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Charles said:

Benpointer said:

Charles said:

Benpointer said:

Charles said:

stodge said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. B, yeah. Just like the tax question. Taxes should go up for the rich to pay for vital services, where 'the rich' are people who earn more than me, and 'vital services' are ones that I use.

To take the latter first and it's not surprising bookmakers are courting the support of MPs. They are frankly parasites and their High Street FOBTs are despicable. Gambling is a serious addiction yet whereas we try with smoking to warn people of the risks, successive Governments have liberalised gambling. The shops in East Ham open from 8am to 10pm and are places where I see people spending all day every day.

As for the former, companies need to be in the forefront of promoting a more caring and compassionate capitalism and not just paying lip service to customer service charters. Some firms are no doubt very good at this but there are others (and I suspect it's employees given unreasonable sales targets) who take the opportunity to prey on the vulnerable. That cannot be condoned.

How would you propose Sky should have figured out he had Alzheimer's?

The bank I work for has in the past two years introduced a lot of mandatory staff training on identifying and supporting vulnerable customers. I don't say they get it right all the time, and there have certainly been terrible incidents in the past but at least they are making an effort. I wonder how much training the Sky sales teams get? - it can be done.

Sure it can be done. But as I understand it he ordered the package (and used it) for 2 years before he was diagnosed.

I suppose you could argue that if a subscription product is not used for 12 months then companies should have a duty to revalidate the customer's needs, but in absence of a legal obligation that would be quite a burden for a company to voluntarily assume

Yes, fair enough - I don't know the individual circumstances and there are often two sides, but free market capitalism encourages all sorts of exploitation.

Your argument seems to be "the facts don't support me but I'm still right!" ...

(It is also why we have regulated market capitalism rather than free market capitalism...)

In fact Charles that was my point - we need the regulation as well as the market. But there are still a few dangerous neoliberals close to power (e.g. Fox, JRM) who want to push us further towards unfettered free marketism. Time to row back and have a country that works better for everyone.

I don't agree that Andrew Neil should be sacked. I do think that he has massively overstepped the boundary that any competent journalist should hold themselves to when considering Brexit, acting as a cheerleader rather than a seeker of truth. He's been doing the job long enough to know that.

And no, I don't think any of those TV journalists pinpointed as Remainers have behaved anywhere near as badly.

One big problem I have with this idea that Labour's path to power looks increasingly likely is that it is ignoring the increasing divisions in Labour's electoral base. A key reason why Corbyn did as well as he did at the GE was that he managed to bridge the divide between the traditional Northern / Midlands WWC base and the metropolitan / liberal, middle class base - both sides found comfort in his comments and views. Even them, that did not stop Labour seeing erosion in its core base in many areas.

Over the past few weeks though, on policy terms, Corbyn has aligned himself with the metropolitan base, chiefly on the new Brexit policy but also in the Sarah Champion affair and his downplaying of the racial/ religious aspects of the grooming gangs. One wonders how much he is being influenced by Thornberry and Abbott. But the signal it sends to the traditional base of voters is their views count for less in the Labour party.

That is likely to turn out to be a mistake. The traditional base has shown a willingness to desert Labour over the past few elections. And a lot of the Yes vote for Brexit seems to have been driven by a desire by poorer demographics to send a FU signal to their "betters". If that base sees Labour as now in the hands of the middle-class types, the desertion rates will accelerate.

(It also has implications for Parliamentary votes. The focus has been on how Remain Tory MPs like Soubry and Morgan will vote but less so that the Brexiteers are likely to be able to count on the votes of Labour MPs such as Hoey, Mann and Stringer amongst others).

Funnily enough, I think the wild card that could bring this to a crunch is what happens in the UKIP leadership race, not because I think UKIP will suddenly take back masses of votes but because, if Anne-Marie Waters did actually snatch it, then it will go hard and loud in many of these Northern / Midland WWC towns on Labour's links with the Muslim community and the failure of Labour councils to take action. I could see that dissuading some Labour voters voting for the party, even if they do not switch.

malcolmg said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/904294403820314624

Andrew Neil is by far the best politics presenter on the TV today, this is a ridiculous tweet

Shows how dire things are when shreddie is the best, sad days.

Afternoon Malc!

