 years ago comparing the fortunes of Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire in reopening their respective railway lines and the economics of reopening railway lines in general. Conclusion: there are lots of factors. But the biggest and simplest is that the Robin Hood line serves a far larger population than the Ivanhoe line; and that Nottingham is a bigger attractor than Leicester. We cometimes forget how small the small towns of middle England are, and how little traffic each small town generates.JosiasJessop said:
The Ivanhoe Line (Burton to Leicester) has been talked about for a couple of decades, and as far as I'm aware, after a couple of local station openings, the project has stalled (ISTR that mining subsidence in the ?Ashby? area is a significant issue, as is the cost of resignalling).Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
I've also heard of no *serious* proposals on the Nottingham to Melton line - and users of the Lady Bay Bridge in Nottingham may not be best pleased ...
This is annoying, as all of Leicester to Burton, and most of Nottingham to Melton, are intact lines (the former for freight, the latter as a test track). If these cannot be economically reopened, there is little chance of serious re openings of lines that are not mostly extant.
I do think the Robin hood line extension (I think again partly along a test track) is the most likely of the three projects to go ahead.
Railway economics is an absolutely fascinating subject.
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The Russians would have a case, if the Baltic States were a threat. But, they are entirely harmless, and not remotely capable of harming Russia. They have penny packets of soldiers, and just want to be left alone.Gardenwalker said:
I’ve never got the pro-Russian line.Sean_F said:
It's odd that people who consider themselves to be anti-imperialist will make an exception for Russian imperialism.CarlottaVance said:Seamus has got them into line:
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/996764866978426880?s=20
The Baltics actually want us there. It’s Russia they’re afraid of. What moral or lawful right does Russia have from preventing those countries from joining NATO?
None.
Less than none, given the record of Soviet imperialism.
Sad to see Thornberry join the far left, Putin-stooges.
In other news:
https://twitter.com/billbrowder/status/996700056471396352?s=210 -
On Russia, the Italian government-in-waiting is in favour of dropping sanctions against Russia.
Russia has done an extraordinary job of suborning certain individuals and parties across the West. You have to hand it to them.0 -
Third world is Rome to Sorrento. Venice to Rome, first class, on my honeymoon, was as good as anything in Germany. Continuing the journey to Sorrento was something else entirely.Richard_Tyndall said:
If you think our railways are third world then you have led an incredibly sheltered life. Either that or Sri Lanka has some extraordinarily advanced railways compared to the rest of India.murali_s said:So, the nationalisation of our Third World railway has begun - under a Tory Government!!
Love it!!0 -
I can't reveal all due to commercial confidentiality, but the germans just love doing business with russians.Gardenwalker said:On Russia, the Italian government-in-waiting is in favour of dropping sanctions against Russia.
Russia has done an extraordinary job of suborning certain individuals and parties across the West. You have to hand it to them.0 -
They've managed to do it because the discontent with the elites exists in the first place. In places like Italy the people are fed up of the cosy EUphile theocracy offered by the traditional parties. It gives the Russians an easy opening gambit, just as it did with Trump and, by the sounds of things, Brexit. The Russians haven't created anything, all they have done is take advantage of a situation that already exists to further their own aims.Gardenwalker said:On Russia, the Italian government-in-waiting is in favour of dropping sanctions against Russia.
Russia has done an extraordinary job of suborning certain individuals and parties across the West. You have to hand it to them.0 -
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.ydoethur said:
Which would undoubtedly be the optimum solution, and only not feasible because nobody on either side is willing to accept it.FF43 said:
Strangely, Israel's friends and foes have a shared interest in making the country to be exceptional. In my view it is a deeply mediocre country. Not uniquely awful, but awful enough for a large part of its inhabitants. If there is ever to be a "solution" in my view it is as a single state that stretches from the Mediterranean to the Jordan, that is neither Jewish nor Palestinian but which institutionalises the fact of there being about half of each,Cyclefree said:
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
But I think they prefer being disliked but alive to being victims (again) and dead or persecuted.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.0 -
On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.0 -
Thai’s dont, I understand, value Russian tourists highly.Pulpstar said:
I can't reveal all due to commercial confidentiality, but the germans just love doing business with russians.Gardenwalker said:On Russia, the Italian government-in-waiting is in favour of dropping sanctions against Russia.
Russia has done an extraordinary job of suborning certain individuals and parties across the West. You have to hand it to them.0 -
Fair points, Ms Cyclefree. You can’t blame them, especially after what happened in Middle Europe 1935-45
However, one wonders about some of the ‘Jews”. The Ethiopans yes, the Iraqis yes, but some of the recent European migrants are, I understand ‘barely’ Jewish.0 -
Ha! The Peak District is very pretty – and is mostly in the East Midlands.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.0 -
Loughborough is grim old place.SandyRentool said:
Loughborough is the obvious neutral capital located between the 3 rival cities. Plus it has 'The Sock'.JosiasJessop said:
Nah. Derby's the true regional capital.Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:
I actually wrote a dissertation 10 years ago comparing the fortunes of Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire in reopening their respective railway lines and the economics of reopening railway lines in general. Conclusion: there are lots of factors. But the biggest and simplest is that the Robin Hood line serves a far larger population than the Ivanhoe line; and that Nottingham is a bigger attractor than Leicester. We cometimes forget how small the small towns of middle England are, and how little traffic each small town generates.JosiasJessop said:
The Ivanhoe Line (Burton to Leicester) has been talked about for a couple of decades, and as far as I'm aware, after a couple of local station openings, the project has stalled (ISTR that mining subsidence in the ?Ashby? area is a significant issue, as is the cost of resignalling).Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
I've also heard of no *serious* proposals on the Nottingham to Melton line - and users of the Lady Bay Bridge in Nottingham may not be best pleased ...
This is annoying, as all of Leicester to Burton, and most of Nottingham to Melton, are intact lines (the former for freight, the latter as a test track). If these cannot be economically reopened, there is little chance of serious re openings of lines that are not mostly extant.
I do think the Robin hood line extension (I think again partly along a test track) is the most likely of the three projects to go ahead.
Railway economics is an absolutely fascinating subject.0 -
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
But I think they prefer being disliked but alive to being victims (again) and dead or persecuted.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.
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STEPHEN Lawrence’s close pal who was with him when he was murdered is being lined up to be the next Tory Mayor of London, The Sun can reveal.
Speaking exclusively to The Sun, gang crime campaigner Duwayne Brooks branded Labour's Sadiq Khan “the worst Mayor ever” as he revealed he has joined Theresa May’s party.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6304807/stephen-lawrence-pal-joins-the-tories-and-is-tipped-as-future-mayor-of-london-after-furious-blast-at-sadiq-khan/0 -
I'd not trade my part of The Rural Heart of England for any of the dumps that are our major cities.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.0 -
The Peak District is, I think, our only National Park which is in more than one region. It is certainly the only one in four different regions.Anazina said:
Ha! The Peak District is very pretty – and is mostly in the East Midlands.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.0 -
I guess it's all bongo-bongo land to some people...MTimT said:
I love that line 'Sri Lanka ... compared to the rest of India'Richard_Tyndall said:
If you think our railways are third world then you have led an incredibly sheltered life. Either that or Sri Lanka has some extraordinarily advanced railways compared to the rest of India.murali_s said:So, the nationalisation of our Third World railway has begun - under a Tory Government!!
Love it!!0 -
Yorkshire Dales is in more than one region.Cookie said:
The Peak District is, I think, our only National Park which is in more than one region. It is certainly the only one in four different regions.Anazina said:
Ha! The Peak District is very pretty – and is mostly in the East Midlands.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.
But the four region fact is clever!0 -
Thanks! And good point about the Dales.Anazina said:
Yorkshire Dales is in more than one region.Cookie said:
The Peak District is, I think, our only National Park which is in more than one region. It is certainly the only one in four different regions.Anazina said:
Ha! The Peak District is very pretty – and is mostly in the East Midlands.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.
But the four region fact is clever!
I love this place. If I was to trot out facts like that in the real world, people would look at me strangely.0 -
Didn't quite work out that way though for Jews living in Nazi Germany or Nazi occupied Europe though did it.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
But I think they prefer being disliked but alive to being victims (again) and dead or persecuted.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.
Hence the reason why they feel they need at least 1 country where they are a majority0 -
Genuine question: what is it about Russia that you like?williamglenn said:
Moscow is (currently) a hostile foreign power. Brussels is us.SandyRentool said:
So is being a Moscow stooge worse than being a Brussels stooge?williamglenn said:
It's quite a propaganda feat for Russia to have simultaneously seduced far-right stooges around the world while keeping their traditional cohort of far-left ones on board.Gardenwalker said:Sad to see Thornberry join the far left, Putin-stooges.
I suppose the fact that most of them are incredibly ignorant about Russia helps.
And I speak as a Russophile who regrets the current schism.0 -
Derbyshire encapsulates the heart of what England means in my opinion.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.0 -
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater right to live there than those who were there beforehand and who continue to live there.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
But I think they prefer being disliked but alive to being victims (again) and dead or persecuted.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.
While it was a convenient fiction for early Israeli leaders to describe Israel as "A land without a people for a people without a land" it is also a fiction to say that there were no Jews living in the land of Israel before the 20th century and that only the Palestinians have a claim to live there.
While I would like there to be a homeland for the Palestinians I simply will not support any solution which entails the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (or worse) of Jews. It might be easier for peace to be achieved if some of those groups complaining about Israel's behaviour explicitly forswore these as ambitions.
