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What would be fascinating is to know how those Labour "Brexit most important" break down as to being Leavers and Remainers.CarlottaVance said:
SCOTTISH SUBSAMPLE ALERT KLAXONJamesP said:New YouGov Poll: 24th-25th April
CON 43 (=)
LAB 38 (=)
LD 8 (=)
UKIP 3 (=)
GRN 3 (=)
SNP 4 (=)
https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/991066535019057152
Con: 31
Lab: 22
SNP: 35
On a more serious note....
Best PM by 2017 Vote - among own voters (current VI)
May: 84 (93)
Corbyn: 58 (73)
And among Tory voters the most important issues are:
#1 Brexit (70)
#2 Immigration (43)
#3 = Health (34), Economy (33) Defence (33)
While Labour voters have very different concerns - apart from Brexit:
#1 Brexit (54)
#2 Health (51)
#3 Housing (30)0 -
No, they've released the tables.surby said:
Are we sure they didn't release the wrong poll ?JamesP said:New YouGov Poll: 24th-25th April
CON 43 (=)
LAB 38 (=)
LD 8 (=)
UKIP 3 (=)
GRN 3 (=)
SNP 4 (=)
https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/9910665350190571520 -
I've never understood what's supposed to be wrong about cultural appropriation. Surely, it's a good thing to adopt aspects of foreign cultures.FrancisUrquhart said:Poor kid...wears a pretty dress to a prom, next she is front and centre in the crosshairs of the twitter mob and on the front page of the bbc website,
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-439479590 -
Dr. Evil.another_richard said:Is his head at an angle ?
He looks a bit like the Mekon.0 -
Next PM:
1. Rees-Mogg: 6.4
2. Corbyn: 6.6
3. Johnson: 13
4. Gove 17.5
5. Hunt 22
6. Javid 32
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.1255750940 -
The PM of Canada was wearing Indian dress in India a few weeks ago.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I remember both Cherie and SamCam wearing the Indian sari to Divali parties. But can't remember if it was ever controversial?FrancisUrquhart said:Poor kid...wears a pretty dress to a prom, next she is front and centre in the crosshairs of the twitter mob and on the front page of the bbc website,
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-439479590 -
"Windrush is just the start: records are being shredded and history deleted
It’s not only immigrants and civil servants seething at the loss of landing cards: historians are too
Guy Walters"
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/04/windrush-is-just-the-start-records-are-being-shredded-and-history-deleted/0 -
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Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c0 -
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.
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Well in that case why is he now straight back on the leaver bandwagon? But I am sure he will change again as soon as the wind turns. That is the problem with politicians like Javid (and May of course).williamglenn said:
Perhaps it was the reverse? Maybe he was never a leaver but thought pretending to be would be good for his career. After all, that's the more common pretence for a Tory politician.archer101au said:His big chance came at the EU Ref when, despite clearly being a leaver, he supported Remain because he thought they would win and it would be better for his career.
I am now thinking May will be gone by the end of May anyway. The Brexit betrayal carcrash is about to unfold - are the leavers really going to let her get away with BRINO?0 -
"If our tech breaks we’ll be back in the dark ages
Hugo Rifkind
The TSB fiasco is just a taste of the problems being created by our increasing reliance on systems we don’t understand"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/if-our-tech-breaks-we-ll-be-back-in-the-dark-ages-j55l9znb90 -
I mainly posted the list to show how Javid has risen to number 6. He'll probably overtaken Hunt soon.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c0 -
Whilst I understand your motivation (and JRM is so utterly unsuitable to be PM I can scarcely believe sensible Conservatives support him), I fail to believe your membership of Labour does anything other than aid Corbyn and the far left. That is despite your excellent threader and comments.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
I don't want my son growing up in an environment of bigotry and hate that JRM or Corbyn promises the country. The way to do that is to counter their views - and of those like them - robustly. It is hard to do that from within the Labour tent, for the reasons Woodcock and others are finding.0 -
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.
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So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.0 -
No, it’s not. Inside the Labour party I get a vote to stop the far left and to create a party capable of winning elections. Iutside I just have to accept that the Tories will be in power for years to come.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.