NickPalmer said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

HYUFD said:

The key reason the Tories are on 38% in this Survation poll is that UKIP are on 4%, up 3% on the 1% they got at the last general election. The priority for the Tories then must be to squeeze back the UKIP vote, if they did that they would be on 41% and would then only need to take 1% from Labour to be back to level pegging.

Been drinking some of that wishful-thinking brew again?

(I can spot it, 'cos I do it myself occasionally )

It is a fact though, if Labour was on 38% and say the Greens on 4% I would equally advise Corbyn to squeeze the Green vote first but he has already successfully done that

The problem is that there is not an automatic Tory 2nd pref for UKIP voters, as we saw at the GE. Where uKIP collapsed, the Tories benefited, but by much less than they expected, as many Kippers reverted to former Labour voting.

Yet some think Labour could become the party of Remain and would be able to hold on the kippers who returned home. Corbyn did incredibly well by building a broad coalition, offering to be all things to all people - it's not sustainable...

AlastairMeeks said:

I don't agree that Andrew Neil should be sacked. I do think that he has massively overstepped the boundary that any competent journalist should hold themselves to when considering Brexit, acting as a cheerleader rather than a seeker of truth. He's been doing the job long enough to know that.

And no, I don't think any of those TV journalists pinpointed as Remainers have behaved anywhere near as badly.

In that case you are blind and deaf. The cheerleading for Remain and against Brexit has been massive amongst TV and radio journalists. They have abandoned all semblance of neutrality and it is only because your share their views that you don't see it.

Benpointer said:

Charles said:

Benpointer said:

Charles said:

Benpointer said:

Charles said:

stodge said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. B, yeah. Just like the tax question. Taxes should go up for the rich to pay for vital services, where 'the rich' are people who earn more than me, and 'vital services' are ones that I use.

To take the latter first and it's not surprising bookmakers are courting the support of MPs. They are frankly parasites and their High Street FOBTs are despicable. Gambling is a serious addiction yet whereas we try with smoking to warn people of the risks, successive Governments have liberalised gambling. The shops in East Ham open from 8am to 10pm and are places where I see people spending all day every day.

As for the former, companies need to be in the forefront of promoting a more caring and compassionate capitalism and not just paying lip service to customer service charters. Some firms are no doubt very good at this but there are others (and I suspect it's employees given unreasonable sales targets) who take the opportunity to prey on the vulnerable. That cannot be condoned.

How would you propose Sky should have figured out he had Alzheimer's?

The bank I work for has in the past two years introduced a lot of mandatory staff training on identifying and supporting vulnerable customers. I don't say they get it right all the time, and there have certainly been terrible incidents in the past but at least they are making an effort. I wonder how much training the Sky sales teams get? - it can be done.

Sure it can be done. But as I understand it he ordered the package (and used it) for 2 years before he was diagnosed.

I suppose you could argue that if a subscription product is not used for 12 months then companies should have a duty to revalidate the customer's needs, but in absence of a legal obligation that would be quite a burden for a company to voluntarily assume

Yes, fair enough - I don't know the individual circumstances and there are often two sides, but free market capitalism encourages all sorts of exploitation.

Your argument seems to be "the facts don't support me but I'm still right!" ...

(It is also why we have regulated market capitalism rather than free market capitalism...)

In fact Charles that was my point - we need the regulation as well as the market. But there are still a few dangerous neoliberals close to power (e.g. Fox, JRM) who want to push us further towards unfettered free marketism. Time to row back and have a country that works better for everyone.

Well that certainly won't be the case if the socialists get anywhere near power.

rkrkrk said:

foxinsoxuk said:

rkrkrk said:

FPT

foxinsoxuk said:

It is worth remembering where Daw Aung San Suu Kyi gets her authority, and also why this is vulnerable. Her father Aung San is recognised by the Burmese as the founder of the nation as well as its armed forces. He fought the British and British Indian colonial armies his whole life, and Burmese Muslims are seen as colonists.

Let's be honest - the West and particularly the left - have been absolutely conned by her. I completely include myself in that.

She is a politician, not a saint, and for most of her career was a politician in opposition. Political purity rarely survives long when it encounters the compromises of power.

The treatment of the Rohingya is deplorable, but control of the security forces in Burma is fragile at the best of times, and in frontier districts in particular. Multiculturalism is difficult for most countries to manage, but is particularly so for a place with such a fragile embryonic democracy.

