Scott_P said:

@faisalislam: Tory MP @JohnStevensonMP in the backbench EEA debate said UK should join Efta which would “turbocharge Efta”

@faisalislam: @JohnStevensonMP Stevenson says that “damage is already happening” -£155m tyre factory due to be built in his constituency postponed and “may never happen”

HYUFD said:

The Tories are still in government and we are beginning talks on a FTA with the EU by the end of the year.

surbiton said:

HYUFD said:

surbiton said:

HYUFD said:

anothernick said:

SeanT said:

Sean_F said:

anothernick said:

NickPalmer said:

MikeSmithson said:

HYUFD said:

The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.

How can you make that assertion?

.

I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.

The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.

Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.

But Corbyn now EU.

Corbyn is both still committed to Brexit and to leaving the single market, hardly the sign of a passionate Remainer.

Corbyn.

Rubbi.

You know fuck all.

"Labour would seek a transitional deal that maintains the same basic terms that we currently enjoy with the EU. That means we would seek to remain in a customs union with the EU and within the single market during this period. It means we would abide by the common rules of both." - Fully agreed shadow cabinet policy.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/26/keir-starmer-no-constructive-ambiguity-brexit-cliff-edge-labour-will-avoid-transitional-deal

surbiton said:

Brexit cheer for Christmas.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/06/slump-uk-car-sales-deepens-12-percent-fall

SeanT said:

DavidL said:

Just caught up with @cyclefree’s last thread. LOL. Spot on. Whatever we all did in our previous lives, I seriously hope we enjoyed it. Surely we deserve better than this? Applies to this thread too of course.

Wherefrom this sense that we are at the End of Days?

...

Meanwhile the autumn sun is shining, I have just got married to a beautiful woman half my age, and England have something like a decent football team.

WTF. Shut up everyone.

FrancisUrquhart said:

DavidL said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Lol, Dermot Desmond being chased by the BBC about tax avoidance. The next day he fired off a letter to the reporter beginning with 'Are you a Rangers supporter?'.

Generally the narrative seems to have moved on from 'There's nothing crooked about using tax avoidance vehicles' to 'I am not avoiding tax by using these tax avoidance vehicles'.

Inevitable. Most people will see it as crooked even if it is legal, so it's a losing fight to try to argue the point.

And they would be completely right by the way. Even if it’s legal what the hell is Lewis Hamilton thinking about in trying to save the VAT on his private jet? That’s his knighthood gone for a burton. Silly man.

As for those scumbags working for the BBC I don’t know whether to be more annoyed that the BBC paid them £2m of taxpayers money for that brain dead crud or that they thought they should save the tax on it rather than being incredibly grateful to much much poorer licence payers who will never see that kind of money in their entire lives.

This is Lewis "I am moved to Switzerland to minimize my tax bill" Hamilton. Given that, why wouldn't he also do the same on his jet.

And Mrs Brown's Boys cast weren't trying to avoid tax, oh no no, they were simply trying to setup an arrangement so they could decide when they paid it...but the BBC are so used to paying talent via all sorts of tax efficient vehicles, sending payment to Mauritius wouldn't ever send any sort of red flag.

justin124 said:

DavidL said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Lol, Dermot Desmond being chased by the BBC about tax avoidance. The next day he fired off a letter to the reporter beginning with 'Are you a Rangers supporter?'.

Generally the narrative seems to have moved on from 'There's nothing crooked about using tax avoidance vehicles' to 'I am not avoiding tax by using these tax avoidance vehicles'.

Inevitable. Most people will see it as crooked even if it is legal, so it's a losing fight to try to argue the point.

And they would be completely right by the way. Even if it’s legal what the hell is Lewis Hamilton thinking about in trying to save the VAT on his private jet? That’s his knighthood gone for a burton. Silly man.

As for those scumbags working for the BBC I don’t know whether to be more annoyed that the BBC paid them £2m of taxpayers money for that brain dead crud or that they thought they should save the tax on it rather than being incredibly grateful to much much poorer licence payers who will never see that kind of money in their entire lives.

I have always thought of Lewis Hamilton and his ilk as scumbags and the country owes him no loyalty at all. Very sorry that he won the World Championship.

SeanT said:

DavidL said:

Just caught up with @cyclefree’s last thread. LOL. Spot on. Whatever we all did in our previous lives, I seriously hope we enjoyed it. Surely we deserve better than this? Applies to this thread too of course.

Wherefrom this sense that we are at the End of Days?

It is bizarre. Yes UK politics is simultaneously chaotic and repetitive, at the moment (thanks mainly to Brexit), but the world as a whole, indeed poor old Britain, is hardly in a bad place, when you compare things to the past.

War is rarer than ever. No major nation is immersed in combat. ISIS have been defeated. Jihadism is a problem but compared to, say, Nazism or communism, as a global threat and human menace it is picayune.

Trump is a predictable idiot as prez - but he's not blowing up the world, he's just a symptom of American relative decline. Global growth is bowling along very nicely. China as deputy world policeman and next hegemonic superpower is actually not that bad a prospect (I've just been to Ethiopia where China is busily building railways and hospitals, and the locals are very grateful).

