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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s time Michael Gove got the credit for stopping Boris from

SystemSystem Posts: 12,114
edited November 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s time Michael Gove got the credit for stopping Boris from becoming Prime Minister

We all remember that crazy Thursday morning in July last year when Michael Gove announced that he was standing for the Conservative leadership thus scuppering in one blindingly effective stroke the bid by former Mayor of London, Mr Johnson.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • PendduPenddu Posts: 265
    Gove as PM = JC as PM
  • Second! Like Remain, Yes and Corbyn...
  • I suspect post-budget reshuffle.....Boris currently in the US.....so it would be a bit awkward to summon him back a la Patel......
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    Gove > May > Johnson > Patel

    However, it's entirely possible that there quite a few names that would be to the left of Gove. (I'm not talking politically.)
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,463
    Gove is perhaps an even more divisive figure than Johnson, he is sharp, quick to put down and also has a Robin Cook air about him (which does not necessarily endear him to voters), I think he needs a bit more Cabinet time - education secretary was hardly his finest hour and his BREXIT campaign credentials perhaps make him too much inclined that way. He could be one to watch in a reshuffle I think he would be a good fit as Foreign Secretary (maybe its a Robin Cook thing)- after all, Boris sized space is likely to emerge at some point
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    From a few threads ago:

    For a lot of business tasks you need little more than a decent desk diary and some discipline. I came across a chappie on the radio many years ago who summed up his business admin strategy. He had a little desk ornament that had four words on it - Act, File, Bin, Pass

    His logic was that they were the only four tasks you needed for time management and three of them involved passing the buck.

    File - no further action needed
    Bin - waste of time
    Pass - not my stuff, give to the correct person

    If anything got through those three then he "acted" on it. I adopted the same strategy and it works really well.

    A friend of mine used to be a manager in an engineering office, he kept a little flag on his desk. On one side it said "Tell them to sod off" on the other it said "Stop whinging and get on with it". He figured that covered the answers to 90% of the questions that came through the door of his office. Either it's something that has to be done, in which case the later applies, or its something that is wasting your time, in which case the former is the right option ;)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited November 2017

    From a few threads ago:

    For a lot of business tasks you need little more than a decent desk diary and some discipline. I came across a chappie on the radio many years ago who summed up his business admin strategy. He had a little desk ornament that had four words on it - Act, File, Bin, Pass

    His logic was that they were the only four tasks you needed for time management and three of them involved passing the buck.

    File - no further action needed
    Bin - waste of time
    Pass - not my stuff, give to the correct person

    If anything got through those three then he "acted" on it. I adopted the same strategy and it works really well.

    A friend of mine used to be a manager in an engineering office, he kept a little flag on his desk. On one side it said "Tell them to sod off" on the other it said "Stop whinging and get on with it". He figured that covered the answers to 90% of the questions that came through the door of his office. Either it's something that has to be done, in which case the later applies, or its something that is wasting your time, in which case the former is the right option ;)
    A very senior manager in a company I worked for had (metaphorically) two rubber stamps: GO FASTER and SPEND MORE as he knew the organisation's inherent (small c) conservative nature meant he'd end up with timid proposals.....sometimes he used both.....
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,463

    A friend of mine used to be a manager in an engineering office, he kept a little flag on his desk. On one side it said "Tell them to sod off" on the other it said "Stop whinging and get on with it". He figured that covered the answers to 90% of the questions that came through the door of his office. Either it's something that has to be done, in which case the later applies, or its something that is wasting your time, in which case the former is the right option ;)

    That sounds like Boris Johnson's approach, trouble is,sometimes you have to get on with it
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826
    Re Patel. It's clear Israel are worried about a Corbyn government. May and the Conservatives are seen as friends as was shown by rolling out the red carpet to celebrate the Balfour Declaration last week.

    It seems through the offices of Polak they have been lavishing hospitalitiy on MPs -primarily Conservative- with fine dining and free trips to the country in the hope of gaining influence. In this they have had some degree of success.

    The British government through Patel had recently cut aid to the Palestinians for somewhat spurious reasons and owing to the recent charges of anti semitism scrutiny by Labour has been virtually non existant.

    This coincides with the Israeli chief of propaganda Mark Regev becoming Israel's ambassador to London........

    Join the dots......
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    Gove has been the source of too much leaking, too much undermining, to be taken seriously as a candidate for PM. He has a role in Government - to take on solid blocs of implacable opponents and to press on with reform regardless. But any Cabinet he appointed would have his own modus operandi as a template - and be constantly scheming.

    I couldn't see any circumstances where I would vote for him as party leader, with the exception of him being the candidate against Dr. Fox. And if we got to that shortlist, the party is royally screwed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    Agree with Mike, and Iain Martin. Always been a Gove fan, he gets on with the job and isn’t afraid to make tough decisions when required. Has delivered successes in Education, Justice and now DEFRA, the latter of which will be vitally important as we leave the EU. I wonder if Mrs May isn’t eyeing him up for Boris’ job in a reshuffle, which would be a great stepping stone to the top job.

    He’s also a prominent and genuine Leaver, which if we’ve not completely left the EU at the time of the contest will count in his favour. He will want to make Brexit a success and push international trade hard.

    In a very mediocre field, with a lot of big names dropping like flies, Gove’s huge value at 25/1.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    Don't be surprised if Boris is working behind the scenes with the Iranians - goes to Iran and brings Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe back on the plane with him. We are owed some payback for standing by the Iranian nuclear deal and against Trump. Time for the Foreign Secretary to cash in some favours.

    That will allow him to say that certain things needed to be said to get her home. If the secret deal was for Boris to have to publically suggest she was training journalists - in order to get her home without trial - would people still condemn him for it? And it would explain much....
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,463

    Don't be surprised if Boris is working behind the scenes with the Iranians - goes to Iran and brings Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe back on the plane with him. We are owed some payback for standing by the Iranian nuclear deal and against Trump. Time for the Foreign Secretary to cash in some favours.

    That will allow him to say that certain things needed to be said to get her home. If the secret deal was for Boris to have to publically suggest she was training journalists - in order to get her home without trial - would people still condemn him for it? And it would explain much....

    Blimey that sounds like Johnson style wheeze that comes straight out of a film plot, I cant see it working - the FCO would have a meltdown if they thought that was his plan (stranger things have happened though)
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,203

    Don't be surprised if Boris is working behind the scenes with the Iranians...

    Don't be surprised if Boris is doing his job?
    That's not a very high bar.

    If Boris fixes his mess then fair play.

    I doubt very much this was a cunningly concocted scheme though.
  • Interesting news from the Haringey CLP. A Momentum attempt to unseat the moderate leader of the council failed spectacularly.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169

    Don't be surprised if Boris is working behind the scenes with the Iranians - goes to Iran and brings Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe back on the plane with him. We are owed some payback for standing by the Iranian nuclear deal and against Trump. Time for the Foreign Secretary to cash in some favours.

    That will allow him to say that certain things needed to be said to get her home. If the secret deal was for Boris to have to publically suggest she was training journalists - in order to get her home without trial - would people still condemn him for it? And it would explain much....

