politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tory turmoil continues as another Cabinet exit appears to

I’ve laid Patil as next to go.
Probably a mistake - but seemed like May doesn’t want to pull the trigger.
And there are other Cabinet members making a decent case to be fired!

rcs1000 said:

rkrkrk said:

CarlottaVance said:

rkrkrk said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Drip drip.....

https://twitter.com/skynews/status/928097623436820480

To my mind, this is what really finishes her.

It's that she hasn't come clean - to her own PM or the FCO - about the meetings she'd had. If everything had been disclosed back in August, when the story first broke, she'd probably have survived. But lying by omission, again and again and again, surely makes her position untenable.

I suspect this story won’t have much traction with the public.
Us talking to an ally unofficially probably doesn’t seem that newsworthy and there is a level of boredom around Arab Israeli conflict for most.

I agree it won’t have much traction - it’s not as though she’s undermining a competent and effective Foreign Secretary.

May however should sack her pour encourager les autres otherwise it’s open season on Foreign Policy which could give Boris just the excuse he is looking for to resign and blame the PM.

She’s got to sack both.

I’ve just laid Patil at 1.29 as next to go from Cabinet.

Given the shortage of leavers to replace them with - it almost seems as though the simultaneous screw up is a great defence for Brexiteers. She should sack both but can’t.

If Boris had apologised and done all he could to remedy I would have accepted that he misspoke.
Patil’s actions are far more insidious as I see it.

The other point is May would replace either with future leadership rivals.
She may see Boris and Patil as weak enough to beat now.

"Shortage of leavers": errr... how about Kwarteng, Stewart, or Rees Mogg?

Stewart was Remain I think.
Kwarteng isn’t even in govt so to immediately promote to Cabinet would presume annoy others. Same for Rees Mogg who might even decline a job like Dfid.

Priti and Boris are both surely toast now. Not betting on next out, as I reckon there will be a reshuffle after the budget, which is a fortnight away.

That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

Nigelb said:

rkrkrk said:

rcs1000 said:

rkrkrk said:

CarlottaVance said:

rkrkrk said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Drip drip.....

https://twitter.com/skynews/status/928097623436820480

To my mind, this is what really finishes her.

It's that she hasn't come clean - to her own PM or the FCO - about the meetings she'd had. If everything had been disclosed back in August, when the story first broke, she'd probably have survived. But lying by omission, again and again and again, surely makes her position untenable.

I suspect this story won’t have much traction with the public.
Us talking to an ally unofficially probably doesn’t seem that newsworthy and there is a level of boredom around Arab Israeli conflict for most.

I agree it won’t have much traction - it’s not as though she’s undermining a competent and effective Foreign Secretary.

May however should sack her pour encourager les autres otherwise it’s open season on Foreign Policy which could give Boris just the excuse he is looking for to resign and blame the PM.

She’s got to sack both.

I’ve just laid Patil at 1.29 as next to go from Cabinet.

Given the shortage of leavers to replace them with - it almost seems as though the simultaneous screw up is a great defence for Brexiteers. She should sack both but can’t.

If Boris had apologised and done all he could to remedy I would have accepted that he misspoke.
Patil’s actions are far more insidious as I see it.

The other point is May would replace either with future leadership rivals.
She may see Boris and Patil as weak enough to beat now.

"Shortage of leavers": errr... how about Kwarteng, Stewart, or Rees Mogg?

Stewart was Remain I think.
Kwarteng isn’t even in govt so to immediately promote to Cabinet would presume annoy others. Same for Rees Mogg who might even decline a job like Dfid.

Why would he do that ?
No interest in government, or just too arrogant ?

A few reasons i can think of... just guessing though:
1. Muzzles him on Brexit in theory. He’s disagreed with govt on approach and may want to push for a particular sort of deal.
2. Dfid is a bad job for a Tory wanting to be leader.
3. Policy issues with dfid supporting family planning around the world.

rkrkrk said:

Nigelb said:

rkrkrk said:

rcs1000 said:

rkrkrk said:

CarlottaVance said:

rkrkrk said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Drip drip.....

https://twitter.com/skynews/status/928097623436820480

To my mind, this is what really finishes her.