I'm not looking for a saint, just someone who is against genocide.
I don't feel that's setting the bar so very high.

If anything the situation seems to have gotten worse since she was released.

Witnesses say children are being beheaded and families burned alive....

The background to this latest (and I agree genocidal) heavy response to the Rohingya is the attack by armed and trained ARSA militants on police and border posts. This is an ominous Jihadi development.

I do not agree with the response, and it is likely to be counterproductive, but in guerilla wars, the civilians are the first and universal victims.

SouthamObserver said:

The Adnois Tweet about Neil is as ridiculous as all the right-wing conspiracy theories about the BBC being opposed to Brexit and biased against the right.

Yes - it's ridiculous. But what do you expect from twitter?

Here's a fun fact: the editor of the Today programme is Sarah sands, who was editor of the Evening Standard when it backed Boris Johnson and Zac Goldsmith for London mayor. Of course, both were also prominent Leave advocates.

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

Scott_P said:

HYUFD said:

Andrew Neil is by far the best politics presenter on the TV today, this is a ridiculous tweet

He got badly pwned on FTA

https://twitter.com/profchalmers/status/904287398401626113

Is the UK seeking single market membership, no, so anything else will be a FTA of some form

The UK is seeking an agreement that goes beyond trade, so clearly what is finally agreed will not be an FTA.

Andrew Neil also aggressively asserted that Switzerland is in the single market, so for him to characterise the even more complex bilateral relationship the UK is seeking as 'just an FTA' is highly disingenuous.

chrisoxon said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I don't agree that Andrew Neil should be sacked. I do think that he has massively overstepped the boundary that any competent journalist should hold themselves to when considering Brexit, acting as a cheerleader rather than a seeker of truth. He's been doing the job long enough to know that.

And no, I don't think any of those TV journalists pinpointed as Remainers have behaved anywhere near as badly.

In that case you are blind and deaf. The cheerleading for Remain and against Brexit has been massive amongst TV and radio journalists. They have abandoned all semblance of neutrality and it is only because your share their views that you don't see it.

You're mistaking cheerleading with asking pertinent questions.

Start following Faisal Islam on Twitter and you'll see what Richard means...

Pretty much all of what Faisal Islam puts up comes in the category of "pertinent questions". Bedwetting Leavers who have no answers cry foul.

HYUFD said:

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Housing, NHS, student fees and young people must be the conservatives top priority together with dealing with the fat cats, both in the public and private sectors, to achieve the centre ground and win in 2022

Housing - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
NHS - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Student fees - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Young people - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Fatcats - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne

You were warned, repeatedly.

Yet Conservative supporters here ra-ra-raad as Cameron and Osborne shifted the Conservatives from promoting aspiration to defending privilege.

It is now no surprise that the Tory who polls worst against Corbyn (according to last month's Survation), Hammond, is also the senior Tory most closely backed by Osborne. Apart from his inheritance tax cut there isn't much Osborne was promoting Corbyn could not capitalise on in June 2017

The robbing of the young
The funding of vanity projects while public services were cut
The trashing of "we're all in this together"
The doom and disaster predictions which were shown to be false

Now if you look at the mentality behind Osborne's policies they make sense on a short term tactical basis - old people vote and the young don't, people like their houses to rise in value, keep people spending on consumer tat and foreign holidays.

But in a longer term strategic sense they're disastrous for the Conservatives and not good for the country.

To a large extent true, though to be fair to him Osborne's inheritance tax cut was the most popular policy the Tories have had for years and forced Brown to abandon his plans for a general election in 2007

Did I ever mention that I suggested on ConHome that the IHT threshold should be raised to £1m before Osborne did so.

In any case Brown had already lost his bottle irrespective of anything the Conservatives did at their conference - courageous decision taking was never his style.

williamglenn said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

Scott_P said:

HYUFD said:

Andrew Neil is by far the best politics presenter on the TV today, this is a ridiculous tweet

He got badly pwned on FTA

https://twitter.com/profchalmers/status/904287398401626113

Is the UK seeking single market membership, no, so anything else will be a FTA of some form

The UK is seeking an agreement that goes beyond trade, so clearly what is finally agreed will not be an FTA.

Andrew Neil also aggressively asserted that Switzerland is in the single market, so for him to characterise the even more complex bilateral relationship the UK is seeking as 'just an FTA' is highly disingenuous.

