The 'problem' for the lefties is that most of the US shootouts used legally obtained weapons.
What difference does that make? Dead is dead.
When is the US going to face up to the fact that it has a massive gun problem?
It has, and it seems to be content to continue on as they are, strange as it seems. Sure, there's outrage and those that are not content, but if the country were overwhelmingly outraged it would change direction, and no one seems to think that will happen.
I have often considered that the best thing about the US is the 3,500 miles of ocean between me and it. I always had the amazing, fantastic, historical, tolerant, welcoming UK to live in. Now I just see that slipping away as the lunatics burn down the asylum.
Well, you have Ireland I guess.
Yes indeed, but I prefer to stay where I am.
If I was going to Ireland, I would live around Caherdaniel in the extreme southwest where I had many happy holidays. It really is the back of beyond but it is in the Ring of Kerry and has better weather than Malin Head where my grandmother came from.
The stench of death surrounding this government is overwhelming, yet the zombie cabinet lurches on, necrotizing everything it touches
Necrotizing Brexititis is a fatal condition that would afflict any government attempting to leave the EU on a slim mandate based on a false prospectus.
Thanks for pointing out the real issue with Scott.
Scott's number issue is brexit and how to stop it,if that means getting rid of this Tory government, so be it.
Except Corbyn will not stop Brexit or even commit to soft Brexit either.
His only hope on that score is the LDs holding the balance of power in a hung Parliament and perhaps with SNP support forcing Corbyn to stay in the single market in return for confidence and supply even if that means leaving free movement uncontrolled.
On current polling that is of course not impossible.
The majority of labour MP's are in the remain camp ,so is the membership, he will do what these people tell him -free movement and all.
37% of Labour voters voted Leave and a majority of Labour seats voted Leave.
If a weak Corbyn minority government is forced to leave free movement in place because of LD and SNP demands the UK stays in the single market a Tory Leaver opposition leader and UKIP will be licking their lips at all those Labour Leave voters now in play.
There's been a shake out in support for Conservatives and Labour since then. Brexit supporters increasingly back the Conservatives, Remainers increasingly back Labour.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
The remainer's calling for Boris resignation is indicative that they fear he may succeed May and go for a hard Brexit.
It is a big assumption to think only Remainers think Boris is unsuited for his current post and thus fear his success. I think he's unsuited to the role for a start.
The stench of death surrounding this government is overwhelming, yet the zombie cabinet lurches on, necrotizing everything it touches
Necrotizing Brexititis is a fatal condition that would afflict any government attempting to leave the EU on a slim mandate based on a false prospectus.
Thanks for pointing out the real issue with Scott.
Scott's number issue is brexit and how to stop it,if that means getting rid of this Tory government, so be it.
Except Corbyn will not stop Brexit or even commit to soft Brexit either.
His only hope on that score is the LDs holding the balance of power in a hung Parliament and perhaps with SNP support forcing Corbyn to stay in the single market in return for confidence and supply even if that means leaving free movement uncontrolled.
On current polling that is of course not impossible.
The majority of labour MP's are in the remain camp ,so is the membership, he will do what these people tell him -free movement and all.
37% of Labour voters voted Leave and a majority of Labour seats voted Leave.
If a weak Corbyn minority government is forced to leave free movement in place because of LD and SNP demands the UK stays in the single market a Tory Leaver opposition leader and UKIP will be licking their lips at all those Labour Leave voters now in play.
There's been a shake out in support for Conservatives and Labour since then. Brexit supporters increasingly back the Conservatives, Remainers increasingly back Labour.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
As he neutralised Brexit, hence he could then go on the attack against austerity, low wages etc in working class Leave seats.
The remainer's calling for Boris resignation is indicative that they fear he may succeed May and go for a hard Brexit.
It is a big assumption to think only Remainers think Boris is unsuited for his current post and thus fear his success. I think he's unsuited to the role for a start.
Agreed and indeed I cannot think a post that he would excel at but at present he will remain in the FO but will not succeed May
I think that the existential problem the Conservatives have is that they can no longer represent both Essex and Kent or the Midlands, on the one hand, and rich seats in big cities on the other. Court and Country are too far apart.
The 'problem' for the lefties is that most of the US shootouts used legally obtained weapons.
What difference does that make? Dead is dead.
When is the US going to face up to the fact that it has a massive gun problem?
It has, and it seems to be content to continue on as they are, strange as it seems. Sure, there's outrage and those that are not content, but if the country were overwhelmingly outraged it would change direction, and no one seems to think that will happen.
I have often considered that the best thing about the US is the 3,500 miles of ocean between me and it. I always had the amazing, fantastic, historical, tolerant, welcoming UK to live in. Now I just see that slipping away as the lunatics burn down the asylum.
Well, you have Ireland I guess.
Yes indeed, but I prefer to stay where I am.
If I was going to Ireland, I would live around Caherdaniel in the extreme southwest where I had many happy holidays. It really is the back of beyond but it is in the Ring of Kerry and has better weather than Malin Head where my grandmother came from.
I think that the existential problem the Conservatives have is that they can no longer represent both Essex and Kent or the Midlands, on the one hand, and rich seats in big cities on the other. Court and Country are too far apart.
Why not? The Tories won Richmond Park and Mansfield, Thanet South and Harlow and Putney and Cheltenham at the General election.
Equally Labour won Grimsby and Hornsey and Wood Green, Hove and Barnsley.
The general election did not break down on Brexit lines anything like as much as many expected precisely because both May and Corbyn backed leaving the EU, the single market and ending free movement. The LDs, while they picked up a net 4 seats, also won fewer Remain seats than they expected to despite campaigning on an 'anti Brexit' platform.
That would require enough people to believe the opposite to rebut it to keep it funny.
Big_G seems willing to carry that torch for now
Well there;s always one.
May personifies rectitude , which seems a good attribute in the current situation.
A fair point. She's lost her authority, and is stumbling around with a weak government, but on that at least she seems sound.
I simply do not know anyone who could continue as PM in the present circumstances other than someone with an enormous sense of duty and diligence in seeing it through - and that is May.
When this period concludes circa mid 2019 and May stands down she may be well remembered for her errors but also that she did not walk away when many others would
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
I think that the existential problem the Conservatives have is that they can no longer represent both Essex and Kent or the Midlands, on the one hand, and rich seats in big cities on the other. Court and Country are too far apart.
Why not? The Tories won Richmond Park and Mansfield, Thanet South and Harlow and Putney and Cheltenham at the General election.
Equally Labour won Grimsby and Hornsey and Wood Green, Hove and Barnsley.
The general election did not break down on Brexit lines anything like as much as many expected precisely because both May and Corbyn backed leaving the EU, the single market and ending free movement. The LDs, while they picked up a net 4 seats, also won fewer Remain seats than they expected to despite campaigning on an 'anti Brexit' platform.
They held on by their fingernails in Putney and Richmond (and Westminster South), while being swept away in places like Kensington, Southgate, and Ilford North. Prosperous small and medium-sized towns are fine for the Tories.
