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Hunt got 55.7% of the vote in Surrey SW in 2017, though his highest voteshare was 59.6% in 2015.Tykejohnno said:
The real Question should be - How good is he at Campaigning ? Cameron was Quite good and Theresa May wasn't ,so how good is he ?TheScreamingEagles said:Who was the PBer that tipped Jeremy Hunt as Theresa May's successor at 100/1?
https://twitter.com/IsabelHardman/status/978690466752487426
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_West_Surrey_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
May got 64.8% in Maidenhead in 2017, though her highest voteshare was 65.8% in 2015.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidenhead_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Cameron got 60.2% in Witney in 2015, also his highest voteshare
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witney_(UK_Parliament_constituency)0 -
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That would however have left her open to the easiest of counter-punches...malcolmg said:0 -
I think the real question is how much of a presence does he have, how well can he forge an image with the public as a potential PM? He's been SoS for health for almost 6 years, I follow politics, but I barely have a mental picture of him. He comes across ok, I believe Dr Foxy has said he is not the worst SOS they have had, which is probably pretty good for 6 years in post, but can he step up?Tykejohnno said:
The real Question should be - How good is he at Campaigning ? Cameron was Quite good and Theresa May wasn't ,so how good is he ?TheScreamingEagles said:Who was the PBer that tipped Jeremy Hunt as Theresa May's successor at 100/1?
https://twitter.com/IsabelHardman/status/9786904667524874260 -
Rather pointless as Westminster will block it and they will lose their majority with the Greens at Holyrood at the next elections anywayTheScreamingEagles said:Oh yes.
This will stop us discussing Brexit.
https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/9786113518065131530 -
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ydoethur said:
It may be. But it has to be said it sounds as though Dodd did rather carve up Brian Leveson:tlg86 said:
Isn't it the case that the revenue have a tough time getting convictions because jurors tend to sympathise with the accused?ydoethur said:
Ken Dodd got off his tax evasion charge when the evidence was absolutely open and shut, so your second point kind of falls...JosiasJessop said:
I agree, but that says more about the observer than the observed. To a certain extent the content matters more than the deliverer or delivery.tlg86 said:
Unfortunately I think it's very important in politics. Cameron just looked and sounded right in a way that Ed Miliband didn't. Nick Clegg looked right too. And the voice can be important. I think someone on here said that they thought Farage has a good voice.JosiasJessop said:I'm just wary of the idea that someone who 'looks' right - by looks or expression - might in some way be more 'correct' than someone who does not.
I mean, just look at my profile pic!
(I await PB's multitude of lawyers to laugh. AIUI court cases often hinge on what people look and sound like over what they say - a defendant in jeans who speaks in monosyllables and constantly wipes his nose on his sleeve might come across less well than one in a suit who speaks in a posh accent. Though I'm willing to be corrected on this.).
'One of my problems was my accountant died suddenly.'
'Did that really matter, Mr Dodd?'
'Well, it mattered to him.'
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Westminster blocking it gives them something to work with, of course.HYUFD said:
Rather pointless as Westminster will block it and they will lose their majority with the Greens at Holyrood at the next elections anywayTheScreamingEagles said:Oh yes.
This will stop us discussing Brexit.
https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/978611351806513153
Personally I thought there were good and sound reasons to say there should not be another one so soon, but after a GE was called when we had started the clock ticking on A50, I think that is a tougher argument.0 -
Not really. By saying they'd hand it back when the furore was in the news got them off the hook, surreptitiously now saying they won't hand it afterall lets them keep the money and there'll be little negative furore.TheWhiteRabbit said:
I'm not sure.Sean_F said:
They might well be in breach of the law if they did otherwise. Charities have to apply their property towards their charitable objects.Scott_P said:
I would have thought this was more about their best interests, and their might be a case to be made for handing it back in the long run.0 -
GSTQ should not be the English anthem, as you say it is absurd that the English anthem is GSTQ when England plays Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Wales or NI at rugby, cricket or football as it is also their opponents anthem too.TheScreamingEagles said:
GSTQ should only be played in the presence of the Queen or a member of the royal family and the more stirring Jerusalem should be the England anthem as it is at the Commonwealth Games. We should also get someone to compose a UK anthem too for Team GB and NI at the Olympics.0 -
After Salmond and Cameron, she would be the third leader to call a referendum and then have to quit after defeatHYUFD said:
Rather pointless as Westminster will block it and they will lose their majority with the Greens at Holyrood at the next elections anywayTheScreamingEagles said:Oh yes.
