“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
The report suggests local frontier points will have to be agreed with the UK, and says it is “not inconceivable” there will be eight crossing points, including a permanent customs post on the M1 between Dublin and Belfast.
The report will make sober reading for Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, who came to office this summer warning that Ireland would not design a border for the Brexiteers.
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Trade can only be a UK wide policy if the UK is to remain a single market.
The UK couldn't have a foreign organisation effectively responsible for its trade policy in large parts of its territory that might diverge from Westminster.
The scenario above does not mean the rUK will have to be in the single market. The UK except NI can be outside the customs union with NI being inside.
You're drawing diametrically the wrong conclusion. The Irish position is that if the UK (or NI at least) leaves the customs union then a border is inevitable. That means that trade talks are irrelevant to the political dimension. It's the UK trying to pretend that leaving the customs union can somehow be achieved while maintaining no border. Pressure needs to be brought to bear on the UK government until they accept reality.
Ireland are stuffed then, aren't they? As things stand, on March 29th 2019 the borders will, under EU law, have to go up. They've made no plans to set up the infrastructure, and, even if they had, as the article makes clear their economy will be decimated. And yet the EU27 still refuse to talk about the ongoing relationship.
The fact that it will also be a disaster for Northern Ireland is hardly going to be much consolation for them, but, if they won't discuss customs and tariff arrangements, then what on earth can the UK do?
EIRE is what will force the EU to compromise, eventually. They'd be hit much harder than the UK by no deal, and are sitting right inside all the EU institutions, right now, making that point.
In practice no deal means no Brexit. The UK doesn't have the [insert suitable descriptor] to do it and would destroy itself if it tried.
William, according to you, any path chosen >insert chosen path here< by the UK results in national immolation except integrating itself into a federal Europe, so I take what you say with more salt than the Dead Sea.
A dismembered United Kingdom, with reunited Ireland, independent Scotland will crawl back into the EU on its belly welcoming the Euro and Schengen....in Mr Glenn world....
As George Smiley says; "because he is a fanatic, and the interesting thing about a fanatic is that they always harbour a secret doubt."
I think William's biggest fear is he might be proven to Ben wrong, hence his ever increasing desperate pronouncements on here of inevitable catastrophe if we don't reverse course(and then some) now.
As George Smiley more recently says, “I’m a European, Peter. If I had a mission – if I were ever aware of one beyond our business with the enemy, it was to Europe. If I was heartless, I was heartless for Europe. If I had an unattainable ideal, it was of leading Europe out of her darkness towards a new age of reason. I have it still.”
You're drawing diametrically the wrong conclusion. The Irish position is that if the UK (or NI at least) leaves the customs union then a border is inevitable. That means that trade talks are irrelevant to the political dimension. It's the UK trying to pretend that leaving the customs union can somehow be achieved while maintaining no border. Pressure needs to be brought to bear on the UK government until they accept reality.
Ireland are stuffed then, aren't they? As things stand, on March 29th 2019 the borders will, under EU law, have to go up. They've made no plans to set up the infrastructure, and, even if they had, as the article makes clear their economy will be decimated. And yet the EU27 still refuse to talk about the ongoing relationship.
The fact that it will also be a disaster for Northern Ireland is hardly going to be much consolation for them, but, if they won't discuss customs and tariff arrangements, then what on earth can the UK do?
EIRE is what will force the EU to compromise, eventually. They'd be hit much harder than the UK by no deal, and are sitting right inside all the EU institutions, right now, making that point.
In practice no deal means no Brexit. The UK doesn't have the [insert suitable descriptor] to do it and would destroy itself if it tried.
William, according to you, any path chosen >insert chosen path here< by the UK results in national immolation except integrating itself into a federal Europe, so I take what you say with more salt than the Dead Sea.
A dismembered United Kingdom, with reunited Ireland, independent Scotland will crawl back into the EU on its belly welcoming the Euro and Schengen....in Mr Glenn world....
As George Smiley says; "because he is a fanatic, and the interesting thing about a fanatic is that they always harbour a secret doubt."
I think William's biggest fear is he might be proven to Ben wrong, hence his ever increasing desperate pronouncements on here of inevitable catastrophe if we don't reverse course(and then some) now.
As George Smiley more recently says, “I’m a European, Peter. If I had a mission – if I were ever aware of one beyond our business with the enemy, it was to Europe. If I was heartless, I was heartless for Europe. If I had an unattainable ideal, it was of leading Europe out of her darkness towards a new age of reason. I have it still.”