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I wouldn't normally quote the Sun but this is interesting:
"Stephen Lawrence pal Duwayne Brooks joins the Tories and is tipped as future Mayor of London after furious blast at Sadiq Khan"
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6304807/stephen-lawrence-pal-joins-the-tories-and-is-tipped-as-future-mayor-of-london-after-furious-blast-at-sadiq-khan/0 -
The East Midlands has plenty of interesting places to visit, like Dovedale, Lincoln, Rutland, Suthwell, Buxton, etc.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.0 -
What have the Tories got to lose?AndyJS said:I wouldn't normally quote the Sun but this is interesting:
"Stephen Lawrence pal Duwayne Brooks joins the Tories and is tipped as future Mayor of London after furious blast at Sadiq Khan"
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6304807/stephen-lawrence-pal-joins-the-tories-and-is-tipped-as-future-mayor-of-london-after-furious-blast-at-sadiq-khan/0 -
No it didn't work out for Jews in Nazi Germany. And you know what? It is utterly irrelevant to Israel. Countries are for those that live in them and not for ghosts, however outrageous the history. Sorry.HYUFD said:
Didn't quite work out that way though for Jews living in Nazi Germany or Nazi occupied Europe though did it.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
But I think they prefer being disliked but alive to being victims (again) and dead or persecuted.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.
Hence the reason why they feel they need at least 1 country where they are a majority0 -
IvanhoeJosiasJessop said:
The Ivanhoe Line (Burton to Leicester)Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
The Beeching Cuts were essentially an ass-covering exercise by government. Both Labour and the Conservatives wanted the railways to stop haemorrhaging money, and either could have stopped the closures if they had desired. In fact, they did in some cases (famously the loss-making Mid Wales line, which ran through several Labour constituencies). In other cases, lines that were not in the report were closed (e.g. Matlock to Buxton).
Don't blame Beeching: he did what his political masters asked of him. Although as Richard T says below, the data on which he made his decisions was limited, generally he got it right and there are far more lines rightfully closed - even with hindsight - than were wrongly closed.
Even the Great Central closure made sense at the time, as did the Waverley.
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
Chapter 1
In that pleasant district of merry England which is watered by the river Don, there extended in ancient times a large forest, covering the greater part of the beautiful hills and valleys which lie between Sheffield and the pleasant town of Doncaster. The remains of this extensive wood are still to be seen at the noble seats of Wentworth, of Wharncliffe Park, and around Rotherham. Here haunted of yore the fabulous Dragon of Wantley; here were fought many of the most desperate battles during the Civil Wars of the Roses; and here also flourished in ancient times those bands of gallant outlaws, whose deeds have been rendered so popular in English song.
Such being our chief scene ...
The Ivanhoe line runs Doncaster-Conisbrough-Rotherham-Sheffield.
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While I understand the attraction of Jerusalem and the Holy Land as the most romantically/historically/religiously perfect place for a Jewish state, I do wonder what the world would look like if Israel has been set up in, say, Namibia, or Western Australia, or Texas.Cyclefree said:
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater right to live there than those who were there beforehand and who continue to live there.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
But I think they prefer being disliked but alive to being victims (again) and dead or persecuted.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.
While it was a convenient fiction for early Israeli leaders to describe Israel as "A land without a people for a people without a land" it is also a fiction to say that there were no Jews living in the land of Israel before the 20th century and that only the Palestinians have a claim to live there.
While I would like there to be a homeland for the Palestinians I simply will not support any solution which entails the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (or worse) of Jews. It might be easier for peace to be achieved if some of those groups complaining about Israel's behaviour explicitly forswore these as ambitions.0 -
It’s not easy though is it. Yes, the Jews were expelled by the Romans but were they all? How many ‘Arabs’ are the descendants of Jews who for whatever reason managed to stay?Cyclefree said:
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater right to live there than those who were there beforehand and who continue to live there.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.
While it was a convenient fiction for early Israeli leaders to describe Israel as "A land without a people for a people without a land" it is also a fiction to say that there were no Jews living in the land of Israel before the 20th century and that only the Palestinians have a claim to live there.
While I would like there to be a homeland for the Palestinians I simply will not support any solution which entails the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (or worse) of Jews. It might be easier for peace to be achieved if some of those groups complaining about Israel's behaviour explicitly forswore these as ambitions.
The Jews are also defined by their religion, but people change their religion for a variety of reasons, including because it’s the religion of the conquerers. Paris was after all, well worth a Mass, and early Islam wasn’t too dissimilar from Judaism.
And anyway, the Arabs, Christian or Moslem have lived in Palestine for at least 1000 years; does that not give them some rights?
It’s a complex mess and taking rigid political positions doesn’t help.
0 -
But haven't you moved to Nottinghamshire ?Pulpstar said:
Derbyshire encapsulates the heart of what England means in my opinion.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.0 -
If that were any kind of point at all, it would have been a point in 1948 or thereabouts. The people who live in Israel today are on the whole Jews, and Jews are therefore who it is now for. We have to start from where we currently are.FF43 said:
No it didn't work out for Jews in Nazi Germany. And you know what? It is utterly irrelevant to Israel. Countries are for those that live in them and not for ghosts, however outrageous the history. Sorry.HYUFD said:
Didn't quite work out that way though for Jews living in Nazi Germany or Nazi occupied Europe though did it.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
But I think they prefer being disliked but alive to being victims (again) and dead or persecuted.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.
Hence the reason why they feel they need at least 1 country where they are a majority0 -
Brooks was once an LD Councillor and ran as an independent as recently as two weeks ago so he's the newest of converts. It hardly seems likely the Conservatives will see him as the standard bearer (or should that be human sacrifice) to stand against Khan in 2020.FrancisUrquhart said:STEPHEN Lawrence’s close pal who was with him when he was murdered is being lined up to be the next Tory Mayor of London, The Sun can reveal.
Speaking exclusively to The Sun, gang crime campaigner Duwayne Brooks branded Labour's Sadiq Khan “the worst Mayor ever” as he revealed he has joined Theresa May’s party.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6304807/stephen-lawrence-pal-joins-the-tories-and-is-tipped-as-future-mayor-of-london-after-furious-blast-at-sadiq-khan/
As for his attack on Khan over the "Gang Matrix", I don't really understand. The Matrix was apparently set up in 2012 when Boris was Mayor - did he know ? Apparently it's all Sadiq's fault because he is the current Mayor. That seems flimsy reasoning - there's a question to be asked about the role of the Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime and whether either the current incumbent, Sophie Linden, or her predecessor, Stephen Greenhalgh, were involved with or knew about the Matrix and its function.
There has been plenty of criticism of the Gangs Matrix within London but the Met have stood by its use.
0 -
A liberal secular state doesn't include the expulsion of Jews.Indeed it protects the right of Jews and others to exercise their beliefs in a non-discriminatory way. Nor does it result in the destruction of Israel, except to the extent it removes discrimination. There some substantial straw man arguments in there.Cyclefree said:
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater right to live there than those who were there beforehand and who continue to live there.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
But I think they prefer being disliked but alive to being victims (again) and dead or persecuted.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.
While it was a convenient fiction for early Israeli leaders to describe Israel as "A land without a people for a people without a land" it is also a fiction to say that there were no Jews living in the land of Israel before the 20th century and that only the Palestinians have a claim to live there.
While I would like there to be a homeland for the Palestinians I simply will not support any solution which entails the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (or worse) of Jews. It might be easier for peace to be achieved if some of those groups complaining about Israel's behaviour explicitly forswore these as ambitions.
It's also highly questionable to say Jews have lived longer in Israel/Palestine than Arabs. It has been an Arab majority state for most of the past two thousand years. (Not that any of this is a justification for any form of governance now).0 -
Cookie said:
Thanks! And good point about the Dales.Anazina said:
Yorkshire Dales is in more than one region.Cookie said:
The Peak District is, I think, our only National Park which is in more than one region. It is certainly the only one in four different regions.Anazina said:
Ha! The Peak District is very pretty – and is mostly in the East Midlands.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.
But the four region fact is clever!
I love this place. If I was to trot out facts like that in the real world, people would look at me strangely.
0 -
I don't know about you, but if there had been a systematic attempt in recent times to exterminate my own ethnic group, I'd want to make damn sure that a State existed where my ethnic group formed a clear majority.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
But I think they prefer being disliked but alive to being victims (again) and dead or persecuted.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.0 -
Economically dominated by a big city in a distant corner....Pulpstar said:
Derbyshire encapsulates the heart of what England means in my opinion.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.
But yes, I agree. It's a smahing place.0 -
Yep, but I've only been here a couple of months and don't really know it too well aside from my small part of Bassetlawanother_richard said:
But haven't you moved to Nottinghamshire ?Pulpstar said:
Derbyshire encapsulates the heart of what England means in my opinion.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.
The last place I visited for recreation was Hardwick Hall in err Derbyshire.0 -
I should think that will depend on if he is still with them come 2020 - I don't get the impression parties are sentimental about loyalty when it might conceivably be the difference between losing and winning (whether that is at all possible for the Tories in the current situation is a separate question). That he used to be a LD might be seen as a positive if they think he might open them up to the more liberally minded as well as their base. I have no idea if that is likely, or if it would be enough, but if he looks like he has a shot, that in itself would be enough for him to be the standard bearer, I should think.stodge said:
Brooks was once an LD Councillor and ran as an independent as recently as two weeks ago so he's the newest of converts. It hardly seems likely the Conservatives will see him as the standard bearer (or should that be human sacrifice) to stand against Khan in 2020.FrancisUrquhart said:STEPHEN Lawrence’s close pal who was with him when he was murdered is being lined up to be the next Tory Mayor of London, The Sun can reveal.
