politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » ICM finds Corbyn making ground against TMay across a range of

SouthamObserver said:

In very different news, my uncle died yesterday. He was an actor of little distinction who went to the US to make his fortune, but never made it. His lasting contributions to our cultural heritage will be that he played one of O'Reilly's men in The Builders episode of Fawlty Towers and being Blakes lawyer in the first-ever episode if Blake's Seven. On a personal level he was a very funny man who was never very goid at hiding his envy of his more successful friends. I thought he was great when I was younger, but hadn't seen him for close to 15 years.

Anyway, the point is that his death got my Mum, his sister, to talk about her family. The Halseys came from Hertfordshire to Kentish Town in the 1860s. They had been shepherds, they became railwaymen. Her Grandad was an engine driver and had 18 (!!!) children, the youngest of which was my grandad. It turns out that one of my Mum's uncles also had nine kids, one of which was AH Halsey, who advised Tony Crossland on education:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2014/oct/16/ah-halsey

So, basically, comprehensives are all my family's fault!!!

not_on_fire said:

View_From_Cumbria said:

not_on_fire said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

low points.

Seriously? Black Wednesday,Major at war with “The Bastards” in his cabinet, sleaze, cash for questions, chaos over Maarstricht, half the parliamentary Tory party caught with their pants down in various “exotic” sexual escapades. Easily the worst government in my lifetime.

There was an assumption within Tory circles that whatever was done no election could be lost - when the reality dawned belatedly no election could be won. But, it wasn't on the whole bad government. The press used the shagging incidents mercilessly and then when we went "Back to Basics" the whole thing was hopeless. I really don't care about who is knocking off who and think Mary Archer got it right when she castigated John Major only for his lack of taste.

A lot of figures mainly Labour have been strong enough in their seats to be able to say "so what ?" That must be good. But as long as we allow what interests the public to be passed off as public interest then we will go on in this direction. Tim Farron's experience is unusual but his supporters haven't always been above casting the first stone.

It’s true that we lived in more prudish times back then - even being in a homesexual relationship was still viewed as a bit risqué back then. However the sex scandals added to a narrative of a party unfit to govern.

It added to the general image of a party that was putting its interests ahead of the country, that had lost its way and any sense of ethics. That was a bit unfair, of Ken Clarke in particular, but combined with an incredibly strong opposition leader in Blair they seemed to be hanging on for the sake of it. Alan B'stard caught the mood.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. NorthWales, you must be mistaken. There is no anti-semitism in the Labour Party. Baroness Chakrabarti's report said so. Please report to Re-Education Camp Twenty-Seven for your wrongthink to be corrected.

SouthamObserver said:

In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander:
https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384

foxinsoxuk said:

HYUFD said:

Given the previous poll was taken before the general election hardly surprising there has been a shift.

The biggest ones are on pensioners, which the Tories having scrapped the ending of the triple lock and winter fuel allowance have begun to redress and on students where Hammond is set to raise the threshold for fees and likely cut fees for courses with a lower earnings premium and maybe the interest rate too

I cannot recall such a time when the "winning" party ripped up its manifesto so completely. It is now implementing a very different set of policies. Right or wrong, this is not going to restore faith in the honesty of politicians. It also makes Corbyn look an authentic and sage leader.

SouthamObserver said:

In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander:
https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384

Sean_F said:

I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.

But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.

SouthamObserver said:

In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander:
https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384

YBarddCwsc said:

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.

Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.

I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present

I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.

Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.

In my younger days, I used to be more pro-Arab & sceptical of the need for the state of Israel.

Now that bombs explode in London and Islamic-inspired terrorists stalk the streets of the great cities of Western Europe, I find myself very much more understanding of Israel's plight.

I expect I am not the only one.

Whether you describe someone as a terrorist or a freedom-fighter depends on whether the gun is pointing at you or someone else.

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.

Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.

I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present

I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.

Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.

kle4 said:

In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.