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There are plenty of us who are appalled by the thought of either alternative.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.0 -
And do you find them scarier than Jezza and McIRA?SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c0 -
This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.0 -
The Morgan-Abbott car crash interview carried over into twitter:
https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-news/953185/Piers-Morgan-Twitter-Diane-Abbott-interview-Good-Morning-Britain-news-latest-pictures
Abbott's reply of 'viewers can make their own minds up' was met with Morgan helpfully posting the video of the interview...0 -
Scarier than Jezza certainly.tlg86 said:
And do you find them scarier than Jezza and McIRA?SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c0 -
Much speculation about a bald man now on manoeuvres for the top job ....
Will Bedford becomes the centre of political life in the UK in the coming years ?!? .... I rather think it may.
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Also interesting because May's words on entering office appeared to suggest that she *got* the magnitude of the problems we face and knew things had to change. The lack of more radical action then being down to some combination of lack of imagination to identify workable solutions and lack of political capital to push them through against the inertia and vested interests of the Tory party. Whereas this suggests that no.10 is itself blocking more radical action; not at all what we were promised.Nigelb said:This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.0 -
So, Mr tlg86, what's your favourite STD? Is it Syphilis? Or perhaps Chlamydia? Personally, I'm a big fan of gonorrhea.tlg86 said:
And do you find them scarier than Jezza and McIRA?SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c0 -
Why the 'either'?SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.
Probably, he is blinkered rather than thick, having led an existence and with views that give him little understanding of the modern world.0 -
Windrush excepted, Javid will be tougher on "illegal" immigration than even May seemed to be.IanB2 said:
Also interesting because May's words on entering office appeared to suggest that she *got* the magnitude of the problems we face and knew things had to change. The lack of more radical action then being down to some combination of lack of imagination to identify workable solutions and lack of political capital to push them through against the inertia and vested interests of the Tory party. Whereas this suggests that no.10 is itself blocking more radical action; not at all what we were promised.Nigelb said:This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.0 -
JRM has many negatives, but he certainly is not as serious a risk - or as nasty - as Corbyn and his 'followers'.OldKingCole said:
Scarier than Jezza certainly.tlg86 said:
And do you find them scarier than Jezza and McIRA?SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c0 -
Absurd - none of the top five (certainly the top four) is ever going to be PMAndyJS said:Next PM:
1. Rees-Mogg: 6.4
2. Corbyn: 6.6
3. Johnson: 13
4. Gove 17.5
5. Hunt 22
6. Javid 32
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.1255750940 -
Why not have a voting system where voters get to make such choices, rather than their being exclusive to people who pay to get inside the tent?SouthamObserver said:
No, it’s not. Inside the Labour party I get a vote to stop the far left and to create a party capable of winning elections. Iutside I just have to accept that the Tories will be in power for years to come.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.0 -
I am one of them.Nigelb said:
There are plenty of us who are appalled by the thought of either alternative.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.0 -
You get one vote, but your membership will be used to show how the party is broad and inclusive, even whilst being interior and bigoted. "Look! We have a million members! Corbyn is great!"SouthamObserver said:
No, it’s not. Inside the Labour party I get a vote to stop the far left and to create a party capable of winning elections. Iutside I just have to accept that the Tories will be in power for years to come.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.
You are not a fool, but you will be used as a useful fool by the Corbynite followers.
I'd understand if there was any likelihood of a non-Corbynite leader within Labour. But there isn't, and the faithful are ruining the chances of anyone doing so.0 -
It’s not fair to call it a “fraud” on bonuses. Some too-clever tax planner thought he’d come up with a whizzo scheme. Some employees participated. The HMRC ruled against them and made them pay back the tax owed.Nemtynakht said:
I've always talked him up as a potential Tory leader. He has a great backstory and had been positioned by Osborne as supporter. He was an investment banker and was linked to a fraud on bonuses. Anyone know anything more about itDavidL said:
In fairness I think a fair bit of that had to do with the precipitous fall of his patron (Osborne) and having to win back favour with the new regime. By political standards he was pretty loyal.FrancisUrquhart said:
A couple of years ago he was getting a similar build up, potential CoE etc, then he had some really dodgy media outings and quickly got shuffled off to a more minor role.tyson said:Sajid Javid....as I said earlier,. he is one of the very few Tories that could turn my head....I don't understand why he has never been mentioned as a runner and rider in the leadership debate.....