Switzerland's relationship with the EU is built on bilateral agreements

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Housing, NHS, student fees and young people must be the conservatives top priority together with dealing with the fat cats, both in the public and private sectors, to achieve the centre ground and win in 2022

Housing - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
NHS - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Student fees - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Young people - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Fatcats - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne

You were warned, repeatedly.

Yet Conservative supporters here ra-ra-raad as Cameron and Osborne shifted the Conservatives from promoting aspiration to defending privilege.

It is now no surprise that the Tory who polls worst against Corbyn (according to last month's Survation), Hammond, is also the senior Tory most closely backed by Osborne. Apart from his inheritance tax cut there isn't much Osborne was promoting Corbyn could not capitalise on in June 2017

The robbing of the young
The funding of vanity projects while public services were cut
The trashing of "we're all in this together"
The doom and disaster predictions which were shown to be false

Now if you look at the mentality behind Osborne's policies they make sense on a short term tactical basis - old people vote and the young don't, people like their houses to rise in value, keep people spending on consumer tat and foreign holidays.

But in a longer term strategic sense they're disastrous for the Conservatives and not good for the country.

To a large extent true, though to be fair to him Osborne's inheritance tax cut was the most popular policy the Tories have had for years and forced Brown to abandon his plans for a general election in 2007

Did I ever mention that I suggested on ConHome that the IHT threshold should be raised to £1m before Osborne did so.

In any case Brown had already lost his bottle irrespective of anything the Conservatives did at their conference - courageous decision taking was never his style.

Well it looks like Osborne could have done with following your advice more frequently

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Housing, NHS, student fees and young people must be the conservatives top priority together with dealing with the fat cats, both in the public and private sectors, to achieve the centre ground and win in 2022

Housing - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
NHS - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Student fees - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Young people - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Fatcats - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne

You were warned, repeatedly.

Yet Conservative supporters here ra-ra-raad as Cameron and Osborne shifted the Conservatives from promoting aspiration to defending privilege.

It is now no surprise that the Tory who polls worst against Corbyn (according to last month's Survation), Hammond, is also the senior Tory most closely backed by Osborne. Apart from his inheritance tax cut there isn't much Osborne was promoting Corbyn could not capitalise on in June 2017

The robbing of the young
The funding of vanity projects while public services were cut
The trashing of "we're all in this together"
The doom and disaster predictions which were shown to be false

Now if you look at the mentality behind Osborne's policies they make sense on a short term tactical basis - old people vote and the young don't, people like their houses to rise in value, keep people spending on consumer tat and foreign holidays.

But in a longer term strategic sense they're disastrous for the Conservatives and not good for the country.

To a large extent true, though to be fair to him Osborne's inheritance tax cut was the most popular policy the Tories have had for years and forced Brown to abandon his plans for a general election in 2007

Did I ever mention that I suggested on ConHome that the IHT threshold should be raised to £1m before Osborne did so.

In any case Brown had already lost his bottle irrespective of anything the Conservatives did at their conference - courageous decision taking was never his style.

It was probably the right decision. The polling wasn't looking too good and it may have been another 'snap' election disaster like May's.

Brown's mistake was to let aides leak to press that discussions were underway.

Integrity, empathy, authenticity – what does Britain want in a leader?

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/02/what-does-britain-want-in-leader-integrity-empathy-authenticity

surbiton said:

SouthamObserver said:

Here's a fun fact: the editor of the Today programme is Sarah sands, who was editor of the Evening Standard when it backed Boris Johnson and Zac Goldsmith for London mayor. Of course, both were also prominent Leave advocates.

BBC News have always been full of Tories.

True Laura Kuenssberg and Nick Robinson hardly sing keep the red flag flying with gusto.

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I don't agree that Andrew Neil should be sacked. I do think that he has massively overstepped the boundary that any competent journalist should hold themselves to when considering Brexit, acting as a cheerleader rather than a seeker of truth. He's been doing the job long enough to know that.

And no, I don't think any of those TV journalists pinpointed as Remainers have behaved anywhere near as badly.

In that case you are blind and deaf. The cheerleading for Remain and against Brexit has been massive amongst TV and radio journalists. They have abandoned all semblance of neutrality and it is only because your share their views that you don't see it.

You're mistaking cheerleading with asking pertinent questions.