It's that she hasn't come clean - to her own PM or the FCO - about the meetings she'd had. If everything had been disclosed back in August, when the story first broke, she'd probably have survived. But lying by omission, again and again and again, surely makes her position untenable.

I suspect this story won’t have much traction with the public.
Us talking to an ally unofficially probably doesn’t seem that newsworthy and there is a level of boredom around Arab Israeli conflict for most.

I agree it won’t have much traction - it’s not as though she’s undermining a competent and effective Foreign Secretary.

May however should sack her pour encourager les autres otherwise it’s open season on Foreign Policy which could give Boris just the excuse he is looking for to resign and blame the PM.

She’s got to sack both.

I’ve just laid Patil at 1.29 as next to go from Cabinet.

Given the shortage of leavers to replace them with - it almost seems as though the simultaneous screw up is a great defence for Brexiteers. She should sack both but can’t.

If Boris had apologised and done all he could to remedy I would have accepted that he misspoke.
Patil’s actions are far more insidious as I see it.

The other point is May would replace either with future leadership rivals.
She may see Boris and Patil as weak enough to beat now.

"Shortage of leavers": errr... how about Kwarteng, Stewart, or Rees Mogg?

Stewart was Remain I think.
Kwarteng isn’t even in govt so to immediately promote to Cabinet would presume annoy others. Same for Rees Mogg who might even decline a job like Dfid.

Why would he do that ?
No interest in government, or just too arrogant ?

A few reasons i can think of... just guessing though:
1. Muzzles him on Brexit in theory. He’s disagreed with govt on approach and may want to push for a particular sort of deal.
2. Dfid is a bad job for a Tory wanting to be leader.
3. Policy issues with dfid supporting family planning around the world.

So a combination of the two.
You don't get to go into government on your own terms ....unless you expect, absurdly, to go straight to PM.

CarlottaVance said:

Sandpit said:

That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?

If as reported in the Telegraph, she changed her flight to an earlier one at the last minute to avoid Parliament, then that’s yet more aggravating factors. If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.

Nigelb said:

The EU continues to ratchet up negotiating pressure:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/07/brexit-eu-warns-uk-it-has-less-than-a-month-to-make-concessions

We could quite conceivably end up with a no deal Brexit as each side wrongly expects the other to make concessions while each (wrongly) believing that they are behaving reasonably....

Well if no trade talks are forthcoming by Christmas, we need to just admit it’s not happening and prepare to leave the EU without a trade deal in March 2019. The clock running down is creating uncertainty among the business community, which is exactly what the EU want to push a one-sided fait accompli at the eleventh hour.

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Sandpit said:

That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?

If as reported in the Telegraph, she changed her flight to an earlier one at the last minute to avoid Parliament, then that’s yet more aggravating factors. If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.

A case for extraordinary rendition ?

Curiouser and curiouser:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

Sandpit said:

Nigelb said:

The EU continues to ratchet up negotiating pressure:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/07/brexit-eu-warns-uk-it-has-less-than-a-month-to-make-concessions

We could quite conceivably end up with a no deal Brexit as each side wrongly expects the other to make concessions while each (wrongly) believing that they are behaving reasonably....

Well if no trade talks are forthcoming by Christmas, we need to just admit it’s not happening and prepare to leave the EU without a trade deal in March 2019. The clock running down is creating uncertainty among the business community, which is exactly what the EU want to push a one-sided fait accompli at the eleventh hour.

We should have been preparing for No Deal, even in the event negotiations were going swimmingly.

If there is an opposite to "talk softly but carry a big stick," it's us.

Dura_Ace said:

Sandpit said:

If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.

What's the point of that? A BZN-EBB-BZN flight is going to cost the tax payer over a hundred grand.

The marginal cost will be less than that, and I’m sure the RAF can find an inventive way of turning it into a training flight of some sort. As you know we do these sort of missions all the time for diplomatic reasons.
The damage that she can do to international relations if she goes off-piste abroad, is orders of magnitude more than the cost of flying her home. Bill her department for the cost if it’s that important, they can’t spend their whole budget anyway.

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Sandpit said:

That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?

If as reported in the Telegraph, she changed her flight to an earlier one at the last minute to avoid Parliament, then that’s yet more aggravating factors. If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.

