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SystemSystem Posts: 12,587
edited November 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tory turmoil continues as another Cabinet exit appears to be in the offing

Yesterday morning the odds on the International Development Secretary, Priti Patel, being the next cabinet exit were 5/1 with TMay’s deputy, her long standing friend from Oxford, Damian Green the 6/4 favourite.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,748
    I’ve laid Patil as next to go.
    Probably a mistake - but seemed like May doesn’t want to pull the trigger.
    And there are other Cabinet members making a decent case to be fired!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,754
    rkrkrk said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Drip drip.....

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/928097623436820480

    To my mind, this is what really finishes her.

    It's that she hasn't come clean - to her own PM or the FCO - about the meetings she'd had. If everything had been disclosed back in August, when the story first broke, she'd probably have survived. But lying by omission, again and again and again, surely makes her position untenable.
    I suspect this story won’t have much traction with the public.
    Us talking to an ally unofficially probably doesn’t seem that newsworthy and there is a level of boredom around Arab Israeli conflict for most.
    I agree it won’t have much traction - it’s not as though she’s undermining a competent and effective Foreign Secretary.

    May however should sack her pour encourager les autres otherwise it’s open season on Foreign Policy which could give Boris just the excuse he is looking for to resign and blame the PM.

    She’s got to sack both.
    I’ve just laid Patil at 1.29 as next to go from Cabinet.

    Given the shortage of leavers to replace them with - it almost seems as though the simultaneous screw up is a great defence for Brexiteers. She should sack both but can’t.

    If Boris had apologised and done all he could to remedy I would have accepted that he misspoke.
    Patil’s actions are far more insidious as I see it.

    The other point is May would replace either with future leadership rivals.
    She may see Boris and Patil as weak enough to beat now.
    "Shortage of leavers": errr... how about Kwarteng, Stewart, or Rees Mogg?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,748
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Drip drip.....

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/928097623436820480

    To my mind, this is what really finishes her.

    It's that she hasn't come clean - to her own PM or the FCO - about the meetings she'd had. If everything had been disclosed back in August, when the story first broke, she'd probably have survived. But lying by omission, again and again and again, surely makes her position untenable.
    I suspect this story won’t have much traction with the public.
    Us talking to an ally unofficially probably doesn’t seem that newsworthy and there is a level of boredom around Arab Israeli conflict for most.
    I agree it won’t have much traction - it’s not as though she’s undermining a competent and effective Foreign Secretary.

    May however should sack her pour encourager les autres otherwise it’s open season on Foreign Policy which could give Boris just the excuse he is looking for to resign and blame the PM.

    She’s got to sack both.
    I’ve just laid Patil at 1.29 as next to go from Cabinet.

    Given the shortage of leavers to replace them with - it almost seems as though the simultaneous screw up is a great defence for Brexiteers. She should sack both but can’t.

    If Boris had apologised and done all he could to remedy I would have accepted that he misspoke.
    Patil’s actions are far more insidious as I see it.

    The other point is May would replace either with future leadership rivals.
    She may see Boris and Patil as weak enough to beat now.
    "Shortage of leavers": errr... how about Kwarteng, Stewart, or Rees Mogg?
    Stewart was Remain I think.
    Kwarteng isn’t even in govt so to immediately promote to Cabinet would presume annoy others. Same for Rees Mogg who might even decline a job like Dfid.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,518
    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Drip drip.....

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/928097623436820480

    To my mind, this is what really finishes her.

    It's that she hasn't come clean - to her own PM or the FCO - about the meetings she'd had. If everything had been disclosed back in August, when the story first broke, she'd probably have survived. But lying by omission, again and again and again, surely makes her position untenable.
    I suspect this story won’t have much traction with the public.
    Us talking to an ally unofficially probably doesn’t seem that newsworthy and there is a level of boredom around Arab Israeli conflict for most.
    I agree it won’t have much traction - it’s not as though she’s undermining a competent and effective Foreign Secretary.

    May however should sack her pour encourager les autres otherwise it’s open season on Foreign Policy which could give Boris just the excuse he is looking for to resign and blame the PM.

