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Er, no.Richard_Tyndall said:
Those who voted for a Remain campaign that included people who believed we should join a Federalist EU and adopt the Euro implicitly agreed with the federalist, pro Euro agenda.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
That at least is the logical conclusion of your claims.0 -
Gin, unfortunately not Ha Ha though!, evening by the wayGIN1138 said:
Funny old world isn't it?Big_G_NorthWales said:Whoever would have thought that Theresa May in two short weeks would become the de facto leader of the West facing down Putin
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In nearly two years since EURef1, there's been virtually no movement. It seems highly unlikely that that there would suddenly be any decisive movement in either direction before March 2019 and probably before December 2020 - only the experience of events is likely to shift opinion and at the moment, events are simply reinforcing opinion on both sides.AlastairMeeks said:
If the public decisively turn against Brexit it will soon become in someone's interest to hold a referendum.david_herdson said:
The public have very little to do with it. As in 1975 and 2016, it'll be tactical party considerations that matter most. And the considerations at the moment are that neither the Tory nor Labour leaderships have the slightest interest in reopening a question that's been answered, and every incentive not to do so. So it won't be.AlastairMeeks said:
If the public believe in increasing numbers that Brexit was a mistake there will be a next time. Right now Leavers are doing their best to ensure that.CarlottaVance said:
The optimism is in this charming delusion that there will be a 'next time'AlastairMeeks said:
You seem to think your own side’s antics are going to be more wholesome than last time. That seems optimistic.
But it certainly isn't in May's interests to reopen a debate that would split her party down the middle when it's currently more-or-less united (and that applies to any future Tory leader), and where she'd have to advocate *something*. It's not in Corbyn's interest to advocate a vote that would divide him from the great majority of his MPs and activists.
In truth, it wouldn't matter if 60, 65 or 70 per cent wanted Britain back in unless it started affecting voting intention. Only then might parties think about reacting to it. But that's not going to happen in the next 12 months (or, to deal with the realistic deadline, next three months).0 -
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.0 -
What are you talking about Morris?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Topping, ironic to see you making comments of xenophobia after your comments on the Jews the other day.
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+1Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either. 0 -
He would be reminded of his history as banana man?rottenborough said:0 -
.....he'd lose?rottenborough said:0 -
Indeed, great credit to Mr Farage for articulating the thoughts & feelings of those whom the establishment preferred to ignore.TOPPING said:
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Mr Farage's following in the country was so ardent, so committed to him personally that very few people could be persuaded to vote for him or his party in GE after GE.-1 -
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.TOPPING said:
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.0 -
That's the odd thing. One slightly amusing photograph of a politician with a banana dominated his career (though his own cowardice in not standing against Brown is more important). Yet Boris has an extremely colourful past and gets a free pass, as does Corbyn's odious views and history.philiph said:
He would be reminded of his history as banana man?rottenborough said:0 -
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David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.rottenborough said:
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.0 -
Hmmm, I didn't vote "for a xenophobic campaign" - I voted for a de-coupling of the U.K. From the EU and was prepared that the extent of the de-coupling would have to be determined, however for me it was important that we voted to leave. A soft Brexit would in time have probably become harder as the UK and EU moved in different directions and a hard Brexit worst being brutal at first would also possibly have benefits. The campaign had absolutely no bearing on my decision.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.harryfaversham said:
I am pro-Brexit......
I do hope you will one day see that us brexiters are not evil xenophobes and stupid racists but, in the same way that those on the left and right simply often have equal good intentions but different paths to a solution, just truly believe from our own experience and calculations that there is a different "way".
I can see though that it might make it easier for you to deal with it by throwing shit at people's motives so you can bask in the glow that people you agree with are good and those you disagree with are evil. I imagine that people with lower intellects might use such a technique too rather than examining the myriad of reasons that went into people's decisions.....0 -
Because David Miliband was such a beige/vanilla meaningless politician who didn't seem to stand for anything apart from being "centre" and "not Brown". So the banana stood out as the most interesting thing about him.JosiasJessop said:
That's the odd thing. One slightly amusing photograph of a politician with a banana dominated his career (though his own cowardice in not standing against Brown is more important). Yet Boris has an extremely colourful past and gets a free pass, as does Corbyn's odious views and history.philiph said:
He would be reminded of his history as banana man?rottenborough said:
Boris and Corbyn are interesting. Whether you like them or not there is something about them. What else was interesting about DMiliband?0 -
D'Arcy has been covering parliament for yonks:
https://twitter.com/DArcyTiP/status/9785997209763717120 -
Having installed one of the last generation and watching him flounder I doubt libdems would be keen on another failed retread.ydoethur said:
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.rottenborough said:
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.0 -
I wouldn't toch DM, and the prospect of some drop-in being selected by the LDs for a winnable seat in one of our increasingly rare by elections approaches zero. The only major Ex Labour figures who would be welcome would be sitting MPs or similar.ydoethur said:
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.rottenborough said:
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
Once Uncle Vince goes in a year, then I would hope for a new leader with a bit of oomph. Lamb ideally, but there are others. Personally I would have kept Farron.
