3 weeks sauntering around Switzerland in the middle of an existential matter for the UK is no way to lead a nation. "Tin ear" hardly begins to describe the utter lack of political nous.
If you are at all interested in the Article 50 talks, you should read Michel Barnier's speech in another Italian city. Here it is in full It sets out from the EU point of view very clearly where the talks are at, what the choices are, what needs to be addressed and where the blockages are. Presumably if these negotiations are going to go anywhere, Mrs May or her minions will need to address in short order each point that Barnier raises.
Why do we have to bow to the EU. It is this mindset that resulted in the leave vote
"But one thing is sure: it is not – and will not – be possible for a third country to have the same benefits as the Norwegian model but the limited obligations of the Canadian model." - Barnier.
If you are at all interested in the Article 50 talks, you should read Michel Barnier's speech in another Italian city. Here it is in full It sets out from the EU point of view very clearly where the talks are at, what the choices are, what needs to be addressed and where the blockages are. Presumably if these negotiations are going to go anywhere, Mrs May or her minions will need to address in short order each point that Barnier raises.
Why do we have to bow to the EU. It is this mindset that resulted in the leave vote
We don't, if we don't care about not having any sort of deal and are OK with a Thelma and Louise cliff-edge Brexit in 18 months' time. If we do want a deal, we have to understand that we want more from the EU than we can withhold from them.
"Our citizens have real concerns today – which we share – when the Home Office sends deportation letters or appears to defy High Court orders, as we read in the press."
What stood out to me is that we still haven't requested a transition deal of some kind. That to me is a bit amazing. Surely we know whether we want one by now...?
If you are at all interested in the Article 50 talks, you should read Michel Barnier's speech in another Italian city. Here it is in full It sets out from the EU point of view very clearly where the talks are at, what the choices are, what needs to be addressed and where the blockages are. Presumably if these negotiations are going to go anywhere, Mrs May or her minions will need to address in short order each point that Barnier raises.
Why do we have to bow to the EU. It is this mindset that resulted in the leave vote
Indeed, it should be a negotiation, not a dictation. If it is the latter, perhaps no deal is better.
The process that you thought would be a doddle will instead be one of the biggest national humiliations in our history. Instead of volunteering the population of your home country to pay the price of this folly, you could just admit that you got it badly wrong.
I know you knew, but it gave me a good excuse to point out other similarities with a gang of women. Any carelessness will cause an explosion. Best keep them separated.
"Our citizens have real concerns today – which we share – when the Home Office sends deportation letters or appears to defy High Court orders, as we read in the press."
The Court of Justice would remain the ultimate guarantor of the agreement.
Seems reasonable seeing as the Home Office won't obey English courts.
"Our citizens have real concerns today – which we share – when the Home Office sends deportation letters or appears to defy High Court orders, as we read in the press."
The Court of Justice would remain the ultimate guarantor of the agreement.
Seems reasonable seeing as the Home Office won't obey English courts.
Mr. Glenn, the 'North'? Depends which bit. North Yorkshire is very blue, and West Yorkshire is full of marginals. The decline of UKIP does help the reds a lot.
But does hate have any place in the kinder politics?
Mr. Glenn, the 'North'? Depends which bit. North Yorkshire is very blue, and West Yorkshire is full of marginals. The decline of UKIP does help the reds a lot.
But does hate have any place in the kinder politics?
It often appears as a very major part of the kinder left.
If you are at all interested in the Article 50 talks, you should read Michel Barnier's speech in another Italian city. Here it is in full It sets out from the EU point of view very clearly where the talks are at, what the choices are, what needs to be addressed and where the blockages are. Presumably if these negotiations are going to go anywhere, Mrs May or her minions will need to address in short order each point that Barnier raises.
The key point to address is that the below is not going to work, though we can happily pretend that this is the process if it will help.
The sooner we make real "sufficient progress" on the conditions of the UK's withdrawal, the sooner we can begin discussing our future partnership."
In principle I agree. In practice the only thing that matters for the UK under the Article 50 talks is continuity. That things on March 30 2019 are as close as possible to what they were on March 29th. Article 50 gives both parties a two year window to settle stuff before all treaties lapse. It doesn't and can't cover a comprehensive new relationship, beyond setting a goal. Equally the Article 50 isn't the end of the process. Everything that isn't in the Withdrawal Agreement will be carried forward to future negotiations. If we are going to simplify these talks, and I believe it's in our interests to do so, it comes down to a continuity / financial settlement deal. There may be some issues to sort out on citizen rights. Ireland is likely to be what it is. No-one wants to disturb things there more than they have to be.
Another point. People who complain that this is a dictation, not a negotiation don't accept the relative bargaining strengths of each party. If we want to change that we need to start finding out what do the other party really want that we have, so we can trade it..
I tell you, it's utterly inexplicable that the EU won't do a deal on Britain's preferred terms.
Don’t worry the EU needs us more than we need them plus after the German election German car manufacturers will force the Chancellor of Germany to give us a good deal.
Mr. Eagles, I still don't get why you said you'd vote to Remain and then to Leave a decade later. If leaving now is difficult, it'd be even harder 10 years down the line, no?
I tell you, it's utterly inexplicable that the EU won't do a deal on Britain's preferred terms.
Don’t worry the EU needs us more than we need them plus after the German election German car manufacturers will force the Chancellor of Germany to give us a good deal.
I am a hard Brexiter. I think that Europe has made a mistake negotiating the inter-governmental accord [the “special status” deal David Cameron struck with the EU in February last year]. It created a precedent, which is that a single state can twist the European debate to its own interests. Cameron was toying with Europe and we agreed to go along with it, which was a big mistake.