Meanwhile climate change is happening, but it ain't killing millions and it is very arguable a warmer world is better. Peak Oil turned out to be a myth, suddenly it turns out we have endless new unconventional gas and oil reserves, even as renewables come on tap and become properly competitive.

Soon we will say goodbye to the nastiness of the internal combustion engine, as electric cars, and driverless cars, take over. This will be a huge boon to the planetary environment, and a vast improvement in life opportunities for the old, blind, disabled, immobile.

Read across for drones, AI, Aug Reality, 5G, etc.

So the world is doing just fine.

How about Brexity old Blighty? We have the lowest unemployment on recent record, and our apparently wrecked and Brexited economy will probably grow faster than France or Italy this year, according to the IMF. A a supposedly crashed property market is just slowing down, but still growing. UBS have just announced that post Brexit they won't have to move 1000 jobs from London, maybe 250 or less. 5%. 1 in 20. Pff.

Meanwhile the autumn sun is shining, I have just got married to a beautiful woman half my age, and England have something like a decent football team.

WTF. Shut up everyone.

HYUFD said:

AndyJS said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

anothernick said:

NickPalmer said:

MikeSmithson said:

HYUFD said:

The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.

How can you make that assertion?

I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.

In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.

.

You forget they do not have to all vote Tory to cost Labour.

A Labour Leave voter who goes to swing to Labour from the LDs, Greens, UKIP and the SNP than there was from the Tories.

In Greater London, I think quite a few former Conservatives switched because of Brexit. Outside London, not so many (though note Oxford West, Bath, Reading East). In the Midlands, quite a few former Labour switched over Brexit.

The only area there was a real switch to Labour from the Tories over Brexit was London but even there the Tories held seats like Putney, Finchley and Golders Green and Bromley which voted Remain, outside of London Labour won more Leave seats from the Tories than it did Remain seats.

Oxford West and Abingdon and Bath were both won by the LDs from the Tories, not by Labour.

The Tories did indeed pick up 4 Leave seats in the Midlands from Labour but that was far fewer than they were expecting to, especially given they lost 2 Midlands Leave seats to Labour.

Labour gained the only seat in the West Midlands to vote against Brexit in Warwick and Leamington.

They also gained Lincoln and High Peak in the East Midlands which voted Leave, so 2/3 of their gains in the Midlands were in Leave seats.

DavidL said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Lol, Dermot Desmond being chased by the BBC about tax avoidance. The next day he fired off a letter to the reporter beginning with 'Are you a Rangers supporter?'.

Generally the narrative seems to have moved on from 'There's nothing crooked about using tax avoidance vehicles' to 'I am not avoiding tax by using these tax avoidance vehicles'.

Inevitable. Most people will see it as crooked even if it is legal, so it's a losing fight to try to argue the point.

And they would be completely right by the way. Even if it’s legal what the hell is Lewis Hamilton thinking about in trying to save the VAT on his private jet? That’s his knighthood gone for a burton. Silly man.

As for those scumbags working for the BBC I don’t know whether to be more annoyed that the BBC paid them £2m of taxpayers money for that brain dead crud or that they thought they should save the tax on it rather than being incredibly grateful to much much poorer licence payers who will never see that kind of money in their entire lives.

SeanT said:

DavidL said:

Just caught up with @cyclefree’s last thread. LOL. Spot on. Whatever we all did in our previous lives, I seriously hope we enjoyed it. Surely we deserve better than this? Applies to this thread too of course.

Wherefrom this sense that we are at the End of Days?

It is bizarre. Yes UK politics is simultaneously chaotic and repetitive, at the moment (thanks mainly to Brexit), but the world as a whole, indeed poor old Britain, is hardly in a bad place, when you compare things to the past.

War is rarer than ever. No major nation is immersed in combat. ISIS have been defeated. Jihadism is a problem but compared to, say, Nazism or communism, as a global threat and human menace it is picayune.

Trump is a predictable idiot as prez - but he's not blowing up the world, he's just a symptom of American relative decline. Global growth is bowling along very nicely. China as deputy world policeman and next hegemonic superpower is actually not that bad a prospect (I've just been to Ethiopia where China is busily building railways and hospitals, and the locals are very grateful).

Meanwhile climate change is happening, but it ain't killing millions and it is very arguable a warmer world is better. Peak Oil turned out to be a myth, suddenly it turns out we have endless new unconventional gas and oil reserves, even as renewables come on tap and become properly competitive.

Soon we will say goodbye to the nastiness of the internal combustion engine, as electric cars, and driverless cars, take over. This will be a huge boon to the planetary environment, and a vast improvement in life opportunities for the old, blind, disabled, immobile.

Read across for drones, AI, Aug Reality, 5G, etc.

So the world is doing just fine.

How about Brexity old Blighty? We have the lowest unemployment on recent record, and our apparently wrecked and Brexited economy will probably grow faster than France or Italy this year, according to the IMF. A a supposedly crashed property market is just slowing down, but still growing. UBS have just announced that post Brexit they won't have to move 1000 jobs from London, maybe 250 or less. 5%. 1 in 20. Pff.

Meanwhile the autumn sun is shining, I have just got married to a beautiful woman half my age, and England have something like a decent football team.

