I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Those who voted for a Remain campaign that included people who believed we should join a Federalist EU and adopt the Euro implicitly agreed with the federalist, pro Euro agenda.
That at least is the logical conclusion of your claims.
You seem to think your own side’s antics are going to be more wholesome than last time. That seems optimistic.
The optimism is in this charming delusion that there will be a 'next time'
If the public believe in increasing numbers that Brexit was a mistake there will be a next time. Right now Leavers are doing their best to ensure that.
The public have very little to do with it. As in 1975 and 2016, it'll be tactical party considerations that matter most. And the considerations at the moment are that neither the Tory nor Labour leaderships have the slightest interest in reopening a question that's been answered, and every incentive not to do so. So it won't be.
If the public decisively turn against Brexit it will soon become in someone's interest to hold a referendum.
In nearly two years since EURef1, there's been virtually no movement. It seems highly unlikely that that there would suddenly be any decisive movement in either direction before March 2019 and probably before December 2020 - only the experience of events is likely to shift opinion and at the moment, events are simply reinforcing opinion on both sides.
But it certainly isn't in May's interests to reopen a debate that would split her party down the middle when it's currently more-or-less united (and that applies to any future Tory leader), and where she'd have to advocate *something*. It's not in Corbyn's interest to advocate a vote that would divide him from the great majority of his MPs and activists.
In truth, it wouldn't matter if 60, 65 or 70 per cent wanted Britain back in unless it started affecting voting intention. Only then might parties think about reacting to it. But that's not going to happen in the next 12 months (or, to deal with the realistic deadline, next three months).
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Indeed, great credit to Mr Farage for articulating the thoughts & feelings of those whom the establishment preferred to ignore.
Mr Farage's following in the country was so ardent, so committed to him personally that very few people could be persuaded to vote for him or his party in GE after GE.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
He would be reminded of his history as banana man?
That's the odd thing. One slightly amusing photograph of a politician with a banana dominated his career (though his own cowardice in not standing against Brown is more important). Yet Boris has an extremely colourful past and gets a free pass, as does Corbyn's odious views and history.
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
I do hope you will one day see that us brexiters are not evil xenophobes and stupid racists but, in the same way that those on the left and right simply often have equal good intentions but different paths to a solution, just truly believe from our own experience and calculations that there is a different "way".
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Hmmm, I didn't vote "for a xenophobic campaign" - I voted for a de-coupling of the U.K. From the EU and was prepared that the extent of the de-coupling would have to be determined, however for me it was important that we voted to leave. A soft Brexit would in time have probably become harder as the UK and EU moved in different directions and a hard Brexit worst being brutal at first would also possibly have benefits. The campaign had absolutely no bearing on my decision.
I can see though that it might make it easier for you to deal with it by throwing shit at people's motives so you can bask in the glow that people you agree with are good and those you disagree with are evil. I imagine that people with lower intellects might use such a technique too rather than examining the myriad of reasons that went into people's decisions.....
He would be reminded of his history as banana man?
That's the odd thing. One slightly amusing photograph of a politician with a banana dominated his career (though his own cowardice in not standing against Brown is more important). Yet Boris has an extremely colourful past and gets a free pass, as does Corbyn's odious views and history.
Because David Miliband was such a beige/vanilla meaningless politician who didn't seem to stand for anything apart from being "centre" and "not Brown". So the banana stood out as the most interesting thing about him.
Boris and Corbyn are interesting. Whether you like them or not there is something about them. What else was interesting about DMiliband?
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
Having installed one of the last generation and watching him flounder I doubt libdems would be keen on another failed retread.
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
I wouldn't toch DM, and the prospect of some drop-in being selected by the LDs for a winnable seat in one of our increasingly rare by elections approaches zero. The only major Ex Labour figures who would be welcome would be sitting MPs or similar.
Once Uncle Vince goes in a year, then I would hope for a new leader with a bit of oomph. Lamb ideally, but there are others. Personally I would have kept Farron.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Those who voted for a Remain campaign that included people who believed we should join a Federalist EU and adopt the Euro implicitly agreed with the federalist, pro Euro agenda.