This will stop us discussing Brexit.
https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/9786113518065131530 -
When working for the Police , the leader of the local council approached me and my colleague moaning about something He then said "Do you know who I am ? My colleague got onto his radio and said "we have a bloke here who does not know who he is.We both got a dressing down but the laughing could be heard in the control room. Nice that sometimes people do get pulled up due to their perceived importance.0
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Given the SNP lost almost half their MPs at the general election after pushing indyref2 not even that really. The SNP tried to get a mandate for indyref2 and Scottish voters gave a resounding No Thanks!kle4 said:
Westminster blocking it gives them something to work with, of course.HYUFD said:
Rather pointless as Westminster will block it and they will lose their majority with the Greens at Holyrood at the next elections anywayTheScreamingEagles said:Oh yes.
This will stop us discussing Brexit.
https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/978611351806513153
Personally I thought there were good and sound reasons to say there should not be another one so soon, but after a GE was called when we had started the clock ticking on A50, I think that is a tougher argument.0 -
Didn't he rate Theresa May at one time, too?TheScreamingEagles said:
David Cameron rates him.Tykejohnno said:
The real Question should be - How good is he at Campaigning ? Cameron was Quite good and Theresa May wasn't ,so how good is he ?TheScreamingEagles said:Who was the PBer that tipped Jeremy Hunt as Theresa May's successor at 100/1?
https://twitter.com/IsabelHardman/status/978690466752487426
That's good enough for me.
She was one of the three he pinpointed as potential successors to him:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-320224840 -
The Welsh anthem is one of the best in the World and my Scots Father in Law said it was easily the bestkle4 said:0 -
Jack Straw once asked the same question in a care home. He got the immortal reply, 'No dear, but if you ask Matron she'll be able to tell you.'Yorkcity said:When working for the Police , the leader of the local council approached me and my colleague moaning about something He then said "Do you know who I am ? My colleague got onto his radio and said "we have a bloke here who does not know who he is.We both got a dressing down but the laughing could be heard in the control room. Nice that sometimes people do get pulled up due to their perceived importance.
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Great story - might have made Shami Chakrabarti smile (probably not)Yorkcity said:When working for the Police , the leader of the local council approached me and my colleague moaning about something He then said "Do you know who I am ? My colleague got onto his radio and said "we have a bloke here who does not know who he is.We both got a dressing down but the laughing could be heard in the control room. Nice that sometimes people do get pulled up due to their perceived importance.
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I get a vision of your fine self taking Malcolm McDowell's part in 'A clockwork orange', your eyes held open as you see images of me in a balaclava ...malcolmg said:
You cannot make meJosiasJessop said:I'm just wary of the idea that someone who 'looks' right - by looks or expression - might in some way be more 'correct' than someone who does not.
I mean, just look at my profile pic!
(And not me in Baklava, which I once mistyped. That would be a very different type of 'vision').0 -
He also tipped Osborne and Boris as the other 2, besides May only one of those still an MP and in the CabinetDanny565 said:
Didn't he rate Theresa May at one time, too?TheScreamingEagles said:
David Cameron rates him.Tykejohnno said:
The real Question should be - How good is he at Campaigning ? Cameron was Quite good and Theresa May wasn't ,so how good is he ?TheScreamingEagles said:Who was the PBer that tipped Jeremy Hunt as Theresa May's successor at 100/1?
https://twitter.com/IsabelHardman/status/978690466752487426
That's good enough for me.
She was one of the three he pinpointed as potential successors to him:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-320224840 -
Piers Morgan coming out for Brexit would have killed it....Ishmael_Z said:
It's just bollocks, it would mean you could sabotage any political campaign by getting someone sufficiently odious to support it.Richard_Tyndall said:
If you follow what I have said you will see I think the whole claim is rubbish. I am just using Meeks' and Topping's own logic against them to show them how idiotic their claims are.Danny565 said:
Isn't it rather counter-productive, from your perspective, to argue that as much as 48% of Brits were "EU fanatics" who were voting for a "single country called Europe"?
I do not believe most Remain voters should be tarred as federalists by association just as I do not believe most Leave voters should be tarred as xenophobes by association. But that is the logic of Meeks and Topping.0 -
Although luckily for her the general election result meant she never got oneoxfordsimon said:
After Salmond and Cameron, she would be the third leader to call a referendum and then have to quit after defeatHYUFD said:
Rather pointless as Westminster will block it and they will lose their majority with the Greens at Holyrood at the next elections anywayTheScreamingEagles said:Oh yes.
This will stop us discussing Brexit.
https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/978611351806513153
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I rather like the Marseillaise. Makes you want to be French, and as such must be a very fine tune indeedBig_G_NorthWales said:
The Welsh anthem is one of the best in the World and my Scots Father in Law said it was easily the bestkle4 said:
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He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.TOPPING said:
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.Philip_Thompson said:
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.TOPPING said:
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.0 -
Ask those protesting yesterday about the Labour Party with Jeremy Corbyn in charge.MarqueeMark said:
Piers Morgan coming out for Brexit would have killed it....Ishmael_Z said:
It's just bollocks, it would mean you could sabotage any political campaign by getting someone sufficiently odious to support it.Richard_Tyndall said:
If you follow what I have said you will see I think the whole claim is rubbish. I am just using Meeks' and Topping's own logic against them to show them how idiotic their claims are.Danny565 said:
Isn't it rather counter-productive, from your perspective, to argue that as much as 48% of Brits were "EU fanatics" who were voting for a "single country called Europe"?