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Er yes. The logic, if it applies at all, applies both ways. You dont get to pick and choose.TOPPING said:
Er, no.Richard_Tyndall said:
Those who voted for a Remain campaign that included people who believed we should join a Federalist EU and adopt the Euro implicitly agreed with the federalist, pro Euro agenda.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
That at least is the logical conclusion of your claims.
Personally I think it is rubbish in both instances but that is at least consistent. Unlike your floundering.0 -
The habit of leader resignation the day or so after an election defeat I feel its detrimental to the party and the process of evaluation and rebuilding.Foxy said:
I wouldn't toch DM, and the prospect of some drop-in being selected by the LDs for a winnable seat in one of our increasingly rare by elections approaches zero. The only major Ex Labour figures who would be welcome would be sitting MPs or similar.ydoethur said:
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.rottenborough said:
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
Once Uncle Vince goes in a year, then I would hope for a new leader with a bit of oomph. Lamb ideally, but there are others. Personally I would have kept Farron.0 -
What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who has made so little real impact on politics, who is nonetheless still talked about by political commentators so much. When the books of political history are written, his only mention is going to be that he was Ed Miliband's brother (and poor Ed himself is probably not going to be getting much space in those history books).0 -
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.Danny565 said:What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.0 -
I agree. Indeed it is responsible for many of the poor choices that parties have made in recent years, right down to UKIP.philiph said:
The habit of leader resignation the day or so after an election defeat I feel its detrimental to the party and the process of evaluation and rebuilding.Foxy said:
I wouldn't toch DM, and the prospect of some drop-in being selected by the LDs for a winnable seat in one of our increasingly rare by elections approaches zero. The only major Ex Labour figures who would be welcome would be sitting MPs or similar.ydoethur said:
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.rottenborough said:
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.
Once Uncle Vince goes in a year, then I would hope for a new leader with a bit of oomph. Lamb ideally, but there are others. Personally I would have kept Farron.0 -
And would defecting Labour MPs harbor ambitions to lead the party? D Miliband would not automatically be an asset.Richard_Nabavi said:
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.Danny565 said:What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.0 -
I don't think any Labour Centrists are in seats that they could hold if they defected, even if they wanted to do so. I think they realise that post Corbyn the party will chhose a different style and direction, depending on results. That may well favour the soft rather than hard left.Richard_Nabavi said:
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.Danny565 said:What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.
LDs have had a major expansion, mostly from core Remainers, so need to get past Brexit before developing a more cohesive set of policies.0 -
I think he would, on the 'young cardinals/old popes' principle.philiph said:
And would defecting Labour MPs harbor ambitions to lead the party. D Miliband would not automatically be an asset.Richard_Nabavi said:
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.Danny565 said:What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.
Edit: Not that he's old, of course, but he's been around so long that it looks as though he ought to be, and he could be seen as the transitional figure.0 -
The Evening Standard reveals a Momentum plot to oust Simon Hogg, the moderate Labour group leader on Wandsworth Council, after the local elections in May
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/momentum-plots-new-power-grab-secret-tapes-reveal-activists-conspiring-against-moderate-labour-chief-a3800041.html0 -
Banana man. Orange bookers. We'll have our 5-a-day before long.philiph said:
He would be reminded of his history as banana man?rottenborough said:
Maybe they can recruit a few turnips?0 -
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If no-one else is going to bite, I will. What's so extraordinary about it, please?rottenborough said:D'Arcy has been covering parliament for yonks:
https://twitter.com/DArcyTiP/status/9785997209763717120 -
Subject to the composition of the membership, nec, plp and conference decisions. There is no certainty the next leader won't be Mcdonald or similarFoxy said:
I don't think any Labour Centrists are in seats that they could hold if they defected, even if they wanted to do so. I think they realise that post Corbyn the party will chhose a different style and direction, depending on results. That may well favour the soft rather than hard left.Richard_Nabavi said:
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.Danny565 said:What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.