Speaking exclusively to The Sun, gang crime campaigner Duwayne Brooks branded Labour's Sadiq Khan “the worst Mayor ever” as he revealed he has joined Theresa May’s party.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6304807/stephen-lawrence-pal-joins-the-tories-and-is-tipped-as-future-mayor-of-london-after-furious-blast-at-sadiq-khan/0 -
Language, culture, history, people. Moscow is one of the most inspiring cities in the world and the country itself is a vast melting pot.Anorak said:
Genuine question: what is it about Russia that you like?williamglenn said:
Moscow is (currently) a hostile foreign power. Brussels is us.SandyRentool said:
So is being a Moscow stooge worse than being a Brussels stooge?williamglenn said:
It's quite a propaganda feat for Russia to have simultaneously seduced far-right stooges around the world while keeping their traditional cohort of far-left ones on board.Gardenwalker said:Sad to see Thornberry join the far left, Putin-stooges.
I suppose the fact that most of them are incredibly ignorant about Russia helps.
And I speak as a Russophile who regrets the current schism.0 -
In a former life, Derbyshire County Council was a client, and I travelled regularly to Matlock, which was lovely.Pulpstar said:
Yep, but I've only been here a couple of months and don't really know it too well aside from my small part of Bassetlawanother_richard said:
But haven't you moved to Nottinghamshire ?Pulpstar said:
Derbyshire encapsulates the heart of what England means in my opinion.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.
The last place I visited for recreation was Hardwick Hall in err Derbyshire.
I remember asking one Director if she was from Derbyshire. She looked at me with horror.
“Good God, no! I’m from Nottinghamshire.”0 -
Saying someone is the worst Mayor ever seems far from wise too. I'd find it pretty hard even to describe SK as a bad Mayor, although I'm all over 'indifferent'.stodge said:
Brooks was once an LD Councillor and ran as an independent as recently as two weeks ago so he's the newest of converts. It hardly seems likely the Conservatives will see him as the standard bearer (or should that be human sacrifice) to stand against Khan in 2020.FrancisUrquhart said:STEPHEN Lawrence’s close pal who was with him when he was murdered is being lined up to be the next Tory Mayor of London, The Sun can reveal.
Speaking exclusively to The Sun, gang crime campaigner Duwayne Brooks branded Labour's Sadiq Khan “the worst Mayor ever” as he revealed he has joined Theresa May’s party.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6304807/stephen-lawrence-pal-joins-the-tories-and-is-tipped-as-future-mayor-of-london-after-furious-blast-at-sadiq-khan/
As for his attack on Khan over the "Gang Matrix", I don't really understand. The Matrix was apparently set up in 2012 when Boris was Mayor - did he know ? Apparently it's all Sadiq's fault because he is the current Mayor. That seems flimsy reasoning - there's a question to be asked about the role of the Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime and whether either the current incumbent, Sophie Linden, or her predecessor, Stephen Greenhalgh, were involved with or knew about the Matrix and its function.
There has been plenty of criticism of the Gangs Matrix within London but the Met have stood by its use.
London is far too important to have novice politicians running for the Mayoralty. (I know some will suggest Boris was and is a politician still with his stabiliser wheels, but it's not really fair)
The right candidate could win for the Tories even given their poor ratings in London overall. Zac Goldsmith was the wrong candidate, so it should be easy to find someone a little better, but finding the person that can win is a challenge - I'm pretty sure they're out there though.0 -
Revealing facts about auditors:
' Concentration in this market has now reached absurd levels – the big four are auditors to 97% of FTSE 350 companies. Carillion perfectly illustrated the closed shop in action. KMPG approved the accounts, Deloitte advised the board on risk management, and EY was consulted on turnaround plans. That left the field clear for PwC to name its price as adviser to the Official Receiver. '
https://www.theguardian.com/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2018/may/16/entire-system-failed-carillion-not-just-directors-at-the-top
The breaking up of the big audit firms is long overdue0 -
OldKingCole said:
It’s not easy though is it. Yes, the Jews were expelled by the Romans but were they all? How many ‘Arabs’ are the descendants of Jews who for whatever reason managed to stay?Cyclefree said:
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater right to live there than those who were there beforehand and who continue to live there.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
While it was a convenient fiction for early Israeli leaders to describe Israel as "A land without a people for a people without a land" it is also a fiction to say that there were no Jews living in the land of Israel before the 20th century and that only the Palestinians have a claim to live there.
While I would like there to be a homeland for the Palestinians I simply will not support any solution which entails the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (or worse) of Jews. It might be easier for peace to be achieved if some of those groups complaining about Israel's behaviour explicitly forswore these as ambitions.
The Jews are also defined by their religion, but people change their religion for a variety of reasons, including because it’s the religion of the conquerers. Paris was after all, well worth a Mass, and early Islam wasn’t too dissimilar from Judaism.
And anyway, the Arabs, Christian or Moslem have lived in Palestine for at least 1000 years; does that not give them some rights?
It’s a complex mess and taking rigid political positions doesn’t help.
Indeed, Arabs do have some rights and that is why I would very much like there to be a Palestinian state alongside Israel. This was on offer in 1948 and also when Clinton pushed his peace plan. It has been a tragedy that Palestinian leadership has been so poor that in seeking everything during the last 70 years and befoehanded it has ended up with nothing. It is now facing an Israeli leadership which does have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process. In that sense, Israeli leaders have become more Middle Eastern - focusing more on "might is right" than is wise.
As you say, a complex mess.
But if insisting on the survival - rather than the destruction - of Israel is deemed to be taking a rigid political position, then I am happy to plead guilty. Some things are non-negotiable and in my book the survival of Israel is one of them.0 -
The Peak District is stunning.Gardenwalker said:
In a former life, Derbyshire County Council was a client, and I travelled regularly to Matlock, which was lovely.Pulpstar said:
Yep, but I've only been here a couple of months and don't really know it too well aside from my small part of Bassetlawanother_richard said:
But haven't you moved to Nottinghamshire ?Pulpstar said:
Derbyshire encapsulates the heart of what England means in my opinion.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.
The last place I visited for recreation was Hardwick Hall in err Derbyshire.
I remember asking one Director if she was from Derbyshire. She looked at me with horror.
“Good God, no! I’m from Nottinghamshire.”0 -
Martin Sixsmith wrote a very entertaining book about Russian History. I can't remember the title, but it ought to have been '1,000 years of unrelenting bloody misery'. The lot of a Russian appears never to have been a happy one.williamglenn said:
Language, culture, history, people. Moscow is one of the most inspiring cities in the world and the country itself is a vast melting pot.Anorak said:
Genuine question: what is it about Russia that you like?williamglenn said:
Moscow is (currently) a hostile foreign power. Brussels is us.SandyRentool said:
So is being a Moscow stooge worse than being a Brussels stooge?williamglenn said:
It's quite a propaganda feat for Russia to have simultaneously seduced far-right stooges around the world while keeping their traditional cohort of far-left ones on board.Gardenwalker said:Sad to see Thornberry join the far left, Putin-stooges.
I suppose the fact that most of them are incredibly ignorant about Russia helps.
And I speak as a Russophile who regrets the current schism.0 -
Indeed so. I've lived in the East Midlands for the vast majority of my life and love the area. I grew up in Nottinghamshire and have spent most of my adult life in Lincolnshire (and much of that in Lincoln itself). Only my university years (in North Wales) interrupted my time in the region.AndyJS said:
The East Midlands has plenty of interesting places to visit, like Dovedale, Lincoln, Rutland, Suthwell, Buxton, etc.
0 -
Who said anything about it being okay to shoot people? The Israelis may be defending what happened; I'm certainly not. I'm asking why bring the Nazis into it. You've got to be a proper Ken to think that's okay.Richard_Tyndall said:
To repeat what I said on the last thread. Based on their actions at the moment they deserve to be pretty fucking insulted. And that is a very weird attitude. Its okay to shoot people but not to insult them?JonnyJimmy said:fpt..
Why does criticism of Israel ever need to contain reference to the Nazis?Richard_Tyndall said:
No matter how much their supporters try to make it so, Israel and Judaism are not synonymous. Indeed plenty of Orthodox Jews claim the existence of Israel is against Jewish teachings.DecrepitJohnL said:
The more-or-less official definition of antisemitism includes drawing parallels with the Nazis.justin124 said:I see that a Labour councillor in Oxford has had the whip withdrawn for tweeting picures of children being threatened by armed soldiers. One picture showed a Nazi soldier from World War 2 whilst another showed an Israeli doing something similar a mere few days ago. Personally , I feel his point is well made by those photos - and fail to see how producing them amounts to Anti-Semitism at all. At the end of the day, Netanyahu is little better than Himmler et al.
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
To claim that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic is merely a way to shut down debate.
