politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Picking up the pieces. Disintegrating Europe
Comments
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Bless. You don't understand.surbiton said:
The scenario above does not mean the rUK will have to be in the single market. The UK except NI can be outside the customs union with NI being inside.Casino_Royale said:
Trade can only be a UK wide policy if the UK is to remain a single market.surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
The report suggests local frontier points will have to be agreed with the UK, and says it is “not inconceivable” there will be eight crossing points, including a permanent customs post on the M1 between Dublin and Belfast.
The report will make sober reading for Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, who came to office this summer warning that Ireland would not design a border for the Brexiteers.
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
The UK couldn't have a foreign organisation effectively responsible for its trade policy in large parts of its territory that might diverge from Westminster.0 -
Thank you for making my point for me.williamglenn said:
As George Smiley more recently says, “I’m a European, Peter. If I had a mission – if I were ever aware of one beyond our business with the enemy, it was to Europe. If I was heartless, I was heartless for Europe. If I had an unattainable ideal, it was of leading Europe out of her darkness towards a new age of reason. I have it still.”Casino_Royale said:
As George Smiley says; "because he is a fanatic, and the interesting thing about a fanatic is that they always harbour a secret doubt."CarlottaVance said:
A dismembered United Kingdom, with reunited Ireland, independent Scotland will crawl back into the EU on its belly welcoming the Euro and Schengen....in Mr Glenn world....Casino_Royale said:
William, according to you, any path chosen >insert chosen path here< by the UK results in national immolation except integrating itself into a federal Europe, so I take what you say with more salt than the Dead Sea.williamglenn said:
In practice no deal means no Brexit. The UK doesn't have the [insert suitable descriptor] to do it and would destroy itself if it tried.Casino_Royale said:
EIRE is what will force the EU to compromise, eventually. They'd be hit much harder than the UK by no deal, and are sitting right inside all the EU institutions, right now, making that point.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ireland are stuffed then, aren't they? As things stand, on March 29th 2019 the borders will, under EU law, have to go up. They've made no plans to set up the infrastructure, and, even if they had, as the article makes clear their economy will be decimated. And yet the EU27 still refuse to talk about the ongoing relationship.williamglenn said:You're drawing diametrically the wrong conclusion. The Irish position is that if the UK (or NI at least) leaves the customs union then a border is inevitable. That means that trade talks are irrelevant to the political dimension. It's the UK trying to pretend that leaving the customs union can somehow be achieved while maintaining no border. Pressure needs to be brought to bear on the UK government until they accept reality.
The fact that it will also be a disaster for Northern Ireland is hardly going to be much consolation for them, but, if they won't discuss customs and tariff arrangements, then what on earth can the UK do?
I think William's biggest fear is he might be proven to Ben wrong, hence his ever increasing desperate pronouncements on here of inevitable catastrophe if we don't reverse course(and then some) now.0 -
Shame that mission was never exposed to democratic scrutiny, George.williamglenn said:
As George Smiley more recently says, “I’m a European, Peter. If I had a mission – if I were ever aware of one beyond our business with the enemy, it was to Europe. If I was heartless, I was heartless for Europe. If I had an unattainable ideal, it was of leading Europe out of her darkness towards a new age of reason. I have it still.”Casino_Royale said:
As George Smiley says; "because he is a fanatic, and the interesting thing about a fanatic is that they always harbour a secret doubt."CarlottaVance said:
A dismembered United Kingdom, with reunited Ireland, independent Scotland will crawl back into the EU on its belly welcoming the Euro and Schengen....in Mr Glenn world....Casino_Royale said:
William, according to you, any path chosen >insert chosen path here< by the UK results in national immolation except integrating itself into a federal Europe, so I take what you say with more salt than the Dead Sea.williamglenn said:
In practice no deal means no Brexit. The UK doesn't have the [insert suitable descriptor] to do it and would destroy itself if it tried.Casino_Royale said:
EIRE is what will force the EU to compromise, eventually. They'd be hit much harder than the UK by no deal, and are sitting right inside all the EU institutions, right now, making that point.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ireland are stuffed then, aren't they? As things stand, on March 29th 2019 the borders will, under EU law, have to go up. They've made no plans to set up the infrastructure, and, even if they had, as the article makes clear their economy will be decimated. And yet the EU27 still refuse to talk about the ongoing relationship.williamglenn said:You're drawing diametrically the wrong conclusion. The Irish position is that if the UK (or NI at least) leaves the customs union then a border is inevitable. That means that trade talks are irrelevant to the political dimension. It's the UK trying to pretend that leaving the customs union can somehow be achieved while maintaining no border. Pressure needs to be brought to bear on the UK government until they accept reality.