U2 frontman Bono has responded to his name appearing in the Paradise Papers revelations. In a statement issued to the BBC, the singer said he would be "extremely distressed" if he was shown to be involved in "anything less than exemplary".
Says man whose band funneled their earnings through a low tax agreement in Holland rather than their home country of Ireland....
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Corbyn not only held Labour Leave voters but won 20% of UKIP voters precisely because he promised to end free movement. Had he promised to leave free movement in place not only would Labour have failed to recapture virtually any UKIP voters, who were crucial in Labour gaining seats like Vale of Clwyd but they would also have seen more Labour Leave voters defect to the Tories than ultimately did so in a few areas like Mansfield and Stoke South.
Of the 10 seats with the smallest Labour majorities where the Tories were second in June, 8 were Leave seats. Had the Tories won them they would have got to 326 seats, the threshold required for a majority. http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/conservative
Christ alive at the latest boo-boos from Boris and Priti Patel.
At this rate, Rees-Mogg is going to have a legitimate claim to be the "safe pair of hands" in the next leadership contest.
I reckon JRM would be a fine prime minister. Extremely smart, witty, nicely self deprecating, and surprisingly astute and sure-footed. He makes friends quickly and disarms enemies easily. A great gift. He also argues and debates very well: he summons facts as evidence with assuredness, and is apparently unflappable.
He is the ultra-posh mirror image of Corbyn. Impossible to imagine as leader - until it happens.
As a nation we could do a whole lot worse. I don't think it will turn out that way (the Catholic/abortion stuff is a big issue) but if the Tories did somehow madly elect JRM as PM I reckon he'd have more than a fighting chance against Labour under Corb.
There'd probably be constant protests over his abortion views if he became PM.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
I think that the existential problem the Conservatives have is that they can no longer represent both Essex and Kent or the Midlands, on the one hand, and rich seats in big cities on the other. Court and Country are too far apart.
Why not? The Tories won Richmond Park and Mansfield, Thanet South and Harlow and Putney and Cheltenham at the General election.
Equally Labour won Grimsby and Hornsey and Wood Green, Hove and Barnsley.
The general election did not break down on Brexit lines anything like as much as many expected precisely because both May and Corbyn backed leaving the EU, the single market and ending free movement. The LDs, while they picked up a net 4 seats, also won fewer Remain seats than they expected to despite campaigning on an 'anti Brexit' platform.
They held on by their fingernails in Putney and Richmond (and Westminster South), while being swept away in places like Kensington, Southgate, and Ilford North. Prosperous small and medium-sized towns are fine for the Tories.
Once Brexit ceases to be an issue (2023?) I am sure the Tories will return (under a liberal soft Brexit leader) to power in places like Kensington, especially if Labour remain Hard Left under a Corbynite successor.
Taking the temperature amongst my centre/centre-left urban friends, the one thing that might (might) get them to vote Tory is if the alternative is full-on socialism.
I think that the existential problem the Conservatives have is that they can no longer represent both Essex and Kent or the Midlands, on the one hand, and rich seats in big cities on the other. Court and Country are too far apart.
Why not? The Tories won Richmond Park and Mansfield, Thanet South and Harlow and Putney and Cheltenham at the General election.
Equally Labour won Grimsby and Hornsey and Wood Green, Hove and Barnsley.
The general election did not break down on Brexit lines anything like as much as many expected precisely because both May and Corbyn backed leaving the EU, the single market and ending free movement. The LDs, while they picked up a net 4 seats, also won fewer Remain seats than they expected to despite campaigning on an 'anti Brexit' platform.
They held on by their fingernails in Putney and Richmond (and Westminster South), while being swept away in places like Kensington, Southgate, and Ilford North. Prosperous small and medium-sized towns are fine for the Tories.
So what, they still held them. Had it really been a Brexit election the Tories would have lost Putney and Richmond Park and Cities of London and Westminster and gained Barrow and Furness, Ashfield and Bishop Auckland.
They did not because it was, in the end, not really the Brexit election it was supposed to be.
Christ alive at the latest boo-boos from Boris and Priti Patel.
At this rate, Rees-Mogg is going to have a legitimate claim to be the "safe pair of hands" in the next leadership contest.
I reckon JRM would be a fine prime minister. Extremely smart, witty, nicely self deprecating, and surprisingly astute and sure-footed. He makes friends quickly and disarms enemies easily. A great gift. He also argues and debates very well: he summons facts as evidence with assuredness, and is apparently unflappable.
He is the ultra-posh mirror image of Corbyn. Impossible to imagine as leader - until it happens.
As a nation we could do a whole lot worse. I don't think it will turn out that way (the Catholic/abortion stuff is a big issue) but if the Tories did somehow madly elect JRM as PM I reckon he'd have more than a fighting chance against Labour under Corb.
I think JRM needs to be tested in ministerial office. At the moment, I'd see him as a superb legislator and parliamentarian rather than a budding member of the executive.
Christ alive at the latest boo-boos from Boris and Priti Patel.
At this rate, Rees-Mogg is going to have a legitimate claim to be the "safe pair of hands" in the next leadership contest.
I reckon JRM would be a fine prime minister. Extremely smart, witty, nicely self deprecating, and surprisingly astute and sure-footed. He makes friends quickly and disarms enemies easily. A great gift. He also argues and debates very well: he summons facts as evidence with assuredness, and is apparently unflappable.
He is the ultra-posh mirror image of Corbyn. Impossible to imagine as leader - until it happens.
As a nation we could do a whole lot worse. I don't think it will turn out that way (the Catholic/abortion stuff is a big issue) but if the Tories did somehow madly elect JRM as PM I reckon he'd have more than a fighting chance against Labour under Corb.
There'd probably be constant protests over his abortion views if he became PM.
He justs disarms that by the assurance it is a very personal view, and not one he would ever wish to impose on the Nation. Any change on the law on abortion will be unwhipped votes, purely on the conscience of each of his MPs. Just as he would expect of the other parties.
He has the ability to convince voters that is exactly what would happen. And if he tried to impose a Whip, then his MPs would have plenty of cause to ignore it and vote their conscience anyway.
I really don't see it as an issue to stop him being PM. I'm just not sure the Party is there yet, to give him the chance in the first place.
(As someone with a say in the choice, I have to say I currently have no idea who I would vote for. But I would lean towards a fresh face, not currently in the frame.)
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
A fair post, except the bit about Corbyn being mildy pro-EU.
There's very little in his past record to suggest that, and his behaviour over the last two years suggests he's acted as weakly pro-EU as he must (and can get away with) whilst he and his team obfuscate and apathise beneath the surface.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
You forget they do not have to all vote Tory to cost Labour.
A Labour Leave voter who goes to UKIP because of uncontrolled immigration is still one less Labour voter even if they cannot bring themselves to vote Tory.
It was Labour losing voters to UKIP which cost them Vale of Clwyd in 2015 for example and UKIP voters returning to Labour in 2017 which saw them regain the seat.