WTF. Shut up everyone.

The_Apocalypse said:

HYUFD said:

The_Apocalypse said:

LOL at the idea that JRM will defuse the abortion issue. It’s the kind of socially conservative view which will repel the voters the Conservatives need to win - the under 40s. The kind of voters who won’t be bothered by JRM’s views are the kind of voters who already vote Conservative. The Corbyn comparison doesn’t work in the sense that his controversial beliefs did bother voters - those who older, mainly. But that they didn’t cut ice with those who were younger - just as Corbyn repelled many voters, he also ended up attracting them. The problem for the Conservative Party is that they already have all the voters who entertain a JRM world view in their ranks; by contrast Labour did not have all those who entertained a Corbynite world view in its ranks pre-June 2017.

JRM will hold a free vote on abortion, not include a manifesto commitment to ban it and there are still a fair few Labour Catholic working class voters who oppose abortion.

Of course the Tories still got 2% more votes and almost 60 more seats than Labour even despite Corbyn getting all the Corbynites in his tent.

The Tories tried to win a majority on back of attempting to appeal to only baby boomers and middle aged WWC and it didn’t happen. Also, it sounds weird but don’t assume that Catholic neccessarily means ‘oppose abortion’: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/most-uk-catholics-back-right-to-abortion-2jh6970gr

Even that free vote will get many crowing. Look at how many of my generation reacted on twitter to the DUP.

The issue in the GE, is by losing the majority you’ve turned what looked like a total loser into a guy that could be a winner. The GE in a sense was the perfect result for Corbyn - and it may have even been the ideal result for Labour. It allowed the party to make sufficient gains to make the electoral landscape much more favourable to them next time round, allowed them for the first time in years to shape the political debate, and left the Tories to deal with the inevitable tricky Brexit fallout which Labour could capitalise on.

DavidL said:

justin124 said:

DavidL said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Lol, Dermot Desmond being chased by the BBC about tax avoidance. The next day he fired off a letter to the reporter beginning with 'Are you a Rangers supporter?'.

Generally the narrative seems to have moved on from 'There's nothing crooked about using tax avoidance vehicles' to 'I am not avoiding tax by using these tax avoidance vehicles'.

Inevitable. Most people will see it as crooked even if it is legal, so it's a losing fight to try to argue the point.

And they would be completely right by the way. Even if it’s legal what the hell is Lewis Hamilton thinking about in trying to save the VAT on his private jet? That’s his knighthood gone for a burton. Silly man.

As for those scumbags working for the BBC I don’t know whether to be more annoyed that the BBC paid them £2m of taxpayers money for that brain dead crud or that they thought they should save the tax on it rather than being incredibly grateful to much much poorer licence payers who will never see that kind of money in their entire lives.

I have always thought of Lewis Hamilton and his ilk as scumbags and the country owes him no loyalty at all. Very sorry that he won the World Championship.

I wouldn't go that far but I am finding him waving the Union Jack from his cockpit more than slightly irritating in retrospect.

The_Apocalypse said:

LOL at the idea that JRM will defuse the abortion issue. It’s the kind of socially conservative view which will repel the voters the Conservatives need to win - the under 40s. The kind of voters who won’t be bothered by JRM’s views are the kind of voters who already vote Conservative. The Corbyn comparison doesn’t work in the sense that his controversial beliefs did bother voters - those who older, mainly. But that they didn’t cut ice with those who were younger - just as Corbyn repelled many voters, he also ended up attracting them. The problem for the Conservative Party is that they already have all the voters who entertain a JRM world view in their ranks; by contrast Labour did not have all those who entertained a Corbynite world view in its ranks pre-June 2017.

Danny565 said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxhunting animates (very strongly) a minority, but it wasn't an issue in GE2015, or GE2010, and it wasn't in GE2017 either for people who might otherwise have voted Conservative. I heard it twice from committed Labour voters.

Hmmmm. Maybe it was different in different consituencies, but where I was, people were constantly saying things like "I was thinking about voting Tory until I heard about fox-hunting".

IMO, the reason fox-hunting was an issue this time, whereas it wasn't in 2015, was because that kind of thing was "priced in" with Cameron; everyone saw him as a typical old-fashioned countryside Tory who would be into that kind of thing. With May on the other hand, people genuinely did think she was a different and more workingclass-friendly Tory at one time (in a way people NEVER thought about Cameron, despite his constant "hard working families" patter), so they were genuinely astonished to see that she supported one of the top signallers of old-fashioned, upper-class Tory politicians. It made them view all her other pronouncements about being a more worker-friendly Tory in a more sceptical way, I think.

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

AndyJS said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

anothernick said:

NickPalmer said:

MikeSmithson said:

HYUFD said:

The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.

How can you make that assertion?

I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.

In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.

.

You forget they do not have to all vote Tory to cost Labour.

A Labour Leave voter who goes to swing to Labour from the LDs, Greens, UKIP and the SNP than there was from the Tories.

In Greater London, I think quite a few former Conservatives switched because of Brexit. Outside London, not so many (though note Oxford West, Bath, Reading East). In the Midlands, quite a few former Labour switched over Brexit.