I do not believe most Remain voters should be tarred as federalists by association just as I do not believe most Leave voters should be tarred as xenophobes by association. But that is the logic of Meeks and Topping.0 -
Ah, the arch federalist opines again.AlastairMeeks said:
The best of it can only be made when Leave advocates come to recognise the disfigurement they have done to British politics. There can be no progress till then.harryfaversham said:
An elegant reply but I do feel you are suffering what can only be described as a bereavement and are taking the matter as an absolute affront to your person. It's clear that at present you feel the need to lash out somewhat however the bitter division you mention was also there before the vote but was ignored largely and now it has made itself undeniable intelligent people like yourself (whilst perhaps now feeling like many brexiters before the referendum was confirmed) can, whilst still looking for a "way back" perhaps also use part of your very good brain to think "even if I hate this I love this country (as evidenced by my upset about a bitter division damaging the country) and so I will find ways to make the best of this for the country".AlastairMeeks said:
Solzhenitsyn put it well:harryfaversham said:
I am pro-Brexit......
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I can see though that it might make it easier for you to deal with it by throwing shit at people's motives so you can bask in the glow that people you agree with are good and those you disagree with are evil. I imagine that people with lower intellects might use such a technique too rather than examining the myriad of reasons that went into people's decisions.....
“If only if it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing insidious deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
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I really do believe there are many Remainers who if they spent less time railing about Brexit would be able to contribute positively to the future rather than leaving it to Dr Fox et al but it requires an element of positivity on their part which I hope will come sooner rather than later..... Sometimes in life you have to say "well I wouldn't want to be in this situation in the first place but now we are here how do I make the best of it".
The country is in for a long period of decline.0 -
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?Casino_Royale said:
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.TOPPING said:
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.Philip_Thompson said:
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.TOPPING said:
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.0 -
Betting post
Jeremy Hunt is 22/1 to be next PM with William Hill and 16/1 to be next Con leader with (Ladbrokes, PP, Coral, and Betfred.)
Both still look value in my eye.0 -
Completely random, but on the subject of smiling, does anyone recognize this girl:
https://tinyurl.com/y7sfu8he0 -
GSTQ is the UK Anthem. It isn’t the Welsh, nor the Scots, and Australia and New Zealand have their own now too. Advance Australia Fair is pretty good, as is God defend New Zealand, although there’s too much about God.HYUFD said:
GSTQ should not be the English anthem, as you say it is absurd that the English anthem is GSTQ when England plays Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Wales or NI at rugby, cricket or football as it is also their opponents anthem too.TheScreamingEagles said:
GSTQ should only be played in the presence of the Queen or a member of the royal family and the more stirring Jerusalem should be the England anthem as it is at the Commonwealth Games. We should also get someone to compose a UK anthem too for Team GB and NI at the Olympics.
Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau makes the hair on my neck rise!0 -
No, to the first question, but he was peripheral to the campaign.TOPPING said:
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?Casino_Royale said:
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.TOPPING said:
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.Philip_Thompson said:
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.TOPPING said:
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.0 -
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.Casino_Royale said:
No, to the first question, but he was peripheral to the campaign.TOPPING said:
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?Casino_Royale said:
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.TOPPING said:
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.Philip_Thompson said:
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.TOPPING said:
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.0 -
What a website! Probably asking too much, but a slider to go back in time would be fantastic.0
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I’m curious - may be a lawyer on here can commentrottenborough said:
Afraid I don't know. I haven't had time to plough through all the material. On the surface there are potentially major allegations over funding of Leave campaign. Plus a whole new world (for many people) of data collection by social media.AnneJGP said:
If no-one else is going to bite, I will. What's so extraordinary about it, please?rottenborough said:D'Arcy has been covering parliament for yonks:
https://twitter.com/DArcyTiP/status/978599720976371712
I thought it was interesting comment given how long D'Arcy has been doing parliament stuff.