    If I were the PM that’s exactly what I’d demand of Boris - that he goes to Iran at the earliest opportunity, and doesn’t come back without the British prisoner if he wants to keep his own job. That might focus his mind somewhat.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited November 2017
  • I've been a backer of Gove for some time.
  • From a few threads ago:

    For a lot of business tasks you need little more than a decent desk diary and some discipline. I came across a chappie on the radio many years ago who summed up his business admin strategy. He had a little desk ornament that had four words on it - Act, File, Bin, Pass

    His logic was that they were the only four tasks you needed for time management and three of them involved passing the buck.

    File - no further action needed
    Bin - waste of time
    Pass - not my stuff, give to the correct person

    If anything got through those three then he "acted" on it. I adopted the same strategy and it works really well.

    A friend of mine used to be a manager in an engineering office, he kept a little flag on his desk. On one side it said "Tell them to sod off" on the other it said "Stop whinging and get on with it". He figured that covered the answers to 90% of the questions that came through the door of his office. Either it's something that has to be done, in which case the later applies, or its something that is wasting your time, in which case the former is the right option ;)
    That's about right. It's astonishing how much time people waste talking about problems rather than solutions, and using their managers/directors as their therapist.

    What really impressed senior leaders is structuring solutions to them with a recommendation you can argue, so they can make a decision, and for you to then be good in completing and delivering it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207

    Don't be surprised if Boris is working behind the scenes with the Iranians - goes to Iran and brings Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe back on the plane with him. We are owed some payback for standing by the Iranian nuclear deal and against Trump. Time for the Foreign Secretary to cash in some favours.

    That will allow him to say that certain things needed to be said to get her home. If the secret deal was for Boris to have to publically suggest she was training journalists - in order to get her home without trial - would people still condemn him for it? And it would explain much....

    Blimey that sounds like Johnson style wheeze that comes straight out of a film plot, I cant see it working - the FCO would have a meltdown if they thought that was his plan (stranger things have happened though)
    Argofuckyourself, maybe? Or maybe the Iranians have now seen the movie?
  • Still enjoying Heffer's book on Britain from 1880-1914.

    What were two key problems with British industry in the 1890s, that led Germany to rapidly overtake the UK?

    Lack of research and development investment, and lack of investment in staff training.

    We still have the same problems 125 years later.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,463
    Any idea who will replace PP now she is on the backbenches - seeing the reaction to the New Def Secretary, it will be interesting to see who comes in - a woman from the Brexit campaign - cant think of many except Kate Hoey or Gisela Stewart, unfortunately they are Labour
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169

    Any idea who will replace PP now she is on the backbenches - seeing the reaction to the New Def Secretary, it will be interesting to see who comes in - a woman from the Brexit campaign - cant think of many except Kate Hoey or Gisela Stewart, unfortunately they are Labour

    How the reshuffle goes down could be interesting to watch. With Parliament in recess there’s loads of Ministers out of the country at the moment which complicates things somewhat.

    Maybe the PM will hold off until Monday or even until after the Budget, appointing an acting SoS DfID from within that department in the interim.
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    edited November 2017
    Excellent value-spotting as usual from OGH and I would like to suggest a spot of value of my own by following The Times' front page headline this morning exclaiming "Brussels braced for fall of Theresa May’s government".
    I've lumped onto Skybet's seemingly generous odds of 11/4 against a 2018 General Election.
    As ever, DYOR.
  • Any idea who will replace PP now she is on the backbenches - seeing the reaction to the New Def Secretary, it will be interesting to see who comes in - a woman from the Brexit campaign - cant think of many except Kate Hoey or Gisela Stewart, unfortunately they are Labour

    Priti also ticked the ethnic minority box, and the right wing box (separately from Brexit).
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,203

    Any idea who will replace PP now she is on the backbenches - seeing the reaction to the New Def Secretary, it will be interesting to see who comes in - a woman from the Brexit campaign - cant think of many except Kate Hoey or Gisela Stewart, unfortunately they are Labour

    Priti also ticked the ethnic minority box, and the right wing box (separately from Brexit).
    All depends if there will be a wider reshuffle I think.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    Still enjoying Heffer's book on Britain from 1880-1914.

    What were two key problems with British industry in the 1890s, that led Germany to rapidly overtake the UK?

    Lack of research and development investment, and lack of investment in staff training.

    We still have the same problems 125 years later.

    The third, much debated at the time, was the superiority of the German school system in teaching its pupils to write, think and count sufficiently well to use the machines and systems they worked on giving higher productivity. Despite Gove's efforts we still have a lot of catching up to do in that area too.
  • Interesting news from the Haringey CLP. A Momentum attempt to unseat the moderate leader of the council failed spectacularly.

    Do tell
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,056
    DavidL said:

    Still enjoying Heffer's book on Britain from 1880-1914.

    What were two key problems with British industry in the 1890s, that led Germany to rapidly overtake the UK?

    Lack of research and development investment, and lack of investment in staff training.

    We still have the same problems 125 years later.

    The third, much debated at the time, was the superiority of the German school system in teaching its pupils to write, think and count sufficiently well to use the machines and systems they worked on giving higher productivity. Despite Gove's efforts we still have a lot of catching up to do in that area too.
    Germany is catching up with Britain quite quickly in that respect.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    What I really want from a PM is a degree of competence and some intelligence. It doesn't seem to be a lot to ask from the elected leader of 65m people but blimey, we really struggle to find the combination. Cameron had both as did Blair, May fails completely on the first and seems to struggle a bit with the second. Brown, well, lets not go there.

    Gove undoubtedly has the intelligence. Whether he has the degree of competence required is open to debate but he undoubtedly has the ability and drive to get things done against institutional opposition.

    It is, it has to be said, a pretty poor field. But for me, with all my reservations about his Marmite qualities, he is the stand out candidate when the zombie finally crashes to the ground.
  • When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Michael Gove might be the improbable truth. I've been backing him for some time.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    eristdoof said:

    DavidL said:

    Still enjoying Heffer's book on Britain from 1880-1914.

    What were two key problems with British industry in the 1890s, that led Germany to rapidly overtake the UK?

    Lack of research and development investment, and lack of investment in staff training.

    We still have the same problems 125 years later.

    The third, much debated at the time, was the superiority of the German school system in teaching its pupils to write, think and count sufficiently well to use the machines and systems they worked on giving higher productivity. Despite Gove's efforts we still have a lot of catching up to do in that area too.
    Germany is catching up with Britain quite quickly in that respect.
    Their productivity is still miles ahead of ours.

    The challenge western nations face is the much hungrier, more highly motivated and driven children of the east. Their education systems may well not do much for imagination or creativity (although the evidence on that is increasingly mixed) but they are producing the work force of the future. If our children are to be employed in higher skilled jobs we really need to change our education radically. Blair saw it but did not deliver. Gove tried to change things with modest success. Most of our Secretaries of State for Education from both parties have been a total waste of space.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    The Indy, famous for its great contacts in the Tory party of course, claims May has until Christmas to turn things around: http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/theresa-may-faces-make-or-break-month-after-cabinet-chaos-forces-priti-patel-out/ar-BBEK1qU?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=iehp

    I wonder if these "senior Conservatives" are friends of the "senior Labour MPs" who set so many deadlines for Corbyn to so little effect.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    DavidL said:

    Most of our Secretaries of State for Education from both parties have been a total waste of space.