JosiasJessop said:

SouthamObserver said:

In very different news, my uncle died yesterday. He was an actor of little distinction who went to the US to make his fortune, but never made it. His lasting contributions to our cultural heritage will be that he played one of O'Reilly's men in The Builders episode of Fawlty Towers and being Blakes lawyer in the first-ever episode if Blake's Seven. On a personal level he was a very funny man who was never very goid at hiding his envy of his more successful friends. I thought he was great when I was younger, but hadn't seen him for close to 15 years.

Anyway, the point is that his death got my Mum, his sister, to talk about her family. The Halseys came from Hertfordshire to Kentish Town in the 1860s. They had been shepherds, they became railwaymen. Her Grandad was an engine driver and had 18 (!!!) children, the youngest of which was my grandad. It turns out that one of my Mum's uncles also had nine kids, one of which was AH Halsey, who advised Tony Crossland on education:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2014/oct/16/ah-halsey

So, basically, comprehensives are all my family's fault!!!

Sorry to hear about your loss, but what a lovely little anecdote.

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.

Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.

I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present

I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.

Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.

Labour were the same towards apartheid South Africa. They have always taken a strong stance against oppression of the weak by the powerful particularly when we appear to be giving unequivocal support to the oppressors. It's one of the reasons Labour still have a strong body of support however bonkers some of their domestic policies seem to be.

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.

Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.

I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present

I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.

Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.

Labour were the same towards apartheid South Africa. They have always taken a strong stance against oppression of the weak by the powerful particularly when we appear to be giving unequivocal support to the oppressors. It's one of the reasons Labour still have a strong body of support however bonkers some of their domestic policies seem to be.

Dura_Ace said:

kle4 said:

In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.

Let them leave. What else could we do?

SouthamObserver said:

kle4 said:

In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.

In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.

Theuniondivvie said:

Sean_F said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.

Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.

I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present

I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.

Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.

Labour were the same towards apartheid South Africa. They have always taken a strong stance against oppression of the weak by the powerful particularly when we appear to be giving unequivocal support to the oppressors. It's one of the reasons Labour still have a strong body of support however bonkers some of their domestic policies seem to be.

The problem is the fallacy of the superior virtue of the oppressed, when in reality, people who are on the receiving end of oppression can often be very unpleasant people in their own right.

Otoh the oppressors are almost always very unpleasant people, or very quickly made so by their role as oppressors.

SouthamObserver said:

kle4 said:

In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.

In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.

MarqueeMark said:

SouthamObserver said:

kle4 said:

In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.

In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.

What will the EU do - just carry on and ignore an independent Catalonia? I suspect they have to. It will certainly make the SNP's blithe assurances that Scotland would be welcomed with open arms rather more difficult to sustain.

Theuniondivvie said:

Nige still desperate to break America. So to speak.

Birra_Moretti said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Nige still desperate to break America. So to speak.

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/912477664535105542

Like The Beatles were desperate to break America when they played Shea stadium in '66. Really embarrassed for him.

Stark_Dawning said:

Birra_Moretti said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Nige still desperate to break America. So to speak.

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/912477664535105542

Like The Beatles were desperate to break America when they played Shea stadium in '66. Really embarrassed for him.

More like the token Englishman Davy Jones in the Monkees.

logical_song said:

Birra_Moretti said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Nige still desperate to break America. So to speak.

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/912477664535105542

Like The Beatles were desperate to break America when they played Shea stadium in '66. Really embarrassed for him.

I think they had already done it before '66.
http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/chart-beat/6039421/50-years-ago-today-the-beatles-boast-nos-1-5-on-billboard-hot

Jonathan said:

HYUFD said:

Jonathan said:

kle4 said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

Roger said:

ydoethur said:

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell

Corbyn was elected Labour leader before Brexit and he also won the 2016 local elections before Brexit, it was continued austerity and rising student fee repayments which Corbyn capitalised on he simply neutralised Brexit

I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.

But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.

Agreed.

She wasn't. She didn't. No flowers.

It wasn't just May, hubris infected the entire Tory party.