Not being imaginative enough to think up different shits to compare Jewish people to than the shits that actually tried to exterminate them all is pretty fucking insulting.0 -
A liberal secular state. Like France for instance. Where despite it being both liberal and secular the rights of Jews have not, in practice, been protected. They cannot, for instance, go round in public wearing the kippah because of the risk of being attacked for being Jewish. They have to have armed guards protecting schools and places of worship.FF43 said:
A liberal secular state doesn't include the expulsion of Jews.Indeed it protects the right of Jews and others to exercise their beliefs in a non-discriminatory way. Nor does it result in the destruction of Israel, except to the extent it removes discrimination. There some substantial straw man arguments in there.Cyclefree said:
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater right to live there than those who were there beforehand and who continue to live there.FF43 said:
While it was a convenient fiction for early Israeli leaders to describe Israel as "A land without a people for a people without a land" it is also a fiction to say that there were no Jews living in the land of Israel before the 20th century and that only the Palestinians have a claim to live there.
While I would like there to be a homeland for the Palestinians I simply will not support any solution which entails the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (or worse) of Jews. It might be easier for peace to be achieved if some of those groups complaining about Israel's behaviour explicitly forswore these as ambitions.
It's also highly questionable to say Jews have lived longer in Israel/Palestine than Arabs. It has been an Arab majority state for most of the past two thousand years. (Not that any of this is a justification for any form of governance now).
And if that is the position in France (and see what is also happening in Germany) it is simply naive to think that a liberal secular state populated by Jews and Arabs could be created and survive in the Middle East, at least in the world as it is now.0 -
It's a shame it's being run by villains and despots.williamglenn said:
Language, culture, history, people. Moscow is one of the most inspiring cities in the world and the country itself is a vast melting pot.Anorak said:
Genuine question: what is it about Russia that you like?williamglenn said:
Moscow is (currently) a hostile foreign power. Brussels is us.SandyRentool said:
So is being a Moscow stooge worse than being a Brussels stooge?williamglenn said:
It's quite a propaganda feat for Russia to have simultaneously seduced far-right stooges around the world while keeping their traditional cohort of far-left ones on board.Gardenwalker said:Sad to see Thornberry join the far left, Putin-stooges.
I suppose the fact that most of them are incredibly ignorant about Russia helps.
And I speak as a Russophile who regrets the current schism.
And having been to Moscow a few times, I'd struggle to call it inspiring
St Petersburg, though...0 -
The end of Israel would not mean the creation of a secular democracy. It would mean the end of its Jewish population.Cyclefree said:OldKingCole said:
It’s not easy though is it. Yes, the Jews were expelled by the Romans but were they all? How many ‘Arabs’ are the descendants of Jews who for whatever reason managed to stay?Cyclefree said:
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater who continue to live there.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
While it was a convenient fiction for early Israeli leaders to describe Israel as "A land without a people for a people without a land" it is also a fiction to say that there were no Jews living in the land of
While I would like there to be a homeland for the Palestinians I simply will not support any solution which entails the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (or worse) of Jews. It might be easier for peace to be achieved if some of those groups complaining about Israel's behaviour explicitly forswore these as ambitions.
The Jews are also defined by their religion, but people change their religion for a variety of reasons, including because it’s the religion of the conquerers. Paris was after all, well worth a Mass, and early Islam wasn’t too dissimilar from Judaism.
And anyway, the Arabs, Christian or Moslem have lived in Palestine for at least 1000 years; does that not give them some rights?
It’s a complex mess and taking rigid political positions doesn’t help.
Indeed, Arabs do have some rights and that is why I would very much like there to be a Palestinian state alongside Israel. This was on offer in 1948 and also when Clinton pushed his peace plan. It has been a tragedy that Palestinian leadership has been so poor that in seeking everything during the last 70 years and befoehanded it has ended up with nothing. It is now facing an Israeli leadership which does have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process. In that sense, Israeli leaders have become more Middle Eastern - focusing more on "might is right" than is wise.
As you say, a complex mess.
But if insisting on the survival - rather than the destruction - of Israel is deemed to be taking a rigid political position, then I am happy to plead guilty. Some things are non-negotiable and in my book the survival of Israel is one of them.
0 -
The sudden change between suburban Sheffield and the Peak District is very striking.Sean_F said:
The Peak District is stunning.Gardenwalker said:
In a former life, Derbyshire County Council was a client, and I travelled regularly to Matlock, which was lovely.Pulpstar said:
Yep, but I've only been here a couple of months and don't really know it too well aside from my small part of Bassetlawanother_richard said:
But haven't you moved to Nottinghamshire ?Pulpstar said:
Derbyshire encapsulates the heart of what England means in my opinion.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.
The last place I visited for recreation was Hardwick Hall in err Derbyshire.
I remember asking one Director if she was from Derbyshire. She looked at me with horror.
“Good God, no! I’m from Nottinghamshire.”0 -
No problem with the survival of some form of Jewish state; not necessarily Israel as presently understood.Cyclefree said:OldKingCole said:
It’s not easy though is it. Yes, the Jews were expelled by the Romans but were they all? How many ‘Arabs’ are the descendants of Jews who for whatever reason managed to stay?Cyclefree said:
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater right to live there than those who were there beforehand and who continue to live there.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
The Jews are also defined by their religion, but people change their religion for a variety of reasons, including because it’s the religion of the conquerers. Paris was after all, well worth a Mass, and early Islam wasn’t too dissimilar from Judaism.
And anyway, the Arabs, Christian or Moslem have lived in Palestine for at least 1000 years; does that not give them some rights?
It’s a complex mess and taking rigid political positions doesn’t help.
Indeed, Arabs do have some rights and that is why I would very much like there to be a Palestinian state alongside Israel. This was on offer in 1948 and also when Clinton pushed his peace plan. It has been a tragedy that Palestinian leadership has been so poor that in seeking everything during the last 70 years and befoehanded it has ended up with nothing. It is now facing an Israeli leadership which does have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process. In that sense, Israeli leaders have become more Middle Eastern - focusing more on "might is right" than is wise.
As you say, a complex mess.
But if insisting on the survival - rather than the destruction - of Israel is deemed to be taking a rigid political position, then I am happy to plead guilty. Some things are non-negotiable and in my book the survival of Israel is one of them.
However, did you mean what you wrote when you wrote: 'It i(presumably the 'Arab state’) is now facing an Israeli leadership which does have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process.’
I really don’t get the impression that the Israeli leadership "does have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process.” I would have said ‘doesn’t. Not does,0 -
There are way too many cosy cartels in this country. It’s one of the key reasons that we suffer from low productivity, in my opinion.another_richard said:Revealing facts about auditors:
' Concentration in this market has now reached absurd levels – the big four are auditors to 97% of FTSE 350 companies. Carillion perfectly illustrated the closed shop in action. KMPG approved the accounts, Deloitte advised the board on risk management, and EY was consulted on turnaround plans. That left the field clear for PwC to name its price as adviser to the Official Receiver. '
https://www.theguardian.com/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2018/may/16/entire-system-failed-carillion-not-just-directors-at-the-top
The breaking up of the big audit firms is long overdue0 -
*snippety snip*
I read that as a typo!OldKingCole said:
However, did you mean what you wrote when you wrote: 'It i(presumably the 'Arab state’) is now facing an Israeli leadership which does have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process.’
I really don’t get the impression that the Israeli leadership "does have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process.” I would have said ‘doesn’t. Not does,0 -
+1Cyclefree said:
A liberal secular state. Like France for instance. Where despite it being both liberal and secular the rights of Jews have not, in practice, been protected. They cannot, for instance, go round in public wearing the kippah because of the risk of being attacked for being Jewish. They have to have armed guards protecting schools and places of worship.FF43 said:
A liberal secular state doesn't include the expulsion of Jews.Indeed it protects the right of Jews and others to exercise their beliefs in a non-discriminatory way. Nor does it result in the destruction of Israel, except to the extent it removes discrimination. There some substantial straw man arguments in there.Cyclefree said:
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater right to live there than those who were there beforehand and who continue to live there.FF43 said:
While it was a convenient fiction for early Israeli leaders to describe Israel as "A land without a people for a people without a land" it is also a fiction to say that there were no Jews living in the land of Israel before the 20th century and that only the Palestinians have a claim to live there.
While I would like there to be a homeland for the Palestinians I simply will not support any solution which entails the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (or worse) of Jews. It might be easier for peace to be achieved if some of those groups complaining about Israel's behaviour explicitly forswore these as ambitions.
It's also highly questionable to say Jews have lived longer in Israel/Palestine than Arabs. It has been an Arab majority state for most of the past two thousand years. (Not that any of this is a justification for any form of governance now).
And if that is the position in France (and see what is also happening in Germany) it is simply naive to think that a liberal secular state populated by Jews and Arabs could be created and survive in the Middle East, at least in the world as it is now.0 -
Not least in politics, of course. Prior to 2010 the last time we had a de jure two party government was 1964, the last time in practice we had a multiparty government was 1945, the last time a party other than Labour or the Conservatives/Unionists won over 100 seats was in 1923, the last time we had a government led by a party other than Labour or the Conservatives/Unionists was 1915 and the last time a party other than those two won an actual majority was 1906.Gardenwalker said:
There are way too many cosy cartels in this country. It’s one of the key reasons that we suffer from low productivity, in my opinion.another_richard said:Revealing facts about auditors:
' Concentration in this market has now reached absurd levels – the big four are auditors to 97% of FTSE 350 companies. Carillion perfectly illustrated the closed shop in action. KMPG approved the accounts, Deloitte advised the board on risk management, and EY was consulted on turnaround plans. That left the field clear for PwC to name its price as adviser to the Official Receiver. '
https://www.theguardian.com/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2018/may/16/entire-system-failed-carillion-not-just-directors-at-the-top
The breaking up of the big audit firms is long overdue0 -
Senate votes to save net neutrality rules
The Senate on Wednesday voted to reinstate the FCC's net neutrality rules, passing a bill that has little chance of advancing in the House but offers net neutrality supporters and Democrats a political rallying point for the midterm elections.0 -
I hoped it was, but wanted to be sure!Anorak said:*snippety snip*
I read that as a typo!OldKingCole said:
However, did you mean what you wrote when you wrote: 'It i(presumably the 'Arab state’) is now facing an Israeli leadership which does have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process.’