    Sir, you are unfair. There are many very fine wastes of space. Look at the Highlands.

    Our Education Secretaries on the other hand...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Most of our Secretaries of State for Education from both parties have been a total waste of space.

    Sir, you are unfair. There are many very fine wastes of space. Look at the Highlands.

    Our Education Secretaries on the other hand...
    A very fair point.
  • Interesting news from the Haringey CLP. A Momentum attempt to unseat the moderate leader of the council failed spectacularly.

    I have to say, I can’t say I’m unhappy about that. Some of the more crazier Corbynistas’ response to the Kelvin Hopkins allegations and their recent round of Laura K attacks has had me even more worried about Momentum than I was before.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Roger said:

    Re Patel. It's clear Israel are worried about a Corbyn government. May and the Conservatives are seen as friends as was shown by rolling out the red carpet to celebrate the Balfour Declaration last week.

    It seems through the offices of Polak they have been lavishing hospitalitiy on MPs -primarily Conservative- with fine dining and free trips to the country in the hope of gaining influence. In this they have had some degree of success.

    The British government through Patel had recently cut aid to the Palestinians for somewhat spurious reasons and owing to the recent charges of anti semitism scrutiny by Labour has been virtually non existant.

    This coincides with the Israeli chief of propaganda Mark Regev becoming Israel's ambassador to London........

    Join the dots......

    Just listening to Radio 4, seems that most papers around the world are going on about the Patel's "resignation", however in the country that should have more interest than most, the Israeli media is more interested in the legal problems of Netanyahu and his attempts to stay out of prison.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    edited November 2017

    Good day for Boeing & Trump - not so good for Airbus:

    https://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes/status/928504025036873729


    ttps://twitter.com/Reuters/status/928411861367783425

    China is going to be the fastest growing market in aviation for the next couple of decades, and to be fair to them Airbus have opened an A320 assembly line in the country to support demand there. http://www.businessinsider.com/airbus-china-factory-a320-2015-8
    Huge opportunities for the company that can dominate this market though, which will be a large number of smaller planes (as opposed to the Middle East, which is a comparatively small number of large planes. Emirates now only has two types on its fleet, the B777 and the A380. More than a hundred of the latter!)
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    DavidL said:

    What I really want from a PM is a degree of competence and some intelligence. It doesn't seem to be a lot to ask from the elected leader of 65m people but blimey, we really struggle to find the combination. Cameron had both as did Blair, May fails completely on the first and seems to struggle a bit with the second. Brown, well, lets not go there.

    Gove undoubtedly has the intelligence. Whether he has the degree of competence required is open to debate but he undoubtedly has the ability and drive to get things done against institutional opposition.

    It is, it has to be said, a pretty poor field. But for me, with all my reservations about his Marmite qualities, he is the stand out candidate when the zombie finally crashes to the ground.

    Crikey, is he as popular as Marmite?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    OchEye said:

    DavidL said:

    What I really want from a PM is a degree of competence and some intelligence. It doesn't seem to be a lot to ask from the elected leader of 65m people but blimey, we really struggle to find the combination. Cameron had both as did Blair, May fails completely on the first and seems to struggle a bit with the second. Brown, well, lets not go there.

    Gove undoubtedly has the intelligence. Whether he has the degree of competence required is open to debate but he undoubtedly has the ability and drive to get things done against institutional opposition.

    It is, it has to be said, a pretty poor field. But for me, with all my reservations about his Marmite qualities, he is the stand out candidate when the zombie finally crashes to the ground.

    Crikey, is he as popular as Marmite?
    Only with some!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DavidL said:

    Still enjoying Heffer's book on Britain from 1880-1914.

    What were two key problems with British industry in the 1890s, that led Germany to rapidly overtake the UK?

    Lack of research and development investment, and lack of investment in staff training.

    We still have the same problems 125 years later.

    The third, much debated at the time, was the superiority of the German school system in teaching its pupils to write, think and count sufficiently well to use the machines and systems they worked on giving higher productivity. Despite Gove's efforts we still have a lot of catching up to do in that area too.
    Gove's education reforms are a slow motion capture crash of a disaster.

    We will look back at the formation of for-profit management structures imposed on state schools and the striping away of accountability and inspection and wonder what the heck Give was imagining would happen.

    The story of the asset stripped schools should crucify Give.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited November 2017
    DavidL said:

    What I really want from a PM is a degree of competence and some intelligence. It doesn't seem to be a lot to ask from the elected leader of 65m people but blimey, we really struggle to find the combination. Cameron had both as did Blair, May fails completely on the first and seems to struggle a bit with the second. Brown, well, lets not go there.

    Gove undoubtedly has the intelligence. Whether he has the degree of competence required is open to debate but he undoubtedly has the ability and drive to get things done against institutional opposition.

    It is, it has to be said, a pretty poor field. But for me, with all my reservations about his Marmite qualities, he is the stand out candidate when the zombie finally crashes to the ground.

    Gove has intelligence and energy, but is rather quixiotic (remember his Bibles?) and does rather enjoy the skullduggery of court politics. Competence is very moot. The reaction to a failing leader is too often to overvalue what the failing one lacks.

    Hammond or Hunt are my tips. On the other hand my leadership book on both party leaders is a real mess. It is very difficult to predict who will triumph in the chaos.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Gove conquers all?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,494

    Don't be surprised if Boris is working behind the scenes with the Iranians - goes to Iran and brings Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe back on the plane with him. We are owed some payback for standing by the Iranian nuclear deal and against Trump. Time for the Foreign Secretary to cash in some favours.

    That will allow him to say that certain things needed to be said to get her home. If the secret deal was for Boris to have to publically suggest she was training journalists - in order to get her home without trial - would people still condemn him for it? And it would explain much....

    I hope you're right. But years of seeing Boris, sometimes at close quarters in Committee, suggest the Occam's Razor simple answer: he cocked up, and doesn't like to admit it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139

    Don't be surprised if Boris is working behind the scenes with the Iranians - goes to Iran and brings Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe back on the plane with him. We are owed some payback for standing by the Iranian nuclear deal and against Trump. Time for the Foreign Secretary to cash in some favours.

    That will allow him to say that certain things needed to be said to get her home. If the secret deal was for Boris to have to publically suggest she was training journalists - in order to get her home without trial - would people still condemn him for it? And it would explain much....

    That's a possibility. So is the fact he was just being a buffoon.

    I'd put the latter as more likely than the former.

    (I'm also unsure the Iranian reaction would have been as it was if there'd been a secret deal. It also assumes BJ cares enough about Zaghari-Ratcliffe to use political capital to ensure her release. I see no reason that he would).
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Giving Gove the credit for stopping Johnson? Isn't that a bit like hitting your head against a wall because it is nice when you stop?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    Sandpit said:

    Good day for Boeing & Trump - not so good for Airbus:

    https://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes/status/928504025036873729


    ttps://twitter.com/Reuters/status/928411861367783425

    China is going to be the fastest growing market in aviation for the next couple of decades, and to be fair to them Airbus have opened an A320 assembly line in the country to support demand there. http://www.businessinsider.com/airbus-china-factory-a320-2015-8
    Huge opportunities for the company that can dominate this market though, which will be a large number of smaller planes (as opposed to the Middle East, which is a comparatively small number of large planes. Emirates now only has two types on its fleet, the B777 and the A380. More than a hundred of the latter!)
    Airbus has the (slightly) better narrow body range, with the A318-321 being a little better than the 737 (prior to the MAX).