Yesterday the Stabdards headline was “the Brexit criminal” above an article about Cummings. Today they have an article about him headlined “The Vote Leave money launderer”
In how th cases the headlines are in quotes - I assume they are accurate - and the articles are much more balanced
But given that most people would just st remember the headline aren’t they getting awfully close to libel?0 -
You must be new here.Sean_F said:
Most likely, the majority of voters just weighed up the pros and cons, and voted accordingly.Cyclefree said:
Presumably any Leave voters who used their postal votes and voted before that poster came out are exempt from your criticism?TOPPING said:
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.0 -
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/27/brexit-groups-had-common-plan-to-avoid-election-spending-laws-says-wylie
Are they really suggesting that going £300,000 over the allowed limit swayed the result? Talk about hyperbole
https://i1.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/PA.jpg
which does't even include the cost of HMG's pamphlet.0 -
No takers? Okay, it's the girl from that image people have a habit of posting on here...tlg86 said:Completely random, but on the subject of smiling, does anyone recognize this girl:
https://tinyurl.com/y7sfu8he
https://tinyurl.com/ybczcojn0 -
It is all getting ridiculous really - same old people who simply cannot accept the result. If it wasn't the Russian or Facebook ads or a bus that persuaded 17.4 million people it's apparently £300k spent by a body no one had heard of until a week ago.RobD said:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/27/brexit-groups-had-common-plan-to-avoid-election-spending-laws-says-wylie
Are they really suggesting that going £300,000 over the allowed limit swayed the result? Talk about hyperbole
https://i1.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/PA.jpg
which does't even include the cost of HMG's pamphlet.
Just a shame the Guardian and Observer hasn't invested 1 per cent of the time it has spend on the leave campaigns on looking at the remain side who spent 50 per cent more money and that excludes the £9m on the government leaflet which went to every home. But why would they as they promote the anti Brexit cause every day with little balance at all.
Are we for example suggesting the various remain supporting entities weren't coordinating - all the main political parties in parliament backed remain as did almost every major business body, the TUC and many huge firms and banks.
Frankly I doubt there has been an election in recent years where one or more parties haven't incurred some infringement of some sort. Are we going to rerun every election just in case? Even the Lib Dems caught out and got fined.
I certainly think a review of the system is needed but not frankly a one sided witch hunt from people and papers who are still bitter about the result and still cannot accept it 21 months on.0 -
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.Casino_Royale said:
No, to the first question, but he was peripheral to the campaign.TOPPING said:
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?Casino_Royale said:
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.TOPPING said:
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.Philip_Thompson said:
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.TOPPING said:
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.0 -
Boris was far more the campaign than Farage. Farage ploughed his own furrow and most Leavers rolled our eyes and sighed.
Boris gave the cover of acceptability to vote Leave for many who could not bear Farage.0 -
I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.0 -
Annual elections are the last unfulfilled pledge of the Chartists. Bring it on!brendan16 said:Frankly I doubt there has been an election in recent years where one or more parties haven't incurred some infringement of some sort. Are we going to rerun every election just in case?
0 -
I think what's bothering genuine and ardent Europhiles - rather than people who just voted Remain - is that once out, for all the reasons you give it is going to be bloody hard to make a compelling case to go back in. We will not want to go through all this - even if economic consequences are quite serious - to merely have to take orders from a bunch of, frankly, third rate no hopers who would not have looked out of place in Mussolini's Italy in Brussels again.nielh said:The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Once we are out, we will be staying out. Admittedly, without major reform it seems likely the EU will tear itself to pieces very soon and there would be nothing to rejoin, but that's a side issue.0 -
Huge kudos for your honesty.nielh said:I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.0 -
"Election anoraks can spend hours with this"
"Sunil masturbated, gently."0 -
I was referring to the short campaign. Gove, Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Andrea Leadsom formed the centrepiece of that, together with its orchestration by Cummings and Elliot.Sean_F said:
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.Casino_Royale said:
No, to the first question, but he was peripheral to the campaign.TOPPING said:
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?Casino_Royale said:
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.TOPPING said:
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.Philip_Thompson said:
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.TOPPING said:
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
ThoseTorby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
Farage appeared in one TV debate, and a few televised Q&As, but otherwise his activity was confined to street campaigning in Northern towns, a few PR stunts, and making jibes at the official Leave campaign.
I agree that Aaron Banks' Leave.EU campaign online was fairly effective.0 -
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.Richard_Tyndall said:
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.0 -
No, he wasn't.JosiasJessop said:
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.Casino_Royale said:
No, to the first question, but he was peripheral to the campaign.TOPPING said:
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?Casino_Royale said:
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.TOPPING said:
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.Philip_Thompson said:
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.TOPPING said:
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.0 -
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.Sean_F said:
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.0 -
Yes, I think so.TheScreamingEagles said:Betting post
Jeremy Hunt is 22/1 to be next PM with William Hill and 16/1 to be next Con leader with (Ladbrokes, PP, Coral, and Betfred.)
Both still look value in my eye.0 -
I hope you aren't on a trainSunil_Prasannan said:
"Election anoraks can spend hours with this"
"Sunil masturbated, gently."