    She’s got to sack both.
    I’ve just laid Patil at 1.29 as next to go from Cabinet.

    Given the shortage of leavers to replace them with - it almost seems as though the simultaneous screw up is a great defence for Brexiteers. She should sack both but can’t.

    If Boris had apologised and done all he could to remedy I would have accepted that he misspoke.
    Patil’s actions are far more insidious as I see it.

    The other point is May would replace either with future leadership rivals.
    She may see Boris and Patil as weak enough to beat now.
    "Shortage of leavers": errr... how about Kwarteng, Stewart, or Rees Mogg?
    Stewart was Remain I think.
    Kwarteng isn’t even in govt so to immediately promote to Cabinet would presume annoy others. Same for Rees Mogg who might even decline a job like Dfid.
    Why would he do that ?
    No interest in government, or just too arrogant ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,061
    Priti and Boris are both surely toast now. Not betting on next out, as I reckon there will be a reshuffle after the budget, which is a fortnight away.

    That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    what about Andrea Leadsom?

    Surely her perceived knifing of Fallon has seen to that?

    Once again, May stands still and all around her potential replacements fall on each other.....
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,748
    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Drip drip.....

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/928097623436820480

    To my mind, this is what really finishes her.

    It's that she hasn't come clean - to her own PM or the FCO - about the meetings she'd had. If everything had been disclosed back in August, when the story first broke, she'd probably have survived. But lying by omission, again and again and again, surely makes her position untenable.
    I suspect this story won’t have much traction with the public.
    Us talking to an ally unofficially probably doesn’t seem that newsworthy and there is a level of boredom around Arab Israeli conflict for most.
    I agree it won’t have much traction - it’s not as though she’s undermining a competent and effective Foreign Secretary.

    May however should sack her pour encourager les autres otherwise it’s open season on Foreign Policy which could give Boris just the excuse he is looking for to resign and blame the PM.

    She’s got to sack both.
    I’ve just laid Patil at 1.29 as next to go from Cabinet.

    Given the shortage of leavers to replace them with - it almost seems as though the simultaneous screw up is a great defence for Brexiteers. She should sack both but can’t.

    If Boris had apologised and done all he could to remedy I would have accepted that he misspoke.
    Patil’s actions are far more insidious as I see it.

    The other point is May would replace either with future leadership rivals.
    She may see Boris and Patil as weak enough to beat now.
    "Shortage of leavers": errr... how about Kwarteng, Stewart, or Rees Mogg?
    Stewart was Remain I think.
    Kwarteng isn’t even in govt so to immediately promote to Cabinet would presume annoy others. Same for Rees Mogg who might even decline a job like Dfid.
    Why would he do that ?
    No interest in government, or just too arrogant ?
    A few reasons i can think of... just guessing though:
    1. Muzzles him on Brexit in theory. He’s disagreed with govt on approach and may want to push for a particular sort of deal.
    2. Dfid is a bad job for a Tory wanting to be leader.
    3. Policy issues with dfid supporting family planning around the world.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Sandpit said:

    That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

    Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,518
    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Drip drip.....

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/928097623436820480

    To my mind, this is what really finishes her.

    It's that she hasn't come clean - to her own PM or the FCO - about the meetings she'd had. If everything had been disclosed back in August, when the story first broke, she'd probably have survived. But lying by omission, again and again and again, surely makes her position untenable.
    I suspect this story won’t have much traction with the public.
    Us talking to an ally unofficially probably doesn’t seem that newsworthy and there is a level of boredom around Arab Israeli conflict for most.
    I agree it won’t have much traction - it’s not as though she’s undermining a competent and effective Foreign Secretary.

    May however should sack her pour encourager les autres otherwise it’s open season on Foreign Policy which could give Boris just the excuse he is looking for to resign and blame the PM.

    She’s got to sack both.
    I’ve just laid Patil at 1.29 as next to go from Cabinet.

    Given the shortage of leavers to replace them with - it almost seems as though the simultaneous screw up is a great defence for Brexiteers. She should sack both but can’t.

    If Boris had apologised and done all he could to remedy I would have accepted that he misspoke.
    Patil’s actions are far more insidious as I see it.