The only area there was a real switch to Labour from the Tories over Brexit was London but even there the Tories held seats like Putney, Finchley and Golders Green and Bromley which voted Remain, outside of London Labour won more Leave seats from the Tories than it did Remain seats.

Oxford West and Abingdon and Bath were both won by the LDs from the Tories, not by Labour.

The Tories did indeed pick up 4 Leave seats in the Midlands from Labour but that was far fewer than they were expecting to, especially given they lost 2 Midlands Leave seats to Labour.

Labour gained the only seat in the West Midlands to vote against Brexit in Warwick and Leamington.

They also gained Lincoln and High Peak in the East Midlands which voted Leave, so 2/3 of their gains in the Midlands were in Leave seats.

Plus Derby North.

Derby North and Lincoln were highly marginal and urban.

High Peak was a bad result but only slightly Leave and bordered Cheshire where the Conservatives did poorly.

SeanT said:

DavidL said:

Just caught up with @cyclefree’s last thread. LOL. Spot on. Whatever we all did in our previous lives, I seriously hope we enjoyed it. Surely we deserve better than this? Applies to this thread too of course.

Wherefrom this sense that we are at the End of Days?

It is bizarre. Yes UK politics is simultaneously chaotic and repetitive, at the moment (thanks mainly to Brexit), but the world as a whole, indeed poor old Britain, is hardly in a bad place, when you compare things to the past.

War is rarer than ever. No major nation is immersed in combat. ISIS have been defeated. Jihadism is a problem but compared to, say, Nazism or communism, as a global threat and human menace it is picayune.

Trump is a predictable idiot as prez - but he's not blowing up the world, he's just a symptom of American relative decline. Global growth is bowling along very nicely. China as deputy world policeman and next hegemonic superpower is actually not that bad a prospect (I've just been to Ethiopia where China is busily building railways and hospitals, and the locals are very grateful).

Meanwhile climate change is happening, but it ain't killing millions and it is very arguable a warmer world is better. Peak Oil turned out to be a myth, suddenly it turns out we have endless new unconventional gas and oil reserves, even as renewables come on tap and become properly competitive.

Soon we will say goodbye to the nastiness of the internal combustion engine, as electric cars, and driverless cars, take over. This will be a huge boon to the planetary environment, and a vast improvement in life opportunities for the old, blind, disabled, immobile.

Read across for drones, AI, Aug Reality, 5G, etc.

So the world is doing just fine.

How about Brexity old Blighty? We have the lowest unemployment on recent record, and our apparently wrecked and Brexited economy will probably grow faster than France or Italy this year, according to the IMF. A a supposedly crashed property market is just slowing down, but still growing. UBS have just announced that post Brexit they won't have to move 1000 jobs from London, maybe 250 or less. 5%. 1 in 20. Pff.

Meanwhile the autumn sun is shining, I have just got married to a beautiful woman half my age, and England have something like a decent football team.

WTF. Shut up everyone.

DavidL said:

SeanT said:

DavidL said:

Wherefrom this sense that we are at the End of Days?

It is bizarre. Yes UK politics is simultaneously chaotic and repetitive, at the moment (thanks mainly to Brexit), but the world as a whole, indeed poor old Britain, is hardly in a bad place, when you compare things to the past.

War is rarer than ever. No major nation is immersed in combat. ISIS have been defeated. Jihadism is a problem but compared to, say, Nazism or communism, as a global threat and human menace it is picayune.

Trump is a predictable idiot as prez - but he's not blowing up the world, he's just a symptom of American relative decline. Global growth is bowling along very nicely. China as deputy world policeman and next hegemonic superpower is actually not that bad a prospect (I've just been to Ethiopia where China is busily building railways and hospitals, and the locals are very grateful).

Meanwhile climate change is happening, but it ain't killing millions and it is very arguable a warmer world is better. Peak Oil turned out to be a myth, suddenly it turns out we have endless new unconventional gas and oil reserves, even as renewables come on tap and become properly competitive.

Soon we will say goodbye to the nastiness of the internal combustion engine, as electric cars, and driverless cars, take over. This will be a huge boon to the planetary environment, and a vast improvement in life opportunities for the old, blind, disabled, immobile.

Read across for drones, AI, Aug Reality, 5G, etc.

So the world is doing just fine.


Meanwhile the autumn sun is shining, I have just got married to a beautiful woman half my age, and England have something like a decent football team.

WTF. Shut up everyone.

You do realise you are supposed to stop having exciting sex when you are married? This excessive cheerfulness is wearing and unseemly.

International best selling authors apart real wages are falling and will continue to fall for some time yet as we gradually come to terms with the facts that (a) the world really doesn't owe us a living ; (b) we have not lived within our means for over 20 years now and the money is running out; (c) those pseudo Marxist intellectuals that we inexplicably left in charge of our education system have done our kids no favours at all and (d) there is almost no one in our Parliament that makes the bar of competent, let alone being capable of trying to address problems (a)-(c).

another_richard said:

DavidL said:

justin124 said:

DavidL said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Lol, Dermot Desmond being chased by the BBC about tax avoidance. The next day he fired off a letter to the reporter beginning with 'Are you a Rangers supporter?'.