That at least is the logical conclusion of your claims.
Er, no.
Er yes. The logic, if it applies at all, applies both ways. You dont get to pick and choose.
Personally I think it is rubbish in both instances but that is at least consistent. Unlike your floundering.
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
I wouldn't toch DM, and the prospect of some drop-in being selected by the LDs for a winnable seat in one of our increasingly rare by elections approaches zero. The only major Ex Labour figures who would be welcome would be sitting MPs or similar.
Once Uncle Vince goes in a year, then I would hope for a new leader with a bit of oomph. Lamb ideally, but there are others. Personally I would have kept Farron.
The habit of leader resignation the day or so after an election defeat I feel its detrimental to the party and the process of evaluation and rebuilding.
What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who has made so little real impact on politics, who is nonetheless still talked about by political commentators so much. When the books of political history are written, his only mention is going to be that he was Ed Miliband's brother (and poor Ed himself is probably not going to be getting much space in those history books).
What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
I wouldn't toch DM, and the prospect of some drop-in being selected by the LDs for a winnable seat in one of our increasingly rare by elections approaches zero. The only major Ex Labour figures who would be welcome would be sitting MPs or similar.
Once Uncle Vince goes in a year, then I would hope for a new leader with a bit of oomph. Lamb ideally, but there are others. Personally I would have kept Farron.
The habit of leader resignation the day or so after an election defeat I feel its detrimental to the party and the process of evaluation and rebuilding.
I agree. Indeed it is responsible for many of the poor choices that parties have made in recent years, right down to UKIP.
What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.
And would defecting Labour MPs harbor ambitions to lead the party? D Miliband would not automatically be an asset.
What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.
I don't think any Labour Centrists are in seats that they could hold if they defected, even if they wanted to do so. I think they realise that post Corbyn the party will chhose a different style and direction, depending on results. That may well favour the soft rather than hard left.
LDs have had a major expansion, mostly from core Remainers, so need to get past Brexit before developing a more cohesive set of policies.
What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.
And would defecting Labour MPs harbor ambitions to lead the party. D Miliband would not automatically be an asset.
I think he would, on the 'young cardinals/old popes' principle.
Edit: Not that he's old, of course, but he's been around so long that it looks as though he ought to be, and he could be seen as the transitional figure.
The Evening Standard reveals a Momentum plot to oust Simon Hogg, the moderate Labour group leader on Wandsworth Council, after the local elections in May
What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.
I don't think any Labour Centrists are in seats that they could hold if they defected, even if they wanted to do so. I think they realise that post Corbyn the party will chhose a different style and direction, depending on results. That may well favour the soft rather than hard left.
LDs have had a major expansion, mostly from core Remainers, so need to get past Brexit before developing a more cohesive set of policies.
Subject to the composition of the membership, nec, plp and conference decisions. There is no certainty the next leader won't be Mcdonald or similar
I do hope you will one day see that us brexiters are not evil xenophobes and stupid racists but, in the same way that those on the left and right simply often have equal good intentions but different paths to a solution, just truly believe from our own experience and calculations that there is a different "way".
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Hmmm, I didn't vote "for a xenophobic campaign" - I voted for a de-coupling of the U.K. From the EU and was prepared that the extent of the de-coupling would have to be determined, however for me it was important that we voted to leave. A soft Brexit would in time have probably become harder as the UK and EU moved in different directions and a hard Brexit worst being brutal at first would also possibly have benefits. The campaign had absolutely no bearing on my decision.
I can see though that it might make it easier for you to deal with it by throwing shit at people's motives so you can bask in the glow that people you agree with are good and those you disagree with are evil. I imagine that people with lower intellects might use such a technique too rather than examining the myriad of reasons that went into people's decisions.....