But he didn't achieve a lot when at Business in terms of "cutting red tape". Pretty much uncle Vince levels of activity. And he hasn't been exactly prominent in building new housing either.
OTOH facing up to Abbott would make most people look good.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3486895/Come-clean-bank-bonus-scheme-Javid-told-Labour-Business-Secretary-accused-showing-contempt-taxpayers-deal-dodge-tax.html
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What I object to is the forced choice element: either accept the suzerainty of the EU or of the US.Nigelb said:
There are plenty of us who are appalled by the thought of either alternative.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.
We chose to rely on ourselves. And, you know what, sometimes that will be difficult. But swapping the EU for the US (and a slightly capricious US right now, at that) is merely choosing Atlanticism over Europeanism. (Now, there's nothing wrong with that - and I'm an Atlanticist at heart - but it is fundamentally dishonest to say that it's about "regaining control", if it's merely a question of changing masters.)0 -
You can get better than evens that the Tories will control Swindon on Betfair. Anyone with local knowledge know if that is a good bet?0
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Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Windrush excepted, Javid will be tougher on "illegal" immigration than even May seemed to be.IanB2 said:
Also interesting because May's words on entering office appeared to suggest that she *got* the magnitude of the problems we face and knew things had to change. The lack of more radical action then being down to some combination of lack of imagination to identify workable solutions and lack of political capital to push them through against the inertia and vested interests of the Tory party. Whereas this suggests that no.10 is itself blocking more radical action; not at all what we were promised.Nigelb said:This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.0 -
It was always going to be thus. The Tories were most unlikely ever to try and carve out a new more non-aligned role on the world stage, akin to Norway or Switzerland. Ironically Corbyn is one of the few politicians who would favour taking us down such a route; the rest have watched way too many war films.rcs1000 said:
What I object to is the forced choice element: either accept the suzerainty of the EU or of the US.Nigelb said:
There are plenty of us who are appalled by the thought of either alternative.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.
We chose to rely on ourselves. And, you know what, sometimes that will be difficult. But swapping the EU for the US (and a slightly capricious US right now, at that) is merely choosing Atlanticism over Europeanism. (Now, there's nothing wrong with that - and I'm an Atlanticist at heart - but it is fundamentally dishonest to say that it's about "regaining control", if it's merely a question of changing masters.)0 -
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Windrush excepted, Javid will be tougher on "illegal" immigration than even May seemed to be.IanB2 said:
Also interesting because May's words on entering office appeared to suggest that she *got* the magnitude of the problems we face and knew things had to change. The lack of more radical action then being down to some combination of lack of imagination to identify workable solutions and lack of political capital to push them through against the inertia and vested interests of the Tory party. Whereas this suggests that no.10 is itself blocking more radical action; not at all what we were promised.Nigelb said:This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.0 -
Have you been on the sauce this evening?rcs1000 said:
So, Mr tlg86, what's your favourite STD? Is it Syphilis? Or perhaps Chlamydia? Personally, I'm a big fan of gonorrhea.tlg86 said:
And do you find them scarier than Jezza and McIRA?SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c0 -
Which argument would be valid if it wasn't for the fact that non-members can vote on payment of a registration fee.SouthamObserver said:
No, it’s not. Inside the Labour party I get a vote to stop the far left and to create a party capable of winning elections. Iutside I just have to accept that the Tories will be in power for years to come.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.0 -
Which was a damn fool idea from day 1. What other serious (I know, I know) organisation lets a member vote on important matters the day after joining? Or for a nominal fee?ydoethur said:
Which argument would be valid if it wasn't for the fact that non-members can vote on payment of a registration fee.SouthamObserver said:
No, it’s not. Inside the Labour party I get a vote to stop the far left and to create a party capable of winning elections. Iutside I just have to accept that the Tories will be in power for years to come.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.0 -
SO is also interested in all the local and other internal positions - not just votes for leader.ydoethur said:
Which argument would be valid if it wasn't for the fact that non-members can vote on payment of a registration fee.SouthamObserver said:
No, it’s not. Inside the Labour party I get a vote to stop the far left and to create a party capable of winning elections. Iutside I just have to accept that the Tories will be in power for years to come.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.