Britain must understand that our interest in the medium to long term is to have clear rules. So if Britain wants to trade with Europe it has to choose a model, such as the Swiss, Norwegian or Canadian. We have to accept that there are losses. But it’s the British who will lose the most. You cannot enjoy rights in Europe if you are not a member – otherwise it will fall apart. Europe is what has enabled us since 1945, in an unprecedented way, to preserve peace, security, freedom and prosperity in our continent. The British are making a serious mistake over the long term. Boris Johnson enjoys giving flamboyant speeches but has no strategic vision; the turmoil he created the day after Brexit proves it. Nigel Farage and Mr Johnson are responsible for this crime: they sailed the ship into battle and jumped overboard at the moment of crisis. Theresa May has handled it but what has been happening since then? On the geopolitical level as well as on the financial, realignment and submission to the US. What is going to happen is not “taking back control”: it’s servitude.
Labour will most probably win the next election, whenever it is held, and whoever the Tory leader is. Given that, why the hell should the Tories do anything to precipitate an early election when they have a perfectly valid mandate to govern until 2022?
Corbyn's old, and a crazy communist - a lot could happen to burst his bubble in the next five years.
Mr. Eagles, I still don't get why you said you'd vote to Remain and then to Leave a decade later. If leaving now is difficult, it'd be even harder 10 years down the line, no?
Because if the EU integrated further we’d be able to get an orderly Brexit, along with other countries.
We’re going to get a disorderly Brexit that damages the country to the point where the voters demand we rejoin the EU replete with the Euro et al.
We should have planned for a five year orderly transition.
Instead we’ve got Boris, Liam Fox, and David Davis trying to get it done in 18 months.
I tell you, it's utterly inexplicable that the EU won't do a deal on Britain's preferred terms.
Don’t worry the EU needs us more than we need them plus after the German election German car manufacturers will force the Chancellor of Germany to give us a good deal.
I am a hard Brexiter. I think that Europe has made a mistake negotiating the inter-governmental accord [the “special status” deal David Cameron struck with the EU in February last year]. It created a precedent, which is that a single state can twist the European debate to its own interests. Cameron was toying with Europe and we agreed to go along with it, which was a big mistake.
Britain must understand that our interest in the medium to long term is to have clear rules. So if Britain wants to trade with Europe it has to choose a model, such as the Swiss, Norwegian or Canadian. We have to accept that there are losses. But it’s the British who will lose the most. You cannot enjoy rights in Europe if you are not a member – otherwise it will fall apart. Europe is what has enabled us since 1945, in an unprecedented way, to preserve peace, security, freedom and prosperity in our continent. The British are making a serious mistake over the long term. Boris Johnson enjoys giving flamboyant speeches but has no strategic vision; the turmoil he created the day after Brexit proves it. Nigel Farage and Mr Johnson are responsible for this crime: they sailed the ship into battle and jumped overboard at the moment of crisis. Theresa May has handled it but what has been happening since then? On the geopolitical level as well as on the financial, realignment and submission to the US. What is going to happen is not “taking back control”: it’s servitude.
The hypocrisy is rich in this!
It created a precedent, which is that a single state can twist the European debate to its own interests - Like France never would
medium to long term is to have clear rules - Like France always obeys them
Mr. Eagles, I still don't get why you said you'd vote to Remain and then to Leave a decade later. If leaving now is difficult, it'd be even harder 10 years down the line, no?
Because if the EU integrated further we’d be able to get an orderly Brexit, along with other countries.
We’re going to get a disorderly Brexit that damages the country to the point where the voters demand we rejoin the EU replete with the Euro et al.
We should have planned for a five year orderly transition.
Instead we’ve got Boris, Liam Fox, and David Davis trying to get it done in 18 months.
When we joined the then EC in 1973 there was a 7-year transition period. And the EC competencies were much less extensive then the EU ones are now.
If you are at all interested in the Article 50 talks, you should read Michel Barnier's speech in another Italian city. Here it is in full It sets out from the EU point of view very clearly where the talks are at, what the choices are, what needs to be addressed and where the blockages are. Presumably if these negotiations are going to go anywhere, Mrs May or her minions will need to address in short order each point that Barnier raises.
Why do we have to bow to the EU. It is this mindset that resulted in the leave vote
Indeed, it should be a negotiation, not a dictation. If it is the latter, perhaps no deal is better.
The process that you thought would be a doddle will instead be one of the biggest national humiliations in our history. Instead of volunteering the population of your home country to pay the price of this folly, you could just admit that you got it badly wrong.
I never said the process would be a doodle. I reacted to the likes of you and Mr Meeks saying it would inevitably takes years and years. There was never anything inevitable about this.
And, if you go back through the threads, you will see many posts in which I cautioned that if the EU took the approach that they are currently taking, then we'd be better off not negotiating at all, accepting that we should crash out, and resume negotiations years down the road when the EU was more interested in negotiating based on mutual interest, rather than putting primacy on signaling the costs of leaving the Union.
For negotiations to succeed, both parties have to act in good faith and there has to be a ZOPA. The EU, by focusing on sending a message to its remaining membership about the costs of exit in order to preserve the Union, chose to shrink the ZOPA massively. By insisting on the huge divorce bill and addressing everything they want before talking about a future relationship as required under Article 50 they have, in my view, destroyed the ZOPA completely.
Mr. Eagles, why would further integration lead to orderly departure? We'd be more integrated, not less, increasing the difficulty of disentangling ourselves.
Labour will most probably win the next election, whenever it is held, and whoever the Tory leader is. Given that, why the hell should the Tories do anything to precipitate an early election when they have a perfectly valid mandate to govern until 2022?
Corbyn's old, and a crazy communist - a lot could happen to burst his bubble in the next five years.
Good point. Why did Mrs May hold an election since in your own words the Tories "had a perfectly valid mandate to govern until 2020?"
In fact, she does not have a valid mandate now. The DUP would have voted with Labour on Nurses pay hence the climbdown.
I tell you, it's utterly inexplicable that the EU won't do a deal on Britain's preferred terms.
Don’t worry the EU needs us more than we need them plus after the German election German car manufacturers will force the Chancellor of Germany to give us a good deal.
I am a hard Brexiter. I think that Europe has made a mistake negotiating the inter-governmental accord [the “special status” deal David Cameron struck with the EU in February last year]. It created a precedent, which is that a single state can twist the European debate to its own interests. Cameron was toying with Europe and we agreed to go along with it, which was a big mistake.