0 -
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.JosiasJessop said:
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.Richard_Tyndall said:
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.0 -
Can I beg you to delete that while the edit window is open?Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Election anoraks can spend hours with this"
"Sunil masturbated, gently."0 -
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.nielh said:I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.0 -
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.Richard_Tyndall said:
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.Sean_F said:
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.0 -
Wrong site, Sunil.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Election anoraks can spend hours with this"
"Sunil masturbated, gently."0 -
There was a young man named Farage
Who one day got stuck in his garage
He campaigned so hard
But let down his guard
And fell to an electoral barrage0 -
Where else are we going to find excited discussion of AV?Casino_Royale said:
Wrong site, Sunil.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Election anoraks can spend hours with this"
"Sunil masturbated, gently."
0 -
It comes down to a question of perspective, doesn't it - and at least you're more polite about it than Mr Tyndall. I was on the fence about the vote, and one of the things pushing me to remain was Farage and his ilk - his vision of the country was not one I wanted. Perhaps that meant I noticed him more than I should - or perhaps the opposite is the case for you.Casino_Royale said:
No, he wasn't.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
And in response to a previous post: you cannot just take the short campaign in isolation: that was just the culmination of a multi-year campaign, to which Farage was front and centre.
Brexit is Farage's victory. Frankly I despise the guy and much of his politics, but I'll give him that much, He played a blinder.0 -
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.Casino_Royale said:
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.Richard_Tyndall said:
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.Sean_F said:
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.0 -
Needs more “xenophobic lies” - rhymes with “delicious pies” if that helps.Sunil_Prasannan said:There was a young man named Farage
Who one day got stuck in his garage
He campaigned so hard
But let down his guard
And fell to an electoral barrage0 -
Farage was the fourth most featured politician in the media coverage during the referendum campaign.
Featured more than Michael Gove and Jeremy Corbyn.
https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-referendum/uk-news-coverage-2016-eu-referendum-report-5-6-may-22-june-2016/0 -
It really is a case of Brexit Tourettes. You just can't help yourself.AlastairMeeks said:
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.Casino_Royale said:
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.Richard_Tyndall said:
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.Sean_F said:
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.0 -
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.JosiasJessop said:
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.Richard_Tyndall said:
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.0 -
And the other point, of course, is that they stand a far better chance of fixing the existential mess they are in without us being involved. Everyone's a winner!ydoethur said:
I think what's bothering genuine and ardent Europhiles - rather than people who just voted Remain - is that once out, for all the reasons you give it is going to be bloody hard to make a compelling case to go back in. We will not want to go through all this - even if economic consequences are quite serious - to merely have to take orders from a bunch of, frankly, third rate no hopers who would not have looked out of place in Mussolini's Italy in Brussels again.nielh said:The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Once we are out, we will be staying out. Admittedly, without major reform it seems likely the EU will tear itself to pieces very soon and there would be nothing to rejoin, but that's a side issue.0 -
Are you finally admitting that you are a tosser, Sunil?Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Election anoraks can spend hours with this"
"Sunil masturbated, gently."
(In light of the bad-temepered nature of this thread, I should stress that is intended as a joke!)
0 -
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.hunchman said:
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.nielh said:I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
WRT to the European Arrest Warrant in this case, can it be argued it is invalid as the Spanish constitution is itself illegal - that is, it breaches the right of self-determination enshrined in international law?0 -
In addition: I somewhat reluctantly voted remain, but I do not see myself as being on a 'side', yet alone the losing one. I did not campaign or invest in either 'side'. I only voted. I have freely criticised both sides. As I have said many times, I am content with leave's victory, and hope Brexit is a success.
I will only be on the 'losing' side if Brexit fails the country. As will all of us, leaver or remainer.
Too many posters - both remain and leave - are fighting a battle that is utterly harmful to the country.0 -
Not at all. You said something that was plainly false and I called you out on it.JosiasJessop said:
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.JosiasJessop said:
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.Richard_Tyndall said:
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.0 -
0
-
Eh?!ydoethur said:
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.hunchman said:
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.nielh said:I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Are you being ironic?
0 -
Blame the media not the Leave campaign who tried to shut him out. And I would certainly say he drove more people away from voting leave than he attracted. There are people on here who have said that it was the fact that Farage was in favour of Leave that made them decide to vote Remain. Indeed I remember a long discussion last year about how daft it was to vote for or against something of such importance simply because of someone you did or did not like.TheScreamingEagles said:Farage was the fourth most featured politician in the media coverage during the referendum campaign.
Featured more than Michael Gove and Jeremy Corbyn.
https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-referendum/uk-news-coverage-2016-eu-referendum-report-5-6-may-22-june-2016/
Farage won the campaign to have a referendum. If he had been anywhere near the official face of the campaign for Brexit we would have lost.