Fact is, the Labour Party remains the biggest obstacle to getting a decent government in this country. Waiting for the second coming of Tony Blair is fool's gold (and even he was only decent for the first term).0 -
I would be willing to consider ID cards with three very important caveats:OldKingCole said:While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.
1) They should only be used to access government services (e.g. Health, benefits, to vote) and police should not be able to demand they be produced at all times;
2) They must be issued for no fee;
3) I must be permitted full access to the database behind it, including seeing who else has accessed that data and why, with permission to sue named individuals who gain unauthorised or unnecessary access.
As (3) will certainly never happen and (1) and (2) are so improbable as to be dismissed, I remain opposed to them.0 -
Even granted ID cards are a good thing, how do you build a national ID database without walking slap into the same problem of needing the Windrush generation to establish who they are and how they got here? You could doubtless handle it a lot more sensitively and give people the benefit of the doubt but the underlying issue is the same.OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Windrush excepted, Javid will be tougher on "illegal" immigration than even May seemed to be.IanB2 said:
Also interesting because May's words on entering office appeared to suggest that she *got* the magnitude of the problems we face and knew things had to change. The lack of more radical action then being down to some combination of lack of imagination to identify workable solutions and lack of political capital to push them through against the inertia and vested interests of the Tory party. Whereas this suggests that no.10 is itself blocking more radical action; not at all what we were promised.Nigelb said:This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.0 -
Me too. Plenty of other countries have them without being police states.OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Windrush excepted, Javid will be tougher on "illegal" immigration than even May seemed to be.IanB2 said:
Also interesting because May's words on entering office appeared to suggest that she *got* the magnitude of the problems we face and knew things had to change. The lack of more radical action then being down to some combination of lack of imagination to identify workable solutions and lack of political capital to push them through against the inertia and vested interests of the Tory party. Whereas this suggests that no.10 is itself blocking more radical action; not at all what we were promised.Nigelb said:This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.0 -
Something that can be traced back to a certain Eric Joyce being an alcoholic idiot back in 2012.ydoethur said:
Which argument would be valid if it wasn't for the fact that non-members can vote on payment of a registration fee.SouthamObserver said:
No, it’s not. Inside the Labour party I get a vote to stop the far left and to create a party capable of winning elections. Iutside I just have to accept that the Tories will be in power for years to come.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Labour_Party_Falkirk_candidate_selection0 -
Let's see.surby said:
Windrush excepted, Javid will be tougher on "illegal" immigration than even May seemed to be.
He's actually in quite a powerful position I think - virtually unsackable for the forseeable future. He might want to unwind quite a bit of the so-called hostile environment.
0 -
You either declare an amnesty or work through all those cases, but that is going to need doing with or without ID cards.DecrepitJohnL said:
Even granted ID cards are a good thing, how do you build a national ID database without walking slap into the same problem of needing the Windrush generation to establish who they are and how they got here? You could doubtless handle it a lot more sensitively and give people the benefit of the doubt but the underlying issue is the same.OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Windrush excepted, Javid will be tougher on "illegal" immigration than even May seemed to be.IanB2 said:
Also interesting because May's words on entering office appeared to suggest that she *got* the magnitude of the problems we face and knew things had to change. The lack of more radical action then being down to some combination of lack of imagination to identify workable solutions and lack of political capital to push them through against the inertia and vested interests of the Tory party. Whereas this suggests that no.10 is itself blocking more radical action; not at all what we were promised.Nigelb said:This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.0 -
I don't want compulsory ID cards. But I would be open to the idea of having an optional one that people who want or need to regularise and document their position can easily apply for.OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.
Such a document could have wider effect than a passport because it would also be available to those who are not (yet) entitled to UK citizenship but are nevertheless entitled to be here, rent a house, open a bank account, have a driving licence, be employed etc. I would have thought such a document is going to be essential for EU citizens after any transitional period of Brexit.
We must be more creative with this. British traditional hostility to form filling and dealing with bureaucrats combined with our current laws on immigration have proved a truly toxic mix.0 -
An ID card that you need to access almost-essential things is in effect a compulsory one. One that you needed just for government payments like benefits is in effect an ID card for poor people only.DavidL said:
I don't want compulsory ID cards. But I would be open to the idea of having an optional one that people who want or need to regularise and document their position can easily apply for.OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.