    Boeing has a massively superior widebody range, with the 777 and the Dreamliner kicking Airbus's butt (and the A380 being a spectacular failure). That being said, my aviation industry friends say the A350 is a very compelling offering - with near 777 capacity and Dreamliner running costs.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Good morning, everyone.

    Gove conquers all?

    Gove hides in the strangest places.
    Gove hides in familiar faces.
    Gove comes when you least expect it.
    Gove hides in narrow corners.
    Gove comes to those who seek him.
    Gove hides inside the rainbow.
    Gove hides in molecular structures.
    Gove is the answer.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,494

    DavidL said:

    What I really want from a PM is a degree of competence and some intelligence. It doesn't seem to be a lot to ask from the elected leader of 65m people but blimey, we really struggle to find the combination. Cameron had both as did Blair, May fails completely on the first and seems to struggle a bit with the second. Brown, well, lets not go there.

    Gove undoubtedly has the intelligence. Whether he has the degree of competence required is open to debate but he undoubtedly has the ability and drive to get things done against institutional opposition.

    It is, it has to be said, a pretty poor field. But for me, with all my reservations about his Marmite qualities, he is the stand out candidate when the zombie finally crashes to the ground.

    Gove has intelligence and energy, but is rather quixiotic (remember his Bibles?) and does rather enjoy the skullduggery of court politics. Competence is very moot. The reaction to a failing leader is too often to overvalue what the failing one lacks.

    Hammond or Hunt are my tips. On the other hand my leadership book on both party leaders is a real mess. It is very difficult to predict who will triumph in the chaos.
    I try to keep my day job separate from comment here, but as it's a positive comment it probably does no harm to say I'm very impressed by Gove. The thing about him is that he likes to engage energetically in whatever brief he's given, and isn't too alarmed by the presence of vested interests. At a time when many Ministers seem preoccupied with career and succession issues, he really shines as someone trying to do his job well.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    A very senior manager in a company I worked for had (metaphorically) two rubber stamps: GO FASTER and SPEND MORE as he knew the organisation's inherent (small c) conservative nature meant he'd end up with timid proposals.....sometimes he used both.....

    At one time the team I was on made an actual rubber stamp for our manager, with a single word on it.

    DENIED
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676
    edited November 2017
    So according to Landale PP got the boot for going a bit off piste and operating in the fairly large union set between DfID and FCO.

    Vaguely incompetent, vaguely uncoordinated, vaguely ambitious.

    BFD but typical of the government atm.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    European Union leaders are preparing for the fall of Theresa May before the new year, it emerged yesterday, as the prime minister lost her second cabinet minister in a week.

    Fears are growing in Brussels that the instability of Mrs May’s government raises the real prospect of a change of leadership or elections leading to a Labour victory.

    One European leader told The Times that officials were planning for both scenarios. “There is the great difficulty of the leadership in Great Britain, which is more and more fragile,” the leader said. “Britain is very weak and the weakness of Theresa May makes [Brexit] negotiations very difficult.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brussels-braced-for-fall-of-may-s-government-v28zlzvsp
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Gove conquers all?

    Gove hides in the strangest places.
    Gove hides in familiar faces.
    Gove comes when you least expect it.
    Gove hides in narrow corners.
    Gove comes to those who seek him.
    Gove hides inside the rainbow.
    Gove hides in molecular structures.
    Gove is the answer.
    Is that Google autosuggestion?
  • Scott_P said:

    European Union leaders are preparing for the fall of Theresa May before the new year, it emerged yesterday, as the prime minister lost her second cabinet minister in a week.

    Fears are growing in Brussels that the instability of Mrs May’s government raises the real prospect of a change of leadership or elections leading to a Labour victory.

    One European leader told The Times that officials were planning for both scenarios. “There is the great difficulty of the leadership in Great Britain, which is more and more fragile,” the leader said. “Britain is very weak and the weakness of Theresa May makes [Brexit] negotiations very difficult.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brussels-braced-for-fall-of-may-s-government-v28zlzvsp

    Do the EU not know how the FTP Act works?
  • Glad to see OGH saying what I have said for the last year or more.

    Gove knew the consequences of ruining Boris's chances but he also knew his personal ambition s had to be subsumed to the far more important task of preventing a man becoming PM who was singularly unsuited to the role and would have been a disaster for the country.

    Does this mean Gove is himself a suitable candidate for PM? - No. He is undoubtedly one of the most able ministers we have had for decades as his time at Justice and DEFRA show. He masters his brief and then looks for genuine solutions to genuine problems.

    But that does not mean he is necessarily suited to the position of PM. I don't think he would be popular enough with the general public and his awkward, slightly geeky nature is not suited to the modern political system where presentation is everything and substance comes a very poor second.

    I also want him to stay long enough at DEFRA to make a real difference on matters such as soil depletion and the collapse of insect populations.
  • A point of pedantry, it was a Thursday last June, not July.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    DavidL said:

    What I really want from a PM is a degree of competence and some intelligence. It doesn't seem to be a lot to ask from the elected leader of 65m people but blimey, we really struggle to find the combination. Cameron had both as did Blair, May fails completely on the first and seems to struggle a bit with the second. Brown, well, lets not go there.

    Gove undoubtedly has the intelligence. Whether he has the degree of competence required is open to debate but he undoubtedly has the ability and drive to get things done against institutional opposition.

    It is, it has to be said, a pretty poor field. But for me, with all my reservations about his Marmite qualities, he is the stand out candidate when the zombie finally crashes to the ground.

    Gove has intelligence and energy, but is rather quixiotic (remember his Bibles?) and does rather enjoy the skullduggery of court politics. Competence is very moot. The reaction to a failing leader is too often to overvalue what the failing one lacks.

    Hammond or Hunt are my tips. On the other hand my leadership book on both party leaders is a real mess. It is very difficult to predict who will triumph in the chaos.
    I try to keep my day job separate from comment here, but as it's a positive comment it probably does no harm to say I'm very impressed by Gove. The thing about him is that he likes to engage energetically in whatever brief he's given, and isn't too alarmed by the presence of vested interests. At a time when many Ministers seem preoccupied with career and succession issues, he really shines as someone trying to do his job well.
    I quite like Gove myself, and am sure that he would be an engaging dinner companion.

    His attacks on vested interests are rather patchy, unsustained and arguable in terms of results. He like new and radical thinking, but hasn't always seen it through. An able deputy if kept on a short leash, but for PM?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited November 2017
    FTPT

    overreach?

    "Democratic leaders gleefully predicted that the Senate, where the Republicans hold a two-seat majority, might now be in play."

    https://www.nytimes.com/?action=click&contentCollection=Asia Pacific&region=TopBar&module=HomePage-Button&pgtype=article&WT.z_jog=1&hF=t&vS=undefined

    Undoubtedly yes in my opinion, however...

    The results of Tuesday mean that what I had thought an impossible task given the electoral map - the Dems holding the same number seats as they have now - looks way more achievable.