Britain must understand that our interest in the medium to long term is to have clear rules. So if Britain wants to trade with Europe it has to choose a model, such as the Swiss, Norwegian or Canadian. We have to accept that there are losses. But it’s the British who will lose the most. You cannot enjoy rights in Europe if you are not a member – otherwise it will fall apart. Europe is what has enabled us since 1945, in an unprecedented way, to preserve peace, security, freedom and prosperity in our continent. The British are making a serious mistake over the long term. Boris Johnson enjoys giving flamboyant speeches but has no strategic vision; the turmoil he created the day after Brexit proves it. Nigel Farage and Mr Johnson are responsible for this crime: they sailed the ship into battle and jumped overboard at the moment of crisis. Theresa May has handled it but what has been happening since then? On the geopolitical level as well as on the financial, realignment and submission to the US. What is going to happen is not “taking back control”: it’s servitude.
The hypocrisy is rich in this!
It created a precedent, which is that a single state can twist the European debate to its own interests - Like France never would
medium to long term is to have clear rules - Like France always obeys them
I've heard it said that they only burn French tyres, etiquette demanding that they do so only on French roads.
Mr. Eagles, why would further integration lead to orderly departure? We'd be more integrated, not less, increasing the difficulty of disentangling ourselves.
Because the EU would be a case of us and others being forced out rather than choosing to Leave.
Completely off topic. I don't know why I thought of PB when reading this
"Perhaps you’ll even reconsider trolling someone online regarding their political opinion, remembering that no matter how crass and inhumane a sentiment appears on screen, an actual human is sitting behind the keyboard pecking out their thoughts. I’m not arguing against engaging, but for the love of anything closely resembling humanity, argue intelligently.
"Because reading does in fact make us more intelligent. Research shows that reading not only helps with fluid intelligence, but with reading comprehension and emotional intelligence as well. You make smarter decisions about yourself and those around you"
To be fair to PB, it is one of the more civil sites on the internet for vigorous discourse of matters close to people's identity.
Labour will most probably win the next election, whenever it is held, and whoever the Tory leader is. Given that, why the hell should the Tories do anything to precipitate an early election when they have a perfectly valid mandate to govern until 2022?
Corbyn's old, and a crazy communist - a lot could happen to burst his bubble in the next five years.
A lot will happen - and I suspect the world will look a lot different in 2022 than it does today...
Mr. Eagles, why would further integration lead to orderly departure? We'd be more integrated, not less, increasing the difficulty of disentangling ourselves.
Because the EU would be a case of us and others being forced out rather than choosing to Leave.
Further EU integration would mean that we would be forced to adopt the Euro, drive on the right, and ride bikes wearing berets and onions.
Labour will most probably win the next election, whenever it is held, and whoever the Tory leader is. Given that, why the hell should the Tories do anything to precipitate an early election when they have a perfectly valid mandate to govern until 2022?
Corbyn's old, and a crazy communist - a lot could happen to burst his bubble in the next five years.
Good point. Why did Mrs May hold an election since in your own words the Tories "had a perfectly valid mandate to govern until 2020?"
In fact, she does not have a valid mandate now. The DUP would have voted with Labour on Nurses pay hence the climbdown.
Why hold GE2017? Because she trusted the voters not to be mental cases, which is sadly a dangerous assumption in the UK and US these days.
The DUP won't let Commie become PM, no matter how much they may wish to flex their independence on irrelevant, non-binding votes.
Labour will most probably win the next election, whenever it is held, and whoever the Tory leader is. Given that, why the hell should the Tories do anything to precipitate an early election when they have a perfectly valid mandate to govern until 2022?
Corbyn's old, and a crazy communist - a lot could happen to burst his bubble in the next five years.
Good point. Why did Mrs May hold an election since in your own words the Tories "had a perfectly valid mandate to govern until 2020?"
In fact, she does not have a valid mandate now. The DUP would have voted with Labour on Nurses pay hence the climbdown.
If you are at all interested in the Article 50 talks, you should read Michel Barnier's speech in another Italian city. Here it is in full It sets out from the EU point of view very clearly where the talks are at, what the choices are, what needs to be addressed and where the blockages are. Presumably if these negotiations are going to go anywhere, Mrs May or her minions will need to address in short order each point that Barnier raises.
Why do we have to bow to the EU. It is this mindset that resulted in the leave vote
Indeed, it should be a negotiation, not a dictation. If it is the latter, perhaps no deal is better.
The process that you thought would be a doddle will instead be one of the biggest national humiliations in our history. Instead of volunteering the population of your home country to pay the price of this folly, you could just admit that you got it badly wrong.
I never said the process would be a doodle. I reacted to the likes of you and Mr Meeks saying it would inevitably takes years and years. There was never anything inevitable about this.
And, if you go back through the threads, you will see many posts in which I cautioned that if the EU took the approach that they are currently taking, then we'd be better off not negotiating at all, accepting that we should crash out, and resume negotiations years down the road when the EU was more interested in negotiating based on mutual interest, rather than putting primacy on signaling the costs of leaving the Union..
For negotiations to succeed, both parties have to act in good faith and there has to be a ZOPA. The EU, by focusing on sending a message to its remaining membership about the costs of exit in order to preserve the Union, chose to shrink the ZOPA massively. By insisting on the huge divorce bill and addressing everything they want before talking about a future relationship as required under Article 50 they have, in my view, destroyed the ZOPA completely.
So put words in your own mouth, not mine.
Right now the benefit of agreement to us is that we can maintain continuity on trade, movement of people, transport and a number of other programmes. That has a very high value for us. The price we would have to pay for that continuity is essentially money. That money price won't change if we put off negotiations until later but the continuity that we value will be lost. I am very sure you are miscalculating this, although it is an evaluation. The question is what calculation the government will make. The EU for its part seems fairly secure in its calculation.
Labour will most probably win the next election, whenever it is held, and whoever the Tory leader is. Given that, why the hell should the Tories do anything to precipitate an early election when they have a perfectly valid mandate to govern until 2022?
Corbyn's old, and a crazy communist - a lot could happen to burst his bubble in the next five years.