Solzhenitsyn put it well:
“If only if it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing insidious deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
I do not believe Leavers are all intrinsically evil. I do believe that in their willingness to pursue a mad obsession dear to their heart, no matter what banner they fell in behind, they have delivered a grievous blow to the national fabric. By ignoring what they were voting for in reality, and continuing to do so, they - and you - are perpetuating a bitter division that will drag Britain down for the indefinite future.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Those who voted for a Remain campaign that included people who believed we should join a Federalist EU and adopt the Euro implicitly agreed with the federalist, pro Euro agenda.
That at least is the logical conclusion of your claims.
Er, no.
Er yes. The logic, if it applies at all, applies both ways. You dont get to pick and choose.
Personally I think it is rubbish in both instances but that is at least consistent. Unlike your floundering.
Farage was Leave’s talisman.
Whatever campaign he did or didn’t front. The EU Referendum was him. He was far from a peripheral figure. Le Referendum c’etait lui.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Those who voted for a Remain campaign that included people who believed we should join a Federalist EU and adopt the Euro implicitly agreed with the federalist, pro Euro agenda.
That at least is the logical conclusion of your claims.
Er, no.
Er yes. The logic, if it applies at all, applies both ways. You dont get to pick and choose.
Personally I think it is rubbish in both instances but that is at least consistent. Unlike your floundering.
Farage was Leave’s talisman.
Whatever campaign he did or didn’t front. The EU Referendum was him. He was far from a peripheral figure. Le Referendum c’etait lui.
Clearly untrue given that the party he led only managed 12% of the vote whilst Leave got 52%.
Face it federalist. The logic is impeccable. After all it is your own.
I don't think any Labour Centrists are in seats that they could hold if they defected, even if they wanted to do so. I think they realise that post Corbyn the party will chhose a different style and direction, depending on results. That may well favour the soft rather than hard left.
The trouble is that the hard left now have a firm, and ever-increasing, grip on most of the levers of power in the party. The sane wing of the party can't expect anything to turn up and save it anytime soon, even if Corbyn does retire to spend more time with his allotment and manhole-covers.
To be clear, I don't think there will be a significant split-off. I think by far the most likely outcome is that many sane Labour MPs will drift off and do other things, and the rest will just glower in the corner.
The detail of the poll is noteworthy. No one really is changing their minds. The change is among those who didn’t vote in 2016, who are decisively breaking for Remain. This is the short term protection and the long term risk for Leave.
But for some reason Leavers aren’t beginning to think about how to win new converts.
Because they don't need to win converts. Remain ceases to exist as an option on 29/3/2019 and realistically ceases to be an option long before then.
After that rejoin needs to win enough converts to overtake inertia.
I would have thought that Rejoin inside the transition period would be possible: after all, we would still be subject to EU law and part of the Customs Union.
However, I don't think it likely at all. The people have made their decision, and the polls all show very little support indeed for reversing the decision.
As has always been the case, the biggest risk to this is a serious recession. People might say that their decision is about sovereignty, but paying the mortgage usually trumps sovereignty on a day-to-day basis. (For the record, a recession is far more likely to be caused by the UK's structural imbalances. But it will be blames on Brexit.)
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.
I do hope you will one day see that us brexiters are not evil xenophobes and stupid racists but, in the same way that those on the left and right simply often have equal good intentions but different paths to a solution, just truly believe from our own experience and calculations that there is a different "way".
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Hmmm, I didn't vote "for a xenophobic campaign" - I voted for a de-coupling of the U.K. From the EU and was prepared that the extent of the de-coupling would have to be determined, however for me it was important that we voted to leave. A soft Brexit would in time have probably become harder as the UK and EU moved in different directions and a hard Brexit worst being brutal at first would also possibly have benefits. The campaign had absolutely no bearing on my decision.
I can see though that it might make it easier for you to deal with it by throwing shit at people's motives so you can bask in the glow that people you agree with are good and those you disagree with are evil. I imagine that people with lower intellects might use such a technique too rather than examining the myriad of reasons that went into people's decisions.....
Solzhenitsyn put it well:
“If only if it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing insidious deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
I do not believe Leavers are all intrinsically evil. I do believe that in their willingness to pursue a mad obsession dear to their heart, no matter what banner they fell in behind, they have delivered a grievous blow to the national fabric. By ignoring what they were voting for in reality, and continuing to do so, they - and you - are perpetuating a bitter division that will drag Britain down for the indefinite future.
