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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Brexit-backing Sun & Mail seen as having the most negative imp

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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited December 2017
    Nick Timothy talks sense.

    Smart chap. An LVT is probably a better idea than CGT, though.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,286
    Introducing CGT on main residences would surely create an absolutely massive incentive against moving house.
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    MaxPB said:

    And yet the guardian are closest to bankruptcy. Virtue signalling leftists don't like to pay for stuff, clearly.

    I think perhaps this poll indicates that it isn’t only virtual signalling leftists who may have a positive view of The Guardian.
    I have a positive view of the Guardian because its free and in full on the internet.

    And almost all of my reading of it is in its business, sport, culture and lifestyle sections.
    I like to read the lifestyle and sports sections too, though I do read their politics section as well.
    I get enough politics at PB :wink:
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    No polling data on PB's influence on society???

    :lol:
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,618

    No polling data on PB's influence on society???

    :lol:

    There aren't asterisks small enough... :)
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited December 2017
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/18/nigel-farage-party-staffer-russian-embassy-smear-campaign-kremlin-critic

    In case this hasn't been posted at some point today.

    That story is just an indicator. Keep watching your back Nigel, you pathetic little shill.
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    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    viewcode said:

    No polling data on PB's influence on society???

    :lol:

    There aren't asterisks small enough... :)
    How did Asterix get in there?
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    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    nor Asterixs
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    SimonSimon Posts: 2
    Remain -v- Brexit perhaps, or maybe just the old broadsheet -v- tabloid divide?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Simon said:

    Remain -v- Brexit perhaps, or maybe just the old broadsheet -v- tabloid divide?

    The latter. I think the Mirror was for Remain. Old fashioned English snobbishness.

    And welcome :)
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    OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    viewcode said:

    No polling data on PB's influence on society???

    :lol:

    There aren't asterisks small enough... :)
    How did Asterix get in there?
    The Gaul of the man.....
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Though the Mirror is seen as the third most negative paper and backed Remain and the Telegraph which backed Leave has a clear net positive rating, so not quite as clear cut.
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    That is excellent. Though I must admit I am surprised that Denmark and the Netherlands are not the same.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited December 2017
    was great watching Mark Kermode's TV movie of the week selection made on R5 on friday .. it was on last night - "it's Christmas, so clearly my movie of the week is Die Hard"
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    Here's some genuinely quality journalism from The Guardian on (believe it or not) Roy Moore:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/03/why-did-roy-moore-escape-to-australia-clues-remain-in-the-outback-wilderness
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    was great watching Mark Kermode's TV movie of the week selection made on R5 on friday .. it was on last night - "it's Christmas, so clearly my movie of the week is Die Hard"

    Top man Mr Kermode. Clearly knows his Christmas classics.
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    was great watching Mark Kermode's TV movie of the week selection made on R5 on friday .. it was on last night - "it's Christmas, so clearly my movie of the week is Die Hard"

    Just watched Dunkirk on 4K Blu-Ray :)
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    edited December 2017
    TGOHF said:
    If he keeps saying it, eventually he may be right. He may well win the next election, though this is by no means assured, and if the government collapses under its own divisions in the next year or so that becomes much more likely. If those divisions do not cause a fall of government, his prediction could be very far off though.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    MikeL said:

    Introducing CGT on main residences would surely create an absolutely massive incentive against moving house.

    We're supposed to encourage the efficient allocation of scarce capital. Discouraging people from selling homes that are now too big for them seems a dumb way to achieve that.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited December 2017
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/vote-labour-twice-general-election-electoral-fraud-21-year-old-man-mohammad-zain-qureshi-wlatham-a8116671.html?amp


    A man has pleaded guilty to breaking electoral law by voting for Labour twice in the general election.

    Mohammad Zain Qureshi, 21, voted twice in the same constituency of Chingford and Woodford Green, Waltham Forest, during the election in June.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    Just my quick thoughts on the papers:

    1. The Guardian, despite its left wing editorials, produces some seriously high quality reportage. (See the exceedingly well researched Roy Moore piece, which is the complete opposite of a hatchet job.)

    2. The Telegraph used to be good. Not any more. It's become utter rubbish, with journalists and opinion writers competing to be ever more sensationalist. It feels like a newspaper where the key metric is "shares".

    3. The Daily Mail is not a newspaper. It's OK crossed with Hello and with the sidebar of shame. You feel dirty when you click on the links. But you still do it.

    4. The Sun is actually a pretty good newspaper and doesn't deserve the approbation.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    rcs1000 said:

    Just my quick thoughts on the papers:

    1. The Guardian, despite its left wing editorials, produces some seriously high quality reportage. (See the exceedingly well researched Roy Moore piece, which is the complete opposite of a hatchet job.)

    2. The Telegraph used to be good. Not any more. It's become utter rubbish, with journalists and opinion writers competing to be ever more sensationalist. It feels like a newspaper where the key metric is "shares".

    3. The Daily Mail is not a newspaper. It's OK crossed with Hello and with the sidebar of shame. You feel dirty when you click on the links. But you still do it.