No exactly the opposite. It is Neil who asks the pertinent and difficult questions which is why the Remaniacs hate him. The rest of the media just seem to revel in the idea that Brexit will be a failure.

One can hardly forget the tears in the eyes of Ian King the evening after the Brexit result was announced. And of course in Faisal Islam, Jon Snow, Adam Boulton and Scumbag James O'Brien you have avowed Remainers who are open in their dismay at the results of the referendum.

It is a shame that the very left wing but pro-Brexit Paul Mason left the BBC. His arguments were balanced and grounded in strong left wing politics as opposed to the right wing anti-immigrant form of Euroscepticism that dominates the Gpvernment at the moment.

rottenborough said:

Robert Kennedy's grandson - Joe Kennedy III - tears into GOP on healthcare

Too young for 2020?

His feeling is real. His delivery is poor. He is nervous. He can learn.

Richard_Tyndall said:

No exactly the opposite. It is Neil who asks the pertinent and difficult questions

Having been shown to be completely wrong on "just a FTA", he is now determined to be wrong on Single Market as well

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/904319606457815041

Fine. Then they won't expect us to pay for it either:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-influence-theresa-may-refugee-migration-crisis-eu-paris-macron-a7924671.html

NickPalmer said:

chrisoxon said:

Yet some think Labour could become the party of Remain and would be able to hold on the kippers who returned home. Corbyn did incredibly well by building a broad coalition, offering to be all things to all people - it's not sustainable...

Labour's centre of gravity is to accept Brexit but aim for close trading relations for the time it takes for alternatives to be thoroughly explored. That leaves wriggle room for people to hope it might be forever, or quite short, but it's quite difficult to argue against ("You don't want to explore alternatives? Or you favour dashing out before we've explored them?").

I don't think one can reasonably say that Corbyn is all things to all people - the Tory assumption that most people would hate his message turned out to be false, but his socialism is not in doubt, including less popular things like enthusiasm for multiculturalism. Most people accept a degree of difference if they think you're broadly on their side.

It might not be "all people" but support is a mile wide and inch deep - how can that ever be sustainable? How can former kippers and young euro federalists both end up happy?

It has echoes of triangulation, except it's based on telling one corner of the triangle to f*** off. Triangulation only works from the centre and if you pay attention to all three corners.

surbiton said:

Recidivist said:

I have just watched the Kier Starmer interview on Marr. Actually I think Labour's new policy pretty much hits the sweet spot. It means we can transition away from the EU if we want to, but leaves open the possibility of re-joining relatively quickly. It also gives the Conservatives a real headache. They now can't ratchet back on their hardline position without appearing to be adopting Labour's policy. But it leaves individual backbenches able to switch to supporting the opposition without appearing to violate Brexit as defined by the referendum question. Pretty neat work.

Starmer is the best shadow spokesperson by miles.

They really are screwed then as he is a complete ignorant tosser

Richard_Tyndall said:

Note he says 'de facto'.

And he is still wrong

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

GIN1138 said:

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/904294403820314624

I thought AN had retired?

GIN, the greedy useless annoying smug halfwitted git will need to be shoved out. We can but hope he gets dumped soon. Afternoon by the way.

Bit behind the news there Malc - the voters of Gordon did the job in June!

You are a wag

Richard_Tyndall said:

surbiton said:

Recidivist said:

I have just watched the Kier Starmer interview on Marr. Actually I think Labour's new policy pretty much hits the sweet spot. It means we can transition away from the EU if we want to, but leaves open the possibility of re-joining relatively quickly. It also gives the Conservatives a real headache. They now can't ratchet back on their hardline position without appearing to be adopting Labour's policy. But it leaves individual backbenches able to switch to supporting the opposition without appearing to violate Brexit as defined by the referendum question. Pretty neat work.

Starmer is the best shadow spokesperson by miles.

They really are screwed then as he is a complete ignorant tosser

You mean you disagree with the former DPP?

felix said:

surbiton said:

Recidivist said:

I have just watched the Kier Starmer interview on Marr. Actually I think Labour's new policy pretty much hits the sweet spot. It means we can transition away from the EU if we want to, but leaves open the possibility of re-joining relatively quickly. It also gives the Conservatives a real headache. They now can't ratchet back on their hardline position without appearing to be adopting Labour's policy. But it leaves individual backbenches able to switch to supporting the opposition without appearing to violate Brexit as defined by the referendum question. Pretty neat work.