Generally the narrative seems to have moved on from 'There's nothing crooked about using tax avoidance vehicles' to 'I am not avoiding tax by using these tax avoidance vehicles'.

Inevitable. Most people will see it as crooked even if it is legal, so it's a losing fight to try to argue the point.

And they would be completely right by the way. Even if it’s legal what the hell is Lewis Hamilton thinking about in trying to save the VAT on his private jet? That’s his knighthood gone for a burton. Silly man.

As for those scumbags working for the BBC I don’t know whether to be more annoyed that the BBC paid them £2m of taxpayers money for that brain dead crud or that they thought they should save the tax on it rather than being incredibly grateful to much much poorer licence payers who will never see that kind of money in their entire lives.

I have always thought of Lewis Hamilton and his ilk as scumbags and the country owes him no loyalty at all. Very sorry that he won the World Championship.

I wouldn't go that far but I am finding him waving the Union Jack from his cockpit more than slightly irritating in retrospect.

The £252bn Apple have in Jersey is more vexing to me.

I suspect it will come to mind when I pay over the proles PAYE deductions next week.

HYUFD said:

The_Apocalypse said:

HYUFD said:

The_Apocalypse said:

LOL at 2017.

JRM will hold a free vote on abortion, not include a manifesto commitment to ban it and there are still a fair few Labour Catholic working class voters who oppose abortion.

Of course the Tories still got 2% more votes and almost 60 more seats than Labour even despite Corbyn getting all the Corbynites in his tent.

The Tories tried to win a majority on back of attempting to appeal to only baby boomers and middle aged WWC and it didn’t happen. Also, it sounds weird but don’t assume that Catholic neccessarily means ‘oppose abortion’: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/most-uk-catholics-back-right-to-abortion-2jh6970gr

Even that free vote will get many crowing. Look at how many of my generation reacted on twitter to the DUP.

The issue in the GE, is by losing the majority you’ve turned what looked like a total loser into a guy that could be a winner. The GE in a sense was the perfect result for Corbyn - and it may have even been the ideal result for Labour. It allowed the party to make sufficient gains to make the electoral landscape much more favourable to them next time round, allowed them for the first time in years to shape the political debate, and left the Tories to deal with the inevitable tricky Brexit fallout which Labour could capitalise on.

They still won most votes though and of course JRM would have nothing to lose.

Unlike May but like Corbyn everyone will expect him to lose his first general election and badly because he is 'too extreme' etc. Every extra vote that he gets will revive the right as much as Corbyn revived the left.

Of course if Corbyn does get in it would be at the head of a weak minority Labour government most likely and he would then have to deal with the Brexit aftermath and any compromises he agreed to make with the EU, especially over free movement, would be pounced upon by a leader of the opposition Rees-Mogg. While the weaker the economy the more the boost for Mogg.

MarkHopkins said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Gordon brown really is unlucky politician...His memoirs are out tomorrow, but he is getting no publicity because of all the other news going on.

I'll give you a preview:

"I SAVED THE WORLD"

Big_G_NorthWales said:

surbiton said:

Brexit cheer for Christmas.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/06/slump-uk-car-sales-deepens-12-percent-fall

This is as a result of the hounding of diesel drivers which saw a 30% drop in sales.

The second hand market value has collapsed and therefore trading in for a new car becomes vastly more expensive

This is not Brexit - this is the toxification of owning a diesel car

FrancisUrquhart said:

Gordon brown really is unlucky politician...His memoirs are out tomorrow, but he is getting no publicity because of all the other news going on.

DavidL said:

Rhubarb said:

DavidL said:

surbiton said:

Brexit cheer for Christmas.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/06/slump-uk-car-sales-deepens-12-percent-fall

Improvement in balance of payments coming up? Excellent.

Given there were warnings of a car loans bubble over the summer, this may not be the apocalypse we are looking for.

It is yet another illustration of the consequences of insanely low interest rates generating excess demand. Most of those loans went on cars built elsewhere. It has to stop.

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

SeanT said:

DavidL said:

Wherefrom this sense that we are at the End of Days?

It is bizarre. Yes UK politics is simultaneously chaotic and repetitive, at the moment (thanks mainly to Brexit), but the world as a whole, indeed poor old Britain, is hardly in a bad place, when you compare things to the past.

War is rarer than ever. No major nation is immersed in combat. ISIS have been defeated. Jihadism is a problem but compared to, say, Nazism or communism, as a global threat and human menace it is picayune.

Trump is a predictable idiot as prez - but he's not blowing up the world, he's just a symptom of American relative decline. Global growth is bowling along very nicely. China as deputy world policeman and next hegemonic superpower is actually not that bad a prospect (I've just been to Ethiopia where China is busily building railways and hospitals, and the locals are very grateful).

Meanwhile climate change is happening, but it ain't killing millions and it is very arguable a warmer world is better. Peak Oil turned out to be a myth, suddenly it turns out we have endless new unconventional gas and oil reserves, even as renewables come on tap and become properly competitive.

Soon we will say goodbye to the nastiness of the internal combustion engine, as electric cars, and driverless cars, take over. This will be a huge boon to the planetary environment, and a vast improvement in life opportunities for the old, blind, disabled, immobile.