Shame that mission was never exposed to democratic scrutiny, George.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
The report suggests local frontier points will have to be agreed with the UK, and says it is “not inconceivable” there will be eight crossing points, including a permanent customs post on the M1 between Dublin and Belfast.
The report will make sober reading for Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, who came to office this summer warning that Ireland would not design a border for the Brexiteers.
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
It wouldn't work for two reasons. Firstly because it would do huge damage to NI economy and secondly because the Unionists would never accept it. No matter how much you might like the idea it is a non starter.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
The report will make sober reading for Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, who came to office this summer warning that Ireland would not design a border for the Brexiteers.
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Having also read the new book, and virtually everything else le Carré has written, it's worth pointing out that Smiley's affinity to Europe is a cultural one, and in particular to Germany, and bugger all to do with the EU and Brexit.
It's a theme that goes right back to the early novels, as Smiley questions what he and the service are fighting for, Smiley being jaded with the idea of fighting for King and Country during the war, or Capitalism post-war, and more inclined to fight for older and higher values as he sees them, what might broadly be described as Civilisation (in a Kenneth Clark sense, not the more literal sense).
It occurs to me that in the Smiley novels the only character with any significant political motivation is Bill Haydon, the traitor.
I see the BBC online report on Catalonia quotes an MP of the main party saying the plan is not to UDI on Tuesday, but make a symbolic statement talking about setting off along a path leading to independence. Not sure if that exactly makes an unsalvageable situation salvageable, but it is something.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
The report suggests local frontier points will have to be agreed with the UK, and says it is “not inconceivable” there will be eight crossing points, including a permanent customs post on the M1 between Dublin and Belfast.
The report will make sober reading for Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, who came to office this summer warning that Ireland would not design a border for the Brexiteers.
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
UK LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
I know the subsidised voted to Leave so that London will still look after them.
First, we will have duty free access of NZ dairy products. That will bankrupt half the UK dairy farmers. Then we will bring in $2 chlorinated chicken and that will bankrupt half of the chicken producers.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
ly after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
It wouldn't work for two reasons. Firstly because it would do huge damage to NI economy and secondly because the Unionists would never accept it. No matter how much you might like the idea it is a non starter.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Surely any arrangement which creates hard borders and possible barriers to trade within a soverign state is a non-starter. A simple no-strings-attached FTA covering goods between the UK and the EU would diffuse the situation. Or ROI could leave the EU and form a free trade area with the UK.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
UK LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
I know the subsidised voted to Leave so that London will still look after them.
"London" isn't a EU member-state - the UK is, however.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
ly after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
It wouldn't work for two reasons. Firstly because it would do huge damage to NI economy and secondly because the Unionists would never accept it. No matter how much you might like the idea it is a non starter.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Surely any arrangement which creates hard borders nd possible barriers to trade within a soverign state is a non-starter. A simple no-strings-attached FTA covering goods between the UK and the EU would diffuse the situation. Or ROI could leave the EU and form a free trade area with he UK.
Cake and eat it. Are we prepared to pay the commitments we have entered into ? You [ Brexiters ] seem to imply that the UK has a God given right to have free trade agreement with the EU. We do not. If preconditions are not met then we are in the WTO.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
UK LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
I know the subsidised voted to Leave so that London will still look after them.
"London" isn't a EU member-state - the UK is, however.
Do you suffer from a massive irony deficit ? I thought you were intelligent a few years back. What went wrong ?
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
ly after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
It wouldn't work for two reasons. Firstly because it would do huge damage to NI economy and secondly because the Unionists would never accept it. No matter how much you might like the idea it is a non starter.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Surely any arrangement which creates hard borders nd possible barriers to trade within a soverign state is a non-starter. A simple no-strings-attached FTA covering goods between the UK and the EU would diffuse the situation. Or ROI could leave the EU and form a free trade area with he UK.
Cake and eat it. Are we prepared to pay the commitments we have entered into ?
This is such a disingenuous way of reporting a companies finances,
Airbnb, the accommodation website, paid less than £200,000 in UK corporation tax last year despite collecting £657m of rental payments for property owners.
Having also read the new book, and virtually everything else le Carré has written, it's worth pointing out that Smiley's affinity to Europe is a cultural one, and in particular to Germany, and bugger all to do with the EU and Brexit.
It's a theme that goes right back to the early novels, as Smiley questions what he and the service are fighting for, Smiley being jaded with the idea of fighting for King and Country during the war, or Capitalism post-war, and more inclined to fight for older and higher values as he sees them, what might broadly be described as Civilisation (in a Kenneth Clark sense, not the more literal sense).