In reality you were voting for a single country called Europe.
Don't ever try to claim again that you were anything other than an EU fanatic.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
I voted Remain and I'm afraid to say that a number of the Remain supporting posts on here over the last few days are not doing the Remain cause any good whatsoever - indeed they are so over the top and hysterical that they will have the precise opposite effect to what the writer wants.
When I read one post yesterday I literally burst out laughing thinking it must be a spoof - it would have fitted perfectly in Private Eye.
If no-one else is going to bite, I will. What's so extraordinary about it, please?
Afraid I don't know. I haven't had time to plough through all the material. On the surface there are potentially major allegations over funding of Leave campaign. Plus a whole new world (for many people) of data collection by social media.
I thought it was interesting comment given how long D'Arcy has been doing parliament stuff.
I voted Remain and I'm afraid to say that a number of the Remain supporting posts on here over the last few days are not doing the Remain cause any good whatsoever - indeed they are so over the top and hysterical that they will have the precise opposite effect to what the writer wants.
When I read one post yesterday I literally burst out laughing thinking it must be a spoof - it would have fitted perfectly in Private Eye.
There is no Remain campaign. There is an analysis of the Leave vote.
I voted Remain and I'm afraid to say that a number of the Remain supporting posts on here over the last few days are not doing the Remain cause any good whatsoever - indeed they are so over the top and hysterical that they will have the precise opposite effect to what the writer wants.
When I read one post yesterday I literally burst out laughing thinking it must be a spoof - it would have fitted perfectly in Private Eye.
Would that be the one likening London to Stalingrad, or somesuch?
Whoever would have thought that Theresa May in two short weeks would become the de facto leader of the West facing down Putin
It appears the whole sorry mess has been handled very well by the government from the beginning - the main sad issue being the infection of the police officer, which may have happened before they had much of a clue what was going on.
I'm not their greatest fan, but May and Boris have gone up on my estimation.
Putin would have got off with no censure if Corbyn has been in charge: he'd be busy blaming our own people.
You mean "engaging in crackpot theories blaming "the Jewish run MI5", I think.
What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.
I don't think any Labour Centrists are in seats that they could hold if they defected, even if they wanted to do so. I think they realise that post Corbyn the party will chhose a different style and direction, depending on results. That may well favour the soft rather than hard left.
LDs have had a major expansion, mostly from core Remainers, so need to get past Brexit before developing a more cohesive set of policies.
This is an important point. Is there any great groundswell of demand for Centrist politics? The recent GE would suggest not. The LD's are languishing for a reason. Not because of their firm anti-Brexit position or the Coalition, but simply because their philosophy of pro-market, compassionate Internationalism is out of favour. The only calls for a Centre Party re-alignment seem to come from journalists and politicians out-of-favour in their current Party and partisan Tories hoping for a wave of Labour defections. Not from ordinary voters (in any great number anyway).
Led by Farron, Cable, D Miliband or AN Other would not change this.
I do hope you will one day see that us brexiters are not evil xenophobes and stupid racists but, in the same way that those on the left and right simply often have equal good intentions but different paths to a solution, just truly believe from our own experience and calculations that there is a different "way".
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Hmmm, I didn't vote "for a xenophobic campaign" - I voted for a de-coupling of the U.K. From the EU and was prepared that the extent of the de-coupling would have to be determined, however for me it was important that we voted to leave. A soft Brexit would in time have probably become harder as the UK and EU moved in different directions and a hard Brexit worst being brutal at first would also possibly have benefits. The campaign had absolutely no bearing on my decision.
I can see though that it might make it easier for you to deal with it by throwing shit at people's motives so you can bask in the glow that people you agree with are good and those you disagree with are evil. I imagine that people with lower intellects might use such a technique too rather than examining the myriad of reasons that went into people's decisions.....