Read across for drones, AI, Aug Reality, 5G, etc.

So the world is doing just fine.


Meanwhile the autumn sun is shining, I have just got married to a beautiful woman half my age, and England have something like a decent football team.

WTF. Shut up everyone.

You do realise you are supposed to stop having exciting sex when you are married? This excessive cheerfulness is wearing and unseemly.

International best selling authors apart real wages are falling and will continue to fall for some time yet as we gradually come to terms with the facts that (a) the world really doesn't owe us a living ; (b) we have not lived within our means for over 20 years now and the money is running out; (c) those pseudo Marxist intellectuals that we inexplicably left in charge of our education system have done our kids no favours at all and (d) there is almost no one in our Parliament that makes the bar of competent, let alone being capable of trying to address problems (a)-(c).

One of the things I'd like to see this Government attempt to address is Marxist influence in our education system.

I'd like more centre-right teachers, please.

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

another_richard said:

SeanT said:

Wherefrom this sense that we are at the End of Days?

It is bizarre. Yes UK politics is simultaneously chaotic and repetitive, at the moment (thanks mainly to Brexit), but the world as a whole, indeed poor old Britain, is hardly in a bad place, when you compare things to the past.

War is rarer than ever. No major nation is immersed in combat. ISIS have been defeated. Jihadism is a problem but compared to, say, Nazism or communism, as a global threat and human menace it is picayune.

Trump is a predictable idiot as prez - but he's not blowing up the world, he's just a symptom of American relative decline. Global growth is bowling along very nicely. China as deputy world policeman and next hegemonic superpower is actually not that bad a prospect (I've just been to Ethiopia where China is busily building railways and hospitals, and the locals are very grateful).

Meanwhile climate change is happening, but it ain't killing millions and it is very arguable a warmer world is better. Peak Oil turned out to be a myth, suddenly it turns out we have endless new unconventional gas and oil reserves, even as renewables come on tap and become properly competitive.

Soon we will say goodbye to the nastiness of the internal combustion engine, as electric cars, and driverless cars, take over. This will be a huge boon to the planetary environment, and a vast improvement in life opportunities for the old, blind, disabled, immobile.

Read across for drones, AI, Aug Reality, 5G, etc.

So the world is doing just fine.

How about Brexity old Blighty? We have the lowest unemployment on recent record, and our apparently wrecked and Brexited economy will probably grow faster than France or Italy this year, according to the IMF. A a 20. Pff.

Meanwhile the .

Bliss it is to be middle aged, middle class and rich.

But the next generation is likely bolloxed.

But not as badly as the generation following them.

We've spent the wealth they were expected to make (but likely wont because someone or something will make it instead somewhere in the third world).

Even by 2050 we will still China (and historical perspective.

Stagnation and debt then.

Those who already have will be okay (provided they don't have excessive expectations).

But for those that don't its going to be painful.

Benpointer said:

HYUFD said:

another_richard said:

SeanT said:

DavidL said:

Just caught up with @cyclefree’s last thread. LOL. Spot on. Whatever we all did in our previous lives, I seriously hope we enjoyed it. Surely we deserve better than this? Applies to this thread too of course.

Meanwhile climate change is happening, but it ain't killing millions and it is very arguable a warmer world is better. Peak Oil turned out to be a myth, suddenly it turns out we have endless new unconventional gas and oil reserves, even as renewables come on tap and become properly competitive.

Soon we will say goodbye to the nastiness of the internal combustion engine, as electric cars, and driverless cars, take over. This will be a huge boon to the planetary environment, and a vast improvement in life opportunities for the old, blind, disabled, immobile.

Read across for drones, AI, Aug Reality, 5G, etc.

So the world is doing just fine.

How about Brexity old Blighty? We have the lowest unemployment on recent record, and our apparently wrecked and Brexited economy will probably grow faster than France or Italy this year, according to the IMF. A a supposedly crashed property market is just slowing down, but still growing. UBS have just announced that post Brexit they won't have to move 1000 jobs from London, maybe 250 or less. 5%. 1 in 20. Pff.

Meanwhile the .

Bliss it is to be middle aged, middle class and rich.

But the next generation is likely bolloxed.

But not as badly as the generation following them.

We've spent the wealth they were expected to make (but likely wont because someone or something will make it instead somewhere in the third world).

Even by 2050 we will still have a higher gdp per capita than India and most of the current third world, except perhaps China (if it does not revert to quasi Maoism under Xi) and be far better off than our ancestors were in the Victorian era or the Middle Ages.

You need to have some geographical and historical perspective.

I agree with you and SeanT on this point (if not much else lol!). We have just watched the Gunpowder series back-to-back this evening. Not a great series tbh but it did bring home what a brutal place Britain was 400 years ago. Life is immeasurably better in so many ways, in particular in how we tolerate and treat one another as human beings.

The_Apocalypse said:

HYUFD said:

The_Apocalypse said:

HYUFD said:

The_Apocalypse said:

LOL at 2017.

JRM will hold a free vote on abortion, not include a manifesto commitment to ban it and there are still a fair few Labour Catholic working class voters who oppose abortion.