We should be eternally grateful to the Electoral Commission for choosing in favour of Vote Leave.0 -
No. Why?Theuniondivvie said:
Eh?!ydoethur said:
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.hunchman said:
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.nielh said:I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Are you being ironic?0 -
Ah the delusional Federast speaks again.AlastairMeeks said:
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.Casino_Royale said:
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.Richard_Tyndall said:
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.Sean_F said:
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.0 -
Um No. Verhofstadt was very clear and forceful in his condemnation of the Spanish Government's handling of the referendum. There were a very few others but his was by far the loudest and most welcome voice.Theuniondivvie said:
Eh?!ydoethur said:
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.hunchman said:
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.nielh said:I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Are you being ironic?0 -
Gosh this VAR is such an improvement, isn’t it?0
-
It is not 'plainly false', as Mr Eagle's comment shows. Farage was central and not peripheral.Richard_Tyndall said:
Not at all. You said something that was plainly false and I called you out on it.JosiasJessop said:
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.JosiasJessop said:
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.Richard_Tyndall said:
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.
And I'm calling you out on it. 0 -
Verhofstadt actually does talk a lot of sense, especially on wider foreign affairs where he has a much better grasp of the issues than any current British politician.Richard_Tyndall said:
Um No. Verhofstadt was very clear and forceful in his condemnation of the Spanish Government's handling of the referendum. There were a very few others but his was by far the loudest and most welcome voice.Theuniondivvie said:
Eh?!ydoethur said:
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.hunchman said:
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.nielh said:I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Are you being ironic?
However, he spoils it whenever he talks about matters pertaining directly to the EU itself, where he invariably talks nonsense.0 -
It is of course false. As I explained in my response to Mr Eagles. You are desperate for to try and rationalise your failed vote and you do so by latching onto a hate figure and blaming him for your decision. As was debated last year when this came up, it is infantile to make such an important decision about the future of the country based on the fact you don't like a particular person.JosiasJessop said:
It is not 'plainly false', as Mr Eagle's comment shows. Farage was central and not peripheral.Richard_Tyndall said:
Not at all. You said something that was plainly false and I called you out on it.JosiasJessop said:
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.JosiasJessop said:
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.Richard_Tyndall said:
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.
And I'm calling you out on it.
Farage was not part of the official campaign, he was kept as far away as possible even though the media kept trying to drag him front and centre. If you really were silly enough to make a decision about the future of the country based on a petty dislike of a third rate individual then more fool you.0 -
I just ignore him.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah the delusional Federast speaks again.AlastairMeeks said:
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.Casino_Royale said:
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.Richard_Tyndall said:
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.Sean_F said:
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.0 -
There wouldn’t have been a referendum without him but, quite frankly, during the campaign I wished he’d kept his mouth shut and confined himself to street campaigning.JosiasJessop said:
It comes down to a question of perspective, doesn't it - and at least you're more polite about it than Mr Tyndall. I was on the fence about the vote, and one of the things pushing me to remain was Farage and his ilk - his vision of the country was not one I wanted. Perhaps that meant I noticed him more than I should - or perhaps the opposite is the case for you.Casino_Royale said:
No, he wasn't.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
And in response to a previous post: you cannot just take the short campaign in isolation: that was just the culmination of a multi-year campaign, to which Farage was front and centre.
Brexit is Farage's victory. Frankly I despise the guy and much of his politics, but I'll give him that much, He played a blinder.0 -
I enjoy taunting him. Just as he enjoys taunting Brexiteers.Casino_Royale said:
I just ignore him.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah the delusional Federast speaks again.AlastairMeeks said:
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.Casino_Royale said:
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.Richard_Tyndall said:
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.Sean_F said:
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.
Besides it gave me the chance to use that wonderful word that Mrs Thatcher coined.
0 -
And yet I voted leave despite Farage and with a heavy heart because it was inevitably going to lead to the loss of Cameron and Osborne who I greatly admired. Many of the Leavers left me cold but I could not see an EU I wanted any part of or any prospects, after Cameron’s efforts, that it was going to get any better.JosiasJessop said:
It comes down to a question of perspective, doesn't it - and at least you're more polite about it than Mr Tyndall. I was on the fence about the vote, and one of the things pushing me to remain was Farage and his ilk - his vision of the country was not one I wanted. Perhaps that meant I noticed him more than I should - or perhaps the opposite is the case for you.Casino_Royale said:
No, he wasn't.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
And in response to a previous post: you cannot just take the short campaign in isolation: that was just the culmination of a multi-year campaign, to which Farage was front and centre.
Brexit is Farage's victory. Frankly I despise the guy and much of his politics, but I'll give him that much, He played a blinder.
What this shows is those who claim Leavers or Remainers voted for any consistent reason are frankly delusional.
0 -
Can you link to that 'clear and forceful' condemnation please?Richard_Tyndall said:
Um No. Verhofstadt was very clear and forceful in his condemnation of the Spanish Government's handling of the referendum. There were a very few others but his was by far the loudest and most welcome voice.Theuniondivvie said:
Eh?!ydoethur said:
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.hunchman said:
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.nielh said:I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Are you being ironic?