I really don’t get the impression that the Israeli leadership "does have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process.” I would have said ‘doesn’t. Not does,0 -
Here's why the Lib Dems are coming back in West Sheffield in one picture: https://tinyurl.com/y7ledoyj . I'm afraid alot of east Sheffield is still red rosette on an AMEY donkey van though.another_richard said:
The sudden change between suburban Sheffield and the Peak District is very striking.Sean_F said:
The Peak District is stunning.Gardenwalker said:
In a former life, Derbyshire County Council was a client, and I travelled regularly to Matlock, which was lovely.Pulpstar said:
Yep, but I've only been here a couple of months and don't really know it too well aside from my small part of Bassetlawanother_richard said:
But haven't you moved to Nottinghamshire ?Pulpstar said:
Derbyshire encapsulates the heart of what England means in my opinion.Gardenwalker said:On / off topic: all these railway discussions almost make me want to visit the East Midlands - surely the *least* glamorous of the English regions.
Robin Hood Line? Ivanhoe Line?
Stirring stuff.
The last place I visited for recreation was Hardwick Hall in err Derbyshire.
I remember asking one Director if she was from Derbyshire. She looked at me with horror.
“Good God, no! I’m from Nottinghamshire.”
To be honest the results were about as good as can be hoped for overall, only 40.1% of voters ticked the Labour box which is a minor miracle round those parts.0 -
Agreed. This seems like the Sol Campbell debacle all over again, IMO.stodge said:
Brooks was once an LD Councillor and ran as an independent as recently as two weeks ago so he's the newest of converts. It hardly seems likely the Conservatives will see him as the standard bearer (or should that be human sacrifice) to stand against Khan in 2020.FrancisUrquhart said:STEPHEN Lawrence’s close pal who was with him when he was murdered is being lined up to be the next Tory Mayor of London, The Sun can reveal.
Speaking exclusively to The Sun, gang crime campaigner Duwayne Brooks branded Labour's Sadiq Khan “the worst Mayor ever” as he revealed he has joined Theresa May’s party.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6304807/stephen-lawrence-pal-joins-the-tories-and-is-tipped-as-future-mayor-of-london-after-furious-blast-at-sadiq-khan/
As for his attack on Khan over the "Gang Matrix", I don't really understand. The Matrix was apparently set up in 2012 when Boris was Mayor - did he know ? Apparently it's all Sadiq's fault because he is the current Mayor. That seems flimsy reasoning - there's a question to be asked about the role of the Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime and whether either the current incumbent, Sophie Linden, or her predecessor, Stephen Greenhalgh, were involved with or knew about the Matrix and its function.
There has been plenty of criticism of the Gangs Matrix within London but the Met have stood by its use.
0 -
I’m sure some of each. But Israel has a more robust approach than we do.DecrepitJohnL said:
Active terrorists who were shooting or planting bombs when shot, or members of a terrorist organisation. It's not quite the same thing. Shades of recent Nobel peace prize winners defining terrorists as anyone killed by a drone.Charles said:
From a European / US perspective I would agree.AlastairMeeks said:
On your point, as you say, Israel seem to lack any kind of strategy here. It is worse than a crime, it is an error. In the long run, brute force is not going to be enough.
From the Israeli perspective they have an opponent who still challenges their right to exist.
I can quite see why they think that, until Hamas is willing to enter into meaningful negotiations, then to show (what they would view as) weakness is a mistake.
I would have thought (without being any more than an armchair general) it would be possible to control a demonstration with non-lethal forms of crowd control. But for 50 of the 62 fatalities to be members of Hamas (i.e. active terrorists) is a high strike rate.
But I think your comparison is unfair. Hamas has acknowledged Israel’s estimate to be correct0 -
Whilst I agree that is the case now, it certainly wasn't in the past. Leicester was the civitas capital in Iron Age and Roman times. That all changed when Danelaw came along and Nottingham took its place as one of the 5 towns of Danelaw.Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:
I actually wrote a dissertation 10 years ago comparing the fortunes of Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire in reopening their respective railway lines and the economics of reopening railway lines in general. Conclusion: there are lots of factors. But the biggest and simplest is that the Robin Hood line serves a far larger population than the Ivanhoe line; and that Nottingham is a bigger attractor than Leicester. We cometimes forget how small the small towns of middle England are, and how little traffic each small town generates.JosiasJessop said:
The Ivanhoe Line (Burton to Leicester) has been talked about for a couple of decades, and as far as I'm aware, after a couple of local station openings, the project has stalled (ISTR that mining subsidence in the ?Ashby? area is a significant issue, as is the cost of resignalling).Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
I've also heard of no *serious* proposals on the Nottingham to Melton line - and users of the Lady Bay Bridge in Nottingham may not be best pleased ...
This is annoying, as all of Leicester to Burton, and most of Nottingham to Melton, are intact lines (the former for freight, the latter as a test track). If these cannot be economically reopened, there is little chance of serious re openings of lines that are not mostly extant.
I do think the Robin hood line extension (I think again partly along a test track) is the most likely of the three projects to go ahead.
Railway economics is an absolutely fascinating subject.0 -
Hmm I'm not a massive fan of the big four and not bitter at all that PWC rejected my application about 15 years ago but I think people misunderstand the role of auditors... this sort of commentGardenwalker said:
There are way too many cosy cartels in this country. It’s one of the key reasons that we suffer from low productivity, in my opinion.another_richard said:Revealing facts about auditors:
' Concentration in this market has now reached absurd levels – the big four are auditors to 97% of FTSE 350 companies. Carillion perfectly illustrated the closed shop in action. KMPG approved the accounts, Deloitte advised the board on risk management, and EY was consulted on turnaround plans. That left the field clear for PwC to name its price as adviser to the Official Receiver. '
https://www.theguardian.com/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2018/may/16/entire-system-failed-carillion-not-just-directors-at-the-top
The breaking up of the big audit firms is long overdue
'Given the relative size of the goodwill in the Group balance sheet, particularly in the UK Services CGU, relatively small changes in these assumptions could give rise to material changes in the assessment of the carrying value of goodwill.' is a bit of a danger warning flag to anyone who cares to read the annual statement.
KPMG had a good few such statements in Carrillion's audit report.0 -
Wasn’t that the proposal made by Richard the Lionheart?FF43 said:
Strangely, Israel's friends and foes have a shared interest in making the country to be exceptional. In my view it is a deeply mediocre country. Not uniquely awful, but awful enough for a large part of its inhabitants. If there is ever to be a "solution" in my view it is as a single state that stretches from the Mediterranean to the Jordan, that is neither Jewish nor Palestinian but which institutionalises the fact of there being about half of each,Cyclefree said:
For some it may be a lack of imagination.
For some others it's a deliberately offensive insult.
And for yet some others it's a way of delegitimising the very concept of Israel, of a home for Jews. If that Jewish home is no better than Nazis, why would we want it to exist any more than we would want Nazism to exist?
Distinguishing between the unimaginatively offensive and those who have an agenda is increasingly tiresome.
There are plenty of good reasons for criticising what Israel does without needing to make hyperbolic, insulting and usually wholly untrue statements which tend to reflect badly on those making them and detract from the force or otherwise of the criticism.
But those who do the whole "Israel is the new Nazi Germany" shtick are following the dictum of that infamous Nazi, Goebbels, - "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
I think though Mr Tyndall is wrong in what he says: Israel - the land of Israel (rather than any political state) - is pretty central to Judaism, Jewish ceremonies and key Jewish religious remembrance days. Asking Jews to pretend that this is not so is like asking Muslims to pretend that Mecca is not central to their religion.
And, from the previous thread, on what has been happening in Gaza in recent days -
Even if most of those killed were members of Hamas Israel's actions seem to me (based only on what I have been reading) to be disproportionate, possibly crimes and foolish since they do nothing to calm an already inflamed and difficult situation and perpetuate a vicious cycle of grievance, martyrdom, reaction, defensiveness, aggression and fear.
I do not hold with the seemingly fashionable view that Israel is wholly to blame and wholly evil and the Palestinians are purely innocent victims. The situation is much more complicated. But Israel does not seem to me to have an intelligent long-term strategy and, as the stronger party, is behaving in a way which, quite apart from any other considerations, risks weakening its long-term position.