It occurs to me that in the Smiley novels the only character with any significant political motivation is Bill Haydon, the traitor.
Yes, I know, and Le Carre is a europhile himself, but the quote is valid and an apt one.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
UK LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
I know the subsidised voted to Leave so that London will still look after them.
"London" isn't a EU member-state - the UK is, however.
Do you suffer from a massive irony deficit ?
We voted as the UK as a whole, remember?
I thought YOU were intelligent a few years back. What went wrong ?
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.
Which seems perfectly acceptable to me and should be to both sides in Ireland.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
The report will make sober reading for Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, who came to office this summer warning that Ireland would not design a border for the Brexiteers.
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.
Another option is that (as for UK-France on either side of schengen) EIRE and the UK agree to put customs officers at each other's ports and airports and check lorries and planes as they embark/disembark upon the island of Ireland and monitor the goods origins and destinations electronically, with random spot inspections to check compliance at depots in NI and EIRE respectively.
This might require both the UK and EU to be a bit flexible but it's perfectly possible.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
ly after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solu
Af The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Itarter.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Surely any arrangement which creates hard borders nd possible barriers to trade within a soverign state is a non-starter. A simple no-strings-attached FTA covering goods between the UK and the EU would diffuse the situation. Or ROI could leave the EU and form a free trade area with he UK.
Cake and eat it. Are we prepared to pay the commitments we have entered into ? You [ Brexiters ] seem to imply that the UK has a God given right to have free trade agreement with the EU. We do not. If preconditions are not met then we are in the WTO.
I am a Brexiter? Not sure really.
Of course we are not entitled to a FTA. But it is becoming increasingly apparent that the Irish border is the real hot potato. No one wants a border and it is a matter of mutual self-interest to avoid one. That is where the FTA comes in and everyone gets to have his cake and eat it. Is the EU up for it?
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border.
Can this magic electronic border be built by March 2021, given how long it is taking to get Universal Credit working?
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.
Which seems perfectly acceptable to me and should be to both sides in Ireland.
That is what will happen in the end. The "car boot" will be "nodded through".
But it cannot be a "seamless" border as the UK position paper suggests.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
The leak, which comes as the fifth round of Brexit talks start in Brussels, could change the balance in negotiations and put pressure on EU leaders to help Ireland find a solution.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Having also read the new book, and virtually everything else le Carré has written, it's worth pointing out that Smiley's affinity to Europe is a cultural one, and in particular to Germany, and bugger all to do with the EU and Brexit.
It's a theme that goes right back to the early novels, as Smiley questions what he and the service are fighting for, Smiley being jaded with the idea of fighting for King and Country during the war, or Capitalism post-war, and more inclined to fight for older and higher values as he sees them, what might broadly be described as Civilisation (in a Kenneth Clark sense, not the more literal sense).
It occurs to me that in the Smiley novels the only character with any significant political motivation is Bill Haydon, the traitor.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
ly after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solu
Af The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Itarter.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Surely any arrangement which creates hard borders nd possible barriers to trade within a soverign state is a non-starter. A simple no-strings-attached FTA covering goods between the UK and the EU would diffuse the situation. Or ROI could leave the EU and form a free trade area with he UK.
Cake and eat it. Are we prepared to pay the commitments we have entered into ? You [ Brexiters ] seem to imply that the UK has a God given right to have free trade agreement with the EU. We do not. If preconditions are not met then we are in the WTO.
I am a Brexiter? Not sure really.
Of course we are not entitled to a FTA. But it is becoming increasingly apparent that the Irish border is the real hot potato. No one wants a border and it is a matter of mutual self-interest to avoid one. That is where the FTA comes in and everyone gets to have his cake and eat it. Is the EU up for it?
So the UK leaves the single market union and will still have free trade facilities ? Why should the EU accept it ? Someone leaving a club cannot be expected to enjoy the same facilities as that of a member.
Would the EU of 390m people really give the UK a "free" prize just not to have a border in Ireland ? I doubt it.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border.
Can this magic electronic border be built by March 2021, given how long it is taking to get Universal Credit working?
Who knows. That is practicalities. What I am answering is the claims that there is nothing that can be done other than a hard border at the NI/Eire border or at the Irish Sea. These are clearly not the only options as I have just shown and the continued claims that they are simply discredit the Remainers.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.