LDs have had a major expansion, mostly from core Remainers, so need to get past Brexit before developing a more cohesive set of policies.0 -
Solzhenitsyn put it well:harryfaversham said:
Hmmm, I didn't vote "for a xenophobic campaign" - I voted for a de-coupling of the U.K. From the EU and was prepared that the extent of the de-coupling would have to be determined, however for me it was important that we voted to leave. A soft Brexit would in time have probably become harder as the UK and EU moved in different directions and a hard Brexit worst being brutal at first would also possibly have benefits. The campaign had absolutely no bearing on my decision.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.harryfaversham said:
I am pro-Brexit......
I do hope you will one day see that us brexiters are not evil xenophobes and stupid racists but, in the same way that those on the left and right simply often have equal good intentions but different paths to a solution, just truly believe from our own experience and calculations that there is a different "way".
I can see though that it might make it easier for you to deal with it by throwing shit at people's motives so you can bask in the glow that people you agree with are good and those you disagree with are evil. I imagine that people with lower intellects might use such a technique too rather than examining the myriad of reasons that went into people's decisions.....
“If only if it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing insidious deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
I do not believe Leavers are all intrinsically evil. I do believe that in their willingness to pursue a mad obsession dear to their heart, no matter what banner they fell in behind, they have delivered a grievous blow to the national fabric. By ignoring what they were voting for in reality, and continuing to do so, they - and you - are perpetuating a bitter division that will drag Britain down for the indefinite future.0 -
Don't forget to eat your Greens.SandyRentool said:
Banana man. Orange bookers. We'll have our 5-a-day before long.philiph said:
He would be reminded of his history as banana man?rottenborough said:
Maybe they can recruit a few turnips?0 -
Farage was Leave’s talisman.Richard_Tyndall said:
Er yes. The logic, if it applies at all, applies both ways. You dont get to pick and choose.TOPPING said:
Er, no.Richard_Tyndall said:
Those who voted for a Remain campaign that included people who believed we should join a Federalist EU and adopt the Euro implicitly agreed with the federalist, pro Euro agenda.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
That at least is the logical conclusion of your claims.
Personally I think it is rubbish in both instances but that is at least consistent. Unlike your floundering.
Whatever campaign he did or didn’t front. The EU Referendum was him. He was far from a peripheral figure. Le Referendum c’etait lui.0 -
I think the point is that there’s a real risk in translating opinion polls into voting intention, and Remain may be overcooked.MikeSmithson said:
So what.GIN1138 said:
Remain was further ahead (10%) than that with Populas... On 23rd June 2016!AlastairMeeks said:Meanwhile, another poll shows Remain well ahead of Leave:
https://twitter.com/ncpoliticsuk/status/978627009969565696?s=21
We simply don’t know how many of these non-voters would turn up next time.0 -
Sorry Morris I can’t be bothered to look it up (I’m on a mobile) you’ll have to tell me.Morris_Dancer said:0 -
Cheating convicts press conference at 6pm BST.
Live on Sky Sports News0 -
Clearly untrue given that the party he led only managed 12% of the vote whilst Leave got 52%.TOPPING said:
Farage was Leave’s talisman.Richard_Tyndall said:
Er yes. The logic, if it applies at all, applies both ways. You dont get to pick and choose.TOPPING said:
Er, no.Richard_Tyndall said:
Those who voted for a Remain campaign that included people who believed we should join a Federalist EU and adopt the Euro implicitly agreed with the federalist, pro Euro agenda.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
That at least is the logical conclusion of your claims.
Personally I think it is rubbish in both instances but that is at least consistent. Unlike your floundering.
Whatever campaign he did or didn’t front. The EU Referendum was him. He was far from a peripheral figure. Le Referendum c’etait lui.
Face it federalist. The logic is impeccable. After all it is your own.0 -
The trouble is that the hard left now have a firm, and ever-increasing, grip on most of the levers of power in the party. The sane wing of the party can't expect anything to turn up and save it anytime soon, even if Corbyn does retire to spend more time with his allotment and manhole-covers.Foxy said:I don't think any Labour Centrists are in seats that they could hold if they defected, even if they wanted to do so. I think they realise that post Corbyn the party will chhose a different style and direction, depending on results. That may well favour the soft rather than hard left.