    The other point is May would replace either with future leadership rivals.
    She may see Boris and Patil as weak enough to beat now.
    "Shortage of leavers": errr... how about Kwarteng, Stewart, or Rees Mogg?
    Stewart was Remain I think.
    Kwarteng isn’t even in govt so to immediately promote to Cabinet would presume annoy others. Same for Rees Mogg who might even decline a job like Dfid.
    Why would he do that ?
    No interest in government, or just too arrogant ?
    A few reasons i can think of... just guessing though:
    1. Muzzles him on Brexit in theory. He’s disagreed with govt on approach and may want to push for a particular sort of deal.
    2. Dfid is a bad job for a Tory wanting to be leader.
    3. Policy issues with dfid supporting family planning around the world.
    So a combination of the two.
    You don't get to go into government on your own terms ....unless you expect, absurdly, to go straight to PM.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,518
    The EU continues to ratchet up negotiating pressure:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/07/brexit-eu-warns-uk-it-has-less-than-a-month-to-make-concessions

    We could quite conceivably end up with a no deal Brexit as each side wrongly expects the other to make concessions while each (wrongly) believing that they are behaving reasonably....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,061
    CarlottaVance said:

    Sandpit said:

    That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

    Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?
    If as reported in the Telegraph, she changed her flight to an earlier one at the last minute to avoid Parliament, then that’s yet more aggravating factors. If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/07/priti-patel-wanted-to-send-aid-money-to-israeli-army-no-10-confirms

    This is becoming like Trump and Russia. In her case, it's Israel.

    Why does the SoS for DfID need to meet Israelis so often ? Future election funds ? Did she start to believe some of the hype herself ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,061
    Nigelb said:

    The EU continues to ratchet up negotiating pressure:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/07/brexit-eu-warns-uk-it-has-less-than-a-month-to-make-concessions

    We could quite conceivably end up with a no deal Brexit as each side wrongly expects the other to make concessions while each (wrongly) believing that they are behaving reasonably....

    Well if no trade talks are forthcoming by Christmas, we need to just admit it’s not happening and prepare to leave the EU without a trade deal in March 2019. The clock running down is creating uncertainty among the business community, which is exactly what the EU want to push a one-sided fait accompli at the eleventh hour.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    This is becoming a government where Ministers do as they please. This happens when the head is weak.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,518
    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Sandpit said:

    That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

    Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?
    If as reported in the Telegraph, she changed her flight to an earlier one at the last minute to avoid Parliament, then that’s yet more aggravating factors. If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.
    A case for extraordinary rendition ?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,518
    The head of the NHS wants his Brexit cash:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41908302
    :smile:
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,646
    edited November 2017
    Sandpit said:

    If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.

    What's the point of that? A BZN-EBB-BZN flight is going to cost the tax payer over a hundred grand.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,754
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    The EU continues to ratchet up negotiating pressure:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/07/brexit-eu-warns-uk-it-has-less-than-a-month-to-make-concessions

    We could quite conceivably end up with a no deal Brexit as each side wrongly expects the other to make concessions while each (wrongly) believing that they are behaving reasonably....

    Well if no trade talks are forthcoming by Christmas, we need to just admit it’s not happening and prepare to leave the EU without a trade deal in March 2019. The clock running down is creating uncertainty among the business community, which is exactly what the EU want to push a one-sided fait accompli at the eleventh hour.
    We should have been preparing for No Deal, even in the event negotiations were going swimmingly.

    If there is an opposite to "talk softly but carry a big stick," it's us.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,061
    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    Nothing curious at all. The Saudi royal family exists to help the US-Israeli axis.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It doesn't sound as though there's much support for Ms Patel in Downing Street either now. The whole affair, however, has shown the spinelessness of Theresa May. She should have acted far more decisively.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,061
    edited November 2017
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.