    The way the Virginia suburbs rejected the Republican candidate was a big, important signal in my view.

    EDIT: We'll be getting Gallup's party affiliation survey soon. Last month was 24% Republican which is close to all time low over the last couple of decades.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    TOPPING said:

    So according to Landale PP got the boot for going a bit off piste and operating in the fairly large union set between DfID and FCO.

    Vaguely incompetent, vaguely uncoordinated, vaguely ambitious.

    BFD but typical of the government atm.

    What intrigues me though is why she felt emboldened enough to go "off piste". (If Landale used that exact expression that clearly he reads PB).
  • Getting bore with Rajoy and Spain now, they seem to have adopted the Erdogan/Turkey model of repression wholesale. Can't they do something original?

    https://twitter.com/llisjak/status/927838089296384001

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Gove conquers all?

    Gove hides in the strangest places.
    Gove hides in familiar faces.
    Gove comes when you least expect it.
    Gove hides in narrow corners.
    Gove comes to those who seek him.
    Gove hides inside the rainbow.
    Gove hides in molecular structures.
    Gove is the answer.
    Is that Google autosuggestion?
    Song by the Doors.

    Sorry about line 3, I feel bad about doing that while people are having breakfast.
  • Priti Patel is blaming the Foreign Office for her resignation.

    If Mrs May wants to show she is strong and stable she should appoint Sir Alan Duncan as Patel’s replacement.

    It would send a signal to Israel.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207


    It also assumes BJ cares enough about Zaghari-Ratcliffe to use political capital to ensure her release. I see no reason that he would).

    Well he probably does now!

    I don't give any particular weighting as to Boris being strategist or buffoon. I just don't rule him out yet....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169

    Don't be surprised if Boris is working behind the scenes with the Iranians - goes to Iran and brings Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe back on the plane with him. We are owed some payback for standing by the Iranian nuclear deal and against Trump. Time for the Foreign Secretary to cash in some favours.

    That will allow him to say that certain things needed to be said to get her home. If the secret deal was for Boris to have to publically suggest she was training journalists - in order to get her home without trial - would people still condemn him for it? And it would explain much....

    That's a possibility. So is the fact he was just being a buffoon.

    I'd put the latter as more likely than the former.

    (I'm also unsure the Iranian reaction would have been as it was if there'd been a secret deal. It also assumes BJ cares enough about Zaghari-Ratcliffe to use political capital to ensure her release. I see no reason that he would).
    I think it’s close to the point where, if Boris cares about his own job, he’ll burn as much political capital as it takes to get this lady out of an Iranian prison.
  • @rcs1000

    A. The A320neo and the A321LR are significantly better than the MAX. Look at sales figures and if you don’t believe that look at the scramble to produce the MAX-10.

    B. Boeing is not kicking Airbus’ butt in wide body. Again look at the sales figures for the A350. Ive no doubt the 777X will be ok but it would be helpful to have it in service. The A380 is a failure but have a look at the sunk costs on the 747-8.

    Boeing remain the more customer friendly manufacturer but that will only take you so far.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826
    OchEye said:

    Roger said:

    Re Patel. It's clear Israel are worried about a Corbyn government. May and the Conservatives are seen as friends as was shown by rolling out the red carpet to celebrate the Balfour Declaration last week.

    It seems through the offices of Polak they have been lavishing hospitalitiy on MPs -primarily Conservative- with fine dining and free trips to the country in the hope of gaining influence. In this they have had some degree of success.

    The British government through Patel had recently cut aid to the Palestinians for somewhat spurious reasons and owing to the recent charges of anti semitism scrutiny by Labour has been virtually non existant.

    This coincides with the Israeli chief of propaganda Mark Regev becoming Israel's ambassador to London........

    Join the dots......

    Just listening to Radio 4, seems that most papers around the world are going on about the Patel's "resignation", however in the country that should have more interest than most, the Israeli media is more interested in the legal problems of Netanyahu and his attempts to stay out of prison.
    There is a very real possibility he'll end up in jail. He has allegedly been skimming off the top since at least 2000. It is to Israel's credit that they have a sufficiently independent judiciary that they're still on his tail. Then again so have Italy but Burlusconi is still on the loose
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Gove conquers all?

    Gove hides in the strangest places.
    Gove hides in familiar faces.
    Gove comes when you least expect it.
    Gove hides in narrow corners.
    Gove comes to those who seek him.
    Gove hides inside the rainbow.
    Gove hides in molecular structures.
    Gove is the answer.
    Is that Google autosuggestion?
    Song by the Doors.

    Sorry about line 3, I feel bad about doing that while people are having breakfast.
    Quite. No one needs the image of a startled Sarah Vine during muesli eating.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    He got credit at the time, even if he also got condemnation.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,463

    Scott_P said:

    European Union leaders are preparing for the fall of Theresa May before the new year, it emerged yesterday, as the prime minister lost her second cabinet minister in a week.

    Fears are growing in Brussels that the instability of Mrs May’s government raises the real prospect of a change of leadership or elections leading to a Labour victory.

    One European leader told The Times that officials were planning for both scenarios. “There is the great difficulty of the leadership in Great Britain, which is more and more fragile,” the leader said. “Britain is very weak and the weakness of Theresa May makes [Brexit] negotiations very difficult.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brussels-braced-for-fall-of-may-s-government-v28zlzvsp

    Do the EU not know how the FTP Act works?
    I'm not sure anyone quite knows how the FTPA will pan out in the event of the May government falling - most of PBetting at the start of 2017 thought that we wouldn't see an election before 2020
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good day for Boeing & Trump - not so good for Airbus:

    https://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes/status/928504025036873729


    ttps://twitter.com/Reuters/status/928411861367783425

    China is going to be the fastest growing market in aviation for the next couple of decades, and to be fair to them Airbus have opened an A320 assembly line in the country to support demand there. http://www.businessinsider.com/airbus-china-factory-a320-2015-8
    Huge opportunities for the company that can dominate this market though, which will be a large number of smaller planes (as opposed to the Middle East, which is a comparatively small number of large planes. Emirates now only has two types on its fleet, the B777 and the A380. More than a hundred of the latter!)
    Airbus has the (slightly) better narrow body range, with the A318-321 being a little better than the 737 (prior to the MAX).

    Boeing has a massively superior widebody range, with the 777 and the Dreamliner kicking Airbus's butt (and the A380 being a spectacular failure). That being said, my aviation industry friends say the A350 is a very compelling offering - with near 777 capacity and Dreamliner running costs.
    That sounds about right, and on the last point Boeing are countering with a 777-MAX, but it’s a few years away yet while A350s are (slowly) entering service. The new Bombardier which is causing so much stress in the USA is also a very good smaller plane.

    I think the general rule of thumb is that the newest plane is the best, once they’ve got the teething problems out of the production line. Emirates are already retiring older A380s, as they were on 10 year leases and are up to 10 tonnes heavier than new ones!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,471
    Gove is both obvious and ridiculous.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    Don't be surprised if Boris is working behind the scenes with the Iranians - goes to Iran and brings Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe back on the plane with him. We are owed some payback for standing by the Iranian nuclear deal and against Trump. Time for the Foreign Secretary to cash in some favours.