To be clear, I don't think there will be a significant split-off. I think by far the most likely outcome is that many sane Labour MPs will drift off and do other things, and the rest will just glower in the corner.0 -
I would have thought that Rejoin inside the transition period would be possible: after all, we would still be subject to EU law and part of the Customs Union.Philip_Thompson said:
Because they don't need to win converts. Remain ceases to exist as an option on 29/3/2019 and realistically ceases to be an option long before then.AlastairMeeks said:The detail of the poll is noteworthy. No one really is changing their minds. The change is among those who didn’t vote in 2016, who are decisively breaking for Remain. This is the short term protection and the long term risk for Leave.
But for some reason Leavers aren’t beginning to think about how to win new converts.
After that rejoin needs to win enough converts to overtake inertia.
However, I don't think it likely at all. The people have made their decision, and the polls all show very little support indeed for reversing the decision.
As has always been the case, the biggest risk to this is a serious recession. People might say that their decision is about sovereignty, but paying the mortgage usually trumps sovereignty on a day-to-day basis. (For the record, a recession is far more likely to be caused by the UK's structural imbalances. But it will be blames on Brexit.)0 -
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.Philip_Thompson said:
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.TOPPING said:
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.0 -
In reality you were voting for a single country called Europe.AlastairMeeks said:
Solzhenitsyn put it well:harryfaversham said:
Hmmm, I didn't vote "for a xenophobic campaign" - I voted for a de-coupling of the U.K. From the EU and was prepared that the extent of the de-coupling would have to be determined, however for me it was important that we voted to leave. A soft Brexit would in time have probably become harder as the UK and EU moved in different directions and a hard Brexit worst being brutal at first would also possibly have benefits. The campaign had absolutely no bearing on my decision.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.harryfaversham said:
I am pro-Brexit......
I do hope you will one day see that us brexiters are not evil xenophobes and stupid racists but, in the same way that those on the left and right simply often have equal good intentions but different paths to a solution, just truly believe from our own experience and calculations that there is a different "way".
I can see though that it might make it easier for you to deal with it by throwing shit at people's motives so you can bask in the glow that people you agree with are good and those you disagree with are evil. I imagine that people with lower intellects might use such a technique too rather than examining the myriad of reasons that went into people's decisions.....
“If only if it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing insidious deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
I do not believe Leavers are all intrinsically evil. I do believe that in their willingness to pursue a mad obsession dear to their heart, no matter what banner they fell in behind, they have delivered a grievous blow to the national fabric. By ignoring what they were voting for in reality, and continuing to do so, they - and you - are perpetuating a bitter division that will drag Britain down for the indefinite future.
Don't ever try to claim again that you were anything other than an EU fanatic.0 -
Michael Gove was the one who changed history.Philip_Thompson said:
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.TOPPING said:
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.AnneJGP said:
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.TOPPING said:
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.0 -
This report suggests it was singularly unremarkable.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43558876AnneJGP said:
If no-one else is going to bite, I will. What's so extraordinary about it, please?rottenborough said:D'Arcy has been covering parliament for yonks:
https://twitter.com/DArcyTiP/status/9785997209763717120 -
I voted Remain and I'm afraid to say that a number of the Remain supporting posts on here over the last few days are not doing the Remain cause any good whatsoever - indeed they are so over the top and hysterical that they will have the precise opposite effect to what the writer wants.
When I read one post yesterday I literally burst out laughing thinking it must be a spoof - it would have fitted perfectly in Private Eye.0 -
Afraid I don't know. I haven't had time to plough through all the material. On the surface there are potentially major allegations over funding of Leave campaign. Plus a whole new world (for many people) of data collection by social media.AnneJGP said:
If no-one else is going to bite, I will. What's so extraordinary about it, please?rottenborough said:D'Arcy has been covering parliament for yonks:
https://twitter.com/DArcyTiP/status/978599720976371712
I thought it was interesting comment given how long D'Arcy has been doing parliament stuff.0 -
There is no Remain campaign. There is an analysis of the Leave vote.MikeL said:I voted Remain and I'm afraid to say that a number of the Remain supporting posts on here over the last few days are not doing the Remain cause any good whatsoever - indeed they are so over the top and hysterical that they will have the precise opposite effect to what the writer wants.