A Hercules (C130) is particularly uncomfortable, and noisy......

AlastairMeeks said:

It doesn't sound as though there's much support for Ms Patel in Downing Street either now. The whole affair, however, has shown the spinelessness of Theresa May. She should have acted far more decisively.

Does anyone believe that this is a government that could negotiate a piss up in a brewery, let alone the most significant foreign policy since 1973?

We are a laughing stock.

OchEye said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Sandpit said:

That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that the government sent a plane to Uganda to collect Ms Patel and bring her back to London. If I were her boss I wouldn’t trust her to meet with anyone.

Patel seems very keen to do her own travel arrangements - skipping out of Dodge on an earlier flight than everyone else yesterday....I wonder if she’s got extra meetings laid on?

If as reported in the Telegraph, she changed her flight to an earlier one at the last minute to avoid Parliament, then that’s yet more aggravating factors. If I were Mrs May I’d send the RAF to pick her up - and not the nice plane they fitted out for ministerial travel either.

A Hercules (C130) is particularly uncomfortable, and noisy......

...and would need a tech stop or two on the way back. I like your thinking.

You just know she’d be expecting the VIP Voyager, would be well worth sending a C130 just to see the look on her face. Especially when the Captain handed her a letter from the PM relieving her of her position, before throwing her in the back of the plane for a noisy 20-ish hour trip back to Northolt. Maybe they could do it unpressurised with everyone on O2, just to make it more fun as a training exercise.

AlastairMeeks said:

It doesn't sound as though there's much support for Ms Patel in Downing Street either now. The whole affair, however, has shown the spinelessness of Theresa May. She should have acted far more decisively.

To be fair - when she has acted decisively - calling an early GE, including a controversial social care policy, sacking Osborne and other Cameroons... it hasn't always ended well.

JosiasJessop said:

Casino_Royale said:

I'll believe Patel's dismissal when I see it.

If May doesn't dismiss her, she herself should go. You just cannot have ministers acting in this manner.

It's a government of chaos. May needs to start getting a grip, and she can start by sacking Patel. Johnson too, probably, although I think that's less clear-cut.

Judging by how brazen her statement was... Patel doesn't feel like resigning.
I expect when she does leave the Cabinet it will be to launch a leadership challenge.

@BBCNormanS: Sources say Priti Patel itinerary on Africa trip is now "changing."

rkrkrk said:

I’ve laid Patil as next to go.
Probably a mistake - but seemed like May doesn’t want to pull the trigger.
And there are other Cabinet members making a decent case to be fired!

I genuinely don't see how Patel can't go. Conducting freelance and clandestine high level meetings with a foreign power. She has to go.

Monksfield said:

rkrkrk said:

I’ve laid Patil as next to go.
Probably a mistake - but seemed like May doesn’t want to pull the trigger.
And there are other Cabinet members making a decent case to be fired!

I genuinely don't see how Patel can't go. Conducting freelance and clandestine high level meetings with a foreign power. She has to go.

I don't disagree. But that was all the case on Monday too when may opted not to sack her.
Now it looks like even in her apology Patel lied (why!?) and that might be what does for her.

daodao said:

Casino_Royale said:

daodao said:

rkrkrk said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Curiouser and curiouser:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!

I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.

Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.

What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?

Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.

KL is currently itching to join PB.

Can moderators ban the H word quick.

@bbclaurak: Patel already looked like she was on way out of the door late last night, revelations about more extra curricular meetings make that seem almost inevitable now

@bbclaurak: And if May doesn’t sack her now it’s an ongoing sore that smacks of weakness

daodao said:

Casino_Royale said:

daodao said:

rkrkrk said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Curiouser and curiouser:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!

I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.

Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.

What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?

Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.

You haven't answered the question.

How do you propose the UK should have "snuffed out" the nascent Israeli state in 1946?

rkrkrk said:

Monksfield said:

rkrkrk said:

I’ve laid Patil as next to go.
Probably a mistake - but seemed like May doesn’t want to pull the trigger.
And there are other Cabinet members making a decent case to be fired!

I genuinely don't see how Patel can't go. Conducting freelance and clandestine high level meetings with a foreign power. She has to go.