Your argument about supposed Tory remainers switching en masse to Labour also does not really hold water. The Tory to Labour swing was very small in June and as much to do with the dementia tax as anything else, there was a bigger swing to Labour from the LDs, Greens, UKIP and the SNP than there was from the Tories.
I think that the existential problem the Conservatives have is that they can no longer represent both Essex and Kent or the Midlands, on the one hand, and rich seats in big cities on the other. Court and Country are too far apart.
Why not? The Tories won Richmond Park and Mansfield, Thanet South and Harlow and Putney and Cheltenham at the General election.
Equally Labour won Grimsby and Hornsey and Wood Green, Hove and Barnsley.
The general election did not break down on Brexit lines anything like as much as many expected precisely because both May and Corbyn backed leaving the EU, the single market and ending free movement. The LDs, while they picked up a net 4 seats, also won fewer Remain seats than they expected to despite campaigning on an 'anti Brexit' platform.
They held on by their fingernails in Putney and Richmond (and Westminster South), while being swept away in places like Kensington, Southgate, and Ilford North. Prosperous small and medium-sized towns are fine for the Tories.
Once Brexit ceases to be an issue (2023?) I am sure the Tories will return (under a liberal soft Brexit leader) to power in places like Kensington, especially if Labour remain Hard Left under a Corbynite successor.
Taking the temperature amongst my centre/centre-left urban friends, the one thing that might (might) get them to vote Tory is if the alternative is full-on socialism.
To do that they need to remember pragmatism and lose the ideological shit. That means - amongst other things no fox hunting, no JRM and no hard Brexit.
Christ alive at the latest boo-boos from Boris and Priti Patel.
At this rate, Rees-Mogg is going to have a legitimate claim to be the "safe pair of hands" in the next leadership contest.
I reckon JRM would be a fine prime minister. Extremely smart, witty, nicely self deprecating, and surprisingly astute and sure-footed. He makes friends quickly and disarms enemies easily. A great gift. He also argues and debates very well: he summons facts as evidence with assuredness, and is apparently unflappable.
He is the ultra-posh mirror image of Corbyn. Impossible to imagine as leader - until it happens.
As a nation we could do a whole lot worse. I don't think it will turn out that way (the Catholic/abortion stuff is a big issue) but if the Tories did somehow madly elect JRM as PM I reckon he'd have more than a fighting chance against Labour under Corb.
There'd probably be constant protests over his abortion views if he became PM.
He justs disarms that by the assurance it is a very personal view, and not one he would ever wish to impose on the Nation. Any change on the law on abortion will be unwhipped votes, purely on the conscience of each of his MPs. Just as he would expect of the other parties.
I don't think that would work personally. If he was that clear there is no reason he could not, but I don't think the party would want to be having a debate about it even to assure people that his personal views would not lead to a change in party policy. Granted, it is not my party, but I would expect them to run a mile from having that discussion, which his leadership would force.
Christ alive at the latest boo-boos from Boris and Priti Patel.
At this rate, Rees-Mogg is going to have a legitimate claim to be the "safe pair of hands" in the next leadership contest.
I reckon JRM would be a fine prime minister. Extremely smart, witty, nicely self deprecating, and surprisingly astute and sure-footed. He makes friends quickly and disarms enemies easily. A great gift. He also argues and debates very well: he summons facts as evidence with assuredness, and is apparently unflappable.
He is the ultra-posh mirror image of Corbyn. Impossible to imagine as leader - until it happens.
As a nation we could do a whole lot worse. I don't think it will turn out that way (the Catholic/abortion stuff is a big issue) but if the Tories did somehow madly elect JRM as PM I reckon he'd have more than a fighting chance against Labour under Corb.
There'd probably be constant protests over his abortion views if he became PM.
He justs disarms that by the assurance it is a very personal view, and not one he would ever wish to impose on the Nation. Any change on the law on abortion will be unwhipped votes, purely on the conscience of each of his MPs. Just as he would expect of the other parties.
He has the ability to convince voters that is exactly what would happen. And if he tried to impose a Whip, then his MPs would have plenty of cause to ignore it and vote their conscience anyway.
I really don't see it as an issue to stop him being PM. I'm just not sure the Party is there yet, to give him the chance in the first place.
(As someone with a say in the choice, I have to say I currently have no idea who I would vote for. But I would lean towards a fresh face, not currently in the frame.)
You and me both. I do not want any of the old guard succeeding TM
Christ alive at the latest boo-boos from Boris and Priti Patel.
At this rate, Rees-Mogg is going to have a legitimate claim to be the "safe pair of hands" in the next leadership contest.
I reckon JRM would be a fine prime minister. Extremely smart, witty, nicely self deprecating, and surprisingly astute and sure-footed. He makes friends quickly and disarms enemies easily. A great gift. He also argues and debates very well: he summons facts as evidence with assuredness, and is apparently unflappable.
He is the ultra-posh mirror image of Corbyn. Impossible to imagine as leader - until it happens.
As a nation we could do a whole lot worse. I don't think it will turn out that way (the Catholic/abortion stuff is a big issue) but if the Tories did somehow madly elect JRM as PM I reckon he'd have more than a fighting chance against Labour under Corb.
JRM is more likely to take over as Tory leader of the opposition than succeed May as PM but the rest of your points are on the mark.
There's a Whole Foods in Cheltenham...but not places like Guildford...What genius in the previous management thought that was a good idea. I bet the new Amazon management went where the f##k is Gliffnock...
I think that the existential problem the Conservatives have is that they can no longer represent both Essex and Kent or the Midlands, on the one hand, and rich seats in big cities on the other. Court and Country are too far apart.
Why not? The Tories won Richmond Park and Mansfield, Thanet South and Harlow and Putney and Cheltenham at the General election.
Equally Labour won Grimsby and Hornsey and Wood Green, Hove and Barnsley.
The general election did not break down on Brexit lines anything like as much as many expected precisely because both May and Corbyn backed leaving the EU, the single market and ending free movement. The LDs, while they picked up a net 4 seats, also won fewer Remain seats than they expected to despite campaigning on an 'anti Brexit' platform.
They held on by their fingernails in Putney and Richmond (and Westminster South), while being swept away in places like Kensington, Southgate, and Ilford North. Prosperous small and medium-sized towns are fine for the Tories.
Once Brexit ceases to be an issue (2023?) I am sure the Tories will return (under a liberal soft Brexit leader) to power in places like Kensington, especially if Labour remain Hard Left under a Corbynite successor.
Taking the temperature amongst my centre/centre-left urban friends, the one thing that might (might) get them to vote Tory is if the alternative is full-on socialism.
To do that they need to remember pragmatism and lose the ideological shit. That means - amongst other things no fox hunting, no JRM and no hard Brexit.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.
Personally I think Corbyn is actually more anti EU than May is, Corbyn was firmly anti EU in the 1980s and voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, had he been a backbencher still and not Labour leader he would likely have voted Leave.
May by contrast was always a Remainer until the day after the referendum.
A description like that is the only thing that makes the government look like it is doing ok, since it is so over the top, and half the things happening at present are not even only government issues.