Good point. Why did Mrs May hold an election since in your own words the Tories "had a perfectly valid mandate to govern until 2020?"
In fact, she does not have a valid mandate now. The DUP would have voted with Labour on Nurses pay hence the climbdown.
Would they, in a vote of confidence? Hmm..
No. But that is not really the point. This is not a coalition,and there will be no automatic mandate for anything beyond the specified.
The Tories and DUP are a very poor fit on many areas of policy,
I haven't met any English people worried about dropping out to WTO terms. Mr Surbiton, yes, used to bang on about manufacturing - but turned out to work for a German company selling into the UK. The ones with their heads in their hands seem to be Scottish and Irish. What's the reason for the difference?
I haven't met any English people worried about dropping out to WTO terms. Mr Surbiton, yes, used to bang on about manufacturing - but turned out to work for a German company selling into the UK. The ones with their heads in their hands seem to be Scottish and Irish. What's the reason for the difference?
I haven't met any English people worried about dropping out to WTO terms. Mr Surbiton, yes, used to bang on about manufacturing - but turned out to work for a German company selling into the UK. The ones with their heads in their hands seem to be Scottish and Irish. What's the reason for the difference?
Possibly because Scots and Irish voted Remain, and don't want to go down with the sinking ship?
A ludicrous lack of logic there. The British government ignores the courts that have the power to compel it to act, so it must be subject to the rule of other courts based abroad that have absolutely no authority over it instead?
It's the more amusing of course as Barnier himself ignored an ECJ ruling to lift an illegal French export ban on our beef (and that blatantly political ban, in a further irony, cost us around £60 billion).
A ludicrous lack of logic there. The British government ignores the courts that have the power to compel it to act, so it must be subject to the rule of other courts based abroad that have absolutely no authority over it instead?
It's the more amusing of course as Barnier himself ignored an ECJ ruling to lift an illegal French export ban on our beef (and that blatantly political ban, in a further irony, cost us around £60 billion).
A ludicrous lack of logic there. The British government ignores the courts that have the power to compel it to act, so it must be subject to the rule of other courts based abroad that have absolutely no authority over it instead?
It's the more amusing of course as Barnier himself ignored an ECJ ruling to lift an illegal French export ban on our beef (and that blatantly political ban, in a further irony, cost us around £60 billion).
foxinsoxuk - but there are no reasons advanced for staying in the EU. I remember you, yourself, explaining that we should join the Euro because you would be saved a trifle of inconvenience in arranging currency on your frequent holidays in Europe. At least it was a reason, though there may be little sympathy for it. What reason do the others have?
It's the more amusing of course as Barnier himself ignored an ECJ ruling to lift an illegal French export ban on our beef (and that blatantly political ban, in a further irony, cost us around £60 billion).
And it was acts like that that ultimately added up to Brexit.
A ludicrous lack of logic there. The British government ignores the courts that have the power to compel it to act, so it must be subject to the rule of other courts based abroad that have absolutely no authority over it instead?
It's the more amusing of course as Barnier himself ignored an ECJ ruling to lift an illegal French export ban on our beef (and that blatantly political ban, in a further irony, cost us around £60 billion).
Why did the British government ignore its own courts ? Does it not believe in the rule of law ?
foxinsoxuk - but there are no reasons advanced for staying in the EU. I remember you, yourself, explaining that we should join the Euro because you would be saved a trifle of inconvenience in arranging currency on your frequent holidays in Europe. At least it was a reason, though there may be little sympathy for it. What reason do the others have?
What is our competitive advantage within the 'Anglosphere' if we have turned our backs on Europe and proven ourselves incapable of understanding how to succeed in our own continent?
foxinsoxuk - but there are no reasons advanced for staying in the EU. I remember you, yourself, explaining that we should join the Euro because you would be saved a trifle of inconvenience in arranging currency on your frequent holidays in Europe. At least it was a reason, though there may be little sympathy for it. What reason do the others have?
You have me mixed up. I have never advocated joining the Euro.
Brexiteers – and some Remainers – tell me I am wasting my time, it is going to happen, I should use my energies to try to help make it a success. But I cannot get behind something I believe to be so wrong, so incompetently handled, so against the interests of the next generation. I see no happy ending in this. I may not be wholly confident in thinking it can be stopped. But I am totally convinced it should be. And it is anything but anti democratic to say that in a democracy, people have the right to change their minds, and change course. I hope we do.
It's the more amusing of course as Barnier himself ignored an ECJ ruling to lift an illegal French export ban on our beef (and that blatantly political ban, in a further irony, cost us around £60 billion).
And it was acts like that that ultimately added up to Brexit.
(PS don't you mean 'import' ban?)
And how does any UK politician agree to this. I have maintained for a long time that if the EU are perceived to be unreasonable or want to punish the UK the voters will just want to walk away.
It may well end up with WTO - not the best answer but the EU will suffer as well and many workers in the EU will end up losing their jobs
I haven't met any English people worried about dropping out to WTO terms. Mr Surbiton, yes, used to bang on about manufacturing - but turned out to work for a German company selling into the UK. The ones with their heads in their hands seem to be Scottish and Irish. What's the reason for the difference?
Ironically, it will make very little difference to my firm as all our competitors are either German , Swiss or French. There are one or two Japanese but they export from Belgium. Says a lot about British capability in new technology!
That is why I keep saying it will make bugger all difference to BMW or Mercedes or Audi. They will still sell here even after duties. Will Qashqai be able to sell in the EU ? It probably can as long we fix a few devaluations down the road to overcome increased duties.
That is what Brexit is ultimately about. Our RIGHT to devalue our currency since otherwise we cannot compete on technology.
Of course, where Britain leads is in the financial sector. But without the "passport", it will be a handicap but not one which cannot be overcome. European offices will have to be opened with license. This , of course, means some profit will be earned in Europe.
Brexiteers – and some Remainers – tell me I am wasting my time, it is going to happen, I should use my energies to try to help make it a success. But I cannot get behind something I believe to be so wrong, so incompetently handled, so against the interests of the next generation. I see no happy ending in this. I may not be wholly confident in thinking it can be stopped. But I am totally convinced it should be. And it is anything but anti democratic to say that in a democracy, people have the right to change their minds, and change course. I hope we do.