True, just the hubris has now switched to Labour

Hubris isn't really the word to describe what's going on in Labour. It's more of a bubble. Where the cult of Corbyn seems to be in a feedback loop. There isn't an air of entitlement, but lots of hype and excitement.

Richard_Nabavi said:

On topic: The Conservative Party needs to start now on doing what it do disastrously failed to do during the election campaign: challenge the absurdities and internal contradictions of Corbyn and McDonnell on economics. Because so much has been allowed to go unchallenged, as a result of the political incompetence of Theresa May and her advisers, we have got to a very bad position where even intelligent youngsters think that a vote for Corbyn wouldn't be hugely damaging to their prospects. It's going to be a long haul refocusing the minds of voters on realities.

Sadly, I don't yet see much evidence that the Conservative leadership are really rising to this challenge. One can only hope that they will find some new George Osborne to craft the messages we need to get across, starting soon, and doing it consistently until the next GE.

justin124 said:

SouthamObserver said:

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

The difference is that in the grand scheme of things none of those situations, though grave and all-consuming at the time, was as consequential as Brexit. What happens over the next two or three years will set the UK's course for decades to follow.

As did the IMF rescue of 1976. As did Maastricht/Black Wednesday.

I think the comparisons are valid and in many crucial respects those governments were weaker than May's. For a start, they all faced imminent elections against united and potent opposition.

It is possible maybe even probable of course that May will surpass them but we're not there yet.

I have to go. Have a good morning.

No, the IMF bailout was the end of something; as was Black Wrdnesday. We're at the start of something with Brexit.

Healey pointed out that following revisions to the initial data available the IMF bailout had not actually been necessary at all!

tyson said:

That strategy worked well on the Brexit campaign didn't it?

I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.

rottenborough said:

They are too busy fighting over Brexit.

The road to Corbynism seems pretty clear of obstacles at the moment.

philiph said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

rottenborough said:

They are too busy fighting over Brexit.

The road to Corbynism seems pretty clear of obstacles at the moment.

Not so sure about that. The obstruction on the road to Corbynism is Corbynism. The only question is whether voters will see it in time, or crash into it.

Given another 3 or 4 years to mature and develop I wonder what 2020 Corbynism will look like.

williamglenn said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

rottenborough said:

They are too busy fighting over Brexit.

The road to Corbynism seems pretty clear of obstacles at the moment.

Not so sure about that. The obstruction on the road to Corbynism is Corbynism. The only question is whether voters will see it in time, or crash into it.

Voters only risk big experiments when there's a mood of complacency. A disastrous outcome of the Brexit talks could be just the ticket to sober people up.

Richard_Nabavi said:

tyson said:

That strategy worked well on the Brexit campaign didn't it?

I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.

Of course Corbyn and McDonnell would wreak more damage than Brexit. Quite apart from anything else, it would in addition to any Brexit fallout, and, as we have seen this week, they fully intend to use the addition 'take back control' powers to go the full Venezuela. Unrestrained by EU rules, the damage will be massive.

TOPPING said:

tyson said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

On topic: The Conservative Party needs to start now on doing what it do disastrously failed to do during the election campaign: challenge the absurdities and internal contradictions of Corbyn and McDonnell on economics. Because so much has been allowed to go unchallenged, as a result of the political incompetence of Theresa May and her advisers, we have got to a very bad position where even intelligent youngsters think that a vote for Corbyn wouldn't be hugely damaging to their prospects. It's going to be a long haul refocusing the minds of voters on realities.

Sadly, I don't yet see much evidence that the Conservative leadership are really rising to this challenge. One can only hope that they will find some new George Osborne to craft the messages we need to get across, starting soon, and doing it consistently until the next GE.

That strategy worked well on the Brexit campaign didn't it?

I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.

Are you forgetting the vast swathe of WWC Labour voters who voted Brexit because...because...well I wouldn't dare to presume why they voted Brexit. Perhaps on account of droite de suite and they were angry because it threatened London's position in the global art market. Who knows?

And there are lots of such people in the Labour Party.

rottenborough said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

tyson said:

That strategy worked well on the Brexit campaign didn't it?

I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.