A quick google produces mealy mouthed equivocation and assertions that Catalan politicians deceived & manipulated voters with their 'fixed' referendum while failing to try and find genuine dialogue and compromise with those lovely PP fellows.0 -
Fair enough.Richard_Tyndall said:
I enjoy taunting him. Just as he enjoys taunting Brexiteers.Casino_Royale said:
I just ignore him.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah the delusional Federast speaks again.AlastairMeeks said:
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.Casino_Royale said:
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.Richard_Tyndall said:
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.Sean_F said:
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.
Besides it gave me the chance to use that wonderful word that Mrs Thatcher coined.0 -
Well if it is the UK anthem it certainly should not be the English anthem, though given Australia and New Zealand have the Queen as their monarch too it should not really be the UK anthem either.OldKingCole said:
GSTQ is the UK Anthem. It isn’t the Welsh, nor the Scots, and Australia and New Zealand have their own now too. Advance Australia Fair is pretty good, as is God defend New Zealand, although there’s too much about God.HYUFD said:
GSTQ should not be the English anthem, as you say it is absurd that the English anthem is GSTQ when England plays Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Wales or NI at rugby, cricket or football as it is also their opponents anthem too.TheScreamingEagles said:
GSTQ should only be played in the presence of the Queen or a member of the royal family and the more stirring Jerusalem should be the England anthem as it is at the Commonwealth Games. We should also get someone to compose a UK anthem too for Team GB and NI at the Olympics.
Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau makes the hair on my neck rise!
As you say every country where the Queen is monarch has its own anthem and so should England. GSTQ should revert to being a royal anthem played in the presence of the monarch, rsther like 'Heil to the Chief' in the US when the President is present0 -
Tyndall and Casino’s delusion aside what extraordinary news about the Manchester Fire Service failings during the Arena bombing.0
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Yes; I do believe it is entirely legitimate to consider as one of the factors in a decision the people who are supporting or opposing it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Blame the media not the Leave campaign who tried to shut him out. And I would certainly say he drove more people away from voting leave than he attracted. There are people on here who have said that it was the fact that Farage was in favour of Leave that made them decide to vote Remain. Indeed I remember a long discussion last year about how daft it was to vote for or against something of such importance simply because of someone you did or did not like.TheScreamingEagles said:Farage was the fourth most featured politician in the media coverage during the referendum campaign.
Featured more than Michael Gove and Jeremy Corbyn.
https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-referendum/uk-news-coverage-2016-eu-referendum-report-5-6-may-22-june-2016/
Farage won the campaign to have a referendum. If he had been anywhere near the official face of the campaign for Brexit we would have lost.
We should be eternally grateful to the Electoral Commission for choosing in favour of Vote Leave.
It is silly to base one's decision about something important just on those people, but the fact of their support is information.
If you disliked Mr Farage sufficiently, that would be good reason to examine your support for Brexit carefully; but not enough to change your mind if you'd reached that position on solid grounds.
For myself, in the end, there was so much disinformation & mud-slinging that I more or less ignored it all & went by gut feeling.0 -
Oh, come off it. It was not 'my failed vote'. I'm not 'latching onto a hate figure', and least of all am I 'blaming him for (my) decision'.Richard_Tyndall said:It is of course false. As I explained in my response to Mr Eagles. You are desperate for to try and rationalise your failed vote and you do so by latching onto a hate figure and blaming him for your decision. As was debated last year when this came up, it is infantile to make such an important decision about the future of the country based on the fact you don't like a particular person.
Farage was not part of the official campaign, he was kept as far away as possible even though the media kept trying to drag him front and centre. If you really were silly enough to make a decision about the future of the country based on a petty dislike of a third rate individual then more fool you.
In fact I said before the referendum that I wanted one, and afterwards I've said I don't regret having had one (though we've argued about the timing thereof before).
Many factors affected my vote: in fact, it's probably the hardest political decision I've had to make. Farage was just one factor pushing me towards remain, amongst several; as an example, the concern about the EU's direction was one towards leave. And you'll find plenty of posts where I say as much from the time.
You are being very silly.0 -
It’s a shame you’ve become a mini-me to another poster.TOPPING said:Tyndall and Casino’s delusion aside what extraordinary news about the Manchester Fire Service failings during the Arena bombing.
I thought you were your own man.0 -
I believe GSTQ is the Royal Anthem in at least some of the Commonwealth realms, and is played at the arrival of the local Governor-General.HYUFD said:
Well if it is the UK anthem it certainly should not be the English anthem, though given Australia and New Zealand have the Queen as their monarch too it should not really be the UK anthem either.OldKingCole said:
GSTQ is the UK Anthem. It isn’t the Welsh, nor the Scots, and Australia and New Zealand have their own now too. Advance Australia Fair is pretty good, as is God defend New Zealand, although there’s too much about God.HYUFD said:
GSTQ should not be the English anthem, as you say it is absurd that the English anthem is GSTQ when England plays Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Wales or NI at rugby, cricket or football as it is also their opponents anthem too.TheScreamingEagles said:
GSTQ should only be played in the presence of the Queen or a member of the royal family and the more stirring Jerusalem should be the England anthem as it is at the Commonwealth Games. We should also get someone to compose a UK anthem too for Team GB and NI at the Olympics.
Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau makes the hair on my neck rise!
As you say every country where the Queen is monarch has its own anthem and so should England. GSTQ should revert to being a royal anthem played in the presence of the monarch, rsther like 'Heil to the Chief' in the US when the President is present0 -
None so blind...Casino_Royale said:
It’s a shame you’ve become a mini-me to another poster.TOPPING said:Tyndall and Casino’s delusion aside what extraordinary news about the Manchester Fire Service failings during the Arena bombing.
I thought you were your own man.0 -
Yes, and I could easily have voted the same way, for much of the same reasons. In the end my balance came down on the other side. Despite what Mr Tyndall seems to think, it wasn't an easy choice, and neither am I permanently wedded to my vote.DavidL said:
And yet I voted leave despite Farage and with a heavy heart because it was inevitably going to lead to the loss of Cameron and Osborne who I greatly admired. Many of the Leavers left me cold but I could not see an EU I wanted any part of or any prospects, after Cameron’s efforts, that it was going to get any better.JosiasJessop said:
It comes down to a question of perspective, doesn't it - and at least you're more polite about it than Mr Tyndall. I was on the fence about the vote, and one of the things pushing me to remain was Farage and his ilk - his vision of the country was not one I wanted. Perhaps that meant I noticed him more than I should - or perhaps the opposite is the case for you.Casino_Royale said:
No, he wasn't.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
And in response to a previous post: you cannot just take the short campaign in isolation: that was just the culmination of a multi-year campaign, to which Farage was front and centre.
Brexit is Farage's victory. Frankly I despise the guy and much of his politics, but I'll give him that much, He played a blinder.
What this shows is those who claim Leavers or Remainers voted for any consistent reason are frankly delusional.0 -
Having two campaigns was actually positive, it allowed farage to dog whistle while giving liberal leavers cover that he wasn't the official campaign. For me Jo Cox was a big turning point, without that 57/43 nailed on. The polls were all moving to leave until that event.Casino_Royale said:
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.Richard_Tyndall said:
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.Sean_F said:
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.0 -
Your certainty that leave voters are all as morally pure as yourself is touching, but delusional.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is of course false. As I explained in my response to Mr Eagles. You are desperate for to try and rationalise your failed vote and you do so by latching onto a hate figure and blaming him for your decision. As was debated last year when this came up, it is infantile to make such an important decision about the future of the country based on the fact you don't like a particular person.JosiasJessop said:
It is not 'plainly false', as Mr Eagle's comment shows. Farage was central and not peripheral.Richard_Tyndall said:
Not at all. You said something that was plainly false and I called you out on it.JosiasJessop said:
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.JosiasJessop said:
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.Richard_Tyndall said:
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.
And I'm calling you out on it.
Farage was not part of the official campaign, he was kept as far away as possible even though the media kept trying to drag him front and centre. If you really were silly enough to make a decision about the future of the country based on a petty dislike of a third rate individual then more fool you.
0 -
https://www.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstadt/posts/10156139319250016:0Theuniondivvie said:Can you link to that 'clear and forceful' condemnation please?
A quick google produces mealy mouthed equivocation and assertions that Catalan politicians deceived & manipulated voters with their 'fixed' referendum while failing to try and find genuine dialogue and compromise with those lovely PP fellows.
There were also a number of tweets at the time.0 -
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Richard is very special. He wasn’t taken in by the simplistic immigration argument that @HYUFD constantly tells us is the reason people voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
Your certainty that leave voters are all as morally pure as yourself is touching, but delusional.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is of course false. As I explained in my response to Mr Eagles. You are desperate for to try and rationalise your failed vote and you do so by latching onto a hate figure and blaming him for your decision. As was debated last year when this came up, it is infantile to make such an important decision about the future of the country based on the fact you don't like a particular person.JosiasJessop said:
It is not 'plainly false', as Mr Eagle's comment shows. Farage was central and not peripheral.Richard_Tyndall said:
Not at all. You said something that was plainly false and I called you out on it.JosiasJessop said:
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.Richard_Tyndall said:
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.JosiasJessop said:
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.Richard_Tyndall said:
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.JosiasJessop said:No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.
And I'm calling you out on it.
Farage was not part of the official campaign, he was kept as far away as possible even though the media kept trying to drag him front and centre. If you really were silly enough to make a decision about the future of the country based on a petty dislike of a third rate individual then more fool you.0