    What's the point of that? A BZN-EBB-BZN flight is going to cost the tax payer over a hundred grand.
    The marginal cost will be less than that, and I’m sure the RAF can find an inventive way of turning it into a training flight of some sort. As you know we do these sort of missions all the time for diplomatic reasons.
    The damage that she can do to international relations if she goes off-piste abroad, is orders of magnitude more than the cost of flying her home. Bill her department for the cost if it’s that important, they can’t spend their whole budget anyway.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2017
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Sandpit said:

    That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

    Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?
    If as reported in the Telegraph, she changed her flight to an earlier one at the last minute to avoid Parliament, then that’s yet more aggravating factors. If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.
    A case for extraordinary rendition ?

    "Operation Entebbe"

    I'm sure she'd see the funny side.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Sandpit said:

    That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

    Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?
    If as reported in the Telegraph, she changed her flight to an earlier one at the last minute to avoid Parliament, then that’s yet more aggravating factors. If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.
    A Hercules (C130) is particularly uncomfortable, and noisy......
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,748
    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.

    But I don't understand why we would want to pick sides between Saudi and Iran.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.

    But I don't understand why we would want to pick sides between Saudi and Iran.
    He who pays the piper calls the tune.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,763
    I'll believe Patel's dismissal when I see it.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AlastairMeeks said:

    It doesn't sound as though there's much support for Ms Patel in Downing Street either now. The whole affair, however, has shown the spinelessness of Theresa May. She should have acted far more decisively.

    Does anyone believe that this is a government that could negotiate a piss up in a brewery, let alone the most significant foreign policy since 1973?

    We are a laughing stock.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,763
    Pong said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Sandpit said:

    That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

    Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?
    If as reported in the Telegraph, she changed her flight to an earlier one at the last minute to avoid Parliament, then that’s yet more aggravating factors. If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.
    A case for extraordinary rendition ?

    "Operation Entebbe"

    I'm sure she'd see the funny side.
    Wild Geese III.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,061
    edited November 2017
    OchEye said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Sandpit said:

    That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

    Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?
    If as reported in the Telegraph, she changed her flight to an earlier one at the last minute to avoid Parliament, then that’s yet more aggravating factors. If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.
    A Hercules (C130) is particularly uncomfortable, and noisy......
    ...and would need a tech stop or two on the way back. I like your thinking.

    You just know she’d be expecting the VIP Voyager, would be well worth sending a C130 just to see the look on her face. Especially when the Captain handed her a letter from the PM relieving her of her position, before throwing her in the back of the plane for a noisy 20-ish hour trip back to Northolt. Maybe they could do it unpressurised with everyone on O2, just to make it more fun as a training exercise. ;)
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    Casino_Royale said:

    I'll believe Patel's dismissal when I see it.

    If Priti isn't sacked today, the Maybot is a Zombie.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,315
    Casino_Royale said:

    I'll believe Patel's dismissal when I see it.

    If May doesn't dismiss her, she herself should go. You just cannot have ministers acting in this manner.

    It's a government of chaos. May needs to start getting a grip, and she can start by sacking Patel. Johnson too, probably, although I think that's less clear-cut.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,748
    AlastairMeeks said:

    It doesn't sound as though there's much support for Ms Patel in Downing Street either now. The whole affair, however, has shown the spinelessness of Theresa May. She should have acted far more decisively.

    To be fair - when she has acted decisively - calling an early GE, including a controversial social care policy, sacking Osborne and other Cameroons... it hasn't always ended well.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,316
    edited November 2017
    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    That’s a strange thing to say. I was only a child in 1946 but I can recall the sympathy for the Jews after the way they had been treated in Europe that was around a few years later. IIRC there wasn’t, initially, a lot of pro-Arab feeling.
    How the State of Israel has behaved since is a different matter.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,748
    JosiasJessop said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I'll believe Patel's dismissal when I see it.

    If May doesn't dismiss her, she herself should go. You just cannot have ministers acting in this manner.

    It's a government of chaos. May needs to start getting a grip, and she can start by sacking Patel. Johnson too, probably, although I think that's less clear-cut.
    Judging by how brazen her statement was... Patel doesn't feel like resigning.
    I expect when she does leave the Cabinet it will be to launch a leadership challenge.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    Weak and wobbly must surely act today.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: Sources say Priti Patel itinerary on Africa trip is now "changing."
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,763
    JosiasJessop said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I'll believe Patel's dismissal when I see it.