Such a document could have wider effect than a passport because it would also be available to those who are not (yet) entitled to UK citizenship but are nevertheless entitled to be here, rent a house, open a bank account, have a driving licence, be employed etc. I would have thought such a document is going to be essential for EU citizens after any transitional period of Brexit.
We must be more creative with this. British traditional hostility to form filling and dealing with bureaucrats combined with our current laws on immigration have proved a truly toxic mix.
As someone said downthread, the current crisis doesn't so much make the case for an ID card as to indicate that if we introduce one there will be people whose entitlement to one will be very difficult to verify.0 -
Hear, hear.rcs1000 said:
What I object to is the forced choice element: either accept the suzerainty of the EU or of the US.Nigelb said:
There are plenty of us who are appalled by the thought of either alternative.JosiasJessop said:
So you want Corbyn and his mates deciding the future for your children and their children? Because that is exactly what you are aiding by being in the Labour party.SouthamObserver said:
I can’t make Rees Mogg out. He’s either profoundly thick or deeply dishonest. I tend towards the latter, but can’t rule out the former. What I know for sure is that I do not want him, Johnson and their mates deciding the future for my children and their children. That’s why there’s no alternative but to get back into the cesspool to use the votes my Labour membership gives me to do all I can to reduce the hold the far left currently has on the party.rcs1000 said:
That's a truly scary article.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
Midsized powers - as we will be - benefit from a rules based international environment. We want a strong World Trade Organisation to police trade. We do not benefit from being treated as the plaything of the US: where we can only avoid steel tariffs if we do what we're told.
We chose to rely on ourselves. And, you know what, sometimes that will be difficult. But swapping the EU for the US (and a slightly capricious US right now, at that) is merely choosing Atlanticism over Europeanism. (Now, there's nothing wrong with that - and I'm an Atlanticist at heart - but it is fundamentally dishonest to say that it's about "regaining control", if it's merely a question of changing masters.)0 -
Exactly , it is just bollox, as if the Tories gave a toss for any working class person from Rochdale.Foxy said:
Though it does rather contrast with the outcomes for the vast majority of working class kids from Rochdale.JosiasJessop said:First.
And I agree that it seems a highly effective poster.0 -
On Sajid Javid the best I can say is that I remain to be convinced.
Perhaps I don’t find the poster quite as impressive as others might because it’s so obvious a rehash of the original, which I remember well.-1 -
Guaranteed to be another empty suit , going up the greasy polearcher101au said:
You are making the mistake of equating media image with talent. So far, Javid has not shown that he has any particular political philosophy other than ambition. His big chance came at the EU Ref when, despite clearly being a leaver, he supported Remain because he thought they would win and it would be better for his career.tyson said:Sajid Javid....as I said earlier,. he is one of the very few Tories that could turn my head....I don't understand why he has never been mentioned as a runner and rider in the leadership debate.....
People don't want media performers any more - they are looking for politicians with genuine convictions. Which is why JRM is clear favourite amongst Con members.
Javid may be able to get into the frame IF he can show he really believes in anything, but I am not holding my breath....0 -
Could passports not be reduced to a convenient wallet sized card ?0
-
Those of us who are UK citizens and have a passport or UK birth certificate would not need it.IanB2 said:
An ID card that you need to access almost-essential things is in effect a compulsory one. One that you needed just for government payments like benefits is in effect an ID card for poor people only.DavidL said:
I don't want compulsory ID cards. But I would be open to the idea of having an optional one that people who want or need to regularise and document their position can easily apply for.OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.
Such a document could have wider effect than a passport because it would also be available to those who are not (yet) entitled to UK citizenship but are nevertheless entitled to be here, rent a house, open a bank account, have a driving licence, be employed etc. I would have thought such a document is going to be essential for EU citizens after any transitional period of Brexit.
We must be more creative with this. British traditional hostility to form filling and dealing with bureaucrats combined with our current laws on immigration have proved a truly toxic mix.
As someone said downthread, the current crisis doesn't so much make the case for an ID card as to indicate that if we introduce one there will be people whose entitlement to one will be very difficult to verify.