The fact that it will also be a disaster for Northern Ireland is hardly going to be much consolation for them, but, if they won't discuss customs and tariff arrangements, then what on earth can the UK do?
I think William's biggest fear is he might be proven to Ben wrong, hence his ever increasing desperate pronouncements on here of inevitable catastrophe if we don't reverse course(and then some) now.
Oh, it was. You lost.....0 -
I think the trade deals the UK as a whole agrees with other countries will be for the nation as a whole, and ones we can all live with.foxinsoxuk said:
Border control at Junction 21 of the M1? about time!PeterC said:
Complete Balkanisation. Customs posts everywhere!!foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
The report suggests local frontier points will have to be agreed with the UK, and says it is “not inconceivable” there will be eight crossing points, including a permanent customs post on the M1 between Dublin and Belfast.
The report will make sober reading for Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, who came to office this summer warning that Ireland would not design a border for the Brexiteers.
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.0 -
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].Richard_Tyndall said:
It wouldn't work for two reasons. Firstly because it would do huge damage to NI economy and secondly because the Unionists would never accept it. No matter how much you might like the idea it is a non starter.surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.0 -
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.surbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
The report will make sober reading for Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, who came to office this summer warning that Ireland would not design a border for the Brexiteers.
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.0 -
Having also read the new book, and virtually everything else le Carré has written, it's worth pointing out that Smiley's affinity to Europe is a cultural one, and in particular to Germany, and bugger all to do with the EU and Brexit.Casino_Royale said:Thank you for making my point for me.
It's a theme that goes right back to the early novels, as Smiley questions what he and the service are fighting for, Smiley being jaded with the idea of fighting for King and Country during the war, or Capitalism post-war, and more inclined to fight for older and higher values as he sees them, what might broadly be described as Civilisation (in a Kenneth Clark sense, not the more literal sense).
It occurs to me that in the Smiley novels the only character with any significant political motivation is Bill Haydon, the traitor.0 -
I see the BBC online report on Catalonia quotes an MP of the main party saying the plan is not to UDI on Tuesday, but make a symbolic statement talking about setting off along a path leading to independence. Not sure if that exactly makes an unsalvageable situation salvageable, but it is something.0
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UKsurbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
The report suggests local frontier points will have to be agreed with the UK, and says it is “not inconceivable” there will be eight crossing points, including a permanent customs post on the M1 between Dublin and Belfast.
The report will make sober reading for Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, who came to office this summer warning that Ireland would not design a border for the Brexiteers.
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
LEAVE 52%
REMAIN 48%
-1 -
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.0 -
0
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I know the subsidised voted to Leave so that London will still look after them.Sunil_Prasannan said:
UKsurbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
LEAVE 52%
REMAIN 48%
First, we will have duty free access of NZ dairy products. That will bankrupt half the UK dairy farmers. Then we will bring in $2 chlorinated chicken and that will bankrupt half of the chicken producers.