Even a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day, nonetheless he sums up my position except that I do not think there is a realistic chance of stopping Brexit.
Brexiteers – and some Remainers – tell me I am wasting my time, it is going to happen, I should use my energies to try to help make it a success. But I cannot get behind something I believe to be so wrong, so incompetently handled, so against the interests of the next generation. I see no happy ending in this. I may not be wholly confident in thinking it can be stopped. But I am totally convinced it should be. And it is anything but anti democratic to say that in a democracy, people have the right to change their minds, and change course. I hope we do.
Even a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day, nonetheless he sums up my position except that I do not think there is a realistic chance of stopping Brexit.
If there were grown ups in the room, Juncker would have been sacked, the nations leaders all reject federalism and recognise free movement needs overhauling.
If this was on the horizon the whole crisis could be resolved. But then there are no grown ups in this crisis on either side
"Her task has been made many times tougher by the attention-seeking antics of her foreign secretary. Boris Johnson should have been sacked by now. He has become like a Donald Trump armed with a thesaurus and some knowledge of the classics – a flashy showman with flexible political opinions who, for all his bombastic rhetoric, focuses only on making Boris great. But, despite collateral damage to colleagues, nation and party, this selfish man will conclude that his mission has been accomplished. He’s prepared the ground to resign if needed, amid angry talk of Brexit “betrayal”.
As May prepared for her latest speech of a lifetime, equally significant was a blizzard of tweets from Johnson’s ally, Dominic Cummings, campaign director of Vote Leave and widely seen as the strategic brain behind Brexit. These were scathing about “the shambles now unfolding”, which he blamed on the “historic unforgivable blunder” of triggering article 50 too fast and, before adequate preparation. He is right: Britain is in a sorry mess and part of the problem was entering negotiations too soon. Article 50 was designed with a two-year timeframe to deter departures."
I thought Art.50 had to be invoked by the end of March so that we did not have to hold the Euro elections ! The Leavers did not want that.
If there were grown ups in the room, Juncker would have been sacked, the nations leaders all reject federalism and recognise free movement needs overhauling.
Name one national leader who thinks free movement within the EU should end.
A ludicrous lack of logic there. The British government ignores the courts that have the power to compel it to act, so it must be subject to the rule of other courts based abroad that have absolutely no authority over it instead?
It's the more amusing of course as Barnier himself ignored an ECJ ruling to lift an illegal French export ban on our beef (and that blatantly political ban, in a further irony, cost us around £60 billion).
Why did the British government ignore its own courts ? Does it not believe in the rule of law ?
It's saying it didn't, rather the order was given too late.
If there were grown ups in the room, Juncker would have been sacked, the nations leaders all reject federalism and recognise free movement needs overhauling.
Name one national leader who thinks free movement within the EU should end.
If there were grown ups in the room, Juncker would have been sacked, the nations leaders all reject federalism and recognise free movement needs overhauling.
Name one national leader who thinks free movement within the EU should end.
Where did I say it should end. The word I used 'overhauled' is not the end of movement between nations in the EU but accommodation to individual nation states requirements
foxinsoxuk - but there are no reasons advanced for staying in the EU. I remember you, yourself, explaining that we should join the Euro because you would be saved a trifle of inconvenience in arranging currency on your frequent holidays in Europe. At least it was a reason, though there may be little sympathy for it. What reason do the others have?
What is our competitive advantage within the 'Anglosphere' if we have turned our backs on Europe and proven ourselves incapable of understanding how to succeed in our own continent?
They have one. We will buy Australian, New Zealand and US farm products and make sure our farmers go bankrupt.
foxinsoxuk - but there are no reasons advanced for staying in the EU. I remember you, yourself, explaining that we should join the Euro because you would be saved a trifle of inconvenience in arranging currency on your frequent holidays in Europe. At least it was a reason, though there may be little sympathy for it. What reason do the others have?
What is our competitive advantage within the 'Anglosphere' if we have turned our backs on Europe and proven ourselves incapable of understanding how to succeed in our own continent?
They have one. We will buy Australian, New Zealand and US farm products and make sure our farmers go bankrupt.
Think how much subsidy will be saved.
Makes you wonder how NZ farmers survive without subsidies.
surbiton - the shine is coming off BMW, Mercedes and Audi. None of these manufacturers can meet American standards for diesel engines. JLR does. Will we continue to accept German standards as equivalent to our own when they clearly aren't? When we have a choice outside the EU? Just 2000 Volkswagen's TDIs are responsible for 50% of the NO2 pollution in London. Why would we allow it?
foxinsoxuk - but there are no reasons advanced for staying in the EU. I remember you, yourself, explaining that we should join the Euro because you would be saved a trifle of inconvenience in arranging currency on your frequent holidays in Europe. At least it was a reason, though there may be little sympathy for it. What reason do the others have?
What is our competitive advantage within the 'Anglosphere' if we have turned our backs on Europe and proven ourselves incapable of understanding how to succeed in our own continent?
They have one. We will buy Australian, New Zealand and US farm products and make sure our farmers go bankrupt.
Think how much subsidy will be saved.
Makes you wonder how NZ farmers survive without subsidies.
Lower cost of production, maybe ? British farmers are weaned on high prices and guzzling subsidy.
If there were grown ups in the room, Juncker would have been sacked, the nations leaders all reject federalism and recognise free movement needs overhauling.
Name one national leader who thinks free movement within the EU should end.
Isn't Freedom of Movement racist against citizens of non-EU nations?
foxinsoxuk - but there are no reasons advanced for staying in the EU. I remember you, yourself, explaining that we should join the Euro because you would be saved a trifle of inconvenience in arranging currency on your frequent holidays in Europe. At least it was a reason, though there may be little sympathy for it. What reason do the others have?
What is our competitive advantage within the 'Anglosphere' if we have turned our backs on Europe and proven ourselves incapable of understanding how to succeed in our own continent?