Which seems perfectly acceptable to me and should be to both sides in Ireland.
That is what will happen in the end. The "car boot" will be "nodded through".
But it cannot be a "seamless" border as the UK position paper suggests.
Seems pretty seamless to me. As it will to everyone who is actually using it.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.
Which seems perfectly acceptable to me and should be to both sides in Ireland.
That is what will happen in the end. The "car boot" will be "nodded through".
But it cannot be a "seamless" border as the UK position paper suggests.
Even the most amazing technical solution imaginable falls down on two counts:
- May has already ruled out any physical infrastructure at the border. - Creating new red tape for businesses trading across the border goes against the aims of the Good Friday Agreement and inhibits North-South economic integration.
As George Smiley more recently says, “I’m a European, Peter. If I had a mission – if I were ever aware of one beyond our business with the enemy, it was to Europe. If I was heartless, I was heartless for Europe. If I had an unattainable ideal, it was of leading Europe out of her darkness towards a new age of reason. I have it still.”
Shame that mission was never exposed to democratic scrutiny, George.
Oh, it was. You lost.....
You're castigating a fictional character. Even by PB standards, that's a bit strange.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
It makes plain that customs checks on the south side of the border will be unavoidable under EU law.
Up to now the EU’s efforts have been focused on putting pressure on the UK to come up with a means of achieving the “seamless and frictionless border” that Theresa May and Varadkar’s predecessor Enda Kenny had promised after the Brexit vote.
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
UK LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
I know the subsidised voted to Leave so that London will still look after them.
First, we will have duty free access of NZ dairy products. That will bankrupt half the UK dairy farmers. Then we will bring in $2 chlorinated chicken and that will bankrupt half of the chicken producers.
And a complete stop to all subsidies to farmers.
I think you confuse London as an economic entity with residents of London. When you look at welfare payments Londoners receive huge subsidies so they can live there - nearly 30 per cent are on housing benefit. And rather a lot of Londons wealth is generated by commuters and visitors who don't live or vote there.
London as an economic entity may support the UK - London voters not to much.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.
Another option is that (as for UK-France on either side of schengen) EIRE and the UK agree to put customs officers at each other's ports and airports and check lorries and planes as they embark/disembark upon the island of Ireland and monitor the goods origins and destinations electronically, with random spot inspections to check compliance at depots in NI and EIRE respectively.
This might require both the UK and EU to be a bit flexible but it's perfectly possible.
Tariffs ? If we do not end up with a FTA ?
What you are suggesting is still a customs border. OK, the lite version.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.
I am an European first.
Bye bye then.
I thought it was the UK that was leaving!
I'd still like to see the option be left open for those of us that want to retain our EU citizenship to be able to do so; I've no objection to those who wish to lose theirs doing so.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.
I am an European first.
Bye bye then.
I thought it was the UK that was leaving!
I'd still like to see the option be left open for those of us that want to retain our EU citizenship to be able to do so; I've no objection to those who wish to lose theirs doing so.
I see no issue with you retaining EU citizenship. I do wonder why the EU would offer it though given it would make no difference to the Brexit agreement. All it would effectively do is put extra commitments on the EU but none on the UK.
40+ years is long enough to dispense with such warnings, and it's such a good book you can't really spoil it. I've read it several times and I think it get more out of it each time.
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
Agreed. I did not say there has to be a physical border. In fact, there is the paper that suggests that there will be 8 customs points on the border. I believe in the long Norway-Sweden border there are only 9 places where goods can go through but people can cross anywhere without being stopped.
Another option is that (as for UK-France on either side of schengen) EIRE and the UK agree to put customs officers at each other's ports and airports and check lorries and planes as they embark/disembark upon the island of Ireland and monitor the goods origins and destinations electronically, with random spot inspections to check compliance at depots in NI and EIRE respectively.
This might require both the UK and EU to be a bit flexible but it's perfectly possible.
Tariffs ? If we do not end up with a FTA ?
What you are suggesting is still a customs border. OK, the lite version.
I haven't said there won't be a customs border. It's how to manage it that's open to debate.
I see no issue with you retaining EU citizenship. I do wonder why the EU would offer it though given it would make no difference to the Brexit agreement. All it would effectively do is put extra commitments on the EU but none on the UK.
That's been pointed out a few times on here. Why the EU seems to think it might be a clever wheeze on their part is beyond me.