    If May doesn't dismiss her, she herself should go. You just cannot have ministers acting in this manner.

    It's a government of chaos. May needs to start getting a grip, and she can start by sacking Patel. Johnson too, probably, although I think that's less clear-cut.
    I think she's lost confidence in her decision making process and is now crippled by the fear of unintended consequences.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,905
    edited November 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    I’ve laid Patil as next to go.
    Probably a mistake - but seemed like May doesn’t want to pull the trigger.
    And there are other Cabinet members making a decent case to be fired!

    I genuinely don't see how Patel can't go. Conducting freelance and clandestine high level meetings with a foreign power. She has to go.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,763
    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,748
    Monksfield said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I’ve laid Patil as next to go.
    Probably a mistake - but seemed like May doesn’t want to pull the trigger.
    And there are other Cabinet members making a decent case to be fired!

    I genuinely don't see how Patel can't go. Conducting freelance and clandestine high level meetings with a foreign power. She has to go.
    I don't disagree. But that was all the case on Monday too when may opted not to sack her.
    Now it looks like even in her apology Patel lied (why!?) and that might be what does for her.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,061
    Casino_Royale said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I'll believe Patel's dismissal when I see it.

    If May doesn't dismiss her, she herself should go. You just cannot have ministers acting in this manner.

    It's a government of chaos. May needs to start getting a grip, and she can start by sacking Patel. Johnson too, probably, although I think that's less clear-cut.
    I think she's lost confidence in her decision making process and is now crippled by the fear of unintended consequences.
    That’s probably true, but Patel will have lost most if not all of her support in the last 24 hours. If Mrs May doesn’t act now she’s going to be in trouble herself.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,414
    Mike says May was wrong to carry on - yet imagine the mess the Tories and the country would be in now if a brand new PM - the third in rapid succession - were now embroiled in this harassment crisis. At least May's reputation doesn't have so far to sink, and she is actually well placed (as a sober female) to stay above it all. The idea of Boris trying to deal with it all makes me shiver.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    daodao said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
    KL is currently itching to join PB.

    Can moderators ban the H word quick.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,316
    daodao said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
    You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

    Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
    Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @bbclaurak: Patel already looked like she was on way out of the door late last night, revelations about more extra curricular meetings make that seem almost inevitable now

    @bbclaurak: And if May doesn’t sack her now it’s an ongoing sore that smacks of weakness
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    Amber Rudd would have dealt with all this shirt.

    She is in the wrong Constituency and doesn't own gumboots
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,763
    daodao said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
    You haven't answered the question.

    How do you propose the UK should have "snuffed out" the nascent Israeli state in 1946?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,316
    I’ve met Patel a few times. She tends to get angry if rattled/challenged. IME, anyway.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,905
    rkrkrk said:

    Monksfield said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I’ve laid Patil as next to go.
    Probably a mistake - but seemed like May doesn’t want to pull the trigger.
    And there are other Cabinet members making a decent case to be fired!

    I genuinely don't see how Patel can't go. Conducting freelance and clandestine high level meetings with a foreign power. She has to go.
    I don't disagree. But that was all the case on Monday too when may opted not to sack her.
    Now it looks like even in her apology Patel lied (why!?) and that might be what does for her.
    A good thread on why her position is completely untenable...

    https://mobile.twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/927856249269620736
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,930

    lol

    Bono "distressed" on tax dodging

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bono-tells-of-distress-after-paradise-papers-reveal-malta-venture-36300005.html

    you couldnt make it up
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
    You haven't answered the question.

    How do you propose the UK should have "snuffed out" the nascent Israeli state in 1946?
    We did try! by 1947 we had 100 000 troops and police there. 1 for every 5 Jewish people in Palestine.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    https://twitter.com/lebassett/status/928066321958490113
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,414
    edited November 2017
    OldKingCole said:

    daodao said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
    You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

    Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
    Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.
    There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Oh

    David Prescott, the son of former deputy Prime Minister John Prescott, was suspended “in the last few days”, according to the Daily Mirror.

    When asked about the circumstances around Mr Prescott’s suspension, a spokesman for Labour told the paper they would not "comment on staffing matters".