Please give us a comprehensive list of the things this Government has done, and not monumentally fucked up, this year...
I'll wait.
This government is incompetent and bereft of purpose. But, I would give it credit for cutting both unemployment and the public sector deficit.
And, I welcome the pension and education reforms as well, and its vision on infrastructure.
But it's not just the May administration. It started before that when, post GE2015, it became clear that Cameron/Osborne were rather shocked at winning a majority, weren't really sure what to do with it, were a bit embarrassed about having to make a show of implementing its own manifesto.
I'd say most of (not all) the biggest wins the Conservatives secured were during the 2010-2012 period, with a scattering of useful things post GE2015 as well.
Ireland gets all the snow? Not in Caherdaniel they do not. It is practically tropical down there
Good for Caherdaniel, though it has a way to go before it starts to rival Mauritius, the Maldives and the Bahamas and Caribbean for tourists in the winter months.
I think that the existential problem the Conservatives have is that they can no longer represent both Essex and Kent or the Midlands, on the one hand, and rich seats in big cities on the other. Court and Country are too far apart.
Why not? The Tories won Richmond Park and Mansfield, Thanet South and Harlow and Putney and Cheltenham at the General election.
Equally Labour won Grimsby and Hornsey and Wood Green, Hove and Barnsley.
The general election did not break down on Brexit lines anything like as much as many expected precisely because both May and Corbyn backed leaving the EU, the single market and ending free movement. The LDs, while they picked up a net 4 seats, also won fewer Remain seats than they expected to despite campaigning on an 'anti Brexit' platform.
They held on by their fingernails in Putney and Richmond (and Westminster South), while being swept away in places like Kensington, Southgate, and Ilford North. Prosperous small and medium-sized towns are fine for the Tories.
Once Brexit ceases to be an issue (2023?) I am sure the Tories will return (under a liberal soft Brexit leader) to power in places like Kensington, especially if Labour remain Hard Left under a Corbynite successor.
Taking the temperature amongst my centre/centre-left urban friends, the one thing that might (might) get them to vote Tory is if the alternative is full-on socialism.
To do that they need to remember pragmatism and lose the ideological shit. That means - amongst other things no fox hunting, no JRM and no hard Brexit.
But your ideological shit is my reason for being a Conservative activist.
Banning (rather than reforming or licencing) fox hunting was considered to be the ideological shit post GE2001, but Blair threw the red meat, even though he was reluctant to do so.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn can only obtain the tools to realise his socialist dream by leaving the single market.
We know he soft-pedalled for Remain during the referendum (contrast how passionately he campaigned in GE2017) and his voting record on the EU over 30 years is very clear.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.
But Corbyn now thinks he is going to be PM and is starting to make appropriate compromises with reality. Read his speech to the CBI. When asked recently whether he would still vote remain today he agreed he would - not the action of someone itching to leave at the earliest possible moment. And the Labour Party membership, including the new Corbynites, are overwhelmingly pro EU.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
You forget they do not have to all vote Tory to cost Labour.
A Labour Leave voter who goes to UKIP because of uncontrolled immigration is still one less Labour voter even if they cannot bring themselves to vote Tory.
It was Labour losing voters to UKIP which cost them Vale of Clwyd in 2015 for example and UKIP voters returning to Labour in 2017 which saw them regain the seat.
Your argument about supposed Tory remainers switching en masse to Labour also does not really hold water. The Tory to Labour swing was very small in June and as much to do with the dementia tax as anything else, there was a bigger swing to Labour from the LDs, Greens, UKIP and the SNP than there was from the Tories.
In Greater London, I think quite a few former Conservatives switched because of Brexit. Outside London, not so many (though note Oxford West, Bath, Reading East). In the Midlands, quite a few former Labour switched over Brexit.
I think that the existential problem the Conservatives have is that they can no longer represent both Essex and Kent or the Midlands, on the one hand, and rich seats in big cities on the other. Court and Country are too far apart.
Why not? The Tories won Richmond Park and Mansfield, Thanet South and Harlow and Putney and Cheltenham at the General election.
Equally Labour won Grimsby and Hornsey and Wood Green, Hove and Barnsley.
The general election did not break down on Brexit lines anything like as much as many expected precisely because both May and Corbyn backed leaving the EU, the single market and ending free movement. The LDs, while they picked up a net 4 seats, also won fewer Remain seats than they expected to despite campaigning on an 'anti Brexit' platform.
They held on by their fingernails in Putney and Richmond (and Westminster South), while being swept away in places like Kensington, Southgate, and Ilford North. Prosperous small and medium-sized towns are fine for the Tories.
Once Brexit ceases to be an issue (2023?) I am sure the Tories will return (under a liberal soft Brexit leader) to power in places like Kensington, especially if Labour remain Hard Left under a Corbynite successor.
Taking the temperature amongst my centre/centre-left urban friends, the one thing that might (might) get them to vote Tory is if the alternative is full-on socialism.
To do that they need to remember pragmatism and lose the ideological shit. That means - amongst other things no fox hunting, no JRM and no hard Brexit.
But your ideological shit is my reason for being a Conservative activist.
Banning (rather than reforming or licencing) fox hunting was considered to be the ideological shit post GE2001, but Blair threw the red meat, even though he was reluctant to do so.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.
Personally I think Corbyn is actually more anti EU than May is, Corbyn was firmly anti EU in the 1980s and voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, had he been a backbencher still and not Labour leader he would likely have voted Leave.
May by contrast was always a Remainer until the day after the referendum.
For sure
May isn't a Leaver now, either. I think she's just personally possessive of what she believes are her policies, and, once they are established, she doesn't like to back down or compromise.
It's one of the reasons I'm worried about her premiership.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.
But Corbyn now thinks he is going to be PM and is starting to make appropriate compromises with reality. Read his speech to the CBI. When asked recently whether he would still vote remain today he agreed he would - not the action of someone itching to leave at the earliest possible moment. And the Labour Party membership, including the new Corbynites, are overwhelmingly pro EU.
But your ideological shit is my reason for being a Conservative activist.
Banning (rather than reforming or licencing) fox hunting was considered to be the ideological shit post GE2001, but Blair threw the red meat, even though he was reluctant to do so.
You want people to vote for you or not?
Whilst I agree with the point you are making, CR's bunch are in charge and your bunch are not. Obviously enough people voted for the Tories. Amazing ...
Ireland gets all the snow? Not in Caherdaniel they do not. It is practically tropical down there
Good for Caherdaniel, though it has a way to go before it starts to rival Mauritius, the Maldives and the Bahamas and Caribbean for tourists in the winter months.
I think that the existential problem the Conservatives have is that they can no longer represent both Essex and Kent or the Midlands, on the one hand, and rich seats in big cities on the other. Court and Country are too far apart.
Why not? The Tories won Richmond Park and Mansfield, Thanet South and Harlow and Putney and Cheltenham at the General election.
Equally Labour won Grimsby and Hornsey and Wood Green, Hove and Barnsley.