When I read one post yesterday I literally burst out laughing thinking it must be a spoof - it would have fitted perfectly in Private Eye.0 -
I do like that map in th header. I wonder why there aren't any results shown for Anglesey?0
-
Would that be the one likening London to Stalingrad, or somesuch?MikeL said:I voted Remain and I'm afraid to say that a number of the Remain supporting posts on here over the last few days are not doing the Remain cause any good whatsoever - indeed they are so over the top and hysterical that they will have the precise opposite effect to what the writer wants.
When I read one post yesterday I literally burst out laughing thinking it must be a spoof - it would have fitted perfectly in Private Eye.0 -
You mean "engaging in crackpot theories blaming "the Jewish run MI5", I think.JosiasJessop said:
It appears the whole sorry mess has been handled very well by the government from the beginning - the main sad issue being the infection of the police officer, which may have happened before they had much of a clue what was going on.Big_G_NorthWales said:Whoever would have thought that Theresa May in two short weeks would become the de facto leader of the West facing down Putin
I'm not their greatest fan, but May and Boris have gone up on my estimation.
Putin would have got off with no censure if Corbyn has been in charge: he'd be busy blaming our own people.0 -
This is an important point. Is there any great groundswell of demand for Centrist politics? The recent GE would suggest not. The LD's are languishing for a reason. Not because of their firm anti-Brexit position or the Coalition, but simply because their philosophy of pro-market, compassionate Internationalism is out of favour.Foxy said:
I don't think any Labour Centrists are in seats that they could hold if they defected, even if they wanted to do so. I think they realise that post Corbyn the party will chhose a different style and direction, depending on results. That may well favour the soft rather than hard left.Richard_Nabavi said:
Whilst I agree with you, that's not the whole story. If the LibDems wanted to become the nucleus of a new centre-left party without the nastiness and extremism of Corbyn, then David Miliband would be an ideal leader to attract defectors amongst Labour MPs.Danny565 said:What sort of voter is going to be attracted by David Miliband, exactly? What are the constituencies that would be attracted to him if he was a leader of a party?
I can't think of another politician in my lifetime who is so much less well-regarded by the public than they are by the commentariat.
Of course, that's a big 'if'. The LibDems probably wouldn't want to be effectively taken over, and electorally it probably wouldn't work any better than the old SDP.
LDs have had a major expansion, mostly from core Remainers, so need to get past Brexit before developing a more cohesive set of policies.
The only calls for a Centre Party re-alignment seem to come from journalists and politicians out-of-favour in their current Party and partisan Tories hoping for a wave of Labour defections.
Not from ordinary voters (in any great number anyway).
Led by Farron, Cable, D Miliband or AN Other would not change this.0 -
Isn't it rather counter-productive, from your perspective, to argue that as much as 48% of Brits were "EU fanatics" who were voting for a "single country called Europe"?Richard_Tyndall said:
In reality you were voting for a single country called Europe.AlastairMeeks said:
Solzhenitsyn put it well:harryfaversham said:
Hmmm, I didn't vote "for a xenophobic campaign" - I voted for a de-coupling of the U.K. From the EU and was prepared that the extent of the de-coupling would have to be determined, however for me it was important that we voted to leave. A soft Brexit would in time have probably become harder as the UK and EU moved in different directions and a hard Brexit worst being brutal at first would also possibly have benefits. The campaign had absolutely no bearing on my decision.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.harryfaversham said:
I am pro-Brexit......
I do hope you will one day see that us brexiters are not evil xenophobes and stupid racists but, in the same way that those on the left and right simply often have equal good intentions but different paths to a solution, just truly believe from our own experience and calculations that there is a different "way".
I can see though that it might make it easier for you to deal with it by throwing shit at people's motives so you can bask in the glow that people you agree with are good and those you disagree with are evil. I imagine that people with lower intellects might use such a technique too rather than examining the myriad of reasons that went into people's decisions.....
“If only if it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing insidious deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
I do not believe Leavers are all intrinsically evil. I do believe that in their willingness to pursue a mad obsession dear to their heart, no matter what banner they fell in behind, they have delivered a grievous blow to the national fabric. By ignoring what they were voting for in reality, and continuing to do so, they - and you - are perpetuating a bitter division that will drag Britain down for the indefinite future.
Don't ever try to claim again that you were anything other than an EU fanatic.0 -
Reflective and self-aware posters would recognise when their behaviour is starting to alienate hitherto sympathetic voices on their own side, and adjust it accordingly to avoid the outcome they most fear.OldKingCole said:
+1Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
I find such posts heartening: it’s that sense of fair play, moderation and perspective that gives me such huge confidence in Britain’s future.