They have one. We will buy Australian, New Zealand and US farm products and make sure our farmers go bankrupt.
Think how much subsidy will be saved.
Makes you wonder how NZ farmers survive without subsidies.
Cheap land and the best farmland in the world?
Mostly though it was forced on them. NZ really has only two export industries, tourism and agriculture. They realised that taxing farmers to pay farmers was daft.
On topic, it's not completely impossible for May to turn it around. Corbyn was doing a lot worse than May is now a year ago and he is now in a very strong position.
Who knows what might happen in the next 5 years.
Corbyn needed a few tweaks and fine tunings to get a grip of his poor ratings....not to get tetchy under scrutiny for instance....
May needs to replace her brain with the brain of someone who isn't robotic and shows a bit of personality.
Corbyn was practically being carried away by the men in white coats in his own party before the election. It wasn't just a case of fine tuning.
Corbyn's ability to soldier on despite the mass resignations and press frenzy following the EU vote was one of the most remarkable pieces of political tenacity, courage and resilience shown by any leader in any democracy. To face down his internal opposition, win a resounding leadership campaign and then deprive May of a majority was quite astonishing.
I'm no Corbynite by any stretch, but I admire him. I cannot see any Tory leader who would beat him in a GE given present circumstances.
Corbyn has to win three times as many seats next time as he did in 2017 and to do so in seats which require a direct swing from Tory to Labour. it is unlikely. As for Corbyn's survival post Brexit, it was one of the most undemocratic events in our history as MPs with millions of votes mandating them were ignored at the expense of thousands. As for the 2017 election, Labour would be in power right now if Corbyn were not leader.
If there were grown ups in the room, Juncker would have been sacked, the nations leaders all reject federalism and recognise free movement needs overhauling.
Name one national leader who thinks free movement within the EU should end.
Isn't Freedom of Movement racist against citizens of non-EU nations?
surbiton - the shine is coming off BMW, Mercedes and Audi. None of these manufacturers can meet American standards for diesel engines. JLR does. Will we continue to accept German standards as equivalent to our own when they clearly aren't? When we have a choice outside the EU? Just 2000 Volkswagen's TDIs are responsible for 50% of the NO2 pollution in London. Why would we allow it?
Greenpeace actively campaigning to keep VW diesels out of the UK
surbiton - the shine is coming off BMW, Mercedes and Audi. None of these manufacturers can meet American standards for diesel engines. JLR does. Will we continue to accept German standards as equivalent to our own when they clearly aren't? When we have a choice outside the EU? Just 2000 Volkswagen's TDIs are responsible for 50% of the NO2 pollution in London. Why would we allow it?
Do it then ? Who will produce the first electric cars ? I sell in JLR. It is still in a different century though the Tatas have made huge advances admittedly. The Rover directors creamed off money, Ford could not make any money, and the old BL, the less we say the better.
If you instead go to BMW Hams Hall, you will think you are entering a hospital operation theatre. It is so clean. When it comes to producing cars for the mass market, there is only one country.
In any case, I thought Slovakia made more cars than Britain.
If there were grown ups in the room, Juncker would have been sacked, the nations leaders all reject federalism and recognise free movement needs overhauling.
Name one national leader who thinks free movement within the EU should end.
The worrying thing is, Blair is a complete chump, but there is a realistic possiblity that he has the respect of people in the eu whose respect is worth having, and the intellect and adulthood required to have a constructive discussion with them; unlike anyone in government.
Btw whom is she addressing in Florence? I was assuming that there was some eu summity thing going on, but is there? Or has she just randomly booked a church hall to orate in like she did in the GE "campaign"?
surbiton - the shine is coming off BMW, Mercedes and Audi. None of these manufacturers can meet American standards for diesel engines. JLR does. Will we continue to accept German standards as equivalent to our own when they clearly aren't? When we have a choice outside the EU? Just 2000 Volkswagen's TDIs are responsible for 50% of the NO2 pollution in London. Why would we allow it?
Greenpeace actively campaigning to keep VW diesels out of the UK
My new X5 is petrol/electric plug-in. Diesel, what diesel ?
A few years back there were sad stories about African countries suffering from toxic waste dumping. But we are in exactly the same position. The EU countries have decided that their car manufactuers don't need to meet EU regulations (let alone USA regulations). We have had to accept these cars, toxic dumping as the Africans have suffered - and we won't have to in the future. These cars should be taxed off the roads.
Btw whom is she addressing in Florence? I was assuming that there was some eu summity thing going on, but is there? Or has she just randomly booked a church hall to orate in like she did in the GE "campaign"?
The latter. Whereas Barnier spoke today in the Italian parliament.
On topic, it's not completely impossible for May to turn it around. Corbyn was doing a lot worse than May is now a year ago and he is now in a very strong position.
Who knows what might happen in the next 5 years.
Corbyn needed a few tweaks and fine tunings to get a grip of his poor ratings....not to get tetchy under scrutiny for instance....
May needs to replace her brain with the brain of someone who isn't robotic and shows a bit of personality.
Corbyn was practically being carried away by the men in white coats in his own party before the election. It wasn't just a case of fine tuning.
Corbyn's ability to soldier on despite the mass resignations and press frenzy following the EU vote was one of the most remarkable pieces of political tenacity, courage and resilience shown by any leader in any democracy. To face down his internal opposition, win a resounding leadership campaign and then deprive May of a majority was quite astonishing.
I'm no Corbynite by any stretch, but I admire him. I cannot see any Tory leader who would beat him in a GE given present circumstances.
Corbyn has to win three times as many seats next time as he did in 2017 and to do so in seats which require a direct swing from Tory to Labour. it is unlikely. As for Corbyn's survival post Brexit, it was one of the most undemocratic events in our history as MPs with millions of votes mandating them were ignored at the expense of thousands. As for the 2017 election, Labour would be in power right now if Corbyn were not leader.
There already is swing from Conservative to labour. But Labour will win another 20 seats, at least, in Scotland on only a 3.5% swing against the SNP.
How long before O'Leary is forced out of Ryanair - I cannot recall more of a PR disaster since Ratner.