(Yes, seriously! Albeit Christians/Muslims/Jews)0 -
Interesting - thanksRichard_Tyndall said:
Whilst I agree that is the case now, it certainly wasn't in the past. Leicester was the civitas capital in Iron Age and Roman times. That all changed when Danelaw came along and Nottingham took its place as one of the 5 towns of Danelaw.Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:
I actually wrote a dissertation 10 years ago comparing the fortunes of Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire in reopening their respective railway lines and the economics of reopening railway lines in general. Conclusion: there are lots of factors. But the biggest and simplest is that the Robin Hood line serves a far larger population than the Ivanhoe line; and that Nottingham is a bigger attractor than Leicester. We cometimes forget how small the small towns of middle England are, and how little traffic each small town generates.JosiasJessop said:
The Ivanhoe Line (Burton to Leicester) has been talked about for a couple of decades, and as far as I'm aware, after a couple of local station openings, the project has stalled (ISTR that mining subsidence in the ?Ashby? area is a significant issue, as is the cost of resignalling).Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
I've also heard of no *serious* proposals on the Nottingham to Melton line - and users of the Lady Bay Bridge in Nottingham may not be best pleased ...
This is annoying, as all of Leicester to Burton, and most of Nottingham to Melton, are intact lines (the former for freight, the latter as a test track). If these cannot be economically reopened, there is little chance of serious re openings of lines that are not mostly extant.
I do think the Robin hood line extension (I think again partly along a test track) is the most likely of the three projects to go ahead.
Railway economics is an absolutely fascinating subject.0 -
The one that causes the most confusion is Robin Hood Airport at Doncaster. No end of people travel there thinking it is near Nottingham because of the Robin Hood name.Anazina said:
I didn't take it as a parochial comment, just simple fact.Cookie said:
I wasn't trying to be parochial about it! All I meant by being a bigger attractor was that it had more jobs. I make no other judgement on the rival claims of the two cities! (Though I did live in Nottingham for ten years.)Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:JosiasJessop said:Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
It reminds me of this classic story.
Episode 1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/3412149.stm
Episode 2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2006/12/07/rename_nottingham_ema_feature.shtml0 -
No doubt a bit buried in the statement. When they state something unusual it should be highlighted and flagged as unusual for the non-specialist.Pulpstar said:
Hmm I'm not a massive fan of the big four and not bitter at all that PWC rejected my application about 15 years ago but I think people misunderstand the role of auditors... this sort of commentGardenwalker said:
There are way too many cosy cartels in this country. It’s one of the key reasons that we suffer from low productivity, in my opinion.another_richard said:Revealing facts about auditors:
' Concentration in this market has now reached absurd levels – the big four are auditors to 97% of FTSE 350 companies. Carillion perfectly illustrated the closed shop in action. KMPG approved the accounts, Deloitte advised the board on risk management, and EY was consulted on turnaround plans. That left the field clear for PwC to name its price as adviser to the Official Receiver. '
https://www.theguardian.com/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2018/may/16/entire-system-failed-carillion-not-just-directors-at-the-top
The breaking up of the big audit firms is long overdue
'Given the relative size of the goodwill in the Group balance sheet, particularly in the UK Services CGU, relatively small changes in these assumptions could give rise to material changes in the assessment of the carrying value of goodwill.' is a bit of a danger warning flag to anyone who cares to read the annual statement.
KPMG had a good few such statements in Carrillion's audit report.0 -
It was indeed a typo!OldKingCole said:
I hoped it was, but wanted to be sure!Anorak said:*snippety snip*
I read that as a typo!OldKingCole said:
However, did you mean what you wrote when you wrote: 'It i(presumably the 'Arab state’) is now facing an Israeli leadership which does have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process.’
I really don’t get the impression that the Israeli leadership "does have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process.” I would have said ‘doesn’t. Not does,
Sadly, the Israeli leadership does not have the ambition or compassion or farsightedness or generosity necessary to kickstart a fresh peace process.
Until it does it is hard to see a way out of the current bloody impasse.0 -
Now I am just being trolledRichard_Tyndall said:
Whilst I agree that is the case now, it certainly wasn't in the past. Leicester was the civitas capital in Iron Age and Roman times. That all changed when Danelaw came along and Nottingham took its place as one of the 5 towns of Danelaw.Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:
I actually wrote a dissertation 10 yearsJosiasJessop said:
The Ivanhoe Line (Burton to Leicester) has been talked about for a couple of decades, and as far as I'm aware, after a couple of local station openings, the project has stalled (ISTR that mining subsidence in the ?Ashby? area is a significant issue, as is the cost of resignalling).Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
I've also heard of no *serious* proposals on the Nottingham to Melton line - and users of the Lady Bay Bridge in Nottingham may not be best pleased ...
This is annoying, as all of Leicester to Burton, and most of Nottingham to Melton, are intact lines (the former for freight, the latter as a test track). If these cannot be economically reopened, there is little chance of serious re openings of lines that are not mostly extant.
I do think the Robin hood line extension (I think again partly along a test track) is the most likely of the three projects to go ahead.
Railway economics is an absolutely fascinating subject.
Nottingham has been on the decline for a couple of decades, and Leicester ascendant. In particular Leicester has become the detination for shopping in the region, and of course our Football team is far better too.0 -
Richard(s) and Pulpstar
Nottingham is a superior city in an ordinary county.
Derby is an ordinary city in a superior county.0 -
Strawman argument. No one on here has said anything about destroying Israel. But Israel neds to be back in its 1967 borders as agreed by the UN. The fact they were persecuted in the past does not give them the right to persecute others now.Cyclefree said:
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater right to live there than those who were there beforehand and who continue to live there.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
But I think they prefer being disliked but alive to being victims (again) and dead or persecuted.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.
While it was a convenient fiction for early Israeli leaders to describe Israel as "A land without a people for a people without a land" it is also a fiction to say that there were no Jews living in the land of Israel before the 20th century and that only the Palestinians have a claim to live there.
While I would like there to be a homeland for the Palestinians I simply will not support any solution which entails the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (or worse) of Jews. It might be easier for peace to be achieved if some of those groups complaining about Israel's behaviour explicitly forswore these as ambitions.0 -
I can imagine. Whether or not Hood existed and whether or not, if he did, he was in fact from South Yorkshire, he is inextricably linked both domestically and internationally with Nottingham and that simply isn’t going to change. Doncaster might try to find its own hero.Richard_Tyndall said:
The one that causes the most confusion is Robin Hood Airport at Doncaster. No end of people travel there thinking it is near Nottingham because of the Robin Hood name.Anazina said:
I didn't take it as a parochial comment, just simple fact.Cookie said:
I wasn't trying to be parochial about it! All I meant by being a bigger attractor was that it had more jobs. I make no other judgement on the rival claims of the two cities! (Though I did live in Nottingham for ten years.)Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:JosiasJessop said:Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
It reminds me of this classic story.
Episode 1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/3412149.stm
Episode 2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2006/12/07/rename_nottingham_ema_feature.shtml
I guess they came close with Ed Miliband!0 -
It also has produced some marvelous graduates, including yours truly.Foxy said:
Now I am just being trolledRichard_Tyndall said:
Whilst I agree that is the case now, it certainly wasn't in the past. Leicester was the civitas capital in Iron Age and Roman times. That all changed when Danelaw came along and Nottingham took its place as one of the 5 towns of Danelaw.Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:
I actually wrote a dissertation 10 yearsJosiasJessop said:
The Ivanhoe Line (Burton to Leicester) has been talked about for a couple of decades, and as far as I'm aware, after a couple of local station openings, the project has stalled (ISTR that mining subsidence in the ?Ashby? area is a significant issue, as is the cost of resignalling).Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
I've also heard of no *serious* proposals on the Nottingham to Melton line - and users of the Lady Bay Bridge in Nottingham may not be best pleased ...
This is annoying, as all of Leicester to Burton, and most of Nottingham to Melton, are intact lines (the former for freight, the latter as a test track). If these cannot be economically reopened, there is little chance of serious re openings of lines that are not mostly extant.
I do think the Robin hood line extension (I think again partly along a test track) is the most likely of the three projects to go ahead.
Railway economics is an absolutely fascinating subject.
Nottingham has been on the decline for a couple of decades, and Leicester ascendant. In particular Leicester has become the detination for shopping in the region, and of course our Football team is far better too.
I don't feel I really took advantage of the city as much as I could have though.0 -
It does not matter what we say on here. It does matter what Hamas and the Palestinian authority say. Hamas does want the destruction of Israel. The expressed view of the PLA depends on which audience they are speaking to.Richard_Tyndall said:
Strawman argument. No one on here has said anything about destroying Israel. But Israel neds to be back in its 1967 borders as agreed by the UN. The fact they were persecuted in the past does not give them the right to persecute others now.Cyclefree said:
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater right to live there than those who were there beforehand and who continue to live there.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
While it was a convenient fiction for early Israeli leaders to describe Israel as "A land without a people for a people without a land" it is also a fiction to say that there were no Jews living in the land of Israel before the 20th century and that only the Palestinians have a claim to live there.
While I would like there to be a homeland for the Palestinians I simply will not support any solution which entails the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (or worse) of Jews. It might be easier for peace to be achieved if some of those groups complaining about Israel's behaviour explicitly forswore these as ambitions.