    That will allow him to say that certain things needed to be said to get her home. If the secret deal was for Boris to have to publically suggest she was training journalists - in order to get her home without trial - would people still condemn him for it? And it would explain much....

    I hope you're right. But years of seeing Boris, sometimes at close quarters in Committee, suggest the Occam's Razor simple answer: he cocked up, and doesn't like to admit it.
    Let us hope someone else is fixing his mess.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Jonathan said:

    Gove is both obvious and ridiculous.

    but not as obvious or ridiculous as Corbyn becoming PM. This is RIDICULOUS>
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    Getting bore with Rajoy and Spain now, they seem to have adopted the Erdogan/Turkey model of repression wholesale. Can't they do something original?

    https://twitter.com/llisjak/status/927838089296384001

    Lese majesty is a crime in Spain?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Any idea who will replace PP now she is on the backbenches - seeing the reaction to the New Def Secretary, it will be interesting to see who comes in - a woman from the Brexit campaign - cant think of many except Kate Hoey or Gisela Stewart, unfortunately they are Labour

    Priti also ticked the ethnic minority box, and the right wing box (separately from Brexit).
    It’s ticking the boxes which is the problem. The only box to be ticked should be “competence”.

    Anyway, isn’t the real story today the fact that we have until the end of the month to come up with the exit money - what we will pay for - so as to get trade talks underway? Otherwise the next opportunity is March and, by then, it will be too late to get anything in place by March 2019.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169

    DavidL said:

    What I really want from a PM is a degree of competence and some intelligence. It doesn't seem to be a lot to ask from the elected leader of 65m people but blimey, we really struggle to find the combination. Cameron had both as did Blair, May fails completely on the first and seems to struggle a bit with the second. Brown, well, lets not go there.

    Gove undoubtedly has the intelligence. Whether he has the degree of competence required is open to debate but he undoubtedly has the ability and drive to get things done against institutional opposition.

    It is, it has to be said, a pretty poor field. But for me, with all my reservations about his Marmite qualities, he is the stand out candidate when the zombie finally crashes to the ground.

    Gove has intelligence and energy, but is rather quixiotic (remember his Bibles?) and does rather enjoy the skullduggery of court politics. Competence is very moot. The reaction to a failing leader is too often to overvalue what the failing one lacks.

    Hammond or Hunt are my tips. On the other hand my leadership book on both party leaders is a real mess. It is very difficult to predict who will triumph in the chaos.
    I try to keep my day job separate from comment here, but as it's a positive comment it probably does no harm to say I'm very impressed by Gove. The thing about him is that he likes to engage energetically in whatever brief he's given, and isn't too alarmed by the presence of vested interests. At a time when many Ministers seem preoccupied with career and succession issues, he really shines as someone trying to do his job well.
    Well he can’t be doing a bad job, when former political opponents have good things to say about him. :+1:
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I believe the the Spanish police are suing over having their feelings hurt when they beat Catalonian voters as well.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Gove conquers all?

    Gove hides in the strangest places.
    Gove hides in familiar faces.
    Gove comes when you least expect it.
    Gove hides in narrow corners.
    Gove comes to those who seek him.
    Gove hides inside the rainbow.
    Gove hides in molecular structures.
    Gove is the answer.
    Is that Google autosuggestion?
    Song by the Doors.

    Sorry about line 3, I feel bad about doing that while people are having breakfast.
    Quite. No one needs the image of a startled Sarah Vine during muesli eating.
    The fragrant Mrs Vine being beaten up by the vicious Mr Portillo

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/watch-michael-goves-wife-sarah-5325887

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    kle4 said:

    Getting bore with Rajoy and Spain now, they seem to have adopted the Erdogan/Turkey model of repression wholesale. Can't they do something original?

    https://twitter.com/llisjak/status/927838089296384001

    Lese majesty is a crime in Spain?
    It’s a worrying approach to free speech certainly. If you can be locked up for insulting the Crown, why not be locked up for insulting a religious figure, for instance?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    Cyclefree said:

    Any idea who will replace PP now she is on the backbenches - seeing the reaction to the New Def Secretary, it will be interesting to see who comes in - a woman from the Brexit campaign - cant think of many except Kate Hoey or Gisela Stewart, unfortunately they are Labour

    Priti also ticked the ethnic minority box, and the right wing box (separately from Brexit).
    It’s ticking the boxes which is the problem. The only box to be ticked should be “competence”.

    Anyway, isn’t the real story today the fact that we have until the end of the month to come up with the exit money - what we will pay for - so as to get trade talks underway? Otherwise the next opportunity is March and, by then, it will be too late to get anything in place by March 2019.
    There are some who will object to any amount, and given how weak the government is there has to be the possibility they don't agree an amount.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    edited November 2017
    Gove certainly was fatal for the chances of Boris in 2016 and Boris would have probably been fatal to the chances of any FTA with the EU having been too associated with the Leave campaign and the promise of £350 million a week for the NHS to make the compromises necessary. May as a Remainer can make those compromises and the EU are also more willing to give her a hearing than they would have been for Boris.

    Gove has no chance of being the next Tory leader though, his abysmal polling means he is electoral poison, Davis is more likely to succeed May as PM in my view though I would not rule out Boris either once Brexit is done and of course Rees Mogg is also now an outside contender, though more likely a future opposition leader.

    Chancellor of the Exchequer under Davis is a much more likely path for Gove I think.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,471
    Cyclefree said:

    Any idea who will replace PP now she is on the backbenches - seeing the reaction to the New Def Secretary, it will be interesting to see who comes in - a woman from the Brexit campaign - cant think of many except Kate Hoey or Gisela Stewart, unfortunately they are Labour

    Priti also ticked the ethnic minority box, and the right wing box (separately from Brexit).
    It’s ticking the boxes which is the problem. The only box to be ticked should be “competence”.
    Integrity, Honesty?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    Roger said:

    OchEye said:

    Roger said:

    Re Patel. It's clear Israel are worried about a Corbyn government. May and the Conservatives are seen as friends as was shown by rolling out the red carpet to celebrate the Balfour Declaration last week.

    It seems through the offices of Polak they have been lavishing hospitalitiy on MPs -primarily Conservative- with fine dining and free trips to the country in the hope of gaining influence. In this they have had some degree of success.

    The British government through Patel had recently cut aid to the Palestinians for somewhat spurious reasons and owing to the recent charges of anti semitism scrutiny by Labour has been virtually non existant.

    This coincides with the Israeli chief of propaganda Mark Regev becoming Israel's ambassador to London........

    Join the dots......

    Just listening to Radio 4, seems that most papers around the world are going on about the Patel's "resignation", however in the country that should have more interest than most, the Israeli media is more interested in the legal problems of Netanyahu and his attempts to stay out of prison.
    There is a very real possibility he'll end up in jail. He has allegedly been skimming off the top since at least 2000. It is to Israel's credit that they have a sufficiently independent judiciary that they're still on his tail. Then again so have Italy but Burlusconi is still on the loose
    Berlusconi will likely have the balance of power on current polling next year and will use it to make 5* the governing party.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,494

    Glad to see OGH saying what I have said for the last year or more.