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
A bit of reality leaking in, it seems, with Ireland at least, if not the EU27 as a whole, realising that they can't simply ignore the damage done to themselves if there's no deal. But I fear it's getting very late indeed; it would have been better for everyone if the EU had opened substantive talks on the future relationship with the UK immediately after the referendum result, instead of not even starting now, nearly 18 months later.
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.
I am an European first.
Bye bye then.
I thought it was the UK that was leaving!
I'd still like to see the option be left open for those of us that want to retain our EU citizenship to be able to do so; I've no objection to those who wish to lose theirs doing so.
You can retain it via dual nationality of an EU member state.
I expect the UK- EU to agree fairly flexible working and residential rights but, there will be limits.
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
40+ years is long enough to dispense with such warnings, and it's such a good book you can't really spoil it. I've read it several times and I think it get more out of it each time.
That's fair enough - and I agree, in some ways it's more delicious knowing who the traitor is as you read it.
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.
Or, he can move to Brussels where he can prostrate himself loyally at the gates of the Parliament and offer to buff Juncker's shoes for free every day as it would be "an honour".
“It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EU/UK land frontier.”
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
Leicester voted Remain too!
OK Leicester too. Also, Rushcliffe , Broxtowe and any other place with a sensible population.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
London:
LEAVE 40% REMAIN 60%
We will also have FoM . People from the shires can come and work in London. Since we earn most of the money for this country and subsidise the spongers in the shires, I think it is only fair.
I find it fascinating how the ultras show more loyalty to the European Union than they do to their own countrymen.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.
I am an European first.
Bye bye then.
I thought it was the UK that was leaving!
I'd still like to see the option be left open for those of us that want to retain our EU citizenship to be able to do so; I've no objection to those who wish to lose theirs doing so.
You can retain it via dual nationality of an EU member state.
I expect the UK- EU to agree fairly flexible working and residential rights but, there will be limits.
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Only if I were resident in another state, or had some other connection.
If you have "zero interest in any other citizenship than British" I hope you are not amongst those PBers who plan to bugger off abroad to avoid taxes if/when Labour get in!
Friday morning going slow I'm watching the election show Lots of Ladbrokes slips on the floor Memories of the night before Out knocking up and having fun Now I've stopped reading The Sun Waiting for the results to show But why I voted no one knows
Voting, polling Blogging, trolling And now I'm all alone In Brexit Land My only home
I think it's time to write a thread To vent the bemusement in my head Spent my money on online bookies Got nowt here but all the cookies Clean my suit and my rosette Election promises to forget Start campaigning all over again Kid myself I'm having fun
Voting, polling Blogging, trolling And now I'm all alone In Brexit Land My only home
Looking out from my worldview I've really nothing else to do Seems like I have started fretting Let's read Political Betting Forget The Mirror and The Times The battle bus with such great lines Look around and I can see A thousand punters just like me
Voting, polling Blogging, trolling And now I'm all alone In Brexit Land My only home
Voting, polling Blogging, trolling And now I'm all alone In Brexit Land My only home
Last three paragraphs seemed particularly pertinent.
An interesting link, thank you. Unfortunately I disagree with him on certain points (and on his insistence on treating Anywheres as some strange malevolent species, like a deep-sea angler fish that must be held at arm's length lest it bite). Particularly his final paragraph "But that could change. If the EU makes unfair demands and is demonstrably the cause of negotiation failure the vast majority of Brits could come together to make a success of our journey over that cliff edge."
I've spoken before about "failing and blaming" - the Leaver tendency to seek not success but instead seek failure in order to blame the EU. This can be expressed as a spectrum, varying from "well we tried our best but - hey, what can you do" to "the EU is a malevolent force who deliberately attacked us so we must retaliate". The former "bakes in" failure and reduces us to children, and the latter is actively dangerous. I suspect that "failing and blaming" will become increasingly important in the years ahead and make things worse than they already are, and I think Goodhart will be part of that, and not an unwilling one.
I see no issue with you retaining EU citizenship. I do wonder why the EU would offer it though given it would make no difference to the Brexit agreement. All it would effectively do is put extra commitments on the EU but none on the UK.
That's been pointed out a few times on here. Why the EU seems to think it might be a clever wheeze on their part is beyond me.
I think it's a 'hearts & minds' thing from the EU perspective. However, I seem to remember the UK government have said they will not countenance it.
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.
Says a Brexiter will all the subtlety he can come up with. I have an EU passport today. Why should I give it up ?
No such thing as an EU passport or EU citizenship. You are a citizen of a member country which has voted to leave. You can either live with that or apply for citizenship in a country which is not leaving. May I suggest the Catalan region of Spain.