Until those on the ground agree that Israel can exist - whether within the 1967 borders or some other agreed borders - there can be no peace. Currently Israel's enemies - some of them - want the country to disappear.0 -
Funny coincidence. I grew up in Nottinghamshire living there for 40 years. I have now moved over the birder into Lincolnshire for the last 9 years and my university years were in South Wales rather than NorthTorby_Fennel said:
Indeed so. I've lived in the East Midlands for the vast majority of my life and love the area. I grew up in Nottinghamshire and have spent most of my adult life in Lincolnshire (and much of that in Lincoln itself). Only my university years (in North Wales) interrupted my time in the region.AndyJS said:
The East Midlands has plenty of interesting places to visit, like Dovedale, Lincoln, Rutland, Suthwell, Buxton, etc. 0 -
Its not particularly near Sheffield either.Richard_Tyndall said:
The one that causes the most confusion is Robin Hood Airport at Doncaster. No end of people travel there thinking it is near Nottingham because of the Robin Hood name.Anazina said:
I didn't take it as a parochial comment, just simple fact.Cookie said:
I wasn't trying to be parochial about it! All I meant by being a bigger attractor was that it had more jobs. I make no other judgement on the rival claims of the two cities! (Though I did live in Nottingham for ten years.)Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:JosiasJessop said:Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
It reminds me of this classic story.
Episode 1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/3412149.stm
Episode 2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2006/12/07/rename_nottingham_ema_feature.shtml
It was the Sherrif who was in Nottingham not Robin Hood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doncaster_Sheffield_Airport#Name
Though the airport should have been named Pilgrim Fathers as many of them came from villages surrounding the airport and it is a travel associated name.
0 -
But Nottingham does have two league football teams rather than just oneFoxy said:
Now I am just being trolledRichard_Tyndall said:
Whilst I agree that is the case now, it certainly wasn't in the past. Leicester was the civitas capital in Iron Age and Roman times. That all changed when Danelaw came along and Nottingham took its place as one of the 5 towns of Danelaw.Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:
I actually wrote a dissertation 10 yearsJosiasJessop said:
The Ivanhoe Line (Burton to Leicester) has been talked about for a couple of decades, and as far as I'm aware, after a couple of local station openings, the project has stalled (ISTR that mining subsidence in the ?Ashby? area is a significant issue, as is the cost of resignalling).Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
I've also heard of no *serious* proposals on the Nottingham to Melton line - and users of the Lady Bay Bridge in Nottingham may not be best pleased ...
This is annoying, as all of Leicester to Burton, and most of Nottingham to Melton, are intact lines (the former for freight, the latter as a test track). If these cannot be economically reopened, there is little chance of serious re openings of lines that are not mostly extant.
I do think the Robin hood line extension (I think again partly along a test track) is the most likely of the three projects to go ahead.
Railway economics is an absolutely fascinating subject.
Nottingham has been on the decline for a couple of decades, and Leicester ascendant. In particular Leicester has become the detination for shopping in the region, and of course our Football team is far better too. And of course the Leading Ice Hockey team in the UK. 0 -
Except at no point did I bring Nazis into it. I think your argument must have been with someone else.JonnyJimmy said:
Who said anything about it being okay to shoot people? The Israelis may be defending what happened; I'm certainly not. I'm asking why bring the Nazis into it. You've got to be a proper Ken to think that's okay.Richard_Tyndall said:
To repeat what I said on the last thread. Based on their actions at the moment they deserve to be pretty fucking insulted. And that is a very weird attitude. Its okay to shoot people but not to insult them?JonnyJimmy said:fpt..
Why does criticism of Israel ever need to contain reference to the Nazis?Richard_Tyndall said:
No matter how much their supporters try to make it so, Israel and Judaism are not synonymous. Indeed plenty of Orthodox Jews claim the existence of Israel is against Jewish teachings.DecrepitJohnL said:
The more-or-less official definition of antisemitism includes drawing parallels with the Nazis.justin124 said:I see that a Labour councillor in Oxford has had the whip withdrawn for tweeting picures of children being threatened by armed soldiers. One picture showed a Nazi soldier from World War 2 whilst another showed an Israeli doing something similar a mere few days ago. Personally , I feel his point is well made by those photos - and fail to see how producing them amounts to Anti-Semitism at all. At the end of the day, Netanyahu is little better than Himmler et al.
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
To claim that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic is merely a way to shut down debate.
Not being imaginative enough to think up different shits to compare Jewish people to than the shits that actually tried to exterminate them all is pretty fucking insulting.0 -
The Doncaster fictional hero is Ivanhoe - who it seems Leicestershire is trying to claim.Anazina said:
I can imagine. Whether or not Hood existed and whether or not, if he did, he was in fact from South Yorkshire, he is inextricably linked both domestically and internationally with Nottingham and that simply isn’t going to change. Doncaster might try to find its own hero.Richard_Tyndall said:
The one that causes the most confusion is Robin Hood Airport at Doncaster. No end of people travel there thinking it is near Nottingham because of the Robin Hood name.Anazina said:
I didn't take it as a parochial comment, just simple fact.Cookie said:
I wasn't trying to be parochial about it! All I meant by being a bigger attractor was that it had more jobs. I make no other judgement on the rival claims of the two cities! (Though I did live in Nottingham for ten years.)Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:JosiasJessop said:Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
It reminds me of this classic story.
Episode 1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/3412149.stm
Episode 2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2006/12/07/rename_nottingham_ema_feature.shtml
I guess they came close with Ed Miliband!0 -
Foxy said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Nottingham miles ahead in retail.Anazina said:
Now I am just being trolledCookie said:
Whilst I agree that is the case snipJosiasJessop said:
The Ivanhoe Line (Burton to Leicester) has been talked about for a couple of decades, and as far as I'm aware, after a couple of local station openings, the project has stalled (ISTR that mining subsidence in the ?Ashby? area is a significant issue, as is the cost of resignalling).Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
I've also heard of no *serious* proposals on the Nottingham to Melton line - and users of the Lady Bay Bridge in Nottingham may not be best pleased ...
This is annoying, as all of Leicester to Burton, and most of Nottingham to Melton, are intact lines (the former for freight, the latter as a
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.
Nottingham has been on the decline for a couple of decades, and Leicester ascendant. In particular Leicester has become the detination for shopping in the region, and of course our Football team is far better too.
http://hdh.co.uk/uploads/2017/06/HDH-Vitality-Index-June-2017.pdf
Nottingham is a two-club city so really Leicester City ought to do better. Historically though Forest are the biggest club in the region and have won two European cups.0 -
Tricky to have aggression by the Arab League etc allowed to result in just being able to rewind and try again though. What did Israel claim prior to hostilities? Certainly Jerusalem I'd imagine.Richard_Tyndall said:
Strawman argument. No one on here has said anything about destroying Israel. But Israel neds to be back in its 1967 borders as agreed by the UN. The fact they were persecuted in the past does not give them the right to persecute others now.Cyclefree said:
Why shouldn't they? It was after all the decision of the UN - which pretty much represents the rest of the world - and it provides a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews have lived in the land of Israel for much much longer than Arabs. I don't accept the assumption that the group which arrived last in a region has somehow a greater right to live there than those who were there beforehand and who continue to live there.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
While it was a convenient fiction for early Israeli leaders to describe Israel as "A land without a people for a people without a land" it is also a fiction to say that there were no Jews living in the land of Israel before the 20th century and that only the Palestinians have a claim to live there.
While I would like there to be a homeland for the Palestinians I simply will not support any solution which entails the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (or worse) of Jews. It might be easier for peace to be achieved if some of those groups complaining about Israel's behaviour explicitly forswore these as ambitions.
There must be a price for aggressive war if you lose. The price paid for losing their defensive war, had Israel lost, would undoubtedly have been absolutely awful.
(Apologies for any misremembered detail here, but I think the general theme stands)0 -
Foxy
Nottingham miles ahead in retail.
http://hdh.co.uk/uploads/2017/06/HDH-Vitality-Index-June-2017.pdf
Nottingham is a two-club city so really Leicester City ought to do better. Historically though Forest are the biggest club in the region and have won two European cups.0 -
Agreed.Gardenwalker said:
There are way too many cosy cartels in this country. It’s one of the key reasons that we suffer from low productivity, in my opinion.another_richard said:Revealing facts about auditors:
' Concentration in this market has now reached absurd levels – the big four are auditors to 97% of FTSE 350 companies. Carillion perfectly illustrated the closed shop in action. KMPG approved the accounts, Deloitte advised the board on risk management, and EY was consulted on turnaround plans. That left the field clear for PwC to name its price as adviser to the Official Receiver. '
https://www.theguardian.com/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2018/may/16/entire-system-failed-carillion-not-just-directors-at-the-top
The breaking up of the big audit firms is long overdue
Unfortunately governments seem to have a liking for cosy cartels.0 -
The people living in Israel today are not "on the whole Jews". Including the bantustans they are about half Jewish. Even if they were majority Jewish it still doesn't excuse discrimination. Countries are rightly judged by how they treat minorities. To be fair to Israel, it doesn't have a monopoly on discrimination in that part of the world.Ishmael_Z said:
If that were any kind of point at all, it would have been a point in 1948 or thereabouts. The people who live in Israel today are on the whole Jews, and Jews are therefore who it is now for. We have to start from where we currently are.FF43 said:
No it didn't work out for Jews in Nazi Germany. And you know what? It is utterly irrelevant to Israel. Countries are for those that live in them and not for ghosts, however outrageous the history. Sorry.HYUFD said:
Didn't quite work out that way though for Jews living in Nazi Germany or Nazi occupied Europe though did it.FF43 said:
Why should anyone else accept this? Countries should be for people that live in them.Cyclefree said:
I don't see Jews ever again accepting a situation where they are a minority in a country dependant on the kindness or tolerance of non-Jews, no matter what the constitution or laws say and no matter what guarantees they get from outsiders.