Starmer is the best shadow spokesperson by miles.

Indeed - but it the rest are not even 6th form debating standard.

On current showing, the Cabinet does not even get to secondary school.

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

Scott_P said:

HYUFD said:

Andrew Neil is by far the best politics presenter on the TV today, this is a ridiculous tweet

He got badly pwned on FTA

https://twitter.com/profchalmers/status/904287398401626113

Is the UK seeking single market membership, no, so anything else will be a FTA of some form

The UK is seeking an agreement that goes beyond trade, so clearly what is finally agreed will not be an FTA.

At most it will be Canada+ or FTA+ not full membership of the Single Market or Customs Union and even that will likely take years after Brexit to negotiate

The final agreement will encompass a number of non-trade-related aspects. It will be much more complex and wide-ranging than Canada's FTA, reflecting the level of integration there is between the UK and the EU27 in a wide variety of areas that Canada's deal does not go anywhere near, and which the UK would like to ensure continues uninterrupted.

chrisoxon said:

It might not be "all people" but support is a mile wide and inch deep - how can that ever be sustainable? How can former kippers and young euro federalists both end up happy?

It has echoes of triangulation, except it's based on telling one corner of the triangle to f*** off. Triangulation only works from the centre and if you pay attention to all three corners.

It's a mile deep in some parts of the triangle - I know lots of people who feel thqat Corbyn is the politician they've been waiting for most of their lives. I agree it's an inch deep in other parts. But frankly 'twas ever thus - the unusual thing at the moment is the genuine enthusiasm in some sectors, normlly people just say wearily "They're all the same, I'll have to choose the least bad".

Scott_P said:

619 said:

All things which Corbyn has

Integrity and authenticity...

It's not like he would misrepresent his position on Trident or single market membership for votes.

Oh, wait...

Or not being able to get a seat on a ram packed trains...or the number of poor students going to uni...or paying off kids student loans....or his conversations with people about being PM in 6 months.

Scott_P said:

619 said:

All things which Corbyn has

Integrity and authenticity...

It's not like he would misrepresent his position on Trident or single market membership for votes.

Oh, wait...

On these he deviates from Labour policy, but acts with collective responsibility along the party line.

@HYFUD seems convinced that the Tories just need "one more heave" minus the dementia tax, but I think he is wrong. Corbynis a much more convincing man of the people, for all his eccentricity.

It is about branding, and Corbyn is building a brand that people like to be associated with, while Starmer has come up with a Brexit position that everyone can live with and makes for a conference at ease with itself for the first time in years.

Toxic Theresa and her swivel eyed loons are in stark contrast, and I am sure Theresa will manage her conference with her characteristic empathy and deftness. Popcorn time!

rottenborough said:

Robert Kennedy's grandson - Joe Kennedy III - tears into GOP on healthcare.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs0gcpFdH3c

Too young for 2020?

He needs to become a Senator first, 2024 is more likely if Trump is re elected

CarlottaVance said:

619 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Integrity, empathy, authenticity – what does Britain want in a leader?

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/02/what-does-britain-want-in-leader-integrity-empathy-authenticity

All things which Corbyn has

She is also ahead on “taking tough decisions even if they are unpopular”, while Corbyn wins on “empathy measures” such as “understands people like me”.

"Taking tough decisions even if unpopular" is something that voters like in theory, but rarely in practice. As soon as that tough, but unpopular, policy adversely impacts them then they scream blue murder.

rottenborough said:

Robert Kennedy's grandson - Joe Kennedy III - tears into GOP on healthcare.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs0gcpFdH3c

Too young for 2020?

I thought we were told last year how things would go:

Firstly Hilary, then Michelle, followed by Chelsea and then the Obama girls.

Or is the Democratic nomination no longer to be passed around the female members of the Clinton and Obama families ?

foxinsoxuk said:

Scott_P said:

619 said:

All things which Corbyn has

Integrity and authenticity...

It's not like he would misrepresent his position on Trident or single market membership for votes.

Oh, wait...

Toxic Theresa

CarlottaVance said:

619 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Integrity, empathy, authenticity – what does Britain want in a leader?