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.
You live in Switzerland.
Is Switzerland in the EU?
I was pointing out the irony of you telling somebody to leave the UK and go live in Germanistan when you had left the UK to go live in Switzerland, a country that speaks German and has a border with Germany.
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.
You live in Switzerland.
Is Switzerland in the EU?
I was pointing out the irony of you telling somebody to leave the UK and go live in Germanistan when you had left the UK to go live in Switzerland, a country that speaks German and has a border with Germany.
Can we please, once and for all, knock on the head the nonsense that the existence of customs regulations automatically implies that you have to have physical border checks?
There are no physical border checks today at the Irish border. That doesn't mean there are no laws or formalities governing what you can bring across the border, as you would rapidly discover if you drove a van from Northern Ireland across the border, loaded it up with Jameson whiskey, drove back, and started selling it to pubs in Belfast.
So, if, for example, we agree with our EU friends that there should be no restrictions on agricultural products from farms on either side of the border, that doesn't automatically mean there would have to be physical border checks to ensure that American beef isn't being smuggled through illegally.
Once we know what the trade agreement, if any, is going to be, all this kind of issue can be discussed and resolved. But first we need to sort out what regulations exactly we are trying to implement.
It's good to see the Tory infighting is all resolved now, eh?
And yet the public want Theresa May to see Brexit through. 42% in Sky poll tonight want her to continue and a vox pop in Putney seemed to affirm it.
She has had a dreadful time and less mortals would have been broken but her stoicism does seem to be proving popular and in good news tonight the Danish Foreign Minister has attacked Brussels for the politics demanding that trade talks begin.
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.
You live in Switzerland.
Is Switzerland in the EU?
I was pointing out the irony of you telling somebody to leave the UK and go live in Germanistan when you had left the UK to go live in Switzerland, a country that speaks German and has a border with Germany.
Saves him paying UK taxes though, doesn't it.
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.
How can he refuse to be sacked? Presumably the civil service will take their instructions from the PM rather than him and remove all his FO rights and access etc. And the new Foreign Secretary will perform the role (rather better than he has done).
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.
I think being British it's very clear to Johnny Foreigner when you turn up that his borders and his rules are simply local traditions. Proper, British, goings on have to surround you in your progress through his territories. I'm sure that border guards throughout the civilised world (and France too) acknowledge the truth of something so basic.
There are no physical border checks today at the Irish border. That doesn't mean there are no laws or formalities governing what you can bring across the border, as you would rapidly discover if you drove a van from Northern Ireland across the border, loaded it up with Jameson whiskey, drove back, and started selling it to pubs in Belfast.
And what would you discover if you tried to do this?
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.
You live in Switzerland.
Is Switzerland in the EU?
I was pointing out the irony of you telling somebody to leave the UK and go live in Germanistan when you had left the UK to go live in Switzerland, a country that speaks German and has a border with Germany.
Saves him paying UK taxes though, doesn't it.
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.
You live in Switzerland.
Is Switzerland in the EU?
I was pointing out the irony of you telling somebody to leave the UK and go live in Germanistan when you had left the UK to go live in Switzerland, a country that speaks German and has a border with Germany.
Saves him paying UK taxes though, doesn't it.
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.
So people in the UK that don't pay taxes aren't citizens in your eyes?
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.
Says a Brexiter will all the subtlety he can come up with. I have an EU passport today. Why should I give it up ?
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a state
Do you know, that's a legitimate question! Pause. That's quite rare for PB.
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.
His almost suicidal bravery when dealing with some of the nastiest and most unpredictable people on earth never ceases to amaze me. I think he is an amazing journalist of a type that are few and far between today.
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.
I think being British it's very clear to Johnny Foreigner when you turn up that his borders and his rules are simply local traditions. Proper, British, goings on have to surround you in your progress through his territories. I'm sure that border guards throughout the civilised world (and France too) acknowledge the truth of something so basic.
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.
Says a Brexiter will all the subtlety he can come up with. I have an EU passport today. Why should I give it up ?
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a state
Do you know, that's a legitimate question! Pause. That's quite rare for PB.
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.
As far as I am aware your passport is issued in the Country of your residence, ie British, French, German etc, it is not issued by Brussels as it is not a state
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.
You live in Switzerland.
Is Switzerland in the EU?
I was pointing out the irony of you telling somebody to leave the UK and go live in Germanistan when you had left the UK to go live in Switzerland, a country that speaks German and has a border with Germany.