And a complete stop to all subsidies to farmers.0 -
Surely any arrangement which creates hard borders and possible barriers to trade within a soverign state is a non-starter. A simple no-strings-attached FTA covering goods between the UK and the EU would diffuse the situation. Or ROI could leave the EU and form a free trade area with the UK.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].Richard_Tyndall said:
It wouldn't work for two reasons. Firstly because it would do huge damage to NI economy and secondly because the Unionists would never accept it. No matter how much you might like the idea it is a non starter.surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
ly after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.0 -
"London" isn't a EU member-state - the UK is, however.surbiton said:
I know the subsidised voted to Leave so that London will still look after them.Sunil_Prasannan said:
UKsurbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
LEAVE 52%
REMAIN 48%0 -
Cake and eat it. Are we prepared to pay the commitments we have entered into ? You [ Brexiters ] seem to imply that the UK has a God given right to have free trade agreement with the EU. We do not. If preconditions are not met then we are in the WTO.PeterC said:
Surely any arrangement which creates hard borders nd possible barriers to trade within a soverign state is a non-starter. A simple no-strings-attached FTA covering goods between the UK and the EU would diffuse the situation. Or ROI could leave the EU and form a free trade area with he UK.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].Richard_Tyndall said:
It wouldn't work for two reasons. Firstly because it would do huge damage to NI economy and secondly because the Unionists would never accept it. No matter how much you might like the idea it is a non starter.surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
ly after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.0 -
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Do you suffer from a massive irony deficit ? I thought you were intelligent a few years back. What went wrong ?Sunil_Prasannan said:
"London" isn't a EU member-state - the UK is, however.surbiton said:
I know the subsidised voted to Leave so that London will still look after them.Sunil_Prasannan said:
UKsurbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
LEAVE 52%
REMAIN 48%0 -
Magic money tree!surbiton said:
Cake and eat it. Are we prepared to pay the commitments we have entered into ?PeterC said:
Surely any arrangement which creates hard borders nd possible barriers to trade within a soverign state is a non-starter. A simple no-strings-attached FTA covering goods between the UK and the EU would diffuse the situation. Or ROI could leave the EU and form a free trade area with he UK.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].Richard_Tyndall said:
It wouldn't work for two reasons. Firstly because it would do huge damage to NI economy and secondly because the Unionists would never accept it. No matter how much you might like the idea it is a non starter.surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
ly after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
0 -
They are structured with a UK company acting as agent for an Irish company. Perhaps post Brexit we can stop that sort of behaviour?foxinsoxuk said:
Their 3% commision on that turnover is about £20 million in income, so 1% paid in tax. It seems a case to answer.FrancisUrquhart said:This is such a disingenuous way of reporting a companies finances,
Airbnb, the accommodation website, paid less than £200,000 in UK corporation tax last year despite collecting £657m of rental payments for property owners.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41543449
It is like saying a bank handled 100 trillion dollars of transactions last year but only paid £x million in tax.
But the BBC is doing itself no favours. Even on the facts there is a case to answer - there's no need to exaggerate0 -
Yes, I know, and Le Carre is a europhile himself, but the quote is valid and an apt one.glw said:
Having also read the new book, and virtually everything else le Carré has written, it's worth pointing out that Smiley's affinity to Europe is a cultural one, and in particular to Germany, and bugger all to do with the EU and Brexit.Casino_Royale said:Thank you for making my point for me.
It's a theme that goes right back to the early novels, as Smiley questions what he and the service are fighting for, Smiley being jaded with the idea of fighting for King and Country during the war, or Capitalism post-war, and more inclined to fight for older and higher values as he sees them, what might broadly be described as Civilisation (in a Kenneth Clark sense, not the more literal sense).
It occurs to me that in the Smiley novels the only character with any significant political motivation is Bill Haydon, the traitor.0 -
We voted as the UK as a whole, remember?surbiton said:
Do you suffer from a massive irony deficit ?Sunil_Prasannan said:
"London" isn't a EU member-state - the UK is, however.surbiton said:
I know the subsidised voted to Leave so that London will still look after them.Sunil_Prasannan said:
UKsurbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
LEAVE 52%
REMAIN 48%
I thought YOU were intelligent a few years back. What went wrong ?0 -
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.0 -
Which seems perfectly acceptable to me and should be to both sides in Ireland.surbiton said:
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.0 -
I am an European first.Casino_Royale said:
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.surbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
The report will make sober reading for Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, who came to office this summer warning that Ireland would not design a border for the Brexiteers.
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.0 -
Another option is that (as for UK-France on either side of schengen) EIRE and the UK agree to put customs officers at each other's ports and airports and check lorries and planes as they embark/disembark upon the island of Ireland and monitor the goods origins and destinations electronically, with random spot inspections to check compliance at depots in NI and EIRE respectively.surbiton said:
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
This might require both the UK and EU to be a bit flexible but it's perfectly possible.0 -
I am a Brexiter? Not sure really.surbiton said:
Cake and eat it. Are we prepared to pay the commitments we have entered into ? You [ Brexiters ] seem to imply that the UK has a God given right to have free trade agreement with the EU. We do not. If preconditions are not met then we are in the WTO.PeterC said:
Surely any arrangement which creates hard borders nd possible barriers to trade within a soverign state is a non-starter. A simple no-strings-attached FTA covering goods between the UK and the EU would diffuse the situation. Or ROI could leave the EU and form a free trade area with he UK.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].Richard_Tyndall said:
Itarter.surbiton said:
There is a simple soluRichard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
ly after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
Af
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course we are not entitled to a FTA. But it is becoming increasingly apparent that the Irish border is the real hot potato. No one wants a border and it is a matter of mutual self-interest to avoid one. That is where the FTA comes in and everyone gets to have his cake and eat it. Is the EU up for it?0 -
Can this magic electronic border be built by March 2021, given how long it is taking to get Universal Credit working?Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
0 -
That is what will happen in the end. The "car boot" will be "nodded through".Richard_Tyndall said:
Which seems perfectly acceptable to me and should be to both sides in Ireland.surbiton said:
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
But it cannot be a "seamless" border as the UK position paper suggests.0 -
Bye bye then.surbiton said:
I am an European first.Casino_Royale said:
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.surbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.0 -
Aaargh!! Where was the spoiler alert?!glw said:
Having also read the new book, and virtually everything else le Carré has written, it's worth pointing out that Smiley's affinity to Europe is a cultural one, and in particular to Germany, and bugger all to do with the EU and Brexit.Casino_Royale said:Thank you for making my point for me.