    4. The Sun is actually a pretty good newspaper and doesn't deserve the approbation.

    Yup. Bang on. Read the Sun once a week or so in my local chippy. Some serious concepts are very well explained in decent English. It's no wonder that it is so popular.
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    rcs1000 said:

    We're supposed to encourage the efficient allocation of scarce capital. Discouraging people from selling homes that are now too big for them seems a dumb way to achieve that.

    There's a whole stack of academic theory/evidence about tax efficiency and equity but sadly whether something can be dressed up in an electorally favourable or unfavourable way seems to be the main criterion.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,286
    edited December 2017
    How are social liberal and social conservative defined?

    I like to think I follow politics quite closely but I'm still puzzled by these phrases and I suspect I'm not the only one.

    Suppose someone supports current abortion rights and supports gay marriage but wants some reasonable level of control of immigration? Where would such a person fit within the definitions?

    And such a person wouldn't be unusual - they would be in the majority on all 3 issues.
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    rcs1000 said:

    Just my quick thoughts on the papers:

    1. The Guardian, despite its left wing editorials, produces some seriously high quality reportage. (See the exceedingly well researched Roy Moore piece, which is the complete opposite of a hatchet job.)

    2. The Telegraph used to be good. Not any more. It's become utter rubbish, with journalists and opinion writers competing to be ever more sensationalist. It feels like a newspaper where the key metric is "shares".

    3. The Daily Mail is not a newspaper. It's OK crossed with Hello and with the sidebar of shame. You feel dirty when you click on the links. But you still do it.

    4. The Sun is actually a pretty good newspaper and doesn't deserve the approbation.

    The Sun's readership is also pretty non-partisan, which to me is really valuable in these divisive times. The way readers of The Sun and The Times voted came closest of all the papers to being representative of the spread in the last couple of elections, if I recall correctly. I think it's unhealthy to have left-wing papers with left-wing readers and right-wing papers with right-wing readers.

    As for the Mail - might be worth distinguishing between its online and paper incarnations, which are not the same beast.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    And yet the guardian are closest to bankruptcy. Virtue signalling leftists don't like to pay for stuff, clearly.

    I think perhaps this poll indicates that it isn’t only virtual signalling leftists who may have a positive view of The Guardian.
    Tbh, I have a net positive view of the Guardian. They do quality stuff. I wouldn't pay for it though, I do pay a hundred quid a year for The Times.
    More fool you then.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919

    rcs1000 said:

    Just my quick thoughts on the papers:

    1. The Guardian, despite its left wing editorials, produces some seriously high quality reportage. (See the exceedingly well researched Roy Moore piece, which is the complete opposite of a hatchet job.)

    2. The Telegraph used to be good. Not any more. It's become utter rubbish, with journalists and opinion writers competing to be ever more sensationalist. It feels like a newspaper where the key metric is "shares".

    3. The Daily Mail is not a newspaper. It's OK crossed with Hello and with the sidebar of shame. You feel dirty when you click on the links. But you still do it.

    4. The Sun is actually a pretty good newspaper and doesn't deserve the approbation.

    The Sun's readership is also pretty non-partisan, which to me is really valuable in these divisive times. The way readers of The Sun and The Times voted came closest of all the papers to being representative of the spread in the last couple of elections, if I recall correctly. I think it's unhealthy to have left-wing papers with left-wing readers and right-wing papers with right-wing readers.

    As for the Mail - might be worth distinguishing between its online and paper incarnations, which are not the same beast.
    I only read online, being based in Los Angeles these days.

    Here Mail Online is well read, but only for its celebrity gossip.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940

    That is excellent. Though I must admit I am surprised that Denmark and the Netherlands are not the same.
    rcs1000 said:

    Just my quick thoughts on the papers:

    1. The Guardian, despite its left wing editorials, produces some seriously high quality reportage. (See the exceedingly well researched Roy Moore piece, which is the complete opposite of a hatchet job.)

    2. The Telegraph used to be good. Not any more. It's become utter rubbish, with journalists and opinion writers competing to be ever more sensationalist. It feels like a newspaper where the key metric is "shares".

    3. The Daily Mail is not a newspaper. It's OK crossed with Hello and with the sidebar of shame. You feel dirty when you click on the links. But you still do it.

    4. The Sun is actually a pretty good newspaper and doesn't deserve the approbation.

    Agree.
    But re 4: the Sun has a serious problem with veracity. Not always. And not necessarilly institutionally. Bu when caught it will instinctively double down on the bollocks it already printed. Doesn't know when to bow out.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    MikeL said:

    How are social liberal and social conservative defined?

    I like to think I follow politics quite closely but I'm still puzzled by these phrases and I suspect I'm not the only one.

    Suppose someone supports current abortion rights and supports gay marriage but wants some reasonable level of control of immigration? Where would such a person fit within the definitions?

    And such a person wouldn't be unusual - they would be in the majority on all 3 issues.

    I have often wondered likewise.
    I have also never been able to get a satisfactory definition of "Culture War." It would help me to know which particular ditch I should die in.
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited December 2017
    The anti-gay marriage brigade aren't giving up;

    "Same-sex marriage is not irreversible. Determined public pressure can influence politicians to restore the traditional definition of marriage.