Shareholders calling him a clown and he agreed with them !!!!!
Rumours going around that a lot of pilots are going to be ‘sick’ next week. MOL is surely getting very close to being fired, this whole saga is completely of his own making and it’s costing the company millions a day.
surbiton - the shine is coming off BMW, Mercedes and Audi. None of these manufacturers can meet American standards for diesel engines. JLR does. Will we continue to accept German standards as equivalent to our own when they clearly aren't? When we have a choice outside the EU? Just 2000 Volkswagen's TDIs are responsible for 50% of the NO2 pollution in London. Why would we allow it?
I am not sure I understand your potentially spurious use of statistics? 2,000 VW Group Turbo Diesel cars are responsible for 50% of all NO2 pollution in London? The remaining 998,000 cars in London must individually be virtually pollution free in the Nitrogen Dioxide department?
Forgive me if I am wrong but your figures look highly unlikely.
surbiton - the shine is coming off BMW, Mercedes and Audi. None of these manufacturers can meet American standards for diesel engines. JLR does. Will we continue to accept German standards as equivalent to our own when they clearly aren't? When we have a choice outside the EU? Just 2000 Volkswagen's TDIs are responsible for 50% of the NO2 pollution in London. Why would we allow it?
Greenpeace actively campaigning to keep VW diesels out of the UK
Can't meet standards even with the doctored software? LOL.
Brexiteers – and some Remainers – tell me I am wasting my time, it is going to happen, I should use my energies to try to help make it a success. But I cannot get behind something I believe to be so wrong, so incompetently handled, so against the interests of the next generation. I see no happy ending in this. I may not be wholly confident in thinking it can be stopped. But I am totally convinced it should be. And it is anything but anti democratic to say that in a democracy, people have the right to change their minds, and change course. I hope we do.
Funny just yesterday lots of Remainers on here were claimimgbthat no one was trying to srop Brexit.
Brexiteers – and some Remainers – tell me I am wasting my time, it is going to happen, I should use my energies to try to help make it a success. But I cannot get behind something I believe to be so wrong, so incompetently handled, so against the interests of the next generation. I see no happy ending in this. I may not be wholly confident in thinking it can be stopped. But I am totally convinced it should be. And it is anything but anti democratic to say that in a democracy, people have the right to change their minds, and change course. I hope we do.
Funny just yesterday lots of Remainers on here were claimimgbthat no one was trying to srop Brexit.
I respect the vote last year too. It's the vote last year that will lead to the political destruction of the Brexiteers.
surbiton - the shine is coming off BMW, Mercedes and Audi. None of these manufacturers can meet American standards for diesel engines. JLR does. Will we continue to accept German standards as equivalent to our own when they clearly aren't? When we have a choice outside the EU? Just 2000 Volkswagen's TDIs are responsible for 50% of the NO2 pollution in London. Why would we allow it?
I am not sure I understand your potentially spurious use of statistics? 2,000 VW Group Turbo Diesel cars are responsible for 50% of all NO2 pollution in London? The remaining 998,000 cars in London must individually be virtually pollution free in the Nitrogen Dioxide department?
Forgive me if I am wrong but your figures look highly unlikely.
If there were grown ups in the room, Juncker would have been sacked, the nations leaders all reject federalism and recognise free movement needs overhauling.
Name one national leader who thinks free movement within the EU should end.
The worrying thing is, Blair is a complete chump, but there is a realistic possiblity that he has the respect of people in the eu whose respect is worth having, and the intellect and adulthood required to have a constructive discussion with them; unlike anyone in government.
Btw whom is she addressing in Florence? I was assuming that there was some eu summity thing going on, but is there? Or has she just randomly booked a church hall to orate in like she did in the GE "campaign"?
The rebate scandal suggests we were never respected no matter how much we played ball.
surbiton - the shine is coming off BMW, Mercedes and Audi. None of these manufacturers can meet American standards for diesel engines. JLR does. Will we continue to accept German standards as equivalent to our own when they clearly aren't? When we have a choice outside the EU? Just 2000 Volkswagen's TDIs are responsible for 50% of the NO2 pollution in London. Why would we allow it?
Greenpeace actively campaigning to keep VW diesels out of the UK
My new X5 is petrol/electric plug-in. Diesel, what diesel ?
Btw whom is she addressing in Florence? I was assuming that there was some eu summity thing going on, but is there? Or has she just randomly booked a church hall to orate in like she did in the GE "campaign"?
She is addressing Johnson, Hammond and Davis apparently.
Comments
Mr. Price, indeed, it's contrarian madness.
"Sort the Irish border, then the trade agreement!"
"But the trade agreement will largely determine the border settlement..."
Barnier.
That to me is a bit amazing. Surely we know whether we want one by now...?
"Mr. CD13, I knew that."
I know you knew, but it gave me a good excuse to point out other similarities with a gang of women. Any carelessness will cause an explosion. Best keep them separated.
I think I'll stop there.
Mr. Glenn, the 'North'? Depends which bit. North Yorkshire is very blue, and West Yorkshire is full of marginals. The decline of UKIP does help the reds a lot.
But does hate have any place in the kinder politics?
Another point. People who complain that this is a dictation, not a negotiation don't accept the relative bargaining strengths of each party. If we want to change that we need to start finding out what do the other party really want that we have, so we can trade it..
https://monocle.com/magazine/issues/101/eyes-on-the-elysee/
I am a hard Brexiter. I think that Europe has made a mistake negotiating the inter-governmental accord [the “special status” deal David Cameron struck with the EU in February last year]. It created a precedent, which is that a single state can twist the European debate to its own interests. Cameron was toying with Europe and we agreed to go along with it, which was a big mistake.