Of course the Tories still got 2% more votes and almost 60 more seats than Labour even despite Corbyn getting all the Corbynites in his tent.

The Tories tried to win a majority on back of attempting to appeal to only baby boomers and middle aged WWC and it didn’t happen. Also, it sounds weird but don’t assume that Catholic neccessarily means ‘oppose abortion’: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/most-uk-catholics-back-right-to-abortion-2jh6970gr

Even that free vote will get many crowing. Look at how many of my generation reacted on twitter to the DUP.

The issue in the GE, is by losing the majority you’ve turned what looked like a total loser into a guy that could be a winner. The GE in a sense was the perfect result for Corbyn - and it may have even been the ideal result for Labour. It allowed the party to make sufficient gains to make the electoral landscape much more favourable to them next time round, allowed them for the first time in years to shape the political debate, and left the Tories to deal with the inevitable tricky Brexit fallout which Labour could capitalise on.

They still won most votes though and of course JRM would have nothing to lose.

Unlike May but like Corbyn everyone will expect him to lose his first general election and badly because he is 'too extreme' etc. Every extra vote that he gets will revive the right as much as Corbyn revived the left.

Of course if Mogg.

The point I made in my previous post is that Corbyn had the room to get those extra votes. JRM doesn’t because those who are sympathetic to his world view already vote Tory. Elections will not just be fought on immigration, but on housing, on the cost of living etc. There is nothing about JRM that will really add anything for the Tories on that score. If you’re concerned about housing or the cost of living, you aren’t going to vote for someone who represents more neo-liberalism.

I’m not going to go into speculating so far into the future on what Corbyn government would actually do. On that score, pretty much anything could happen.

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

SeanT said:

DavidL said:

Wherefrom this sense that we are at the End of Days?

It is bizarre. Yes UK politics is simultaneously chaotic and repetitive, at the moment (thanks mainly to Brexit), but the world as a whole, indeed poor old Britain, is hardly in a bad place, when you compare things to the past.

War is rarer than ever. No major nation is immersed in combat. ISIS have been defeated. Jihadism is a problem but compared to, say, Nazism or communism, as a global threat and human menace it is picayune.

Trump is a predictable idiot as prez - but he's not blowing up the world, he's just a symptom of American relative decline. Global growth is bowling along very nicely. China as deputy world policeman and next hegemonic superpower is actually not that bad a prospect (I've just been to Ethiopia where China is busily building railways and hospitals, and the locals are very grateful).

Meanwhile climate change is happening, but it ain't killing millions and it is very arguable a warmer world is better. Peak Oil turned out to be a myth, suddenly it turns out we have endless new unconventional gas and oil reserves, even as renewables come on tap and become properly competitive.

Soon we will say goodbye to the nastiness of the internal combustion engine, as electric cars, and driverless cars, take over. This will be a huge boon to the planetary environment, and a vast improvement in life opportunities for the old, blind, disabled, immobile.

Read across for drones, AI, Aug Reality, 5G, etc.

So the world is doing just fine.


Meanwhile the autumn sun is shining, I have just got married to a beautiful woman half my age, and England have something like a decent football team.

WTF. Shut up everyone.

You do realise you are supposed to stop having exciting sex when you are married? This excessive cheerfulness is wearing and unseemly.

International best selling authors apart real wages are falling and will continue to fall for some time yet as we gradually come to terms with the facts that (a) the world really doesn't owe us a living ; (b) we have not lived within our means for over 20 years now and the money is running out; (c) those pseudo Marxist intellectuals that we inexplicably left in charge of our education system have done our kids no favours at all and (d) there is almost no one in our Parliament that makes the bar of competent, let alone being capable of trying to address problems (a)-(c).

One of the things I'd like to see this Government attempt to address is Marxist influence in our education system.

I'd like more centre-right teachers, please.

IanB2 said:

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

SeanT said:

DavidL said:

Wherefrom this sense that we are at the End of Days?

It is bizarre. Yes UK politics is simultaneously chaotic and repetitive, at the moment (thanks mainly to Brexit), but the world as a whole, indeed poor old Britain, is hardly in a bad place, when you compare things to the past.

War is rarer than ever. No major nation is immersed in combat. ISIS have been defeated. Jihadism is a problem but compared to, say, Nazism or communism, as a global threat and human menace it is picayune.

Trump is a predictable idiot as prez - but he's not blowing up the world, he's just a symptom of American relative decline. Global growth is bowling along very nicely. China as deputy world policeman and next hegemonic superpower is actually not that bad a prospect (I've just been to Ethiopia where China is busily building railways and hospitals, and the locals are very grateful).

Meanwhile climate change is happening, but it ain't killing millions and it is very arguable a warmer world is better. Peak Oil turned out to be a myth, suddenly it turns out we have endless new unconventional gas and oil reserves, even as renewables come on tap and become properly competitive.

Soon we will say goodbye to the nastiness of the internal combustion engine, as electric cars, and driverless cars, take over. This will be a huge boon to the planetary environment, and a vast improvement in life opportunities for the old, blind, disabled, immobile.

Read across for drones, AI, Aug Reality, 5G, etc.

So the world is doing just fine.