    However they added: “The party takes all complaints of sexual harassment, abuse and discrimination extremely seriously.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/90430/jeremy-corbyn-aide-david-prescott-suspended-amid
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,518
    rkrkrk said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I'll believe Patel's dismissal when I see it.

    If May doesn't dismiss her, she herself should go. You just cannot have ministers acting in this manner.

    It's a government of chaos. May needs to start getting a grip, and she can start by sacking Patel. Johnson too, probably, although I think that's less clear-cut.
    Judging by how brazen her statement was... Patel doesn't feel like resigning.
    I expect when she does leave the Cabinet it will be to launch a leadership challenge.
    Hahahahahahahaha.......
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,414
    Scott_P said:

    Oh

    David Prescott, the son of former deputy Prime Minister John Prescott, was suspended “in the last few days”, according to the Daily Mirror.

    When asked about the circumstances around Mr Prescott’s suspension, a spokesman for Labour told the paper they would not "comment on staffing matters".

    However they added: “The party takes all complaints of sexual harassment, abuse and discrimination extremely seriously.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/90430/jeremy-corbyn-aide-david-prescott-suspended-amid

    I am guessing this may relate to a story that has already seen some exposure.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,518
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Sources say Priti Patel itinerary on Africa trip is now "changing."

    She's claiming political asylum... defecting.. ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,518
    Casino_Royale said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I'll believe Patel's dismissal when I see it.

    If May doesn't dismiss her, she herself should go. You just cannot have ministers acting in this manner.

    It's a government of chaos. May needs to start getting a grip, and she can start by sacking Patel. Johnson too, probably, although I think that's less clear-cut.
    I think she's lost confidence in her decision making process and is now crippled by the fear of unintended consequences.
    Judging by the earlier Hinckley decision, she never had any confidence to lose.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/928162826514026496
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,316
    IanB2 said:

    OldKingCole said:

    daodao said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
    You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

    Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
    Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.
    There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.
    Agree.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,414
    Monksfield said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Monksfield said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I’ve laid Patil as next to go.
    Probably a mistake - but seemed like May doesn’t want to pull the trigger.
    And there are other Cabinet members making a decent case to be fired!

    I genuinely don't see how Patel can't go. Conducting freelance and clandestine high level meetings with a foreign power. She has to go.
    I don't disagree. But that was all the case on Monday too when may opted not to sack her.
    Now it looks like even in her apology Patel lied (why!?) and that might be what does for her.
    A good thread on why her position is completely untenable...

    https://mobile.twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/927856249269620736
    +1

    The fact that she must have gone "off grid" to make the arrangements is particularly telling.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/status/928164628810600448
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/928162826514026496

    Surely this is an issue:

    https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/927857443786326017
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/dpjhodges/status/928164889037811712
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/status/928164628810600448

    One of the many lovely things about visiting Africa is that there is little time change so little Jet lag.

    Nairobi airport has some quite good lounges too. One of my favourites.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,414
    IanB2 said:

    Monksfield said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Monksfield said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I’ve laid Patil as next to go.
    Probably a mistake - but seemed like May doesn’t want to pull the trigger.
    And there are other Cabinet members making a decent case to be fired!

    I genuinely don't see how Patel can't go. Conducting freelance and clandestine high level meetings with a foreign power. She has to go.
    I don't disagree. But that was all the case on Monday too when may opted not to sack her.
    Now it looks like even in her apology Patel lied (why!?) and that might be what does for her.
    A good thread on why her position is completely untenable...

    https://mobile.twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/927856249269620736
    +1

    The fact that she must have gone "off grid" to make the arrangements is particularly telling.
    It also sounds like in times past the punishment for Priti would have involved the Tower of London and a large crowd....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,414
    edited November 2017
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/status/928164628810600448

    One of the many lovely things about visiting Africa is that there is little time change so little Jet lag.