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/02/what-does-britain-want-in-leader-integrity-empathy-authenticity

All things which Corbyn has

With this in mind, despite her declining reputation, many voters still believed that May would outperform Corbyn as prime minister. She leads in a series of key policy areas: EU negotiations, national security, immigration, the economy. She is also ahead on “taking tough decisions even if they are unpopular”, while Corbyn wins on “empathy measures” such as “understands people like me”.

rottenborough said:

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

another_richard said:

HYUFD said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Housing, NHS, student fees and young people must be the conservatives top priority together with dealing with the fat cats, both in the public and private sectors, to achieve the centre ground and win in 2022

Housing - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
NHS - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Student fees - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Young people - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne
Fatcats - situation made worse by Cameron and Osborne

You were warned, repeatedly.

Yet Conservative supporters here ra-ra-raad as Cameron and Osborne shifted the Conservatives from promoting aspiration to defending privilege.

It is now no surprise that the Tory who polls worst against Corbyn (according to last month's Survation), Hammond, is also the senior Tory most closely backed by Osborne. Apart from his inheritance tax cut there isn't much Osborne was promoting Corbyn could not capitalise on in June 2017

The robbing of the young
The funding of vanity projects while public services were cut
The trashing of "we're all in this together"
The doom and disaster predictions which were shown to be false

Now if you look at the mentality behind Osborne's policies they make sense on a short term tactical basis - old people vote and the young don't, people like their houses to rise in value, keep people spending on consumer tat and foreign holidays.

But in a longer term strategic sense they're disastrous for the Conservatives and not good for the country.

To a large extent true, though to be fair to him Osborne's inheritance tax cut was the most popular policy the Tories have had for years and forced Brown to abandon his plans for a general election in 2007

Did I ever mention that I suggested on ConHome that the IHT threshold should be raised to £1m before Osborne did so.

In any case Brown had already lost his bottle irrespective of anything the Conservatives did at their conference - courageous decision taking was never his style.

It was probably the right decision. The polling wasn't looking too good and it may have been another 'snap' election disaster like May's.

Brown's mistake was to let aides leak to press that discussions were underway.

The Labour lead in the summer of 2007 was utterly vacuous 'not Flash, just Gordon', 'look at Gordon he's flying in a helicopter with a biggles helmet on' etc

It was an early example of the subsequent surges in support of Clegg, May and Corbyn.

foxinsoxuk said:

Scott_P said:

619 said:

All things which Corbyn has

Integrity and authenticity...

It's not like he would misrepresent his position on Trident or single market membership for votes.

Oh, wait...

On these he deviates from Labour policy, but acts with collective responsibility along the party line.

@HYFUD seems convinced that the Tories just need "one more heave" minus the dementia tax, but I think he is wrong. Corbynis a much more convincing man of the people, for all his eccentricity.

It is about branding, and Corbyn is building a brand that people like to be associated with, while Starmer has come up with a Brexit position that everyone can live with and makes for a conference at ease with itself for the first time in years.

Toxic Theresa and her swivel eyed loons are in stark contrast, and I am sure Theresa will manage her conference with her characteristic empathy and deftness. Popcorn time!

Corbyn still has a bet negative rating and the Tories won their highest voteshare since 1992 in part due to opposition to him.

The biggest movement from Tory to Labour the entire campaign came over the dementia tax, not Brexit. Of course Corbyn had neutralised Brexit for Labour Leave voters anyway by promising to take the UK out of the single market to end free movement after Brexit in 2019, a position he is now rowing back from with Starmer's commitment of a 4 year+ transition period

another_richard said:

rottenborough said:

Robert Kennedy's grandson - Joe Kennedy III - tears into GOP on healthcare.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs0gcpFdH3c

Too young for 2020?

I thought we were told last year how things would go:

Firstly Hilary, then Michelle, followed by Chelsea and then the Obama girls.

Or is the Democratic nomination no longer to be passed around the female members of the Clinton and Obama families ?

The male Kennedys are now back in the frame too

Dura_Ace said:

Who would the Brexit negotiation dream team be if we weren't stuck with DD who looks like a half pissed pub landlord trying to do his VAT return? I reckon Brown (autistic savant who revels in this type of boring detail as does a swine in its own make) and Mandelson (scheming sociopath who knows one end of Avenue Louise from the other) would have been good.

Starmer and Mandleson would do a sterling job.

Mind you, it would be fairly hard to do less well than the current muppets.