The general election did not break down on Brexit lines anything like as much as many expected precisely because both May and Corbyn backed leaving the EU, the single market and ending free movement. The LDs, while they picked up a net 4 seats, also won fewer Remain seats than they expected to despite campaigning on an 'anti Brexit' platform.
They held on by their fingernails in Putney and Richmond (and Westminster South), while being swept away in places like Kensington, Southgate, and Ilford North. Prosperous small and medium-sized towns are fine for the Tories.
Once Brexit ceases to be an issue (2023?) I am sure the Tories will return (under a liberal soft Brexit leader) to power in places like Kensington, especially if Labour remain Hard Left under a Corbynite successor.
Taking the temperature amongst my centre/centre-left urban friends, the one thing that might (might) get them to vote Tory is if the alternative is full-on socialism.
To do that they need to remember pragmatism and lose the ideological shit. That means - amongst other things no fox hunting, no JRM and no hard Brexit.
But your ideological shit is my reason for being a Conservative activist.
Banning (rather than reforming or licencing) fox hunting was considered to be the ideological shit post GE2001, but Blair threw the red meat, even though he was reluctant to do so.
You want people to vote for you or not?
Foxhunting animates (very strongly) a minority, but it wasn't an issue in GE2015, or GE2010, and it wasn't in GE2017 either for people who might otherwise have voted Conservative. I heard it twice from committed Labour voters.
The biggest issue that I was unearthing on the doorstep was weariness with austerity amongst the middle aged, and the "dementia tax" amongst pensioners.
I suppose you could add to that "the young" who weren't in, or even answering the doors, who we all missed.
Seems the parties have agreed a new procedure with pictures of all the leaders round the same table.
Why can't they do that on Brexit, the NHS and social care
Mrs May deliberately thwarted attempts to make Brexit a cross-party affair, because she believed the Conservatives would benefit from being seen as the Brexit Party.
The large percentage favouring the "Other" candidate reveals -rightly -that Tory members recognise that the Old Gang of Conservative frontbenchers will not win a majority at a general election. Johnson is just a blonde buffoon Donald Trump lookalike, and the others are nonentities. The Tories need a younger leader who will re-invent the Party. I think May recognises that because she has made a start at promoting younger MPs like Williamson into the cabinet.
On topic, the members vote only becomes relevant after the parliamentary vote.
If I had to call who'd come out as the top two in an MPs contest right now, I'd say Gove and Hunt (not Davis, who I think would be third) with Hunt top.
They both exude competence and purpose, have good, solid, steady cabinet experience, a record they can (and do) both defend, and a sense of vision.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Ere.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.
But Corbyn now thinks he is going to be PM and is starting to make appropriate compromises with reality. Read his speech to the CBI. When asked recently whether he would still vote remain today he agreed he would - not the action of someone itching to leave at the earliest possible moment. And the Labour Party membership, including the new Corbynites, are overwhelmingly pro EU.
Turns out when you really think you can win, compromise and moderation are suddenly more attractive. I don't doubt he wants to do some radical things, by the standards of others, but for all his talk he would probably seek to smash the system less now.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.
But Corbyn now thinks he is going to be PM and is starting to make appropriate compromises with reality. Read his speech to the CBI. When asked recently whether he would still vote remain today he agreed he would - not the action of someone itching to leave at the earliest possible moment. And the Labour Party membership, including the new Corbynites, are overwhelmingly pro EU.
Corbyn is both still committed to Brexit and to leaving the single market, hardly the sign of a passionate Remainer.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
I would not be surprised to finally hear that Corbyn voted both Remain and Leave - ie he spoiled his paper. Then he could say (with a certain degree of truth) that, yes, he voted for Remain.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I die.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.
But Corbyn now thinks he is going to be PM and is starting to make appropriate compromises with reality. Read his speech to the CBI. When asked recently whether he would still vote remain today he agreed he would - not the action of someone itching to leave at the earliest possible moment. And the Labour Party membership, including the new Corbynites, are overwhelmingly pro EU.
Corbyn is both still committed to Brexit and to leaving the single market, hardly the sign of a passionate Remainer.
Indeed, and I doubt he is - but he is clearly more willing to modulate his messaging than his own supporters liked to think.
Foxhunting animates (very strongly) a minority, but it wasn't an issue in GE2015, or GE2010, and it wasn't in GE2017 either for people who might otherwise have voted Conservative. I heard it twice from committed Labour voters.
Hmmmm. Maybe it was different in different consituencies, but where I was, people were constantly saying things like "I was thinking about voting Tory until I heard about fox-hunting".
IMO, the reason fox-hunting was an issue this time, whereas it wasn't in 2015, was because that kind of thing was "priced in" with Cameron; everyone saw him as a typical old-fashioned countryside Tory who would be into that kind of thing. With May on the other hand, people genuinely did think she was a different and more workingclass-friendly Tory at one time (in a way people NEVER thought about Cameron, despite his constant "hard working families" patter), so they were genuinely astonished to see that she supported one of the top signallers of old-fashioned, upper-class Tory politicians. It made them view all her other pronouncements about being a more worker-friendly Tory in a more sceptical way, I think.
It is time for us to revisit old memes and pronounce that "Theresa is cr*p" on a regular basis?
We live in mediocre times. I thought Mrs May had the zeitgeist. A crap leader for an unavoidably crap Brexit.
Somehow she failed to meet my expectations.
Based on her prior record I had thought she was going to be better than this.
Admittedly, I did too. For about a week. "Brexit means Brexit" was her indicator of crapness for me. She should have said, "Brexit means leaving the EU because that's what Britain voted for. Brexit also means being the best friend possible of our European partners and the EU as well." That's a respectable Leaver position and would show her to be serious about a good relationship.
Minister Steve Baker: “neither EFTA nor the EEA were designed to facilitate exit from the EU”
EFTA certainly wasn't, as it's thirty-odd years older than the EU.
On topic, a fiver of mine at 66/1 still hopes the '23.29% other' conceals a lot of backing for Hunt. I don't think he was on The List, but he doesn't seem to have been on manoeuvres.
And if Williamson knows Parliament and the PCP as well as everyone says, he will know that the assassin never becomes the king.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.
But Corbyn now thinks he is going to be PM and is starting to make appropriate compromises with reality. Read his speech to the CBI. When asked recently whether he would still vote remain today he agreed he would - not the action of someone itching to leave at the earliest possible moment. And the Labour Party membership, including the new Corbynites, are overwhelmingly pro EU.
Corbyn is both still committed to Brexit and to leaving the single market, hardly the sign of a passionate Remainer.
Corbyn is a full-blown single marketeer. I don't know where you get your guff from.
It is the agreed Labour party policy that we will seek to achieve single market and customs union and until such time that is not achieved, we would be in a transitional period of unlimited duration.
On topic, the members vote only becomes relevant after the parliamentary vote.
If I had to call who'd come out as the top two in an MPs contest right now, I'd say Gove and Hunt (not Davis, who I think would be third) with Hunt top.
They both exude competence and purpose, have good, solid, steady cabinet experience, a record they can (and do) both defend, and a sense of vision.