Solzhenitsyn put it well:
“If only if it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing insidious deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
I do not believe Leavers are all intrinsically evil. I do believe that in their willingness to pursue a mad obsession dear to their heart, no matter what banner they fell in behind, they have delivered a grievous blow to the national fabric. By ignoring what they were voting for in reality, and continuing to do so, they - and you - are perpetuating a bitter division that will drag Britain down for the indefinite future.
In reality you were voting for a single country called Europe.
Don't ever try to claim again that you were anything other than an EU fanatic.
Isn't it rather counter-productive, from your perspective, to argue that as much as 48% of Brits were "EU fanatics" who were voting for a "single country called Europe"?
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
+1
Reflective and self-aware posters would recognise when their behaviour is starting to alienate hitherto sympathetic voices on their own side, and adjust it accordingly to avoid the outcome they most fear.
I find such posts heartening: it’s that sense of fair play, moderation and perspective that gives me such huge confidence in Britain’s future.
We truly live in a fantastic country, filled with fair-minded and considerate people.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
+1
Reflective and self-aware posters would recognise when their behaviour is starting to alienate hitherto sympathetic voices on their own side, and adjust it accordingly to avoid the outcome they most fear.
I find such posts heartening: it’s that sense of fair play, moderation and perspective that gives me such huge confidence in Britain’s future.
We truly live in a fantastic country, filled with fair-minded and considerate people.
Quite right. Fortunately the fanatics on both sides are in the minority.
If no-one else is going to bite, I will. What's so extraordinary about it, please?
Must be the pink hair.
Being quite interested in fashions, I was wondering whether any of the gentlemen's style experts on here can tell me why the beard is left in its (presumably) natural colour?
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
+1
Reflective and self-aware posters would recognise when their behaviour is starting to alienate hitherto sympathetic voices on their own side, and adjust it accordingly to avoid the outcome they most fear.
I find such posts heartening: it’s that sense of fair play, moderation and perspective that gives me such huge confidence in Britain’s future.
We truly live in a fantastic country, filled with fair-minded and considerate people.
I don’t agree. Britain is now a country where pandering to xenophobia works. It is, for the foreseeable future, in decline.
I voted Remain and I'm afraid to say that a number of the Remain supporting posts on here over the last few days are not doing the Remain cause any good whatsoever - indeed they are so over the top and hysterical that they will have the precise opposite effect to what the writer wants.
When I read one post yesterday I literally burst out laughing thinking it must be a spoof - it would have fitted perfectly in Private Eye.
It shows why a second referendum would probably be a disaster for Remain.
Isn't it rather counter-productive, from your perspective, to argue that as much as 48% of Brits were "EU fanatics" who were voting for a "single country called Europe"?
If you follow what I have said you will see I think the whole claim is rubbish. I am just using Meeks' and Topping's own logic against them to show them how idiotic their claims are.
I do not believe most Remain voters should be tarred as federalists by association just as I do not believe most Leave voters should be tarred as xenophobes by association. But that is the logic of Meeks and Topping.
In truth, it wouldn't matter if 60, 65 or 70 per cent wanted Britain back in unless it started affecting voting intention. Only then might parties think about reacting to it. But that's not going to happen in the next 12 months (or, to deal with the realistic deadline, next three months).
I think that's accurate. There's majority support for reinstating the death penalty, but it doesn't affect voting intentions.
Really, it needs a combination of two factors. People to change their minds, and it to be an important enough factor to start influencing votes. (Plus it would need a viable repository for pro-EU votes.)
That's a long list of requirements. Is it possible? Sure, of course. Is it likely? No.
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
In truth, it wouldn't matter if 60, 65 or 70 per cent wanted Britain back in unless it started affecting voting intention. Only then might parties think about reacting to it. But that's not going to happen in the next 12 months (or, to deal with the realistic deadline, next three months).
I think that's accurate. There's majority support for reinstating the death penalty, but it doesn't affect voting intentions.
Really, it needs a combination of two factors. People to change their minds, and it to be an important enough factor to start influencing votes. (Plus it would need a viable repository for pro-EU votes.)