    On behalf of our supporters, we are committed to continuing to make same-sex marriage an issue at election time in the United Kingdom in the hope of similar change here."

    https://www.c4m.org.uk/bermuda-repeals-sex-marriage/

    They have lots of friends in Theresa May's conservative party. Sadly some in the Labour party, too.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    edited December 2017
    The test for whether you are a social conservative or liberal is a simple one.

    When watching Peter Hitchens on YouTube or TV, are you more likely to nod sagely or throw up?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Pong said:

    The anti-gay marriage brigade aren't giving up;

    "Same-sex marriage is not irreversible. Determined public pressure can influence politicians to restore the traditional definition of marriage.

    On behalf of our supporters, we are committed to continuing to make same-sex marriage an issue at election time in the United Kingdom in the hope of similar change here."

    https://www.c4m.org.uk/bermuda-repeals-sex-marriage/

    They have lots of friends in Theresa May's conservative party. Sadly some in the Labour party, too.

    That'd be the same Tory party that legalised gay marriage, when May was Home Secretary?
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    RobD said:

    Pong said:

    The anti-gay marriage brigade aren't giving up;

    "Same-sex marriage is not irreversible. Determined public pressure can influence politicians to restore the traditional definition of marriage.

    On behalf of our supporters, we are committed to continuing to make same-sex marriage an issue at election time in the United Kingdom in the hope of similar change here."

    https://www.c4m.org.uk/bermuda-repeals-sex-marriage/

    They have lots of friends in Theresa May's conservative party. Sadly some in the Labour party, too.

    That'd be the same Tory party that legalised gay marriage, when May was Home Secretary?
    Yup. Times have changed.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    TGOHF said:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/vote-labour-twice-general-election-electoral-fraud-21-year-old-man-mohammad-zain-qureshi-wlatham-a8116671.html?amp


    A man has pleaded guilty to breaking electoral law by voting for Labour twice in the general election.

    Mohammad Zain Qureshi, 21, voted twice in the same constituency of Chingford and Woodford Green, Waltham Forest, during the election in June.

    Kudos to the local paper for getting to the story before the nationals. See yesterday's thread.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    MikeL said:

    How are social liberal and social conservative defined?

    I like to think I follow politics quite closely but I'm still puzzled by these phrases and I suspect I'm not the only one.

    Suppose someone supports current abortion rights and supports gay marriage but wants some reasonable level of control of immigration? Where would such a person fit within the definitions?

    And such a person wouldn't be unusual - they would be in the majority on all 3 issues.

    Where would a person who strongly opposes censorship fall within these definitions?

    50 years ago, people who saw themselves as socially liberal would oppose censorship, whereas social conservatives opposed it. But these days, many of the former support curbs on speech, in order to protect minorities.
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    TGOHF said:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/vote-labour-twice-general-election-electoral-fraud-21-year-old-man-mohammad-zain-qureshi-wlatham-a8116671.html?amp


    A man has pleaded guilty to breaking electoral law by voting for Labour twice in the general election.

    Mohammad Zain Qureshi, 21, voted twice in the same constituency of Chingford and Woodford Green, Waltham Forest, during the election in June.

    Chingford is in Waltham Forest, but Woodford Green is in Redbridge.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    I'd guess the image of papers comes a lot from their portrayal on the TV news and other programmes.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,839
    People around Justin Gatlin know where to find banned drugs. Probably today’s least surprising news story, even less surprising than Michel Barnier not wanting to give the UK a good Brexit deal.
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    Re defining socially liberal and socially conservative: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/EU-Briefing-Paper-12-Brexit-and-the-election_V2.pdf see page 6 for the report within the link provided in the tweet.

    Here’s this from the FT which also provides some clarity to the socially liberal versus socially conservative divide - which includes views on traditional British values, pace of cultural change, and crime and punishment.

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/940636171943759873
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Re defining socially liberal and socially conservative: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/EU-Briefing-Paper-12-Brexit-and-the-election_V2.pdf see page 6 for the report within the link provided in the tweet.

    Here’s this from the FT which also provides some clarity to the socially liberal versus socially conservative divide - which includes views on traditional British values, pace of cultural change, and crime and punishment.

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/940636171943759873

    Labour is much more authoritarian - in a less overt but more insidious way - than the Tories
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,839
    Charles said:

    Re defining socially liberal and socially conservative: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/EU-Briefing-Paper-12-Brexit-and-the-election_V2.pdf see page 6 for the report within the link provided in the tweet.

    Here’s this from the FT which also provides some clarity to the socially liberal versus socially conservative divide - which includes views on traditional British values, pace of cultural change, and crime and punishment.

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/940636171943759873

    Labour is much more authoritarian - in a less overt but more insidious way - than the Tories
    What would be really interesting is to see the evolution of the groups over time. I suspect that under Blair the Labour group moved further into the right and authoritarian sectors than is the case under Corbyn.

    I agree that parts of Labour’s Corbynite support are very authoritarian, but they themselves don’t see it that way - the shutting down of dissenting opinion, for example.
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