That would be enough.
A final two of Gove and Hunt would please me very much!
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
You forget they do not have to all vote Tory to cost Labour.
A Labour Leave voter who goes to swing to Labour from the LDs, Greens, UKIP and the SNP than there was from the Tories.
In Greater London, I think quite a few former Conservatives switched because of Brexit. Outside London, not so many (though note Oxford West, Bath, Reading East). In the Midlands, quite a few former Labour switched over Brexit.
The only area there was a real switch to Labour from the Tories over Brexit was London but even there the Tories held seats like Putney, Finchley and Golders Green and Bromley which voted Remain, outside of London Labour won more Leave seats from the Tories than it did Remain seats.
Oxford West and Abingdon and Bath were both won by the LDs from the Tories, not by Labour.
The Tories did indeed pick up 4 Leave seats in the Midlands from Labour but that was far fewer than they were expecting to, especially given they lost 2 Midlands Leave seats to Labour.
Seems the parties have agreed a new procedure with pictures of all the leaders round the same table.
Why can't they do that on Brexit, the NHS and social care
Mrs May deliberately thwarted attempts to make Brexit a cross-party affair, because she believed the Conservatives would benefit from being seen as the Brexit Party.
Yes. She chose to put the interests of the Tory Party before those of the country. And ended up ruining both.
It is time for us to revisit old memes and pronounce that "Theresa is cr*p" on a regular basis?
We live in mediocre times. I thought Mrs May had the zeitgeist. A crap leader for an unavoidably crap Brexit.
Somehow she failed to meet my expectations.
Based on her prior record I had thought she was going to be better than this.
Admittedly, I did too. For about a week. "Brexit means Brexit" was her indicator of crapness for me. She should have said, "Brexit means leaving the EU because that's what Britain voted for. Brexit also means being the best friend possible of our European partners and the EU as well." That's a respectable Leaver position and would show her to be serious about a good relationship.
But Corbyn now thinks he is going to be PM and is starting to make appropriate compromises with reality. Read his speech to the CBI. When asked recently whether he would still vote remain today he agreed he would - not the action of someone itching to leave at the earliest possible moment. And the Labour Party membership, including the new Corbynites, are overwhelmingly pro EU.
Plenty of Labour voters went Leave. But the Brexit project is emphatically a Conservative one. Labour voters don't think, great, Bojo, Gove et al are doing what I want, which is to leave the European Union. They think, that shower will screw us over - they always do. Rochdale Pioneer on this board, I think, is an example of this view.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I die.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.
But Corbyn now thinks he is going to be PM and is starting to make appropriate compromises with reality. Read his speech to the CBI. When asked recently whether he would still vote remain today he agreed he would - not the action of someone itching to leave at the earliest possible moment. And the Labour Party membership, including the new Corbynites, are overwhelmingly pro EU.
Corbyn is both still committed to Brexit and to leaving the single market, hardly the sign of a passionate Remainer.
Indeed, and I doubt he is - but he is clearly more willing to modulate his messaging than his own supporters liked to think.
Not on the 2 key issues for Remainers though, ie either reversing Brexit or at least agreeing to stay in the single market.
Seems the parties have agreed a new procedure with pictures of all the leaders round the same table.
Why can't they do that on Brexit, the NHS and social care
Mrs May deliberately thwarted attempts to make Brexit a cross-party affair, because she believed the Conservatives would benefit from being seen as the Brexit Party.
Yes. She chose to put the interests of the Tory Party before those of the country. And ended up ruining both.
The Tories are still in government and we are beginning talks on a FTA with the EU by the end of the year.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
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Exactly so. Labour voters are not as obsessed about the EU as some Tories are. They are not that bothered about it either way and those who voted leave did so partly to express dissatisfaction with their lot and partly to protest about immigration. Their support for leave has not turned them into Tories and is unlikely to do so in the future.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.
But Corbyn now EU.
Corbyn is both still committed to Brexit and to leaving the single market, hardly the sign of a passionate Remainer.
Corbyn is a full-blown single marketeer. I don't know where you get your guff from.
It is the agreed Labour party policy that we will seek to achieve single market and customs union and until such time that is not achieved, we would be in a transitional period of unlimited duration.
The Labour Party policy is actually that we will be leaving the single market and ending free movement, even if they support a slightly longer transition period than the Tories.
On topic, the members vote only becomes relevant after the parliamentary vote.
If I had to call who'd come out as the top two in an MPs contest right now, I'd say Gove and Hunt (not Davis, who I think would be third) with Hunt top.
They both exude competence and purpose, have good, solid, steady cabinet experience, a record they can (and do) both defend, and a sense of vision.
That would be enough.
This is close to my reasoning for backing Gove, though I haven't much clue about the Tory membership any more and am wondering if Rees-Mogg could convince them. (I also think Gove would have a good record of delivery and an interesting ideological edge to do well in a head-to-head against a stolid managerial candidate like Hunt, but I would currently be happy enough if he made the final two.)
Just caught up with @cyclefree’s last thread. LOL. Spot on. Whatever we all did in our previous lives, I seriously hope we enjoyed it. Surely we deserve better than this? Applies to this thread too of course.
On topic, the members vote only becomes relevant after the parliamentary vote.
If I had to call who'd come out as the top two in an MPs contest right now, I'd say Gove and Hunt (not Davis, who I think would be third) with Hunt top.
They both exude competence and purpose, have good, solid, steady cabinet experience, a record they can (and do) both defend, and a sense of vision.
That would be enough.
No way, they are both electoral poison, especially Gove and MPs know that. They are reasonable Cabinet Ministers but would be disasters as leaders.
Most likely it will actually be Davis and Rudd in the top 2 with MPs with Boris 3rd (Hunt would likely back Rudd and Gove may back Boris this time). Davis would then win the membership vote.
JRM will probably not stand for leader until the Tories return to opposition.
A description like that is the only thing that makes the government look like it is doing ok, since it is so over the top, and half the things happening at present are not even only government issues.
Please give us a comprehensive list of the things this Government has done, and not monumentally fucked up, this year...
I'll wait.
This government is incompetent and bereft of purpose. But, I would give it credit for cutting both unemployment and the public sector deficit.
And, I welcome the pension and education reforms as well, and its vision on infrastructure.
But it's not just the May administration. It started before that when, post GE2015, it became clear that Cameron/Osborne were rather shocked at winning a majority, weren't really sure what to do with it, were a bit embarrassed about having to make a show of implementing its own manifesto.
I'd say most of (not all) the biggest wins the Conservatives secured were during the 2010-2012 period, with a scattering of useful things post GE2015 as well.
Scott's question related to the past 12 months. Over a longer period, I'd give them credit for more things, including obviously, the EU referendum.
Lol, Dermot Desmond being chased by the BBC about tax avoidance. The next day he fired off a letter to the reporter beginning with 'Are you a Rangers supporter?'.
Generally the narrative seems to have moved on from 'There's nothing crooked about using tax avoidance vehicles' to 'I am not avoiding tax by using these tax avoidance vehicles'.