That's a long list of requirements. Is it possible? Sure, of course. Is it likely? No.
The lack of death penalty doesn't impact on the financial wellbeing of the average voter though.
Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
It smells of a whitewash to me. This is not only a problem for the team, it is a cultural problem (in the same way the England team have a cultural problem of being drunken f*ckwits).
The team's; ethos should have been such that this was unthinkable. It is as much a failing of the management as it is of the team.
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
What is Lembit doing these days?
Living off the income of a number of rental houses, boozing and whoring (allegedly).
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
What is Lembit doing these days?
Living off the income of a number of rental houses, boozing and whoring (allegedly).
Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
Smith had said the leadership group discussed it. We're to believe that consists only of him and Warner?
It is also surprising that Group didn't include the wicketkeeper, who would understand the bowling conditions best and is a very experienced player.
Doesn't suggest the healthiest of team environments.
I make no accusations, but when people are prepared to go to these lengths to win matches, is there any reason to suppose they're likely to tell the truth about it afterwards? Are they under oath, or something?
Hard to see Smith and Warner playing for Australia again after that press conference.
Certainly they're not going to just get a slap on the wrist. They can't if CA wishes to retain its own credibility.
The question is whether Smith's previously clean record will mitigate things for him.
For Warner, who has a history of indiscipline, bullying, actual violence and had to be pulled away from a South African player only a fortnight ago, it doesn't seem likely he can survive.
Surely, if he came back as an MP at a by-election, then he would by definition have won.
Oops - I didn't see "MP" in the tweet, I thought it just said "as a Lib Dem"
For the record, there is one circumstance where Mr Milliband could be elected a LibDem MP in a by-election: it would have to be a very Pro-Remain seat, where the LibDems had little or no presence.
Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
Smith had said the leadership group discussed it. We're to believe that consists only of him and Warner?
It is also surprising that Group didn't include the wicketkeeper, who would understand the bowling conditions best and is a very experienced player.
Doesn't suggest the healthiest of team environments.
I make no accusations, but when people are prepared to go to these lengths to win matches, is there any reason to suppose they're likely to tell the truth about it afterwards? Are they under oath, or something?
When caught people confess to many things, including murder. But given the leadership group comments from before, if this is the extent of that group then Smith was trying to deflect from his own culpability by implying several more were involved, or the three lied now to save a few others.
Either way, Smith doesn't come out of it well. So silly, when he's the best batsman in the world.
Comments
But it certainly isn't in May's interests to reopen a debate that would split her party down the middle when it's currently more-or-less united (and that applies to any future Tory leader), and where she'd have to advocate *something*. It's not in Corbyn's interest to advocate a vote that would divide him from the great majority of his MPs and activists.
In truth, it wouldn't matter if 60, 65 or 70 per cent wanted Britain back in unless it started affecting voting intention. Only then might parties think about reacting to it. But that's not going to happen in the next 12 months (or, to deal with the realistic deadline, next three months).
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Mr Farage's following in the country was so ardent, so committed to him personally that very few people could be persuaded to vote for him or his party in GE after GE.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
I can see though that it might make it easier for you to deal with it by throwing shit at people's motives so you can bask in the glow that people you agree with are good and those you disagree with are evil. I imagine that people with lower intellects might use such a technique too rather than examining the myriad of reasons that went into people's decisions.....
Boris and Corbyn are interesting. Whether you like them or not there is something about them. What else was interesting about DMiliband?
https://twitter.com/DArcyTiP/status/978599720976371712
Once Uncle Vince goes in a year, then I would hope for a new leader with a bit of oomph. Lamb ideally, but there are others. Personally I would have kept Farron.
Personally I think it is rubbish in both instances but that is at least consistent. Unlike your floundering.
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who has made so little real impact on politics, who is nonetheless still talked about by political commentators so much. When the books of political history are written, his only mention is going to be that he was Ed Miliband's brother (and poor Ed himself is probably not going to be getting much space in those history books).
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.
LDs have had a major expansion, mostly from core Remainers, so need to get past Brexit before developing a more cohesive set of policies.