    Nairobi airport has some quite good lounges too. One of my favourites.
    I remember an hour's wait at Entebbe en route from Addis to Kigali. For some unknown reason Ethiopian airways 'clean' the planes on that route, which are empty at both ends, at Entebbe when full of passengers. In the middle of a tropical rainstorm, these women who were soaking wet came onto the plane to clean the floor, trying to drag their hoovers on a long lead along aisles 'ram packed' with people stretching their legs and with all sorts of bags and stuff on the floor. It was the most ridiculous carry on and the plane was probably dirtier after they had finished than before,
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    In the space of three days we have seen three prominent Brexit supporting cabinet ministers treat the institutions they claim to hold dear with absolute contempt. Is anyone really surprised? They think they can do whatever they want, say whatever they want and get away with it. That is the sovereignty they believe in.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,518
    IanB2 said:

    OldKingCole said:

    daodao said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
    You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

    Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
    Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.
    There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.
    The real missed opportunity is that we had neither the will nor the money properly to set up a state for the Jewish refugees, which would have involved agreements with surrounding territories, and compensation for land rather than expropriation.

    Both sides in the seventy year old conflict have legitimate claims, but the arguments haven't really changed in the decades since I can first remember them being debated.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    It doesn't sound as though there's much support for Ms Patel in Downing Street either now. The whole affair, however, has shown the spinelessness of Theresa May. She should have acted far more decisively.

    To be fair - when she has acted decisively - calling an early GE, including a controversial social care policy, sacking Osborne and other Cameroons... it hasn't always ended well.
    Whenever Theresa May has to make a big decision the default assumption must be that she will get it wrong
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,518
    MikeSmithson said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    It doesn't sound as though there's much support for Ms Patel in Downing Street either now. The whole affair, however, has shown the spinelessness of Theresa May. She should have acted far more decisively.

    To be fair - when she has acted decisively - calling an early GE, including a controversial social care policy, sacking Osborne and other Cameroons... it hasn't always ended well.
    Whenever Theresa May has to make a big decision the default assumption must be that she will get it wrong
    Only after putting it off.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,646
    Sandpit said:

    ng.

    You just know she’d be expecting the VIP Voyager, would be well worth sending a C130 just to see the look on her face. Especially when the Captain handed her a letter from the PM relieving her of her position, before throwing her in the back of the plane for a noisy 20-ish hour trip back to Northolt. Maybe they could do it unpressurised with everyone on O2, just to make it more fun as a training exercise. ;)

    The UK isn't (quite) yet a banana republic where that sort of shenanigans goes on. After Brexit, who knows...

    I once did BAH-RMS in the back of a KC-130 Tango. It seemed to take a very, very long time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,414
    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    OldKingCole said:

    daodao said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
    You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

    Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
    Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.
    There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.
    The real missed opportunity is that we had neither the will nor the money properly to set up a state for the Jewish refugees, which would have involved agreements with surrounding territories, and compensation for land rather than expropriation.

    Both sides in the seventy year old conflict have legitimate claims, but the arguments haven't really changed in the decades since I can first remember them being debated.
    Nor some of the techniques - it was for example the British that dreamed up the idea of demolishing the family home of Jewish terrorists.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    IanB2 said:

    OldKingCole said:

    daodao said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
    You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

    Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
    Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.
    There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.
    King David Hotel bombing, the Wikipedia article gives some idea of what was going on at the time
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    In other chutzpah news, Grimsby wants a special EU deal to help its fish industry:

    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/928166301956296704
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/charlottealter/status/928086721400537089
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,947
    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/928161663349641217
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,061
    Interestingly, the last flight of the day from Nairobi to London left NBO an hour ago. No more scheduled flights to Europe from there today.

    Maybe the RAF are picking her up?
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2017
    Nigelb said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    It doesn't sound as though there's much support for Ms Patel in Downing Street either now. The whole affair, however, has shown the spinelessness of Theresa May. She should have acted far more decisively.

    To be fair - when she has acted decisively - calling an early GE, including a controversial social care policy, sacking Osborne and other Cameroons... it hasn't always ended well.
    Whenever Theresa May has to make a big decision the default assumption must be that she will get it wrong
    Only after putting it off.
    The conservatives have got rather good at going on holiday and f*cking things up.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,947
    Have we been given any idea why Patel keeps having off-piste meetings with Israelis?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,414
    edited November 2017
    foxinsoxuk said:

    In other chutzpah news, Grimsby wants a special EU deal to help its fish industry:

    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/928166301956296704

    The West Country will want some of that...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,756
    edited November 2017
    Good morning, everyone.