It's a theme that goes right back to the early novels, as Smiley questions what he and the service are fighting for, Smiley being jaded with the idea of fighting for King and Country during the war, or Capitalism post-war, and more inclined to fight for older and higher values as he sees them, what might broadly be described as Civilisation (in a Kenneth Clark sense, not the more literal sense).
It occurs to me that in the Smiley novels the only character with any significant political motivation is Bill Haydon, the traitor. 0 -
So the UK leaves the single market union and will still have free trade facilities ? Why should the EU accept it ? Someone leaving a club cannot be expected to enjoy the same facilities as that of a member.PeterC said:
I am a Brexiter? Not sure really.surbiton said:
Cake and eat it. Are we prepared to pay the commitments we have entered into ? You [ Brexiters ] seem to imply that the UK has a God given right to have free trade agreement with the EU. We do not. If preconditions are not met then we are in the WTO.PeterC said:
Surely any arrangement which creates hard borders nd possible barriers to trade within a soverign state is a non-starter. A simple no-strings-attached FTA covering goods between the UK and the EU would diffuse the situation. Or ROI could leave the EU and form a free trade area with he UK.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].Richard_Tyndall said:
Itarter.surbiton said:
There is a simple soluRichard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
ly after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
Af
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course we are not entitled to a FTA. But it is becoming increasingly apparent that the Irish border is the real hot potato. No one wants a border and it is a matter of mutual self-interest to avoid one. That is where the FTA comes in and everyone gets to have his cake and eat it. Is the EU up for it?
Would the EU of 390m people really give the UK a "free" prize just not to have a border in Ireland ? I doubt it.0 -
Who knows. That is practicalities. What I am answering is the claims that there is nothing that can be done other than a hard border at the NI/Eire border or at the Irish Sea. These are clearly not the only options as I have just shown and the continued claims that they are simply discredit the Remainers.No_Offence_Alan said:
Can this magic electronic border be built by March 2021, given how long it is taking to get Universal Credit working?Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.0 -
Seems pretty seamless to me. As it will to everyone who is actually using it.surbiton said:
That is what will happen in the end. The "car boot" will be "nodded through".Richard_Tyndall said:
Which seems perfectly acceptable to me and should be to both sides in Ireland.surbiton said:
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
But it cannot be a "seamless" border as the UK position paper suggests.0 -
Even the most amazing technical solution imaginable falls down on two counts:surbiton said:
That is what will happen in the end. The "car boot" will be "nodded through".Richard_Tyndall said:
Which seems perfectly acceptable to me and should be to both sides in Ireland.surbiton said:
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
But it cannot be a "seamless" border as the UK position paper suggests.
- May has already ruled out any physical infrastructure at the border.
- Creating new red tape for businesses trading across the border goes against the aims of the Good Friday Agreement and inhibits North-South economic integration.0 -
You're castigating a fictional character. Even by PB standards, that's a bit strange.MarqueeMark said:
Shame that mission was never exposed to democratic scrutiny, George.williamglenn said:As George Smiley more recently says, “I’m a European, Peter. If I had a mission – if I were ever aware of one beyond our business with the enemy, it was to Europe. If I was heartless, I was heartless for Europe. If I had an unattainable ideal, it was of leading Europe out of her darkness towards a new age of reason. I have it still.”