I don't disagree. But that was all the case on Monday too when may opted not to sack her.
Now it looks like even in her apology Patel lied (why!?) and that might be what does for her.

A good thread on why her position is completely untenable...

https://mobile.twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/927856249269620736

Casino_Royale said:

daodao said:

Casino_Royale said:

daodao said:

rkrkrk said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Curiouser and curiouser:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!

I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.

Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.

What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?

Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.

You haven't answered the question.

How do you propose the UK should have "snuffed out" the nascent Israeli state in 1946?

We did try! by 1947 we had 100 000 troops and police there. 1 for every 5 Jewish people in Palestine.

OldKingCole said:

daodao said:

Casino_Royale said:

daodao said:

rkrkrk said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Curiouser and curiouser:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!

I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.

Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.

What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?

Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.

You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.

There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.

rkrkrk said:

JosiasJessop said:

Casino_Royale said:

I'll believe Patel's dismissal when I see it.

If May doesn't dismiss her, she herself should go. You just cannot have ministers acting in this manner.

It's a government of chaos. May needs to start getting a grip, and she can start by sacking Patel. Johnson too, probably, although I think that's less clear-cut.

Judging by how brazen her statement was... Patel doesn't feel like resigning.
I expect when she does leave the Cabinet it will be to launch a leadership challenge.

Hahahahahahahaha.......

Scott_P said:

@BBCNormanS: Sources say Priti Patel itinerary on Africa trip is now "changing."

She's claiming political asylum... defecting.. ?

https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/928162826514026496

Monksfield said:

rkrkrk said:

Monksfield said:

rkrkrk said:

I’ve laid Patil as next to go.
Probably a mistake - but seemed like May doesn’t want to pull the trigger.
And there are other Cabinet members making a decent case to be fired!

I genuinely don't see how Patel can't go. Conducting freelance and clandestine high level meetings with a foreign power. She has to go.

I don't disagree. But that was all the case on Monday too when may opted not to sack her.
Now it looks like even in her apology Patel lied (why!?) and that might be what does for her.

A good thread on why her position is completely untenable...

https://mobile.twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/927856249269620736

+1

The fact that she must have gone "off grid" to make the arrangements is particularly telling.

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/928162826514026496

Surely this is an issue:

https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/927857443786326017

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/status/928164628810600448

One of the many lovely things about visiting Africa is that there is little time change so little Jet lag.

Nairobi airport has some quite good lounges too. One of my favourites.

foxinsoxuk said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/status/928164628810600448

One of the many lovely things about visiting Africa is that there is little time change so little Jet lag.

Nairobi airport has some quite good lounges too. One of my favourites.

I remember an hour's wait at Entebbe en route from Addis to Kigali. For some unknown reason Ethiopian airways 'clean' the planes on that route, which are empty at both ends, at Entebbe when full of passengers. In the middle of a tropical rainstorm, these women who were soaking wet came onto the plane to clean the floor, trying to drag their hoovers on a long lead along aisles 'ram packed' with people stretching their legs and with all sorts of bags and stuff on the floor. It was the most ridiculous carry on and the plane was probably dirtier after they had finished than before,

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

daodao said:

Casino_Royale said:

daodao said:

rkrkrk said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Curiouser and curiouser:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!

I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.

Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.

What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?

Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.

You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.

There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.

The real missed opportunity is that we had neither the will nor the money properly to set up a state for the Jewish refugees, which would have involved agreements with surrounding territories, and compensation for land rather than expropriation.

Both sides in the seventy year old conflict have legitimate claims, but the arguments haven't really changed in the decades since I can first remember them being debated.

MikeSmithson said:

rkrkrk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It doesn't sound as though there's much support for Ms Patel in Downing Street either now. The whole affair, however, has shown the spinelessness of Theresa May. She should have acted far more decisively.

To be fair - when she has acted decisively - calling an early GE, including a controversial social care policy, sacking Osborne and other Cameroons... it hasn't always ended well.

Whenever Theresa May has to make a big decision the default assumption must be that she will get it wrong

Only after putting it off.

Nigelb said:

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

daodao said:

Casino_Royale said:

daodao said:

rkrkrk said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Curiouser and curiouser:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!

I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.

Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.

What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?

Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.

You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.