We truly live in a fantastic country, filled with fair-minded and considerate people.0 -
Must be the pink hair.AnneJGP said:
If no-one else is going to bite, I will. What's so extraordinary about it, please?rottenborough said:D'Arcy has been covering parliament for yonks:
https://twitter.com/DArcyTiP/status/9785997209763717120 -
For the 60% pf us who don't have that, what are they seeing?TheScreamingEagles said:Cheating convicts press conference at 6pm BST.
Live on Sky Sports News
Have been seeing rumours they are about to get Pietersen style on David Warner's arse, which would be hilarious and many years overdue if true....0 -
Quite right. Fortunately the fanatics on both sides are in the minority.Casino_Royale said:
Reflective and self-aware posters would recognise when their behaviour is starting to alienate hitherto sympathetic voices on their own side, and adjust it accordingly to avoid the outcome they most fear.OldKingCole said:
+1Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
I find such posts heartening: it’s that sense of fair play, moderation and perspective that gives me such huge confidence in Britain’s future.
We truly live in a fantastic country, filled with fair-minded and considerate people.0 -
Was that a reference to his role or the changes to GCSEs (the ones that thanks to him and his acolytes we still have no marking criteria for)?Casino_Royale said:Michael Gove was the one who changed history.
0 -
It hasn't started yet.ydoethur said:
For the 60% pf us who don't have that, what are they seeing?TheScreamingEagles said:Cheating convicts press conference at 6pm BST.
Live on Sky Sports News
Have been seeing rumours they are about to get Pietersen style on David Warner's arse, which would be hilarious and many years overdue if true....
I think there's a live stream available here
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/cricket-australia-press-conference-live-122608980 -
Being quite interested in fashions, I was wondering whether any of the gentlemen's style experts on here can tell me why the beard is left in its (presumably) natural colour?steve_garner said:
Must be the pink hair.AnneJGP said:
If no-one else is going to bite, I will. What's so extraordinary about it, please?rottenborough said:D'Arcy has been covering parliament for yonks:
https://twitter.com/DArcyTiP/status/9785997209763717120 -
Thank you Mr Eagles, despite your views on The Last Jedi you are a gentleman.TheScreamingEagles said:
It hasn't started yes.ydoethur said:
For the 60% pf us who don't have that, what are they seeing?TheScreamingEagles said:Cheating convicts press conference at 6pm BST.
Live on Sky Sports News
Have been seeing rumours they are about to get Pietersen style on David Warner's arse, which would be hilarious and many years overdue if true....
I think there's a live stream available here
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/cricket-australia-press-conference-live-122608980 -
I don’t agree. Britain is now a country where pandering to xenophobia works. It is, for the foreseeable future, in decline.Casino_Royale said:
Reflective and self-aware posters would recognise when their behaviour is starting to alienate hitherto sympathetic voices on their own side, and adjust it accordingly to avoid the outcome they most fear.OldKingCole said:
+1Torby_Fennel said:
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now.AlastairMeeks said:
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
I find such posts heartening: it’s that sense of fair play, moderation and perspective that gives me such huge confidence in Britain’s future.
We truly live in a fantastic country, filled with fair-minded and considerate people.0 -
Off-topic
Is Theresa going on an Easter walking holiday this year?0 -
Telegraph have a video stream here as wellydoethur said:
Thank you Mr Eagles, despite your views on The Last Jedi you are a gentleman.TheScreamingEagles said:
It hasn't started yes.ydoethur said:
For the 60% pf us who don't have that, what are they seeing?TheScreamingEagles said:Cheating convicts press conference at 6pm BST.
Live on Sky Sports News
Have been seeing rumours they are about to get Pietersen style on David Warner's arse, which would be hilarious and many years overdue if true....
I think there's a live stream available here
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/cricket-australia-press-conference-live-12260898
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/03/27/cricket-australia-ceo-addresses-ball-tampering-scandal-steve/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw0 -
Hope notDanny565 said:Off-topic
Is Theresa going on an Easter walking holiday this year?0 -
It shows why a second referendum would probably be a disaster for Remain.MikeL said:I voted Remain and I'm afraid to say that a number of the Remain supporting posts on here over the last few days are not doing the Remain cause any good whatsoever - indeed they are so over the top and hysterical that they will have the precise opposite effect to what the writer wants.