Of course Corbyn and McDonnell would wreak more damage than Brexit. Quite apart from anything else, it would in addition to any Brexit fallout, and, as we have seen this week, they fully intend to use the addition 'take back control' powers to go the full Venezuela. Unrestrained by EU rules, the damage will be massive.

It will be ironic, to say the least, to see Brexiteer Tories foaming about what Corbyn is doing which might have been stopped by EU rules.

anothernick said:

tyson said:

<
I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.

Exactly.

I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.

But they are proving to be electorally much more popular than anyone expected. Corbyn has shown an ability to moderate his previous positions to widen his appeal, most recently in the acceptance of an EEA "transition" period, which about 95% of Labour members hope will become permanent. The policies that have been unveiled this week, whilst further to the left than the new Labour years, are not a reprise of the 1980s - they are nowhere near as extreme as the Alternative Economic Strategy was then. And doorstep encounters with voters give me the strong impression that people do not want more of the same - they are tired of identikit posh boy politicians like Cameron (and Miliband) - a great deal of Corbyn's appeal lies in his ordinariness and in the fact that he is completely unassociated with what is now seen as the failures of the past two decades.

Labour moderates have neither the leaders or the policies to challenge the Corbynites. And, crucially, there is no evidence that a moderate leader would be more electorally successful. The conventional wisdom that elections are always won from the centre no longer holds IMO. And the example of the SDP shows that even a well-supported breakaway by senior figures is not likely to advance the moderate cause.

For most Labour party moderates (and most Corbynites as well) the overriding objective is to ensure the softest possible Brexit, and ideally reverse the process completely. This will not be done by droning on about the single market on every conceivable occasion or by premature calls for a second referendum. And it certainly won't be done by splitting the Labour Party and leaving the field to the Tories. The fact is that the country faces a choice between the divisive and destructive incompetence of the government and a Labour Party which, whilst far from perfect, just might offer a way out of the ghastly mess in which we find ourselves. The choice we face is certain disaster with the Tories or the possibly of something better with Corbyn. So Corbyn it will be.

anothernick said:

tyson said:

<
I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.

Exactly.

I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.

But they are proving to be electorally much more popular than anyone expected. Corbyn has shown an ability to moderate his previous positions to widen his appeal, most recently in the acceptance of an EEA "transition" period, which about 95% of Labour members hope will become permanent. The policies that have been unveiled this week, whilst further to the left than the new Labour years, are not a reprise of the 1980s - they are nowhere near as extreme as the Alternative Economic Strategy was then. And doorstep encounters with voters give me the strong impression that people do not want more of the same - they are tired of identikit posh boy politicians like Cameron (and Miliband) - a great deal of Corbyn's appeal lies in his ordinariness and in the fact that he is completely unassociated with what is now seen as the failures of the past two decades.

Labour moderates have neither the leaders or the policies to challenge the Corbynites. And, crucially, there is no evidence that a moderate leader would be more electorally successful. The conventional wisdom that elections are always won from the centre no longer holds IMO. And the example of the SDP shows that even a well-supported breakaway by senior figures is not likely to advance the moderate cause.

For most Labour party moderates (and most Corbynites as well) the overriding objective is to ensure the softest possible Brexit, and ideally reverse the process completely. This will not be done by droning on about the single market on every conceivable occasion or by premature calls for a second referendum. And it certainly won't be done by splitting the Labour Party and leaving the field to the Tories. The fact is that the country faces a choice between the divisive and destructive incompetence of the government and a Labour Party which, whilst far from perfect, just might offer a way out of the ghastly mess in which we find ourselves. The choice we face is certain disaster with the Tories or the possibly of something better with Corbyn. So Corbyn it will be.

Casino_Royale said:

Corbyn does not offer something better.

dixiedean said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Liz Duckworth has died and within minutes the BBC announce Tony Booth had also died

Met Liz Dawn with 3 other Corry cast members in a pub in Manchester quite by chance. She was absolutely lovely! Warm, engaging with a word for everyone. Not at all starry in the slightest. RIP.