Inevitable. Most people will see it as crooked even if it is legal, so it's a losing fight to try to argue the point.
And they would be completely right by the way. Even if it’s legal what the hell is Lewis Hamilton thinking about in trying to save the VAT on his private jet? That’s his knighthood gone for a burton. Silly man.
As for those scumbags working for the BBC I don’t know whether to be more annoyed that the BBC paid them £2m of taxpayers money for that brain dead crud or that they thought they should save the tax on it rather than being incredibly grateful to much much poorer licence payers who will never see that kind of money in their entire lives.
Lol, Dermot Desmond being chased by the BBC about tax avoidance. The next day he fired off a letter to the reporter beginning with 'Are you a Rangers supporter?'.
Generally the narrative seems to have moved on from 'There's nothing crooked about using tax avoidance vehicles' to 'I am not avoiding tax by using these tax avoidance vehicles'.
Inevitable. Most people will see it as crooked even if it is legal, so it's a losing fight to try to argue the point.
And they would be completely right by the way. Even if it’s legal what the hell is Lewis Hamilton thinking about in trying to save the VAT on his private jet? That’s his knighthood gone for a burton. Silly man.
As for those scumbags working for the BBC I don’t know whether to be more annoyed that the BBC paid them £2m of taxpayers money for that brain dead crud or that they thought they should save the tax on it rather than being incredibly grateful to much much poorer licence payers who will never see that kind of money in their entire lives.
This is Lewis "I am moved to Switzerland to minimize my tax bill" Hamilton. Given that, why wouldn't he also do the same on his jet.
And Mrs Brown's Boys cast weren't trying to avoid tax, oh no no, they were simply trying to setup an arrangement so they could decide when they paid it...but the BBC are so used to paying talent via all sorts of tax efficient vehicles, sending payment to Mauritius wouldn't ever send any sort of red flag.
@faisalislam: Tory MP @JohnStevensonMP in the backbench EEA debate said UK should join Efta which would “turbocharge Efta”
@faisalislam: @JohnStevensonMP Stevenson says that “damage is already happening” -£155m tyre factory due to be built in his constituency postponed and “may never happen”
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
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I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
The Labour Leave campaign in Luton seemed strongly committed to the anti-EU cause, and put out very effective propaganda, which I helped to distribute. Those I talked to reckoned that Corbyn was privately on their side.
Corbyn is fairly strongly anti-EU, I suspect. And I know for sure his close allies (like Milne and McDonnell) are entirely eurosceptic. They despise it as a neo-liberal corporate-capitalist swindle. The EU's actions towards Catalonia will only confirm their antipathy.
But Corbyn now EU.
Corbyn is both still committed to Brexit and to leaving the single market, hardly the sign of a passionate Remainer.
Corbyn is a full-blown single marketeer. I don't know where you get your guff from.
It is the agreed Labour party policy that we will seek to achieve single market and customs union and until such time that is not achieved, we would be in a transitional period of unlimited duration.
The Labour Party policy is actually that we will be leaving the single market and ending free movement, even if they support a slightly longer transition period than the Tories.
You know fuck all.
"Labour would seek a transitional deal that maintains the same basic terms that we currently enjoy with the EU. That means we would seek to remain in a customs union with the EU and within the single market during this period. It means we would abide by the common rules of both." - Fully agreed shadow cabinet policy.
Lol, Dermot Desmond being chased by the BBC about tax avoidance. The next day he fired off a letter to the reporter beginning with 'Are you a Rangers supporter?'.
Generally the narrative seems to have moved on from 'There's nothing crooked about using tax avoidance vehicles' to 'I am not avoiding tax by using these tax avoidance vehicles'.
Inevitable. Most people will see it as crooked even if it is legal, so it's a losing fight to try to argue the point.
And they would be completely right by the way. Even if it’s legal what the hell is Lewis Hamilton thinking about in trying to save the VAT on his private jet? That’s his knighthood gone for a burton. Silly man.
As for those scumbags working for the BBC I don’t know whether to be more annoyed that the BBC paid them £2m of taxpayers money for that brain dead crud or that they thought they should save the tax on it rather than being incredibly grateful to much much poorer licence payers who will never see that kind of money in their entire lives.
I have always thought of Lewis Hamilton and his ilk as scumbags and the country owes him no loyalty at all. Very sorry that he won the World Championship.
@faisalislam: Tory MP @JohnStevensonMP in the backbench EEA debate said UK should join Efta which would “turbocharge Efta”
@faisalislam: @JohnStevensonMP Stevenson says that “damage is already happening” -£155m tyre factory due to be built in his constituency postponed and “may never happen”
Yup. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. Under WTO the price of coffee will also go up.
The general election did not really suggest that. In fact Labour made a net gain in Leave seats from the Tories precisely because Corbyn promised to end free movement.
How can you make that assertion?
I canvassed quite a bit in the massive pro-Leave Nottingtham North constituency. I never met a single voter who cited Corbyn being pro-Leave or anti-free movement as a reason for voting Labour. The reality was just that people there disliked both the EU and the Tories, so at the referendum they vote Leave and at the GE they voted Labour. It wasn't my impression that many had given it much more thought than that.
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
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You forget they do not have to all vote Tory to cost Labour.
A Labour Leave voter who goes to swing to Labour from the LDs, Greens, UKIP and the SNP than there was from the Tories.
In Greater London, I think quite a few former Conservatives switched because of Brexit. Outside London, not so many (though note Oxford West, Bath, Reading East). In the Midlands, quite a few former Labour switched over Brexit.
The only area there was a real switch to Labour from the Tories over Brexit was London but even there the Tories held seats like Putney, Finchley and Golders Green and Bromley which voted Remain, outside of London Labour won more Leave seats from the Tories than it did Remain seats.
Oxford West and Abingdon and Bath were both won by the LDs from the Tories, not by Labour.
The Tories did indeed pick up 4 Leave seats in the Midlands from Labour but that was far fewer than they were expecting to, especially given they lost 2 Midlands Leave seats to Labour.
Labour gained the only seat in the West Midlands to vote against Brexit in Warwick and Leamington.
LOL at the idea that JRM will defuse the abortion issue. It’s the kind of socially conservative view which will repel the voters the Conservatives need to win - the under 40s. The kind of voters who won’t be bothered by JRM’s views are the kind of voters who already vote Conservative. The Corbyn comparison doesn’t work in the sense that his controversial beliefs did bother voters - those who older, mainly. But that they didn’t cut ice with those who were younger - just as Corbyn repelled many voters, he also ended up attracting them. The problem for the Conservative Party is that they already have all the voters who entertain a JRM world view in their ranks; by contrast Labour did not have all those who entertained a Corbynite world view in its ranks pre-June 2017.
Comments
If I was going to Ireland, I would live around Caherdaniel in the extreme southwest where I had many happy holidays. It really is the back of beyond but it is in the Ring of Kerry and has better weather than Malin Head where my grandmother came from.
Boris is going nowhere but equally neither is he going to be PM
At this rate, Rees-Mogg is going to have a legitimate claim to be the "safe pair of hands" in the next leadership contest.