But I agree that creating such a document would generate phenomenal quantities of work and there would be hundreds of thousands of "difficult" cases where the entitlement to remain will be unclear. That is why I favour an amnesty. If we don't take those who have been here for, say, 10 years plus out of the system we risk replicating our current immigration mess which generates bad decisions and administrative chaos.0 -
+1 Living in Spain it's a non-issue and they're very useful for the holder.Foxy said:
Me too. Plenty of other countries have them without being police states.OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Windrush excepted, Javid will be tougher on "illegal" immigration than even May seemed to be.IanB2 said:
Also interesting because May's words on entering office appeared to suggest that she *got* the magnitude of the problems we face and knew things had to change. The lack of more radical action then being down to some combination of lack of imagination to identify workable solutions and lack of political capital to push them through against the inertia and vested interests of the Tory party. Whereas this suggests that no.10 is itself blocking more radical action; not at all what we were promised.Nigelb said:This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.0 -
Just your average Tory then , will make it in cabinet , talentless and likes dodgesNemtynakht said:
I've always talked him up as a potential Tory leader. He has a great backstory and had been positioned by Osborne as supporter. He was an investment banker and was linked to a fraud on bonuses. Anyone know anything more about itDavidL said:
In fairness I think a fair bit of that had to do with the precipitous fall of his patron (Osborne) and having to win back favour with the new regime. By political standards he was pretty loyal.FrancisUrquhart said:
A couple of years ago he was getting a similar build up, potential CoE etc, then he had some really dodgy media outings and quickly got shuffled off to a more minor role.tyson said:Sajid Javid....as I said earlier,. he is one of the very few Tories that could turn my head....I don't understand why he has never been mentioned as a runner and rider in the leadership debate.....
But he didn't achieve a lot when at Business in terms of "cutting red tape". Pretty much uncle Vince levels of activity. And he hasn't been exactly prominent in building new housing either.
OTOH facing up to Abbott would make most people look good.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3486895/Come-clean-bank-bonus-scheme-Javid-told-Labour-Business-Secretary-accused-showing-contempt-taxpayers-deal-dodge-tax.html0 -
I have a passport , NI number, NHS number, driving licence, tax reference and am on the electoral roll.
What more is needed for an ID card ?0 -
Malc, its 7.20am, the rain has gone, the sun is shining brightly, the birds are singing, yet you have to be so bitter and twisted. Rather sad really.malcolmg said:
Just your average Tory then , will make it in cabinet , talentless and likes dodgesNemtynakht said:
I've always talked him up as a potential Tory leader. He has a great backstory and had been positioned by Osborne as supporter. He was an investment banker and was linked to a fraud on bonuses. Anyone know anything more about itDavidL said:
In fairness I think a fair bit of that had to do with the precipitous fall of his patron (Osborne) and having to win back favour with the new regime. By political standards he was pretty loyal.FrancisUrquhart said:
A couple of years ago he was getting a similar build up, potential CoE etc, then he had some really dodgy media outings and quickly got shuffled off to a more minor role.tyson said:Sajid Javid....as I said earlier,. he is one of the very few Tories that could turn my head....I don't understand why he has never been mentioned as a runner and rider in the leadership debate.....
But he didn't achieve a lot when at Business in terms of "cutting red tape". Pretty much uncle Vince levels of activity. And he hasn't been exactly prominent in building new housing either.