Oh, it was. You lost.....0 -
In which case you have my pity.surbiton said:
I am an European first.0 -
I think you confuse London as an economic entity with residents of London. When you look at welfare payments Londoners receive huge subsidies so they can live there - nearly 30 per cent are on housing benefit. And rather a lot of Londons wealth is generated by commuters and visitors who don't live or vote there.surbiton said:
I know the subsidised voted to Leave so that London will still look after them.Sunil_Prasannan said:
UKsurbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
LEAVE 52%
REMAIN 48%
First, we will have duty free access of NZ dairy products. That will bankrupt half the UK dairy farmers. Then we will bring in $2 chlorinated chicken and that will bankrupt half of the chicken producers.
And a complete stop to all subsidies to farmers.
London as an economic entity may support the UK - London voters not to much.0 -
Tariffs ? If we do not end up with a FTA ?Casino_Royale said:
Another option is that (as for UK-France on either side of schengen) EIRE and the UK agree to put customs officers at each other's ports and airports and check lorries and planes as they embark/disembark upon the island of Ireland and monitor the goods origins and destinations electronically, with random spot inspections to check compliance at depots in NI and EIRE respectively.surbiton said:
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
This might require both the UK and EU to be a bit flexible but it's perfectly possible.
What you are suggesting is still a customs border. OK, the lite version.0 -
I thought it was the UK that was leaving!Casino_Royale said:
Bye bye then.surbiton said:
I am an European first.Casino_Royale said:
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.surbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.
I'd still like to see the option be left open for those of us that want to retain our EU citizenship to be able to do so; I've no objection to those who wish to lose theirs doing so.0 -
I see no issue with you retaining EU citizenship. I do wonder why the EU would offer it though given it would make no difference to the Brexit agreement. All it would effectively do is put extra commitments on the EU but none on the UK.Benpointer said:
I thought it was the UK that was leaving!Casino_Royale said:
Bye bye then.surbiton said:
I am an European first.Casino_Royale said:
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.surbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.
I'd still like to see the option be left open for those of us that want to retain our EU citizenship to be able to do so; I've no objection to those who wish to lose theirs doing so.0 -
40+ years is long enough to dispense with such warnings, and it's such a good book you can't really spoil it. I've read it several times and I think it get more out of it each time.Benpointer said:Aaargh!! Where was the spoiler alert?!
0 -
-
I haven't said there won't be a customs border. It's how to manage it that's open to debate.surbiton said:
Tariffs ? If we do not end up with a FTA ?Casino_Royale said:
Another option is that (as for UK-France on either side of schengen) EIRE and the UK agree to put customs officers at each other's ports and airports and check lorries and planes as they embark/disembark upon the island of Ireland and monitor the goods origins and destinations electronically, with random spot inspections to check compliance at depots in NI and EIRE respectively.surbiton said:
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
This might require both the UK and EU to be a bit flexible but it's perfectly possible.
What you are suggesting is still a customs border. OK, the lite version.0 -
That's been pointed out a few times on here. Why the EU seems to think it might be a clever wheeze on their part is beyond me.Richard_Tyndall said:I see no issue with you retaining EU citizenship. I do wonder why the EU would offer it though given it would make no difference to the Brexit agreement. All it would effectively do is put extra commitments on the EU but none on the UK.
0 -
-
You can retain it via dual nationality of an EU member state.Benpointer said:
I thought it was the UK that was leaving!Casino_Royale said:
Bye bye then.surbiton said:
I am an European first.Casino_Royale said:
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.surbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.
I'd still like to see the option be left open for those of us that want to retain our EU citizenship to be able to do so; I've no objection to those who wish to lose theirs doing so.
I expect the UK- EU to agree fairly flexible working and residential rights but, there will be limits.
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.0 -
glw said:
40+ years is long enough to dispense with such warnings, and it's such a good book you can't really spoil it. I've read it several times and I think it get more out of it each time.Benpointer said:Aaargh!! Where was the spoiler alert?!
That's fair enough - and I agree, in some ways it's more delicious knowing who the traitor is as you read it. 0 -
Or, he can move to Brussels where he can prostrate himself loyally at the gates of the Parliament and offer to buff Juncker's shoes for free every day as it would be "an honour".MaxPB said:
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.surbiton said:I am an European first.
0 -
Only if I were resident in another state, or had some other connection.Casino_Royale said:
You can retain it via dual nationality of an EU member state.Benpointer said:
I thought it was the UK that was leaving!Casino_Royale said:
Bye bye then.surbiton said:
I am an European first.Casino_Royale said:
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.surbiton said:
London:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%surbiton said:
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.foxinsoxuk said:
Leicester voted Remain too!surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/08/post-brexit-invisible-border-is-impossible-says-irish-report
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
REMAIN 48%
LEAVE 40%
REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.