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

Scott_P said:

HYUFD said:

Andrew Neil is by far the best politics presenter on the TV today, this is a ridiculous tweet

He got badly pwned on FTA

https://twitter.com/profchalmers/status/904287398401626113

Is the UK seeking single market membership, no, so anything else will be a FTA of some form

The UK is seeking an agreement that goes beyond trade, so clearly what is finally agreed will not be an FTA.

At most it will be Canada+ or FTA+ not full membership of the Single Market or Customs Union and even that will likely take years after Brexit to negotiate

The final agreement will encompass a number of non-trade-related aspects. It will be much more complex and wide-ranging than Canada's FTA, reflecting the level of integration there is between the UK and the EU27 in a wide variety of areas that Canada's deal does not go anywhere near, and which the UK would like to ensure continues uninterrupted.

Given Canada's FTA took 7 years to negotiate if this is even more complicated there is no chance of a FTA+ deal with the EU until 2026.

By then even if Corbyn loses a general election the year after Brexit in 2020 a more moderate Labour leader like Chuka Umunna may have replaced him by then and won the 2025 general election on a platform of returning to the single market and restoring free movement, making a FTA+ agreement with the EU by then irrelevant

Without intending to say whether or not a Canada type FTA would be the way to go, it is worth pointing out that one of the main hangups with such agreements are the aligning of standards. Given we already have our standards aligned with the EU there is no reason at all to expect such a lengthy FTA agreement time.

foxinsoxuk said:

Dura_Ace said:

Who would the Brexit negotiation dream team be if we weren't stuck with DD who looks like a half pissed pub landlord trying to do his VAT return? I reckon Brown (autistic savant who revels in this type of boring detail as does a swine in its own make) and Mandelson (scheming sociopath who knows one end of Avenue Louise from the other) would have been good.

Starmer and Mandleson would do a sterling job.

Mind you, it would be fairly hard to do less well than the current muppets.

Starmer's position is we should stay permanently in the Single Market and Customs Union but be able to control EU migration and make our own trade deals. It is a position borne out of utter ignorance. Either that or it is completely dishonest. Take your pick because those are the only two choices.

foxinsoxuk said:

another_richard said:

rottenborough said:

Robert Kennedy's grandson - Joe Kennedy III - tears into GOP on healthcare.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs0gcpFdH3c

Too young for 2020?

I thought we were told last year how things would go:

Firstly Hilary, then Michelle, followed by Chelsea and then the Obama girls.

Or is the Democratic nomination no longer to be passed around the female members of the Clinton and Obama families ?

Though we also hear of Ivanka and various little Bushes too.

What is it with the Septics and their obsession with familial heads of state?

Jeb's son George P Bush is also likely to run for Texas Governor in due course, he is currently Land Commissioner

Richard_Tyndall said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

Scott_P said:

HYUFD said:

Andrew Neil is by far the best politics presenter on the TV today, this is a ridiculous tweet

He got badly pwned on FTA

https://twitter.com/profchalmers/status/904287398401626113

Is the UK seeking single market membership, no, so anything else will be a FTA of some form

The UK is seeking an agreement that goes beyond trade, so clearly what is finally agreed will not be an FTA.

At most it will be Canada+ or FTA+ not full membership of the Single Market or Customs Union and even that will likely take years after Brexit to negotiate

The final agreement will encompass a number of non-trade-related aspects. It will be much more complex and wide-ranging than Canada's FTA, reflecting the level of integration there is between the UK and the EU27 in a wide variety of areas that Canada's deal does not go anywhere near, and which the UK would like to ensure continues uninterrupted.

Given Canada's FTA took 7 years to negotiate if this is even more complicated there is no chance of a FTA+ deal with the EU until 2026.

By then even if Corbyn loses a general election the year after Brexit in 2020 a more moderate Labour leader like Chuka Umunna may have replaced him by then and won the 2025 general election on a platform of returning to the single market and restoring free movement, making a FTA+ agreement with the EU by then irrelevant

Without intending to say whether or not a Canada type FTA would be the way to go, it is worth pointing out that one of the main hangups with such agreements are the aligning of standards. Given we already have our standards aligned with the EU there is no reason at all to expect such a lengthy FTA agreement time.

Perhaps but the EU will likely do it as slowly as possible and not agree any FTA unless satisfied with the UK' s Brexit exit fee