Equally Labour won Grimsby and Hornsey and Wood Green, Hove and Barnsley.
The general election did not break down on Brexit lines anything like as much as many expected precisely because both May and Corbyn backed leaving the EU, the single market and ending free movement. The LDs, while they picked up a net 4 seats, also won fewer Remain seats than they expected to despite campaigning on an 'anti Brexit' platform.
Somehow she failed to meet my expectations.
When this period concludes circa mid 2019 and May stands down she may be well remembered for her errors but also that she did not walk away when many others would
In any case, while Corbyn is only mildly pro-EU, one bit he really approves of is free movement.
Says man whose band funneled their earnings through a low tax agreement in Holland rather than their home country of Ireland....
Of the 10 seats with the smallest Labour majorities where the Tories were second in June, 8 were Leave seats. Had the Tories won them they would have got to 326 seats, the threshold required for a majority.
http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/conservative
Or the day Dave forgot which team he supported.
Remember Coulson? That was the game changer.
The massive scandal of Queen overseas fund having£3k invested in Bright House is on the same level as the £10 burger.
I did a great deal of canvassing in strongly pro remain London constituencies and it was clear that a large number of Tory remainers were voting Labour to protest about Brexit. They were furious about the whole thing and even though Corbyns personal position was lukewarm they knew that Labour was generally much more pro remain than the Tories. Nothing that has happened since the election suggests that these people will return to the Tory fold in the future.
They did not because it was, in the end, not really the Brexit election it was supposed to be.
He has the ability to convince voters that is exactly what would happen. And if he tried to impose a Whip, then his MPs would have plenty of cause to ignore it and vote their conscience anyway.
I really don't see it as an issue to stop him being PM. I'm just not sure the Party is there yet, to give him the chance in the first place.
(As someone with a say in the choice, I have to say I currently have no idea who I would vote for. But I would lean towards a fresh face, not currently in the frame.)
There's very little in his past record to suggest that, and his behaviour over the last two years suggests he's acted as weakly pro-EU as he must (and can get away with) whilst he and his team obfuscate and apathise beneath the surface.
A Labour Leave voter who goes to UKIP because of uncontrolled immigration is still one less Labour voter even if they cannot bring themselves to vote Tory.
It was Labour losing voters to UKIP which cost them Vale of Clwyd in 2015 for example and UKIP voters returning to Labour in 2017 which saw them regain the seat.
Your argument about supposed Tory remainers switching en masse to Labour also does not really hold water. The Tory to Labour swing was very small in June and as much to do with the dementia tax as anything else, there was a bigger swing to Labour from the LDs, Greens, UKIP and the SNP than there was from the Tories.
There's a Whole Foods in Cheltenham...but not places like Guildford...What genius in the previous management thought that was a good idea. I bet the new Amazon management went where the f##k is Gliffnock...
May by contrast was always a Remainer until the day after the referendum.
But it's not just the May administration. It started before that when, post GE2015, it became clear that Cameron/Osborne were rather shocked at winning a majority, weren't really sure what to do with it, were a bit embarrassed about having to make a show of implementing its own manifesto.
I'd say most of (not all) the biggest wins the Conservatives secured were during the 2010-2012 period, with a scattering of useful things post GE2015 as well.
Banning (rather than reforming or licencing) fox hunting was considered to be the ideological shit post GE2001, but Blair threw the red meat, even though he was reluctant to do so.
We know he soft-pedalled for Remain during the referendum (contrast how passionately he campaigned in GE2017) and his voting record on the EU over 30 years is very clear.
Why can't they do that on Brexit, the NHS and social care
It's one of the reasons I'm worried about her premiership.
The biggest issue that I was unearthing on the doorstep was weariness with austerity amongst the middle aged, and the "dementia tax" amongst pensioners.
I suppose you could add to that "the young" who weren't in, or even answering the doors, who we all missed.
If I had to call who'd come out as the top two in an MPs contest right now, I'd say Gove and Hunt (not Davis, who I think would be third) with Hunt top.
They both exude competence and purpose, have good, solid, steady cabinet experience, a record they can (and do) both defend, and a sense of vision.
That would be enough.
IMO, the reason fox-hunting was an issue this time, whereas it wasn't in 2015, was because that kind of thing was "priced in" with Cameron; everyone saw him as a typical old-fashioned countryside Tory who would be into that kind of thing. With May on the other hand, people genuinely did think she was a different and more workingclass-friendly Tory at one time (in a way people NEVER thought about Cameron, despite his constant "hard working families" patter), so they were genuinely astonished to see that she supported one of the top signallers of old-fashioned, upper-class Tory politicians. It made them view all her other pronouncements about being a more worker-friendly Tory in a more sceptical way, I think.
On topic, a fiver of mine at 66/1 still hopes the '23.29% other' conceals a lot of backing for Hunt. I don't think he was on The List, but he doesn't seem to have been on manoeuvres.
And if Williamson knows Parliament and the PCP as well as everyone says, he will know that the assassin never becomes the king.
It is the agreed Labour party policy that we will seek to achieve single market and customs union and until such time that is not achieved, we would be in a transitional period of unlimited duration.
Oxford West and Abingdon and Bath were both won by the LDs from the Tories, not by Labour.
The Tories did indeed pick up 4 Leave seats in the Midlands from Labour but that was far fewer than they were expecting to, especially given they lost 2 Midlands Leave seats to Labour.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4915924/Corbyn-says-single-market-isn-t-socialist-enough.html
The Labour Party policy is actually that we will be leaving the single market and ending free movement, even if they support a slightly longer transition period than the Tories.
Most likely it will actually be Davis and Rudd in the top 2 with MPs with Boris 3rd (Hunt would likely back Rudd and Gove may back Boris this time). Davis would then win the membership vote.
JRM will probably not stand for leader until the Tories return to opposition.
As for those scumbags working for the BBC I don’t know whether to be more annoyed that the BBC paid them £2m of taxpayers money for that brain dead crud or that they thought they should save the tax on it rather than being incredibly grateful to much much poorer licence payers who will never see that kind of money in their entire lives.
And Mrs Brown's Boys cast weren't trying to avoid tax, oh no no, they were simply trying to setup an arrangement so they could decide when they paid it...but the BBC are so used to paying talent via all sorts of tax efficient vehicles, sending payment to Mauritius wouldn't ever send any sort of red flag.
https://twitter.com/GLove39/status/927499073971802112
@faisalislam: @JohnStevensonMP Stevenson says that “damage is already happening” -£155m tyre factory due to be built in his constituency postponed and “may never happen”
"Labour would seek a transitional deal that maintains the same basic terms that we currently enjoy with the EU. That means we would seek to remain in a customs union with the EU and within the single market during this period. It means we would abide by the common rules of both." - Fully agreed shadow cabinet policy.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/26/keir-starmer-no-constructive-ambiguity-brexit-cliff-edge-labour-will-avoid-transitional-deal
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/06/slump-uk-car-sales-deepens-12-percent-fall