When I read one post yesterday I literally burst out laughing thinking it must be a spoof - it would have fitted perfectly in Private Eye.0 -
If you follow what I have said you will see I think the whole claim is rubbish. I am just using Meeks' and Topping's own logic against them to show them how idiotic their claims are.Danny565 said:
Isn't it rather counter-productive, from your perspective, to argue that as much as 48% of Brits were "EU fanatics" who were voting for a "single country called Europe"?
I do not believe most Remain voters should be tarred as federalists by association just as I do not believe most Leave voters should be tarred as xenophobes by association. But that is the logic of Meeks and Topping.0 -
Press conference has just started0
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I don't know. Their website is showing results by party for Local Elections 4 May 2017:ydoethur said:
Do they actually have a local authority at this moment or is it still suspended while they try to disentangle the mess left behind?AnneJGP said:I do like that map in th header. I wonder why there aren't any results shown for Anglesey?
http://democracy.anglesey.gov.uk/mgElectionResults.aspx?ID=14&RPID=222867&LLL=00 -
Knowledge of ball tampering limited to 3 players.
Smith, Warner, and Bancroft.
No one else knew, including Darren Lehman.
Lehman has not resigned and will serve the rest of his contract.0 -
Warner, Smith, and Bancroft all sent home.0
-
Significant sanctions will be announced in 24 hours or so.0
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Tim Paine captain seems a good move. Stunning turnaround for his career, but a good move.0
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I think that's accurate. There's majority support for reinstating the death penalty, but it doesn't affect voting intentions.david_herdson said:In truth, it wouldn't matter if 60, 65 or 70 per cent wanted Britain back in unless it started affecting voting intention. Only then might parties think about reacting to it. But that's not going to happen in the next 12 months (or, to deal with the realistic deadline, next three months).
Really, it needs a combination of two factors. People to change their minds, and it to be an important enough factor to start influencing votes. (Plus it would need a viable repository for pro-EU votes.)
That's a long list of requirements. Is it possible? Sure, of course. Is it likely? No.0 -
James Sutherland looks an absolutely broken man. I wonder if he will be resigning soon.0
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I thought Mr Topping had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote what he did. (Or, at least, I hoped he did.)Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Topping, ironic to see you making comments of xenophobia after your comments on the Jews the other day.
0 -
Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?0
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Surely, if he came back as an MP at a by-election, then he would by definition have won.Danny565 said:
.....he'd lose?rottenborough said:0 -
Seems rather surprising. But then, did du Plessis' bowlers know about his mints?TheScreamingEagles said:Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
0 -
Smith had said the leadership group discussed it. We're to believe that consists only of him and Warner?TheScreamingEagles said:Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
0 -
So the "leadership group" was only Smith and Warner ....TheScreamingEagles said:Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
Chortle ..
0 -
What is Lembit doing these days?ydoethur said:
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.rottenborough said:
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.0 -
It is also surprising that Group didn't include the wicketkeeper, who would understand the bowling conditions best and is a very experienced player.kle4 said:
Smith had said the leadership group discussed it. We're to believe that consists only of him and Warner?TheScreamingEagles said:Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
Doesn't suggest the healthiest of team environments.0 -
On-topic:
It should be noted that these are not the boundaries that will be polled on May 3rd, but the existing boundaries (and understandably so).
My own ward was Bourn, but is now Cambourne. It is shown as Bourn.0 -
The lack of death penalty doesn't impact on the financial wellbeing of the average voter though.rcs1000 said:
I think that's accurate. There's majority support for reinstating the death penalty, but it doesn't affect voting intentions.david_herdson said:In truth, it wouldn't matter if 60, 65 or 70 per cent wanted Britain back in unless it started affecting voting intention. Only then might parties think about reacting to it. But that's not going to happen in the next 12 months (or, to deal with the realistic deadline, next three months).
Really, it needs a combination of two factors. People to change their minds, and it to be an important enough factor to start influencing votes. (Plus it would need a viable repository for pro-EU votes.)