Saves him paying UK taxes though, doesn't it.
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.
And yet there are hundreds of thousands of people who work in other countries and who are not able to pay UK taxes because of the tax arrangements put in place by the UK Government via reciprocal tax deals. I am afraid that whilst I agree with the sentiment of your idea, the practicality of it is not suited to the modern world.
How can he refuse to be sacked? Presumably the civil service will take their instructions from the PM rather than him and remove all his FO rights and access etc. And the new Foreign Secretary will perform the role (rather better than he has done).
I think it means he will decline the offer of any other job, so force her to sack him rather than just downgrade him.
Lol you fucking weirdo. Hopefully you decide to fuck off to Germanistan when we leave.
Says a Brexiter will all the subtlety he can come up with. I have an EU passport today. Why should I give it up ?
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a state
Do you know, that's a legitimate question! Pause. That's quite rare for PB.
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.
I agree, it was a good question from Big_G, although for me, it's not so much about the passport as the rights I have being an EU citizen... FoM across the EU for one. I think of an EU passport as evidencing those rights.
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.
Nationalism is over-rated.
That is because your culture is global.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.
How can he refuse to be sacked? Presumably the civil service will take their instructions from the PM rather than him and remove all his FO rights and access etc. And the new Foreign Secretary will perform the role (rather better than he has done).
I think it means he will decline the offer of any other job, so force her to sack him rather than just downgrade him.
Ah right, it's behind their paywall so I can't read it. If that's what the article says the headline is misleading: "Boris Johnson will 'just say no' if Theresa May tries to sack him amid calls for 'miserable' Philip Hammond to face axe"
... but that's only to be expected with the Torygraph these days.
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.
Nationalism is over-rated.
For you, perhaps. For me, it's the core part of my identity, not a commodity.
Which might explain why we were on opposite sides of the argument.
And what would you discover if you tried to do this?
That HMRC are not entirely happy.
Having said that, as I understand it the main trade at the moment is in cigarettes going south. The Irish government doesn't seem to think this requires a hard physical border. So why should it require a hard physical border on the off-chance that, despite the absurdity of the economics, people started smuggling chlorine-cleaned chickens across the border?
How can he refuse to be sacked? Presumably the civil service will take their instructions from the PM rather than him and remove all his FO rights and access etc. And the new Foreign Secretary will perform the role (rather better than he has done).
Supposedly Alistair Darling did when El Gord tried to sack him from CotE....
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.
Nationalism is over-rated.
That is because your culture is global.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.
Nationalism is a shop-soiled word.
I believe to mean a world of nation states, but it's been coloured in the modern age to mean being a bit Hitlery.
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.
Nationalism is over-rated.
For you, perhaps. For me, it's the core part of my identity, not a commodity.
Which might explain why we were on opposite sides of the argument.
It probably does Casino; each trying; but probably failing, to understand the other.
However, we'd no doubt get on fine over a few beers
Comments
They haven't reached the level of calling people saboteurs yet
Oh, it was. You lost.....
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Ironically, such attitudes, although more subtly shown at the time, and more in suspicion than in fact, were one of the reasons so many voted Leave.
Now, we have the fact.
It's a theme that goes right back to the early novels, as Smiley questions what he and the service are fighting for, Smiley being jaded with the idea of fighting for King and Country during the war, or Capitalism post-war, and more inclined to fight for older and higher values as he sees them, what might broadly be described as Civilisation (in a Kenneth Clark sense, not the more literal sense).
It occurs to me that in the Smiley novels the only character with any significant political motivation is Bill Haydon, the traitor.
LEAVE 52%
REMAIN 48%
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
¡Se acabó!
https://twitter.com/MackieJonathan/status/917001350625550336
First, we will have duty free access of NZ dairy products. That will bankrupt half the UK dairy farmers. Then we will bring in $2 chlorinated chicken and that will bankrupt half of the chicken producers.
And a complete stop to all subsidies to farmers.
But the BBC is doing itself no favours. Even on the facts there is a case to answer - there's no need to exaggerate
I thought YOU were intelligent a few years back. What went wrong ?
This might require both the UK and EU to be a bit flexible but it's perfectly possible.
Of course we are not entitled to a FTA. But it is becoming increasingly apparent that the Irish border is the real hot potato. No one wants a border and it is a matter of mutual self-interest to avoid one. That is where the FTA comes in and everyone gets to have his cake and eat it. Is the EU up for it?