OTOH facing up to Abbott would make most people look good.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3486895/Come-clean-bank-bonus-scheme-Javid-told-Labour-Business-Secretary-accused-showing-contempt-taxpayers-deal-dodge-tax.html0 -
While I don’t live in Thailand I visit quite often and am sometimes asked for ID when visiting official buildings. Usually I’ve found my driving licence adequate, although I had a problem earlier this year when it was passport or nothing. Fortunately driving licence was accepted eventually, with a lecture on having my passport with me at all times. To which I just said OK, promised I would, and went where I wanted to go and and had a very interesting few hours.felix said:
+1 Living in Spain it's a non-issue and they're very useful for the holder.Foxy said:
Me too. Plenty of other countries have them without being police states.OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Windrush excepted, Javid will be tougher on "illegal" immigration than even May seemed to be.IanB2 said:
.Nigelb said:This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.0 -
He cannot be any worse than the lying , cheating , incompetent toerags in power at present.JosiasJessop said:
Whilst I understand your motivation (and JRM is so utterly unsuitable to be PM I can scarcely believe sensible Conservatives support him), I fail to believe your membership of Labour does anything other than aid Corbyn and the far left. That is despite your excellent threader and comments.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
I don't want my son growing up in an environment of bigotry and hate that JRM or Corbyn promises the country. The way to do that is to counter their views - and of those like them - robustly. It is hard to do that from within the Labour tent, for the reasons Woodcock and others are finding.0 -
Good news that the Board of Trade kept their triplicate copy of the Windrush landing slips!AndyJS said:"Windrush is just the start: records are being shredded and history deleted
It’s not only immigrants and civil servants seething at the loss of landing cards: historians are too
Guy Walters"
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/04/windrush-is-just-the-start-records-are-being-shredded-and-history-deleted/0 -
I see you are your usual ray of sunshine this morning, Eliza!malcolmg said:
He cannot be any worse than the lying , cheating , incompetent toerags in power at present.JosiasJessop said:
Whilst I understand your motivation (and JRM is so utterly unsuitable to be PM I can scarcely believe sensible Conservatives support him), I fail to believe your membership of Labour does anything other than aid Corbyn and the far left. That is despite your excellent threader and comments.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
I don't want my son growing up in an environment of bigotry and hate that JRM or Corbyn promises the country. The way to do that is to counter their views - and of those like them - robustly. It is hard to do that from within the Labour tent, for the reasons Woodcock and others are finding.
I;m planning to be up your way for a few walks in a month or so, if I get my exeat form. There are some beautiful areas up there that I've not really visited before.0 -
LOL, there speaks the elite, it is never crooked when they "inadvertantly" do not pay tax on squillions , but woe betide anyone that gets an extra pound in benefits.Charles said:
It’s not fair to call it a “fraud” on bonuses. Some too-clever tax planner thought he’d come up with a whizzo scheme. Some employees participated. The HMRC ruled against them and made them pay back the tax owed.Nemtynakht said:
I've always talked him up as a potential Tory leader. He has a great backstory and had been positioned by Osborne as supporter. He was an investment banker and was linked to a fraud on bonuses. Anyone know anything more about itDavidL said:
In fairness I think a fair bit of that had to do with the precipitous fall of his patron (Osborne) and having to win back favour with the new regime. By political standards he was pretty loyal.FrancisUrquhart said:
A couple of years ago he was getting a similar build up, potential CoE etc, then he had some really dodgy media outings and quickly got shuffled off to a more minor role.tyson said:Sajid Javid....as I said earlier,. he is one of the very few Tories that could turn my head....I don't understand why he has never been mentioned as a runner and rider in the leadership debate.....
But he didn't achieve a lot when at Business in terms of "cutting red tape". Pretty much uncle Vince levels of activity. And he hasn't been exactly prominent in building new housing either.
OTOH facing up to Abbott would make most people look good.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3486895/Come-clean-bank-bonus-scheme-Javid-told-Labour-Business-Secretary-accused-showing-contempt-taxpayers-deal-dodge-tax.html0 -
Good morning, everyone.0
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NEW FRED0
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Why not just make it a driving licence, you can get one regardless of whether you drive a car.IanB2 said:
An ID card that you need to access almost-essential things is in effect a compulsory one. One that you needed just for government payments like benefits is in effect an ID card for poor people only.DavidL said:
I don't want compulsory ID cards. But I would be open to the idea of having an optional one that people who want or need to regularise and document their position can easily apply for.OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.
Such a document could have wider effect than a passport because it would also be available to those who are not (yet) entitled to UK citizenship but are nevertheless entitled to be here, rent a house, open a bank account, have a driving licence, be employed etc. I would have thought such a document is going to be essential for EU citizens after any transitional period of Brexit.
We must be more creative with this. British traditional hostility to form filling and dealing with bureaucrats combined with our current laws on immigration have proved a truly toxic mix.
As someone said downthread, the current crisis doesn't so much make the case for an ID card as to indicate that if we introduce one there will be people whose entitlement to one will be very difficult to verify.0 -
Because they're quite expensive.malcolmg said:
Why not just make it a driving licence, you can get one regardless of whether you drive a car.IanB2 said:
An ID card that you need to access almost-essential things is in effect a compulsory one. One that you needed just for government payments like benefits is in effect an ID card for poor people only.DavidL said:
I don't want compulsory ID cards. But I would be open to the idea of having an optional one that people who want or need to regularise and document their position can easily apply for.OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.