    Gove knew the consequences of ruining Boris's chances but he also knew his personal ambition s had to be subsumed to the far more important task of preventing a man becoming PM who was singularly unsuited to the role and would have been a disaster for the country.

    Does this mean Gove is himself a suitable candidate for PM? - No. He is undoubtedly one of the most able ministers we have had for decades as his time at Justice and DEFRA show. He masters his brief and then looks for genuine solutions to genuine problems.

    But that does not mean he is necessarily suited to the position of PM. I don't think he would be popular enough with the general public and his awkward, slightly geeky nature is not suited to the modern political system where presentation is everything and substance comes a very poor second.

    I also want him to stay long enough at DEFRA to make a real difference on matters such as soil depletion and the collapse of insect populations.

    I want him to stay at DEFRA too, for similar reasons. But on your other points, the electorate is in a restless mood, willing to consider people with characteristics that would previously have ruled them out. I wouldn't say that Corbyn is a master of presentation, but he's obviously sincere and dedicated, and many people in 2017 came to feel that perhaps those qualities deserved some weight.

    We could really do with some more detailed polling on the state of opinion. My gut feeling is that basic loyalty to Tories and Labour remains reasonably evenly divided (so headline VI is probably still only a modest Labour lead), but certainty to vote is now much higher among Labour voters: on the whole they think the party has got its act together, and I don't meet many Conservatives who feel the same.

    I don't see mass Con->Lab defections but I can well see many Tories sitting an election out if things continue in the current vein: many no longer feel that a Corbyn Government is an impossible nightmare, and giving a vote of confidence to the current Government feels... odd.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    DavidL said:

    What I really want from a PM is a degree of competence and some intelligence. It doesn't seem to be a lot to ask from the elected leader of 65m people but blimey, we really struggle to find the combination. Cameron had both as did Blair, May fails completely on the first and seems to struggle a bit with the second. Brown, well, lets not go there.

    Gove undoubtedly has the intelligence. Whether he has the degree of competence required is open to debate but he undoubtedly has the ability and drive to get things done against institutional opposition.

    It is, it has to be said, a pretty poor field. But for me, with all my reservations about his Marmite qualities, he is the stand out candidate when the zombie finally crashes to the ground.

    Gove has intelligence and energy, but is rather quixiotic (remember his Bibles?) and does rather enjoy the skullduggery of court politics. Competence is very moot. The reaction to a failing leader is too often to overvalue what the failing one lacks.

    Hammond or Hunt are my tips. On the other hand my leadership book on both party leaders is a real mess. It is very difficult to predict who will triumph in the chaos.
    I try to keep my day job separate from comment here, but as it's a positive comment it probably does no harm to say I'm very impressed by Gove. The thing about him is that he likes to engage energetically in whatever brief he's given, and isn't too alarmed by the presence of vested interests. At a time when many Ministers seem preoccupied with career and succession issues, he really shines as someone trying to do his job well.
    This morning’s announcement about bees is particularly welcome. I am very keen on bees. They are still buzzing in my garden. I always make a point of having flowers which flower during winter because (a) it helps bees; and (b) the fragrance is usually very strong, which is wonderful during a bleak time. See, for instance, the daphne or sarcocca confusa (Christmas box).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Getting bore with Rajoy and Spain now, they seem to have adopted the Erdogan/Turkey model of repression wholesale. Can't they do something original?

    https://twitter.com/llisjak/status/927838089296384001

    Lese majesty is a crime in Spain?
    It’s a worrying approach to free speech certainly. If you can be locked up for insulting the Crown, why not be locked up for insulting a religious figure, for instance?
    Thailand has some pretty robust lese-majestie laws. Ex pat websites often warn about them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    edited November 2017
    Roger said:

    Re Patel. It's clear Israel are worried about a Corbyn government. May and the Conservatives are seen as friends as was shown by rolling out the red carpet to celebrate the Balfour Declaration last week.

    It seems through the offices of Polak they have been lavishing hospitalitiy on MPs -primarily Conservative- with fine dining and free trips to the country in the hope of gaining influence. In this they have had some degree of success.

    The British government through Patel had recently cut aid to the Palestinians for somewhat spurious reasons and owing to the recent charges of anti semitism scrutiny by Labour has been virtually non existant.

    This coincides with the Israeli chief of propaganda Mark Regev becoming Israel's ambassador to London........

    Join the dots......

    Israeli intelligence has been crucial to stopping a number of terrorist attacks on the UK, that would stop under a PM Corbyn which would be dangerous for us.

    Aid to the Palestinians was only suspended after some of it ended up going to Hamas.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1927874/britain-suspends-millions-of-aid-payments-to-palestine-amid-claims-cash-is-handed-to-terrorists/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Any idea who will replace PP now she is on the backbenches - seeing the reaction to the New Def Secretary, it will be interesting to see who comes in - a woman from the Brexit campaign - cant think of many except Kate Hoey or Gisela Stewart, unfortunately they are Labour

    Priti also ticked the ethnic minority box, and the right wing box (separately from Brexit).
    It’s ticking the boxes which is the problem. The only box to be ticked should be “competence”.
    Integrity, Honesty?

    Ideal, but if only one can be had, competence is the key.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scott_P said:

    European Union leaders are preparing for the fall of Theresa May before the new year, it emerged yesterday, as the prime minister lost her second cabinet minister in a week.

    Fears are growing in Brussels that the instability of Mrs May’s government raises the real prospect of a change of leadership or elections leading to a Labour victory.

    One European leader told The Times that officials were planning for both scenarios. “There is the great difficulty of the leadership in Great Britain, which is more and more fragile,” the leader said. “Britain is very weak and the weakness of Theresa May makes [Brexit] negotiations very difficult.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brussels-braced-for-fall-of-may-s-government-v28zlzvsp

    Do the EU not know how the FTP Act works?
    They are just stirring.

    Without knowing who the source is you don't know if they want no deal or a better deal for the EU
  • Roger said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Gove conquers all?

    Gove hides in the strangest places.
    Gove hides in familiar faces.
    Gove comes when you least expect it.
    Gove hides in narrow corners.
    Gove comes to those who seek him.
    Gove hides inside the rainbow.
    Gove hides in molecular structures.
    Gove is the answer.
    Is that Google autosuggestion?
    Song by the Doors.

    Sorry about line 3, I feel bad about doing that while people are having breakfast.
    Quite. No one needs the image of a startled Sarah Vine during muesli eating.
    The fragrant Mrs Vine being beaten up by the vicious Mr Portillo

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/watch-michael-goves-wife-sarah-5325887

    Shocked that the Mirror doesn't know how to spell 'Stalinist'..
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    Scott_P said:

    European Union leaders are preparing for the fall of Theresa May before the new year, it emerged yesterday, as the prime minister lost her second cabinet minister in a week.

    Fears are growing in Brussels that the instability of Mrs May’s government raises the real prospect of a change of leadership or elections leading to a Labour victory.

    One European leader told The Times that officials were planning for both scenarios. “There is the great difficulty of the leadership in Great Britain, which is more and more fragile,” the leader said. “Britain is very weak and the weakness of Theresa May makes [Brexit] negotiations very difficult.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brussels-braced-for-fall-of-may-s-government-v28zlzvsp

    Do the EU not know how the FTP Act works?
    Yes it does. It also understands that the majority of this Parliament are pro EU. The object of the exercise is destabilisation, leading to a change of government. This weakens the UK position further in the negotiation, because the minority of Brexit supporting MPs might find themselves further isolated.