Jews have learnt the hard way that when you are in a minority you are vulnerable, no matter how integrated you are, no matter what your contributions, no matter how good a citizen you are, no matter even if you fight for your country of birth. They are determined to have one place in the world where that does not obtain. And looking at recent history and, indeed, at what has been happening in places such as France in recent years, it is perfectly understandable. Even if it does mean that in their Jewish home they behave to other minorities in a way which is bloody awful and damaging to their own long term interests.
But I think they prefer being disliked but alive to being victims (again) and dead or persecuted.
A two-state solution - as envisaged 70 years ago - is the only way to go.
Hence the reason why they feel they need at least 1 country where they are a majority0 -
Lebanon. You've invented Lebanon.Charles said:
Wasn’t that the proposal made by Richard the Lionheart?FF43 said:
Strangely, Israel's friends and foes have a shared interest in making the country to be exceptional. In my view it is a deeply mediocre country. Not uniquely awful, but awful enough for a large part of its inhabitants. If there is ever to be a "solution" in my view it is as a single state that stretches from the Mediterranean to the Jordan, that is neither Jewish nor Palestinian but which institutionalises the fact of there being about half of each,Cyclefree said:
For some it may be a lack of imagination.
For some others it's a deliberately offensive insult.
And for yet some others it's a way of delegitimising the very concept of Israel, of a home for Jews. If that Jewish home is no better than Nazis, why would we want it to exist any more than we would want Nazism to exist?
Distinguishing between the unimaginatively offensive and those who have an agenda is increasingly tiresome.
There are plenty of good reasons for criticising what Israel does without needing to make hyperbolic, insulting and usually wholly untrue statements which tend to reflect badly on those making them and detract from the force or otherwise of the criticism.
But those who do the whole "Israel is the new Nazi Germany" shtick are following the dictum of that infamous Nazi, Goebbels, - "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
I think though Mr Tyndall is wrong in what he says: Israel - the land of Israel (rather than any political state) - is pretty central to Judaism, Jewish ceremonies and key Jewish religious remembrance days. Asking Jews to pretend that this is not so is like asking Muslims to pretend that Mecca is not central to their religion.
And, from the previous thread, on what has been happening in Gaza in recent days -
Even if most of those killed were members of Hamas Israel's actions seem to me (based only on what I have been reading) to be disproportionate, possibly crimes and foolish since they do nothing to calm an already inflamed and difficult situation and perpetuate a vicious cycle of grievance, martyrdom, reaction, defensiveness, aggression and fear.
I do not hold with the seemingly fashionable view that Israel is wholly to blame and wholly evil and the Palestinians are purely innocent victims. The situation is much more complicated. But Israel does not seem to me to have an intelligent long-term strategy and, as the stronger party, is behaving in a way which, quite apart from any other considerations, risks weakening its long-term position.
(Yes, seriously! Albeit Christians/Muslims/Jews)
Also, if your solution to middle east peace is "Israel should be more like Lebanon" then you're off your nut.
0 -
You replied to a comment about exactly that! And then said it's good they get get insulted when I asked specifically about bringing comparisons to Nazis into it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Except at no point did I bring Nazis into it. I think your argument must have been with someone else.JonnyJimmy said:
Who said anything about it being okay to shoot people? The Israelis may be defending what happened; I'm certainly not. I'm asking why bring the Nazis into it. You've got to be a proper Ken to think that's okay.Richard_Tyndall said:
To repeat what I said on the last thread. Based on their actions at the moment they deserve to be pretty fucking insulted. And that is a very weird attitude. Its okay to shoot people but not to insult them?JonnyJimmy said:fpt..
Why does criticism of Israel ever need to contain reference to the Nazis?Richard_Tyndall said:
No matter how much their supporters try to make it so, Israel and Judaism are not synonymous. Indeed plenty of Orthodox Jews claim the existence of Israel is against Jewish teachings.DecrepitJohnL said:
The more-or-less official definition of antisemitism includes drawing parallels with the Nazis.justin124 said:I see that a Labour councillor in Oxford has had the whip withdrawn for tweeting picures of children being threatened by armed soldiers. One picture showed a Nazi soldier from World War 2 whilst another showed an Israeli doing something similar a mere few days ago. Personally , I feel his point is well made by those photos - and fail to see how producing them amounts to Anti-Semitism at all. At the end of the day, Netanyahu is little better than Himmler et al.
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
To claim that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic is merely a way to shut down debate.
Not being imaginative enough to think up different shits to compare Jewish people to than the shits that actually tried to exterminate them all is pretty fucking insulting.
Why did you reply to the comment that said comparing Israel to Nazis is antisemitic by disagreeing with it? How Ken are you?0 -
Technically Nottingham is a one club city as Forest play in Rushcliffe.Anazina said:Foxy
Nottingham miles ahead in retail.
http://hdh.co.uk/uploads/2017/06/HDH-Vitality-Index-June-2017.pdf
Nottingham is a two-club city so really Leicester City ought to do better. Historically though Forest are the biggest club in the region and have won two European cups.
Which is itself an oddity with the 'city' club playing in the county and the 'county' club playing in the city.0 -
Ha! Very true!another_richard said:
Technically Nottingham is a one club city as Forest play in Rushcliffe.Anazina said:Foxy
Nottingham miles ahead in retail.
http://hdh.co.uk/uploads/2017/06/HDH-Vitality-Index-June-2017.pdf
Nottingham is a two-club city so really Leicester City ought to do better. Historically though Forest are the biggest club in the region and have won two European cups.
Which is itself an oddity with the 'city' club playing in the county and the 'county' club playing in the city.
0 -
I never knew that. Same applies to Manchester as United play in Trafford.another_richard said:
Technically Nottingham is a one club city as Forest play in Rushcliffe.Anazina said:Foxy
Nottingham miles ahead in retail.
http://hdh.co.uk/uploads/2017/06/HDH-Vitality-Index-June-2017.pdf
Nottingham is a two-club city so really Leicester City ought to do better. Historically though Forest are the biggest club in the region and have won two European cups.
Which is itself an oddity with the 'city' club playing in the county and the 'county' club playing in the city.0 -
I thought they were going for Richard IIIanother_richard said:
The Doncaster fictional hero is Ivanhoe - who it seems Leicestershire is trying to claim.Anazina said:
I can imagine. Whether or not Hood existed and whether or not, if he did, he was in fact from South Yorkshire, he is inextricably linked both domestically and internationally with Nottingham and that simply isn’t going to change. Doncaster might try to find its own hero.Richard_Tyndall said:
The one that causes the most confusion is Robin Hood Airport at Doncaster. No end of people travel there thinking it is near Nottingham because of the Robin Hood name.Anazina said:
I didn't take it as a parochial comment, just simple fact.Cookie said:
I wasn't trying to be parochial about it! All I meant by being a bigger attractor was that it had more jobs. I make no other judgement on the rival claims of the two cities! (Though I did live in Nottingham for ten years.)Anazina said:
Leicester will always be an also-ran to Nottingham in the region. Nottingham is the regional capital and will forever be so.Cookie said:JosiasJessop said:Richard_Tyndall said:
There is a lot of movement towards reopening several lies in the East Midlands. Both the Nottingham to Melton and the Leicester to Burton Lines are in quite advanced planning stages. This is on the back of the reopening of the Nottingham to Worksop 'Robin Hood' line which was reopened in the 90s. That is now likely to be extended to Ollerton. All of these lines were closed in the 60s.JosiasJessop said:
The line closed in 1970, and I don't think (though could be wrong) that it wasn't mentioned in either report ...
...
The real shame was not keeping the routes intact so they could be reopened if necessary later - the land was often sold off piecemeal with undue haste. Witness also (allegedly) the destruction of the GC route through Nottingham. A massively wasted opportunity.
It reminds me of this classic story.
Episode 1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/3412149.stm
Episode 2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2006/12/07/rename_nottingham_ema_feature.shtml
I guess they came close with Ed Miliband!
0 -
Change at Stratford for West Hamtlg86 said:
I never knew that. Same applies to Manchester as United play in Trafford.another_richard said:
Technically Nottingham is a one club city as Forest play in Rushcliffe.Anazina said:Foxy
Nottingham miles ahead in retail.
http://hdh.co.uk/uploads/2017/06/HDH-Vitality-Index-June-2017.pdf
Nottingham is a two-club city so really Leicester City ought to do better. Historically though Forest are the biggest club in the region and have won two European cups.
Which is itself an oddity with the 'city' club playing in the county and the 'county' club playing in the city. 0 -
Think they are building two extra platforms at Derby station, when I passed through last week.Anazina said:Richard(s) and Pulpstar
Nottingham is a superior city in an ordinary county.
Derby is an ordinary city in a superior county.0 -
Now you are just getting desperate. I replied to an ongoing conversation thread about anti-Semitism with the following comment:JonnyJimmy said:
You replied to a comment about exactly that! And then said it's good they get get insulted when I asked specifically about bringing comparisons to Nazis into it.
Why did you reply to the comment that said comparing Israel to Nazis is antisemitic by disagreeing with it? How Ken are you?
"No matter how much their supporters try to make it so, Israel and Judaism are not synonymous. Indeed plenty of Orthodox Jews claim the existence of Israel is against Jewish teachings.
To claim that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic is merely a way to shut down debate."
At no point did I mention Nazis nor did my comment make an reference or inference about them. It was a general comment and if the only way you can counter it is by straw man arguments then clearly you lack the ability to argue your case cogently or reasonably.0