But it cannot be a "seamless" border as the UK position paper suggests.
Would the EU of 390m people really give the UK a "free" prize just not to have a border in Ireland ? I doubt it.
- May has already ruled out any physical infrastructure at the border.
- Creating new red tape for businesses trading across the border goes against the aims of the Good Friday Agreement and inhibits North-South economic integration.
London as an economic entity may support the UK - London voters not to much.
What you are suggesting is still a customs border. OK, the lite version.
I'd still like to see the option be left open for those of us that want to retain our EU citizenship to be able to do so; I've no objection to those who wish to lose theirs doing so.
I expect the UK- EU to agree fairly flexible working and residential rights but, there will be limits.
I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
If you have "zero interest in any other citizenship than British" I hope you are not amongst those PBers who plan to bugger off abroad to avoid taxes if/when Labour get in!
Brexitter
-------------
New words by Sunil, original music by Marc Almond & Dave Ball.
Friday morning going slow
I'm watching the election show
Lots of Ladbrokes slips on the floor
Memories of the night before
Out knocking up and having fun
Now I've stopped reading The Sun
Waiting for the results to show
But why I voted no one knows
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
I think it's time to write a thread
To vent the bemusement in my head
Spent my money on online bookies
Got nowt here but all the cookies
Clean my suit and my rosette
Election promises to forget
Start campaigning all over again
Kid myself I'm having fun
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
Looking out from my worldview
I've really nothing else to do
Seems like I have started fretting
Let's read Political Betting
Forget The Mirror and The Times
The battle bus with such great lines
Look around and I can see
A thousand punters just like me
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
Voting, polling
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit Land
My only home
(I'm waiting for Brexit
Or am I wasting time)
I've spoken before about "failing and blaming" - the Leaver tendency to seek not success but instead seek failure in order to blame the EU. This can be expressed as a spectrum, varying from "well we tried our best but - hey, what can you do" to "the EU is a malevolent force who deliberately attacked us so we must retaliate". The former "bakes in" failure and reduces us to children, and the latter is actively dangerous. I suspect that "failing and blaming" will become increasingly important in the years ahead and make things worse than they already are, and I think Goodhart will be part of that, and not an unwilling one.
I think it's a 'hearts & minds' thing from the EU perspective. However, I seem to remember the UK government have said they will not countenance it.
Of course, you can still keep that European passport.
Just don't try and force one on the rest of us.
To help you there is this:
http://www.theschoolhouse.us/lessons/lesson17.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4960778/Men-charged-Michael-Watson-acid-attack-carjacking.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/08/exclusive-boris-johnson-will-just-say-no-theresa-may-tries-sack/
https://twitter.com/BBCTwo/status/917128733718278144
Nationalism is over-rated.
There are no physical border checks today at the Irish border. That doesn't mean there are no laws or formalities governing what you can bring across the border, as you would rapidly discover if you drove a van from Northern Ireland across the border, loaded it up with Jameson whiskey, drove back, and started selling it to pubs in Belfast.
So, if, for example, we agree with our EU friends that there should be no restrictions on agricultural products from farms on either side of the border, that doesn't automatically mean there would have to be physical border checks to ensure that American beef isn't being smuggled through illegally.
Once we know what the trade agreement, if any, is going to be, all this kind of issue can be discussed and resolved. But first we need to sort out what regulations exactly we are trying to implement.
She has had a dreadful time and less mortals would have been broken but her stoicism does seem to be proving popular and in good news tonight the Danish Foreign Minister has attacked Brussels for the politics demanding that trade talks begin.
The first sign of a crack in Europe
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.
And yet there are hundreds of thousands of people who work in other countries and who are not able to pay UK taxes because of the tax arrangements put in place by the UK Government via reciprocal tax deals. I am afraid that whilst I agree with the sentiment of your idea, the practicality of it is not suited to the modern world.
There's something about the man's manner I just can't stand.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.
... but that's only to be expected with the Torygraph these days.
Which might explain why we were on opposite sides of the argument.
Having said that, as I understand it the main trade at the moment is in cigarettes going south. The Irish government doesn't seem to think this requires a hard physical border. So why should it require a hard physical border on the off-chance that, despite the absurdity of the economics, people started smuggling chlorine-cleaned chickens across the border?
I'm not looking forward to the last episode if it has a status update on the people appearing in it.
I believe to mean a world of nation states, but it's been coloured in the modern age to mean being a bit Hitlery.
However, we'd no doubt get on fine over a few beers