I'd still like to see the option be left open for those of us that want to retain our EU citizenship to be able to do so; I've no objection to those who wish to lose theirs doing so.
I expect the UK- EU to agree fairly flexible working and residential rights but, there will be limits.
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
If you have "zero interest in any other citizenship than British" I hope you are not amongst those PBers who plan to bugger off abroad to avoid taxes if/when Labour get in!0 -
surbiton said:
Brexitter
-------------
New words by Sunil, original music by Marc Almond & Dave Ball.
Friday morning going slow
I'm watching the election show
Lots of Ladbrokes slips on the floor
Memories of the night before
Out knocking up and having fun
Now I've stopped reading The Sun
Waiting for the results to show
But why I voted no one knows
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
I think it's time to write a thread
To vent the bemusement in my head
Spent my money on online bookies
Got nowt here but all the cookies
Clean my suit and my rosette
Election promises to forget
Start campaigning all over again
Kid myself I'm having fun
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
Looking out from my worldview
I've really nothing else to do
Seems like I have started fretting
Let's read Political Betting
Forget The Mirror and The Times
The battle bus with such great lines
Look around and I can see
A thousand punters just like me
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
(I'm waiting for Brexit
Or am I wasting time)
0 -
An interesting link, thank you. Unfortunately I disagree with him on certain points (and on his insistence on treating Anywheres as some strange malevolent species, like a deep-sea angler fish that must be held at arm's length lest it bite). Particularly his final paragraph "But that could change. If the EU makes unfair demands and is demonstrably the cause of negotiation failure the vast majority of Brits could come together to make a success of our journey over that cliff edge."Mortimer said:Not sure if already posted, but David Goodhart seems bang on the money here, to me:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/08/britons-need-to-rediscover-the-ties-that-bind-brexit
Last three paragraphs seemed particularly pertinent.
I've spoken before about "failing and blaming" - the Leaver tendency to seek not success but instead seek failure in order to blame the EU. This can be expressed as a spectrum, varying from "well we tried our best but - hey, what can you do" to "the EU is a malevolent force who deliberately attacked us so we must retaliate". The former "bakes in" failure and reduces us to children, and the latter is actively dangerous. I suspect that "failing and blaming" will become increasingly important in the years ahead and make things worse than they already are, and I think Goodhart will be part of that, and not an unwilling one.0 -
glw said:
That's been pointed out a few times on here. Why the EU seems to think it might be a clever wheeze on their part is beyond me.Richard_Tyndall said:I see no issue with you retaining EU citizenship. I do wonder why the EU would offer it though given it would make no difference to the Brexit agreement. All it would effectively do is put extra commitments on the EU but none on the UK.
I think it's a 'hearts & minds' thing from the EU perspective. However, I seem to remember the UK government have said they will not countenance it.0 -
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a statesurbiton said:0 -
Because you couldn't convince enough of your fellow citizens that they shouldn't give up theirs.surbiton said:
Of course, you can still keep that European passport.
Just don't try and force one on the rest of us.0 -
Wonderfully, it's not in the EU.williamglenn said:0 -
As brexit has two syllables you don't double the final consonant before adding "-er" or "-ing"Sunil_Prasannan said:
To help you there is this:
http://www.theschoolhouse.us/lessons/lesson17.html
0 -
No such thing as an EU passport or EU citizenship. You are a citizen of a member country which has voted to leave. You can either live with that or apply for citizenship in a country which is not leaving. May I suggest the Catalan region of Spain.surbiton said:0 -
Boris Johnson will 'just say no' if Theresa May tries to sack him amid calls for 'miserable' Philip Hammond to face axe
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/08/exclusive-boris-johnson-will-just-say-no-theresa-may-tries-sack/0 -
ugh, sorry Sunil I was using the American bastardised rule. You are correct.geoffw said:
As brexit has two syllables you don't double the final consonant before adding "-er" or "-ing"Sunil_Prasannan said:
To help you there is this:
http://www.theschoolhouse.us/lessons/lesson17.html
0 -
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
0 -
It's good to see the Tory infighting is all resolved now, eh?FrancisUrquhart said:Boris Johnson will 'just say no' if Theresa May tries to sack him amid calls for 'miserable' Philip Hammond to face axe
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/08/exclusive-boris-johnson-will-just-say-no-theresa-may-tries-sack/0 -
I was pointing out the irony of you telling somebody to leave the UK and go live in Germanistan when you had left the UK to go live in Switzerland, a country that speaks German and has a border with Germany.MaxPB said:0 -
Louis Theroux's new documentary on heroin in Huntington WV is well worth catching. Powerful stuff from one of the reddest of red states.