    I was wondering what the site's view was on Boris' blunder. The media focus does seem to be on Patel, which is giving the Foreign Secretary some respite from what should be relentless condemnation. Is Patel's error in judgement genuinely worse than Boris'?

    Edited extra bit: Brazil, as usual, has qualifying and the race start at 4pm.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Boris is lucky.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,748
    edited November 2017
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    I was wondering what the site's view was on Boris' blunder. The media focus does seem to be on Patel, which is giving the Foreign Secretary some respite from what should be relentless condemnation. Is Patel's error in judgement genuinely worse than Boris'?

    To my mind - Patel's is much, much worse.
    Boris should apologise and work to remedy the situation.
    If unsuccessful he should consider his position.
    Patel should never come near a govt job again.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,414
    edited November 2017
    OchEye said:

    IanB2 said:

    OldKingCole said:

    daodao said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
    You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

    Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
    Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.
    There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.
    King David Hotel bombing, the Wikipedia article gives some idea of what was going on at the time
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
    And the soldier who was shot in plain sight in a busy street, ignored by the shoppers and left for dead, and the two who were kidnapped and subsequently found hanging from a tree. It was a nasty period and coming straight after six years of war, it isn't surprising that our will to stick it out and endure terrorism from the Jews wasn't there.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Sandpit said:

    OchEye said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Sandpit said:

    That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

    Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?
    If as reported in the Telegraph, she changed her flight to an earlier one at the last minute to avoid Parliament, then that’s yet more aggravating factors. If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.
    A Hercules (C130) is particularly uncomfortable, and noisy......
    ...and would need a tech stop or two on the way back. I like your thinking.

    You just know she’d be expecting the VIP Voyager, would be well worth sending a C130 just to see the look on her face. Especially when the Captain handed her a letter from the PM relieving her of her position, before throwing her in the back of the plane for a noisy 20-ish hour trip back to Northolt. Maybe they could do it unpressurised with everyone on O2, just to make it more fun as a training exercise. ;)
    Been many years since I've flown in one, are the toilet facilities now upgraded or still non existent, hmm, 20 hours.....
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    rottenborough said:

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/928161663349641217

    OMG Has someone hacked Tory Laura's account
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,967
    foxinsoxuk said:

    In other chutzpah news, Grimsby wants a special EU deal to help its fish industry:

    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/928166301956296704

    "Grimsby’s seafood processing industry"

    So not its fishing industry.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,414
    Jonathan said:

    Boris is lucky.

    For some strange and unmerited reason, he tends to be.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/status/928171079797035009
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,763
    IanB2 said:

    OldKingCole said:

    daodao said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    daodao said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Curiouser and curiouser:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

    The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

    A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!
    I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.
    Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.
    What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?
    Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.
    You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

    Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
    Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.
    There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.
    The Promise dramatises that very well. In fact, it was such a powerful drama that it led to me significantly qualifying my views on Israel/Palestine.

    The only way to have preserved the 1948 UN partition settlement would have been to impose it by force. That would have required British troops (in even greater numbers that 100k) keeping both sides apart and suffering significant casualties from both for years, with no guarantee of success, even if they'd stayed another 20 years.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,061
    Jonathan said:

    Boris is lucky.

    And he has a chance to redeem himself by getting on a plane to Tehran, delivering a sincere apology and coming back with the prisoner. Still doesn’t mean he won’t get reshuffled to party chairman or some other minor position though.

    Patel looks increasingly guilty of insubordination, and is pretty much toast if Mrs May wants to keep her own job.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/status/928171079797035009

    Has weak and wobbly asked permission to sack her.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tlg86 said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    In other chutzpah news, Grimsby wants a special EU deal to help its fish industry:

    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/928166301956296704

    "Grimsby’s seafood processing industry"

    So not its fishing industry.
    Yeah, the two are not related at all.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @skysarahjane: #BreakingNews @skynews understands @patel4witham is returning to London from Africa trip to speak to @theresa_may following latest revelations of secret meetings with Israeli officials
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/928171079797035009
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