There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.

The real missed opportunity is that we had neither the will nor the money properly to set up a state for the Jewish refugees, which would have involved agreements with surrounding territories, and compensation for land rather than expropriation.

Both sides in the seventy year old conflict have legitimate claims, but the arguments haven't really changed in the decades since I can first remember them being debated.

Nor some of the techniques - it was for example the British that dreamed up the idea of demolishing the family home of Jewish terrorists.

In other chutzpah news, Grimsby wants a special EU deal to help its fish industry:

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/928166301956296704

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/928161663349641217

Nigelb said:

MikeSmithson said:

rkrkrk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It doesn't sound as though there's much support for Ms Patel in Downing Street either now. The whole affair, however, has shown the spinelessness of Theresa May. She should have acted far more decisively.

To be fair - when she has acted decisively - calling an early GE, including a controversial social care policy, sacking Osborne and other Cameroons... it hasn't always ended well.

Whenever Theresa May has to make a big decision the default assumption must be that she will get it wrong

Only after putting it off.

The conservatives have got rather good at going on holiday and f*cking things up.

foxinsoxuk said:

In other chutzpah news, Grimsby wants a special EU deal to help its fish industry:

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/928166301956296704

The West Country will want some of that...

Boris is lucky.

OchEye said:

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

daodao said:

Casino_Royale said:

daodao said:

rkrkrk said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Curiouser and curiouser:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!

I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.

Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.

What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?

Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.

You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.

There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.

King David Hotel bombing, the Wikipedia article gives some idea of what was going on at the time
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

And the soldier who was shot in plain sight in a busy street, ignored by the shoppers and left for dead, and the two who were kidnapped and subsequently found hanging from a tree. It was a nasty period and coming straight after six years of war, it isn't surprising that our will to stick it out and endure terrorism from the Jews wasn't there.

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/928161663349641217

OMG Has someone hacked Tory Laura's account

Jonathan said:

Boris is lucky.

For some strange and unmerited reason, he tends to be.

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

daodao said:

Casino_Royale said:

daodao said:

rkrkrk said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Curiouser and curiouser:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-07/leaked-secret-israeli-cable-confirms-israeli-saudi-coordination-lebanon

The common enemy is Iran. Yemeni rebels, Qatar and now Lebanon, all supported by Iran.

A little worrying, living as I am next door to all this!

I can definitely understand being generally pro Israel in the region.

Britain had the opportunity and justification to snuff out the nascent Zionist state in 1946, but didn't bite the bullet. The consequences of not doing so are there for all to see.

What would you have done? Deport all the Jews back to Europe? Imprison them? Or cleanse them?

Britain did detain many "illegal" Jewish immigrants, in Cyprus and elsewhere, and deport some back to Europe, but it was in a parlous state after the end of WW2 and incapable of decisive action in the overseas sphere - witness the disastrous end to the Dominion of India. There was a battle in the UK government between Bevin and those more sympathetic to Zionism.

You’re right in your last sentence, but, as I say, my youthful memory is that there was a lot of public support for Israel.

Background hint; my parents were Telegraph readers, so that was where I started reading about politics.
Didn’t start reading the Daily Worker until about 1953/4.

There was also a lot of support for the nascent Israelis on the ground, because of what many in the army had seen and experienced in Germany. This attitude started to change with the troops' experience there (particularly some brutal Jewish terrorist attacks) but by then we were on our way to pulling out - as you say, the will to stay on the ground and impose some sort of lasting solution wasn't there. With hindsight it might have been better had we tried, or quite possibly we would simply have been delaying the inevitable and prolonging our agony.

The Promise dramatises that very well. In fact, it was such a powerful drama that it led to me significantly qualifying my views on Israel/Palestine.

The only way to have preserved the 1948 UN partition settlement would have been to impose it by force. That would have required British troops (in even greater numbers that 100k) keeping both sides apart and suffering significant casualties from both for years, with no guarantee of success, even if they'd stayed another 20 years.

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/status/928171079797035009

Has weak and wobbly asked permission to sack her.

@skysarahjane: #BreakingNews @skynews understands @patel4witham is returning to London from Africa trip to speak to @theresa_may following latest revelations of secret meetings with Israeli officials