Such a document could have wider effect than a passport because it would also be available to those who are not (yet) entitled to UK citizenship but are nevertheless entitled to be here, rent a house, open a bank account, have a driving licence, be employed etc. I would have thought such a document is going to be essential for EU citizens after any transitional period of Brexit.
We must be more creative with this. British traditional hostility to form filling and dealing with bureaucrats combined with our current laws on immigration have proved a truly toxic mix.
As someone said downthread, the current crisis doesn't so much make the case for an ID card as to indicate that if we introduce one there will be people whose entitlement to one will be very difficult to verify.0 -
new thread
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It’s not ID cards but the requirement to carry them and produce them on demand that is “unBritish”OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Windrush excepted, Javid will be tougher on "illegal" immigration than even May seemed to be.IanB2 said:
Also interesting because May's words on entering office appeared to suggest that she *got* the magnitude of the problems we face and knew things had to change. The lack of more radical action then being down to some combination of lack of imagination to identify workable solutions and lack of political capital to push them through against the inertia and vested interests of the Tory party. Whereas this suggests that no.10 is itself blocking more radical action; not at all what we were promised.Nigelb said:This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.0 -
Yes. I’d rather have a bit more illegal immigration that carry a compulsory ID card.Charles said:
It’s not ID cards but the requirement to carry them and produce them on demand that is “unBritish”OldKingCole said:
While I was originally against ID cards on principle I’m coming round to the idea they might not be such a bad thing after all.DecrepitJohnL said:
Let's see. The first problem for Javid is to clearly differentiate the two groups, and avoid giving any anxiety (or reason to vote Labour) for those who are properly settled, without tying them up in a Kafkaesque nightmare. He might even suggest an amnesty, as the Foreign Secretary already has.surby said:
Windrush excepted, Javid will be tougher on "illegal" immigration than even May seemed to be.IanB2 said:
Also interesting because May's words on entering office appeared to suggest that she *got* the magnitude of the problems we face and knew things had to change. The lack of more radical action then being down to some combination of lack of imagination to identify workable solutions and lack of political capital to push them through against the inertia and vested interests of the Tory party. Whereas this suggests that no.10 is itself blocking more radical action; not at all what we were promised.Nigelb said:This was an interesting aside in the BBC story on Javid* -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43957020
As housing secretary he pushed hard, ultimately unsuccessfully, to make bolder moves than Number 10 and 11 would accept. Already today he has made plain that he's ready to junk existing policy...
His apparent efforts on housing suggest he has at least the right political instincts in one area. As Home Secretary appointed in these particular circumstances, he will have rather more power to argue his corner than he did in his previous job. It will be at least interesting to see what he does next.
*autocorrect suggested Jarvis..... needs cultural re-education.
Another elephant trap Javid must skilfully negotiate is, as made plain by grandees from both parties yesterday, that this issue might be used as a front for the introduction of ID cards. After all, if we had a national database of all citizens, these injustices would not have arisen. Except of course, they would -- when the database was being set up.
It brings out my liberal side.0 -
JJ, many I have not visited either , probably more than yourself shamefully. Hope you get the weather.JosiasJessop said:
I see you are your usual ray of sunshine this morning, Eliza!malcolmg said:
He cannot be any worse than the lying , cheating , incompetent toerags in power at present.JosiasJessop said:
Whilst I understand your motivation (and JRM is so utterly unsuitable to be PM I can scarcely believe sensible Conservatives support him), I fail to believe your membership of Labour does anything other than aid Corbyn and the far left. That is despite your excellent threader and comments.SouthamObserver said:Want to know why I rejoined the Labour party? If the far left is not defeated it means the likes of Rees Mogg, Johnson, Grayling, Leadsom and Patel shaping the future for my kids and their kids. I find that genuinely frightening.
Trump will be our greatest ally after Brexit
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4ad0e3c-4cae-11e8-9812-5f003d09c84c
I don't want my son growing up in an environment of bigotry and hate that JRM or Corbyn promises the country. The way to do that is to counter their views - and of those like them - robustly. It is hard to do that from within the Labour tent, for the reasons Woodcock and others are finding.
I;m planning to be up your way for a few walks in a month or so, if I get my exeat form. There are some beautiful areas up there that I've not really visited before.0