https://twitter.com/BBCTwo/status/9171287337182781440 -
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.0 -
Can we please, once and for all, knock on the head the nonsense that the existence of customs regulations automatically implies that you have to have physical border checks?
There are no physical border checks today at the Irish border. That doesn't mean there are no laws or formalities governing what you can bring across the border, as you would rapidly discover if you drove a van from Northern Ireland across the border, loaded it up with Jameson whiskey, drove back, and started selling it to pubs in Belfast.
So, if, for example, we agree with our EU friends that there should be no restrictions on agricultural products from farms on either side of the border, that doesn't automatically mean there would have to be physical border checks to ensure that American beef isn't being smuggled through illegally.
Once we know what the trade agreement, if any, is going to be, all this kind of issue can be discussed and resolved. But first we need to sort out what regulations exactly we are trying to implement.0 -
And yet the public want Theresa May to see Brexit through. 42% in Sky poll tonight want her to continue and a vox pop in Putney seemed to affirm it.Benpointer said:
It's good to see the Tory infighting is all resolved now, eh?FrancisUrquhart said:Boris Johnson will 'just say no' if Theresa May tries to sack him amid calls for 'miserable' Philip Hammond to face axe
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/08/exclusive-boris-johnson-will-just-say-no-theresa-may-tries-sack/
She has had a dreadful time and less mortals would have been broken but her stoicism does seem to be proving popular and in good news tonight the Danish Foreign Minister has attacked Brussels for the politics demanding that trade talks begin.
The first sign of a crack in Europe0 -
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.Benpointer said:0 -
How can he refuse to be sacked? Presumably the civil service will take their instructions from the PM rather than him and remove all his FO rights and access etc. And the new Foreign Secretary will perform the role (rather better than he has done).FrancisUrquhart said:Boris Johnson will 'just say no' if Theresa May tries to sack him amid calls for 'miserable' Philip Hammond to face axe
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/08/exclusive-boris-johnson-will-just-say-no-theresa-may-tries-sack/0 -
I think being British it's very clear to Johnny Foreigner when you turn up that his borders and his rules are simply local traditions. Proper, British, goings on have to surround you in your progress through his territories. I'm sure that border guards throughout the civilised world (and France too) acknowledge the truth of something so basic.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
0 -
And what would you discover if you tried to do this?Richard_Nabavi said:There are no physical border checks today at the Irish border. That doesn't mean there are no laws or formalities governing what you can bring across the border, as you would rapidly discover if you drove a van from Northern Ireland across the border, loaded it up with Jameson whiskey, drove back, and started selling it to pubs in Belfast.
0 -
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.RobD said:
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.Benpointer said:0 -
So people in the UK that don't pay taxes aren't citizens in your eyes?Benpointer said:
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.RobD said:
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.Benpointer said:0 -
Do you know, that's a legitimate question! Pause. That's quite rare for PB.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a statesurbiton said:
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.0 -
His almost suicidal bravery when dealing with some of the nastiest and most unpredictable people on earth never ceases to amaze me. I think he is an amazing journalist of a type that are few and far between today.foxinsoxuk said:Louis Theroux's new documentary on heroin in Huntington WV is well worth catching. Powerful stuff from one of the reddest of red states.
https://twitter.com/BBCTwo/status/9171287337182781440 -
Omnium said:
I think being British it's very clear to Johnny Foreigner when you turn up that his borders and his rules are simply local traditions. Proper, British, goings on have to surround you in your progress through his territories. I'm sure that border guards throughout the civilised world (and France too) acknowledge the truth of something so basic.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
0 -
As far as I am aware your passport is issued in the Country of your residence, ie British, French, German etc, it is not issued by Brussels as it is not a stateviewcode said:
Do you know, that's a legitimate question! Pause. That's quite rare for PB.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a statesurbiton said:
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.0 -
Benpointer said:
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.RobD said:
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.Benpointer said:
And yet there are hundreds of thousands of people who work in other countries and who are not able to pay UK taxes because of the tax arrangements put in place by the UK Government via reciprocal tax deals. I am afraid that whilst I agree with the sentiment of your idea, the practicality of it is not suited to the modern world.