Edit: Not that he's old, of course, but he's been around so long that it looks as though he ought to be, and he could be seen as the transitional figure.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/momentum-plots-new-power-grab-secret-tapes-reveal-activists-conspiring-against-moderate-labour-chief-a3800041.html
Maybe they can recruit a few turnips?
“If only if it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing insidious deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
I do not believe Leavers are all intrinsically evil. I do believe that in their willingness to pursue a mad obsession dear to their heart, no matter what banner they fell in behind, they have delivered a grievous blow to the national fabric. By ignoring what they were voting for in reality, and continuing to do so, they - and you - are perpetuating a bitter division that will drag Britain down for the indefinite future.
Whatever campaign he did or didn’t front. The EU Referendum was him. He was far from a peripheral figure. Le Referendum c’etait lui.
We simply don’t know how many of these non-voters would turn up next time.
Live on Sky Sports News
Face it federalist. The logic is impeccable. After all it is your own.
To be clear, I don't think there will be a significant split-off. I think by far the most likely outcome is that many sane Labour MPs will drift off and do other things, and the rest will just glower in the corner.
However, I don't think it likely at all. The people have made their decision, and the polls all show very little support indeed for reversing the decision.
As has always been the case, the biggest risk to this is a serious recession. People might say that their decision is about sovereignty, but paying the mortgage usually trumps sovereignty on a day-to-day basis. (For the record, a recession is far more likely to be caused by the UK's structural imbalances. But it will be blames on Brexit.)
Don't ever try to claim again that you were anything other than an EU fanatic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43558876
When I read one post yesterday I literally burst out laughing thinking it must be a spoof - it would have fitted perfectly in Private Eye.
I thought it was interesting comment given how long D'Arcy has been doing parliament stuff.
The only calls for a Centre Party re-alignment seem to come from journalists and politicians out-of-favour in their current Party and partisan Tories hoping for a wave of Labour defections.
Not from ordinary voters (in any great number anyway).
Led by Farron, Cable, D Miliband or AN Other would not change this.
I find such posts heartening: it’s that sense of fair play, moderation and perspective that gives me such huge confidence in Britain’s future.
We truly live in a fantastic country, filled with fair-minded and considerate people.
Have been seeing rumours they are about to get Pietersen style on David Warner's arse, which would be hilarious and many years overdue if true....
I think there's a live stream available here
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/cricket-australia-press-conference-live-12260898
Is Theresa going on an Easter walking holiday this year?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/03/27/cricket-australia-ceo-addresses-ball-tampering-scandal-steve/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw
I do not believe most Remain voters should be tarred as federalists by association just as I do not believe most Leave voters should be tarred as xenophobes by association. But that is the logic of Meeks and Topping.
http://democracy.anglesey.gov.uk/mgElectionResults.aspx?ID=14&RPID=222867&LLL=0
Smith, Warner, and Bancroft.
No one else knew, including Darren Lehman.
Lehman has not resigned and will serve the rest of his contract.
Really, it needs a combination of two factors. People to change their minds, and it to be an important enough factor to start influencing votes. (Plus it would need a viable repository for pro-EU votes.)
That's a long list of requirements. Is it possible? Sure, of course. Is it likely? No.
Chortle ..
Doesn't suggest the healthiest of team environments.
It should be noted that these are not the boundaries that will be polled on May 3rd, but the existing boundaries (and understandably so).
My own ward was Bourn, but is now Cambourne. It is shown as Bourn.
The team's; ethos should have been such that this was unthinkable. It is as much a failing of the management as it is of the team.
If it isn't cheating then surely it isn't important?
Seems to be quite sympathetic to Smith, which may bode ill for Warner.
The question is whether Smith's previously clean record will mitigate things for him.
For Warner, who has a history of indiscipline, bullying, actual violence and had to be pulled away from a South African player only a fortnight ago, it doesn't seem likely he can survive.
And nor should he. Loathsome character.
There aren't many seats like that.
Either way, Smith doesn't come out of it well. So silly, when he's the best batsman in the world.