That's a long list of requirements. Is it possible? Sure, of course. Is it likely? No.0 -
Oops - I didn't see "MP" in the tweet, I thought it just said "as a Lib Dem"rcs1000 said:
Surely, if he came back as an MP at a by-election, then he would by definition have won.Danny565 said:
.....he'd lose?rottenborough said: 0 -
The other bowlers were apparently all ready to lynch Warner. The feeling is he trying to incriminate everyone to try and reduce his own guilt.kle4 said:
Smith had said the leadership group discussed it. We're to believe that consists only of him and Warner?TheScreamingEagles said:Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
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It smells of a whitewash to me. This is not only a problem for the team, it is a cultural problem (in the same way the England team have a cultural problem of being drunken f*ckwits).TheScreamingEagles said:Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
The team's; ethos should have been such that this was unthinkable. It is as much a failing of the management as it is of the team.0 -
Living off the income of a number of rental houses, boozing and whoring (allegedly).rcs1000 said:
What is Lembit doing these days?ydoethur said:
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.rottenborough said:
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.0 -
Hard to see Smith and Warner playing for Australia again after that press conference.0
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It is the bowlers who decide which side should be the shiny side and which side should be the rough side.ydoethur said:
Seems rather surprising. But then, did du Plessis' bowlers know about his mints?TheScreamingEagles said:Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
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I've known people life worse lives.ydoethur said:
Living off the income of a number of rental houses, boozing and whoring (allegedly).rcs1000 said:
What is Lembit doing these days?ydoethur said:
David Miliband is a good administrator. But there is a reason he was a poor Foreign Secretary, unable to displace Brown and lost to his brother. He is simply not a leader. He doesn't have the imagination, drive, or clarity of thought needed. Moreover, he is a pretty uninspiring speaker.rottenborough said:
Mandelson is not a man I like, but there is no doubting his shrewdness. He believed 'David doesn't have the lead in his pencil' and given Mandelson knew (unusually for a senior politician) that was also true of himself, I think his judgement demands serious consideration.
The Liberal Democrats need somebody with flair, vigour, charisma, popularity, not somebody dealing with dull administrative processes. Sounds funny and even counter-intuitive, but what they really need is somebody like Boris Johnson - somebody who may be useless and incompetent but is always news one way or another.0 -
I believe that as much as I believe that Alonso knew nothing of crashgate.TheScreamingEagles said:Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
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I make no accusations, but when people are prepared to go to these lengths to win matches, is there any reason to suppose they're likely to tell the truth about it afterwards? Are they under oath, or something?ydoethur said:
It is also surprising that Group didn't include the wicketkeeper, who would understand the bowling conditions best and is a very experienced player.kle4 said:
Smith had said the leadership group discussed it. We're to believe that consists only of him and Warner?TheScreamingEagles said:Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
Doesn't suggest the healthiest of team environments.0 -
Why is Sutherland so reluctant to call it 'cheating?'
If it isn't cheating then surely it isn't important?
Seems to be quite sympathetic to Smith, which may bode ill for Warner.0 -
Certainly they're not going to just get a slap on the wrist. They can't if CA wishes to retain its own credibility.steve_garner said:Hard to see Smith and Warner playing for Australia again after that press conference.
The question is whether Smith's previously clean record will mitigate things for him.
For Warner, who has a history of indiscipline, bullying, actual violence and had to be pulled away from a South African player only a fortnight ago, it doesn't seem likely he can survive.
And nor should he. Loathsome character.0 -
For the record, there is one circumstance where Mr Milliband could be elected a LibDem MP in a by-election: it would have to be a very Pro-Remain seat, where the LibDems had little or no presence.Danny565 said:
Oops - I didn't see "MP" in the tweet, I thought it just said "as a Lib Dem"rcs1000 said:
Surely, if he came back as an MP at a by-election, then he would by definition have won.Danny565 said:
.....he'd lose?rottenborough said:
There aren't many seats like that.0 -
When caught people confess to many things, including murder. But given the leadership group comments from before, if this is the extent of that group then Smith was trying to deflect from his own culpability by implying several more were involved, or the three lied now to save a few others.AnneJGP said:
I make no accusations, but when people are prepared to go to these lengths to win matches, is there any reason to suppose they're likely to tell the truth about it afterwards? Are they under oath, or something?ydoethur said:
It is also surprising that Group didn't include the wicketkeeper, who would understand the bowling conditions best and is a very experienced player.kle4 said:
Smith had said the leadership group discussed it. We're to believe that consists only of him and Warner?TheScreamingEagles said:Are we really believing the bowlers had no knowledge of the ball tampering?
Doesn't suggest the healthiest of team environments.
Either way, Smith doesn't come out of it well. So silly, when he's the best batsman in the world.0
This discussion has been closed.