0 -
I think it means he will decline the offer of any other job, so force her to sack him rather than just downgrade him.Benpointer said:
How can he refuse to be sacked? Presumably the civil service will take their instructions from the PM rather than him and remove all his FO rights and access etc. And the new Foreign Secretary will perform the role (rather better than he has done).FrancisUrquhart said:Boris Johnson will 'just say no' if Theresa May tries to sack him amid calls for 'miserable' Philip Hammond to face axe
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/08/exclusive-boris-johnson-will-just-say-no-theresa-may-tries-sack/0 -
I agree, it was a good question from Big_G, although for me, it's not so much about the passport as the rights I have being an EU citizen... FoM across the EU for one. I think of an EU passport as evidencing those rights.viewcode said:
Do you know, that's a legitimate question! Pause. That's quite rare for PB.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a statesurbiton said:
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.0 -
Arse, I collapsed the blockquotes wrong. My bad, apols.Benpointer said:Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me.
0 -
Louis Thereoux's documentaries would be fascinating were it not for Louis Thereoux.foxinsoxuk said:Louis Theroux's new documentary on heroin in Huntington WV is well worth catching. Powerful stuff from one of the reddest of red states.
https://twitter.com/BBCTwo/status/917128733718278144
There's something about the man's manner I just can't stand.
0 -
That is because your culture is global.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.
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Ah right, it's behind their paywall so I can't read it. If that's what the article says the headline is misleading: "Boris Johnson will 'just say no' if Theresa May tries to sack him amid calls for 'miserable' Philip Hammond to face axe"Ishmael_Z said:
I think it means he will decline the offer of any other job, so force her to sack him rather than just downgrade him.Benpointer said:
How can he refuse to be sacked? Presumably the civil service will take their instructions from the PM rather than him and remove all his FO rights and access etc. And the new Foreign Secretary will perform the role (rather better than he has done).FrancisUrquhart said:Boris Johnson will 'just say no' if Theresa May tries to sack him amid calls for 'miserable' Philip Hammond to face axe
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/08/exclusive-boris-johnson-will-just-say-no-theresa-may-tries-sack/
... but that's only to be expected with the Torygraph these days.
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For you, perhaps. For me, it's the core part of my identity, not a commodity.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Which might explain why we were on opposite sides of the argument.0 -
That HMRC are not entirely happy.williamglenn said:And what would you discover if you tried to do this?
Having said that, as I understand it the main trade at the moment is in cigarettes going south. The Irish government doesn't seem to think this requires a hard physical border. So why should it require a hard physical border on the off-chance that, despite the absurdity of the economics, people started smuggling chlorine-cleaned chickens across the border?0 -
No worries - it's easily done. Blockquotes is a black art which I will never master!viewcode said:
Arse, I collapsed the blockquotes wrong. My bad, apols.Benpointer said:Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me.
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Supposedly Alistair Darling did when El Gord tried to sack him from CotE....Benpointer said:
How can he refuse to be sacked? Presumably the civil service will take their instructions from the PM rather than him and remove all his FO rights and access etc. And the new Foreign Secretary will perform the role (rather better than he has done).FrancisUrquhart said:Boris Johnson will 'just say no' if Theresa May tries to sack him amid calls for 'miserable' Philip Hammond to face axe
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/08/exclusive-boris-johnson-will-just-say-no-theresa-may-tries-sack/0 -
Brilliant, but man, it was bleak.foxinsoxuk said:Louis Theroux's new documentary on heroin in Huntington WV is well worth catching. Powerful stuff from one of the reddest of red states.
https://twitter.com/BBCTwo/status/917128733718278144
I'm not looking forward to the last episode if it has a status update on the people appearing in it.0 -
Nationalism is a shop-soiled word.YBarddCwsc said:
That is because your culture is global.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.
I believe to mean a world of nation states, but it's been coloured in the modern age to mean being a bit Hitlery.0 -
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It probably does Casino; each trying; but probably failing, to understand the other.Casino_Royale said:
For you, perhaps. For me, it's the core part of my identity, not a commodity.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Which might explain why we were on opposite sides of the argument.
However, we'd no doubt get on fine over a few beers 0