Meanwhile the autumn sun is shining, I have just got married to a beautiful woman half my age, and England have something like a decent football team.

WTF. Shut up everyone.

You do realise you are supposed to stop having exciting sex when you are married? This excessive cheerfulness is wearing and unseemly.

International best selling authors apart real wages are falling and will continue to fall for some time yet as we gradually come to terms with the facts that (a) the world really doesn't owe us a living ; (b) we have not lived within our means for over 20 years now and the money is running out; (c) those pseudo Marxist intellectuals that we inexplicably left in charge of our education system have done our kids no favours at all and (d) there is almost no one in our Parliament that makes the bar of competent, let alone being capable of trying to address problems (a)-(c).

One of the things I'd like to see this Government attempt to address is Marxist influence in our education system.

I'd like more centre-right teachers, please.

What a ridiculous post.

The_Apocalypse said:

HYUFD said:

The_Apocalypse said:

HYUFD said:

The_Apocalypse said:

HYUFD said:

The_Apocalypse said:

LOL at 2017.

JRM will hold a free vote on abortion, not include a manifesto commitment to ban it and there are still a fair few Labour Catholic working class voters who oppose abortion.

Of course the Tories still got 2% more votes and almost 60 more seats than Labour even despite Corbyn getting all the Corbynites in his tent.

The Tories tried to win a majority on back of attempting to appeal to only baby boomers and middle aged WWC and it didn’t happen. Also, it sounds weird but don’t assume that Catholic neccessarily means ‘oppose abortion’: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/most-uk-catholics-back-right-to-abortion-2jh6970gr

Even that free vote will get many crowing. Look at how many of my generation reacted on twitter to the DUP.

The issue in the GE, is by losing the majority you’ve turned what looked like a total loser into a guy that could be a winner. The GE in a sense was the perfect result for Corbyn - and it may have even been the ideal result for Labour. It allowed the party to make sufficient gains to make the electoral landscape much more favourable to them next time round, allowed them for the first time in years to shape the political debate, and left the Tories to deal with the inevitable tricky Brexit fallout which Labour could capitalise on.

They still won most votes though and of course JRM would have nothing to lose.

Unlike May but like Corbyn everyone will expect him to lose his first general election and badly because he is 'too extreme' etc. Every extra vote that he gets will revive the right as much as Corbyn revived the left.

Of course if Mogg.

The point I made in my previous post is that Corbyn had the room to get those extra votes. JRM doesn’t because those who are sympathetic to his world view already vote Tory. Elections will not just be fought on immigration, but on housing, on the cost of living etc. There is nothing about JRM that will really add anything for the Tories on that score. If you’re concerned about housing or the cost of living, you aren’t going to vote for someone who represents more neo-liberalism.

I’m not going to go into speculating so far into the future on what Corbyn government would actually do. On that score, pretty much anything could happen.

Corbyn doe.

He does if the Tories actually want a working majority where they can implement their agenda.

The_Apocalypse said:

If Conservatives believe that young people are voting for Corbyn because the education system ‘is filled with lefties’ then they are going to have even more trouble gaining ground with my generation than I originally thought.

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/927637248815726592

anothernick said:

HYUFD said:

stodge said:

HYUFD said:

The Tories are still in government and we are beginning talks on a FTA with the EU by the end of the year.

Ah yes, we've now agreed to pay the bill - 60 billion euros, is it ?

Haven't actually heard May or anyone in the Cabinet shouting this from the rooftops - that's 60 billion euros we'll be paying to leave, not zero, not "the EU can whistle" but 60 billion euros.

Perhaps you and the other Conservatives would like to explain how all the bluster leads to us paying pretty much what the EU wanted in the first place.

Crucially though it means we will ultimately get a FTA with the EU AND end free movement and replace it with a points system.

Ultimately. Perhaps after a decade or two. When most UK industry and commerce has relocated to the 27. As for a points system, we won't need one. Net immigration will be negative as the economy tanks and people move to better jobs overseas.

Alanbrooke said:

Scott_P said:

@faisalislam: Tory MP @JohnStevensonMP in the backbench EEA debate said UK should join Efta which would “turbocharge Efta”

@faisalislam: @JohnStevensonMP Stevenson says that “damage is already happening” -£155m tyre factory due to be built in his constituency postponed and “may never happen”

because they "might" build it in southern england instead

http://www.in-cumbria.com/DMACKs-500-job-tyre-factory-could-be-built-in-southern-England-not-Carlisle-506caf83-690c-493b-b99f-06847eb1d446-ds

fkwit

FrancisUrquhart said:

U2 frontman Bono has responded to his name appearing in the Paradise Papers revelations. In a statement issued to the BBC, the singer said he would be "extremely distressed" if he was shown to be involved in "anything less than exemplary".

Says man whose band funneled their earnings through a low tax agreement in Holland rather than their home country of Ireland....

FrancisUrquhart said:

U2 frontman Bono has responded to his name appearing in the Paradise Papers revelations. In a statement issued to the BBC, the singer said he would be "extremely distressed" if he was shown to be involved in "anything less than exemplary".

Says man whose band funneled their earnings through a low tax agreement in Holland rather than their home country of Ireland....