    Their gamble is that if a second referendum can be engineered, it can be met with an offer of 'associate membership'. They might even try (as the Fundamental Law seems to suggest), that the EEA will be rolled into that. This way the money will keep flowing to the EU, Germany will have its balance against the Southern states, and the ratchet can continue to turn until a UK gov like the Blair regime is elected again. at that point the submergence of the UK into the project can resume because the 'question has been answered'. There will never be another opportunity to leave the EU, no government will risk this process again.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    Glad to see OGH saying what I have said for the last year or more.

    Gove knew the consequences of ruining Boris's chances but he also knew his personal ambition s had to be subsumed to the far more important task of preventing a man becoming PM who was singularly unsuited to the role and would have been a disaster for the country.

    Does this mean Gove is himself a suitable candidate for PM? - No. He is undoubtedly one of the most able ministers we have had for decades as his time at Justice and DEFRA show. He masters his brief and then looks for genuine solutions to genuine problems.

    But that does not mean he is necessarily suited to the position of PM. I don't think he would be popular enough with the general public and his awkward, slightly geeky nature is not suited to the modern political system where presentation is everything and substance comes a very poor second.

    I also want him to stay long enough at DEFRA to make a real difference on matters such as soil depletion and the collapse of insect populations.

    I want him to stay at DEFRA too, for similar reasons. But on your other points, the electorate is in a restless mood, willing to consider people with characteristics that would previously have ruled them out. I wouldn't say that Corbyn is a master of presentation, but he's obviously sincere and dedicated, and many people in 2017 came to feel that perhaps those qualities deserved some weight.

    We could really do with some more detailed polling on the state of opinion. My gut feeling is that basic loyalty to Tories and Labour remains reasonably evenly divided (so headline VI is probably still only a modest Labour lead), but certainty to vote is now much higher among Labour voters: on the whole they think the party has got its act together, and I don't meet many Conservatives who feel the same.

    I don't see mass Con->Lab defections but I can well see many Tories sitting an election out if things continue in the current vein: many no longer feel that a Corbyn Government is an impossible nightmare, and giving a vote of confidence to the current Government feels... odd.
    I think you may be right. Tories need something to change their narrative or people will stay at home.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Any idea who will replace PP now she is on the backbenches - seeing the reaction to the New Def Secretary, it will be interesting to see who comes in - a woman from the Brexit campaign - cant think of many except Kate Hoey or Gisela Stewart, unfortunately they are Labour

    Priti also ticked the ethnic minority box, and the right wing box (separately from Brexit).
    It’s ticking the boxes which is the problem. The only box to be ticked should be “competence”.

    Anyway, isn’t the real story today the fact that we have until the end of the month to come up with the exit money - what we will pay for - so as to get trade talks underway? Otherwise the next opportunity is March and, by then, it will be too late to get anything in place by March 2019.
    There are some who will object to any amount, and given how weak the government is there has to be the possibility they don't agree an amount.
    Well, they have to otherwise nothing will move and we crash out. The cost to Britain in those circumstances will likely be very much higher than what it would cost to get trade talks underway.

    Someone in government must surely understand the concept of the cost benefit analysis. Surely?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Any idea who will replace PP now she is on the backbenches - seeing the reaction to the New Def Secretary, it will be interesting to see who comes in - a woman from the Brexit campaign - cant think of many except Kate Hoey or Gisela Stewart, unfortunately they are Labour

    Priti also ticked the ethnic minority box, and the right wing box (separately from Brexit).
    It’s ticking the boxes which is the problem. The only box to be ticked should be “competence”.
    Integrity, Honesty?

    I suppose 'cometence' covers it as in don't get caught
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,471

    Glad to see OGH saying what I have said for the last year or more.

    Gove knew the consequences of ruining Boris's chances but he also knew his personal ambition s had to be subsumed to the far more important task of preventing a man becoming PM who was singularly unsuited to the role and would have been a disaster for the country.

    Does this mean Gove is himself a suitable candidate for PM? - No. He is undoubtedly one of the most able ministers we have had for decades as his time at Justice and DEFRA show. He masters his brief and then looks for genuine solutions to genuine problems.

    But that does not mean he is necessarily suited to the position of PM. I don't think he would be popular enough with the general public and his awkward, slightly geeky nature is not suited to the modern political system where presentation is everything and substance comes a very poor second.

    I also want him to stay long enough at DEFRA to make a real difference on matters such as soil depletion and the collapse of insect populations.

    I want him to stay at DEFRA too, for similar reasons. But on your other points, the electorate is in a restless mood, willing to consider people with characteristics that would previously have ruled them out. I wouldn't say that Corbyn is a master of presentation, but he's obviously sincere and dedicated, and many people in 2017 came to feel that perhaps those qualities deserved some weight.

    We could really do with some more detailed polling on the state of opinion. My gut feeling is that basic loyalty to Tories and Labour remains reasonably evenly divided (so headline VI is probably still only a modest Labour lead), but certainty to vote is now much higher among Labour voters: on the whole they think the party has got its act together, and I don't meet many Conservatives who feel the same.

    I don't see mass Con->Lab defections but I can well see many Tories sitting an election out if things continue in the current vein: many no longer feel that a Corbyn Government is an impossible nightmare, and giving a vote of confidence to the current Government feels... odd.
    Corbyn needs to deal with the fact that he is a recruiting sergeant for the blues. Unless he does very few Tories will sit out. He has to deal with this.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,463
    It is the Spanish judiciary (not the govt) that locks people up, the Spanish crown was/is tied to the democratic transition and there are laws that protect the political system (and the crown). don't forget a UK citizen was locked up for remarks ref Gina Miller so we are not so different
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Any idea who will replace PP now she is on the backbenches - seeing the reaction to the New Def Secretary, it will be interesting to see who comes in - a woman from the Brexit campaign - cant think of many except Kate Hoey or Gisela Stewart, unfortunately they are Labour

    Priti also ticked the ethnic minority box, and the right wing box (separately from Brexit).
    It’s ticking the boxes which is the problem. The only box to be ticked should be “competence”.

    Anyway, isn’t the real story today the fact that we have until the end of the month to come up with the exit money - what we will pay for - so as to get trade talks underway? Otherwise the next opportunity is March and, by then, it will be too late to get anything in place by March 2019.
    There are some who will object to any amount, and given how weak the government is there has to be the possibility they don't agree an amount.
    Well, they have to otherwise nothing will move and we crash out. The cost to Britain in those circumstances will likely be very much higher than what it would cost to get trade talks underway.

    Someone in government must surely understand the concept of the cost benefit analysis. Surely?
    I'm sure they do, but may be so weak they are unwilling to take step to prevent it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    Alistair said:

    I believe the the Spanish police are suing over having their feelings hurt when they beat Catalonian voters as well.

    Prosecute the voters for criminal damage to the police officers' truncheons.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tnewtondunn: Nick Boles: “The government is like a bicycle - unless it’s moving forward, it falls over. At the moment it’s looking wobbly” #bbcr4today
This discussion has been closed.