Britain must understand that our interest in the medium to long term is to have clear rules. So if Britain wants to trade with Europe it has to choose a model, such as the Swiss, Norwegian or Canadian. We have to accept that there are losses. But it’s the British who will lose the most. You cannot enjoy rights in Europe if you are not a member – otherwise it will fall apart. Europe is what has enabled us since 1945, in an unprecedented way, to preserve peace, security, freedom and prosperity in our continent. The British are making a serious mistake over the long term. Boris Johnson enjoys giving flamboyant speeches but has no strategic vision; the turmoil he created the day after Brexit proves it. Nigel Farage and Mr Johnson are responsible for this crime: they sailed the ship into battle and jumped overboard at the moment of crisis. Theresa May has handled it but what has been happening since then? On the geopolitical level as well as on the financial, realignment and submission to the US. What is going to happen is not “taking back control”: it’s servitude.
Corbyn's old, and a crazy communist - a lot could happen to burst his bubble in the next five years.
We’re going to get a disorderly Brexit that damages the country to the point where the voters demand we rejoin the EU replete with the Euro et al.
We should have planned for a five year orderly transition.
Instead we’ve got Boris, Liam Fox, and David Davis trying to get it done in 18 months.
It created a precedent, which is that a single state can twist the European debate to its own interests - Like France never would
medium to long term is to have clear rules - Like France always obeys them
And, if you go back through the threads, you will see many posts in which I cautioned that if the EU took the approach that they are currently taking, then we'd be better off not negotiating at all, accepting that we should crash out, and resume negotiations years down the road when the EU was more interested in negotiating based on mutual interest, rather than putting primacy on signaling the costs of leaving the Union.
For negotiations to succeed, both parties have to act in good faith and there has to be a ZOPA. The EU, by focusing on sending a message to its remaining membership about the costs of exit in order to preserve the Union, chose to shrink the ZOPA massively. By insisting on the huge divorce bill and addressing everything they want before talking about a future relationship as required under Article 50 they have, in my view, destroyed the ZOPA completely.
So put words in your own mouth, not mine.
In fact, she does not have a valid mandate now. The DUP would have voted with Labour on Nurses pay hence the climbdown.
I should be going after him, Enid Blyton and Agatha Christie.
The DUP won't let Commie become PM, no matter how much they may wish to flex their independence on irrelevant, non-binding votes.
The headline is "Conservatives Scrap Labour plan for 26 000 more homes."
In the words of Sgt. Wilson, Do you really think that is wise, Sir?
The Tories and DUP are a very poor fit on many areas of policy,
[ducks]
https://twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/910907970913030149
Best get those bulldozers out and HMRC staff recruited. Just 18 months to go....
It's the more amusing of course as Barnier himself ignored an ECJ ruling to lift an illegal French export ban on our beef (and that blatantly political ban, in a further irony, cost us around £60 billion).
Awkward.
It does look like we are not going to do a deal.
Would they treat us like this if they wanted to do a trade deal if we were just an independent country?
No. It's only because we a leaving. So they are not acting reasonably.
(PS don't you mean 'import' ban?)
To paraphrase Bakunin: To build, we must first demolish.
https://twitter.com/tradedealwatch/status/910795332342157313
Our economy is to weak to cope.
http://www.alastaircampbell.org/blog/2017/09/21/speech-why-i-find-it-impossible-to-get-behind-brexit-and-why-mps-and-business-need-to-fight-harder-against-it/
Brexiteers – and some Remainers – tell me I am wasting my time, it is going to happen, I should use my energies to try to help make it a success. But I cannot get behind something I believe to be so wrong, so incompetently handled, so against the interests of the next generation. I see no happy ending in this. I may not be wholly confident in thinking it can be stopped. But I am totally convinced it should be. And it is anything but anti democratic to say that in a democracy, people have the right to change their minds, and change course. I hope we do.
It may well end up with WTO - not the best answer but the EU will suffer as well and many workers in the EU will end up losing their jobs
That is why I keep saying it will make bugger all difference to BMW or Mercedes or Audi. They will still sell here even after duties. Will Qashqai be able to sell in the EU ? It probably can as long we fix a few devaluations down the road to overcome increased duties.
That is what Brexit is ultimately about. Our RIGHT to devalue our currency since otherwise we cannot compete on technology.
Of course, where Britain leads is in the financial sector. But without the "passport", it will be a handicap but not one which cannot be overcome. European offices will have to be opened with license. This , of course, means some profit will be earned in Europe.
If this was on the horizon the whole crisis could be resolved. But then there are no grown ups in this crisis on either side
"Her task has been made many times tougher by the attention-seeking antics of her foreign secretary. Boris Johnson should have been sacked by now. He has become like a Donald Trump armed with a thesaurus and some knowledge of the classics – a flashy showman with flexible political opinions who, for all his bombastic rhetoric, focuses only on making Boris great. But, despite collateral damage to colleagues, nation and party, this selfish man will conclude that his mission has been accomplished. He’s prepared the ground to resign if needed, amid angry talk of Brexit “betrayal”.
As May prepared for her latest speech of a lifetime, equally significant was a blizzard of tweets from Johnson’s ally, Dominic Cummings, campaign director of Vote Leave and widely seen as the strategic brain behind Brexit. These were scathing about “the shambles now unfolding”, which he blamed on the “historic unforgivable blunder” of triggering article 50 too fast and, before adequate preparation. He is right: Britain is in a sorry mess and part of the problem was entering negotiations too soon. Article 50 was designed with a two-year timeframe to deter departures."
I thought Art.50 had to be invoked by the end of March so that we did not have to hold the Euro elections ! The Leavers did not want that.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-blair/eu-leaders-willing-to-compromise-on-freedom-of-movement-says-tony-blair-idUSKBN1A0086
Think how much subsidy will be saved.
Mostly though it was forced on them. NZ really has only two export industries, tourism and agriculture. They realised that taxing farmers to pay farmers was daft.
Shareholders calling him a clown and he agreed with them !!!!!
If you instead go to BMW Hams Hall, you will think you are entering a hospital operation theatre. It is so clean. When it comes to producing cars for the mass market, there is only one country.
In any case, I thought Slovakia made more cars than Britain.
Btw whom is she addressing in Florence? I was assuming that there was some eu summity thing going on, but is there? Or has she just randomly booked a church hall to orate in like she did in the GE "campaign"?
Forgive me if I am wrong but your figures look highly unlikely.
Exodus.